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sonicsidewinder
23rd Nov 2010, 16:29
This is a little query that has bubbled up in my mind over the last few years, involving certain games.

I played Fallout 3 first on xbox. Game was good enough but that aint the point, it's the controll system.

I re-purchased the game for PC and was geared up for a fresh playthrough with full mod-potential. What i couldnt get my head around was the keyboard controlls for the game. Not that they're bad; more like they just didn't feel like you were in 'full controll'.

I've only started this thread cus i recently began New Vegas and it's pretty much the same deal.

With fallout3 PC, I kinda feel stuck between a rock and a hard place in a 'controll' perspective. Using Keyboard & mouse, you get hell better aiming controll, but with the Pad, you get a much more fluid movement controll.

The keyboard only allows for run, walk and crouch-walk speed. When using a pad you get all of that and everything in between. I prefer to play stealth so this makes it much more of a problem to me.

Am i going to be seen much more easily while using keyboard? Cus i can't move slower than the default 'walk' or 'crouch-walk' speed? Maybe i better plug in the pad...oh no...now i got sucky aim. Kinda makes you rely more on the vats system too, so what if you didnt roll high Agility?

From a roleplaying perspective as well, (i like to look at my character walk cool in third person) using the pad you can see the avatar move at all speeds.

Some people may find it a bit of a pointless nit-pick, but to some there may be an actuall issue in these words. This can relate to Human revolution as well. Movement speed in first person - Move too fast and you are heard, you cant move slower because of dictated movement speed. And even more so, the movement speed of jensen in third person while hugging a wall - I dont want him to feel robotic (haa haa, yes he has robot arms) in his movements, he should move fluidly at your discression. So again, there will be the Pad issue (cus you know it will support the xbox pad)

Keyboard and Mouse - dictated movement speeds which i hate. Unbeaten looking controlls.
Gamepad - Fluid movement controll, sucky aiming (depending on if it's being made with the pad in mind i.e Gears.)

Thinking about it, it all depends on the game. Abolutely no problem with Unreal Tournament, cus its all fast paced, No problem with Deus Ex either.
But i did have a problem with Fallout 3 and Dead Space using keyboard...but i wish it didn't.

Like i said, rock and a god-damn hard place.

Fox89
23rd Nov 2010, 16:35
You are absolutely right. I was having this discussion with a friend of mine a few days ago actually. The trouble with keyboard keys are that they are always going to be a 'toggle'. One possible solution we came up with would be to have a Wii Nunchuck-type device for use with your left hand. But then you don't have easy access to all the keys.

Perhaps a better idea would just be to build in an analog stick on the keyboard, perhaps just to the left of the 'tab' key. After all, with an analog stick you wouldn't have any need for WASD, and should still be able to use the rest of the keys with ease.

puzl
23rd Nov 2010, 16:43
It's not so much an issue though, especially in FO3 where you have pre-defined run/walk/crouch speeds anyway. A keyboard key followed by the movement key gives you the same effect as you would pushing the analogue stick. Some would say its more accurate anyway, since you know you're aren't going to accidentally twitch your thumb and go from a walk-to-run motion, just as you're about to melee from behind ;)

Unless the game is designed specifically for *many* degrees of movement speed via analogue control, then it's not worth worrying about.

Fox89
23rd Nov 2010, 16:47
Unless the game is designed specifically for *many* degrees of movement speed via analogue control, then it's not worth worrying about.

This is true, I sometimes forget that games on the consoles usually still only have two speeds of movement. The better directional control would be a plus though, with an analog stick you have 360 degrees (without changing your aim), whilst on a keyboard you have 8 directions.

Irate_Iguana
23rd Nov 2010, 17:03
SC gave the player the option to use the mouse wheel to change Sam's speed. Worked nicely. I wouldn't mind seeing that return.

Coyotegrey
23rd Nov 2010, 17:07
I'm looking into getting a hybrid input device for these situations. Mouse in the right and an analog stick in the....er...I mean...well, you get the idea. I know these exist, and I'd link one right now, but I'm eating.

