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Rindill the Red
17th Nov 2010, 05:29
Here are ten things that Human Revolution has, ten ways, ten reasons why it is un-faithful to the original. Not all of these may be reason of faith, generally, or in your personal opinion, but I will express mine in some cases. There is also a lot we don’t yet know about the game, and there are many areas where Eidos Montreal could deviate from the Deus Ex formula that haven’t been revealed, as well as unspecified mechanics that may bring DX:HR closer to what made Deus Ex so great.

1. The inclusion of third person game-play: One of the strengths of Deus Ex was its ability to not just engage the player but also put the player in the world it created; it was an immersive sim. The defining characteristics of an immersive sim are (1) immersion in an elaborate and believable game world, (2) simulation of that game world through physics and AI that leads to emergent game-play, and (3) first person perspective so as to truly look through the eyes of the protagonist. Third person game-play changes the relation between the character the player controls, the game world, and the player himself in such a way that it may reduce the cognitive-imaginative experience of being a character in the game-world.

2. Skills and augmentations rolled into one system: In the post-mortem interview, Harvey Smith outlined one of the major flaws of Invisible War, that of “streamlining” the game-play elements of skill and augmentations into one system so that “everything has a unique purpose”. For example, the lung-aug allowed the player to hold his breath longer under water while the swimmer aug allowed him to swim faster. In terms of game-play, both had the same effect, that of allowing the player to traverse long underwater portions without losing health, but in terms of the player’s imaginative involvement in the role-playing aspects of the simulated world, they were very different. In the same way that picking a lock is different than electronically bypassing a system, while both allow the player to circumvent an obstacle, the diversity in mechanics added variety and plausibility to the game world in such a way as to involve the player more in the fantasy of the game-play. It also increased the complexity of the strategy the player could use in upgrading his character (for example, he can make himself a better swimmer to compensate for an un-upgraded lung-aug, allowing him to upgrade other augs while keeping open water paths). A human may have and develop skills and knowledge as well as add technology to his body, Deus Ex mimicked this facet of reality, while Invisible War and soon, DX:HR, will not.

3. Third person cinematic sequences for narrative purposes: Deus Ex had two cut-scenes, one at the beginning of the game, and three (mutually exclusive) at the end of the game, as well as short pull-outs for travelling (during which the player sees a vehicle drive/fly away setting up the skipped parts of the story (travelling)). EM has shown us through the demo that it is not afraid to cut-scene important parts of the storyline mid-game, effectively turning many exciting and immersive game-play opportunities into movies, and players into watchers; reducing again the player’s involvement and immersion in the game-world, and increasing the protagonist’s autonomy from the player.

4. No melee weapons: Deus Ex featured melee weapons, DX:HR will not. Close-combat is an automatic win for Jensen, and carries no risk of failure or player skill. Of note, however, is that take-downs require energy... so if you are out of energy, you better not get near enemies because your arms won't work no more. Whereas in Deus Ex, even after you ran out of all ammo, you could count on pulling out a crowbar and beating your enemies to death Gordon Freeman style, you have no such luxury in DX:HR.

5. Cover system: In Deus Ex, cover meant hiding behind a wall, crouching behind some boxes or running the hell away. DX:HR will feature a snap cover system similar to Rainbow Six: Vegas, with conveniently placed waist high walls and other objects for potentially combat heavy areas or for stealth purposes. If designed improperly, this may lead to the “Mass Effect syndrome” of environment implausibility; an instant immersion-breaker for many players (Jerion assures us that this is not the case). It also simplifies stealth based environment exploration, decreasing risk and tension by allowing "certain-stealth" and implausible safe viewing around corners.

6. Romantic sub/main-plots involving the protagonist and a kidnapped dame: While Deus Ex featured romantic motivation in Gunther’s vehement quest for revenge, the closest it came to strong pre-existing attachments for the protagonist (and player) was JC’s brother Paul: of a filial nature rather than a romantic one. The quality and features of JC’s relationship to Paul was on the surface amicable, but never presumed, allowing the player to define the relationship himself. Paul’s character, values, and personality were explored and well-defined before crucial moments of motivation and choice on the part of the relationship (which was, of note, a very subtle part of “playing the story”). While it remains to be seen if the “ex’s” involvement in the story will be subtle and effective, the mere fact that the game presumes the player’s past romantic interest in this character is troubling for the player’s role-playing assumption of Jensen’s character and emotional engagement and immersion in the story.


7. Streamlined disassembled mechanical design approach: Deus Ex was designed with the experience in mind, as an immersive sim. “Harvey Smith: I want to be able to fully explore and interact with an environment in an as immersive, self-expressive way possible. If something occurs to me in the game world, I want to be empowered to try it. And I want the results of the action, even if they are not always what I expected, to be interesting and plausible.” Rather than designing for player-expression, emergent game-play, and plausible environments, DX:HR development leads have made it abundantly clear that their levels will be based around four pillars: “combat, stealth, social, and hacking.” Whether or not the designers achieve an immersive, engaging, and plausible gestalt experience remains to be seen.

