PDA

View Full Version : I'm a bit worried now...



Davidtigerfang
28th Sep 2010, 18:45
Hello, I just posted this on Gamespot and I figured I'd post this on here as well;

You know, I've been following this game since it's announcement and as a fan of the Deus Ex franchise I have to say I'm a little worried now. All of the footage that I've seen about this game has been in-game cutscenes. Not once have I actually seen ANY real honest-to-God in-game playing with a hud or anything like that. This worries me because Deus Ex has never used CGI cutscenes to tell it's story and having seen so many now I'm starting to believe it might be cutscene heavy. Also I'm astounded there is already so much praise for a game that, as I stated earlier, shown zero real gameplay. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction....?

luminar
28th Sep 2010, 18:50
Hello, I just posted this on Gamespot and I figured I'd post this on here as well;

You know, I've been following this game since it's announcement and as a fan of the Deus Ex franchise I have to say I'm a little worried now. All of the footage that I've seen about this game has been in-game cutscenes. Not once have I actually seen ANY real honest-to-God in-game playing with a hud or anything like that. This worries me because Deus Ex has never used CGI cutscenes to tell it's story and having seen so many now I'm starting to believe it might be cutscene heavy. Also I'm astounded there is already so much praise for a game that, as I stated earlier, shown zero real gameplay. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction....?

There is a youtube video, or at least was I'm not sure if it's up still, of leaked gameplay footage. As well as an official public dislplay of gameplay on youtube.

hem dazon 90
28th Sep 2010, 18:55
RUN! it's wolfeedarkfang!

Dead-Eye
28th Sep 2010, 19:01
We are all worried my friend.

Facebyface
28th Sep 2010, 19:01
The cut scenes that were in that gameplay video (again, if you can find it) are rather cleverly implicated though I hope they can maintain that in a non-linear story.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Sep 2010, 19:25
We are all worried my friend.
Nonsense! I'm not. :p

Xenoc
28th Sep 2010, 19:26
Agree with OP I am bricking it! Don't **** this up EM!!!

Joseph Manderley's Corpse
28th Sep 2010, 19:36
As we all know, IW was a let down.

I'm not getting my hopes up for this one yet, though I am looking forward to it.

NKD
28th Sep 2010, 19:46
No sense in worrying about something you can't do anything about.

AlexOfSpades
28th Sep 2010, 19:50
The only sure i have in my life, is that someday i'll die.

But i dont worry about it, because i cannot stop it. So instead of trying to change the unchangeable, enjoy it.

Blade_hunter
28th Sep 2010, 20:04
We are all worried my friend.

I am worried a lot too :(

Pinky_Powers
28th Sep 2010, 20:44
His worries are based on a misconception. Because there's no HUD in any of the footage he's seen, he thinks it's all cutscenes.

The HUD is not designed yet. Or rather, they have not locked down a design yet. And so the HUD has been turned off in ALL the footage we have.

Watch these, and behold your foolishness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdEvgns8B4

-~::Edit::~-
After paying a little more attention to what he's said, I think the issue goes even deeper than that.

The CGI trailers are not composed of Cutscenes from the game. THERE IS NO CGI CUTSCENES IN DEUS EX HUMAN REVOLUTION.
The trailers are just that. Trailers. They are made up of 100% new content only for the trailers.

AlexOfSpades
28th Sep 2010, 21:37
His worries are based on a misconception. Because there's no HUD in any of the footage he's seen, he thinks it's all cutscenes.

The HUD is not designed yet. Or rather, they have not locked down a design yet. And so the HUD has been turned off in ALL the footage we have.

Watch these, and behold your foolishness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdEvgns8B4

-~::Edit::~-
After paying a little more attention to what he's said, I think the issue goes even deeper than that.

The CGI trailers are not composed of Cutscenes from the game. [B]THERE IS NO CGI CUTSCENES IN DEUS EX HUMAN REVOLUTION.
The trailers are just that. Trailers. They are made up of 100% new content only for the trailers.



Precisely, agent Pinkerton.

FrankCSIS
28th Sep 2010, 21:52
We are all worried my friend

Winter is comming.

And our garrison is filled with nothing but green summer boys.

Will we pull it off?!

Pinky_Powers
28th Sep 2010, 22:29
Winter is comming.

And our garrison is filled with nothing but green summer boys.

Will we pull it off?!

Not if the Wildlings continue to mass their forces. And the Dragon has risen in the east.

hem dazon 90
28th Sep 2010, 22:51
Winter is comming.

And our garrison is filled with nothing but green summer boys.

Will we pull it off?!

We will try sir!

http://www.spideysenses.com/wp-content/wolverines.jpg

WOLVERINES!

Tverdyj
28th Sep 2010, 23:19
Not if the Wildlings continue to mass their forces. And the Dragon has risen in the east.

But the King has brought us reinforcements. although his right is questionable, he is the only one of the Five who came to our aid.....

Blade_hunter
28th Sep 2010, 23:52
Actually there is ZERO pre-rendered cutscenes in the game read the FAQ thread to know, but the game has a lot of cutscenes, much more than the previous titles. and about cutscenes there is where my worry is about them

BigBoss
3rd Oct 2010, 08:57
I never understood this. If I like movies, and I like videogames, then WHO CARES if the two are in the same package? If anything I like it more, mgs4 ftw

Blade_hunter
3rd Oct 2010, 11:20
Deus Ex isn't MGS 4 and actually when I play a game I don't want to be interrupted every 5 minutes just because I activated a script that activated a cutscene.
Liking movies and games doesn't mean we like them in the same package, I play a game because I want to play, not sitting down and watch a movie. Same goes for the movie I don't want to press play or do a combination of keys everytime during the time I watch it.

xsamitt
3rd Oct 2010, 12:38
Deus Ex isn't MGS 4 and actually when I play a game I don't want to be interrupted every 5 minutes just because I activated a script that activated a cutscene.
Liking movies and games doesn't mean we like them in the same package, I play a game because I want to play, not sitting down and watch a movie. Same goes for the movie I don't want to press play or do a combination of keys everytime during the time I watch it.


100% agreed.......:thumb:

jjc
3rd Oct 2010, 15:13
I'm not worried, because it's a ******* video game and I have quite a few more important things going on in my life.

Xenoc
3rd Oct 2010, 15:44
After viewing the newest videos posted I am confident the game will kick ass!

TrickyVein
3rd Oct 2010, 15:57
The newest vids aren't "new" at all - I'm confused. Did you see something else the rest of us didn't? :confused:

Rockn-Roll
3rd Oct 2010, 17:09
But the King has brought us reinforcements. although his right is questionable, he is the only one of the Five who came to our aid.....

