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tartarus_sauce
5th Oct 2010, 06:48
So here's an open question: what would you have done if you were in charge of managing takedowns for DX:HR?

There's a lot of *****ing that goes on in these forums about the insta-kill cutscene takedowns in DX:HR. I'm curious to know what alternatives are out there for the kind of takedowns in HR. It's important to keep in mind that these kinds of takedowns are pretty standard, and they work well enough in other games. You see the exact same thing in the Splinter Cell sequels, as well as the Assassin's Creed games. Those are just the megahits that come to mind. More obscure games, like the classic Hitman series or the sadly underdeveloped Alpha Protocol, also do the same thing.

Personally, I can't think of many games where takedowns managed to be both satisfying and believable without scripting. I've only seen two takedown systems that I thought were both compelling and also more interactive than those already mentioned: The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay and Mirror's Edge. Even then, the takedowns were scripted- the only difference with those games was the inclusion of little quicktime events to liven things up.

If you set aside the issue of the transition to third person perspective and the issue of such takedowns as not being in the spirit of the original Deus Ex, which is of course its own argument, I just don't see the takedowns as being inappropriate. The original Deus Ex, and indeed most games that don't have scripted takedowns, all suffer from the same kind of ridiculous moments where you manage to sneak up behind someone and either bash away at them repeatedly like a child trying to pop a balloon with a q-tip or you get a very wimpy sort of insta-kill that's not at all compelling.

I actually like the takedown system: I think it does meet that believable and satisfying criterion. Complaints about it not being "immersive" are silly to me, because it's definitely a step up in terms of immersion from the melee combat of the original Deus Ex. I mean, if you've ever been in a fight, you really kind of are "out of body" when you're stuck in- you rely on muscle memory, your actions begin to precede your thoughts about them. I don't think it's perfect though. It does seem a little too cutscene-y. Were I in charge, I would've liked to have seen something a little more interactive; just one more layer of participation. Maybe after I stab some baddie I accidentally hit an ammo magazine and instead of ending his life I just knock him a few feet away, and I have to tap the kill button again to finish him off. Something like that to me would be optimal.

What are your thoughts on how a takedown system should be implemented in this game?

pringlepower
5th Oct 2010, 07:11
Personally I'm a fan of the Batman: Arkham Asylum takedowns. What's great about them is they're immersive, the sorts of things that Batman would definitely do, and has done in the comics and films, so you feel like you are Batman (which is helpful in a Batman game). Batman definitely wouldn't smack a thug over and over in the back of his head with a prod.

Secondly there's a lot of variety in both application and function, unlike the functionally homogenous DXHR takedowns. There's a stealth takedown to quietly remove guards, an in-combat takedown to quickly eliminate stunned opponents, and my favourite: the inverted takedown, in which Batman hanging from the roof drops down, grabs a thug, and suspends him upside-down on rope from the ceiling. His screaming attracts the other guards, makes them nervous and screws up their patrol routes, and after a while goes unconcious.

And there are other "takedowns" that involve laying traps of explosive gel, if that counts.

Oh and the animations are just great.

Pinky_Powers
5th Oct 2010, 07:35
I'd have kept them first-person like Chronicles of Riddick. And I'd have made it some challenge added if a guard sees you before you reached him. Even if only for a second. Like maybe you'd have to hit the attack button a number of times to break through his own defenses.

But if it's a simple stealth kill from behind, I don't see any reason not to allow an insta-kill. If you get in close enough, and you remain unseen, there's no need to get all pissy about having no possibility of failure. And a nice realistic melee animation is a good reward.

NKD
5th Oct 2010, 07:40
As long as the challenge of actually getting in position and properly executing a takedown is in place, I'm fine with the current system. I just don't want to see people running around insta-gibbing everyone with no thought.

Pinky_Powers
5th Oct 2010, 07:51
I just don't want to see people running around insta-gibbing everyone with no thought.

That would be a hideous display for a Deus Ex game. :D

NKD
5th Oct 2010, 07:58
That would be a hideous display for a Deus Ex game. :D

Yeah. If you want to run around insta-gibbing everyone you should have to use the GEP gun takedown. It's always the most silent way to eliminate Manderley.

One example is in Assassin's Creed 2. Get above some guys and do a leaping double stab with the hidden blades, that's minus two guys. Then before they can get their defenses up, you can manually stab two more guys in succession without them ever blocking your hidden blade, I've even managed to take out 3 guys after the initial two without any resistance.

That's just too easy. Five guys with zero risk. I doubt we'll see the same behavior in DXHR though.

Corpus
5th Oct 2010, 08:29
Well from what we've seen in the gameplay if you're spotted and they fire at you, you're gonna take a ton of damage. God forbid they throw us in god mode during a takedown. I hated that with the VATS system in fallout.

Ashpolt
5th Oct 2010, 08:57
If you set aside the issue of the transition to third person perspective and the issue of such takedowns as not being in the spirit of the original Deus Ex, which is of course its own argument, I just don't see the takedowns as being inappropriate.

So let me get this straight - if you take away the arguments specific to the inclusion of takedowns in this particular game, then you're OK with it? All that is saying is that takedowns are appropriate for "some games." No-one's arguing that they're a terrible gameplay mechanic overall, just that the level of automation- the game doing it for you, rather than you doing it - and the switch in perspective is not suitable for a Deus Ex game. You can't set aside those issues, because if you do, you set aside the point entirely. Of course takedowns are fine for some games - Assassin's Creed's fast pace would suffer if every fight had to be a proper duel, for instance - but we're not talking about "some games", we're talking about DXHR in particular.


Well from what we've seen in the gameplay if you're spotted and they fire at you, you're gonna take a ton of damage.

How exactly did you see this in the gameplay we've seen, pray tell, when all the publicly released gameplay footage has been played with damage turned off?

ThePrecursor
5th Oct 2010, 09:02
The damage wasn't turned off, Adam just couldn't die. He did take damage.

tartarus_sauce
5th Oct 2010, 09:09
I like where this thread is going. Good, constructive responses guys.

The Arkham Asylum takedowns were sweet, but obviously Deus Ex is a very different animal. I think by default all takedowns are "stealth" for the straightforward reason that Adam isn't a melee fighter. I mean, Adam just wouldn't engage in a lengthy melee battle with enemy guys, so it makes non-stealth takedowns superfluous.

While I would generally approve of sticking to first person, I think in the case of the dual wrist blades it wouldn't have worked. If you look at the double takedown animations already on the table, you would hardly see anything at all from the first person perspective. This is why I ultimately don't complain about the third person perspective. In real life, you have a sense of where your limbs are in space. In a game, unless you can physically see your limbs, nothing you do with them really registers. That's why the third person is in some ways more immersive than a strict first person perspective- you gain a sense of yourself occupying space in an environment.