Jerion assures me that it's simply a marketing focus.

So here is an alternate 7.

7. Can't kill children/children don't exist: In DX:HR you won't be able to snipe, execute, slice, bludgeon, blow up, or otherwise harm children. This will create an implausible exception to the simulation and limit the player's freedom to be a sociopath. -OR- Children won't be in the game.

8. Social and hacking mini-games: Deus Ex featured no mini-games. Hacking was as simple as running a program and dialogue managed the occasional choice of response. DX:HR will feature simple hacking and dialogue mini-games. Whether or not these mini-games become repetitive and bland, or enhance the experience remains to be seen. I, personally, am excited about the interpersonal aspect the social mini-game brings to Deus Ex, and believe it will likely open new avenues of expressive fun game-play and create a more reactive realistic game-world.

9. Take-downs: Deus Ex required the player to use melee weapons, guns, or explosives to manually take down enemies in simple direct animations. DX:HR will allow the player to tell Jensen to undertake sometimes complicated set of moves to take down the enemy in third person. Barring the third-person issues which were addressed above, take-downs increase the protagonist’s autonomy and might detach the player from the immersive simulation.

10. Regenerative health + unknown mechanics: While we don’t yet know the specifics of the player damage system they are implementing, we do know that it will be regenerative non-localized health. Deus Ex featured a Fallout-like system that gave localized health to the head, torso, arms, and legs, each of which when badly damaged would affect the player in logical and plausible ways, whether that meant crawling away from a long drop or switching to grenades because you couldn’t aim straight after the enemy shot up your arm. The player could use health packs, an optional augmentation, or bots to heal his body parts. While stealth players may have ended up with a splurge of health packs, combat players needed to learn to carefully manage their healing options. Deus Ex’s system allowed unique situations of adversity to emerge from the environment, mechanics, and player strategy which the player could overcome in intriguing and expressive ways. As part of the role-playing fantasy, this health system helped players connect with the physical body representing them in the game world. DX:HR’s system allows the player to “take cover and try again” with little to no consequence barring death. It subtracts a layer of role-playing fantasy, removes some aspects of long-term planning from the game, and decreases the likelihood of varied intriguing emergent adversity.

11. No lockpicks/multitools: In Deus Ex, some doors were locked mechanically, others electronically with keypads. Both lock-picks and multitools required different upgradable skills and were consumable items that needed to be rationed. DX:HR only allows you to hack... this takes energy... like everything else. For negative argument see #2, about streamlining and #8, about hacking. Also, it may reduce the plausibility of the environment (all doors locked with computer interfaces????)

12. Mostly static environment: It's the little things that suck you in. Deus Ex was as nearly a complete simulation as possible. DX:HR will be deviating from this.

Jerion
17th Nov 2010, 05:53
Hmm. Took long enough. :rasp:

You're quite correct that these are all ways in which HR differs from it's predecessor/chronological sequel. A couple places to poke at it though.

-Number 5 suggests a scenario that is untrue in Human Revolution; the level design allows for the cover system to function adequately for combat and stealth without implausibly catering to it. I really hate playing the "I have experience with the game! Nyah!" card, but... :)

-Number 7 is arguably -- nearly certainly, I'd say -- a fault of EM marketing pressing home to the audience the design mechanics rather than the goal of those mechanics (which is what Harvey spoke of).

Pinky_Powers
17th Nov 2010, 06:06
Man, this game is gunna suck. :(

Jerion
17th Nov 2010, 06:11
Man, this game is gunna suck. :(

http://blog.devstone.com/images/waffleiron.jpg

NKD
17th Nov 2010, 06:39
This is a new and interesting thread with new and interesting complaints.

Rindill the Red
17th Nov 2010, 06:54
This is a new and interesting thread with new and interesting complaints.

Attacking my thread, and by extension, me, with sarcasm is not welcome. This thread is in response to Jerion's thread and is simply a list of ways the game is unfaithful to Deus Ex. If you have complaints you can take them somewhere else.

mentalkase
17th Nov 2010, 06:55
This is a very well thought out list of ways this differs to the original no doubt. Although as you said some of those points are your opinion and I don't necessarily share them.

"Third person game-play drastically changes the relation between the character the player controls, the game world, and the player himself in such a way as to reduce or completely eliminate the cognitive-imaginative experience of being a character in the game-world".

I just don't believe that 3rd person will have such a drastic effect on my ability to feel that i'm inhabiting this character. I never once felt while in a DX 3rd person conversation "Woah what is this? I'm having some kind of out of body experience! Who am I!?!"

3rd person has been a standard mechanic of games from their very beginning and i'm very used to playing in that format, and it rarely has taken me out of the character if done well.