You mean the only one still alive to come to our aid! But, I'm not worried...the recent trailer and in-game screenshots have settled my mind...Human Revolution is going to be big and bold and adventurous. I think it will be the first game in a decade that takes me more than 4 hours to finish and doesn't feel like I was ripped off with half a game. Perhaps it being the first game in a very long time that focused only on single player is the reason...I wish more game developers would focus on single player. We have enough multiplayer options already. It's time for a brilliant and huge single player game to stimulate our entertainment desires.

xAcerbusx
4th Oct 2010, 00:52
I was marginally trepidatious after I saw the cutscene-heavy early trailers...

...but post-Tokyo Game Show? With the trailer featuring 'super leet' bullet-time slow-mo backflips and retractable forearm sword combat and other assorted pandering to the Japanese audience? I'm absolutely terrified.

The gameplay looks solid... although the lack of light-and-shadow stealth is a huge knock against it, in my view. Using strictly cover-based stealth is going to make this game feel like Metal Gear Solid (not that Adam's chain-smoking and 'I-just-gargled-with-concrete' toughguy voice doesn't already give me flashbacks to MGS)... which is a very bad thing.

It should feel more like Thief than anything when you play it as a purely stealth-oriented character. It's a much more solid, much more logical approach to sneaking. You aren't playing 'the radar'... you're playing as the character, listening to footsteps, creating diversions. It's much more tense, and judging by its placement on most all-time greatest games lists: It's held up quite well, too.

I defended the contextual third-person stealth kills in the beginning, but the more I see of them, the more they seem like a bad idea. And the giant robots and other assorted mecha? Are we sure this game was made in Montréal, and not Osaka?

So, yeah... I'm with all the folks in this thread. Worried. Terrified. Might actually not purchase this on day one. Going to wait for some trusted (read: not Gametrailers) opinions first.

NKD
4th Oct 2010, 01:12
I was marginally trepidatious after I saw the cutscene-heavy early trailers...

There are no pre-rendered cutscenes in DXHR. All of that was made specifically for the trailers.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 01:17
(not that Adam's chain-smoking and 'I-just-gargled-with-concrete' toughguy voice doesn't already give me flashbacks to MGS)... which is a very bad thing.

So let me get this straight, you've played Thief, you've played Metal Gear Solid, but you've never played Deus Ex? That is what they're throwing back to... the original Deus Ex.

Also, shadow-based stealth is only useful in certain situations. Cover-based stealth is useful all the time. Don't knock it. In an ideal world, they would have added the cover mechanic without removing the shadow-stealth altogether.

Aqueous
4th Oct 2010, 01:48
Sorry but there is way too much whine in this thread. If you want to play Deus Ex, go and load it up right now, but personally while I accept the original was great I ultimately want a new and different game not a carbon copy with better graphics. Do I want it to be as good? Of course! But that doesn't equate to nitpicking every single potential element that is different from the first.

This is a case of wait and see.

As for cutscenes in games I actually think they were one of the greatest things to come into gaming, as long as they're used effectively. Someone mentioned MGS4? Well, that was an example of how not to use them: an absolute bombardment, a veritable orgy of non-interactive content in an interactive medium. Cutscenes are hugely effective for one thing in particular: immersion. When they're done right they're not only great in their own right but they enhance the gameplay aswell by giving it plot-based context. However, when you overdo them, you achieve the complete opposite - you cause the player to lose interest and detach themselves from the game and its plot/characters.

Cutscenes aren't a bad thing, games that simply overuse them are.

hem dazon 90
4th Oct 2010, 01:52
Sorry but there is way too much whine in this thread. If you want to play Deus Ex, go and load it up right now, but personally while I accept the original was great I ultimately want a new and different game not a carbon copy with better graphics. Do I want it to be as good? Of course! But that doesn't equate to nitpicking every single potential element that is different from the first.

This is a case of wait and see.

As for cutscenes in games I actually think they were one of the greatest things to come into gaming, as long as they're used effectively. Someone mentioned MGS4? Well, that was an example of how not to use them: an absolute bombardment, a veritable orgy of non-interactive content in an interactive medium. Cutscenes are hugely effective for one thing in particular: immersion. When they're done right they're not only great in their own right but they enhance the gameplay aswell by giving it plot-based context. However, when you overdo them, you achieve the complete opposite - you cause the player to lose interest and detach themselves from the game and its plot/characters.

Cutscenes aren't a bad thing, games that simply overuse them are.










AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddd heres another one

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 02:16
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAnnnnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddd heres another one

Indeed. Every few weeks some newbie comes on the forum and spouts the same ignorant gibberish.

Well, he did have some solid words in the second half of his post. He understands the cutscene debate well enough.

So I'll give him a thumbs-up for that.
:thumb:

avenging_teabag
4th Oct 2010, 06:02
Sorry but there is way too much whine in this thread. If you want to play Deus Ex, go and load it up right now, but personally while I accept the original was great I ultimately want a new and different game not a carbon copy with better graphics. Do I want it to be as good? Of course! But that doesn't equate to nitpicking every single potential element that is different from the first.

This is a case of wait and see.

As for cutscenes in games I actually think they were one of the greatest things to come into gaming, as long as they're used effectively. Someone mentioned MGS4? Well, that was an example of how not to use them: an absolute bombardment, a veritable orgy of non-interactive content in an interactive medium. Cutscenes are hugely effective for one thing in particular: immersion. When they're done right they're not only great in their own right but they enhance the gameplay aswell by giving it plot-based context. However, when you overdo them, you achieve the complete opposite - you cause the player to lose interest and detach themselves from the game and its plot/characters.

Cutscenes aren't a bad thing, games that simply overuse them are.
Right on the money. Welcome :wave:

xAcerbusx
4th Oct 2010, 06:09
So let me get this straight, you've played Thief, you've played Metal Gear Solid, but you've never played Deus Ex? That is what they're throwing back to... the original Deus Ex.

Unless the player popped a cigarette in J.C.'s mouth... he wasn't a chain smoker. And while he did have a lower, gravelly voice... he didn't sound like Christian Bale's cookie monster Batman voice like the guy doing Adam's VA work.


Also, shadow-based stealth is only useful in certain situations. Cover-based stealth is useful all the time. Don't knock it. In an ideal world, they would have added the cover mechanic without removing the shadow-stealth altogether.

The original Deus Ex had both. Even Invisible War had both.

This was clearly a conscious design decision. And it was a poor one.

The problem with purely cover-based stealth is apparent immediately after playing Metal Gear Solid: You end up with your eye on the radar more than your character. Ultimately, your character and the stage they're navigating through may as well not even be rendered in 3D, because all the information you need is right there at the bottom right in your radar. May as well tape a paper over 80% of your screen and just watch your radar. It's also not immersive in the least.

pringlepower
4th Oct 2010, 06:14
Unless the player popped a cigarette in J.C.'s mouth... he wasn't a chain smoker. And while he did have a lower, gravelly voice... he didn't sound like Christian Bale's cookie monster Batman voice like the guy doing Adam's VA work.

