PDA

View Full Version : DRM and Steam



binlargin
30th Sep 2010, 12:08
Will this game have limited activations, or will we own it and be able to sell it second hand?

Will it be available on Steam?

Kodaemon
30th Sep 2010, 12:53
It will be available on Steam, but there's no word on whether Steam is forced on the boxed version as well.

Blade_hunter
30th Sep 2010, 14:04
This is probably the kind of info that we will got near the release of the game.

NKD
30th Sep 2010, 14:29
Yeah it's likely that some of this stuff isn't even finalized yet, but I imagine DRM will be similar if not identical to other Eidos titles.

mad825
30th Sep 2010, 15:43
I contacted SE about this and got:

That information has not yet been announced or we are not able to comment at this time. Please stay up to date on our website (www.SQUARE-ENIX.com/NA) for up to date information on our titles (both current and upcoming). We apologize we cannot assist further at this time.
no surprise but personally I just hope it's just sercuROM

Remington
30th Sep 2010, 18:22
no surprise but personally I just hope it's just not sercuROM

There, fixed.

mad825
30th Sep 2010, 18:27
There, fixed.

No :hmm:

sercuROM is far easily removed/tricked than the other types of DRM available like Steam or GFWL

MrFoxter
30th Sep 2010, 18:55
I personally prefer Steam. SecuROM makes me juggle my precious game discs while with Steam I can just play when I want. What is your problem with uninstalling Steam? Far easier than getting rid of SecuROM :)

Shralla
30th Sep 2010, 19:31
No :hmm:

sercuROM is far easily removed/tricked than the other types of DRM available like Steam or GFWL

Yeah, and unlike Steam, it's practically a malicious program that limits your activations and harvests user data without your permission.

I can see how it's much more awesome than Steam, hatred of which typically falls under "Man I sure do hate things that are ridiculously convenient and useful."

mad825
30th Sep 2010, 19:32
What is your problem with uninstalling Steam?
you can no longer play Steam enabled games?:rolleyes:

Yeah, and unlike Steam, it's practically a malicious program that limits your activations and harvests user data without your permission.
*faceplam*
who doesn't collect data without your permission these days? hell even MS OS does, this is including the Mac also Steam is no exception to this, read the T&C for once in your life.
limit activations? meh, unless your going on-line or over LAN it's not a problem even then it can easily be "fixed" for LAN purposes


I can see how it's much more awesome than Steam, hatred of which typically falls under "Man I sure do hate things that are ridiculously convenient and useful.".
*cough*
fanboy alert.
it's sure useful if Steam stops me from playing the games I brought :/

Dead-Eye
30th Sep 2010, 19:47
I don't see this thread getting out of hand. :rasp:

sonicsidewinder
30th Sep 2010, 19:51
Steam is a great service that shouldnt be bashed. Especially when it's a big part of what keeps the whole pc-gaming heart pumping.

AlexOfSpades
30th Sep 2010, 19:51
I think we already discussed these matters on another thread... or was it in the Thief 4 forums? Nevermind!

Anyways i like Steam~ its useful and practical

I dont have anything against it.

I'd just Hate if it was FORCED on Steam like HL² or Portal. Now, really.

I like to bring my computer to the living room and connect it to the TV using that special cable. I dont have internet there ~ how could i play hl2 then?

If its availabe in Steam AND in regular box, then i'm happy.

Decho
30th Sep 2010, 20:00
Impulse Reactor - my favourite form of DRM, no need to have the client program going to run the game, only needed to get patches. Good balance imo, though GOG's DRM is still the best ;)

Edit: @AlexofSpades - if you know you're going to do it then put Steam into offline mode, then you're good to go.

MrFoxter
30th Sep 2010, 20:08
I like to bring my computer to the living room and connect it to the TV using that special cable. I dont have internet there ~ how could i play hl2 then?

Steam has really nice offline mode. All you need to do is just activating your game via internet once and then you can play offline. No need to switch to offline mode before you are actually offline, so you can just take your computer and go anywhere you want. I play on notebook and I'm often without connection, so I find offline mode quite useful :)
___

Anyway, don't you smell something burning in this thread? :lmao:

St. Mellow
30th Sep 2010, 21:08
Here we go again.

Fluffis
30th Sep 2010, 21:31
This again? Geez.

Shralla
30th Sep 2010, 22:37
who doesn't collect data without your permission these days? hell even MS OS does, this is including the Mac also Steam is no exception to this, read the T&C for once in your life.

Hey guess what? If it's in the "T&C" then no, it isn't without your permission.


limit activations? meh, unless your going on-line or over LAN it's not a problem even then it can easily be "fixed" for LAN purposes

Going online, you mean like SecuROM does every single time you play any game that has it?


fanboy alert.

Wow, I'm sorry that I'm a fan of something that allows me to buy games cheaper than anywhere else, while also allowing me to install and play them on any computer I happen to be on without the need for discs or limiting installs.


it's sure useful if Steam stops me from playing the games I brought :/

Which happens... never? Okay. Unless you're one of the unfortunate few who has completely garbage Internet, there's nothing bad about Steam.

mad825
30th Sep 2010, 23:10
Hey guess what? If it's in the "T&C" then no, it isn't without your permission.
I suppose that voids your argument as well then.


Going online, you mean like SecuROM does every single time you play any game that has it?

