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AlexOfSpades
19th Sep 2010, 20:53
Hi~

After playing the first Deus Ex countless times, i must admit that there was one little thing that disappointed me slightly: The relative simplicity of a little certain weapon.

Of course there were many hi-tech creative gear (Like the mini-xbow, the disposable plasma pistol, the GEP..), but the Sniper was very... simple and plain. Although it did its job (and did it well), i felt it was too simple for the Sniper from a distant future.

I understand that the game is old (They wouldnt know about modern weapon tech ten years ago) and the engine had its limitations, too. But Human Revolution has the chance to change this.

The Sniper Rifle from Deus Ex:
http://images.quebarato.com.br/T440x/deus+ex+goty__1341D7_4.jpg

It had 30.06 ammunition (Which has been used in real wars since Vietnam war), which feels a little bit.. too "average" (Or did i had high expectations for it?)

The scope is adjustable, but it also has nothing special.

Now, the concept art for the Human Revolution Sniper:

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6907/003ddcbe7.jpg



It may look refined (specially with that side reloading system), but is it truly the long range weapon of the future?

Let's take a look on real life super snipers.


This is the Barrett M50 .50 Caliber:

http://www.emotionchassepeche.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/voyage-exotique-au-pays-de-la-liberte-barrett_m82a1_50bmg.jpg

Altough its not hi-tech, the main feature of this rifle is the huge caliber and high power of it, being able to be used against vehicles (instead of infantry). The huge .50 bullet goes at almost 900 m/s, which is almost three times the speed of sound, resulting in a devastating blow to the target.

I actually saw some pictures of a soldier who got shot with this beauty and.. well, i wont even describe what happened.

The drawback of the Barrett M50 is the price of the gun and the ammo (The rifle costs around 9000 dollars) and the weight of it (14kg). In the Human Revolution age, we may see a rifle crafted in carbon fibers or some plastic alloy, with smaller ammunition to keep it lightweight, but with equal firepower - perhaps using magnetism to fire the bullets?


Another hi tech rifle is the Steyr IWS 2000.

http://www.steyr-aug.com/theacr.jpg

This nice little thing weights even more than the Barrett (18kg!!), but its able to do unmatched damage.

It uses a special APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) ammunition that is capable to pierce BOTH walls of an APC armor vehicle... at 1km of distance!

The ammo:

http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/705/APFSDS.jpg






Obviously this is also a anti-material rifle and not a anti-infantry rifle (again), but we can imagine how powerful it is.
If in our modern wars we're using such equipment, what kind of technology the rifle from the future would have?

pringlepower
19th Sep 2010, 20:58
Well since Adam's got huge mechanical arms, we could go the Mass Effect route and give him a huge sniper rifle used mainly against tanks and dinosaurs, with a recoil that would snap regular human bones.

Tecman
19th Sep 2010, 21:19
Well since Adam's got huge mechanical arms, we could go the Mass Effect route and give him a huge sniper rifle used mainly against tanks and dinosaurs, with a recoil that would snap regular human bones.
Steiner-Bisley 114mm 'Eradicator' Sniper Rifle, APFSDS rounds.

Requirements:

A Phat Wallet (acquiring Money for said Wallet may or may not have been Legal) OR Maximum Persuasion ("Dude, you're actually a hippy, let me have the big gun." "Oh, okay, here.") OR You Happen To Find One On Top Of A Crate.
Arm Strength Augmentation (Kinetic-dampening Reinforcement LVL 4, Superior Motorics Modules LVL 3, Robotic Bling LVL 1, in Cyan)
Neuro-link Occular Targeting Implant OR Point The Gun In The Right Direction At The Right Time and Squeeze
Balls of Steel Augmentation

Bushmonster
19th Sep 2010, 21:22
pfffft thats nothing, i carry the top half of an m1 abrams with me for self defense

AlexOfSpades
19th Sep 2010, 21:48
Steiner-Bisley 114mm 'Eradicator' Sniper Rifle, APFSDS rounds.

Requirements:

A Phat Wallet (acquiring Money for said Wallet may or may not have been Legal) OR Maximum Persuasion ("Dude, you're actually a hippy, let me have the big gun." "Oh, okay, here.") OR You Happen To Find One On Top Of A Crate.
Arm Strength Augmentation (Kinetic-dampening Reinforcement LVL 4, Superior Motorics Modules LVL 3, Robotic Bling LVL 1, in Cyan)
Neuro-link Occular Targeting Implant OR Point The Gun In The Right Direction At The Right Time and Squeeze
Balls of Steel Augmentation


Perfect!

Blade_hunter
19th Sep 2010, 23:44
Steiner Bisely 11 mm Stalking Precision Weapon
SB SPW-11

Ammunition 11 mm caseless armor piercing rounds


Advanced hydro-pneumatic anti-recoil system
Recoil operated
Environmental correction system (computer that adjust the sights and scope towards the wind and range)
New lightweight ultrasonic 11 mm caseless round, 2 386 m/s (around Mach 7)


As for having nothing special, 98% of the sniper rifles in games have nothing special even when a game is futuristic.
Actually that's much more when the game features some realism, that the sniper becomes special, because of the simulated inconvenients.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
20th Sep 2010, 00:14
As for having nothing special, 98% of the sniper rifles in games have nothing special even when a game is futuristic.
Actually that's much more when the game features some realism, that the sniper becomes special, because of the simulated inconvenients.

The GITS story contains section9 sniper Saito and his ability to satellite-sync with the targetsystem, wonder how that would look like implemented in the gameplay?

http://www.motivegrounds.com/images/saitou.jpg

http://quizilla.teennick.com/user_images/Y/yuukinosasayaki/1111471653_saito-action.jpg

AlexOfSpades
20th Sep 2010, 00:27
The GITS story contains section9 sniper Saito and his ability to satellite-sync with the targetsystem, wonder how that would look like implemented in the gameplay?




And that's something the cyber Gunther Hermann is able to do, in Deus Ex 1!

Remember when you're in Paris?

He says something about having some kind of sattelite vision o.O

(Actually he can even see your heartbeats from the sattelite. According to him, he has even x-ray on it... now that's utopian)

Well the Ion Painter in Unreal Tournament 2004 only fires when the target area has contact to the sky. Using a similar coding, the developers could make a sattelite vision with it, allowed only when the target area has contact with the sky. Then the camera is moved to some area above the target (with some nice effects, numbers and mysterious stuff and so on) for you to analyze the target.

That, attached to a sniper, would be insane o.O

El_Bel
20th Sep 2010, 00:28
The simplest rifles win the war. Period. Exclamation point.

30.06 has a good reason for being used since Nam. They are damn good. They kill man. They are easy to mass produce. They are kind of cheap.

Also lower weight with bigger bullets means a hell of a lot of kick.

I loved Deus Ex because it was grounded. It felt like it was happening in our age, not in Star Wars.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 00:36
All I ever ask of a sniper rifle is that it is an accurate long-range weapon. I don't need it to use large caliber rounds, cause even a tiny piece of metal is going to kill when it's a head-shot. I also want it to be silent, and the smaller caliber weapons are easier to suppress.

rubiomhs
20th Sep 2010, 00:47
practicality vs. "omg lets make everything shoot missiles"

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 00:49
practicality vs. "omg lets make everything shoot missiles"

Exactly. That's what the Crossbow is for. :D

handgriffsorgfaeltig
20th Sep 2010, 00:54
@AlexOfSpades thx for the reminder ^^. and yeah, implementation wouldn't be a problem that way.

on the other hand, i am fully aware of the change in the gameplay - is it the real thing to make it any easier?
I liked the first unpatched version of Battlefield 1942, had to led almost 4 ft on target to got a clearshot (after the patch anybody could use the sniperrifle )

AlexOfSpades
20th Sep 2010, 00:54
Exactly. That's what the Crossbow is for. :D


I never even got to use those Flare darts. Really.

But hey that's a good idea.