.

Well JC's voice acting can be more or less described as "just the facts". Evidently MJ12 screwed up all parts of his brain involved with emotion or tone or expression or anything like that when they stuck nanomachines in there.

And Adam just happens to be a smoker, so you know....

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 06:16
As far as I'm aware, Human Revolution does not have a radar. It is not MGS. What the hell are you talking about?


Unless the player popped a cigarette in J.C.'s mouth... he wasn't a chain smoker. And while he did have a lower, gravelly voice... he didn't sound like Christian Bale's cookie monster Batman voice like the guy doing Adam's VA work.

The point is, it's a profound breed of idiocy to attack them for going with a rough voice. J.C. had one. And I would very much miss it if our new protagonist didn't. Commander Shepard, or anything too far from the low, gravelly, noir feel, would just be wrong for many of us fans.

If you don't like the voice, fine. But don't pretend it's just completely inappropriate.

Blade_hunter
4th Oct 2010, 09:57
So let me get this straight, you've played Thief, you've played Metal Gear Solid, but you've never played Deus Ex? That is what they're throwing back to... the original Deus Ex.

Also, shadow-based stealth is only useful in certain situations. Cover-based stealth is useful all the time. Don't knock it. In an ideal world, they would have added the cover mechanic in first person without removing the shadow-stealth altogether.

Fixed ;)


Sorry but there is way too much whine in this thread. If you want to play Deus Ex, go and load it up right now, but personally while I accept the original was great I ultimately want a new and different game not a carbon copy with better graphics. Do I want it to be as good? Of course! But that doesn't equate to nitpicking every single potential element that is different from the first.

This is a case of wait and see.

As for cutscenes in games I actually think they were one of the greatest things to come into gaming, as long as they're used effectively. Someone mentioned MGS4? Well, that was an example of how not to use them: an absolute bombardment, a veritable orgy of non-interactive content in an interactive medium. Cutscenes are hugely effective for one thing in particular: immersion. When they're done right they're not only great in their own right but they enhance the gameplay as well by giving it plot-based context. However, when you overdo them, you achieve the complete opposite - you cause the player to lose interest and detach themselves from the game and its plot/characters.

Cutscenes aren't a bad thing, games that simply overuse them are.

Actually second what I see and even the announcements that's much more a place to worry about than being satisfied about this point. Deus Ex had cutscenes but they were all well placed, and there is no complaint about them in the case of Deus Ex. But in the case of HR there is. I won't complain about the one where Adam is on the plane, this one seems much more necessary than useless. Now the others are misplaced.

@Pinky, there is no radar by default, but there is an augmentation for it.
@xAcerbusx, shadow stealth is a cover based stealth / line of sight stealth with the involvement of shadows, it's more evolved but need places with some darkness to be used properly. actually the cover system allows you to see what's happen without exposing yourself because it's in third person.

And finally I never wanted a carbon copy of the first with a great new story, and screwed up graphics, I'm aware that the first game needs some improvements, but, I can safely say that Deus Ex had the blueprint for the perfect game, but some numbers weren't well selected, and of course there was some technical limitations at the time;

Aqueous
4th Oct 2010, 13:56
Fixed ;)

Actually second what I see and even the announcements that's much more a place to worry about than being satisfied about this point. Deus Ex had cutscenes but they were all well placed, and there is no complaint about them in the case of Deus Ex. But in the case of HR there is. I won't complain about the one where Adam is on the plane, this one seems much more necessary than useless. Now the others are misplaced.

I don't think you get my point though because your post sounds very similar to what I was pointing out. Everyone in this forum (including your post to a degree) is religiously comparing it to Deus Ex and judging its quality based upon how closely it follows the structure of the original rather than evaluating it as a game in its own right. My point is that it's a new game, it WILL deviate from the first because we're 10 years later - and you know what? Good! That isn't to say I didn't love the first but if you never change anything then nothing is ever improved. It may have more cutscenes or less but it's impossible to say whether this works as well without playing the game and experiencing the narrative.

Failure is the risk of innovation, but it's a risk I'm happy games developers take on from time to time.

This isn't a jab at your post by the way, just I'm trying to explain exactly what I meant.


Indeed. Every few weeks some newbie comes on the forum and spouts the same ignorant gibberish.

Well, he did have some solid words in the second half of his post. He understands the cutscene debate well enough.

So I'll give him a thumbs-up for that.
:thumb:

Newbie? I didn't realize debate or posting on this forum was a computer-game skill. I've played the first two games, I have an opinion on the third game and I have an Eidos account - that's all I require to post on these forums, your approval is not a pre-requisite especially considering you're not a mod or admin. If my opinion differs from yours, so be it, that doesn't make it gibberish. In spite of the partial positivity in your post the arrogance of its tone amazes me and I certainly hope it isn't representative of you (ie. is a misunderstanding) or the Deus Ex fan-base.


Right on the money. Welcome :wave:

Heya :)

AaronJ
4th Oct 2010, 14:09
Nonsense! I'm not. :p

Seconded. Some of us have departed that train.

In favor of Faridah Malik's helicopter.

kikilkiki
4th Oct 2010, 14:10
We are all worried my friend.

Speak for yourself mate.
I'm a DX 1 and IW player and been looking forward to DXHR since it was announced. Apart from health regen (which I can live with), this game looks brilliant.

Aqueous
4th Oct 2010, 14:12
Speak for yourself mate.
I'm a DX 1 and IW player and been looking forward to DXHR since it was announced. Apart from health regen (which I can live with), this game looks brilliant.

I wouldn't worry too much about health regen by the way. I know it's a different series but Mass Effect fans had the same concerns about health regen in ME2 but it turned out absolutely fine. What it does suggest though is that there will be alot more risk to your character if we're getting 'free' health regen.

kikilkiki
4th Oct 2010, 14:25
I wouldn't worry too much about health regen by the way. I know it's a different series but Mass Effect fans had the same concerns about health regen in ME2 but it turned out absolutely fine. What it does suggest though is that there will be alot more risk to your character if we're getting 'free' health regen.

I'm not really worried but find health packs create a lot more tension and force you to manage that resource. With health regen, as long as you can trail back and find a good camping spot, you're usually ok. That tactic worked pretty well with ME2 as well.

Regardless, just thought I'd offer a contrarian point of view to a lot of the drama queen comments I've seen on the board lately. Good luck to the dev team.:thumb:

Aqueous
4th Oct 2010, 14:27
I'm not really worried but find health packs create a lot more tension and force you to manage that resource. With health regen, as long as you can trail back and find a good camping spot, you're usually ok. That tactic worked pretty well with ME2 as well.