SecuROM≠Steam or GFWL
unlike Steam and GFWL, there are many different versions of SecuROM, it's only since V7.0 (standard settings) it has been doing that for one activation.
you see, there is no specific "Rule"/restriction in SecuROM and they are normally set by the publisher. fallout3 has practically no DRM although it does have SecuROM, there is a gaping hole in the protection. In short: they cracked the game for you.


Wow, I'm sorry that I'm a fan of something that allows me to buy games cheaper than anywhere else, while also allowing me to install and play them on any computer I happen to be on without the need for discs or limiting installs.

cheaper!?!?:lmao: not even common steam users would agree with this.
discs and limitation is never a problem, it's only stupid people who have problems as there is always a simple fix, quite surprisingly it's mostly editing Registry keys.


Which happens... never? Okay. Unless you're one of the unfortunate few who has completely garbage Internet, there's nothing bad about Steam.
the policy? the fact that EVERY ******* game needs launched via client and restricting software modification!

Shralla
1st Oct 2010, 00:36
EDIT: You know, I was going to refute your points again, but it's become blatantly obvious that you're just incredibly butthurt about something vaguely related to Steam. Have your games ever stopped working? Has Steam ever prevented you from doing something on your computer? Is there some vile little Steam gnome on your computer that pisses in your Wheaties every time you sit down?

I bet the answer is no. But I shouldn't have to edit ******* registry keys to play my goddamn games, thank you very much. You have not pointed out a single legitimate flaw in the Steam application or concept.

Tverdyj
1st Oct 2010, 01:18
popcorn, anyone?

Dead-Eye
1st Oct 2010, 02:01
I like to bring my computer to the living room and connect it to the TV using that special cable. I dont have internet there ~ how could i play hl2 then?

...offline mode?

Dead-Eye
1st Oct 2010, 02:06
Can we go back to the religious debate?

Senka
1st Oct 2010, 02:22
Actually, as much as I love steam some users on another forum pointed out quite a few flaws, especially with offline mode. It's very buggy, and you have to log into online mode to switch to offline - which is quite a big flaw for some. There were some other points relevant to people with poor internet, can't remember them though. basically, steams cool, not perfect, $1 =/= 1 pound etc. Alot of countries (Australia) get price gouged on items by quite a significant amount. See http://steamunpowered.eu/ for info

Tverdyj
1st Oct 2010, 02:26
Steam is great if you live in the West and have unlimited bandwidth and a decent connection.

if the top speed you can get is under 5 Mbps, having to pay for traffic as you go, with constant hangups (some people still use dial-up, imagine that), Steam becomes a much less-than-perfect solution.

Dead-Eye
1st Oct 2010, 02:37
Steam is great if you live in the West and have unlimited bandwidth and a decent connection.

if the top speed you can get is under 5 Mbps, having to pay for traffic as you go, with constant hangups (some people still use dial-up, imagine that), Steam becomes a much less-than-perfect solution.

Well when the N.W.O takes over and we all live in smart growth chambers, this will no longer be a problem.

Ninjerk
1st Oct 2010, 06:08
Um, with the deals Steam is frequently able to run, how can you not agree that you can get games cheaper on Steam? I got the LucasArts bundle a couple of weeks ago when it went on sale for 49.99 (as opposed to 99.99). This is what came with it:

Battlefront 2
JK2
JK:MoS
Galaxies (though we can easily not count this one)
JK
Jedi Academy
Republic Commando
Starfighter
Republic Heroes
Dark Forces
Empire at War Gold
KoTOR
The Force Unleashed

Is this not a good deal?

Senka
1st Oct 2010, 06:59
The sales are good, the standard price gouges are not.

Tecman
1st Oct 2010, 10:13
The entire thing is a mixture of Awesome, Hiccups and Dumb stuff.

Steam is utterly fantastic when it works and when you have a solid internet connection along with plenty of disk space. When you can buy a game from an awesome cheap sale for literally peanuts (or, if you live in an area where the prices are higher like Europe, Australia or some parts of Asia and have awesome friends from the US and UK and you trust them enough to Paypal them so they grab you the game for cheaper than it would be locally and send it to you as a gift), download a game quickly thanks to an awesome connection, have space to store it on the same drive Steam is on (you can bypass this necessity by NTFS linking tricks, but your average customer doesn't know this...) and have everything work right away while knowing that if you keep it on a separate partition or move the install before you format your system you can very simply rebuild your library of games without re-installing them all ( <3 my dedicated 1.5TB drive for Steam ), then use Steam's features for overlay chat to keep in touch and organize multiplayer matches, invites to multiplayer games, having SteamCloud keep online copies of your savegames so you can continue playing the game on another machine but with the same login from basically anywhere with a solid internet connection, sending cheap and utterly horrible games as gifts to your friends as a troll and then having them out-troll you by sending you something like Bad Rats or Eternity's Child, you'll love it.

Steam is a nightmare when stuff breaks or your connection / their servers fall / Steam suddenly forgets the offline auth, when the prices on new games are outrageous due to currency issues and publisher greed, when your download speeds are on the low side and you have a traffic limit hanging over your head and Steam conveniently forgets you've set a game to not update and grabs an update anyways and then goes 5 gigs over the limit because some developers think that an update = a redownload, then forgets to acknowledge Offline mode when your internet is down (granted, I almost never had this problem... but I had it anyway, so it's there, just not common), or it suddently decides a game isn't actually there for no reason at all and you have to re-download 10 gigs of stuff due to a bug, or when you're caught in a billing issue and your account is on lockdown. Or gets stolen. Or you just lose it thanks to payment screw-ups.