My understanding is that doing these takedowns will cost energy, and you won't be invulnerable during the animations. This will definitely prevent any running around and insta-gibbing, which was a real problem in Alpha Protocol and the later Splinter Cell games.

And I do think you can set aside the "are takedowns consistent with the spirit of the original Deus Ex games?" because you can have an interesting, productive conversation without asking that question. The purpose of this thread is to address the implementation of takedowns, not the question of whether they should exist in the first place. As to the question of how one can know that Jensen takes damage during these animations, I think it was implied in the PC Gamer feature on the game some months ago. I might be mistaken, though.

Irate_Iguana
5th Oct 2010, 09:35
What are your thoughts on how a takedown system should be implemented in this game?

My biggest problems with the system, apart from the fact that it switches perspective, are that you can disable multiple guards, you have no control over the animation and that it is a guaranteed success.

One of the biggest challenges in stealth games is how to deal with multiple guards. Since single guards are easy prey. Two guards are much harder. If you can kill multiple guards at the same time you have just turned them all into single guards. If nothing else I would like to make multiple takedowns a very high level of augmentation. Something that you can´t do unless you really spend points.

Secondly, I hate the fact that you have no idea whatsoever what the animation is going to be for your next takedown. There is no control. If you need a fast takedown for any reason you had better hope that the game wants to use that one. I don´t like it when I´m failing because the game keeps choosing a lengthy animation for me when I want something fast. It adds annoyance and not complexity.

Finally, there is the point that you will succeed. If you can get close, even if they noticed you, it will be successful. in DX success wasn´t guaranteed by just being near a guard. You also had to have good aim. You could screw up even when you managed to get close.




My understanding is that doing these takedowns will cost energy, and you won't be invulnerable during the animations.

Since there are no melee weapons and the first energy pip will regenerate it is safe to say that some manner of takedown will always be available. We haven´t heard anything concrete about the energy usage of the takedowns in particular.

There has been no mention whatsoever about vulnerability during takedowns. We have no control whatsoever about which takedown the game will choose for us. You could want to remove a guard quickly and quietly but the game decides that it wants to use a very long and slow takedown. Now another guard comes around the corner while you are stuck in that cinematic. He pumps you full of holes and you die because you have no control. Not exactly fantastic gameplay.

Ashpolt
5th Oct 2010, 09:48
The damage wasn't turned off, Adam just couldn't die. He did take damage.

The only time we see any damage indicator is when he's fighting the boxguard at the end, and getting peppered with minigun fire. Previously to that, we don't see anything of the sort. As such, if we're basing assumptions on how easy it is to die on the gameplay we've seen, then the answer is: it's not. You're a bullet sponge, and it takes a minigun to hurt you.


While I would generally approve of sticking to first person, I think in the case of the dual wrist blades it wouldn't have worked. If you look at the double takedown animations already on the table, you would hardly see anything at all from the first person perspective.

Single takedowns could work fine in first person - see AvP, Riddick, Mirror's Edge, etc. If double takedowns don't, the solution is to get rid of double takedowns, not to put takedowns into third person.


And I do think you can set aside the "are takedowns consistent with the spirit of the original Deus Ex games?" because you can have an interesting, productive conversation without asking that question.

Sure you can. But it would not be about this game. Divorced from context, you're discussing some hypothetical "any game", not discussing Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Discuss takedowns with specific reference to this game, and like it or not, you're bringing in the context with all the baggage that entails.

II J0SePh X II
5th Oct 2010, 10:42
When you're in takedown range, pull left trigger to get the guard in a choke hold, then tap A for a non-lethal takedown or hold A for a lethal takedown. It's not rocket soyance.

NKD
5th Oct 2010, 14:01
Single takedowns could work fine in first person - see AvP, Riddick, Mirror's Edge, etc. If double takedowns don't, the solution is to get rid of double takedowns, not to put takedowns into third person.

That's a very bad design approach that has sunk more than one game. "Well we can't fit it aesthetically into what we were planning, so we're going to cut the feature entirely or prune it down." Form must follow function. If functionality you want is not being reflected properly visually, you change the visuals, not the functionality.

sonicsidewinder
5th Oct 2010, 14:01
When you're in takedown range, pull left trigger to get the guard in a choke hold, then tap A for a non-lethal takedown or hold A for a lethal takedown. It's not rocket soyance.

Aye. Controll over takedowns is much better than no controll.

What if you wanted to drag a guard away before you took him out silently? You can't. That would have been a great improvement over the old games. There was always the possibility of being seen during the DE cqc. But at least the whole process of walking up to a guy and smacking him was quick which gave you more time. Now with these HR takedowns your left there standing like an arse-hole emenating with egotistical manliness.

"Hugh..Thats you down...i'm so good, i'll just stand here all 3rd person like...hit me now? I'll just re-gen, Hugh..."
-Back to fps, if your not already dead.

Oh crap wait. NOW you gtta hide the body...

Ashpolt
5th Oct 2010, 14:52
That's a very bad design approach that has sunk more than one game. "Well we can't fit it aesthetically into what we were planning, so we're going to cut the feature entirely or prune it down." Form must follow function. If functionality you want is not being reflected properly visually, you change the visuals, not the functionality.

Normally (and in principle) I'd agree with you 100%, but in this instance the functionality is not worth the visual change, as neither in this instance is desirable. Also, third person is itself a functional change, not just a visual one, as has been discussed in other topics before.

jcd3nt0n
5th Oct 2010, 15:40
My main takedown weapons :cool:

Police Baton
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/3038/baton.th.jpg (http://img543.imageshack.us/i/baton.jpg/)

Stun Prod
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3458/prodf.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/prodf.jpg/)

Crossbow ( only tranquilizer darts! )
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1135/crossbowtranquilizerdar.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/crossbowtranquilizerdar.jpg/)

I'm a philanthropist! :friends::cheek::group_hug:

Blade_hunter
5th Oct 2010, 15:51
I agree with Iguana overall the fact that aiming is practically useless makes the takedowns too easy to do and succeed.
I don't mind to have a multiple kills / knocks as long as there is a player skill involved for its success. I'm not saying that innocently, because we can achieve multiple kills knocks with weapons and they require skill even if some of them are easier to use due to a splash damage though, but look a railgun can kill two people or more of they are lined up and if we have the proper position to make a double kill ...
For me a proper melee system is what I want, if people do a swing by aiming the opponents' heads and kill them in a row that's much more acceptable than, pressing a button nearby somebody and kill them in a row. The difference ?
The first case I need to aim and even do a proper move with a proper timing and positioning in addition to get in range, the second everything is automatic as long as there is a few conditions like having a character close to the other, and the only thing that last is the approach part so getting in range ...

