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Rindill the Red
27th Sep 2010, 18:13
Must the video game industry melt into a cesspool of casual **** before we see true advancement of the video game art again?

[EDIT] For a slightly more cogent and reasonable rant...

Some game types ARE inherently "hardcore": things like RTS's, TBS's, "traditional" rpg's, etc. These are games whose very virtue is their depth and complexity, read immersiveness.

What I find horribly wrong about the industry is that devs or marketing or someone in charge are making the connection casual (broader market) == streamlined == simpler == more money. This is simply NOT true.

A triple-A game that by virtue is better with greater depth and complexity is going to be lessened by attempting to "streamline", "casualize", or "popularize" it. It will sell no more copies for being simpler, but will provide less of an experience for players.

Your casual gamer is simply not going to like a game like Civilization or Gothic 4 because of the pure amount of time and effort put into playing them. Trying to attract the "casual" gamer by "streamlining" the game is not going to bring in more casual players, only turn off existing and future hardcore players.

The fact is, the video game market is growing rapidly with or without "casual" gamers. Almost everyone I know plays video games. All of my male classmates when I was in gradeschool, highschool, and college play "hardcore" video games (but also a few girls). My cousins, my neices and nephews, etc. The only people I know not to play video games are those ones with the weird parents who say that they ruin lives, but they find ways to play anyway.

Who, in my experience, has the casual market reached? My sister and my mother... and I can tell you right now that they would never play a game like Civilization or Gothic 4.

The devs want to make a game more "accessible", that's fine... so long as they understand what that means. That doesn't mean making the game simpler... it means having a finely crafted curve to draw people in... and you can only draw people in when you have enough depth, complexity, and interesting mechanics to keep someone who might not otherwise be interested, interested: perhaps turning some casual gamers into hardcore gamers, and keeping the rapidly expanding "hardcore" base.

Otherwise you just get a washed out experience less casual players will be interested in, and much less hardcore players will be interested in.

I think eventually this will become clear, it just hasn't happened yet; the industry may have grown up, but it still has a lot of maturing to do.

luminar
27th Sep 2010, 18:16
Must the video game industry melt into a cesspool of casual **** before we see true advancement of the video game art again?

I have suffered to witness the rape and sodomy of classic franchises and new by the current zeitgeist of greed and the console casual in the gaming industry.

No this is not just a rant brought on by the sudden and concentrated release of the bastard monsters Civ V and Gothic 4 (or maybe it is).

I just...

Deus Ex, years ago you taught me the meaning of quality gaming, now I beg you to help me in my struggle against the direction of the video game industry. I regret that I am unable to present my request to you in person, but my conspiracy has fallen under attack and I'm afraid my mission to guide you safely into the current generation has failed. I, and others like me, have placed information vital to the survival of quality gaming into the memory systems of this forum unit. The search function will know how to retreive it. You must see quality gaming safely delivered to the growing population of players. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Deus Ex; you're my only hope.

Is gothic 4 really that bad? Please say no. I just want a good rpg! One I haven't played.

Corpus
27th Sep 2010, 18:39
I kind of felt let down by Civ V, I knew gothic 4 would suck, gothic 3 wasn't all that good either. Looking forward to the witcher 2 though, looks like one heck of a game.

Shralla
27th Sep 2010, 18:56
Must the video game industry melt into a cesspool of casual **** before we see true advancement of the video game art again?

I don't know. Why don't you look at the history of music and movies and figure it out for yourself?

NKD
27th Sep 2010, 19:07
The current demands of the hardcore customers outpace our collective purchasing power. In short, we want twice the game, but want developers to be okay selling 10 to 20% as many copies. That's not really viable.

It has become expensive to make a game, for a major developer. They can't very well say "We're firing 90% of our staff and going into making niche hardcore games."

The days of "Triple A" games that appeal only to the hardcore are gone. Unless you have $500 to spend per game.

Dead-Eye
27th Sep 2010, 19:12
I have suffered to witness the rape and sodomy of classic franchises...

I'm having a hard time believing this. Did the devs tie you up in a barn as they brought in games and raped them up the butt? How is that even possible? Do videogames even have buttholes?

Or was it like girls that pretended to be franchises? In some weird cosplay session...

Bluey71
27th Sep 2010, 19:12
I don't know. Why don't you look at the history of music and movies and figure it out for yourself?

Hollywood.

Enough said really.

Kodaemon
27th Sep 2010, 19:18
Risen is the real Gothic 4 anyway.

AlexOfSpades
27th Sep 2010, 19:21
I'm having a hard time believing this. Did the devs tie you up in a barn as they brought in games and raped them up the butt? How is that even possible? Do videogames even have buttholes?

Or was it like girls that pretended to be franchises? In some weird cosplay session...

Well the CDs do have a hole...

now.. wait.. ew i didnt said that

:whistle:

hem dazon 90
27th Sep 2010, 19:22
http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Void/Images/1-voidboxart.jpg

Deus_Ex_Machina
27th Sep 2010, 19:23
Risen is the real Gothic 4 anyway.

Is Risen any good?

I was considering picking it up but I know nothing about it.

hem dazon 90
27th Sep 2010, 19:26
Hollywood.

Enough said really.

http://wordonfire.org/getmedia/8f654355-adcf-4127-b4f3-24e3b0c8a83f/District-9.aspx

Kodaemon
27th Sep 2010, 19:38
Is Risen any good?