A silencer to the Sniper would make it twice as useful to any sneaky agent.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 01:03
A silencer to the Sniper would make it twice as useful to any sneaky agent.

My suppressed Sniper in Deus Ex made me a living god! :cool:

Blade_hunter
20th Sep 2010, 01:04
The DX 3 sniper have already a silencer upgrade

pringlepower
20th Sep 2010, 01:12
My suppressed Sniper in Deus Ex made me a living god! :cool:

Suppressed sniper is pretty much a game-killer in DX and IW. Hopefully with better AI this won't be the case in DXHR.

And hopefully the shotgun will be remotely useful.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 01:13
The DX 3 sniper have already a silencer upgrade

I expected as much, but how do you know this? Info please. :)

Blade_hunter
20th Sep 2010, 01:21
The concept art, I don't think it will be something else than a stylized silencer displayed here, also I don't think they removed this possibility.
They even said that most of their weapons supports the stealth (so some of them through upgrades)
Except if you want to read a text with Adam adds a silencer into his sniper rifle ... which I don't have

TrickyVein
20th Sep 2010, 02:50
All I know is that "I like to pick 'em off from a distance" in whatever game I play given the choice.

I cannot describe the epic feeling you get when you take someone out with a single shot without HUD crosshairs from like, a gazillion miles away. So good.

*gathers her victory-sniper rifle from her Megaton house and waits outside the anchorage war-memorial for raiders to show up at grandma Sparkle's shack from across the Potomac*

sonicsidewinder
20th Sep 2010, 03:29
I cannot describe the epic feeling you get when you take someone out with a single shot without HUD crosshairs from like, a gazillion miles away. So good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWOI1AkOQLE ;)

xaduha
20th Sep 2010, 05:16
Suppressed sniper is pretty much a game-killer in DX and IW.

There's not enough 30.06 ammo for it in DX. Scoped, maxed out pistol on the other hand...

IdiotInAJeep
20th Sep 2010, 05:18
Hi~

It had 30.06 ammunition (Which has been used in real wars since Vietnam war), which feels a little bit.. too "average" (Or did i had high expectations for it?)



The 30-06 round is extremely powerful and is more than enough to kill a man, even with a helmet or bulletproof vest. It was introduced in 1906 but is still a firm favourite of hunters and sport shooters globally. There's no reason to assume it would fall out of favour in the 2050's, let alone the 2020's. It would actually make more sense for the sniper rifle in deus ex to use the NATO standard 7.62x51 M2 round but I assume sometime in the plot NATO changed standards and re-adopted the 30-06.

Theres my little rant.:whistle:

pringlepower
20th Sep 2010, 05:58
There's not enough 30.06 ammo for it in DX. Scoped, maxed out pistol on the other hand...

Fine. Suppressed sniper and accurate/recoilless/suppressed assault rifle. That's all you need.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 06:04
Fine. Suppressed sniper and accurate/recoilless/suppressed assault rifle. That's all you need.

I always like to keep the GEP gun on hand for special occasions. :)

pringlepower
20th Sep 2010, 06:12
I always like to keep the GEP gun on hand for special occasions. :)

The GEP gun takedown is best way to eliminate Manderley.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 06:18
The GEP gun takedown is best way to eliminate Manderley.

It was also the only way I could survive Simons outside the Ocean Labs. Whatever the f**k he wielded, he killed me on one shot, and if I allowed the conversation cutscene to kick in, there was no chance of winning; I died before I could even raise my weapon. So, instead, I come out of the Ocean Labs, see his pasty face standing off to the side, equip the GEP, and fire. :)

Done and done.

Senka
20th Sep 2010, 06:24
As soon as the convo ends, zyme! I've tried to kill him with the electrical tracks too, no luck though.

pringlepower
20th Sep 2010, 06:30
It was also the only way I could survive Simons outside the Ocean Labs. Whatever the f**k he wielded, he killed me on one shot, and if I allowed the conversation cutscene to kick in, there was no chance of winning; I died before I could even raise my weapon. So, instead, I come out of the Ocean Labs, see his pasty face standing off to the side, equip the GEP, and fire. :)

Done and done.

I just unloaded a full magazine of assault rifle, followed by an HE grenade, while moving backwards, forwards, and jumping. The fool.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 06:50
I just unloaded a full magazine of assault rifle, followed by an HE grenade, while moving backwards, forwards, and jumping. The fool.

The important question... do you do this before, or after we talk with him? :)

xaduha
20th Sep 2010, 06:50
By the way, it's possible to disable his arm(s) and leave him alone :)

avenging_teabag
20th Sep 2010, 07:17
All I know is that "I like to pick 'em off from a distance" in whatever game I play given the choice.

I cannot describe the epic feeling you get when you take someone out with a single shot without HUD crosshairs from like, a gazillion miles away. So good.

Oh yeah. I know what you mean. In one of my DX playthroughs, I took out 4 or 5 MJ12 commandos from that Parisian roof when Jock first dropped me there, with none of them being the wiser. Undescribable.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 07:21
Oh yeah. I know what you mean. In one of my DX playthroughs, I took out 4 or 5 MJ12 commandos from that Parisian roof when Jock first dropped me there, with none of them being the wiser. Undescribable.

Oh yes. That's always enjoyable. You pop out of the sewers and there's nobody left to hassle you... ya killed them fifteen minutes earlier. :D

avenging_teabag
20th Sep 2010, 07:21
There's not enough 30.06 ammo for it in DX. Scoped, maxed out pistol on the other hand...
[sniper rifle afficionado] 30.06 is tight, but if you pick your spot and are patient enough, and don't waste it, you'll never want for it.[/sniper rifle afficionado]

bukkit
20th Sep 2010, 09:43
largest rifle :
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7ft2j6J4NcY/0.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ft2j6J4NcY&feature=player_embedded

longest confirmed sniper kill :
http://www.mcmillanusa.com/images/rifles/tac50-package.jpg
the target was engaged from the distance of 2,430 meters (1,51 miles)
accomplished with the McMillan .50


so in 2027 you'll be hardly safe even 10 miles from the scope of a future-sniper rifle :)

Irate_Iguana
20th Sep 2010, 09:59
longest confirmed sniper kill :

the target was engaged from the distance of 2,430 meters (1,51 miles)
accomplished with the McMillan .50

Longest range confirmed kill was made by a British sniper using a L115A3 Long Range Rifle. He shot two insurgents while they were 3,200ft beyond the effective range of his rifle. This shows exactly what makes a sniper great. Not the equipment he carries, but the training and understanding of his weapon.

Gaunt88
20th Sep 2010, 10:03
The DX sniper rifle actually fits quite well, I thought. Simple and (probably) cheap with tried and tested ammo. Perfect for A) an anti-terrorist unit on a tight budget, B) a terrorist organisation on an even tighter budget, c) a conspiracy with tight-pursed masters and/or a need to keep their equipment low-key.

lithos
20th Sep 2010, 10:26
After playing the first Deus Ex countless times, i must admit that there was one little thing that disappointed me slightly: The relative simplicity of a little certain weapon.

Simplicity? You could take out cameras, turrets, doors and lockers with. Even bots if you were desperate.


Of course there were many hi-tech creative gear (Like the mini-xbow, the disposable plasma pistol, the GEP..), but the Sniper was very... simple and plain. Although it did its job (and did it well), i felt it was too simple for the Sniper from a distant future.

Fifty-four years is distant? In firearms tech? The M-16 was design in 1957. The M-14's lineage goes back even further. The Browning M2 was designed in 1918.

The Plasma pistol was disposable - probably more of a novelty weapon some enterprising arms dealer was selling to the gullible who just liked new weapons. The GEP was a guided rocket launcher - the same tech which has existed since the 1960s. The Plasma rifle was experimental.


I understand that the game is old (They wouldnt know about modern weapon tech ten years ago) and the engine had its limitations, too. But Human Revolution has the chance to change this.