This is true actually, let's hope it doesn't make cover too powerful a gameplay mechanic like it did in ME2 (covering from the final boss in that game to avoid its attacks was...laughable). If the cover is destructible it'd be fantastic!

Mindmute
4th Oct 2010, 14:51
If the cover is destructible it'd be fantastic!

Agreed. Sadly though, judging from the gameplay demos, it appears that 90% of the cover available in the warehouse where the gunfight takes place was indestructable.
Still waiting to see if the final version sticks with that, but I doubt they'd change it at this point since it might imply a redesign of the level layout so that you can also use mobility to cope with destructible cover.

NKD
4th Oct 2010, 15:19
Agreed. Sadly though, judging from the gameplay demos, it appears that 90% of the cover available in the warehouse where the gunfight takes place was indestructable.
Still waiting to see if the final version sticks with that, but I doubt they'd change it at this point since it might imply a redesign of the level layout so that you can also use mobility to cope with destructible cover.

I doubt we'll see much destructible cover. That would probably cause issues with balancing level design for both combat and stealth. Forcing the combat-oriented players into Benny Hill style circle strafing is a bit cheese. You can force them to move from cover to cover without blowing it up and potentially screwing them. All you have to do is have the enemy move around so that you can't stay in just one piece of cover forever in a prolonged shootout.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2010, 15:34
Failure is the risk of innovation, but it's a risk I'm happy games developers take on from time to time.


Not trying to attack here, but how the [bleep] is EM "innovating" with anything in this game? What component have they added that hasn't been harvested from some other recently-successful franchise?

Think of the gameplay elements they've added to the, for lack of better term, "Deus Ex formula":

1. Cover-based stealth (Gears of War, Rainbow Six: Vegas)
2. Regenerating health (Halo, Call of Duty, just about every other FPS on the market)
3. 3rd person, non-interactive cutscenes (too many options to name)
4. Conversation wheel (Mass Effect)
5. Arm blade melee takedowns (Assassin's Creed)

This is hardly "innovative," if you ask me.

Blade_hunter
4th Oct 2010, 15:38
I doubt we'll see much destructible cover. That would probably cause issues with balancing level design for both combat and stealth. Forcing the combat-oriented players into Benny Hill style circle strafing is a bit cheese. You can force them to move from cover to cover without blowing it up and potentially screwing them. All you have to do is have the enemy move around so that you can't stay in just one piece of cover forever in a prolonged shootout.

I don't think so, also there is an easy solution -> bullet penetration, that will force the players to get a certain degree of mobility without having an ultimate cover spot and sit back like many games with cover system ...

nomotog
4th Oct 2010, 16:05
Not trying to attack here, but how the [bleep] is EM "innovating" with anything in this game? What component have they added that hasn't been harvested from some other recently-successful franchise?

Think of the gameplay elements they've added to the, for lack of better term, "Deus Ex formula":

1. Cover-based stealth (Gears of War, Rainbow Six: Vegas)
2. Regenerating health (Halo, Call of Duty, just about every other FPS on the market)
3. 3rd person, non-interactive cutscenes (too many options to name)
4. Conversation wheel (Mass Effect)
5. Arm blade melee takedowns (Assassin's Creed)

This is hardly "innovative," if you ask me.

I think the way they are doing skills is fairly innovative.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 16:09
Newbie? I didn't realize debate or posting on this forum was a computer-game skill. I've played the first two games, I have an opinion on the third game and I have an Eidos account - that's all I require to post on these forums, your approval is not a pre-requisite especially considering you're not a mod or admin. If my opinion differs from yours, so be it, that doesn't make it gibberish. In spite of the partial positivity in your post the arrogance of its tone amazes me and I certainly hope it isn't representative of you (ie. is a misunderstanding) or the Deus Ex fan-base.

You live in your own world and have no understanding of what's being said around you. Maybe there's a language barrier, but it still makes talking to you rather futile.
But I am a being of futility, so...

First off, I called you a newbie because you ARE A NEWBIE. I never said that makes your opinions or perspective worthless.
If you were not a newbie, you would have seen many, many others come on here, and with their very first post, make the same moronic statements you made... on your very first post.

Everyone knows I'm arrogant, but it is your arrogance that is the root problem here. Your collective-newbie-simplification that everyone who claims to have a problem with Human Revolution is only troubled because they want a clone of Deus Ex. In fact, the detractors have gone to great lengths to illustrate their issues with the game, and they've shown it has nothing to do with wanting a remake of Deus Ex.

And yet, every few weeks, another YOU comes on and makes a nearly identical post, using tried and untrue clichés... gibberish.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2010, 16:17
Everyone knows I'm arrogant, but it is your arrogance that is the root problem here. Your collective-newbie-simplification that everyone who claims to have a problem with Human Revolution is only troubled because they want a clone of Deus Ex. In fact, the detractors have gone to great lengths to illustrate their issues with the game, and they've shown it has nothing to do with wanting a remake of Deus Ex.

And yet, every few weeks, another YOU comes on and makes a nearly identical post, using tried and untrue clichés... gibberish.

Ha! I'll say this for you, Pinky, you are entertaining. And right on the money, in this particular argument/discussion/debate. :thumb:

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 16:23
Not trying to attack here, but how the [bleep] is EM "innovating" with anything in this game?

The Social Combat is innovative.
Oblivion tried it, to terrible effect, but the concept is still innovative... and very much needed to further the now stale RPG dialog conventions. If you use your imagination, you can see how bright a place this road could lead the industry.

Apart from that, HR isn't doing anything that hasn't been done before. But Deus Ex didn't have very many truly innovative mechanics either. Its brilliance was always that it brought them all together under such a wonderful roof... which is innovative as well.
Human Revolution also has that potential.

Shralla
4th Oct 2010, 16:28
You know, maybe there are so many of those posts because there's something to them.

:tinfoilhat:

Ashpolt
4th Oct 2010, 16:29
The Social Combat is innovative.
Oblivion tried it, to terrible effect, but the concept is still innovative... and very much needed to further the now stale RPG dialog conventions. If you use your imagination, you can see how bright a place this road could lead the industry.

Am I the only one who still doesn't see how this is any more than a PR spin on what RPGs have been doing for years? OK, so if you choose the right conversation options, you'll get certain bonuses, and choose the wrong ones and certain options will be blocked off to you: that's not new or innovative, it's been a core part of RPGs for years! OK, so you'll have to judge your "opponent" based on their facial expressions, but you said it yourself, Oblivion did it - the fact that they did it badly doesn't mean this is innovative. Alpha Protocol did something similar: maybe you didn't judge people based on their facial expressions, but you took into account what you knew about their character (through intel and past encounters) and how they reacted to different conversation paths. If anything, that sounds like a more in-depth version of what DXHR is attempting: you're judging on a long scale rather than minute-by-minute. Either way - unless there's some marvellous aspect of this that I've missed (despite reading every preview I can get my hands on) then this is not an innovative system, it's just being spun as one, and people aren't thinking to look beyond the PR spin.

