View Full Version : The Tightness of SR2 & Pin the motive on the dark forces donkey

17th Nov 2010, 22:14
SR2 is great for replay because......... wait for it......... there, I'm done with the game. Fast, tight game dense with content and cool stuff. Also thick with accusations. Jeesh they were just accusing each other of things in lieu of small talk in that game. Not all of which can be true. So this last time I pretended it was CSI and picked over the game with a fine toothed comb to try and figure who had motive to bring blight to the land and which way they were leaning for the conclusion.

Raz to Ariel: ... 'Kain's dilemma was engineered to bring the pillars down regardless of the choice he made.'

So, if that's true............
Choice 1: Stay alive. Choose ambition over balance duty.
Result: Pillars explode. (what we've seen.)
Choice 2: Sacrifice. take one for Team Nosgoth.
Result??????: I don't think the pillars explode. I think the last pillar does actually heal just like the other 8 did. This leads to more of a slow waiting game for the barrier to fail. Vampires are gone, and in a strange way vampires ARE the barrier, so in time the barrier erodes since humans 'are not fit to serve'. So in due time the hylden are happy with this. Assuming they're the ones who set Kain up to fail either way, there you go. Hell release is inevitable.

(The demons may be in on this too with their own agenda. It may be that the escape from hell is only possible via hylden working together with demons (to do the possesions, etc.) So the hylden may have had to agree to the demons' demands for freedom as part of the prison break. In that case, the demons may have a different endgame in mind than the squid---different goals for how they want the planet and the pillars to end up. Sometimes, when Dark Forces are spoken of, it might actually refer to schemes of hell which don't even include the Squid!?!?!?)

For example, as Raz nears the pillars he theorizes that Kain's simple ambition couldn't possibly have doomed the pillars and a darker force is at work here. In other words, Who really blew up the pillars?!?! We never find out directly who did it, but Raziel says this during the time when he's fighting lots of ....demons! Not Elder. Demons.

But then how do we explain the Squid tearing down the pillars personally with his tentacles? If he's a fan of a well-regulated world of balanced life and death, then he'd want the pillars restored, in human guardianship with vamps gone. So why is he demolishing them?

SR2 continually hints that Squid & his hunger is responsible for the blight. Which is odd because in the SR future it's like he don't like the dead world we see, so why would he have made it that way? Shouldn't he have foreseen himself not liking the next 2000 years? Doesn't make sense. For a while I was thinking this: Squid wanted to chow down on Nosgoth without the pillars holding him back and limiting his diet, then after a long binge he wanted to restore the pillars so the planet would bounce back like when a buffet resets for the 2nd course, but Kain postponed that reset for so long that EG starved and got desperate enough to risk setting Raziel loose on the world. But if this is what Squid wants, it doesn't make sense that he's actually destroyed the pillars. That makes it look like he don't want no reset for the planet.

(Used to believe the pillars were prison bars locking him in, but that was silly since they're not even a full semi-circle. I suppose it could be a pillar energy field imprisoning him like you experience during Defiance fights..... Then I switched to thinking the ancients juiced him to power the pillars in the first place, leaving him beholden to the structure for as long as it stood, giving Squid motive for property damage. But after closely examining SR2 vids, it's more like he's always been drawn to the pillars like a moth to flame, and then after the vamp curse it's like he's still obsessed with the pillars similar to a recent divorcee. Recently I've liked the idea that pillar-touching is what gives him his Timeline vision & Death powers & his penchant for Conflict.)

The latest "Squid blew up the pillars" theory:
Squid had been trying to bypass the pillars forever to drink the vitality of the planet. But the pillars were like an electric fence. Like a sharp pointy Madonna cone bra preventing EG from accessing the teat of Nosgoth. Then, at the moment Kain decided not to fix things, the electric fence overloaded and shorted out. After that, EG could touch the pillars directly and shove them aside to get at the planet's rich chewy nougat center. And to explain the anti-Kain propaganda throughout the series..... Kain was the scapegoat. By making Kain feel responsible for the corruption, EG stopped any investigation from happening to answer the obvious question of Who's responsible for this? Staying invisible is job #1 for Elder, and by giving the world a scapegoat who was also emperor, people were guaranteed not to start snooping around. Ultimately, it's revealed that Elder artificially timed the explosion of the pillars to make Kain look guilty, or something.