In theory, DD should guarantee lower prices. In practice, DD has to compete with retail simply because publishers don't want to undercut themselves, and if you piss them off too much they simply will not carry with you, while partially it just boils down to simple greed. It's awesome though when you have indies on, who usually set the prices fairly. Sometimes I'll buy an indie game, even if I don't like it, just to support the little guy who tries to be fair to us.

I'm in love with Steam. But I'll never, ever say its perfect, because it has its quirks and annoyances, it's just that the good stuff outweighs the bad by far in my case. And my love for something shouldn't interrupt someone else's right to buy a game in a box without being forced to attach it to a Steam account, especially if they live in an area where the internet connections just basically suck. Or there are none.

I'll also never, ever take people who whine about Steam without some actual reasons seriously. :)

PS: Square-Enix/Eidos like to publish stuff via Steamworks lately (Supreme Commander 2 and Just Cause 2 as two examples), so folks who hate Steam for a valid reason... I'm so sorry for you guys.

Hammich
1st Oct 2010, 14:01
The entire thing is a mixture of Awesome, Hiccups and Dumb stuff.

Steam is utterly fantastic when it works and when you have a solid internet connection along with plenty of disk space. When you can buy a game from an awesome cheap sale for literally peanuts (or, if you live in an area where the prices are higher like Europe, Australia or some parts of Asia and have awesome friends from the US and UK and you trust them enough to Paypal them so they grab you the game for cheaper than it would be locally and send it to you as a gift), download a game quickly thanks to an awesome connection, have space to store it on the same drive Steam is on (you can bypass this necessity by NTFS linking tricks, but your average customer doesn't know this...) and have everything work right away while knowing that if you keep it on a separate partition or move the install before you format your system you can very simply rebuild your library of games without re-installing them all ( <3 my dedicated 1.5TB drive for Steam ), then use Steam's features for overlay chat to keep in touch and organize multiplayer matches, invites to multiplayer games, having SteamCloud keep online copies of your savegames so you can continue playing the game on another machine but with the same login from basically anywhere with a solid internet connection, sending cheap and utterly horrible games as gifts to your friends as a troll and then having them out-troll you by sending you something like Bad Rats or Eternity's Child, you'll love it.

Steam is a nightmare when stuff breaks or your connection / their servers fall / Steam suddenly forgets the offline auth, when the prices on new games are outrageous due to currency issues and publisher greed, when your download speeds are on the low side and you have a traffic limit hanging over your head and Steam conveniently forgets you've set a game to not update and grabs an update anyways and then goes 5 gigs over the limit because some developers think that an update = a redownload, then forgets to acknowledge Offline mode when your internet is down (granted, I almost never had this problem... but I had it anyway, so it's there, just not common), or it suddently decides a game isn't actually there for no reason at all and you have to re-download 10 gigs of stuff due to a bug, or when you're caught in a billing issue and your account is on lockdown. Or gets stolen. Or you just lose it thanks to payment screw-ups.

In theory, DD should guarantee lower prices. In practice, DD has to compete with retail simply because publishers don't want to undercut themselves, and if you piss them off too much they simply will not carry with you, while partially it just boils down to simple greed. It's awesome though when you have indies on, who usually set the prices fairly. Sometimes I'll buy an indie game, even if I don't like it, just to support the little guy who tries to be fair to us.

I'm in love with Steam. But I'll never, ever say its perfect, because it has its quirks and annoyances, it's just that the good stuff outweighs the bad by far in my case. And my love for something shouldn't interrupt someone else's right to buy a game in a box without being forced to attach it to a Steam account, especially if they live in an area where the internet connections just basically suck. Or there are none.

I'll also never, ever take people who whine about Steam without some actual reasons seriously. :)

PS: Square-Enix/Eidos like to publish stuff via Steamworks lately (Supreme Commander 2 and Just Cause 2 as two examples), so folks who hate Steam for a valid reason... I'm so sorry for you guys.
..... ^this

St. Mellow
1st Oct 2010, 18:29
popcorn, anyone?

Extra butter please. I'm gonna back off and just watch the beating of this (very) dead horse.

IOOI
1st Oct 2010, 19:52
PS: Square-Enix/Eidos like to publish stuff via Steamworks lately (Supreme Commander 2 and Just Cause 2 as two examples), so folks who hate Steam for a valid reason... I'm so sorry for you guys.

Great! :mad: I'm about to upgrade my PC and buy Win 7.
If this is true I'll jump off the boat right now, because I don't have a great internet connection.
I have no reason to be hanging here now. :(

Damn it! :mad2:

Dead-Eye
1st Oct 2010, 23:17
Did anyone see what they did to TF2? You 'can' now buy in game items... who would ever do this? I guess it was inevitable that the game would turn into battlefield Heroes.

Pinky_Powers
1st Oct 2010, 23:27
Did anyone see what they did to TF2? You 'can' now buy in game items... who would ever do this? I guess it was inevitable that the game would turn into battlefield Heroes.