Ten years, as I've established, isn't a long time in weapons design. It would probably take that long for a rifle to be approved for use by the military or law enforcement. Every army still uses brass (or other metal,) cartridges in rifles that work using mechanisms that are over a hundred years old. Bullets are still mostly lead, and what's used to propel is still chemical energy.

No military, paramilitary, law enforcement or security force is going to choose a weapon based solely on novelty.


The Sniper Rifle from Deus Ex:
It had 30.06 ammunition (Which has been used in real wars since Vietnam war)

Try "in use since World War I." Springfield 03 was .30-06, as was the M1 Garand. By the Vietnam War it was mostly replaced with its descendant, the 7.62x51mm NATO round. The Russians hold the record for having the oldest cartridge in their military's infantry - the 7.62x54mmR, which was first made in 1891. It's nearly a hundred and twenty years old.

If it ain't broke...


The scope is adjustable, but it also has nothing special.

It puts a powerful round downrange accurately, as Pinky says. That's what a sniper rifle does. That's all it's meant to do.


This is the Barrett M50 .50 Caliber:

...which fires a round that's as old as - because it was made for - the M2 machine gun (and, interestingly enough, illegal under the laws of war to use on humans - which is one of the many reasons no one declares war anymore; there's too many strings attached.)


Altough its not hi-tech, the main feature of this rifle is the huge caliber and high power of it, being able to be used against vehicles (instead of infantry). The huge .50 bullet goes at almost 900 m/s, which is almost three times the speed of sound, resulting in a devastating blow to the target.

It's not just the speed, it's the weight that also affects terminal ballistics, as well as the ability to transfer that kinetic energy from the combined speed and weight to the target, although with advent of more and more advanced body armour, amour piercing capability (through speed, and concentration of energy into a fine point via a hardened projectile with a small cross-section,) have become more of a concern. Hence why a lot of modern military ammunition is steel-cored.

But in the .50 cal's case, against humans, armoured or no - it's sheer brute force that ruins the target's day. Things like Raufoss rounds help, though.


The drawback of the Barrett M50 is the price of the gun and the ammo (The rifle costs around 9000 dollars) and the weight of it (14kg). In the Human Revolution age, we may see a rifle crafted in carbon fibers or some plastic alloy, with smaller ammunition to keep it lightweight, but with equal firepower - perhaps using magnetism to fire the bullets?

Weight's not a drawback in the Barrett's case. It's a very, very real necessity. The lighter a rifle or firearm is, the less recoil it'll absorb - and that means more recoil the shooter's body will have to absorb. The stock of the Barrett contains a hydraulic buffer, for good reason.

The anti-tank rifles (which were quickly superseded in WWII by rockets, for many practical reasons,) of the early twentieth century were normally meant to be fired only from a prone position (there's a charming Disney-made training film for the British Boys rifle on Youtube, if anyone's interested.) Because they kicked like a mule that had gotten into Lance Armstrong's "vitamins."

And the US navy's been working on magnetically-launched projectiles. Why the US navy? Because you'd need a damn nuclear reactor to power the sucker. You're not gonna get a battery or capacitor effective enough for decades, if not centuries, to power a man-portable coilgun that could do any form of practical damage. We can barely build a decent electric car. Maybe Duracell's conquered zero-point energy in seventeen years time, I dunno, but that's more FM than AM, to use a science-fiction term.


Another hi tech rifle is the Steyr IWS 2000.

How can you consider the IWS "hi-tech" by your own standards when it was designed in the 1980s? And it still hasn't been adopted by any military agency, due to cost and practicality concerns, mostly likely.


This nice little thing weights even more than the Barrett (18kg!!), but its able to do unmatched damage.

Unless you're matching it with an portable missile launcher, like the LAW or RPG, which are cheaper, simpler to use, lighter, and less bulky.


It uses a special APFSDS (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot) ammunition that is capable to pierce BOTH walls of an APC armor vehicle... at 1km of distance!

Again, a reason why the armed forces of the world haven't really bothered with man-portable flechette-type sabot rounds. What's the point of a round that can punch clean through vehicle? Unless the fuel tanks are in the walls (not uncommon,) or there's some poor guy in the path, it amounts to the sort of damage that might only be a problem if there's going to be an biological or chemical attack to follow. There's still a chance it would hit something vital in the tightly-packed innards of a military vehicle, but the IWS is an expensive proposition for something that would only result in a mobility, mission, or firepower kill.

Rounds like that work better if they bounce around inside and shred whoever and whatever's in there, or by spalling.

And reactive armour will probably just destroy the round. Even slat armour would probably defeat it if it hit one of the slats.

For antipersonnel weapons, it's a different story. There's a much reduced need for sheer penetration; we're pretty delicate creatures. It doesn't take much to ruin our day. While getting shot with a flechette round wouldn't tickle, it's a grossly inefficient. One, they don't do much damage compared to a slower, heavier (and cheaper and simpler,) round. And two, light ammunition tends to get deflected by the slightest obstacle - twigs, vines, street signs. They might penetrate, but the chances are they won't keep going where intended (and in cities and other civilian-laden places, the Hague takes a very dim view of that.)


The ammo:

That's not a rifle round. That's M1A1 Abrams M829 round. Tanks and artillery are where finned penetrators like that become practical, because they've got both enough energy to penetrate armour, and enough weight to do some decent damage.


Obviously this is also a anti-material rifle and not a anti-infantry rifle (again), but we can imagine how powerful it is.

Most of it's power wasted on human targets.


If in our modern wars we're using such equipment, what kind of technology the rifle from the future would have?

In seventeen years' time? The US will still be using an M-16 derivative as its general-issue battle rifle.

Ask any soldier or policeman if they'd give up their weapon for some bleeding-edge brand-spanking new piece of slaughtering technology, and they'd probably tell you "Jeez, I have to get qualified on what, again?" Diggers and British soldiers hated the retirement of the L1A1 for the less powerful Tupperware guns and SA-80s. Automatic pistols were around for about eighty years before the majority of police forces started using them. Then again, all those poor coppers who've shot themselves in the foot holstering Glocks mightn't think it's such a big step forward.

It's not about how new something is, it's how well it works, how it can be relied upon, and how it much it costs the taxpayers (or shareholders.) The phrase "OMG kewl" doesn't tend to find its way into weapons acquisitions requirements lists.

And, again, all this is, as El Bel said, what we loved about DX. How grounded in reality it was, which made the game that much better. I don't want a bloody game where everything is explained by "quantum." That's not science fiction. It's fantasy. Or if someone was just put in there because "OMG it's awesome!" Lord knows there's enough of that in there.

The well-thought out science fiction and conspiracy ideas, tempered with an utterly realistic and believable world were what made DX great.

Not "style" over substance.

El_Bel
20th Sep 2010, 11:46
Diggers and British soldiers hated the retirement of the L1A1 for the less powerful Tupperware guns and SA-80s.

And in the Greek military we are replacing the awesome G3A3 battle rifle with the powerful 7.62x51mm NATO round with the girly G36 assault rifle with the 5.56x45mm NATO fart round. Anyone knows why the world moves to smaller caliber rounds? What the hell?

Hammich
20th Sep 2010, 12:31
if you want fancy tech, that's what the weapon upgrade and modification system is for. For example, I have doubts the crossbow will come vanilla with that high-tech trajectory-correction scope

Hammich
20th Sep 2010, 12:33
And in the Greek military we are replacing the awesome G3A3 battle rifle with the powerful 7.62x51mm NATO round with the girly G36 assault rifle with the 5.56x45mm NATO fart round. Anyone knows why the world moves to smaller caliber rounds? What the hell?

Weight constraints are an issue in deploying soldiers in the field for days at a time. Simple answer? It's lighter.

lithos
20th Sep 2010, 12:57
And in the Greek military we are replacing the awesome G3A3 battle rifle with the powerful 7.62x51mm NATO round with the girly G36 assault rifle with the 5.56x45mm NATO fart round. Anyone knows why the world moves to smaller caliber rounds? What the hell?