I was considering picking it up but I know nothing about it.

If you like the Gothic series, you'll like Risen. You can really feel it was made by the same people, with the same mindset. And it's much more polished and less problematic that Gothic 3.

Kodaemon
27th Sep 2010, 19:55
http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/Void/Images/1-voidboxart.jpg

http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7218/icepick.jpg

:thumb:

IOOI
27th Sep 2010, 20:12
It has become expensive to make a game, for a major developer. They can't very well say "We're firing 90% of our staff and going into making niche hardcore games."


Question:
Wouldn't it affect game development labor market (I hope I worded it correctly) and salaries, in the same way, if they went fully casual? I mean, how many people do you need to make a casual game?

JCpies
27th Sep 2010, 20:15
Question:
Wouldn't it affect game development labor market (I hope I worded it correctly) and salaries, in the same way, if they went fully casual? I mean, how many people do you need to make a casual game?

I made a casual game by myself. You click on the white ball to advance to the next round, the ball gets faster each round. :rolleyes: that was a few years ago. When I was 13? Yeah, now I know nintendo employ 15 year olds to develop games like Just Dance and Wii sports.

NKD
27th Sep 2010, 20:32
Question:
Wouldn't it affect game development labor market (I hope I worded it correctly) and salaries, in the same way, if they went fully casual? I mean, how many people do you need to make a casual game?

It depends on what is meant by "casual." When industry people say casual, they are talking about grandma busting a cap in in Mafia Wars on Facebook, or your 5 year old brother playing on the Wii. When hardcore PC gamers talk about casual, the definition is a lot fuzzier, and is used as a label for just about every game made in the last 6 years.

You don't need a big team for a truly casual game. But the "casual" that PC gamers talk about is a very different story. While they may be casual in that they aren't insanely complex, they are still very big games. Expensive artists, voice actors, motion capture animations, and so on. The expectations for quality on these aspects has never been higher. It's part of the reason why games have gotten so much shorter. There's a limit to how much content you can produce at that level of quality in a reasonable period of time.

And it's not just the "filthy console gaming peasants" who demand all these flashy visuals. I doubt PC gamers would be buying $1500-2000 gaming rigs if they didn't care about graphics, while console gamers are running $200-400 pieces of hardware.

I love complex games, and that's a great benefit of the PC as a platform, but it's also a great platform for really superb visuals. I spent a lot of money on my machine, so yeah I expect developers to take advantage of it. And so do a lot of other PC gamers.

But that doesn't come for free.

luminar
27th Sep 2010, 20:36
It depends on what is meant by "casual." When industry people say casual, they are talking about grandma busting a cap in in Mafia Wars on Facebook, or your 5 year old brother playing on the Wii. When hardcore PC gamers talk about casual, the definition is a lot fuzzier, and is used as a label for just about every game made in the last 6 years.

You don't need a big team for a truly casual game. But the "casual" that PC gamers talk about is a very different story. While they may be casual in that they aren't insanely complex, they are still very big games. Expensive artists, voice actors, motion capture animations, and so on. The expectations for quality on these aspects has never been higher. It's part of the reason why games have gotten so much shorter. There's a limit to how much content you can produce at that level of quality in a reasonable period of time.

And it's not just the "filthy console gaming peasants" who demand all these flashy visuals. I doubt PC gamers would be buying $1500-2000 gaming rigs if they didn't care about graphics, while console gamers are running $200-400 pieces of hardware.

I love complex games, and that's a great benefit of the PC as a platform, but it's also a great platform for really superb visuals. I spent a lot of money on my machine, so yeah I expect developers to take advantage of it. And so do a lot of other PC gamers.

But that doesn't come for free.

Screw graphics! I've played text based rpg's that are more memorable and deep than alot of modern games!

hem dazon 90
27th Sep 2010, 20:48
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7218/icepick.jpg

:thumb:

That was you :eek:

Kodaemon
27th Sep 2010, 20:49
Hmm?

hem dazon 90
27th Sep 2010, 20:51
Hmm?

the dude who dd the LP

Kodaemon
27th Sep 2010, 20:54
Uhh, no, what made you think that?

SageSavage
27th Sep 2010, 21:33
in response to Shralla, hem dazon 90 and and anybody else who reads this thread (especially Shralla, though):
http://www.dreadcentral.com/img/news/may08/enterthevoidbig.jpg

hem dazon 90
27th Sep 2010, 21:38
Uhh, no, what made you think that?

the same dude did pathologic too i think

FrankCSIS
27th Sep 2010, 21:40
Must the video game industry melt into a cesspool of casual before we see true advancement of the video game art again?

No, it must wait until I acquire a fortune large enough to sink millions into my evolutionary game story-playing projects.

Yessssssssssssssssss

Kodaemon
27th Sep 2010, 21:42
the same dude did pathologic too i think

Not surprising, both games are developed by Ice-Pick Lodge, and if you liked one, you'll probably try the other too.

IOOI
27th Sep 2010, 22:18
*snip*

Ok. Thanks for your answer. :)

Rindill the Red
27th Sep 2010, 22:54
Edited my post.

Romeo
27th Sep 2010, 22:56
While I encourage this debate (And have partaken in it in the past) please continue it in the thread already open regarding the industry (And it's utter heartlessness).

LOCKDOWN.