Anasumtj
23rd Nov 2010, 17:11
I don't know why somebody hasn't made a pressure-sensitive keyboard for just this reason. Wanna creep around? Press the arrow keys gently. Want to sprint? USE THE FORCE OF MOTHER******* GOD ON 'EM.

Splinter Cell's method was nifty, but given the tight focus on stealth in that series I think the same feature could be a hamper in other games. I could honestly never use the mousewheel for anything other than weapon scrolling.

Irate_Iguana
23rd Nov 2010, 17:13
I could honestly never use the mousewheel for anything other than weapon scrolling.

I never use the wheel for weapon scrolling. I hate the fact that I can't reach my chosen weapon instantly. I always use the number keys for that. I even remap those to make sure my favorites are on 1-5 and the least used o 6-0.

Fluffis
23rd Nov 2010, 17:19
I never use the wheel for weapon scrolling. I hate the fact that I can't reach my chosen weapon instantly. I always use the number keys for that. I even remap those to make sure my favorites are on 1-5 and the least used o 6-0.

The same for me. I loved the SC way of dealing with movement speed. It was such an elegant solution.

sonicsidewinder
23rd Nov 2010, 17:36
It's not so much an issue though, especially in FO3 where you have pre-defined run/walk/crouch speeds anyway. A keyboard key followed by the movement key gives you the same effect as you would pushing the analogue stick. Some would say its more accurate anyway, since you know you're aren't going to accidentally twitch your thumb and go from a walk-to-run motion, just as you're about to melee from behind ;)

Unless the game is designed specifically for *many* degrees of movement speed via analogue control, then it's not worth worrying about.

I can understand that. They give you all the possible movements 'you need'. That's all very well and good and you can play the game with no problems.

The issue i think is more being immersed in the 'fantasy' of the game. Any game. No matter what controll input you use, you feel some kind of restriction.
Havn't you ever found it annoying? A good example is half life. Hold down shift and you're walking. No problem? Not all the time.
When you have to follow around an npc it got on my nerves a little, cus the npc's walk slower than Gordon's default walk-movement speed.

I mentioned fallout more to do with game mechanics. Even with oblivion, one of the 'stealth modifiers' in the game is your movement speed. The fact that there are dictated movement speeds in theory gives you a negetive stealth score without it being your fault. You can move slower with analogue giving you a less negetive.
This shows that the issue can be both affect the player (in a roleplaying sense) and the actuall mechanics of the game, if you're willing to read into it that much. I find the fallout point more severe.

Stealth skill 1d20 + 30 skill points - 20 keyboard walk speed = 11 to 30 points!

Stealth skill 1d20 + 30 skill points - 5 anologue super slow movement = 26 to 50 points!

(pardon my noobish d&d metaphor. I don't play d&d...)

Anasumtj
23rd Nov 2010, 17:42
I never use the wheel for weapon scrolling. I hate the fact that I can't reach my chosen weapon instantly. I always use the number keys for that. I even remap those to make sure my favorites are on 1-5 and the least used o 6-0.

I can always feel the "clicks" using the mousewheel, so my preferred weapon is always just one moment away once I've gotten used to the game's arsenal.

Beyond that, most of time I'm just quickswapping between my current and last used weapon.

nomotog
23rd Nov 2010, 17:57
Maybe you can try using a joystick?

jkruse
23rd Nov 2010, 22:10
...I mentioned fallout more to do with game mechanics. Even with oblivion, one of the 'stealth modifiers' in the game is your movement speed. The fact that there are dictated movement speeds in theory gives you a negetive stealth score without it being your fault. You can move slower with analogue giving you a less negetive.
This shows that the issue can be both affect the player (in a roleplaying sense) and the actuall mechanics of the game, if you're willing to read into it that much. I find the fallout point more severe.

Stealth skill 1d20 + 30 skill points - 20 keyboard walk speed = 11 to 30 points!

Stealth skill 1d20 + 30 skill points - 5 anologue super slow movement = 26 to 50 points!