Basically, the US had a shedload of 5.56mm stockpiled after Vietnam by the time the NATO STANAG was signed in the seventies. They weren't willing to change, and no one wanted to argue with the US military-industrial complex - although the final version that was adopted was a Belgian tweaking of the original 5.56mm.

El_Bel
20th Sep 2010, 13:09
Weight constraints are an issue in deploying soldiers in the field for days at a time. Simple answer? It's lighter.

I would rather carry the extra weight and get tired after a long march, but know that when i put a bullet on my target he stays down and get an extra 300 meters of range against my enemy (all our neighbors and the US are using 5.56).

AlexOfSpades
20th Sep 2010, 15:01
I would rather carry the extra weight and get tired after a long march, but know that when i put a bullet on my target he stays down and get an extra 300 meters of range against my enemy (all our neighbors and the US are using 5.56).

Indeed!

But Lithos, nice ballistics lesson you gave me. But there's one little thing i disagree, about the two decades of distance between reality and DXHR age, weapons may change. A lot.

Simply judging by the modern soldier and comparing it to Mr. Carbonfiber Arms Adam Jensen throwing mini-bombs from his body (Just like in the Trailer) or that super eye, i guess that its not surreal to expect more tech weaponry.

Making retractrable blades being activated by neural transmissions, connecting the machine to an organism ; That must be way more hard to do than making a magnetic-rail-propelled ammo for a Sniper.

TrickyVein, i never managed to get the Victory Rifle. Damn super hard lockpick.

And at the Walton Simons thing, well, believe it or not, after the conversation i just turned invisible, turned on the defenses (ballistic and so on), turned on the super speed and charged against Walton, jumping at extreme height and landing over his head with my dragon tooth. Then hacked him. He was down before he could fire that damn plasma thing.

El_Bel
20th Sep 2010, 15:15
Making retractrable blades being activated by neural transmissions, connecting the machine to an organism ; That must be way more hard to do than making a magnetic-rail-propelled ammo for a Sniper.


Nope, you can build these things today, although they would be quite expensive. Magrails are science fiction and they will be for years to come, until we discover how to make a nuclear reactor portable. Besides, they would be damn expensive, you would not find ammo, and they are overkill to take down a single target. 30.06 is more then enough.

lithos
20th Sep 2010, 17:34
But Lithos, nice ballistics lesson you gave me. But there's one little thing i disagree, about the two decades of distance between reality and DXHR age, weapons may change. A lot.

How? Why? History would not bear that out. Hell, zee crafty Germans had a working caseless rifle in the 1970s. No one took them up on it.

Absolutely, people we'll always becoming with new and novel firearms (because f*** me if the military doesn't pay well.) Whether or not they get adopted by anyone is another matter. Most either sink without a trace, as with every has-been firearm, get sold to civilian nutters in the US.


Simply judging by the modern soldier and comparing it to Mr. Carbonfiber Arms Adam Jensen throwing mini-bombs from his body (Just like in the Trailer) or that super eye, i guess that its not surreal to expect more tech weaponry.

Yeah, and having that in seventeen years' time is a pretty...I'll say audacious, to prevent the DudeBros of the forum from calling me "elitist", move. Most of that's decent science fiction writing however - looking at the practices and theories of the present, and extrapolating them to the future.


Making retractrable blades being activated by neural transmissions, connecting the machine to an organism ; That must be way more hard to do than making a magnetic-rail-propelled ammo for a Sniper.

You don't have an idea of how hard it would be to make bionic limbs yet you're still willing to use that as a basis for how easy it would be to make a coilgun?

Every heard of a cochlear implant? Pacemaker? EEG? Prosthetic limb? Present-day tech.

You're right though, it probably is pretty damn easy to make magrail ammo. Iron slug, or something.

Making it man-portable? Easily done.

Making it fire? You'd better pray for zero-point energy, or start buying shares in Energiser.

spm1138
20th Sep 2010, 17:43
Lithos is my favourite new poster.

Lithos, what do you think about flywheel storage for coil/railguns? I was reading somewhere they're super efficient at dumping a lot of energy really quickly.

As for the OP,
Ultimately it's a videogame so the sniper rifle should fit into the gameplay in a fun and challenging way.

Obviously there's certain expectations anyone who has played a modern shooter will have for how it should work.

I just hope they make it good and deadly even for centre-mass shots because I am crap at doing headshots on a thumbstick.

edit
\/\/\/
Shotgun was awesome. Minced robot and mook alike. I think I killed Simmons with mines.

_.Frylock._
20th Sep 2010, 18:03
whoever implied that the shotguns in dx weren't useful never saw me play. i like the sawed off, you get so much buckshot ammo, even using the hell out of it, you still have to pass up tons of boxes of buckshot because there is simply so much laying around. great for close up kills. especially if you wanna be ninja assassin about it, since shotgun blasts can't be traced (as far as i know). oh and walton simons, HA! all i did was let the door open, get my aim on him, and hit him with a couple HE rounds from the assault rifle. done and done, with no damage taken

lithos
20th Sep 2010, 18:12
Lithos is my favourite new poster.

Lithos, what do you think about flywheel storage for coil/railguns? I was reading somewhere they're super efficient at dumping a lot of energy really quickly.

I'm not a dabbler in the fine art of [url=www.coilgun.info]coilgunsmithing[/quote]. Hell, I haven't even wound the chokes for those speakers I'm meant to be building yet. Just more in basic physics, logic and common sense.

I'd imagine a bank of caps would be a lot easier to handle than a flywheel. Probably a lot more efficient, too.

rubiomhs
20th Sep 2010, 19:20
largest rifle :
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7ft2j6J4NcY/0.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ft2j6J4NcY&feature=player_embedded

longest confirmed sniper kill :
http://www.mcmillanusa.com/images/rifles/tac50-package.jpg
the target was engaged from the distance of 2,430 meters (1,51 miles)
accomplished with the McMillan .50


so in 2027 you'll be hardly safe even 10 miles from the scope of a future-sniper rifle :)

sure, if they adopt anti friction and gravity bullets. oh and i'm sure the kickback from such a weapon won't shatter your shoulder or anything.

how did you go from 1.5 miles to 10 miles?

JCpies
20th Sep 2010, 19:44
The GEP gun takedown is best way to eliminate Manderley.

I prefer to leave as if you think he's letting you go, then quickly turn around and kill him with a shot of the pistol to the face, like James Bond.

JCpies
20th Sep 2010, 19:54
After reading some of Lithos' uber long post, I can tell that... You like guns.

Blade_hunter
20th Sep 2010, 22:19
Lithos is my favourite new poster.

Lithos, what do you think about flywheel storage for coil/railguns? I was reading somewhere they're super efficient at dumping a lot of energy really quickly.

As for the OP,
Ultimately it's a videogame so the sniper rifle should fit into the gameplay in a fun and challenging way.

Obviously there's certain expectations anyone who has played a modern shooter will have for how it should work.

I just hope they make it good and deadly even for centre-mass shots because I am crap at doing headshots on a thumbstick.

edit
\/\/\/
Shotgun was awesome. Minced robot and mook alike. I think I killed Simmons with mines.

Add realistic ballistics on it, this would be sufficient to make it challenging, even with a stable aim you should be near your target if you want to avoid to anticipate the projectile's trajectory.

AlexOfSpades
20th Sep 2010, 22:31
I prefer to leave as if you think he's letting you go, then quickly turn around and kill him with a shot of the pistol to the face, like James Bond.

Exactly how i did it, damn!


But he was quoting a moment from the Malkavian Mod. I think Paul says that, in the mod. Its nuts.

Everytime Lithos posts something in this thread, i learn something new. Anyways, ever played Red Faction?

The Sniper from the game can pierce walls (Which we can achieve in modern weaponry), but the scope of it also has heat sensors. It makes it twice as useful.

Since we're in the mood of piercing walls with our fists to grab the guards, it could be plausible to have some kind of tech like that in a gun ; Specially because JC Denton himself had that kind of vision (And i suppose Adam Jensen too, although he's more obsolete).