Would I prefer it had less 3rd person elements? Undoubtedly. Will it ruin my immersion in the game and the character? Not necessarily. If it's done smoothly and isn't annoying then honestly I doubt i'll even really notice after a while. I'll be too absorbed in the story, world and gameplay.

mad825
17th Nov 2010, 07:15
kudos.

it does seem theoretically that DXHR is going to be a cheap knock-off to the original however if it has a positive/negative impact on playing the game and story (while forgetting that it's called Deus Ex) has yet to be determined.

Jerion
17th Nov 2010, 07:32
Mmm. Rindill, has there actually been confirmation on the alternate number 7? You gotta be careful of drifting into speculation, and you do that a bit here.

mad825
17th Nov 2010, 07:43
Mmm. Rindill, has there actually been confirmation on the alternate number 7? You gotta be careful of drifting into speculation, and you do that a bit here.

so what? the original "Ten reasons Human Revolution is faithful to Deus Ex" article was nothing but speculation...so tell me what is the difference to what Rindill is doing?

IOOI
17th Nov 2010, 07:54
Mmm. Rindill, has there actually been confirmation on the alternate number 7? You gotta be careful of drifting into speculation, and you do that a bit here.

Let me guess: children are in the game, but we can't kill them. :hmm:

If this is true, we'll need mods, MODS!

pringlepower
17th Nov 2010, 07:58
Let me guess: children are in the game, but we can't kill them. :hmm:

If this is true, we'll need mods, MODS!

It's a lot easier to just not have children in the game. Why don't you go to Detroit at midnight and look for kids on the street?

Pinky_Powers
17th Nov 2010, 08:02
so what? the original "Ten reasons Human Revolution is faithful to Deus Ex" article was nothing but speculation...so tell me what is the difference to what Rindill is doing?

You don't understand what the word "speculation" means, do you? The article was a galacticly stupid amalgamation of unrelated preternatural gibberish, but it held very little speculation.

Also, there can be no worse insult to Rindill's work here than to link it in quality to that hideous thing. :D

Rindill the Red
17th Nov 2010, 13:25
Mmm. Rindill, has there actually been confirmation on the alternate number 7? You gotta be careful of drifting into speculation, and you do that a bit here.

Your own list is full of speculation and personal opinion as well, only based on your impressions of what Eidos Montreal allowed you to see and what Eidos Montreal allowed you to say.

My goal was simple: write a list of 10 ways that Human Revolution is unfaithful to Deus Ex. And I could do this only using what little available information I have. If you think you could write a better list with less speculation, be my guest, as I was not afforded the opportunity to transport myself to EM and play the game. So before you unduly criticize someone else's work, I suggest you take into account how their unique situation differs from your own and how that could possibly affect the quality of their work.

AlexOfSpades
17th Nov 2010, 13:29
Red, did you created this thread just to counterattack Immortal's thread or do you really, really think that the game is unfaithful?

Spiffmeister
17th Nov 2010, 13:59
I've got to say the regenerating health model is a major game changer for me. I'm an old school gamer (as I'm sure many of us here are) that comes from an age where you needed to time or manage health pickups or kits. A kit that repairs your health is far more realistic than bullets falling out of your flesh and your skin healing itself in 10 seconds.

The skill/aug system is also a bad design choice, unless it's very carefully balanced/crafted. You'll have to excuse me if I have no faith in developers to do that.

As for the other things, minigames can get bent; We all saw how much of a dud they were in Bioshock. The only game thats ever done that right was Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory.

My main concern is with augmentations looks. In the original they were supposed to look crude, they were mechanical parts after all. In this one they look a bit too sleek, and in the trailers Jenson looks more like an action hero than JC or Alex ever did.

Still, only time will tell.

Uzuki
17th Nov 2010, 14:06
One thing to remember is from point #1.


it may reduce

Also,
4. No melee weapons: Deus Ex featured melee weapons, DX:HR will not. Close-combat is an automatic win for Jensen, and carries no risk of failure or player skill.

While this may be a drawback in itself, the Dragon's Tooth sword shouldn't have taken much skill to hack someone apart, in theory. But it was easy to miss in spite of the visual arc of the swing, at least when the commandos start circle strafing you. DX:HR will have much better A.I., I hear, and hopefully instead of "interpreting" circle strafing as them actually dodging the arc of what's essentially a light saber, maybe a large amount of skill is required just to close to melee range. I haven't watched any gameplay videos...could you please tell me how it's auto-win if AJ gains melee range?

But seriously @ 7, considering how much more realistic people look than DX1, I don't think it's mentally healthy for the player to be slaughtering children, do you? The last thing this game needs is school boards and other parent organizations raising hell to get it banned (see Catcher in the Rye, e.g.). The more immersed I am in DX:HR, the less I want to question my own decision making for killing kids in a game. What should they do for voice acting? Go to ER's and listen for screaming kids? "Hi doctors, families, we'd like to record your children in pain for a video game." That'll be more realistic than adult voice actors, if immersion is so important.

