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Dead-Eye
19th Sep 2010, 05:40
I was sitting here thinking about whether I would like to see Human Revaluation succeed or not. The big thing for me is weather the game stays true to what makes a Deus Ex game. At this point the game play doesn't look like it's going to be anything revolutionary but that's only one of the many sides to a Deus Ex game.

The big thing for me is the plot. Deus Ex had the nerve to imply that John D. Rockefeller was instrumental in establishing the New World Order, regardless of weather it's true or not. The Moon landing was faked and Area-51 really has aliens... even if they are supposedly a cover up for another cover up. (To which I say that could be the cover up... maybe all those e-mails from... that guy in that tube (da breese or something) to Bob Page where made by an alien super computer to cover up the fact that the aliens are really working with the N.S.F.)

...

This isn't helping my point...


Getting back on track my point is that Deus Ex was bold in it's assertions about the New World Order conspiracy. And I hope that Human Revaluation is just a bold in the same way. If Human Revaluation has nothing to do with the New World Order conspiracy then I think there will be too many failings for this game to be called a true Deus Ex game by my fan boy standards. So if the Devs are watching then hopefully there is still time to alter the plot to try and push buttons on global issues that may or may not exist. Make something ground braking that will have politicians screaming blasphemy. That would make up for all the hand holding in my opinion.

jtr7
19th Sep 2010, 05:44
If it involves conspiracy theories woven into its fabric, the story will push those ol' buttons.

lithos
19th Sep 2010, 05:59
lol omg u guyz r teh gayzor 4 wantin a 'story"

------

I'm not really fussed on the idea of recycling the conspiracy angle too much. It was great in DX, but it was more a of a one-shot idea.

To me, the DX universe is big enough to have a few different stories, rather than ones that always involve secret societies. The tranhumanist angle's a good one, one that was touched lightly on in the original but not fully explored, how augmented humans are treated by the non-augmented. (Actually, in this context, I think "augmented" is not the best term.)

The rise of corporations and globalisation, powers not loyal to any state but to the shareholders and black ink, is another. The emergence of sentient computing. Plenty of stuff there. There's a stab at the 24-hour news cycle, too, I think.

The conspiracy angle was so unique, it would see awkward in the sequel.

rubiomhs
19th Sep 2010, 06:09
since when did you need to delve into ridiculous and obviously false conspiracy theories to "push buttons"?

from what i can tell, the story is from a much broader perspective than its predecessors. it's really dealing with aspects of humane nature itself. in light of this, conspiracy theories and whether or not there are aliens in area 51 are really trivial and silly.

hem dazon 90
19th Sep 2010, 06:12
I Didn't like the conspiracy angle towards the end of Deus ex. I mean they have this great cyberpunk thing goin and then BAM! Tinfoil hat wearin' madness

jtr7
19th Sep 2010, 06:17
The conspiracies were in DX1 from the beginning. So...throwing out a major driving element connected to most aspects of the game, does that mean nothing of the canon matters for this prequel? Pretending it isn't there doesn't mean it's not or doesn't actually count. Cripes, when you decide that something that informed everything has no value worth keeping, I guess some of you think DX is about augs and choices overall? Of course it deals with humanity, it can't help but do that.

pringlepower
19th Sep 2010, 06:31
The conspiracies were in DX1 from the beginning. So...throwing out a major driving element connected to most aspects of the game, does that mean nothing of the canon matters for this prequel? Pretending it isn't there doesn't mean it's not or doesn't actually count. Cripes, when you decide that something that informed everything has no value worth keeping, I guess some of you think DX is about augs and choices overall? Of course it deals with humanity, it can't help but do that.

Part of the problem is that it touches on, and shows to be true, basically every single conspiracy theory. Ever. Black helicopters, cattle mutilations, ECHELON, trilateral commission, think tanks, the moon landing, flu vaccines, and, in an odd bit of precognition, whether the bombing of a national landmark was an "inside job".

After the 8th or 9th conspiracy they got a bit tiring.

FrankCSIS
19th Sep 2010, 06:39
powers not loyal to any state but to the shareholders

To be fair, the state functions in the same way, except their "shareholders" are localised within a specific area. States are not loyal to the human race, they're loyal to their people. They also tend to be more loyal towards those with more shares/influence. I personally don't see any reason to support this model over a multinational taking care of their shareholders.