Maybe we could have that as a weapon mod, as the supressor and so on.


Or that would make the Sniper way more overpowered?

El_Bel
20th Sep 2010, 22:46
Yes, i would like all weapons to pierce walls. Every weapon with an 7.62 bullet or higher (maybe a bit smaller too) can pierce a normal wall. It could make the see through walls aug more awesome and it would add another tool to our bag of tricks.

Imagine somehow drawing everyone from the other side of the wall close to the wall, maybe with a bit of noise, and then open fire!

Mindmute
20th Sep 2010, 22:49
Yes, i would like all weapons to pierce walls. Every weapon with an 7.62 bullet or higher (maybe a bit smaller too) can pierce a normal wall. It could make the see through walls aug more awesome and it would add another tool to our bag of tricks.

Imagine somehow drawing everyone from the other side of the wall close to the wall, maybe with a bit of noise, and then open fire!

At the very least I'd like to see ammo go through wooden doors and onto the other side. It bugs me how some shooting-oriented games still seem to portray doors as awsomely barricaded and unphasable objects.

Blade_hunter
20th Sep 2010, 23:08
For me it might depend of the material, if the material is like wood, then certain bullets can go through, if it's concrete, then the caliber should be high and with armor piercing capabilities, but if the wall is too thick then the bullet shouldn't go through, also the damage might be reduced second the material where the bullet is passing through.
In my opinion we can go for it, but the ballistics might be well managed, because if the bullet is an hollow point ammo it shouldn't go through, an FMJ round in an other hand can pierce something, depending on the bullet and the material that the bullet have to pierce ...

AlexOfSpades
20th Sep 2010, 23:13
And i guess that's not something hard to do, since even Counter Strike had it.

El_Bel
20th Sep 2010, 23:45
Its not a matter of hard to do or easy. Its if they want to hear us.I guess we could try telling Coyote to try talk about the idea to the lead designer, but we have to make a very good case, with relative few words and it must be simple.

I think it should be implemented because it would add another use for the see through walls augmentation, another strategy that would give the advantage to you because you are augmented (hiding in the closet and wait for the foe to pass outside the door and shoot him with a silenced pistol. God damn that would be awesome).

You guys find more reasons! EM please think about it!

pringlepower
20th Sep 2010, 23:48
Its not a matter of hard to do or easy. Its if they want to hear us.I guess we could try telling Coyote to try talk about the idea to the lead designer, but we have to make a very good case, with relative few words and it must be simple.

I think it should be implemented because it would add another use for the see through walls augmentation, another strategy that would give the advantage to you because you are augmented (hiding in the closet and wait for the foe to pass outside the door and shoot him with a silenced pistol. God damn that would be awesome).

You guys find more reasons! EM please think about it!

Or, you know we could accept that the game comes out in 5 months and it's a bit late for that.

Mindmute
20th Sep 2010, 23:51
Or, you know we could accept that the game comes out in 5 months and it's a bit late for that.

"No, within six months."

Sorry, had to.

pringlepower
20th Sep 2010, 23:57
"No, within six months."

Sorry, had to.

At least you're having fun with it.

lithos
21st Sep 2010, 10:41
After reading some of Lithos' uber long post, I can tell that... You like guns.

No. I'm an Aussie. I don't care about them one way or another. I wouldn't have referred to the Barrett as a "beauty" in regards to its lethality. It's just something to know.

It's more of an interest in history, what can be implied from it, and realism and grounding (wonderful term, El Bel,) in narratives like Deus Ex.

Xenoc
21st Sep 2010, 11:14
largest rifle :
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7ft2j6J4NcY/0.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ft2j6J4NcY&feature=player_embedded

longest confirmed sniper kill :
http://www.mcmillanusa.com/images/rifles/tac50-package.jpg
the target was engaged from the distance of 2,430 meters (1,51 miles)
accomplished with the McMillan .50


so in 2027 you'll be hardly safe even 10 miles from the scope of a future-sniper rifle :)

Not necessarily, ammo today has reached its full potential and cannot be fired faster or longer distances due to the size a gun needs to be and the kinetic energy the spring can produce to fire the bullet. So governments are looking at ways to make railguns or lazer weaponry

lithos
21st Sep 2010, 11:21
I'm glad the crossbow isn't the sniper weapon.

From what I've seen so far, I don't think there will be many decent sniping areas - ie, with significant range, like Paris or Vandenburg in the original.

Irate_Iguana
21st Sep 2010, 11:25
No. I'm an Aussie.

Steve Lee is an Aussie and he likes guns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU).



Not necessarily, ammo today has reached its full potential and cannot be fired faster or longer distances due to the size a gun needs to be and the kinetic energy the spring can produce to fire the bullet. So governments are looking at ways to make railguns or lazer weaponry

Advances in bullet design, propellant and material sciences ensure that cartridges can still be made to fire faster over longer distances and hit harder. The design is really only being held back by the demands of the military. They don't have needs that would lead to a sudden jump in cartridge development.

Xenoc
21st Sep 2010, 11:38
Steve Lee is an Aussie and he likes guns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TC2xTCb_GU).




Advances in bullet design, propellant and material sciences ensure that cartridges can still be made to fire faster over longer distances and hit harder. The design is really only being held back by the demands of the military. They don't have needs that would lead to a sudden jump in cartridge development.

Bullets and the guns would need to be much larger to fire the distances some think are attainable in the near future. We are just not that advanced yet.

Irate_Iguana
21st Sep 2010, 11:50
Bullets and the guns would need to be much larger to fire the distances some think are attainable in the near future. We are just not that advanced yet.

In order to fire them 10 miles accurately from a man-portable package, I agree. That's not likely to happen in the near future. If you fire the .50 BMG at an angle you can reach a maximum distance of about 5 miles. Although you are not likely to hit whatever it is you are aiming at.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
21st Sep 2010, 12:08
Bullets and the guns would need to be much larger to fire the distances some think are attainable in the near future. We are just not that advanced yet.

workin on that (http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/26/darpa-putting-scopes-that-see-wind-turbulence-into-the-hands-o/) , almost getting the environment under control...

Xenoc
21st Sep 2010, 12:15
workin on that (http://www.engadget.com/2010/05/26/darpa-putting-scopes-that-see-wind-turbulence-into-the-hands-o/) , almost getting the environment under control...

Never going to happen in our life time, I mean there is just to many variables for the computer to compensate for. Wind speed/direction, world rotation etc. I know real snipers do this and you would expect a computer chip to be able to do it faster but tech has an uncanny way of not working when you need to kill some dictator who plays genocide in his spare time...

rubiomhs
22nd Sep 2010, 00:40
"almost getting the environment under control" is misleading. what the scope is supposed to do is really visualize certain variables, the sniper still has to do the rest.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
22nd Sep 2010, 01:40
"almost getting the environment under control" is misleading. what the scope is supposed to do is really visualize certain variables, the sniper still has to do the rest.

Oh come on ^^, i don't say it's that 'you can't control the jungle - you must become the jungle' kind of way. The boys get some gizmos so that the wind can't blow their bullets away. In my world the eviroment implies distance, wind, sun and all those damn irritating,blinding objects.

K^2
22nd Sep 2010, 16:11
They wouldnt know about modern weapon tech ten years ago
0_o

Alright. Lets pretend for a moment that there was some truth to your claim. If ten years ago they had no idea what today's weapons looked like (I can't even type this with a straight face). How are they supposed to know what guns will look like in 20 years?

And now you are claiming that you can tell what the future weapons will be like? Sure 10 years ago, 710 years since first known depiction of a gun, they had no idea what weapons of the future would be like. But now, 720 years after the above, we know! What are 7 centuries of firearm history compared to the past decade, right?

AlexOfSpades
22nd Sep 2010, 17:02
0_o

Alright. Lets pretend for a moment that there was some truth to your claim. If ten years ago they had no idea what today's weapons looked like (I can't even type this with a straight face). How are they supposed to know what guns will look like in 20 years?