AlexOfSpades
4th Oct 2010, 16:30
Pinky, was all that really necessary?

Couldnt you just disagree with him and point him why he's wrong, instead of making a showoff of how incredible you are just because you're an old member and your postcount is high?

Really.

Come on.

nomotog
4th Oct 2010, 16:31
Am I the only one who still doesn't see how this is any more than a PR spin on what RPGs have been doing for years? OK, so if you choose the right conversation options, you'll get certain bonuses, and choose the wrong ones and certain options will be blocked off to you: that's not new or innovative, it's been a core part of RPGs for years! OK, so you'll have to judge your "opponent" based on their facial expressions, but you said it yourself, Oblivion did it - the fact that they did it badly doesn't mean this is innovative. Alpha Protocol did something similar: maybe you didn't judge people based on their facial expressions, but you took into account what you knew about their character (through intel and past encounters) and how they reacted to different conversation paths. If anything, that sounds like a more in-depth version of what DXHR is attempting: you're judging on a long scale rather than minute-by-minute. Either way - unless there's some marvellous aspect of this that I've missed (despite reading every preview I can get my hands on) then this is not an innovative system, it's just being spun as one, and people aren't thinking to look beyond the PR spin.

Your not the only one. I said the same thing when I heard about it.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 16:43
Am I the only one who still doesn't see how this is any more than a PR spin on what RPGs have been doing for years? OK, so if you choose the right conversation options, you'll get certain bonuses, and choose the wrong ones and certain options will be blocked off to you: that's not new or innovative, it's been a core part of RPGs for years! OK, so you'll have to judge your "opponent" based on their facial expressions, but you said it yourself, Oblivion did it - the fact that they did it badly doesn't mean this is innovative. Alpha Protocol did something similar: maybe you didn't judge people based on their facial expressions, but you took into account what you knew about their character (through intel and past encounters) and how they reacted to different conversation paths. If anything, that sounds like a more in-depth version of what DXHR is attempting: you're judging on a long scale rather than minute-by-minute. Either way - unless there's some marvellous aspect of this that I've missed (despite reading every preview I can get my hands on) then this is not an innovative system, it's just being spun as one, and people aren't thinking to look beyond the PR spin.

Did you really have to write that in one big block of text? :eek:

Here's what you need to know:
Reading faces and body language is not something that's been done well at all in videogames. In fact, most RPGs, you don't even need to look at the NPC to navigate a conversation. It's all just dialog options; choosing which sounds best for your character. If you need to persuade someone, you can upgrade your persuade skill... with points.

In Human Revolution, you have to read the character. And with certain Augs, you can get profile information, heartbeat monitoring, perspiration, to help you in these situations. But the base idea is that you are engaged with the NPC, not just dialog options. You have to try and figure out who they are... what sort of person they are.

If you can't grasp why this might be good or exciting, then we really are at an impasse in this conversation.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 16:58
Pinky, was all that really necessary?

Couldnt you just disagree with him and point him why he's wrong, instead of making a showoff of how incredible you are just because you're an old member and your postcount is high?

Really.

Come on.

What did I do wrong now?

If you look at how this whole thing started, I scolded him for blindly attacking other people's opinions. "Blindly" being the optimal word. "ignorant" being the word I used. But I then softened the whole thing with praise for the part of his post that contained actual reasoning.

But then he mutates into some petulant snarling orangutan, bemoaning my use of the term newbie (which I wrote in the least offensive manner possible. I'm looking at you n00b), and somehow missing the heart of what I actually said.

I had to respond. It would be wrong of me not to.

Postscript. It warms me to know you think of me as "incredible".

Blade_hunter
4th Oct 2010, 16:59
heartbeat monitoring, perspiration, to help you in these situations.

Source please, because that was one of the things I was suggesting about them when I talk about the hopeful thing they can come with.

Aqueous
4th Oct 2010, 17:15
You live in your own world and have no understanding of what's being said around you. Maybe there's a language barrier, but it still makes talking to you rather futile.
But I am a being of futility, so...

Fortunately, I am not, so I'll take exception to this...quite honestly retarded statement.


First off, I called you a newbie because you ARE A NEWBIE. I never said that makes your opinions or perspective worthless.
If you were not a newbie, you would have seen many, many others come on here, and with their very first post, make the same moronic statements you made... on your very first post.

A newbie at what? Posting on these forums? If that's the extent of you using then word then I'll take exception to it since it's essentially a pointless observation. I'll have to remember to point that out to every new poster at any forums I vacate: "By the way, you're new the forums!"

In addition, what does it matter if another has made a similar comment or post? That's irrelevant. That's like saying if you post an opinion that aligns with an already posted opinion...you shouldn't post your opinion. Well, we'd best remove poll threads from the site then since you can't have any expression of unity of opinion! You also still haven't explained what exactly was moronic about the post which is a usually pre-requisite to judgment (you know, actually backing it up) From where I'm sitting, the only moronic garble in this discussion is coming from you in the form of unsubstanciated insults and mindless bickering.


Everyone knows I'm arrogant, but it is your arrogance that is the root problem here. Your collective-newbie-simplification that everyone who claims to have a problem with Human Revolution is only troubled because they want a clone of Deus Ex. In fact, the detractors have gone to great lengths to illustrate their issues with the game, and they've shown it has nothing to do with wanting a remake of Deus Ex.

So if I admit I'm arrogant that makes it ok. :lmao:

I've seen people having a problem with DX:HR in this very thread whose posts I didn't comment on, or in fact agreed with, because they actually had a reasonable argument to back up their opinions rather than pessimistic crud based upon nothing. I have no problem with people who taking exception to the game, but I do have a problem with judgmental bull&"%@ when we've not so much as even seen a decent demo of the game (key word before you nitpick: decent). You're ignorant as to how the game will pan out so why even bother placing any judgment on it? Not to mention picking arguments over it. It's all very well being arrogant but when you spout egotistical opinions and needless insults without a whit of stated foundation - even if there is foundation to be stated - you just end up looking like a moron. It's one thing to disagree with someone, that's absolutely fine and I like debate, but rude and idiotic people like yourself just bore me.


And yet, every few weeks, another YOU comes on and makes a nearly identical post, using tried and untrue clichés... gibberish.

Really? Well, many of the posters may indeed not want a DX clone but they're not doing a very good job of expressing that in their posts. No matter how much you might say you don't want one everything in the tone of these whine posts points to the contrary. Like I said, I have no problem with people commenting about what they don't like the look of in DX:HR, what they would rather have instead etc. etc. but when every single point they dislike about the game is expressed as negative through comparison to the original DX what other conclusion is there to come to? Seriously, look over some of the posts, they're flooded with: "We don't need X amount of cutscenes because DX didn't have them" or "I don't like the third-person stealth camera because DX didn't have it" - it's all compared to DX as a pillar of judgment so if they're not looking for a DX clone why the constant comparison?