(pardon my noobish d&d metaphor. I don't play d&d...)

Fallout and Oblivion don't quite work like that, they only detect whether you are 'running' while sneaking or 'walking' while sneaking. There is no degree of speed in the equation, just one or the other.

sonicsidewinder
24th Nov 2010, 00:21
Fallout and Oblivion don't quite work like that, they only detect whether you are 'running' while sneaking or 'walking' while sneaking. There is no degree of speed in the equation, just one or the other.

Thanks jkruse, tbh that was really all i wanted to know haha. Kinda evolved into it's own issue. Who needs fallout forums when you got this place.

cheeres man truthfully.

K^2
24th Nov 2010, 00:28
Fallout and Oblivion don't quite work like that, they only detect whether you are 'running' while sneaking or 'walking' while sneaking. There is no degree of speed in the equation, just one or the other.
Vegas does take it into consideration. I had a number of places where if I tried to creep at "run" speed, I'd get detected, but if I hit "walk", I'd sneak by just fine. Made absolutely sure by F9-ing a few times.

jkruse
24th Nov 2010, 01:58
Vegas does take it into consideration. I had a number of places where if I tried to creep at "run" speed, I'd get detected, but if I hit "walk", I'd sneak by just fine. Made absolutely sure by F9-ing a few times.

That's what I meant, it's either walk or run, not a variable. Just two flat numbers.

Wait, no, okay, to be clearer, there are 4 speeds in the game, walk, run, sneaking walk, and sneaking run.

K^2
24th Nov 2010, 02:20
Oh, I see what you meant. I thought you meant it didn't matter whether you sneak-run or sneak-walk.

We used to throw around some game concepts with a friend of mine. The idea we came up with for variable walking speed is to use the mouse wheel. The keyboard is still a boolean walk/don't walk, but you can use the mouse wheel to adjust the speed from creeping to full run. It lets you switch from one to another almost instantly, and still allows a great degree of variation in between. That seems like it would work perfectly for a stealth-oriented game.

Fluffis
24th Nov 2010, 05:58
Oh, I see what you meant. I thought you meant it didn't matter whether you sneak-run or sneak-walk.

We used to throw around some game concepts with a friend of mine. The idea we came up with for variable walking speed is to use the mouse wheel. The keyboard is still a boolean walk/don't walk, but you can use the mouse wheel to adjust the speed from creeping to full run. It lets you switch from one to another almost instantly, and still allows a great degree of variation in between. That seems like it would work perfectly for a stealth-oriented game.

It does work perfectly for a stealth-oriented game. :D

K^2
24th Nov 2010, 09:53
Ok, you'll have to help me here. Do you mean some specific game that already uses this system?

Irate_Iguana
24th Nov 2010, 12:28
Ok, you'll have to help me here. Do you mean some specific game that already uses this system?

Splinter Cell and its (I believe) five levels of speed toggled by the mouse wheel. Fluffis and myself talked about it a few posts ago.

Fluffis
24th Nov 2010, 14:31
Ok, you'll have to help me here. Do you mean some specific game that already uses this system?

What the lizard said. That's the reason for my grin there.

Itkovian
24th Nov 2010, 20:19
While I admit the binary nature of keyboard commands is something of a flaw, quite frankly it's never something I noticed... whereas when I play a console shooter, I always notice the lack of aiming precision.

Essentially, precise aiming is far more important in shooting games than precise movement speed. Have a couple of movement speeds is rarely if ever an obstacle, whereas precise aiming is required in any good shooter. That's why we see aim assist in console games.

Thank you.

Itkovian

K^2
24th Nov 2010, 22:08
Splinter Cell and its (I believe) five levels of speed toggled by the mouse wheel. Fluffis and myself talked about it a few posts ago.
Hm. I was thinking slightly more levels, but yeah. I never played any of the Splinter Cell games. Is there a particular game in the series you'd recommend to try?

7h30n
24th Nov 2010, 22:38
I always like to start with first title. Especially because of the wow factor.