And now you are claiming that you can tell what the future weapons will be like? Sure 10 years ago, 710 years since first known depiction of a gun, they had no idea what weapons of the future would be like. But now, 720 years after the above, we know! What are 7 centuries of firearm history compared to the past decade, right?

You missed the point of the thread. You made a two-paragraph post about a small unnecessary sentence.

The point is, suggest firearms innovations.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
22nd Sep 2010, 17:27
...they had no idea what weapons of the future would be like. But now... we know!... 7 centuries of firearm...


http://img.macjams.com/song_art/4365_WaterPistol.jpg
http://funcfash.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/pink-water-pistol.jpghttp://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/pe/peterkin-twin-shooter-water-pistol.jpghttp://www.otherlandtoys.co.uk/product_thumb.php?img=images/soakerdevastator350.jpg&w=350&h=170&ow=350&oh=200


suggest firearms innovations.


http://www.wists.com/thumbnails/d/4e/d4e272e0424bf67c6eabb41261f2d6bc-orig

Xenoc
22nd Sep 2010, 18:24
^^ lmao

KSingh77
22nd Sep 2010, 20:17
I need a lazar blaster to fend off space invaders.

Blade_hunter
22nd Sep 2010, 20:22
You missed the point of the thread. You made a two-paragraph post about a small unnecessary sentence.

The point is, suggest firearms innovations.

I think the fact they are using flechettes for their assault rifle is proof of technological innovation
If you want innovation, the caseless ammo would be innovative enough

pringlepower
23rd Sep 2010, 00:16
I need a lazar blaster to fend off space invaders.

Will you shoot through your own shield?

Romeo
23rd Sep 2010, 00:26
As barbaric as it sounds, I think the two biggest "innovations" I like to see in snipers (I've only fired one in my life) are more lateral stability, due to muzzle velocity (Or a scope that could figure that out. Smart-scope) and of course, larger calibre. I lack the creativity to embrace some of the more bizarre technologies that are still finding their footing. =P

lithos
23rd Sep 2010, 10:54
If you want innovation, the caseless ammo would be innovative enough

But according to the OP's criteria, it's 40 years old and therefore lame.

Although, if you want to get picky, caseless ammo was the very first ammunition, and, hell, even predates firearms...

lithos
23rd Sep 2010, 10:59
Of course, there's always Metal Storm, which is proof that if you're ever in Australia, always be nice to the guy at the supermarket checkout.

K^2
23rd Sep 2010, 12:07
You missed the point of the thread. You made a two-paragraph post about a small unnecessary sentence.
If you are sufficiently confused about firearms to say the nonsense you did say, I don't see a reason discussing anything else.

In order to talk about innovation, you need to understand what has been changed already. And if you are under the impression that there have been developments in the past decade that would dramatically change the firearms in two decades, then your talk of innovation is just an uninformed fantasy, and then there really wasn't a point for me to miss.

Blade_hunter
23rd Sep 2010, 13:03
But according to the OP's criteria, it's 40 years old and therefore lame.

Although, if you want to get picky, caseless ammo was the very first ammunition, and, hell, even predates firearms...

Come on dude, you know probably there is a recent attempt to reintroduce the caseless ammo, and this one can be successful. I know the Metal Storm, don't worry ;) they made several interesting prototypes.

As for too fantasist approach for a sniper, I have some fears, because in games snipers can be easily perfect, so at this point the sniper can have cheating options that can ruin the gameplay easily if we push the perfection in certain areas.

Pinky_Powers
23rd Sep 2010, 13:39
I don't know why more games don't incorporate gravity and distance in their firing calculations. In 1998, Delta Force was already doing this for video games. Why has it been largely forgotten since then? It should be a staple of all shooters by now.

lithos
23rd Sep 2010, 15:12
I don't know why more games don't incorporate gravity and distance in their firing calculations. In 1998, Delta Force was already doing this for video games. Why has it been largely forgotten since then? It should be a staple of all shooters by now.

Ballistics?

STALKER had a good ballistics modeling, one of my favourites. Had the range to make it worthwhile, plus the good ol' PSO-1 to give you the range, although I don't think it was accurately sized like it was in Operation Flashpoint (milsims tend to have pretty good ballistics, by their nature.

Sniper Elite had a good one (although I question the idea of a sniper game that considers an 68m shot "long range.") Sniper: Ghost Warrior has it, too.

There's two reasons why they might be going out of style. One, most shooters tend to be point-blank only. Lots enemies, run-and-gun, close combat. Keeps the adrenalin up. So there's no need for elevation or windage. I think point-blank with your average battle rifle is about 30m - and a lot of fights in games occur well within that range. So I suppose in that respect it's realistic.

Two, you really need precise control to compensate for bullet drop, which you don't get with thumbsticks. Sure, you can do it with grenade launchers, with their exaggerated trajectory and splash damage. But for MOA adjustments, you really need a mouse. If you're devving for consoles, there's no point. Plus if you're sticking auto-aim in there to compensate for the inaccuracy of the sticks, there's no point in having bullet drop if it's going to be compensated for, or you're gonna have to be fine aiming anyway.

Actually, now that you mentioned Delta Force, you know what I really miss? Firing mode selection. STALKER had it, too.

rubiomhs
23rd Sep 2010, 15:39
i'd say the principle reason is because it doesn't sell games. when the average player wants to run around killing everything in sight and set off massive hollywood explosions, the last thing they care about is this thing called ballistics.

lithos
23rd Sep 2010, 16:51
I actually miss firing mode selection more than ballistics, to be honest. Better two shots spread out over two seconds that hit than six shots sprayed around in one second with only two hitting.

AlexOfSpades
23rd Sep 2010, 16:52
I wont even reply to certain people that seem to be unable to understand that the point of the thread isnt "Alex Of Spades - Is he perfect?", but suggesting any kind of innovative weaponry (not innovative to reality, but to gaming reality).

Anyways, ahem,

I remember well that the shotgun had two ammo's in the first DX (Buckshot and something else). I cant remember precisely since i didnt used it a lot.

And also the mini-xbow had 3 types (only the tranquilizers were useful to me).

Are alternative ammunition useful? Or do they just make it more complicated?

xsamitt
23rd Sep 2010, 16:58
I don't know why more games don't incorporate gravity and distance in their firing calculations. In 1998, Delta Force was already doing this for video games. Why has it been largely forgotten since then? It should be a staple of all shooters by now.

The industry has grown up sums it up nicely.

Pinky_Powers
23rd Sep 2010, 17:22
Are alternative ammunition useful? Or do they just make it more complicated?

I can't speak for everyone, but I never once used a different ammo type for any of my weapons. Whatever was standard, I used. But I like the idea of options, and I'm sure there were folk who played around with that nonsense. :)

lithos
23rd Sep 2010, 17:33
I wont even reply to certain people that seem to be unable to understand that the point of the thread isnt "Alex Of Spades - Is he perfect?", but suggesting any kind of innovative weaponry (not innovative to reality, but to gaming reality).

Yes, but you did start this thread referring to a hard science fiction game set seventeen (17) years from now.

And the flare darts were one of the best bits from IW.

K^2
23rd Sep 2010, 18:43
I don't know why more games don't incorporate gravity and distance in their firing calculations. In 1998, Delta Force was already doing this for video games. Why has it been largely forgotten since then? It should be a staple of all shooters by now.
Well, accounting for both gravity AND wind resistance (which is what also carries bullet downwind - the way this is accounted for is actually very nifty) is a bit complicated. If you want to do it right, it involves a fair bit of computing. If you have just one person shooting, not a problem. If you have a whole bunch of NPCs and they all start firing something with a good rate, it gets a little hairy. I haven't played Delta Force, but I assume it used a simplified model for its ballistics and probably didn't have too many bullets fired at once.

Besides, when was the last time you met a game developer who understands that much ballistics? I'm sure they exist, but they are probably spread pretty thin.



P.S. Certain people may find it interesting that the DX shotgun already fired one of the rounds that certain people suggested as "innovation".