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Oct 2010, 16:49
Melee weapons. Job done.

If you must have a cool looking takedown, make it happens in first person, and there is NO LOSS OF CONTROL.

AxiomaticBadger
5th Oct 2010, 17:35
I wouldn't change a thing. Maybe make them a bit quicker, but that's it.

nomotog
5th Oct 2010, 17:36
Melee weapons. Job done.

If you must have a cool looking takedown, make it happens in first person, and there is NO LOSS OF CONTROL.

Just because it happens in third person dosen't mean you have any less control then if it is in first person. Your logic just baffles me.

The only thing really missing from the take down system is being able us use them on aware guards.

Esnuk
5th Oct 2010, 17:37
What should I do about the takedowns, apart from watching them? :scratch: I mean, how J.C. would say: I don't understand.

Blade_hunter
5th Oct 2010, 18:46
The takedowns works against aware guards as well as against unaware ones, that's not stealth kills.
As for the takedowns in therms of control, we loose the control in any way, if that's a special move that doesn't require the full body, then we have always control on at least a part of our body.

neoWilks
5th Oct 2010, 18:58
Just because it happens in third person doesn't mean you have any less control then if it is in first person. Your logic just baffles me.

I don't think that POM was suggesting one follows from the other. Rather retaining control of your character is to be in addition to the first person view.

Really, I'd just like some dedicated melee weapons. As someone who played by DX and DX: Invisible War primarily as a melee specialist, I think it's bull**** that I'm forced into using takedowns if I want to get up close and personal with my targets. If they'd just give me some additional option for melee I wouldn't so much care about the takedown mechanics.

nomotog
5th Oct 2010, 19:01
The takedowns works against aware guards as well as against unaware ones, that's not stealth kills.
As for the takedowns in therms of control, we loose the control in any way, if that's a special move that doesn't require the full body, then we have always control on at least a part of our body.

If they are only for stealth kills that leaves out the option of going Rambo with your arm blades. That is what I think would be missing.

As for control. He said it would be different if it was first person. A scripted attack is the same lack of control in first person or third person. I was just wondering what his thinking was.

ZakKa89
5th Oct 2010, 19:16
enough threads about takedowns please.

Esnuk
5th Oct 2010, 19:20
enough threads about takedowns please.

I fully agree.

Mad Madigan
5th Oct 2010, 19:31
I'm still uncertain as to my feelings regarding DXHR's third person take-downs (I just haven't seen enough in-game footage of them to really make up my mind; the "gameplay" demo just feels so scripted). The notion that it's not feasible to have first-person take-downs is a bit silly though, for the reasons mentions and examples given by previous posters in this thread.

Here's something that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet: Condemned - Criminal Origins. That game featured almost entirely melee combat and was only in first-person. It also had take-downs where if you surprised an enemy or stunned them you could select a take-down to perform, all of which were also in first-person. Sure, it's no Batman: AA, but it was still a fun game with ingenuous first-person melee combat, and another example of how such a system could work.

Dead-Eye
5th Oct 2010, 19:48
Well, I mentioned it before in a thread I started but I think takedowns should be heavily skill point related.

So tear one skill level would only allow a player to takeout one guard at a time and said guard would need to be unaware. At the same time the skill points invested would also dictate the speed at which takedowns happen. So higher skill would reduce the time of takedowns. Thus if a player wanted to go the takedown rout they would need to invest skillpoints into them.

Also if you are holding a gun at the time Adam should just do one of those first person gunbutt hits like in Halo. Completely in first person and ideally would knock out anyone who is not wearing a helmet if you hit them in the head on the first go.

I generally agree that removing melee weapons in place of takedowns was a bad idea. Maybe if the skill points in takedowns also increased the damage of melee weapons then I would be more on borad with the idea.

But it's current implementation looks like they are trying to copy MGS or splinter cell, which are worse games then Deus Ex in my opinion.

Kex
5th Oct 2010, 19:55
Woah melee weapons were removed? Gutted, mega gutted for that one.

Some of my favourite builds were the invisible silent assassin with a big ass sword.

I like the idea of skill points affecting the take down abilities, but without melee weapons I don't think there would be a point.
I very much liked the take downs in the original Killzone game though, there was an assasin you could play as that had some awesome take down moves with a knife, one for killing from behind, and one where you threw it at them, really immersive and extremely brutal, similar to Riddicks.

jkruse
5th Oct 2010, 20:15
I gotta say I really like the Chronicles of Riddick system. Still first person, you can still do them to an enemy that has spotted you, you just have to try a little harder. More or less, I agree with Pinky.

Mad Madigan pointed out Condemned, that had pretty good first person melee as well, I wouldn't mind seeing something like that.

nomotog
5th Oct 2010, 20:50
Well, I mentioned it before in a thread I started but I think takedowns should be heavily skill point related.

So tear one skill level would only allow a player to takeout one guard at a time and said guard would need to be unaware. At the same time the skill points invested would also dictate the speed at which takedowns happen. So higher skill would reduce the time of takedowns. Thus if a player wanted to go the takedown rout they would need to invest skillpoints into them.


We can't know for sure until after the game comes out, but I think this is almost exactly how they are doing them. You will have your arm blades and at level 1 they can only take down one guard. At level two, you can take down two guards. At level 3 you can take down guards wearing the big armor. Ect ect.

Blade_hunter
5th Oct 2010, 20:52
The take downs doesn't work against robots and against bosses

Fluffis
5th Oct 2010, 20:56
The take downs doesn't work against robots and against bosses

Of course not. With bosses you have to have a QTE.

AlexOfSpades
5th Oct 2010, 21:42
Of course not. With bosses you have to have a QTE.

No.

No..

NO...

NOOO!!!!!! (http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/)

Pinky_Powers
5th Oct 2010, 21:50
Of course not. With bosses you have to have a QTE.

I hope not! :eek:

There hasn't even been a hint of a quick time event thus far, so I'm hopeful! :o

Fluffis
5th Oct 2010, 21:59
I'm happy to see that some people agree with my thoughts on the subject. ;)

QTE is a complete crap-fest.

Pinky_Powers
5th Oct 2010, 22:07
I'm happy to see that some people agree with my thoughts on the subject. ;)

QTE is a complete crap-fest.

I couldn't agree more.