So, I recommend you the first. It had some memorable levels and presentation.
If you just want to experience the pinnacle of the series, play Chaos Theory.
If you dislike hardcore stealthing then go for ConViction which is TPS.

P.S. The first game is the best for me. I was just amazed but how well it was done, levels, voice acting and dialogues were awesome. Definitely the best sneaker game I've ever played. (oh and please don't compare MGS to SC. I like both, but they are a lot different)

Pinky_Powers
24th Nov 2010, 22:38
Hm. I was thinking slightly more levels, but yeah. I never played any of the Splinter Cell games. Is there a particular game in the series you'd recommend to try?

The best of them is Chaos Theory. But 1 and 2 are great as well. Unlike what most will tell you, 4 is actually a solid game... apart from the bugs plaguing the PC version.

Conviction is a disgrace to the series, but not a bad game at all. If you're hurting for a stealth game and have played all the other Splinter Cells to death, then it's worth exploring. But only at the utmost end of need.

Rindill the Red
25th Nov 2010, 00:21
The best of them is Chaos Theory. But 1 and 2 are great as well. Unlike what most will tell you, 4 is actually a solid game... apart from the bugs plaguing the PC version.

Conviction is a disgrace to the series, but not a bad game at all. If you're hurting for a stealth game and have played all the other Splinter Cells to death, then it's worth exploring. But only at the utmost end of need.

Conviction is a third person action game... it's not a stealth game and it's not meant to be a stealth game... the closest it comes to anything else on the market is that new James Bond game.

Have you ever seen an episode of 24?

Basically, they turned Fisher into a Jack Bauer wannabe...

Seriously, if they just changed the name of the game to 24 and replaced Fisher with Jack Bauer, it would have worked flawlessly as a 24 video game.

Pinky_Powers
25th Nov 2010, 00:33
Except... I was able to play through 90% of Conviction stealthily. I suppose it would have been easier to play it like an action game. But there was enough cover, shadows and other things that allowed you to go at it in real stealth.

Obviously, it doesn't compare well to other Splinter Cell games. I believe I used the word "disgrace" aptly enough.

sonicsidewinder
25th Nov 2010, 00:50
SC is a classic series. CT was genius, and the spys vs mercs was an important game in my xbl hay-day; When xbl was actually a cool niché to be a part of.

Conviction looked okay during the run-up. I liked the idea. But then it released.

5 hours campaign? Overwhelming simplification. No Spys vs Mercs? Sam Fisher looking younger and moving like Jack Carver in Instincts mode? Wtf!

I spit on conviction, ever since i saw that Iraq section. I'd only think of buying it if it was an extreem steam deal.

Even the old cancelled 2007 Conviction looked to be more interesting.

Rindill the Red
25th Nov 2010, 00:52
SC is a classic series. CT was genius, and the spys vs mercs was an important game in my xbl hay-day; When xbl was actually a cool niché to be a part of.

Conviction looked okay during the run-up. I liked the idea. But then it released.

5 hours campaign? Overwhelming simplification. No Spys vs Mercs? Sam Fisher looking younger and moving like Jack Carver in Instincts mode? Wtf!

I spit on conviction, ever since i saw that Iraq section. I'd only think of buying it if it was an extreem steam deal.

Even the old cancelled 2007 Conviction looked to be more interesting.

Honestly, I would have preferred the 2007 conviction to the crap they put out instead.

Pinky_Powers
25th Nov 2010, 01:20
Yeah, the original ideas for Conviction seemed quite interesting.

BoerBoel
27th Nov 2010, 17:42
Hallo Guys, can any1 tell me how i can change the control to my Joystick type
Logitech Attack 3 in the Battlestation Midway game, i can not find a way how to do it :mad2:

thedosbox
27th Nov 2010, 18:30
Hallo Guys, can any1 tell me how i can change the control to my Joystick type
Logitech Attack 3 in the Battlestation Midway game, i can not find a way how to do it :mad2:

Posting in the right forum (http://battlestations.net/en-UK/forum) would be a good start.