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View Full Version : Area transitions... the invincible door and other quirks...



Rindill the Red
27th Oct 2010, 01:02
Something interesting and unique I found about DX1 vs. DX2 was that none of the doors in DX1 were transition points... while in DX2 (if I remember correctly, I haven't played it in awhile) would almost exclusively use doors as transition points.

I have two woes with using doors as transition points. The first is it's less immersive than loading at certain points because you simply walk up and click the door, your character blacks out and suddenly you are standing on the other side (I'm looking at you, Oblivion), enemies that follow you simply appear on the other side... The second woe is that these doors must necessarily be invincible and so cannot be breached by any other means than making sure they're not locked and "pretending" to open them. I found DX1's style much more immersive because when you come across the door many options are open to you, including blowing the door down. When enemies chase you they transfer seamlessly through the load. Granted, Deus Ex didn't get this perfectly right, and open doors and shut doors didn't sync up perfectly across loads.

Anyway, I think DX:HR uses doors as transition points :(, or can their engine work around this?

Jerion
27th Oct 2010, 01:09
I remember seeing in the leaked gameplay footage (not the trailer, but the grainy video with the big head in the way) that some doors are used as transition points (like getting into The Hive as was shown).

Personally I don't find it all that irksome, but it can be irritating in any game to expect to walk into the building next door, and -bam- loading screen.

sonicsidewinder
27th Oct 2010, 01:15
Interesting.

Thing is, something must be used as a transition. There aint all that big a diference between 'clicking a door' and 'opening a door then walking though' to trigger the transition. It's only a small thing. As far as immersion goes, i aint worried.

The problem with invisible war would be the levels were so small that you are constantly hitting these 'door transitions' and loading screens in quick succession.

HR might use the oblivion method, but i doubt it'll occur with the pace of Invisible war.

And if it does, shame on Eidos.

TrickyVein
27th Oct 2010, 01:28
Yeah, but doors conceptually can be thought of as transition points between different areas. So why not make them technical transition points as well? It's a sound philosophy, and I'd much prefer door-portals to trigger-zones that catch you off guard (like in the original DX).

rokstrombo
27th Oct 2010, 01:29
Deus Ex used quite a lot of doors to trigger map changes actually, especially elevator doors (EDIT: Not sure about that actually!). You're correct that Human Revolution will also be using doors to trigger map changes, though the engine is described as allowing large maps. I would imagine that separating a densely populated area such as The Hive from the main lower Hengsha map would be a pretty unobtrusive means of freeing a lot of resources. There are also storytelling and gameplay considerations such as whether or not the Hengsha Police will bust into The Hive and kill important characters before the player can reach them. An invincible door is a very simple way to prevent consequences such as this without significantly adding to the complexity of the game.

Blade_hunter
27th Oct 2010, 01:36
That's not a question of engine, that's a question of what the developers decided to use as a level transition point.
The level designers are the ones who chose that since they are the people who decide what script will activate X event ie going to the other map so you walk through an area and loading or use something and loading.

I understand what you mean, I agree with you in this fact, so you can't blow up the door and get inside the hive by using your explosives while in DX 1 this possibility can be one of them.
But you still can hack the door's lock if there is one or have a key / permission from the NPC who maintains the door locked.

EDIT @Rok DX 1 didn't have any door for this, it uses elevators and vehicles to change the levels; otherwise you still have to get inside the elevator and press the button to into the right stage

Rindill the Red
27th Oct 2010, 01:48
Yeah, but doors conceptually can be thought of as transition points between different areas. So why not make them technical transition points as well? It's a sound philosophy, and I'd much prefer door-portals to trigger-zones that catch you off guard (like in the original DX).

I liked the original DX style, of course, I played the game for the first time about 4 years after it was released, so the loading times were just about a second... so I didn't find it obtrusive.

I couldn't stand DX2's frequency and length of loading... *shudder*

Jerion
27th Oct 2010, 01:49
I liked the original DX style, of course, I played the game for the first time about 4 years after it was released, so the loading times were just about a second... so I didn't find it obtrusive.

I couldn't stand DX2's frequency and length of loading... *shudder*

Back in 2000, it was 10-20 seconds for each load, sometimes longer. Talk about broken pacing...

super...
27th Oct 2010, 02:05
i think the problem is when i totally drop a context bomb on the outside of a building only to enter it and find that the police are quite content to wait outside until I have finished my business and continue chasing me once I depart hours later.

I start thinking "oh if I can get to that door the guards wont chase me anymore" that sort of sets the logic of the game world apart from what players may naturally expect. it also kills the mood when the shifts ignore context.

some parts of the original deus ex were like this.

Pinky_Powers
27th Oct 2010, 02:12
I like DX one's version best, but I can't see it as all that plausible. There's just so much detail in these environments, the door transition seems like the easiest fix.


i think the problem is when i totally drop a context bomb on the outside of a building only to enter it and find that the police are quite content to wait outside until I have finished my business and continue chasing me once I depart hours later.