I've been playing an awful lot of this over the last week or so. Got back into it in a heavy way. :)

IOOI
2nd Oct 2010, 00:08
Ok. Can anyone here tell me the average size of the activation file for Supreme Commander 2 or Just Cause 2 (> 2.5GB or < 2.5GB (not counting with STEAM)), just so I can have a general idea before I go bananas?

nomotog
2nd Oct 2010, 00:15
Did anyone see what they did to TF2? You 'can' now buy in game items... who would ever do this? I guess it was inevitable that the game would turn into battlefield Heroes.

Well valve did invent DLC, but i didn't expect them to add in game shops.

IOOI
2nd Oct 2010, 00:30
And Moderators please merge this thread ,if needed, instead of closing it. :thumb:

Thanks. :)

OwlSolar
2nd Oct 2010, 00:33
I have no idea what people are talking about here. [/console gamer]

IOOI
2nd Oct 2010, 00:34
I was expecting someone to say something like that. ;)


EDIT: So it's above 2.5GB? Anyone?

Tecman
2nd Oct 2010, 06:41
It's not about the "average size of the activation file", it's about how many updates/patches the game will have at launch and then later on. So it's really, really hard to predict.

Dr_Bob
2nd Oct 2010, 18:30
It will be available on Steam, but there's no word on whether Steam is forced on the boxed version as well.

I'm trying to remember why you hate Steam.

I think it's something like:


Too many patches
Your Internet connection sucks
An engine update for two classic games broke mods with outdated code


If there was anything else, please let me know.


Steam is a nightmare when the prices on new games are outrageous due to publisher greed

That's not Steam's fault.


I'll also never, ever take people who whine about Steam without some actual reasons seriously. :)

Same.

People are entitled to their opinions, but if your going to say that something is good or it sucks, you should explain why you think so.


PS: Square-Enix/Eidos like to publish stuff via Steamworks lately (Supreme Commander 2 and Just Cause 2 as two examples), so folks who hate Steam for a valid reason... I'm so sorry for you guys.

Good news for me.

Kodaemon
2nd Oct 2010, 18:48
Not exactly "too many patches", more the inability to play a freshly installed game without patching it fully up to date, which can take a few weeks with a connection like mine.

Also, inability to download the patches outside of Steam. One, Steam is obviously not optimised for slow connections and frequently times out/breaks downloads. Two, I can't download the patches at a cafe or something (well, I can if take my Steam files with me and log into Steam there, which is a huge security risk).

Dr_Bob
2nd Oct 2010, 18:52
Not exactly "too many patches", more the inability to play a freshly installed game without patching it fully up to date, which can take a few weeks with a connection like mine.

Surely that first point can't apply to every game activated or bought on Steam?

It can't.


Also, inability to download the patches outside of Steam. One, Steam is obviously not optimised for slow connections and frequently times out/breaks downloads. Two, I can't download the patches at a cafe or something (well, I can if take my Steam files with me and log into Steam there, which is a huge security risk).

The whole point of having your games updated automatically via Steam is to make it more convenient for the user, who won't have to go to gaming websites to download various patches and install them individually. To make patches available outside of Steam would defeat one of the purposes of Steam.

Kodaemon
2nd Oct 2010, 19:03
Not sure what you're trying to say with the first two sentences.

And sure, automated downloading of patches is convenient, provided you have an internet connection that can handle it. I don't, and that's one of the reasons I get my games as physical copies. Also, you should be able to choose NOT installing a patch, seeing how common it is to see patches breaking stuff (like the aforementioned Source engine update, which was a rushed, untested piece of crap pushed out the door prematurely)

And how exactly would making the patches available elsewhere "defeat one of the purposes of Steam."?

Dr_Bob
2nd Oct 2010, 19:19
And sure, automated downloading of patches is convenient, provided you have an internet connection that can handle it. I don't, and that's one of the reasons I get my games as physical copies. Also, you should be able to choose NOT installing a patch, seeing how common it is to see patches breaking stuff (like the aforementioned Source engine update, which was a rushed, untested piece of crap pushed out the door prematurely)

You can disable updates.

And yeah, the update was 100% rushed untested - it's not like it took 3 years (since release of 'The Orange Box' on consoles, which had Half-Life 2 and Episode One updated to the latest version of the engine) for it to come out.

:rolleyes:


And how exactly would making the patches available elsewhere "defeat one of the purposes of Steam."?

Steam is supposed to make patching games convenient and hassle-free - which it does.

To make Steam game patches downloadable on external websites defeats the purpose of having every client run the same version of a product, to ensure that everyone has the latest bugfixes and is compatible with each other.

Everyone gets the update from Steam - everyone runs the latest version.

Why would you need to have external patches?

Kodaemon
2nd Oct 2010, 19:28
You can disable updates.

..once you already updated. And until Steam hiccups and resets your settings.


And yeah, the update was 100% rushed untested - it's not like it took 3 years (since release of 'The Orange Box' on consoles, which had Half-Life 2 and Episode One updated to the latest version of the engine) for it to come out.

:rolleyes:

Of course, it coming out just a couple of weeks after a mod that basically did the same things is sheer coincidence.


Steam is supposed to make patching games convenient and hassle-free - which it does.

Well, not for me.


Why would you need to have external patches?

I thought I already explained that. Wait, I did! OK, I'm through talking to you, trollface.

Tecman
2nd Oct 2010, 19:32
And yeah, the update was 100% rushed untested - it's not like it took 3 years (since release of 'The Orange Box' on consoles, which had Half-Life 2 and Episode One updated to the latest version of the engine) for it to come out.