Regardless, I'm done with you.

Mindmute
4th Oct 2010, 17:22
Really? Well, many of the posters may indeed not want a DX clone but they're not doing a very good job of expressing that in their posts. No matter how much you might say you don't want one everything in the tone of these whine posts points to the contrary.


Just stepping in to say that this particular part felt arrogant to me too. Some of us have been here discussing pros and cons of the design choices we know of so far and a few came to the conclusion that they're not happy with them.

Nowhere in any of the posts in this thread someone even comes close to hinting that they want a clone or remake of DX. All they're saying is that some of the fundamental ideas behind the parts that worked well in DX might be in danger.
Asking for a game that follows the same basic principles as the main game of the series and manages to pull them off isn't the same as asking for a clone of it.


As for your cutscenes arguement, not one single sensible poster said we don't want cutscenes because DX doesn't have them. What we've been discussing for weeks is wether or not they cheapen some of the experience by creating a barrier where you watch the protagonist do an action, rather than doing the action yourself.
I'm inclined to agree with Pinky that you're purposely misreading posts to support your preconception.



I'd also like to know where you get off calling him moronic and insultive if you're repplying in a similar, if not more aggressive tone. If there's even a mention of the ToU of the forum in this thread, I hope it's not directed at only one person.

Aqueous
4th Oct 2010, 17:24
Just stepping in to say that this particular part felt arrogant to me too. Some of us have been here discussing pros and cons of the design choices we know of so far and a few came to the conclusion that they're not happy with them.

Nowhere in any of the posts in this thread someone even comes close to hinting that they want a clone or remake of DX. All they're saying is that some of the fundamental ideas behind the parts that worked well in DX might be in danger.
Asking for a game that follows the same basic principles as the main game of the series and manages to pull them off isn't the same as asking for a clone of it.


As for your cutscenes arguement, not one single sensible poster said we don't want cutscenes because DX doesn't have them. What we've been discussing for weeks is wether or not they cheapen some of the experience by creating a barrier where you watch the protagonist do an action, rather than doing the action yourself.
I'm inclined to agree with Pinky that you're purposely misreading posts to support your preconception.

Perhaps I didn't phrase myself properly there: I'm not saying every poster does this I'm just saying alot of the posts I've seen do this. And I also understand your point that you want certain consistency but I do believe it starts to get a bit nitpicky when every potential difference is grounds for crucifixition.

I don't necessarily disagree with him on every point either but the tone of his post completely invalidates anything he may say in my eyes. If it had been written in a similar fashion as this quoted post I would've been more inclined to perhaps agree with segments of it. That's the purpose of debate and even arguing, to ultimately come to a mid-point of agreement rather brow-beating someone. I'm completely capable of disagreeing with someone without necessarily arguing with them or stamping my feet but ultimately if I'm attacked you can expect I'm going to throw some mud back. Though fortunately that will stop now.

Also I have no doubt sensible posters see the benefit of cutscenes but my response was actually to someone who trashed them entirely. I'm not purposely misreading posts but rather I'm responding to posts that perhaps you guys (having been here for awhile) filter out without even realizing it due to them not being "sensible posts" - if you get what I mean. If someone says they don't want cutscenes in a game because they're bad for gaming then I will voice my opinion on that, regardless of whether that person has a reputation for being a good or bad poster - that really does just come with the territory of being new (and heck, I may even do it if I've been here awhile trying to swing them around to seeing another point of view).

I apologise if my post offends anyone outside of the scope of the argument I was in but if someone annoys me then naturally my language becomes hardened.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 17:27
Source please, because that was one of the things I was suggesting about them when I talk about the hopeful thing they can come with.

I did some Googling, and I can't find it. I'm thinking it was a Dugas video interview. ...I hope I'm not just making this up. :eek:

Mindmute
4th Oct 2010, 17:29
Perhaps I didn't phrase myself properly there: I'm not saying every poster does this I'm just saying alot of the posts I've seen do this.

That's what I'm not getting... Could you please quote a few to sate my curiousity a little?

(Trying to understand where you're coming from with this)



I did some Googling, and I can't find it. I'm thinking it was a Dugas video interview. ...I hope I'm not just making this up. :eek:

For some reason I seem to remember that too, so I doubt you're just making it up.

Blade_hunter
4th Oct 2010, 17:36
I actually stay with the Idea it's more complex, of course we can "hack" the social battle with an aug, but actually if done right the augmentation, I hope, is giving more subtle information, rather than the guy is lying to me or the girl is trying to date with me, no really, I prefer something that shows the health status of my adversary for example (heart beat, sweating, adrenalin level and such), something that can also help to seduce my victim with pheromones.
Actually the possibilities are open.

Ok, in a game for example nothing like pheromones will really work, but to translate this in a game, that will change the options available to us, as for certain augmented people using pheromones against us, that could be interesting since the fighting would be harder that way.

I just post my post in case, of course I omitted a lot of its content, but that's the essential

Aqueous
4th Oct 2010, 17:39
That's what I'm not getting... Could you please quote a few to sate my curiousity a little?

(Trying to understand where you're coming from with this)

Here:


Hello, I just posted this on Gamespot and I figured I'd post this on here as well;

You know, I've been following this game since it's announcement and as a fan of the Deus Ex franchise I have to say I'm a little worried now. All of the footage that I've seen about this game has been in-game cutscenes. Not once have I actually seen ANY real honest-to-God in-game playing with a hud or anything like that. This worries me because Deus Ex has never used CGI cutscenes to tell it's story and having seen so many now I'm starting to believe it might be cutscene heavy. Also I'm astounded there is already so much praise for a game that, as I stated earlier, shown zero real gameplay. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction....?


Actually there is ZERO pre-rendered cutscenes in the game read the FAQ thread to know, but the game has a lot of cutscenes, much more than the previous titles. and about cutscenes there is where my worry is about them


Actually second what I see and even the announcements that's much more a place to worry about than being satisfied about this point. Deus Ex had cutscenes but they were all well placed, and there is no complaint about them in the case of Deus Ex. But in the case of HR there is. I won't complain about the one where Adam is on the plane, this one seems much more necessary than useless. Now the others are misplaced.

Notice the constant comparisons to DX or IW? I mean constant. Also, in my original post I said "in this thread" but to be honest these constant negative comparisons spiral way out of just this thread.

This isn't a jibe at those posters by the way, I'm simply highlighting what I disagreed with. They may not dislike cutscenes entirely but the constant comparisons to a 10-year old game are a little off-putting.

