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Dekieon
18th Nov 2010, 15:18
Sorry if this has been asked before, but my searches turned up no answer, and neither did the sticked FAQ.

For me, one of the important things about this type of game is the ability to mod it, create new levels, weapons and other stuff. Will we have an editor with the game to do this....or at least have an SDK released online that we can download for it?

WildcatPhoenix
18th Nov 2010, 15:27
The current outlook is that the game will not initially ship with any kind of mod tools or SDK. A couple of developers have mentioned that EM will "look into it after the game releases," but the general consensus says it's unlikely.

Which is devastating news for me and those of us who are still out there modding the old Unreal 1 & 2 engines...but I'm going to cling to at least a little hope that DXHR will sell extremely well on PC and invite lots of modding interest.

Dr_Bob
18th Nov 2010, 15:47
The current outlook is that the game will not initially ship with any kind of mod tools or SDK. A couple of developers have mentioned that EM will "look into it after the game releases," but the general consensus says it's unlikely.

Which is devastating news for me and those of us who are still out there modding the old Unreal 1 & 2 engines...but I'm going to cling to at least a little hope that DXHR will sell extremely well on PC and invite lots of modding interest.

Hopefully.

Dekieon
18th Nov 2010, 15:49
Ouch that is very sad new indeed. For me, modding is half the value of the game, and the larger component of the fun I have with a game. Not to mention that modding is what keeps replay value going on pc games.

I do not like the statement that they will look into it after the game is released...I am pretty sure that is just another way of saying...once we have all your money, then we will break the bad news to you.

I guess I will have to wait and see about the SDK being released, because I am not sure if I want to pay money for this game when half the reason I want it, might not even be exist.

WildcatPhoenix
18th Nov 2010, 16:10
I guess I will have to wait and see about the SDK being released, because I am not sure if I want to pay money for this game when half the reason I want it, might not even be exist.

Yep, that pretty much sums up my current stance as well. I think EM would be crazy not to open up the door to user creativity (on more than one occasion I've purchased a game not for the core game itself, but rather so I could play a user-created mod...*Half-Life, I'm looking at you*).

Daracus
1st Dec 2010, 06:30
Ouch that is very sad new indeed. For me, modding is half the value of the game, and the larger component of the fun I have with a game. Not to mention that modding is what keeps replay value going on pc games.

I do not like the statement that they will look into it after the game is released...I am pretty sure that is just another way of saying...once we have all your money, then we will break the bad news to you.

I guess I will have to wait and see about the SDK being released, because I am not sure if I want to pay money for this game when half the reason I want it, might not even be exist.

I absolutely agree. I ask if there is an off chance that anyone from Eidos Montreal is looking at this post/thread to seriously consider releasing a SDK. It allows the community, and EM too an extant, to experiment with an idea that may not necessarily "fit" into the realm of Deus Ex but may add a significantly fun, and appreciated, element to the Deus Ex franchise (especially during inter-title periods).

Just take a look Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas. FNV integrated several user created mods (Weapon Mods Kits and Hunger/Thirst/Sleep mods as "Hardcore" Mode) that were available for the PC version of Fallout 3 and as a result FNV sold 5 million copies in its first few weeks* I understand that Eidos and Square Enix are companies that must make a profit in order to continually supply their fans with titles. Mods allowing for users to experiment with idea that could potentially push sales for the next iteration of the franchise. Especially if those iterations featured mods, as game-play mechanics, from a previous installment. But that can only be done if a SDK is released.

http://kotaku.com/5684440/five-million-fallout-new-vegas

Note *: I'm not saying Obsidian did a "Copy and Paste" job nor am I saying that they didn't add anything at all to New Vegas. I'm just saying that the mod community for Fallout 3 helped push sales of New Vegas.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 06:37
Note *: I'm not saying Obsidian did a "Copy and Paste" job nor am I saying that they didn't add anything at all to New Vegas. I'm just saying that the mod community for Fallout 3 helped push sales of New Vegas.

They also influenced the design of New Vegas. Hardcore Mode was such a popular mod it was included in the main design for New Vegas.

I doubt very much we'll see an SDK unless EM release a multiplayer mode a few months down the line. I can imagine them releasing an SDK at that point but if I had to come down on one side of the fence I'd still guess not.

Jerion
1st Dec 2010, 06:37
One of our more enterprising and long-standing forum members thinks he may be able to create some basic mod tools. There's no confirmation on an SDK from EM.