:rolleyes:

Uh, did you actually try to run HL2 and EP1 just after the Orange Box engine update was pushed out? Yes, it was an untested patch, or at least it seemed that way to a lot of people. Including me. Sorry.

Because holy christ did it have issues (I mean come on, some maps didn't have HDR cooked properly which resulted in hilarity, some of the monitors/projected viewports were way too bright, NPCs having white eyes, Alxy breaking the scripting causing CTDs, not to mention the HUD being scrambled to hell and back). Granted, they were ironed out relatively quickly, and mod authors pushed out updates after a while, but it was seriously impossible for some mods to run at all. Hell, some still don't.

Dr_Bob
2nd Oct 2010, 19:33
Uh, did you actually try to run HL2 and EP1 just after the Orange Box engine update was pushed out? Yes, it was an untested patch, or at least it seemed that way to a lot of people. Including me. Sorry.

Because holy christ did it have issues (I mean come on, some maps didn't have HDR cooked properly which resulted in hilarity, some of the monitors/projected viewports were way too bright, NPCs having white eyes, Alxy breaking the scripting causing CTDs, not to mention the HUD being scrambled to hell and back). Granted, they were ironed out relatively quickly, and mod authors pushed out updates after a while, but it was seriously impossible for some mods to run at all. Hell, some still don't.

I did play it, and it was fine.


..once you already updated. And until Steam hiccups and resets your settings.

Go on the forums and let them know that this is an issue.

Complaining here won't get that fixed.


Of course, it coming out just a couple of weeks after a mod that basically did the same things is sheer coincidence.

Yes.


Well, not for me.

Too bad.


I thought I already explained that. Wait, I did! OK, I'm through talking to you, trollface.

In other words: "I can't argue my really bad points any more, so goodbye!

PS: You're a troll!!"

Kodaemon
2nd Oct 2010, 19:34
This message is hidden because Dr Bob is on your ignore list.

What was that? I can't hear you.

Dr_Bob
2nd Oct 2010, 19:35
What was that? I can't hear you.

Hahahaha, this is priceless.

IOOI
3rd Oct 2010, 00:59
It's not about the "average size of the activation file", it's about how many updates/patches the game will have at launch and then later on. So it's really, really hard to predict.

If it turns out to be only that, there should be no problem.


The whole point of having your games updated automatically via Steam is to make it more convenient for the user, who won't have to go to gaming websites to download various patches and install them individually. To make patches available outside of Steam would defeat one of the purposes of Steam.

That's its weakness, really.

Though we shouldn't need to go to an external website, we should be able to download patches from Steam's website or from a lighter version of Steam (just for patches).
There could be an option that allows the user to download it from another PC to an external drive and later install it on his PC. Then Steam would need to verify the files integrity.

Valve's policy still seems to be that the client is always right and that they should provide a better service in order to fulfil clients needs so theres should be a resolution for this.
It doesn't hurt asking.

Dead-Eye
3rd Oct 2010, 02:41
Can't we all just get laid?

OwlSolar
3rd Oct 2010, 02:47
Considering that we're all on a message board about an unreleased video game, probably not.

:p

Rockn-Roll
3rd Oct 2010, 18:29
Actually, as much as I love steam some users on another forum pointed out quite a few flaws, especially with offline mode. It's very buggy, and you have to log into online mode to switch to offline - which is quite a big flaw for some. There were some other points relevant to people with poor internet, can't remember them though. basically, steams cool, not perfect, $1 =/= 1 pound etc. Alot of countries (Australia) get price gouged on items by quite a significant amount. See http://steamunpowered.eu/ for info

1) If you have already setup Steam on your computer i.e. were connected at some point in the distant past, and have the game already installed and have played it on that computer; then, you simply need to select Steam | Go Offline from the main menu. This does not, however, prevent that game from stopping you from playing. BioShock 2, for example, requires GFWL and unless you figure out the hidden trick of creating an offline account then it will prevent you from playing, but not Steam. Blame the game developers or GFWL if you must, but Steam is not at fault.

2) Steam does not set the price for the games that Valve does not make themselves. Prices in other countries and even the availability of certain games is set by the governments in those countries...not Steam. If the prices are not acceptable then complain to those governments. This has been discussed to death in the Steam forums and Valve has issued a public statement indicating that it is not in their control to charge less (or more) than what the governments dictate.

Yeah, this same discussion occurred in the Thief forums earlier this year. By far the majority of gamers prefer Steam to any other DRM or Account Activation service. It's been growing in popularity since it came into being 11 years ago when services such as Heat, WON, Ten, and mPlayer failed to stay solvent. Also, keep in mind that Valve is first a group of gamers...they are definitely not in the business to just make money...they started out just to have fun. Take Team Fortress 2 for example...I'll bet every other development studio in the world would have charged $10 or whatever for each DLC, but not Steam...they do it for free because they enjoy the fact that gamers like their content much more than they want more money. I support Steam and Valve in any way I can.

TrickyVein
3rd Oct 2010, 19:04
Considering that we're all on a message board about an unreleased video game, probably not.

:p

*sob*

Mandella
7th Oct 2010, 00:11
Let me give one try here to educate Dr Bob and others on the issue some have with Steam and patches.