Anasumtj
17th Nov 2010, 14:13
Yeah, let's never put children in videogames again for the sake of our "mental health". Just like how film crews never hire child actors and get them to scream and play dead.


The more immersed I am in DX:HR, the less I want to question my own decision making for killing kids in a game

Bud, that's an issue you have to sort out on your own end. You can just as well not kill the kids, you know.

Uzuki
17th Nov 2010, 14:33
One thing to remember is from point #1.


it may reduce

Also,
4. No melee weapons: Deus Ex featured melee weapons, DX:HR will not. Close-combat is an automatic win for Jensen, and carries no risk of failure or player skill.

While this may be a drawback in itself, the Dragon's Tooth sword shouldn't have taken much skill to hack someone apart, in theory. But it was easy to miss in spite of the visual arc of the swing, at least when the commandos start circle strafing you. DX:HR will have much better A.I., I hear, and hopefully instead of "interpreting" circle strafing as them actually dodging the arc of what's essentially a light saber, maybe a large amount of skill is required just to close to melee range. I haven't watched any gameplay videos...could you please tell me how it's auto-win if AJ gains melee range?

But seriously @ 7, considering how much more realistic people look than DX1, I don't think it's mentally healthy for the player to be slaughtering children, do you? The last thing this game needs is school boards and other parent organizations raising hell to get it banned (see Catcher in the Rye, e.g.). The more immersed I am in DX:HR, the less I want to question my own decision making for killing kids in a game. What should they do for voice acting? Go to ER's and listen for screaming kids? "Hi doctors, families, we'd like to record your children in pain for a video game." That'll be more realistic than adult voice actors, if immersion is so important.

VectorM
17th Nov 2010, 14:38
How could you take that article seriously in the first place?

cal141
17th Nov 2010, 14:47
How could you take that article seriously in the first place?

Good point.

Someone is wrong on the internet... and needs to be corrected. :rolleyes:;)

Human Revolution isn't dark and blue like Deus Ex, it seems so amber and "Blade Runnery" therefore it is not faithful.

Be glad somebody invested in a game with augmentations and conspiracies, it could be worse, it could be something as shallow and mundane as Modern Warfare or Call of Duty.

Rindill the Red
17th Nov 2010, 14:51
Red, did you created this thread just to counterattack Immortal's thread or do you really, really think that the game is unfaithful?

It wasn't to attack Jerion's thread, and I don't think the game is unfaithful... it's merely the counterpart to Jerion's list. In fact, it was my hope that by analyzing the ways it was unfaithful, compared to the ways it was faithful, side by side, more people would see that the unfaithful bits are rather superficial compared to how DX:HR is capturing Deus Ex, and will come to optimistically approach DX:HR.

Thasc
17th Nov 2010, 15:00
My evaluation...

1) I'm not really worried about third-person, to be honest. That's just personal preference though, I can't really back it up.

2) This is more important, but I'll wait to see how it's handled. In fairness to DX2, DX1's system of injecting 'skill' into whatever you like has to be considered unrealistic. In HR, Jensen is already a highly-trained security specialist, so it's more realistic that his abilities would increase more through augmentation than training during gameplay (what is he likely to learn in the few days that the game narrative will likely cover that he hasn't already learned through years working as a bodyguard?).

3) Similar to 1).

4) Pity about this, I liked the old DX1 stun prod (though I barely used it). Mainly for the sound it made as it flicked out.

5) Similar to 1), 3).

6) Can't evaluate with the info we have.

7) Meh. I'm never bothered by a lack of children in other games.

8) Minigames may be unfaithful, but they also sound like fun. I consider this a pro.

9) Not *too* sure about this. But I'll lump it with 1), 3), 5). It'll probably be ok.

10) Can't really evaluate this yet either. It'll remove the rush you get when you're low on health and resources but still pull through, but it'll also remove the frustration you get when you *don't* pull through... repeatedly.

InGroove2
17th Nov 2010, 15:25
One thing to remember is from point #1.



Also,

While this may be a drawback in itself, the Dragon's Tooth sword shouldn't have taken much skill to hack someone apart, in theory. But it was easy to miss in spite of the visual arc of the swing, at least when the commandos start circle strafing you. DX:HR will have much better A.I., I hear, and hopefully instead of "interpreting" circle strafing as them actually dodging the arc of what's essentially a light saber, maybe a large amount of skill is required just to close to melee range. I haven't watched any gameplay videos...could you please tell me how it's auto-win if AJ gains melee range?

But seriously @ 7, considering how much more realistic people look than DX1, I don't think it's mentally healthy for the player to be slaughtering children, do you? The last thing this game needs is school boards and other parent organizations raising hell to get it banned (see Catcher in the Rye, e.g.). The more immersed I am in DX:HR, the less I want to question my own decision making for killing kids in a game. What should they do for voice acting? Go to ER's and listen for screaming kids? "Hi doctors, families, we'd like to record your children in pain for a video game." That'll be more realistic than adult voice actors, if immersion is so important.


i agree that the DTS was almost a full proof melee plan as well... there were few enemies which need more than one slap. though i do lament the loss of melee weapons... i can't say i'm justified in doing so. there are some tactical things that resulted. things like breaking windows... i dont want to be relegated to shooting a window to break it open... what about stealth? so how are we gonna break windows?


second. i totally agree about the killing kids thing. it's a very strange thing to want a game to be totally immersive and simulating... and ALSO want to be able to kill kids because of it.