I once joked with my cousin about starting a Transnational Political Party. Then I realised they've been around for milleniums, but are more commonly called Religions.

rubiomhs
19th Sep 2010, 06:52
The conspiracies were in DX1 from the beginning. So...throwing out a major driving element connected to most aspects of the game, does that mean nothing of the canon matters for this prequel? Pretending it isn't there doesn't mean it's not or doesn't actually count. Cripes, when you decide that something that informed everything has no value worth keeping, I guess some of you think DX is about augs and choices overall? Of course it deals with humanity, it can't help but do that.

it deals with aspects of humanity that actually matter. the ethics of forced evolution, biomechanical engineering, man playing god, etc. aliens and nwo are a step towards irrelevant pop-culture rubbish.

xaduha
19th Sep 2010, 07:21
I once joked with my cousin about starting a Transnational Political Party. Then I realised they've been around for milleniums, but are more commonly called Religions.

how very true :)

Dead-Eye
19th Sep 2010, 08:09
Well what's Deus Ex without the Illuminati?

See I knew there would be people who would like this aspect removed because they feel it's too cheesy. We had a little rumble about 9-11 not too long ago. Yet what's cheesy to some might be all too real for other people. How can anyone here stand up and say that these conspiracy theories are all cheese when there is no way to prove it or disprove the majority of them. To me it shows arrogance to say the lest and trolling at it's worst.

Oh and for the love of god don't pull out the Razor. I'm sick of people using the Razor like it's some kinda holy book for atheists and know it all liberals.

Lets bring a conspiracy theory up that I'm not too emotionally attached to but that there is strong logic behind it's argument. In the 2004 presidential election Senator Karry withdrew from the race because he was suppose to. He let Bush win because it was all part of a plan set out by the Skull and Bones to make sure that Bush won. My logic is simple both Karry and Bush are members of the same secret society known was the Skull and Bones. SKB (as I like to call them). We know vary little about SKB, what it dose or when they hold meetings and we are not super clear on there membership other then that they pick members from one of the most prestigious university in North America. They have been the suspect of numerous conspiracy theories time and time again yet the media pretends it doesn't even exist.

Why would Karry just give up so easily? And can the American people really be that stupid as to vote the worst president in our life time to a second term? Most people I talk to believe that Karry lost and that it's the American people who are to blame. To me this whole idea is suspect. How is it that Obama wins by such a large land slide if the same American people who voted for him are also the same American people that voted Bush in twice? Did all those people wise up in the second 4 years but somehow brain farted through the first? It just doesn't add up. It makes more sense to me that Bush was a fraud and Karry was a plant.

But...

the implications of what I'm saying are too scary for anyone to really talk about. Not only am I suggesting that you're vote isn't worth (poop) but that Bush infiltrated the presidency with a purpose. That everyone of his 'mistakes' are actually well thought out screw ups to make him look incompetent when he is really serving his own dark masters. Look at what's happening in the world there isn't a hole lot of evidence to suggest I'm wrong. Alex Jones tells us that 'they' want to establish the North American Union what better way to aid that effort then by installing a proxy president that's only mission is to bankrupt the country and destroy it's citizens faith in said country.

When I think about this and look at what's happening to the world I don't really see politics being anything else then totally fake. These people, SKB, Bilderberg, etc. want to establish a New World Order and there using politics as a detraction. People are already glued to their TV and now whenever I go over to my friends house all they want to do is watch You Tubes on the computer. It's like we are all already hypnotized.

When was the last time anyone heard anything about Darfur? What the hell are politicians going to do about the national debt? Why the hell isn't our money backed by anything? What ever happened to Osama Bin Laden? Why dose Halliburton get all these government contracts when we know they are evil? When did my social security number become my name? Why do we still run off of the electoral collage? What the hell is the WTO and why do they get to trump the constitution? Why are there laws that the constitution invalidates yet the government pretends are lawful? Why are there always riots at the G20?

So to sum it up, this stuff ain't cheeze yo.

Badmaker
19th Sep 2010, 08:23
What made DX1 so great was the storyline and the real life characters, happenings, locations.

Red
19th Sep 2010, 09:50
Weather is quite nice today, I suppose. Was raining for 2 days, but it's okay now.

Bluey71
19th Sep 2010, 10:12
If Human Revaluation has nothing to do with the New World Order conspiracy then I think there will be too many failings for this game to be called a true Deus Ex game by my fan boy standards.