Some of us are on limited bandwidth. If patches were available outside of Steam, or heck even available inside of Steam as separate patches that could be stored as files, then we could take a netbook or the like to town and find an internet cafe or library that offers access, download the patch, and then bring it back home to load on the multiple machines we often have there.

Is that simple enough?

True, we should (and do) take this up with Valve itself, but as this is a thread about DRM and Steam, it seems appropriate to raise the issue here too, as a warning to those thinking about the service.

And yes, I am aware of a workaround involving downloading the entire game on another machine and then making a backup which can be transferred to another machine. Very, very time consuming, considering the size of an entire game versus a patch file.

Dr_Bob
8th Oct 2010, 14:54
Let me give one try here to educate Dr Bob and others on the issue some have with Steam and patches.

Some of us are on limited bandwidth. If patches were available outside of Steam, or heck even available inside of Steam as separate patches that could be stored as files, then we could take a netbook or the like to town and find an internet cafe or library that offers access, download the patch, and then bring it back home to load on the multiple machines we often have there.

Is that simple enough?

True, we should (and do) take this up with Valve itself, but as this is a thread about DRM and Steam, it seems appropriate to raise the issue here too, as a warning to those thinking about the service.

And yes, I am aware of a workaround involving downloading the entire game on another machine and then making a backup which can be transferred to another machine. Very, very time consuming, considering the size of an entire game versus a patch file.

At least someone tried (and succeeded) to explain why they want this to happen instead of calling me a "trollface".

Thank you.

Perhaps you could try to raise this issue in the Steam forums?

Gordon_Shea
8th Oct 2010, 16:43
If you have that pathetic an internet connection you really have no business with PC Gaming.

Irate_Iguana
8th Oct 2010, 16:56
If you have that pathetic an internet connection you really have no business with PC Gaming.

Because PC gaming is all about the internet and not about games on your PC.

Gordon_Shea
8th Oct 2010, 20:23
Because PC gaming is all about the internet and not about games on your PC.
Your internet connection is basically part of your PC because of the drastic effect it has on your computer's utility. if you're not willing to invest the comparably low amount of money it costs per month to have a good connection, then you probably don't do enough with your computer to justify having a good enough box to game on.

Or else you live in a country with awful broadband penetration, but in that case a console version is still probably a better choice.

TrickyVein
8th Oct 2010, 20:42
Sometimes you come across a comment that can only be described as unrelentingly pretentious.

Said comment about not "willing" to invest in a "comparatively low-cost" intent connection is one of these. Start paying your own bills and making your own money, and then see if your views change. Let's all try to be a little more understanding, shall we?

Pinky_Powers
8th Oct 2010, 21:47
If you have that pathetic an internet connection you really have no business with PC Gaming.

That's easy to say when you live in an area that has good internet.

Imagine for a moment that suddenly, all ISPs in your area became weak, corrupt whores, and your monthly bandwith and upload/download was severely limited. And you didn't have the means to "just move to someplace better".

Would you quit being a gamer because your internet was now a hindrance to this glorious hobby of yours?

Quality broadband was not always a prerequisite of PC gaming. That has changed now. But the people shouldn't be told by you or anybody that they have no right to be gamers if their ISPs suck.

PS. I have unlimited downloads and uploads and superb speeds. Road Runner is my hero. :)

PPS. I'm a great lover of Steam. But they do have some issues to work out.

Gordon_Shea
8th Oct 2010, 21:48
Sometimes you come across a comment that can only be described as unrelentingly pretentious.

Said comment about not "willing" to invest in a "comparatively low-cost" intent connection is one of these. Start paying your own bills and making your own money, and then see if your views change. Let's all try to be a little more understanding, shall we?

Right, because I think that paying ten bucks more a month for a connection that isn't utterly terrible, I must be some pimply teenager that still lives at home.

I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to pay for a decent connection, or can't get a decent line where you are, a console is just a better option period. Especially since most of the real advantages of PC Gaming, like mods or decent multiplayer communities, are largely internet-based.

Fluffis
8th Oct 2010, 22:12
Right, because I think that paying ten bucks more a month for a connection that isn't utterly terrible, I must be some pimply teenager that still lives at home.

I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to pay for a decent connection, or can't get a decent line where you are, a console is just a better option period. Especially since most of the real advantages of PC Gaming, like mods or decent multiplayer communities, are largely internet-based.

You're a very weird person...

Of course a bad internet connection shouldn't stop people from playing PC games. In fact, games shouldn't rely on internet connections in the first place. It should be a case of:
"You have a good connection? Good. Then you can access these bonus things (mods, on-the-fly patches etc.)"
"You don't have a good connection? No problem. You can still play the game as-is. Download patches manually, if needed, from this site xxx.xxx".

Demanding an internet connection to play a game can be a good thing - however, it doesn't mean that it is a good thing. And it doesn't mean that it is a good thing for everyone.

Unfortunately, some developers are stuck in their own little world, where everyone has a 100+mb connection and unlimited down-/upload. The reality is significantly different. It can be a question of money, or simply availability. There are far fewer people than you think who are actually able to get a "decent" connection.

And you're saying that these people shouldn't be allowed to play PC games?

Really, really think about it for a while, before answering and making yourself look like an even bigger... Oh yeah... the ToU.