IOOI
17th Nov 2010, 15:39
It's a lot easier to just not have children in the game. Why don't you go to Detroit at midnight and look for kids on the street?

If that's your justification then I have to ask: Aren't there some daylightish levels (in the evening - when kids get out of school)? I've read that somewhere :hmm:

subtlesnake
17th Nov 2010, 15:50
I've got to say the regenerating health model is a major game changer for me. I'm an old school gamer (as I'm sure many of us here are) that comes from an age where you needed to time or manage health pickups or kits. A kit that repairs your health is far more realistic than bullets falling out of your flesh and your skin healing itself in 10 seconds.
Health kits restore damage instantly as well, though.

Jerion
17th Nov 2010, 16:35
Your own list is full of speculation and personal opinion as well, only based on your impressions of what Eidos Montreal allowed you to see and what Eidos Montreal allowed you to say.

My goal was simple: write a list of 10 ways that Human Revolution is unfaithful to Deus Ex. And I could do this only using what little available information I have. If you think you could write a better list with less speculation, be my guest, as I was not afforded the opportunity to transport myself to EM and play the game. So before you unduly criticize someone else's work, I suggest you take into account how their unique situation differs from your own and how that could possibly affect the quality of their work.

You misunderstand me. In all of the points of your list, you accurately worked out discrepancies between HR and DX. That was never in dispute. However in some instances you then went on to speculate how a given change may affect the game experience. Rindill, this is precisely why I suggested it would be prudent to wait until the game's release, so that you or whoever would have written this post would have a comparable level of firsthand experience with the title. There would be no reason to add in speculation when you know better. See where I'm coming from? :)

It is very true that my own post is based on my experience, and that puts me in a unique position. However my access to the game was unscripted and unrestricted, and no changes were made between my own initial writeup of Ten Reasons and the version I posted.

KSingh77
17th Nov 2010, 16:46
This game could make IW look like the better game.

Ashpolt
17th Nov 2010, 17:16
^^ I have (almost) no doubt that this will be a better game than Invisible War. Almost.

At this point though, I'm sorry to say that I'm pretty convinced that Invisible War will turn out to be the more faithful sequel. Which is not something I hoped to say.

InGroove2
17th Nov 2010, 17:52
^^ I have (almost) no doubt that this will be a better game than Invisible War. Almost.

At this point though, I'm sorry to say that I'm pretty convinced that Invisible War will turn out to be the more faithful sequel. Which is not something I hoped to say.

can someone provide a working definition of "faithful" here? i am just not sure how this conversastion can go on without knowing that. What does it mean to be faithful to something?

Ashpolt
17th Nov 2010, 18:11
can someone provide a working definition of "faithful" here? i am just not sure how this conversastion can go on without knowing that. What does it mean to be faithful to something?

For me, I'm talking about the gameplay mechanics, but really it's about the overall consistency (with previous games, not internal consistency) of experience. I think this game will play only loosely similarly to Deus Ex - in the same way that Doom 3 plays loosely similarly to Dead Space. Invisible War may have had its faults, but at the end of the day, it still played quite like Deus Ex - like a somewhat backwards and occasionally broken version of Deus Ex, but like Deus Ex nonetheless. Other than the fact that cyberpunk games are few and far between, if you took the name Deus Ex off the trailers and footage for this game, I wouldn't be able to tell that it's meant to be a Deus Ex game.

WildcatPhoenix
17th Nov 2010, 18:47
^^ I have (almost) no doubt that this will be a better game than Invisible War. Almost.

At this point though, I'm sorry to say that I'm pretty convinced that Invisible War will turn out to be the more faithful sequel. Which is not something I hoped to say.

It hurts just seeing those words put in print. :(

InGroove2
17th Nov 2010, 18:47
For me, I'm talking about the gameplay mechanics, but really it's about the overall consistency (with previous games, not internal consistency) of experience. I think this game will play only loosely similarly to Deus Ex - in the same way that Doom 3 plays loosely similarly to Dead Space. Invisible War may have had its faults, but at the end of the day, it still played quite like Deus Ex - like a somewhat backwards and occasionally broken version of Deus Ex, but like Deus Ex nonetheless. Other than the fact that cyberpunk games are few and far between, if you took the name Deus Ex off the trailers and footage for this game, I wouldn't be able to tell that it's meant to be a Deus Ex game.

hmmm. i never saw an IW trailer... i can't make the comparison. though IW didn't feel like DX at all aside from the name and my perception of the intent of the game ( i knew nothing of it aside from that it was a sequel, when i played it).

and the obvious answer is also that playing IW is not an equivalent experience to seeing the trailers for HR. just sayin.