Even in games where you'd expect them to work well, like Force Unleashed, it's always a gross, frustrating pain in the ass!

IOOI
5th Oct 2010, 22:39
That's a very bad design approach that has sunk more than one game. "Well we can't fit it aesthetically into what we were planning, so we're going to cut the feature entirely or prune it down." Form must follow function. If functionality you want is not being reflected properly visually, you change the visuals, not the functionality.

Not necessarily. *Function can follow form* if that's what you intend and in this case it would be about delivering a similar experience. Third-Person takedowns change that experience.
It wouldn't be bad design in HR's case, it would be about improving based on a precedente.

And that's why some of us have been saying that this is a *design philosophy* problem. HR Lead Designer Dugas has a different way of tackling the problem from DX Lead Designer Warren Spector.

Fluffis
5th Oct 2010, 22:44
I couldn't agree more.

Even in games where you'd expect them to work well, like Force Unleashed, it's always a gross, frustrating pain in the ass!

It makes it even worse when there is no real punishment for messing up - you just get to do it over and over, until you get it right. *shudders*

No, for me, it's bad enough that they have forced Boss Fights (I seriously don't like that concept, and never did - the game "stops" for an Awesome Fight™ to show off your Cool Moves®) - if there is QTE it may actually turn out to be the proverbial "last straw".

Blade_hunter
5th Oct 2010, 22:54
I think you have much more to empty bullets on them second what they said about them.
So you should have at least one lethal weapon that can be efficient for hard fights.
As for the takedowns they are close to be QTEs, the only thing they doesn't have is the intermediate and stupid sequence of pressing a button like a crazy.

OwlSolar
5th Oct 2010, 23:17
Of course not. With bosses you have to have a QTE.
Honestly, I'd prefer it if you could use a takedown when you get close, and make it more of a challenge to actually get close.

AlexOfSpades
5th Oct 2010, 23:24
I want my bosses just like Walton Simons.

No huge stuff, no scripted deaths, no QTE's.

1x1, up close and personal. Face to face. Like a man.

No takedowns. Just me and him - and let the guns do the talk.

NKD
5th Oct 2010, 23:25
I want my bosses just like Walton Simons.

No huge stuff, no scripted deaths, no QTE's.

1x1, up close and personal. Face to face. Like a man.

No takedowns. Just me and him - and let the guns do the talk.

But what if I don't up my combat augments? :(

AlexOfSpades
5th Oct 2010, 23:26
Then you go in stealth and run away, or stun his arse!

OwlSolar
5th Oct 2010, 23:28
I want my bosses just like Walton Simons.

No huge stuff, no scripted deaths, no QTE's.

1x1, up close and personal. Face to face. Like a man.

No takedowns. Just me and him - and let the guns do the talk.
For me, that boss fight was about me getting close to him and pushing a button stabbing him in the face.

pringlepower
5th Oct 2010, 23:47
I want my bosses just like Walton Simons.

No huge stuff, no scripted deaths, no QTE's.

1x1, up close and personal. Face to face. Like a man.

No takedowns. Just me and him - and let the guns do the talk.

So anticlimactic though. If he's a boss, he should be different than the hundreds of grunts I just slugged through to get to him, other than just having more hp.

Fluffis
6th Oct 2010, 00:09
So anticlimactic though. If he's a boss, he should be different than the hundreds of grunts I just slugged through to get to him, other than just having more hp.

I don't know... For me, that fight was a huge realization. Since I did it the way OwlSolar did, I noticed that I had built up Simons to be this awesome, complete badass. I had built up him and Page as some kind of demons/devils/what have you. Then I found out that, for all his augmentations, he was still just a human (petty, vindictive and arrogant) and died just as easily as anyone else. It also served to reinforce that JC is much more than that.

TrickyVein
6th Oct 2010, 00:12
Can you imagine if Simons had like, three different "forms" that he'd morph into as you fought him?

pringlepower
6th Oct 2010, 00:15
Can you imagine if Simons had like, three different "forms" that he'd morph into as you fought him?

Not forms necessarily. It'd be nice if he used his augs like... once.

OwlSolar
6th Oct 2010, 00:18
Come to think of it, how many of your own augs are that useful in combat? The noticable ones, I mean. It's not hard to believe that he was using damage reduction augs during the fight.

pringlepower
6th Oct 2010, 00:19
Come to think of it, how many of your own augs are that useful in combat? The noticable ones, I mean. It's not hard to believe that he was using damage reduction augs during the fight.

The one that exploded explosives before they reach you, maybe running faster, uh...

Yeah now that I think about it a lot of augs were just stat boosts.

AlexOfSpades
6th Oct 2010, 00:19
Anyone played DMC4 here and fought the Dante vs Nero fight at Mission 11?

No scripted death scenes (like "throw him in the lava to cause damage)... just serious combos.

Or SAX in Metroid Fusion?

KSingh77
6th Oct 2010, 01:15
(Press A to yank Barrett's arm gun off and shoot him with it.)

OwlSolar
6th Oct 2010, 01:22
I don't like what the idea would do to the gameplay, but I have to admit, it would be very satisfying to do that.

Pinky_Powers
6th Oct 2010, 01:32
Boss fights for Human Revolution... in my wildest moments of imagination, I still can't summon an idea of what they might be like.
Will they be like DX1, or Metal Gear Solid? I just don't know. :hmm:

Fluffis
6th Oct 2010, 02:56
Boss fights for Human Revolution... in my wildest moments of imagination, I still can't summon an idea of what they might be like.
Will they be like DX1, or Metal Gear Solid? I just don't know. :hmm:

I'd be more at ease about the whole thing if I heard anything about there being multiple ways of dealing with bosses. At least two (direct confrontation with weapons and something in the vein of the killphrases in DX) but preferably three or four (non-lethal and escape).

pringlepower
6th Oct 2010, 03:05
I'd be more at ease about the whole thing if I heard anything about there being multiple ways of dealing with bosses. At least two (direct confrontation with weapons and something in the vein of the killphrases in DX) but preferably three or four (non-lethal and escape).

Hopefully it'll be like DX where you can run away from only certain battles. Can't run away from all your problems now. Also the environment should play a role.

Blade_hunter
6th Oct 2010, 09:21
It won't you are forced to fight and kill them in order, as for killphrases it's even impossible to think about them, you need to have a conversation with the said boss, then even if you kill it, you avoid confrontation. a thing that won't happen. expecting DX 1 in that area or even better is pure blind dream

Facebyface
6th Oct 2010, 10:56
It won't you are forced to fight and kill them in order, as for killphrases it's even impossible to think about them, you need to have a conversation with the said boss, then even if you kill it, you avoid confrontation. a thing that won't happen. expecting DX 1 in that area or even better is pure blind dream

I always thought one thing that could've been interesting in the original Deus Ex is if you'd played it before and knew Gunther's kill code, you could type it in chat. Sort of a hearken back to old text based days as well as allowing you a faster replay.