Kodaemon
11th Nov 2010, 19:57
Relevant articles:

Valve monopoly is killing PC market (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/41747/Valve-monopoly-is-killing-PC-market)

Retail threatens Steam ban (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/41746/Retail-threatens-Steam-ban)

Pinky_Powers
11th Nov 2010, 20:03
Relevant articles:

Valve monopoly is killing PC market (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/41747/Valve-monopoly-is-killing-PC-market)

Retail threatens Steam ban (http://www.mcvuk.com/news/41746/Retail-threatens-Steam-ban)

Retailers banning Steam games will damage the PC market. Steam selling craploads of PC games will not. :rolleyes:

K^2
11th Nov 2010, 20:07
Well, the problem here is a monopoly. So realistically, what we are looking at is an increase in PC game prices. Seeing how they are currently significantly cheaper than console games, it doesn't worry me too much. The volumes will still be good, so developers still have an incentive to develop.

Though, at some point, anti-trust laws might kick in, which would be a royal mess. That would be bad for everyone, so I'm hoping Valve will find a way to avoid that. It wouldn't be good for them, either.

Rindill the Red
11th Nov 2010, 20:07
Retailers banning Steam games will damage the PC market. Steam selling craploads of PC games will not. :rolleyes:

I dare say I must agree, my good sir. All that is happening is that retail PC game sales are dying off while digital distribution is rising.

Retail game stores shouldn't be all that concerned, they make most of their money off of console junkies anyway... especially used games, their profit margin on that is huge.

Eventually consoles may go the way of digital distribution as well (I suspect the next generation will feature online distribution heavily), but it will be awhile before people completely forgo physical disks.

Besides that, Steam is just a really really good platform... and hey, it's Valve, who doesn't love Valve?

Rindill the Red
11th Nov 2010, 20:12
Well, the problem here is a monopoly. So realistically, what we are looking at is an increase in PC game prices. Seeing how they are currently significantly cheaper than console games, it doesn't worry me too much. The volumes will still be good, so developers still have an incentive to develop.

Though, at some point, anti-trust laws might kick in, which would be a royal mess. That would be bad for everyone, so I'm hoping Valve will find a way to avoid that. It wouldn't be good for them, either.

I'm pretty sure Valve has that covered, I don't think anti-trust laws could even be applicable in this case.

Kodaemon
11th Nov 2010, 20:15
All that is happening is that retail PC game sales are dying off

And Steam is actively helping them die. What's the point of getting a retail version if it forces you to use Steam anyway?

K^2
11th Nov 2010, 20:20
And Steam is actively helping them die. What's the point of getting a retail version if it forces you to use Steam anyway?
Digital Distribution is a good thing. I know you don't like Steam specifically, but having more and more people buy their games online is a good thing.

Rindill the Red
11th Nov 2010, 20:22
And Steam is actively helping them die. What's the point of getting a retail version if it forces you to use Steam anyway?

That just shows the brilliance of Valve's marketing department. Capitalism is a dog-eat-dog world.

Kodaemon
11th Nov 2010, 20:25
Thought experiment time! Let's reverse the situation: say you buy a digital copy of the game. But, in order to make it work, you have to go to a particular retailer's store and get it activated. Awkward, huh?

Pinky_Powers
11th Nov 2010, 20:26
Well, the problem here is a monopoly. So realistically, what we are looking at is an increase in PC game prices.

This is terrifyingly true. Luckily, as it stands now, the publishers are in charge of how much their games sell for on Steam. As long as this protocol remains, we're safe.

Valve has earned the benefit of the doubt in my book. Their business practices have thus far been good and righteous. I'm not too worried.

But power does corrupt...

:hmm:

K^2
11th Nov 2010, 20:28
Thought experiment time! Let's reverse the situation: say you buy a digital copy of the game. But, in order to make it work, you have to go to a particular retailer's store and get it activated. Awkward, huh?
Matter of convenience. I don't mind activation, so long as it happens automatically, and requires no more than me entering my Steam ID, password, and maybe a key from the box.

If I have to get off my ass, drive to a store, and have it activated there, it's a bother.

Kodaemon
11th Nov 2010, 20:32
Except, get this: it's just as much of a bother and inconvenience for me and a significant number of people to use Steam.

K^2
11th Nov 2010, 20:34
Except, get this: it's just as much of a bother and inconvenience for me and a significant number of people to use Steam.
That is very unfortunate, and I hope they find a better solution for you, but trying to save physical copy distribution is not it.

If your problem is the matter of connection, you really should be complaining to your local governments about the poor state of the infrastructure. a) You have better shot at that than stopping digital distribution from proliferating, and b) you'd be getting descent internet as a bonus.

Tecman
11th Nov 2010, 21:13
This was a pretty good read: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/11/11/store-wars-rivals-threaten-to-boycott-steam/

K^2
11th Nov 2010, 21:22
Hey, that's pretty much what I said. And it's on the internet, so that must be right.

Pinky_Powers
11th Nov 2010, 21:25
Hey, that's pretty much what I said. And it's on the internet, so that must be right.

No, it must be right only because I agree with you. ;)

K^2
11th Nov 2010, 21:28
... I'll take that.

Pinky_Powers
11th Nov 2010, 21:38
http://mrwiz.files.wordpress.com/2006/07/pinky_brain.jpg

Irate_Iguana
11th Nov 2010, 21:52
What's the point of getting a retail version if it forces you to use Steam anyway?