Ashpolt
17th Nov 2010, 19:58
hmmm. i never saw an IW trailer... i can't make the comparison. though IW didn't feel like DX at all aside from the name and my perception of the intent of the game ( i knew nothing of it aside from that it was a sequel, when i played it).

and the obvious answer is also that playing IW is not an equivalent experience to seeing the trailers for HR. just sayin.

I'm judging more off the "features" of the game than the trailers. Knowing that the game has third person cover, takedowns and regenerating health gives me a fair idea of how it will play.

IOOI
18th Nov 2010, 05:12
I concur with Aspolt. But, putting it more briefly, faithful to DX would mean being a "First Person Immersive Simulator" - we know there are TP convos in DX but they are a minour part of the game.
Well, if HRs gameplay substantially involves Third Person acts it makes it automatically not faithful to DX.

Was that good enough? :hmm:

Dragonknight
18th Nov 2010, 09:47
@Jerion:

There is nothing wrong with Rindill's speculation. After all, it's his opinion based on what is known so far. Then you said "However in some instances you then went on to speculate how a given change may affect the game experience." There is nothing wrong with him saying that. It's his view on how that could effect the game. If he's wrong, tell us why, instead of using the fanboy line of "wait until the game comes out".

Pinky_Powers
18th Nov 2010, 10:23
If he's wrong, tell us why, instead of using the fanboy line of "wait until the game comes out".

Yeah, why not just break your NDA and face the savage legal persecution of a multimillion-dollar company. :rolleyes:

Don't be a prat Dragonknight.

Irate_Iguana
18th Nov 2010, 10:25
Yeah, why not just break your NDA and face the savage legal persecution of a multimillion-dollar company. :rolleyes:

He doesn't live in the same country and the USA doesn't extradite its citizens.

Kvltism
18th Nov 2010, 10:48
Good post, Rindill.

I'm more than willing to give EM benefit of the doubt on most points, but point #4 is an absolute disgrace. There's no valid reason to dispense with melee combat, leaving the player with no choice but to use gimmicky third-person takedowns.

Every time I watch the gameplay demo vids and see Adam just casually ambush two guards, instantly incapacitating them with a takedown, my blood boils. Whoever is responsible for that design decision made a monumental blunder.

Dragonknight
18th Nov 2010, 10:49
It's simple. If Jerion can't say why Rindill (or anyone else) is wrong, he needs to say nothing.

Pinky_Powers
18th Nov 2010, 11:45
It's simple. If Jerion can't say why Rindill (or anyone else) is wrong, he needs to say nothing.

I'd much rather have him say what he can with the words he can to give us hope and a little understanding than merely sit quietly while people draw conclusions he knows to be false.

stfu & gto, your pursuit of ignorance is not a noble endeavor.

AlexOfSpades
18th Nov 2010, 12:51
It's simple. If Jerion can't say why Rindill (or anyone else) is wrong, he needs to say nothing.

I think i know you from another forum... o.o

Anyways, there are rodents and knights here, fighting for your attention, Jerion!

Give us the new trailer!

Give us the DEMO!! No, not yet, not yet. Leave it as a christmas gift.

EDIT:

Give me your adress, i'll send you a selection of chocolates! Do you like those with liquor inside? Or you rather white chocolate with raisins? Ah, i'll send'em all! Just give us the trailer <3

Lady_Of_The_Vine
18th Nov 2010, 14:17
It's Kyle you should be bribing with chocolate and liquor. ;)

WildcatPhoenix
18th Nov 2010, 14:36
I'd much rather have him say what he can with the words he can to give us hope and a little understanding than merely sit quietly while people draw conclusions he knows to be false.


I think that's the key distinction some people are missing- we Internet Sleuths are usually pretty good at spotting tiny hints in screenshots, trailers, etc that might reveal some information about the game (and with a scant amount of hard, verifiable evidence, speculation is really all we have at this point). But sometimes we misinterpret a statement from the developers, or over-analyze some blurry image from the Interwebz, and it leads to mass panic.

And that's where Jerion steps in, to try to calm the frenzied masses before the pitchforks and torches break out.

BigBoss
18th Nov 2010, 17:09
1.The inclusion of third person game-play[/B]: One of the strengths of Deus Ex was its ability to not just engage the player but also put the player in the world it created; it was an immersive sim. The defining characteristics of an immersive sim are (1) immersion in an elaborate and believable game world, (2) simulation of that game world through physics and AI that leads to emergent game-play, and (3) first person perspective so as to truly look through the eyes of the protagonist. Third person game-play changes the relation between the character the player controls, the game world, and the player himself in such a way that it may reduce the cognitive-imaginative experience of being a character in the game-world.