In addition, I may have wrongly interpreted this but the following I interpreted as the poster saying "I don't like cutscenes" due to the context:


I never understood this. If I like movies, and I like videogames, then WHO CARES if the two are in the same package? If anything I like it more, mgs4 ftw


Deus Ex isn't MGS 4 and actually when I play a game I don't want to be interrupted every 5 minutes just because I activated a script that activated a cutscene.
Liking movies and games doesn't mean we like them in the same package, I play a game because I want to play, not sitting down and watch a movie. Same goes for the movie I don't want to press play or do a combination of keys everytime during the time I watch it.



I read it that way because the post Blade responded to spoke of movies and video-games being mixed into a single package (which most games do nowadays anyway) and he spoke of disliking that. It could be interpreted he meant MGS4-only or the concept of mixing those two interactive pillars - I read it as the latter due to the context established by the original statement.

Mindmute
4th Oct 2010, 17:50
Notice the constant comparisons to DX or IW? I mean constant. Also, in my original post I said "in this thread" but to be honest these constant negative comparisons spiral way out of just this thread.


I see your point, however, knowing Blade_hunter's opinions by now, the comparison to DX is purely coincidental, I'm pretty sure that he could find other games to reflect his opinion on how the cutscene style and placement should be.



This isn't a jibe at those posters by the way, I'm simply highlighting what I disagreed with. They may not dislike cutscenes entirely but the constant comparisons to a 10-year old game are a little off-putting.

It's still unavoidable to compare this game to DX, despite the age difference. For all intents and purposes this is a game on a series spawned by DX. Most people here enjoyed some of the structure and content of the game otherwise they wouldn't be here after 10 years. Asking for some similarity on things that they think worked better as they were in the original is still a far cry from asking for a clone as far as I'm concerned (it's just a matter of saying they preffered how that part had been done back then).

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2010, 20:51
It's still unavoidable to compare this game to DX, despite the age difference. For all intents and purposes this is a game on a series spawned by DX. Most people here enjoyed some of the structure and content of the game otherwise they wouldn't be here after 10 years. Asking for some similarity on things that they think worked better as they were in the original is still a far cry from asking for a clone as far as I'm concerned (it's just a matter of saying they preffered how that part had been done back then).

No joke. DX:HR still has "Deus Ex" in the title. Why wouldn't we compare it to the original game?

Eidos has every right to come up with original IP. I would applaud them for it. And sure, it could have all the multi-path problem solving, cyberpunk themes, real world locales, etc that we know and love from Deus Ex. But when you put "Deus Ex" in the title and set the timeframe chronologically before the original, then go out of your way to emphasize how your team has "focused on retaining the core experience of the original series" and repeat how everyone on your staff is such a huge fan of the original game, then I think you have to stick closer to the source material.

No, we don't want a re-release of Deus Ex with shinier graphics. But we do want to recognize the gaming world. We do want immersion. We do want to tell our own story, not play the game the developers want us to. We want the same experience, and I have a LOT of doubts that Deus Ex: Human Revolution will deliver anything even close to that experience that has kept me ranting and raving about Deus Ex ten years later.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 20:53
I just post my post in case, of course I omitted a lot of its content, but that's the essential

I'm with ya, man. It would be awesome. And I think there is some of that available in aug-upgrades.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 21:07
A newbie at what? Posting on these forums? If that's the extent of you using then word then I'll take exception to it since it's essentially a pointless observation. I'll have to remember to point that out to every new poster at any forums I vacate: "By the way, you're new the forums!"

This is where you're going to go astray at every step in your life. You got so worked up with my "tone" that you can't even wrap your mind around the basics of what I'm saying.

Being a newbie to these forums means you have not witnessed the history of these forums. So you cannot point to a member that's been here for years, and claim he has not made his case for why he dislikes something. But that's exactly what you've done.

There is context, and history and shorthand, and when a newbie comes in and says "clearly, they just can't stand change of any kind", it's insulting, ignorant, arrogant, and most importantly... wrong. It's not your opinion I've taken issue with. People love to hide behind "opinion". You can't have an opinion without information. You can't claim something hasn't happened, when it has.

You will never be an individual of any consequence if you can't comprehend how being a newbie might be relevant to the points you were making.
It wasn't a derogatory word I threw out for no reason... it is why you failed.

Ashpolt
4th Oct 2010, 21:45
Here's what you need to know:
Reading faces and body language is not something that's been done well at all in videogames. In fact, most RPGs, you don't even need to look at the NPC to navigate a conversation. It's all just dialog options; choosing which sounds best for your character. If you need to persuade someone, you can upgrade your persuade skill... with points.

Not being done well is not the same thing as not being done at all. And as the question here is whether it's innovative, rather than whether it's good, the former is what matters.


In Human Revolution, you have to read the character. And with certain Augs, you can get profile information, heartbeat monitoring, perspiration, to help you in these situations. But the base idea is that you are engaged with the NPC, not just dialog options. You have to try and figure out who they are... what sort of person they are.

If you can't grasp why this might be good or exciting, then we really are at an impasse in this conversation.

Firstly, again, the matter at hand was not whether it was good or exciting, but whether it's innovative.

Secondly, if we do want to change the subject to quality rather than innovation, those augs have the potential to take it beyond Oblivion's system, I'll give you that - but given the way the rest of the game is going, I will make you a gentleman's bet that they will actually strip away complexity, rather than adding it: instead of telling you "his heartbeat has spiked, he's perspiring more" and letting you make your own conclusions, it'll have a few generic cardiograms, random fluctuating graphs etc, and then a big panel saying "HE'S LYING" or "HE DOESN'T LIKE THIS SUBJECT." Either that or the facial expressions will be so over the top as to make these augs all but useless. Gentleman's wager.

I would respond to Aqueous, but I just can't be bothered any more. As others have said, we get someone come along and spout this same crap every week or two, and I got tired of explaining my views about 20 times ago. Keep up the good work, guys.

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 22:00
Ashpolt, as for how the system will turn out in the end, I certainly don't know. I've always been clear on my need to handle the bloody thing before I'm finally sold. But based on the footage of the Tong conversation, I think it's safe to say the emotions are not overdone.

On the subject of innovation... I looked the word up, hoping for a little wiggle-room, but it does tend to mean "strictly new concepts". Which is a shame. But I don't think it's unfair to say that if there's only one team out there that's making ground on a certain area, that they're innovative. The base concept might not be new, but if they're the only ones working to further it...

Why must you begrudge them their attempts? They've failed at nothing yet.

Ashpolt
4th Oct 2010, 22:30
Why must you begrudge them their attempts? They've failed at nothing yet.

They've failed at selling me on a Deus Ex game, which should be like selling water to a thirsty rich man. That's enough.