El_Bel
6th Oct 2010, 12:06
Yeap, we never see Simons activate his Aggressive-Defensive System Augmentation, leading to one GEP shot kill.

Blade_hunter
6th Oct 2010, 13:10
I agree if Simmons had the augmentation the fight would be more interesting than what we had.
Deus Ex had the right thing about the avoidance of the boss fight, but I think the possibilities were somewhat lacking IMO
Like knocking them, so we defeat them but without killing them (so we can see them later if they want to fight again), using some kind of trick against them, against walton simmons I remember the electrified railway, against gunther I remember to attract him in the storage in paris where I've set all the turrets to kill my foes, the killphrases that we have to get by choosing the right options or with some exploration.
The use of takedowns is a very bad idea, I hate their whole concept, I preferred that they were vulnerable to non lethal weapons and we knock them but they can come back if the plot wants it in that case.

For me the best thing is expanding the Deus Ex concept, rather than reducing it. and We know the tools

Now some people will say, about why knocking them if we don't absolutely get rid of them. We can always add some tweaks in that area and even adding some interesting plot twists and probably rewards.
For example if we go away from a boss, in the next encounter we have with him he will get stronger
If we knock them however they will have newer abilities, and not gain strength I mean the boss will be more fearful towards us because we have defeated them.
As for interesting plot twists, they can be numerous.
As for rewards how about taking their own augmentations ? If didn't damaged them knocking them will give us the possibility to have more chance to have intact augmentations.

People throwed interesting ideas, and I don't know why EM isn't using them :(

Jerion
6th Oct 2010, 14:02
If given the chance to design the takedowns my way, I would make at this time make only a single alteration to the existing HR model (at least what I have seen of it), and I wouldn't be too attached to old-style melee.

What I'd do would be to put the takedowns in first person, though keeping the kickass contextual animations. Not for any sake of "immersion" (I'm starting to loathe that word) but rather because it would be more synchronous with the rest of the gameplay, making for a contiguous if somewhat less cinematic presentation.

My $0.02

J

Slack
6th Oct 2010, 14:28
I believe that automatic takedowns cut the immersion because you cannot fail: i mean, once you sneak up correctly you will kill the guy, nothing can go wrong, so for me it is a problem. If all that kind of 'games suffer from the same kind of ridiculous moments where you manage to sneak up behind someone and either bash away at them repeatedly like a child trying to pop a balloon ' I think it's time to Deus Ex : HR show something new, and not just copy the other games (in this aspect), I think they could show somenthing new in this aspect.

beastosterone
6th Oct 2010, 16:04
Yep.

The sense to expect the unexpected. That's what aids immersion and complexity.

If you know that all you need to do is press one button to kill someone flawlessly? How can you ever expect anything unique or surprising to happen? How is that at all interesting? It's not. The only purpose it serves is to give you a death-boner and make you "feel like a bad ass", without actually being one.

JCDentonMale
6th Oct 2010, 17:52
I personally don't mind about the takedowns if they can be avoided. There should be some kind of logic in the game: for the hacker and silent type player, don't put a guy to kill in front of every computer of interest, and make killing a choice, not an uncontrolled behavior of Adam.

Pinky_Powers
6th Oct 2010, 19:23
and make killing a choice, not an uncontrolled behavior of Adam.

Killing is a choice for the player. Even in takedowns, you can choose lethal or nonlethal. You can choose to avoid him completely.

Blade_hunter
6th Oct 2010, 19:49
Yep.

The sense to expect the unexpected. That's what aids immersion and complexity.

If you know that all you need to do is press one button to kill someone flawlessly? How can you ever expect anything unique or surprising to happen? How is that at all interesting? It's not. The only purpose it serves is to give you a death-boner and make you "feel like a bad ass", without actually being one.

That's the problem an my main criticism of the system, the correction of the view is welcome and probably the easiest thing to do about the takedowns. but it won't remove the "skill less" part.

DavidPlisken
6th Oct 2010, 21:54
I find the Metal Gear Solid 4 takedowns to be the best, especially online where you can upgrade this feat.
You can either choke someone unconcious or choose to slith his throat. Very immersive, very satisfying.
And in the spirit of Deus Ex you have a choice to kill them or let them live.

tartarus_sauce
6th Oct 2010, 22:26
Well, removing takedowns entirely, or removing double takedowns, isn't terribly interesting. And it's absurd to sneak up behind someone and not get a guaranteed kill. Let's remember that there was a guaranteed kill situation in the original Deus Ex: sneak up on someone and prod their ass. The only difference now is that you don't necessarily need to sneak up on them, you just need to get within melee distance. But given the wrist blades, what scenario not involving dumb luck would prevent insta-death for any guard that got close? Especially since the wrist blades are concealed, so the guard can't really plan on how to deal with them until it's already over?

Broadening this up though, how many people here would like a robust melee system? It always bothered me how useless the melee was in Deus Ex. Then again, there aren't many interesting melee fps games out there. Even Mirror's Edge, which I think has done that the best thus far, had its flaws, and it had insta-kill opportunities too (catch 'em from behind or the disarms).

I'm just a little skeptical that you could remove the takedown system as implemented in DXHR without either building a very sophisticated melee combat system from the ground up or having to go back to the super lame, pathetic melee combat of the original. That's why I support the existing takedown system. It's the best compromise between cost, complexity, and kickassery.

There have been some good suggestions for improvement, like maybe being able to choose the length of the takedowns to minimize the exposure time. But how do we know that all takedowns don't take about the same amount of time? Can someone go into the footage and count the seconds?

Jerion
7th Oct 2010, 14:46
...But how do we know that all takedowns don't take about the same amount of time? Can someone go into the footage and count the seconds?

I'm with you on the rest of it, but I should point out two things:

1) That a much larger sample of timings than what is available in the gameplay trailer is needed to calculate an average time for takedowns. :)

2) Anybody remotely worth their salt in DX could get a guaranteed melee kill as long as they snuck up on the NPC, as you said. This is also the case here following the bit that Adam can't really take any kind of rapidly sustained damage at all. If you don't sneak up on them prior to melee-takedown, they'll almost certainly drop you. I guess if there was only one guard with a weak weapon you could rush him, but that's not too absurd either IMO.

beastosterone
7th Oct 2010, 16:06
So you're saying that DXHR is catering to people that aren't worth their salt?