I start thinking "oh if I can get to that door the guards wont chase me anymore" that sort of sets the logic of the game world apart from what players may naturally expect. it also kills the mood when the shifts ignore context.

some parts of the original deus ex were like this.

That's just bad AI design.

Look at Oblivion, there were transitions right and left in that game, but NPCs had no trouble following you in or out of buildings. And guards would willingly chase you to the ends of the earth.

Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines did this too.

I haven't tested it out yet, but I imagine Fallout New Vegas is the same.

FrankCSIS
27th Oct 2010, 02:38
Look at Oblivion, there were transitions right and left in that game, but NPCs had no trouble following you in or out of buildings.

The bugs that came from this though were of nightmarish proportions. How many times did I load a perfectly normal save where characters, previously un-loaded, would just randomly load up in the middle of the damn house, or simply unexplainable guard spawnings, followed by the irksome "freezeyoupunkinthenameoftheking" zoom in on their faces. Frustrating piece of work. I'm assuming it was just this game's problem though, and not necesssarily having anything to do with this particular type of loading process. Or at least, nothing that can't be fixed.

LeMoN_LiMe
27th Oct 2010, 03:01
I don't expect this to really be a problem for the PS3. They should be able to take care of it......

OwlSolar
27th Oct 2010, 04:33
Couldn't it be possible for this game to start loading the area before you go through the door? Games such as Metroid and Batman have used this system...

Darma
27th Oct 2010, 04:48
Interesting.

Thing is, something must be used as a transition. There aint all that big a diference between 'clicking a door' and 'opening a door then walking though' to trigger the transition. It's only a small thing. As far as immersion goes, i aint worried.

The problem with invisible war would be the levels were so small that you are constantly hitting these 'door transitions' and loading screens in quick succession.

HR might use the oblivion method, but i doubt it'll occur with the pace of Invisible war.

And if it does, shame on Eidos.

What I hate is when you have to wait 15 minutes to play 2 minutes in the map...

Red
27th Oct 2010, 07:43
Well, aren't they using a CD engine, famous for it's streaming technology? Single load screen for the level, everything else within = seamless stream.

Legacy of Kain and Tomb Raider players know what I'm talking about...

Daedalus Ciarán
27th Oct 2010, 19:50
I imagine the cutscenes will act as loading buffers for new levels as well. Of course that would mean that they can't be skipped...

IOOI
28th Oct 2010, 03:51
i think the problem is when i totally drop a context bomb on the outside of a building only to enter it and find that the police are quite content to wait outside until I have finished my business and continue chasing me once I depart hours later.

I start thinking "oh if I can get to that door the guards wont chase me anymore" that sort of sets the logic of the game world apart from what players may naturally expect. it also kills the mood when the shifts ignore context.

some parts of the original deus ex were like this.

lol. You just made me remember of the transition point between HK market and the Lucky Money.
After the toast - for joining the triads - I started killing everybody I could find inside the club (making a "no witnesses run") and when I was near the transition point, shooting some NPCs that escaped from the club (at the club's side), I noticed a regular MJ12 soldier (not the commando) coming down from the stairs in front of Versalife and shooting at me. I was like "WTH? How did he get here and from where? Maggie's apartment maybe? Did he hear the gunfire?" But I hadn't noticed anyone following me and I was pretty sure I had killed all MJ12 soldiers I had found. Plus I had been for about 15 minutes inside the club.

Probably somekind of bug, but it took me by surprise. :cool:

TrickyVein
28th Oct 2010, 04:27
Well, aren't they using a CD engine, famous for it's streaming technology? Single load screen for the level, everything else within = seamless stream.

Legacy of Kain and Tomb Raider players know what I'm talking about...

Oh yes - now that's called keeping immersion. Being able to sit down and play all 1 hour and 45 minutes (and then some) of Underworld without waiting for anything to load is priceless. 1) You don't realize it when you're playing, and 2) once you do, you realize how rare that is in other games.

avenging_teabag
28th Oct 2010, 10:47
Seriously, and I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, this is a solid contender for the "Most trivial and insignificant thing to be worried over in a game, ever" award. Honestly. As long as a transition doesn't happen at every other door, it'll be fine.

AlexOfSpades
28th Oct 2010, 12:09
Seriously, and I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, this is a solid contender for the "Most trivial and insignificant thing to be worried over in a game, ever" award. Honestly. As long as a transition doesn't happen at every other door, it'll be fine.

Lol.

I think we're so anxious for the game, we wanna know everything about it!


or simply unexplainable guard spawnings, followed by the irksome "freezeyoupunkinthenameoftheking" zoom in on their faces.

Actually its "Stop! You violated the Law! Pay the court a Fine or Serve your Sentence. Your stolen goods are now forfeit."

or then "Stop right there, criminal scum! No one breaks the law in My waaatch!"

Heh, after more than 300 hours of game, you're going to hear that SO MUCH you'll never forget.

But i loved your version.

Like if the guards were cops from New York.