K^2
1st Dec 2010, 06:56
Modifications to level geometry are definitely a possibility, but without an ability to run custom scripts, it's not going to give you much. If I understand it correctly, things like item and enemy spawns are handled by the scripts. I never found anything that looks like plain-text script in Tomb Raider Underworld, so it's quite possible that scripts are compiled. That would mean that we'd need some sort of a set of assembler/disassembler tools for working with levels.

Nothing impossible, but it's going to be tricky and take some time. Hopefully, there'll be a few more people interested in developing the necessary tools, and the workload can be distributed to make descent tools in good time.

At this point, pretty much the only thing I can guarantee is ability to change textures.

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 07:02
...
At this point, pretty much the only thing I can guarantee is ability to change textures.

Albino Adam here we come!

We all believe in you K^2, you are brilliant man.

Unstoppable
1st Dec 2010, 07:02
Well the good news is that people where able to mod Invisible War which had a very poor engine. With a better engine expect better mods to come with it.

Brockxz
1st Dec 2010, 07:15
Well the good news is that people where able to mod Invisible War which had a very poor engine. With a better engine expect better mods to come with it.

Invisible Wars had the same Unreal engine (don't remember if it was UEv1 or UEv2) with Havok v2.0 just heavily modified by Ion Storm.

Also, most likely to see if we will be able to modify something, we can start to inspect the Tomb Raider Underworld game and see if we can modify that. Also it is known that Deus Ex 3 uses the same engine but also heavily modified so it can be quite different.

Daracus
1st Dec 2010, 08:53
One of our more enterprising and long-standing forum members thinks he may be able to create some basic mod tools. There's no confirmation on an SDK from EM.

I never doubt the ingenuity of the talented mod community. But having a SDK would make it easier for them. And since your an official Eidos moderator I'm hoping whatever pull you may have you might use it to tip in favor of a SDK release.... :hint hint wink wink cough cough:

*slips Jerion a piece of paper that reads "IOU a turkey club sandwich and a Pepsi"*

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 09:04
But if they release an SDK, it will make it easier for those evil hackers to pirate the bonus content. :rolleyes:

motsm
1st Dec 2010, 09:20
An SDK would not only put Human Revolution on my buy list, it would take EM off my stink list.

As far as DLC goes, I would imagine most developers aren't very concerned with users cracking their DLC using the SDK. Rather, modders making their own, and perhaps better DLC for free would be the bigger issue, in my opinion.

3rdmillhouse
1st Dec 2010, 13:23
The current outlook is that the game will not initially ship with any kind of mod tools or SDK. A couple of developers have mentioned that EM will "look into it after the game releases," but the general consensus says it's unlikely.

Which means: "We heard what you said but we'll just pretend we didn't."

WildcatPhoenix
1st Dec 2010, 14:38
Which means: "We heard what you said but we'll just pretend we didn't."

Probably, yep. :hmm:

The SDK is pretty much my last island of hope, at this point. And it's sinking fast...

lithos
1st Dec 2010, 15:25
So, there's no hope for removing the third-person stuff?

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 16:04
All companies need to start doing is... release SDK's and mod support with a built in proprietary framework, wait for some good mods to get created, then co-opt those mods as DLC, paying the creators some of the money.

Mods get paid for doing what they love.

Company gets premium DLC for essentially free (while making money off of it).

Consumer gets premium DLC and gets to make his own mods for free.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
1st Dec 2010, 17:48
Let's play the game first and read the comics before we start getting upset. I mapped for DX1/DXMP for over five years now, I would like the SDK more than anyone, but I'm prepared to right for the right moment and right content.
As you can see, Deus Ex 3 is bringing people out of the woodwork in a way that DX2 didn't and SE announced something, quite frankly enormously exciting, ten more years of Deus Ex. I am happy to wait for the game and it's SDK, whether that is Jerion's genius friend, or EM themselves that produce one.

It's no consolation of course, but DXMP mappers and modders have come together and are currently building 4 maps based on the 360 views offered in the EG gameplay videos. We already have most of the augs as a basis to start on and PEPS weapon will probably the first weapon we release, besides what already exists or needs some modding. This project has support from Eidos and there is discussion about actually incorporating some of the textures and goodies from the actual game, while fans have already created textures and music for us and we expect to see much more. As soon as more levels are revealed fully by EM, we'll be converting those too for DXMP.

If this interests you at all please get on board at our temporary address: http://www.deusexmultiplayer.freeforums.org

Daracus
1st Dec 2010, 18:08
But if they release an SDK, it will make it easier for those evil hackers to pirate the bonus content. :rolleyes:

Absolutely, but no form of copy protection is impervious to hackers. I'm not saying people should pirate, I'm just saying its going to happen.

Here watch this...