Xenoc
23rd Sep 2010, 18:54
Not really to bothered about multiple ammo types, although more variety does not hurt. However I am interested to see if the scopes will use NV/Thermal vision or some new vision mode in game?

Will we also see a return of such peripherals as the NV goggles or will they be incorporated into an augmentation or do we have to rely solely on the scopes on weapons for low light amplification?

AlexOfSpades
23rd Sep 2010, 19:18
Personally i think we should have two ways to have NV or thermal vision.

First, augs.

Then, some kind of gear.

Because then it would be unfair for those who used the Eye slot aug for something else - then they would have to play the game again just to see how the thermal vision looks like.

Mindmute
23rd Sep 2010, 19:23
Personally i think we should have two ways to have NV or thermal vision.

First, augs.

Then, some kind of gear.

Because then it would be unfair for those who used the Eye slot aug for something else - then they would have to play the game again just to see how the thermal vision looks like.

Honestly, that'd add replayability and persuade you to try different approaches on different playthroughs so it wouldn't be a bad thing. It's just like in Deus Ex, your choice of augmentation meant others were off-limits, so you couldn't experience every aug in just one go.

Xenoc
23rd Sep 2010, 19:24
Personally i think we should have two ways to have NV or thermal vision.

First, augs.

Then, some kind of gear.

Because then it would be unfair for those who used the Eye slot aug for something else - then they would have to play the game again just to see how the thermal vision looks like.

Well if the game is as good as the previewers claim then I will certainly replay the game just to use different aug's and get all the secrets.

Blade_hunter
24th Sep 2010, 00:44
I can't speak for everyone, but I never once used a different ammo type for any of my weapons. Whatever was standard, I used. But I like the idea of options, and I'm sure there were folk who played around with that nonsense. :)

I used it mostly because I often played lethally, I made some non lethal walkthroughs and in there the feature is useless because there is only one ranged non lethal weapon (minicrossbow) and robots can be killed, so GEP gun with explosives and that's it ...


The industry has grown up sums it up nicely.

Ok, that's nice :(


I don't know why more games don't incorporate gravity and distance in their firing calculations. In 1998, Delta Force was already doing this for video games. Why has it been largely forgotten since then? It should be a staple of all shooters by now.

I own Delta Force and it doesn't have it, I'm pretty sure that the guns in this game used hitscan bullets, perhaps later games have it, but not this one, if you want realistic ballistics, try ARMA 2.
But I think lithos hit the nail here, unfortunately ...
Some old games who has realistic ballistics are somewhat just half simulated, the bullet has delay, but nothing else; even if that's better than nothing ...

Pinky_Powers
24th Sep 2010, 05:13
I own Delta Force and it doesn't have it,

Maybe it's just in Multiplayer. But I swear to god it has it. I'm almost sure it's not Delta Force 2.

:scratch:

Ninjerk
24th Sep 2010, 07:32
Maybe it's just in Multiplayer. But I swear to god it has it. I'm almost sure it's not Delta Force 2.

:scratch:

From what little I remember of DF multi, all of the tracers looked like straight lines instead of the parabolic curves you might see in a bullet path diagram (I saw one in a hunting magazine at a dentist's office). Take that with a grain of salt, though, as I was probably 12 or 13 when I played DF and probably didn't know what a parabola was.

Pinky_Powers
24th Sep 2010, 10:34
Back in 2003 me and my friends got back into the original Delta Force, so my memories of this are rather fresh... compared to 1998.

DF multiplayer had some massive levels, and it was the FAR shots with the sniper that you had to have some talent with. Not only was there gravity to pull the munition down, but there was also rate-of-travel; you had to lead the target.

If you don't believe me, go play it again. It's still fun. :)

Ninjerk
25th Sep 2010, 08:39
Back in 2003 me and my friends got back into the original Delta Force, so my memories of this are rather fresh... compared to 1998.

DF multiplayer had some massive levels, and it was the FAR shots with the sniper that you had to have some talent with. Not only was there gravity to pull the munition down, but there was also rate-of-travel; you had to lead the target.

If you don't believe me, go play it again. It's still fun. :)

Ha, I'm sure I wouldn't like to relive finding a multiplayer game, but maybe the single player is still fun.

spm1138
26th Sep 2010, 20:28
Delta Force definitely has individually modelled projectiles with drop.

It didn't model wind but it definitely had a fairly sophisticated ballistics model. It was all done with voxels too!

The sound model was pretty good I seem to recall. You could find range by counting seconds between the snap and boom. Not bad for it's day at all.

It's true though it does add to CPU load individually modelling projectiles.

My favourite mod for a long time, Infiltration, did all that on UT99 and it was very heavy on server requirements and system requirements.

Also interestingly for this conversation most maps were not big enough to strictly speaking require a sniper rifle. An AR with an optic tended to be sufficient. Most FPS games really compress ranges (something to do with field of view) and in the process of modelling weapon accuracy with hitscan really make ARs inaccurate to give SRs their niche. Once you're accurately modelling this stuff you need biiiiiig maps to give SRs room to be useful.

Pinky_Powers
26th Sep 2010, 21:47
Thank you spm1138. Now I don't seem as crazy.

lithos
26th Sep 2010, 23:41
Also interestingly for this conversation most maps were not big enough to strictly speaking require a sniper rifle. An AR with an optic tended to be sufficient. Most FPS games really compress ranges (something to do with field of view) and in the process of modelling weapon accuracy with hitscan really make ARs inaccurate to give SRs their niche. Once you're accurately modelling this stuff you need biiiiiig maps to give SRs room to be useful.

Like I said...

Hammich
27th Sep 2010, 01:29
Which comes to the point: Would it be so bad if a Deus Ex game had extremely long-range outdoor combat with accurately modelled ballistics?

In a way increasing the simulation aspects of play could drastically increase the usefulness of augmentations

pringlepower
27th Sep 2010, 01:40
Which comes to the point: Would it be so bad if a Deus Ex game had extremely long-range outdoor combat with accurately modelled ballistics?

In a way increasing the simulation aspects of play could drastically increase the usefulness of augmentations

Well the crossbow bolt does seem to fall

AlexOfSpades
27th Sep 2010, 01:44
Well the crossbow bolt does seem to fall

In which game? DX or HR?

Never noticed that in the first game.

pringlepower
27th Sep 2010, 01:46
In which game? DX or HR?

Never noticed that in the first game.

HR. In the PAX demonstration the player aimed slightly above the target's head to get a headshot. Im not sure if the bow had an upgraded scope, but it indicated where to aim to get a good shot (slightly higher).

AlexOfSpades
27th Sep 2010, 02:03
Hey, that's cool. Since the Crossbow doesnt have extreme ranges, we deal with ballistics without having targets at 300 meters

Ninjerk
27th Sep 2010, 05:30
In which game? DX or HR?

Never noticed that in the first game.

Bolts definitely didn't fly forever or disappear in the first game if you missed, although I never could figure out how to shoot them outside the effective range (didn't care for the xbow anyways).

Pinky_Powers
27th Sep 2010, 09:28
(didn't care for the xbow anyways).

It was most helpful in the Ocean Labs where you were likely to be attacked whilst submerged in water.

Blade_hunter
27th Sep 2010, 10:21
In which game? DX or HR?

Never noticed that in the first game.

It does in both, in the first the crossbow have a limited range, even fully upgraded.
As for a reminder, all games who features a crossbow, the projectiles such as arrows and bolts never were hitscan, only bullets.
In DX 1 shooting outside the effective range is pretty weird, the bolts, flight pretty straight right and after it does a complete curve, the throwing knives does the same thing with a shorter range.
In any style of play I used the crossbow, and used at least the lethal bolts and non lethal bolts.
In my opinion I would prefer that suppressed weapons would have a variable degree of stealth, really I think the value of each weapons in that regard should be different.

lithos
27th Sep 2010, 10:58
One of the things I loved about DX is tranqing some poor dude, watching him run around, and then passing out riiiiight in front of the alarm panel.