OwlSolar
7th Oct 2010, 23:43
The way I see it, they're avoiding discrimination against people who aren't worth their salt. :p

AxiomaticBadger
8th Oct 2010, 13:51
Remember that takedowns need to compete with firearms for effectiveness. If they're too weak, or have a chance of failure, then there's no reason not just to simply unload your shotgun point-blank into thier sinuses instead.

Ilves
8th Oct 2010, 14:15
Hey, when Belletete says (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfdeVu15WCY&feature=related) (00:09:10) that



You can actually perform all of those takedowns in a non lethal way. [...] You get to do that funky stuff without killing anybody, and still gain the reward of pulling off those cool moves.

does he mean that for both non lethal and lethal the same animation will play, only the outcome will be different? :scratch:

Blade_hunter
8th Oct 2010, 14:57
The animation will be different if adam use his blades you will have a lethal takedown, if he punch people then you will have a non lethal takedown.
PS: I don't say that in relation to belletete's video, just about informations I have.

So the animation will be different second you do a lethal or non lethal takedown.

As for complexity, if people thinks takedowns are complex, then they doesn't know what complexity is, because even a lame melee system is more complex as long as there is proper moves and a damage system that allow some things the outcome much more different than a binary system, and also the way to achieve it.
As for their effectiveness it depends if for you losing control in a certain moment is a good idea.
As for a reminder, some takedowns uses a slow motion to show them.

Pinky_Powers
8th Oct 2010, 22:39
As for complexity, if people thinks takedowns are complex, then they doesn't know what complexity is, because even a lame melee system is more complex

I agree, there's really nothing complex about HR's takedowns.

But then, complexity in stealth takedowns is really quite far from what I'd ever want. You sneak up to someone and you stab him, or choke him. That's all it needs to be.

pringlepower
8th Oct 2010, 22:52
I agree, there's really nothing complex about HR's takedowns.

But then, complexity in stealth takedowns is really quite far from what I'd ever want. You sneak up to someone and you stab him, or choke him. That's all it needs to be.

Complexity in melee combat more or less became obsolete once guard had... you know guns. If you can't take them out quickly enough they start to shoot you.

Blade_hunter
9th Oct 2010, 00:09
Complexity in melee combat more or less became obsolete once guard had... you know guns. If you can't take them out quickly enough they start to shoot you.

That's why it's interesting, dude, if you play stealth you have to be good on it, if you play combat you have to be good on it even with melee.
Pinky is suggesting stealth kills so if you want to make the takedown/instant kill, be stealthy until the end, if you want to fight or if you failed at stealth then melee or you have to retreat if you think the situation is turning wrong or because melee fight isn't the kind of combat you like to do.

Jerion
9th Oct 2010, 00:26
I agree, there's really nothing complex about HR's takedowns.

But then, complexity in stealth takedowns is really quite far from what I'd ever want. You sneak up to someone and you stab him, or choke him. That's all it needs to be.

Ditto. The biggest thrill is in the sneaking up!

NKD
9th Oct 2010, 01:05
Ditto. The biggest thrill is in the sneaking up!

That's how I feel as well. When I'm playing stealth, I want to play stealth, not Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat or something. I don't WANT involved melee combat. In fact, I want as little combat as possible. This isn't a game about a badass martial artist.

If I wanted my entire gameplay focus to revolve around besting someone in combat, I'd just get out my gun and start shooting.

beastosterone
9th Oct 2010, 02:33
The point is control.

I want to be in control. Not watch an immature cutscene for no other reason than to appeal to the dopes of gaming. I want to be in control. I want to have the risk of failure no matter how remote. That's what creates immersion and emergent gameplay.

Jerion
9th Oct 2010, 03:02
The point is control.

I want to be in control. Not watch an immature cutscene for no other reason than to appeal to the dopes of gaming. I want to be in control. I want to have the risk of failure no matter how remote. That's what creates immersion and emergent gameplay.

Unfortunately for you, the designers disagree. Sucks.

beastosterone
9th Oct 2010, 03:06
Unfortunately for the future of game design and general human intelligence and ability***

Sucks.

hem dazon 90
9th Oct 2010, 04:44
Unfortunately for the future of game design and general human intelligence and ability***

Sucks.

Cool ban evasion bro.

IOOI
9th Oct 2010, 04:46
Complexity in melee combat more or less became obsolete once guard had... you know guns. If you can't take them out quickly enough they start to shoot you.

Yes, because in DX everybody is a *guard* and has a *gun*. :rolleyes:

And that's where different types of NPC opponents would make a difference. Fighting and making a takedown on an augmented NPC should be different or less effective than doing it on a fully human one. There are other things to take in consideration like the NPC droping the weapon after a takedown, and if the takedown failed (frontal takedown for instance) the player would have the opportunity to fight him.

In a cyber-punk game with low-life scum I would expect to see some opponents like low-life street thugs lightly armed with knifes or pistols. If AJ happens to go to some dirty slum or obscure alley and encounters some of them I would expect it not to waste resources like ammo on them, and instead should use the environment and stealth-skills at his favour (sneaking, using see-through walls vision and blowing up lights or throwing flashbangs to reduce visibility).

Arm blades would never be a starting aug to me - though I don't know if they actually are. They are way overpowered. They should be the ultimate choice for those who prefer the stealth-assassin playstyle.
Instead the player should use a combat knife - inventory item - like in DX1. But the combat knife should break after some use (i.e.: from hitting too many hard bodies like armor) but it shouldn't break too early or when in combat, it should *only* break after a takedown (like a blunt stab to the chest). This would create moments where the player would need to improvise and fight or look for another knife.


Ditto. The biggest thrill is in the sneaking up!

And that's where you fail!

I mean in DX you could do that at least. :p
(Read what I wrote above.)

tartarus_sauce
9th Oct 2010, 04:58
That's what creates immersion and emergent gameplay.

...for you. That's what creates immersion... for you.

The thing is, you had a 100% insta-kill in the first Deus Ex with the prod and the sword. Plus priveleging emergent gameplay as being more intellectually challenging is kind of pathetic- there are other aspects of Deus Ex that challenge intelligence. The story and philosophical digressions, for example.

IOOI
9th Oct 2010, 05:10
...for you. That's what creates immersion... for you.

The thing is, you had a 100% insta-kill in the first Deus Ex with the prod and the sword. Plus priveleging emergent gameplay as being more intellectually challenging is kind of pathetic- there are other aspects of Deus Ex that challenge intelligence. The story and philosophical digressions, for example.