Let's take the recently released CoD:BO as an example. On Steam it will cost me €59.99 and all I get is a digital copy. In the store I can find it for €40. I'll take the retail version, thank you very much. For me it is only cheaper when they have those weekend deals. Even then I get ripped-off.

Rindill the Red
12th Nov 2010, 00:08
Let's take the recently released CoD:BO as an example. On Steam it will cost me €59.99 and all I get is a digital copy. In the store I can find it for €40. I'll take the retail version, thank you very much. For me it is only cheaper when they have those weekend deals. Even then I get ripped-off.

In America, steam have good sales on games.

Buy Stalker:SoC and CS for 2.99 $.
Buy Batman: Arkham Asylum for 13.99 $.
Buy Gothic III and II for 1.99$.
Buy entire Rockstar collection: 42.49 $.
Buy Chronicles of Riddick: 6.79 $.
Buy Psychonauts: 9.99 $.
Buy Deus Ex: 6.69 $.
Buy Dark Messiah: 4.99 $.

Dr_Bob
12th Nov 2010, 23:04
Sorry, what are these retailers trying to do to garner more sales for PC games?

Nothing?

Oh.

Ashpolt
12th Nov 2010, 23:10
Sorry, what are these retailers trying to do to garner more sales for PC games?

Nothing?

Oh.

Yeah I was thinking that too. My local game stores barely sell PC games anymore, it's just the current top 10 (if you're lucky) which will be almost entirely The Sims and WoW, and then a bunch of 2 for £15 shovelware. If they actually made half an effort to stock a decent range of titles, I'd much rather have a physical copy than not, so they'd win every time (barring huge price disparities.)

Kodaemon
12th Nov 2010, 23:14
Here in Poland, retailers still sell more PC games than console games, though it's slowly starting to shift.

Dr_Bob
12th Nov 2010, 23:29
Yeah I was thinking that too. My local game stores barely sell PC games anymore, it's just the current top 10 (if you're lucky) which will be almost entirely The Sims and WoW, and then a bunch of 2 for £15 shovelware. If they actually made half an effort to stock a decent range of titles, I'd much rather have a physical copy than not, so they'd win every time (barring huge price disparities.)

Years ago, there were multiple shelves for a great line-up of PC games in my local game stores.

Now there is only a tiny shelf, and the bargain section with great titles such as Sail Simulator (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sail-Simulator-4-Revival-PC-CD/dp/B000JQGICE) (I wish I was joking).

K^2
12th Nov 2010, 23:38
Here in Poland, retailers still sell more PC games than console games, though it's slowly starting to shift.
How many of these under a license, though?

Kodaemon
13th Nov 2010, 04:58
Hmm? What do you mean?

K^2
13th Nov 2010, 05:48
PC games sold under publisher's license vs total sales.

Kodaemon
13th Nov 2010, 09:16
Eh, call me stupid but I still don't get it :/. Publisher's license as opposed to what?

Brockxz
13th Nov 2010, 09:35
Eh, call me stupid but I still don't get it :/. Publisher's license as opposed to what?

I think he meant that not in all regions publisher are the same. For example most recent game Call Of Duty Black Ops has a different publisher in Russia - it's "1С-СофтКлаб". They are the distributors of that game in Eastern Europe (post-USSR) countries and in Russia. http://games.1c.ru/cod_black_ops/ They localize the product for that region and publish there. Also those games are a lot cheaper opposed to western ones.

K^2
13th Nov 2010, 09:42
Nah. When you have a legit company doing regional publishing, that's still under license. I'm talking about the copies that are not published under any kind of a license at all. Simply printed and distributed by local entrepreneurs, for the lack of a better word. Essentially, piracy, but on a more serious level. No cheap burned copies with bad cracks. Real prints that pass CD check, but made under no authority.

Brockxz
13th Nov 2010, 09:55
Nah. When you have a legit company doing regional publishing, that's still under license. I'm talking about the copies that are not published under any kind of a license at all. Simply printed and distributed by local entrepreneurs, for the lack of a better word. Essentially, piracy, but on a more serious level. No cheap burned copies with bad cracks. Real prints that pass CD check, but made under no authority.

I see what you meant by that but i doubt someone outside our region (post-USSR countries, Asia etc) actually will understand that. Yes, they still exist here but I think they don't sell as much as they did 10+ years ago when people didn't had a chance to download pirated games and there wasn't licensed localized games half the retail western price etc.
Mostly those games are the same pirated games just printed on disks and those games pass the activation because crack is already integrated in the install so you don't need to copy anything.

Kodaemon
13th Nov 2010, 11:11
Nah. When you have a legit company doing regional publishing, that's still under license. I'm talking about the copies that are not published under any kind of a license at all. Simply printed and distributed by local entrepreneurs, for the lack of a better word. Essentially, piracy, but on a more serious level. No cheap burned copies with bad cracks. Real prints that pass CD check, but made under no authority.

I was kind of suspecting you mean this :/. Sorry to disappoint you, but the phenomenon you describe doesn't exist here. There was a brief period in the early 90s when it did, but it's rooted out now. We have a rather healthy market, you'd have to go further east to see this mass bootlegging.

K^2
13th Nov 2010, 22:53
Odd. I've heard at least one person from Poland describing it as a fairly "healthy" business still no more than a year ago. Could it depend on the region?

Though, I suppose that either way, it'd be a minor portion of the market from what you describe. So it doesn't really matter.