I think thats a fair point - DX made a great job of putting you right in the seat and making you understand that you were in places that you had absolutely no right to be in, that were connected with officialdom - Area 51, the hidden base at unatco, ocean lab etc etc.


Make something ground braking that will have politicians screaming blasphemy.
Hell yeah! But what are the chances...really...


So what is Deus Ex without the Illuminati?

QFT


Why dose Halliburton get all these government contracts when we know they are evil?

Don't know anything about Halliburton other than the Oil for Food thing that George Galloway slammed the senate with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrdFFCnYtbk

So what is the deal with Halliburton?

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Sep 2010, 13:09
C'mon, I can't be the only person who interpreted "push buttons" sexually?

Surely? :D

mad825
19th Sep 2010, 13:10
I hope that Human Revaluation is just a bold in the same way. If Human Revaluation has nothing to do with the New World Order conspiracy then I think there will be too many failings for this game to be called a true Deus Ex game by my fan boy standards. So if the Devs are watching then hopefully there is still time to alter the plot to try and push buttons on global issues that may or may not exist. Make something ground braking that will have politicians screaming blasphemy. That would make up for all the hand holding in my opinion.

Indeed I agree as well but don't forget that this is suppose to appeal to new people, at this generation publishers/developers think that they are idiots. I would say to expect more action and less thinking, a more dumbed down version of IW (plot wise) and it's a bit too late to do any drastic changes.

whether≠weather.Revolution≠Revaluation, sorry I feel that the misspelling of these two words are inexcusable
EDIT:Revaluation!:lmao: I see what you did there....now

Red
19th Sep 2010, 13:25
C'mon, I can't be the only person who interpreted "push buttons" sexually?

Surely? :D

Yeah, first things that popped in my mind was Fedorova... Emm, how to put it... pushing particular someone's buttons :P

xsamitt
19th Sep 2010, 13:27
C'mon, I can't be the only person who interpreted "push buttons" sexually?

Surely? :D

Your kinkier than me apparently. :keir::worship:

Blackbird SR-71C
19th Sep 2010, 13:32
I was sitting here thinking about whether I would like to see Human Revaluation succeed or not. The big thing for me is weather the game stays true to what makes a Deus Ex game. At this point the game play doesn't look like it's going to be anything revolutionary but that's only one of the many sides to a Deus Ex game.

The big thing for me is the plot. Deus Ex had the nerve to imply that John D. Rockefeller was instrumental in establishing the New World Order, regardless of weather it's true or not. The Moon landing was faked and Area-51 really has aliens... even if they are supposedly a cover up for another cover up. (To which I say that could be the cover up... maybe all those e-mails from... that guy in that tube (da breese or something) to Bob Page where made by an alien super computer to cover up the fact that the aliens are really working with the N.S.F.)

...

This isn't helping my point...


Getting back on track my point is that Deus Ex was bold in it's assertions about the New World Order conspiracy. And I hope that Human Revaluation is just a bold in the same way. If Human Revaluation has nothing to do with the New World Order conspiracy then I think there will be too many failings for this game to be called a true Deus Ex game by my fan boy standards. So if the Devs are watching then hopefully there is still time to alter the plot to try and push buttons on global issues that may or may not exist. Make something ground braking that will have politicians screaming blasphemy. That would make up for all the hand holding in my opinion.

Human Revaluation? Really?

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Sep 2010, 13:35
Your kinkier than me apparently. :keir::worship:

Must be something they put in the water.


Yeah, first things that popped in my mind was Fedorova... Emm, how to put it... pushing particular someone's buttons :P

Funny that, I conceptualised it the other way around.

MaxxQ1
19th Sep 2010, 15:21
whether≠weather.Revolution≠Revaluation, sorry I feel that the misspelling of these two words are inexcusable

Psssst... you missed "ground-breaking". :D

Dead-Eye
19th Sep 2010, 18:27
Well it's too late to change anything so I can only hope that they did this anyway. It's kinda funny to think that Deus Ex Human Revaluation is going to be released in Japan. A game that's all about the man trying to put everyone down released in a country that values discipline and loyalty over all other virtues.

handgriffsorgfaeltig
19th Sep 2010, 22:53
... to be released in Japan. ... a country that values discipline and loyalty over all other virtues.

This is madness...This is JAPAN!