3. Third person cinematic sequences for narrative purposes: Deus Ex had two cut-scenes, one at the beginning of the game, and three (mutually exclusive) at the end of the game, as well as short pull-outs for travelling (during which the player sees a vehicle drive/fly away setting up the skipped parts of the story (travelling)). EM has shown us through the demo that it is not afraid to cut-scene important parts of the storyline mid-game, effectively turning many exciting and immersive game-play opportunities into movies, and players into watchers; reducing again the player’s involvement and immersion in the game-world, and increasing the protagonist’s autonomy from the player.


These two points are kind of the same thing, but you seem to want your cake and eat it too. Deus ex had it's camera pull out all the time, as in like every conversation meaning that you experienced the reduction of the 'cognitive-imaginative experience' that you are saying dxhr will have as well.

As for most of these other points, they require a certain level of assumption. We don't know yet how the health system will work, especially on every difficulty, and we have only had confirmation on the firearms list, which doesn't rule out the possibility of melee weapons being revealed later. I think this list is as equally invalid as the 10 reasons dxhr will rock, simply because neither writer has actually played the game and is making too many assumptions.

It's also not 'fanboy' of a person to say wait until the game has come out, especially if they have played it or have seen things that are not yet publicly revealed. It's more fanboyish to hate every change little or large before experiencing it. If every series stayed the exact same for each release, people would get sooooooo tired of it. Was it bad for re4, mgs3, kal2, gta3, Mario, ect... to reinvent themselves?

Fox89
19th Nov 2010, 02:51
3. Third person cinematic sequences for narrative purposes: Deus Ex had two cut-scenes, one at the beginning of the game, and three (mutually exclusive) at the end of the game

DX had a cutscene every time you had a conversation. The camera changed angle every time a new line was spoken, zoomed in for dramatic effect and so on. It's likely that the only reason these weren't full blown cut scenes as in DX3 is due to the limitations of the engine at the time, and cut scenes are cool, I don't see the problem with them myself. If the original DX was made with modern technology, I think it's pretty likely proper cutscenes would be implemented.

You have a point in some instances. In the EG Expo gameplay Jensen is crawling through a vent to spy on Tong, and as he gets to the spying position a cutscene starts. That kind of thing might have been better left in the FP perspective, but oh well.

Incidentally, a lot of things that are 'unfaithful' to the original are not necessarily to the game's detriment. New things are possible now, and just because a mechanic is 'new' does not make it worse. I'm sure there will be some elements of HR that were perhaps better left untouched, but by the same token there will be some that improve over DX.

Rindill the Red
19th Nov 2010, 03:03
DX had a cutscene every time you had a conversation. The camera changed angle every time a new line was spoken, zoomed in for dramatic effect and so on. It's likely that the only reason these weren't full blown cut scenes as in DX3 is due to the limitations of the engine at the time, and cut scenes are cool, I don't see the problem with them myself. If the original DX was made with modern technology, I think it's pretty likely proper cutscenes would be implemented.

You have a point in some instances. In the EG Expo gameplay Jensen is crawling through a vent to spy on Tong, and as he gets to the spying position a cutscene starts. That kind of thing might have been better left in the FP perspective, but oh well.

Incidentally, a lot of things that are 'unfaithful' to the original are not necessarily to the game's detriment. New things are possible now, and just because a mechanic is 'new' does not make it worse. I'm sure there will be some elements of HR that were perhaps better left untouched, but by the same token there will be some that improve over DX.

We've hashed this out many times all over the forum. The dialogue is not a cut-scene because no action takes place during them, only dialogue. Take just about any RPG and dialogue will almost always freeze your interaction from the game and give you dialogue controls. In DX:HR we see cut-scene's in which things happen to Adam and in which Adam does things completely out of player control... aye, there's the rub.

I noted before my list that not all of these points were negative... and a lot depended on personal opinion.

WildcatPhoenix
19th Nov 2010, 03:10
DX had a cutscene every time you had a conversation. The camera changed angle every time a new line was spoken, zoomed in for dramatic effect and so on. It's likely that the only reason these weren't full blown cut scenes as in DX3 is due to the limitations of the engine at the time, and cut scenes are cool, I don't see the problem with them myself. If the original DX was made with modern technology, I think it's pretty likely proper cutscenes would be implemented.


You are correct, and this is something I credit EM for improving (to a degree) in DXHR. The conversation with Tong in The Hive was excellent. I loved hearing Jensen's responses without cutting to a 3rd person view because it gives me a chance to watch Tong's reaction. Of course, it helps that technology has improved enough for NPCs to actually have visible reactions to dialogue choices!

Sadly, EM goes and squanders all that goodwill by cramming in 3rd person, mid-mission, non-interactive cutscenes on both the small (takedowns) and large (Adam in the vent, the bomb/Barrett scenario, etc) scale.

KSingh77
19th Nov 2010, 03:30
I think this game needs more Baysplosions.

Mostly during conversation scenes.

mentalkase
19th Nov 2010, 03:40
I think this game needs more Baysplosions.