Funny thing is that I remember failing many times with the prod and sword - it was all dependent on skill level, if it wasn't a surprise attack or if it was poorly aimed.

Pinky_Powers
9th Oct 2010, 05:15
I'm freakin' loving where your mind's at today IOOI. If you were to put all these ideas into a single game, it would be a pure vision of greatness. There simply aren't games like that, and they're really should be.

Jerion
9th Oct 2010, 05:16
Funny thing is that I remember failing many times with the prod and sword - it was all dependent on skill level, if it wasn't a surprise attack or if it was poorly aimed.

Sure, you can fail with the nano sword if you're not careful about using it or don't have the upgraded skill or aug, but I have always thought it a bit silly that you could fail against a human target with a super-sharp lightsaber. :p

IOOI
9th Oct 2010, 05:33
Balance issues, not necessarily an excuse to throw melee out.

Jerion
9th Oct 2010, 05:35
Balance issues, not necessarily an excuse to throw melee out.

Didn't say it was such an excuse.

IOOI
9th Oct 2010, 05:47
^ Acknowledged.


I'm freakin' loving where your mind's at today IOOI. If you were to put all these ideas into a single game, it would be a pure vision of greatness. There simply aren't games like that, and they're really should be.

These are not necessarily new ideas, others here have exposed similar ones. A trip to the past of videogames and what they were trying to achieve would be enough.
I think we'll either need to let these generation of developers (and this console generation) fade out and expect a younger generation with passion for the things from the past to give it a chance (revivalism or a revamp) or expect older devs to be in charge of new teams.

Of course this is the dream and there are other things to take into account.

OwlSolar
9th Oct 2010, 06:03
Unfortunately for the future of game design and general human intelligence and ability***

Sucks.
The future of mankind depends on this game. :eek: No pressure, EM.

Good to have you back, by the way. ;)

beastosterone
9th Oct 2010, 06:43
Sure, you can fail with the nano sword if you're not careful about using it or don't have the upgraded skill or aug, but I have always thought it a bit silly that you could fail against a human target with a super-sharp lightsaber. :p

"if you're not careful"

"if you don't have the upgraded skill or aug"

What you're saying contradicts what you said earlier, then. There's clearly a sense of ability and reflexes that determine the outcome of a melee kill in DX. Both of which are removed with takedowns in DXHR. Thus, it's less complicated and thus easier and less complex. There's no fail state.

"I have always thought it a bit silly that you could fail against a human target with a super-sharp lightsaber"

Really? I think that remote chance of missing or failing emulates what can happen in real life, too. Someone might turn around at the last second, someone might have an instinct and move away, the strike sometimes might not be fatal.

Again, unlike in DXHR now, where you press one button and magically you will take them down, 100% of the time. It's stupid.


The future of mankind depends on this game. :eek: No pressure, EM.

Good to have you back, by the way. ;)

Yeah - congratulations on getting me banned for replying to your baiting. Successful troller is successful. Eidos got your back. :thumb:

Blade_hunter
9th Oct 2010, 07:47
Yes, because in DX everybody is a *guard* and has a *gun*. :rolleyes:

And that's where different types of NPC opponents would make a difference. Fighting and making a takedown on an augmented NPC should be different or less effective than doing it on a fully human one. There are other things to take in consideration like the NPC droping the weapon after a takedown, and if the takedown failed (frontal takedown for instance) the player would have the opportunity to fight him.

In a cyber-punk game with low-life scum I would expect to see some opponents like low-life street thugs lightly armed with knifes or pistols. If AJ happens to go to some dirty slum or obscure alley and encounters some of them I would expect it not to waste resources like ammo on them, and instead should use the environment and stealth-skills at his favour (sneaking, using see-through walls vision and blowing up lights or throwing flashbangs to reduce visibility).

Arm blades would never be a starting aug to me - though I don't know if they actually are. They are way overpowered. They should be the ultimate choice for those who prefer the stealth-assassin playstyle.
Instead the player should use a combat knife - inventory item - like in DX1. But the combat knife should break after some use (i.e.: from hitting too many hard bodies like armor) but it shouldn't break too early or when in combat, it should *only* break after a takedown (like a blunt stab to the chest). This would create moments where the player would need to improvise and fight or look for another knife.



And that's where you fail!

I mean in DX you could do that at least. :p
(Read what I wrote above.)

Thanks for the good post which I just agree with, but don't put the knife breakable if we can't repair it or replace it, that's a weapon that isn't very powerful

If poorly aimed the attack shouldn't be a success, and even some games with stealth takedowns doesn't allow the said takedown if not aimed overall at the enemy's back
Just a reminder the DX HR aren't stealth kills, as for complexity it should be complex and simple at the same time, not rushing a guard that even with a failed stealth can be takedowned with the same ease

Ilves
9th Oct 2010, 09:44
don't put the knife breakable if we can't repair it or replace it

Last thing DX suffered from was a shortage of cutlery... http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/9.gif

Blade_hunter
9th Oct 2010, 10:45
Yeah almost every enemy had it, that's even why in shifter that's fun to throw your damn knives at them :D

Decay
9th Oct 2010, 15:47
I would take down takedowns.

Anasumtj
9th Oct 2010, 17:30
Unfortunately for you, the designers disagree. Sucks.

Hey, let's shut down every argument on this board with smartass comments like this.

No point talking about anything, matter of fact!

OwlSolar
10th Oct 2010, 19:25
Let's face it, most arguments on this board are rather pointless anyway.


I would take down takedowns.
This guy is Chuck Norris. *Runs and hides*


Yeah - congratulations on getting me banned for replying to your baiting. Successful troller is successful.
Well, I would certainly hate to be a failure.

beastosterone
10th Oct 2010, 22:30
Let's face it, most arguments on this board are rather pointless anyway.

Sure, if you're plugging your ears and singing "la la la la" :)

Lots of legitimate and important musings and arguements on this forum, if you have a mind to understand them.

Bushmonster
11th Oct 2010, 00:45
i think he means pointless in a sense that EM wouldnt listen anyway

Kex
16th Oct 2010, 12:20
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAYaRj3vptI

Go to 2:19. This is how I'd like to see stealth kills in the game. These of course are for a FPS so they are much easier to do than I'd like them in DE, but I much prefer the FPPerspective.

Game is Killzone 1 for the PS2.