( sry, but i love this people and their country a lot; always on the edge ^^)

Dead-Eye
20th Sep 2010, 01:55
So what is the deal with Halliburton?

Dick Chaney. That guy is so evil you can just look in his eyes and you know he is evil.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 02:29
I feel the concept of conspiracy is essential to Deus Ex. The original game was built around all the popular conspiracies of the last fifty years or so, mixed and brewed until they formed a plot. And then the plot was worked and reworked until it was amazing.

The feeling that someone or something is residing in shadow, pulling all the strings and moving all the pieces on the board, elicits a strong sense of being watched... of vulnerability. You feel small, even while you're doing great big things. And when your actions clearly change something, it's all the more wonderful and real.

Mankind's imagination is always capable of coming up with new conspiracies, and that is what I want from Human Revolution. But it still needs a sprinkling of the oldies to tie it all together in a nice atmospheric bow.

rubiomhs
20th Sep 2010, 02:35
conspiracy theories are the realm of low brow pulp fiction. deus ex human revolution is a great chance to veer away from the whole fake moon landing rubbish that really made deus ex more mainstream than anything.

jtr7
20th Sep 2010, 02:35
DX1 was built up from, not lessened for, the X-Files approach. If you don't like it, was it the mechanics you liked about DX1?

Since this is a prequel, I could see the conspiracies pulled more behind-the-scenes and left to the crazies and the paranoid within that universe, with just enough truth coming out to create a sliver of real doubt about what one thinks is really going on, while DX1 is where it all comes out. Those who've played DX1 will see the seeds in the cracks and crevices, and those who begin with DX:HR will get an inkling they won't be able to pin down.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 02:58
conspiracy theories are the realm of low brow pulp fiction.

That's as close-minded as you can get.

FrankCSIS
20th Sep 2010, 03:02
I find the approach to the conspiracies to be a more telling and distinctive part of the experience than the conspiracies themselves. Jock is probably the key to understanding the approach, the character which sums up the whole strategy.

After being introduced to a universe through a very one-sided medium (UNATCO), and exploring some of the folklore the world has to offer, world not so different from the 90's and its pop culture, you come across a man who heavily and bluntly suggests that most of the stories you've heard, in the streets as well as in fiction, are not only true, but they are low level gossip compared to the extent of which reality stretches. He knows, because he's been a part of it, and seen it all, from the inside. Through him, and through others, if you so decide, you will find out about them, get priviledged access to the truth which is otherwise hidden.

An equivalent could be to come across a man who tells you that the fears you've had about technology as a doctrine, about politics and institutions, about mass communication and manipulation, about the economy and its social aspects, are not only well founded, but they are nothing compared to the sheer terror that is blooming on the horizon.

Hammich
20th Sep 2010, 03:21
As Jtr7 said, Deus Ex was a development of todays modern government progressed with the conspiracies to the point where the foundations were crumbling and it was all falling apart, but an incarnation of modern government nontheless.
Both Deus Ex and Invisible war ended on the verge of astronomical social and political change hanging on the players choice, to keep with the series chronology, Human Revolution needs to be the first game in the series to not do this.

Dead-Eye
20th Sep 2010, 03:22
I find the approach to the conspiracies to be a more telling and distinctive part of the experience than the conspiracies themselves. Jock is probably the key to understanding the approach, the character which sums up the whole strategy.

After being introduced to a universe through a very one-sided medium (UNATCO), and exploring some of the folklore the world has to offer, world not so different from the 90's and its pop culture, you come across a man who heavily and bluntly suggests that most of the stories you've heard, in the streets as well as in fiction, are not only true, but they are low level gossip compared to the extent of which reality stretches. He knows, because he's been a part of it, and seen it all, from the inside. Through him, and through others, if you so decide, you will find out about them, get priviledged access to the truth which is otherwise hidden.

An equivalent could be to come across a man who tells you that the fears you've had about technology as a doctrine, about politics and institutions, about mass communication and manipulation, about the economy and its social aspects, are not only well founded, but they are nothing compared to the sheer terror that is blooming on the horizon.

Human Revaluation looks like it's central theme is trans humanism. It's vary easy to come up with thousands of theoretical situations involving the elite using the powers of said technology to enslave a population. Drugs used to control people's minds. The all seeing eye of Echelon. Manipulation of synthetic markets, etc.

I could see how this game could shock people if it used the elements to a dramatic effect. The first game sure shocked me when I realized all this technology was possible.