Gabe Newell's, Valve's Managing Director, opinion on Piracy (1:03): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLC_zZ5fqFk

His argument is, and I'm paraphrasing, "Good customer service equals sales. Bad customer service equals piracy." And if piracy was going to effect anyone it would affect PC game developers and publishers... say like Valve/Steam ;) So they must doing something right, especially since Steam is dominating the digital market (see link below).

http://kotaku.com/5687187/valve-is-killing-the-pc-market-apparently

Anyway my point is a SDK release can be seen as a form of "good customer service." Especially since mods community tend to help generate sales long after the title is released (Half Life Series, Fallout series, etc.)... And in the youtube video above, Valve essentially turned a market that was primarily viewed as "pirates" into customers... that's gotta say a lot. The goal of publishers should not be to deter customers by limiting them but to increase sales as much as they can by providing customers an incentive to purchase their product. A SDK would go a long way in doing so.

Dead-Eye
1st Dec 2010, 18:21
Basically, they way I see it, is there is no good reason for them not to release an SDK. Deus Ex has one of the largest modding communities on the planet, is EM even aware of this? The only reasons I could see for them not to release an SDK, is that it's technically difficult or EM is just a bunch of greedy punks.

Crane
1st Dec 2010, 19:18
Deus Ex has one of the largest modding communities on the planet

Yes, almost twenty released mods!

Rindill the Red
1st Dec 2010, 20:17
Yes, almost twenty released mods!

And many still in the works... nearing completion.

Daracus
1st Dec 2010, 21:13
Basically, they way I see it, is there is no good reason for them not to release an SDK. Deus Ex has one of the largest modding communities on the planet, is EM even aware of this? The only reasons I could see for them not to release an SDK, is that it's technically difficult or EM is just a bunch of greedy punks.

Good point, Recently two buddies of mine were having a discussion about this... Luke's argument was that devs/pubs no longer release SDKs on the basis the they want to have sole control of any and all "aftermarket" content for that particular title. Essentially their running a monopoly on who provides DLC content and because they are the only one they can... they charge for it...

Dee's counter argument was that Half life series, Fallout series, TES: Oblivion and several other games provided devkits and paid DLC (aka expansion packs) as well. SO its possible to provide devkits and offer "paid DLC" to and have both models work side by side.

I'm still on the fence on which one I'm backing... :confused: Although I want to give Eidos Montreal the benefit of the doubt.

I wouldn't go as far as to say its technically infeasible to release SDK for DXHR... keep in mind with most SDKs your just uploading the one the devs have been using for the last 2 years (plus or minus few things). And if were taking about financial reasons, just release it to 3rd party websites and let have them distribute the SDK for download (it worked for the original Deus Ex).

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 21:14
And many still in the works... nearing completion.

Perhaps so but Crane was right to call out the claim that "Deus Ex has one of the largest modding communities on the planet" because it really does not. In fact the Deux Ex modding community is absolutely minuscule in comparison to the big guns.

pha
1st Dec 2010, 21:40
^

Quality over quantity.

DX has amazing mods like Zodiac and TNM, Bethesda games may have much more mods than DX, but most of them are useless.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 21:48
^

Quality over quantity.

DX has amazing mods like Zodiac and TNM, Bethesda games may have much more mods than DX, but most of them are useless.

Maybe so. I've not tried enough to compare. The point was about the size of the modding community, not the quality. And in that regard Max Payne 2 has more mods released then DX, and Half Life 2 (for example) has over 15 times as many.

K^2
1st Dec 2010, 21:50
So, there's no hope for removing the third-person stuff?
There is, but it will involve hacks.

I'll be writing a custom launcher that gives you a few options, mostly having to do with the way things are rendered. First person view is the highest priority, but it's hard to say how well that will work out. It might also be possible to do some changes to the HUD and to get rid of the filter.

[FGS]Shadowrunner
1st Dec 2010, 22:02
There was a time, a couple of years after IW, when the modding and multiplayer community created acts of piracy in an effort to attract more players, but also sabotage, in an effort to channel them into certain gametypes. Thankfully, that is a thing of the past and while servers/players still remain at lower numbers than 2006, they are increasing and the modding community is as active as ever.

I've just noticed the code Adam punches at 10:18 in the EG Gameplay video. It's probably the first code he uses in the game perhaps, and it's a variation on the Liberty Island first code which is 0451.

Fox89
1st Dec 2010, 22:04
It's probably the first code he uses in the game perhaps

Most likely they just made the code 0451 for the demo, so that all the knowledgeable people in the audience would get a kick out of it :) I'd be very surprised if the code to that door was the first one in the game.