TrickyVein
28th Oct 2010, 12:19
Seriously, and I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, this is a solid contender for the "Most trivial and insignificant thing to be worried over in a game, ever" award. Honestly. As long as a transition doesn't happen at every other door, it'll be fine.

Yes, that's probably true. We're all spewing hot air to some degree. At least I do most the time. Same can be said for anything in a videogame period: trivial. But then you wouldn't be on the forums, would you?

avenging_teabag
28th Oct 2010, 12:45
^Touché. But seriously, there are important game mechanics (those have been discussed to death several times over though), and there are crate textures. Or the length of Adam's goatee. Or doors. "Transition points are ruining mah immershun!" is taking it a bit too far, I think.

TrickyVein
28th Oct 2010, 16:20
You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: AJ's hair is a huge gripe of mine. I mean, who can pull off that kind of look with confidence? How does he keep it back like that, all the time? How vain is our protagonist supposed to be?

Rindill the Red
28th Oct 2010, 16:43
You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: AJ's hair is a huge gripe of mine. I mean, who can pull off that kind of look with confidence? How does he keep it back like that, all the time? How vain is our protagonist supposed to be?

It's oil grease. Adam's machinery pumps it up around his skull and out through his hair follicles.

TrickyVein
28th Oct 2010, 20:26
So AJ's hair is ignitable! He really shouldn't be firing weapons then.

Angel-A
28th Oct 2010, 21:33
Portal doors would be suck.
You go to the door and mysteriously float to the other side. I don't get it.


I noticed a regular MJ12 soldier (not the commando) coming down from the stairs in front of Versalife and shooting at me. I was like "WTH? How did he get here and from where? Maggie's apartment maybe? Did he hear the gunfire?" But I hadn't noticed anyone following me and I was pretty sure I had killed all MJ12 soldiers I had found. Plus I had been for about 15 minutes inside the club.

Probably somekind of bug, but it took me by surprise. :cool:
Not a bug, per se, an MJ12 troop is always hidden past the transition point of the Lucky Money. :scratch:



You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: AJ's hair is a huge gripe of mine. I mean, who can pull off that kind of look with confidence? How does he keep it back like that, all the time? How vain is our protagonist supposed to be?
Stop it, Adam's hair is awesome! It's only awesome!

Pinky_Powers
28th Oct 2010, 22:31
It's oil grease. Adam's machinery pumps it up around his skull and out through his hair follicles.

he he! This is some plausible s**t, this is! Makes perfect sense and sits comfortably in the Cyberpunk setting.

This is now the Official Unofficial Explanation for Adam's hair. :cool:

OwlSolar
28th Oct 2010, 23:58
Seriously, and I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, this is a solid contender for the "Most trivial and insignificant thing to be worried over in a game, ever" award. Honestly. As long as a transition doesn't happen at every other door, it'll be fine.
Personally, I'd give that award to the one about head sizes.

Pinky_Powers
29th Oct 2010, 01:31
Personally, I'd give that award to the one about head sizes.

There's a direct correlation between head size and head-shots. This is a potentially game-crippling issue!! :eek:

:D

TrickyVein
29th Oct 2010, 02:01
Not necessarily true. It's the same reason you wear a baggy coat to a duel with pistols - having a larger head will direct your opponents aim to...your head, thus better protecting your head.

Shralla
29th Oct 2010, 02:10
Aim small, miss small?

Pinky_Powers
29th Oct 2010, 08:05
Not necessarily true. It's the same reason you wear a baggy coat to a duel with pistols - having a larger head will direct your opponents aim to...your head, thus better protecting your head.

Adam's head is fine, I think. It's all the other people of the world.

Jerion
29th Oct 2010, 08:28
Wow, this thread took a turn. Door transitions, anyone?

Facebyface
29th Oct 2010, 10:55
Unfortunately we still live in the age where these are a problem, and handling them must be done with care. I love that in The Witcher 2 demos, they very much chuckled about having no loading screen transitions in areas which no one really noticed because they were taking in the scenery. I'd be amazing to just have an open door world, but we're not yet at that point but I hope that only major areas will have loading points instead of everything. Time will tell.

avenging_teabag
29th Oct 2010, 13:06
You know, I've said it before and I'll say it again: AJ's hair is a huge gripe of mine. I mean, who can pull off that kind of look with confidence? How does he keep it back like that, all the time? How vain is our protagonist supposed to be?
The hair is... questionable, but I find a protagonist with at least some noticeable flaws (and not of the usual "he's a smug ******* but only to those who deserve it" type) kind of appealing. In our case - vanity. I don't have a problem with that.

Unfortunately we still live in the age where these are a problem, and handling them must be done with care. I love that in The Witcher 2 demos, they very much chuckled about having no loading screen transitions in areas which no one really noticed because they were taking in the scenery. I'd be amazing to just have an open door world, but we're not yet at that point but I hope that only major areas will have loading points instead of everything. Time will tell.
Witcher devs are not really the right people to chuckle. The first game's loading screens, those were... eurgh.