BigBoss
23rd Oct 2010, 20:19
That would be a hideous display for a Deus Ex game. :D

Why is there all this *****ing about instant takedowns? It's just like the mark and execute outcry from splinter cell conviction that "YOU WILL DO NOTHING BUT RUN AROUND ONE SHOTTING PPL!!!" No one is forcing you to use them, and if they are used in the game, it's your fault for being a ****ty gamer and succumbing to the mechanic. I went through conviction without using that cheap mechanic, and if I feel the takedowns don't work in this game, then I won't use it. What you guys want is for the game to be catered to you and take away OPTIONS THAT YOU DON"T HAVE TO USE from people that would want to use them. I can't think of a more selfish act at a basic level.

Kodaemon
23rd Oct 2010, 21:04
Actually it is takedowns that take away options, as they have replaced all melee combat.

BigBoss
23rd Oct 2010, 21:08
Actually it is takedowns that take away options, as they have replaced all melee combat.

the melee in deus ex was on the level of morrowind bad. You just follow me around to argue, don't you?

AlexOfSpades
23rd Oct 2010, 21:10
You dont actually expect a special agent fighting with sword or a crowbar, now do you?

Kodaemon
23rd Oct 2010, 21:14
Neither do I expect an agent fight with metal rulers attached to his forearms. Your point?

Also, since you mentioned the crowbar: now, that was kind of a logical choice for opening crates, wasn't it?

Or how about an agent using a good old army knife?

IOOI
23rd Oct 2010, 21:18
the melee in deus ex was on the level of morrowind bad.

That's no excuse to not improve it (and Hand-to-hand combat), especially when there are other games that made it so well.

As far as I'm aware that's another pillar that EM failed to comply with. ;)

Pinky_Powers
23rd Oct 2010, 21:25
My current playthrough of DX and Fallout New Vegas is a melee character. And I'm very saddened by the absence of this in Human Revolution.

I like stealth takedown animations, but I really wish there were still melee weapons in the game. Paul's weighted baton is an awesome placeholder until you get the Dragontooth. :D

IOOI
23rd Oct 2010, 21:29
You dont actually expect a special agent fighting with sword or a crowbar, now do you?

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but don't go that way. This is still a game.

There are things that don't need to aim to be realistic. *DX has its own universe.*
DX is still an RPG, made of a great interactive world, so if you happen to find a sword, a crowbar or even a simple knife you should be able to use it.


EDIT: Even if we weren't able to do all the the fantastic combat moves we see in action movies, there still should be something for the HTH/Melee player.

BigBoss
23rd Oct 2010, 21:46
I think we aren't at a generation of consoles yet where we can have a game with perfect stealth, social, fps, rpg, stats, melee combat, branching story, multiple ending and good ai mechanics all included. Most games only focus on maybe 2 of these things, so the fact that deus ex hr is going for most of these, I would rather they simplify the melee then spend time on it when most of the players will either be shooting, sneaking, or talking their way through the game

IOOI
23rd Oct 2010, 22:48
I just don't want to see people running around insta-gibbing everyone with no thought.

There was a way to prevent that in DX. If you blew up other NPCs (gibbing) you'd loose the loot (important items like nanokeys, for instance) and that would make you play the game differently and improvise.

For HR, even if they didn't include gibbing, they could've made keys, notes and other important items among the loot to get damaged/disappear when a NPC is caught by an explosion. That would make the players think twice before "blowing" someone up.

IOOI
23rd Oct 2010, 22:55
I think we aren't at a generation of consoles yet where we can have a game with perfect stealth, social, fps, rpg, stats, melee combat, branching story, multiple ending and good ai mechanics all included. Most games only focus on maybe 2 of these things, so the fact that deus ex hr is going for most of these, I would rather they simplify the melee then spend time on it when most of the players will either be shooting, sneaking, or talking their way through the game

Deus Ex had a little bit for everyone, even if it wasn't perfect. :hmm:

OwlSolar
24th Oct 2010, 17:44
...Your point being? BigBoss was saying the same about Human Revolution.


I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but don't go that way. This is still a game.
I'm going to be keeping this quote for reference whenever someone complains about realism.

IOOI
24th Oct 2010, 18:01
...Your point being? BigBoss was saying the same about Human Revolution.

I don't see any melee/HTH combat in HR. And this was on DX, the supposed *model* for a DX game that we played and enjoyed, right!? :hmm:

This is my point.


I'm going to be keeping this quote for reference whenever someone complains about realism.

*Deus Ex has its own universe.*
Didn't you get that? :scratch:

If you want to screw up an established universe make a new IP or call it a *spin-off*.



Damn kids!

OwlSolar
24th Oct 2010, 23:27
There wasn't any melee combat in Deus Ex either. Sure, there were different weapons and all, but I would hardly call it combat.

Yes, by the way. I did get that. I was agreeing with you. :rasp:

Deus_Ex_Machina
24th Oct 2010, 23:49
What would I do about takedowns?

I'd get rid of them COMPLETELY and go back to the original DX melee combat system.

BigBoss
25th Oct 2010, 03:05
What would I do about takedowns?

I'd get rid of them COMPLETELY and go back to the original DX melee combat system.

Talk about a step in the wrong direction.......and for the next bond game they should just use the goldeneye mechanics! Oh wait, that would be retarded

Deus_Ex_Machina
25th Oct 2010, 03:50
Talk about a step in the wrong direction.......and for the next bond game they should just use the goldeneye mechanics! Oh wait, that would be retarded

My opinion is my opinion.

Whether or not you agree with it, it is neither right nor wrong, as right and wrong are simply perspectives.

BigBoss
25th Oct 2010, 04:57
My opinion is my opinion.

Whether or not you agree with it, it is neither right nor wrong, as right and wrong are simply perspectives.

That's deep man

Pinky_Powers
25th Oct 2010, 05:10
That's deep man

Deep or not, it's clearly something you need to meditate on.

Kodaemon
25th Oct 2010, 06:07
Talk about a step in the wrong direction.......and for the next bond game they should just use the goldeneye mechanics! Oh wait, that would be retarded

There is a REASON Goldeneye is the most popular Bond game.

See what I did there?

OwlSolar
25th Oct 2010, 06:45
There is a REASON Goldeneye is the most popular Bond game.
Is it nostalgia? :p

BigBoss
25th Oct 2010, 22:59
Is it nostalgia? :p

I think that's it, cuz seriously....goldeneye isn't really that fun anymore

Jerion
25th Oct 2010, 23:01
It's gotta be nostalgia. Everyone loved fragging their friends in Goldeneye.

OwlSolar
26th Oct 2010, 04:17
I personally love the mission/objective system. You don't see many games that do that anymore.

BigBoss
26th Oct 2010, 08:49
I personally love the mission/objective system. You don't see many games that do that anymore.

What do you mean by this?