Mostly during conversation scenes.

If only there was some way to incorporate this into the game.

http://bayifier.com/

Pinky_Powers
19th Nov 2010, 03:40
I think this game needs more Baysplosions.

Mostly during conversation scenes.

You're not wrong.

WildcatPhoenix
19th Nov 2010, 03:47
I think this game needs more Baysplosions.

Mostly during conversation scenes.

Agreed, although we're already getting a steady dose of McTiernan with the Die Hard, slow-motion, "dive out of a window as a bomb explodes behind you" goodness from the previous trailers. :rolleyes:

Rindill the Red
19th Nov 2010, 03:52
If only there was some way to incorporate this into the game.

http://bayifier.com/

http://bayifier.com/created/11182152216.jpg

The site has a bloom type effect, but DX:HR is already so golden bright that using it would just turn the picture into a mess.

KSingh77
19th Nov 2010, 04:05
Oh also it needs an annoying character that keeps on buggying and begging Adam to acompany him in his adventures.

"Come on Adam!Let me come along!"

"Can I? Can I? Can I?"

FrankCSIS
19th Nov 2010, 04:21
Oh also it needs an annoying character that keeps on buggying and begging Adam to acompany him in his adventures.

"Come on Adam!Let me come along!"

"Can I? Can I? Can I?"

Can it be a cute little robot, begging in an electronically comical way?

Kodaemon
19th Nov 2010, 05:05
Needs more soldiers rappelling from helicopters.

mentalkase
19th Nov 2010, 09:03
Needs a foulmouthed wisecracking blackman, preferably Martin Lawrence or someone else suitably hilarious.

Pinky_Powers
19th Nov 2010, 09:41
s**t! Bad Boy was an awesome movie! :D

mentalkase
19th Nov 2010, 10:00
s**t! Bad Boy was an awesome movie! :D

:lmao: Oh wait .. I think you might be serious.

Pinky_Powers
19th Nov 2010, 10:06
Damn right I'm serious. Good action, good comedy, simple plot, but solid enough for what it was.

Bad Boys was on TV just a few weeks ago. I enjoyed it this last time just as much as I used to. :)

mentalkase
19th Nov 2010, 10:16
I just don't enjoy that kind of buddy cop action movie at all. Lethal weapon etc. Car chases bore me and I never need to hear another bad quip after someone is killed in a movie again.

Gordon_Shea
19th Nov 2010, 18:24
That sure is a whole lot of taking video games too seriously.

Pinky_Powers
20th Nov 2010, 01:09
I just don't enjoy that kind of buddy cop action movie at all. Lethal weapon etc. Car chases bore me and I never need to hear another bad quip after someone is killed in a movie again.

S**t! that's a whole genre of great films you can't enjoy!

Lethal Weapon, Dragnet, Tango and Cash, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, The Last Boyscout, Bad Boys, Men in Black... hell, even Sherlock Holmes has a lot of Buddy Cop elements. :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
20th Nov 2010, 01:13
That sure is a whole lot of taking video games too seriously.
Some therapy is called for. The Omar can help with this. :)

pringlepower
20th Nov 2010, 01:53
S**t! that's a whole genre of great films you can't enjoy!

Lethal Weapon, Dragnet, Tango and Cash, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, The Last Boyscout, Bad Boys, Men in Black... hell, even Sherlock Holmes has a lot of Buddy Cop elements. :)

Hot Fuzz, Bon Cop Bad Cop...

FrankCSIS
20th Nov 2010, 01:56
Dragnet!

How I love thee. What a weird, amusing flick.

mentalkase
20th Nov 2010, 02:24
S**t! that's a whole genre of great films you can't enjoy!

Lethal Weapon, Dragnet, Tango and Cash, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang, The Last Boyscout, Bad Boys, Men in Black... hell, even Sherlock Holmes has a lot of Buddy Cop elements. :)

I kind of enjoyed Sherlock Holmes, I do enjoy Guy Ritchie movies.

mentalkase
20th Nov 2010, 02:26
Hot Fuzz, Bon Cop Bad Cop...

You got me there. Hot Fuzz was awesome. Not quite as good as Shaun of the Dead but still pretty great

oops .. double post was a booboo sorry.

Spiffmeister
21st Nov 2010, 16:40
Health kits restore damage instantly as well, though.
Evidently the obvious is not clear here. The regenerating health model represents 1 thing in games: Lazy level design.

If a developer said to you "I'm going to give you unlimited ammo for this battlefield nuke launcher, because I don't want to having to look for ammo." You'd call them mad, but the instant they stop thinking about having to strategically place health kits so they don't give you too little or too many you call them genius.

Health kits require a certain level of tactics. Knowing when you can afford to loose some HP and when you need to save it, it doesn't give way for blindly mistaking your way though an entire game. Regen-health allows you to do exactly that. Make countless mistakes and never having to worry about death.

Regardless of this point - Regenerating health is in the game, so there's really no point in arguing about it.