17th Nov 2010, 22:23
I really don't think the Elder God has anything to do with the Pillars coming down. It was the forces of Hash'ak'gik, which are the Hylden and whatever demons are working with them. I also remember the scene where Raziel says that it looks like the Elder God was tearing them down, but we never see any sort of follow up to this. Unfortunetly, the series doesn't answer some questions that really should have been answered. If it was the Elder God who took them down, then it means that all this talk of Kain's decision and everything is wrong, but we never hear anything about the Elder God personally tearing the Pillars down after this, but we do see signs that Kain's refusal did destroy the Pillars and that the forces of Hash'ak'gik were behind it.

30th Nov 2010, 23:09
How many hylden are there in the demon dimension? Possibly millions, each with a nice juicy soul for squiddy to much on. In SR1, Raziel has only just met the EG. If he needed Raziel to do stuff for him, it would only make sense come off as a good guy. Kain is the only thing keeping the hylden from returning to Nosgoth and each vampire is an immortal soul that can never return to the wheel until it is released by someone like Raziel.

The EG may not have torn down the pillars himself, but only gains if the hylden happen to do it for him.

6th Dec 2010, 23:51
I guess the games tried to tell us that "Hylden + EG" was never going to happen, because the hylden were shown as a danger to all life, which would keep them out of EG's graces.

But if squid WAS trying to bring the hylden in to replace the herd he'd lost, that would sure explain why the hylden were allowed to sneak right under EG's nose to perform their attack on the pillars. He let them do it so that he could seize upon those events to rid the world of the apostates, then he'd allow the hylden to flood back in while the pillars were still down, introduce himself to them like a teacher on the first day of school to lay down the law and regulate their behavior so they wouldn't go back to doing whatever ticked him off in the first place, then enjoy their soul buffet.

It's possible that Elder was about to sell humanity out, preferring a hylden world. That'd mean Moebius was about to get betrayed. The quote from him, about the minor inconvenience of escaping Hylden that he'd soon shove back in the cage, made it sound like Moebius thought EG would want that. What if Moe was mistaken, and, As EG was heard saying, timeboy had "lived out his usefulness" because the hylden were about to take humanity's place on the planet? (During the Soul Reaver future, probably.)

7th Dec 2010, 00:46
I think we've been overlooking something though: the hylden's immortality. True, when the barrier is ripped down the Elder God would have a feast from the ensuing war between vampires and hylden, but what then? The vampires used to worship the Elder God (Janos, last of the ancients, still did) and the war between the two races broke out when the hylden figured out the key to immortality. The ancients thought it was blasphemy and went against the wheel of fate, so they picked a fight. That ultimately put the Elder God in a tight spot however, with the hylden banished and the vampires cursed with immortality suddenly his only meals were the humans, and they were being converted at an alarming pace. What's a squid to do?

This is the point that I'm stuck at. I mean he might hope that both races will just kill each other off when the barrier comes down, then he can feast after the fight and hope that the humans will breed like rabbits... That just doesn't seem very well thought out though. We don't know how old he is but we do know that he's been around for the entire span of the series, so I'd think that he would have had time to come up with a better game-plan! Any ideas or spots where I'm incorrect?

8th Dec 2010, 18:59
I don't know where you're incorrect because they never told us what the hylden's crime was. What if you were god and you saw them building that machine intended to wipe out the planet? That'd be reason enough right there to get rid of them. So immortality may have come later instead of being the way they "resisted" the wheel. The hylden sciences may have looked into the mystery of life and death so that they uncovered Elder's ruse. They knew that he was a faker and were about to blab it to everyone with wings. Could be something like that. If that's all it was, they'd start dying again as soon as they returned. Or those same sciences were wiping out disease so they were starting to live forever, not by magic but through a good HMO. Whatever they did, they were somehow threatening EG's status quo, and/or denying EG what he wanted, and I got the feeling EG had said, "Lock it in as my final answer, Regis: Banishment for the Hylden. I'm not changing my mind." So up next for god would have been planetary rebound with humans. Assuming the pillar mess fixed itself after Kain died. If they stayed broken because they'd exploded, problem. Perhaps his more maleable servants were the construction crew who'd get things working agian.