And I don't think EM are the only ones working to further this concept - as mentioned before, Alpha Protocol did something similar (albeit not identical, but in some ways deeper) and that worked really well. And that's assuming we are prepared to give them credit for actually furthering it, rather than just putting a spin on the same old mechanics - which I'm certainly not willing to do yet (in case I didn't drum that point home enough earlier! :P)

Pinky_Powers
4th Oct 2010, 23:01
They've failed at selling me on a Deus Ex game,

Fair enough.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Oct 2010, 23:32
I just keep coming back to Project Snowblind.

It started as another entry in the Deus Ex franchise. And the developers wanted to incorporate some new ideas into the tried and true formula. Fair enough.

But eventually they strayed so far away from the "core" of Deus Ex that they realized it was a completely new game. And so they developed their own IP. It was still pretty similar. Still had the futuristic setting, still had augmentations, and so forth. It was not Deus Ex, however, and it didn't sell particularly well because...honestly, it was just an average game.

What I worry may happen is that Human Revolution, unlike Project Snowblind, may turn out to be a hugely successful game (maybe even a game that is fun to play, not unlike Halo or Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto...admit it, haters, these games are fun. Stupid, lowest-common-denominator driven, shallow, and addictive as hell). And then the success of DXHR will prompt developers to continue along the same path, to the point where anything and everything we once recognized as "Deus Ex" will be lost in the mist of nostalgia and ranting internet posts about the "golden age of gaming."

Shralla
5th Oct 2010, 01:44
God you are so painfully condescending even when you're saying good things about something. There's nothing "stupid" or "shallow" about Halo or Call of Duty. Well, except for the atrocious balance problems in MW2. But that's just stupid. And its origins stems from the fact that the game is NOT shallow, and in fact has so many options and combinations that several of them break the game.

I don't even like Call of Duty, but seriously dude. Not every game has to be literature-worthy to be a good game. And not being literature-worthy doesn't make it "shallow." It makes it a goddamn game.

OwlSolar
5th Oct 2010, 03:26
Yeah, that bothers me as well. Say what you like, but calling something stupid or shallow just because it's popular is outright elitism, and that's putting it nicely. Can someone, for once, give a reason why they find those games stupid and shallow? I expect that everyone knows this already, but just because you dislike something does not make it stupid or shallow.
And let's face it. Someone liking a "highbrow" game like Deus Ex does not make them any smarter than someone who likes a "lowbrow" game. If they think that it does, then they're just being pretentious.


And by the way, cut it out with all this "newbie" stuff. It's obvious that there's not going to be an understanding here. Either accept that no one means any offense and let it drop, or continue over Private Messages.

Dead-Eye
5th Oct 2010, 03:58
I just keep coming back to Project Snowblind.

It started as another entry in the Deus Ex franchise. And the developers wanted to incorporate some new ideas into the tried and true formula. Fair enough.

But eventually they strayed so far away from the "core" of Deus Ex that they realized it was a completely new game. And so they developed their own IP. It was still pretty similar. Still had the futuristic setting, still had augmentations, and so forth. It was not Deus Ex, however, and it didn't sell particularly well because...honestly, it was just an average game.

What I worry may happen is that Human Revolution, unlike Project Snowblind, may turn out to be a hugely successful game (maybe even a game that is fun to play, not unlike Halo or Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto...admit it, haters, these games are fun. Stupid, lowest-common-denominator driven, shallow, and addictive as hell). And then the success of DXHR will prompt developers to continue along the same path, to the point where anything and everything we once recognized as "Deus Ex" will be lost in the mist of nostalgia and ranting internet posts about the "golden age of gaming."

I think this is why it's impotent for Human Revaluation to have a story that tares off from Deus Ex canon. Not only will Human Revaluation be saying that a Deus Ex sequel can be made but that any studio (with the rights of course) can have their own versions of a Deus Ex game that can be as different or as nostalgic as they would like it to be. So someday someone, maybe even you, might come along and say I think the game should be more like the original. And then they will make a worthy sequel to Deus Ex.

tartarus_sauce
5th Oct 2010, 06:13
Yeah, I'm not concerned. The conversations in the original were a huge part of the game and it never bothered me that some weren't even branched. As long as the cutscenes are tasteful and engaging, and not just 'splosions, I don't forsee any problems.

Irate_Iguana
5th Oct 2010, 09:06
Can someone, for once, give a reason why they find those games stupid and shallow?

While I wouldn't call them stupid, they are shallow. I'll restrict myself to CoD MW2 since I actually played that game and liked it for what it was. The story is nothing to write home about. It is a pretty mess of weird missions tied loosely to an overarching plot filled with holes. The characters aren't well written and there is nothing more to the game than going somewhere and shooting the **** out of people. That's fine and dandy. The game doesn't pretend to be something it is not. People expect a shooter in modern times and that is exactly what they get. Nothing more and nothing less.

The multiplayer isn't exactly layered and strategic. There are a few weapons, perks and exploits that are so horribly broken that they are annoying. For the most part multiplayer is about choosing which gun you think is best for whatever reason and just going around and doing your things. There isn't a whole lot to take into consideration. No serious strategies to keep in mind. Even coordinated teamwork really only gets you so far. A bad spawn or a lucky noobtube 'nade and your carefully thought out strategy is down the ****ter. Again, this doesn't matter for that game. This does mean that the game is shallow.

WildcatPhoenix
5th Oct 2010, 13:44
Yeah, that bothers me as well. Say what you like, but calling something stupid or shallow just because it's popular is outright elitism, and that's putting it nicely. Can someone, for once, give a reason why they find those games stupid and shallow? I expect that everyone knows this already, but just because you dislike something does not make it stupid or shallow.
And let's face it. Someone liking a "highbrow" game like Deus Ex does not make them any smarter than someone who likes a "lowbrow" game. If they think that it does, then they're just being pretentious.


Comrades, stop being so damn sensitive. I play Halo: Reach almost every night. Before that, I was a Modern Warfare 2 junkie (and even more of a CoD fan back in the killin' Nazis days). I do not think people who play the game are stupid or shallow.

But the storytelling in Halo and Call of Duty is weak. Weak, weak, weak. It exists to propel you to the next breathtaking action sequence, not make you care about Master Chief or Soap. They are great games, but they are not great stories.

Sure, that's my opinion. And I have a right to voice it. This is a bloody forum, after all. :hmm:

OwlSolar
5th Oct 2010, 23:25
Sure, that's my opinion. And I have a right to voice it. This is a bloody forum, after all. Who's being sensitive now? :)

Anyway, I wouldn't say that story is the only criteria for a game being shallow or not. Don't you think it's possible that a game can be deep without a story? Granted, I like a nice story as much as the next guy, but still.
And let's face it. On it's own terms, Deus Ex's story wasn't that great either.

I'm not really going to argue about Modern Warfare.