AlexOfSpades
27th Sep 2010, 11:15
One of the things I loved about DX is tranqing some poor dude, watching him run around, and then passing out riiiiight in front of the alarm panel.

Specifically when you're in the MJ12 secret base, after being captured. Happened the same with me.

Heh, tranq darts = everything.

I hate when i'm at the first mission and that NSF soldier tranq's me, though. The screen gets all.. brownish and JC Denton moaning like crazy and i cant even see wtf is happening.. meanwhile the guy keeps on firing darts on me :S

Blade_hunter
27th Sep 2010, 11:53
One of the things I loved about DX is tranqing some poor dude, watching him run around, and then passing out riiiiight in front of the alarm panel.

Too much fun with it.
I just want to come back with delta force, I never thought it has it because I often killed my targets around 300 m and rarely in the 600 meters, in this game the delay is practically unnoticeable at these ranges, I know some other games who used ballistics trajectory, like Max Payne, Tactical Ops or even Red Faction but I don't think there is a bullet drop, these games have only a delay, as for red faction, we can shoot against certain surfaces and the bullet will do one ricochet if we have a right angle, and in TO there is bullet penetration, but the ballistics are optional, they allowed to disable this feature because it could slow down network gaming and even computers.
An other thing I know Delta force used a Voxel engine, just like Outcast and some other games, but I think everyone knows, that the Voxel engines allowed to do a more realistic terrain than with 3d Engines at the time, every 3D engine had somewhat flat terrains with a low amount of variations, this is only recently that 3D engines had realistic terrain modeling

handgriffsorgfaeltig
7th Oct 2010, 11:19
yo snipers, don't try aiming so hard; maybe next year your rifle (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/10/01/self-aiming-shot-sniper-rifle-scheduled-year/) will do better...

Ninjerk
7th Oct 2010, 12:04
It was most helpful in the Ocean Labs where you were likely to be attacked whilst submerged in water.

I also am not a fan of the Ocean Lab level. I can't say why, but I intend to find out on my current playthrough. Oh how I wish HDTP would be finished already.

Ilves
7th Oct 2010, 16:06
^ In my experience the location felt a bit contrived and too James Bondish. On the other hand, the way the windowless, linear level design forced you to just blindly push forward and further down really did make you feel like you were isolated and buried under gazillion tons of water. So mixed feelings I guess.

AlexOfSpades
7th Oct 2010, 16:14
In the lower levels, i could almost feel the pressure down there. It was almost giving me a headache.

The soundtrack made it very.. oceanic. Interesting how just a bunch of sounds can remind you of water.



yo snipers, don't try aiming so hard; maybe next year your rifle (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/10/01/self-aiming-shot-sniper-rifle-scheduled-year/) will do better...

Implement that in a bulletproof robot with IFF system, and we're done.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
7th Oct 2010, 18:57
Implement that in a bulletproof robot with IFF system, and we're done.

hmm...robots are so way to futuristic...stay real with me on this and give a go for mech-warrior-toddlers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR-lmtBryl0) :nut: ...

Pinky_Powers
7th Oct 2010, 19:17
I also am not a fan of the Ocean Lab level. I can't say why, but I intend to find out on my current playthrough. Oh how I wish HDTP would be finished already.

Ocean Labs was a very uncomfortable place, true. However, I still loved it. It was wretchedly atmospheric and quite scary. Everyone was dead, and everything was broken, and all you had were some emails and journals to put the pieces together.

Very memorable.

Ninjerk
8th Oct 2010, 00:12
God, I just remembered some of the swimming parts of it... ugh.

K^2
8th Oct 2010, 01:43
Pinky, having gravity in ballistic computations is VERY easy. Even adding simple wind effect is easy if you simply accelerate the bullet. Take a look at Worms (1, 2, or even 3D) for a rather exaggerated use of this. If you fire a projectile into the wind, it's still a parabolic path, but the parabola is tilted. If you don't know better, you can think that to be a descent representation of realistic trajectory.

I was just recently advising some guy I met on a forum how to write a proper ballistics simulation that accounts for gravity and wind. If he writes something descent, I'll link you so that you can compare it to everything else.

Ninjerk
8th Oct 2010, 02:26
Pinky, having gravity in ballistic computations is VERY easy. Even adding simple wind effect is easy if you simply accelerate the bullet. Take a look at Worms (1, 2, or even 3D) for a rather exaggerated use of this. If you fire a projectile into the wind, it's still a parabolic path, but the parabola is tilted. If you don't know better, you can think that to be a descent representation of realistic trajectory.

I was just recently advising some guy I met on a forum how to write a proper ballistics simulation that accounts for gravity and wind. If he writes something descent, I'll link you so that you can compare it to everything else.

nudge nudge wink wink, GET IT EVERYBODY?!! DE SCENT

tartarus_sauce
8th Oct 2010, 04:48
It's too bad very few games actually have something that could be called sniping. I understand it'd be kind of tough to have intense 32 person battles given the +450 meter distance you need to make sniper rifles a realistic presence. The Delta Force series was great in this regard, though. There was nothing better than popping off rounds from the M-40 on a gigantic map.

I like the crossbow in DX:HR. It strikes as having the best of both worlds: scoped, distanced insta-kills without the absurdity of firing a Barret at <50 meters.

AlexOfSpades
8th Oct 2010, 11:58
Unreal 2 - The Awakening had an extremely impressive sniper, capable of insane zooms and even wind calculation.

There were few moments were you actually could use it, but in the second to last mission, in the headquarters, there's a sniping section that its just amazing. I dont know the distance but i'm sure i was picking Skaarj aliens from more than 200 meters!

spm1138
9th Oct 2010, 00:07
200 metres isn't really that long a shot.

That's exactly the kind of range intermediate bullets and ARs were designed for.

I think the best game for snipering is probably ArmA although it's still missing some stuff.

Infiltration had maps with 600-800 metre shots.

TrickyVein
9th Oct 2010, 00:15
Unreal 2 - The Awakening had an extremely impressive sniper, capable of insane zooms and even wind calculation.

There were few moments were you actually could use it, but in the second to last mission, in the headquarters, there's a sniping section that its just amazing. I dont know the distance but i'm sure i was picking Skaarj aliens from more than 200 meters!

When you return to the Terran Colonial Authority outpost by the sea? Before the Atlantis gets shot down? Yeah...I remember that.

Still, adjusting your settings in FO3 so that actors don't fade away from the player and setting up shop anywhere in the capital wasteland will guarantee you some sick kills. E.G. Grandma-sparkles shack across the Potomac from the Anchorage war memorial; the uppermost flight deck on Rivet-City down to where caravans stop by the metro; Tenpenny Tower's balcony.

Blade_hunter
9th Oct 2010, 00:20
Yeah and Arma 2 allowed to shoot people from more than 1KM :D, just love the sniping in that game.
But you know Even the Red faction 1 sniper had wind calculation, but like Unreal 2 these snipers have linear bullet trajectory, it's just to give you a reason about that, but the RF sniper have delayed projectiles, so from far away you notice the time between when you pulled the trigger and when your bullet hit the target.

But a thing I know it's the fact when used snipers you should also have subsonic bullets, some large caliber snipers have both, and even if you use a suppressor, the supersonic bullet will do noise anyway because of the sonic boom, a subsonic bullet will be silenced anyway even if it does a bit more noise than a small caliber sniper.

spm1138
10th Oct 2010, 00:21
Wouldn't switching between the two mean re-zeroing the weapon?

It's probably not that common IRL. If you think about it, firing a supersonic bullet at any kind of range, any noise produced is going to arrive either with or after the bullet.

Not that suppressors for sniper rifles are super common anyway.

I'm not sure about that for DXHR really.

DX the first let you run around with a perfectly accurate silent sniper's rifle and it made lethal infiltration pretty simple.

It can have balance implications. As I have said there are other ways to balance the player shooting everyone but it bears some looking at.

I liked how in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory your suppressed firearms weren't actually silent. I thought that was a nice touch balance-wise.