As Jtr7 said, Deus Ex was a development of todays modern government progressed with the conspiracies to the point where the foundations were crumbling and it was all falling apart, but an incarnation of modern government nontheless.
Both Deus Ex and Invisible war ended on the verge of astronomical social and political change hanging on the players choice, to keep with the series chronology, Human Revolution needs to be the first game in the series to not do this.
Was that a joke? Or am I losing my ability to read?

TrickyVein
20th Sep 2010, 03:32
^^ There's nothing that the "sheer terror" can be that hasn't already been seen before. It's the approach to how the conspiracy unfolds rather than the actual conspiracy that's interesting.

Eugenics: check. Genocide: check. Corruption in politics: meta-check. Control of knowledge and media (catholic church in middle ages): check. Engineered viruses: check. Government funded terrorism: check.

Any one of the above examples would make for a fine conspiracy - we don't need 5 or more big, honking, holes in the ocean to "up the ante" in place of good story-telling. I'm not saying giant holes are a bad idea, only to have a good conspiracy, one doesn't need to follow the most outlandish, convoluted ideas he can conjure.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 03:42
only to have a good conspiracy, one doesn't need to follow the most outlandish, convoluted ideas he can conjure.

True, true. But the end of the game should still take place in some large, wondrous setting... like Area 51 directly after being hit with a nuke. :D

But nothing, not graphics, nor environments, nor wild concepts should take president over a well-crafted, compelling story.

avenging_teabag
20th Sep 2010, 06:33
posted a wall of text
Conspiracies aren't bad per ce; some of them might even exist, noone knows for sure really. It's the way they were implemented in DX that was questionable, especially late in the game it all became a stonking mess of Illuminati, Knight Templars, aliens, Area 51, clones in jars and I forgot what else all piled on top of each other. Frankly, it became a little absurd, and I'd be glad if HR avoided it. We already know that it will have at least one conspiracy, so they got that part covered already. And more in this case is almost certainly not better.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 06:47
^... According to the E3 trailer: "It's a time of chaos... and conspiracy."

This to me implies a multitude of conspiracies. So... you might want to take some Advil or something before playing. Cause things are probably gonna get nuts. ...which I like. ;)

avenging_teabag
20th Sep 2010, 06:51
^ I'll settle for two conspiracies. Two is okay. I can take two.

Pinky_Powers
20th Sep 2010, 06:57
What about two and a half? Say, the Illuminati, some villainous mischief concerning Transhumanism, and strangely over-priced soy products... but in the end, it's revealed soy beans are just on strike, so no biggie.

avenging_teabag
20th Sep 2010, 07:05
I propose the big reveal be that it's the illuminati that's behind the soy beans prices. That way there'll only be two! Perfect!

Abram730
2nd Oct 2010, 21:08
conspiracy theories are the realm of low brow pulp fiction. deus ex human revolution is a great chance to veer away from the whole fake moon landing rubbish that really made deus ex more mainstream than anything.

DX:HR should stay away from lowbrow CT as found in DX:IW... Ideologies however must be lowbrow by nature. Some casual gamers would prefer propaganda to truth as lies are simple to understand and black and white with clear distinction drawn between good and evil. The game should have a simple plot path for them to believe. Some exploration, hacking, investigation should be required to make a more informed conclusion. I'd like to see some plot complexity. Poking a hole in peoples fantasy of the world makes for a good game and exposing the gritty grays of reality. Assuming a curious player, the world should be a complex one with no simple solutions... Yet you use a simple solution and thus have sequels. A deus ex mechina.

The coffee conspiracy in DX:IW was painfully lowbrow.

A higher brow conclusion of the Moon landing, would be that There was a "make it or fake it" methodology for the moon landing. It was during the cold war and we couldn't fail... Also the PR opportunity couldn't be lost to faulty equipment. Just because there are doctored photos doesn't mean the whole thing was a fake... During divergent thought one must consider as many possibilities as possible settling on the best... Once all the parts are finished you do convergent thinking to see if the parts fit. If it doesn't fit "Rinse and repeat" excluding what doesn't fit. One can end up with a few different models for what happened so you choose the best. I think there was a PR campaign to maximize the geopolitical effect of landing on the moon or fake it if we couldn't. I think that could be a source for doctored images. We could of faked a or some moon landings, but all? Now that would amazing me.

I'd give Al Qaedia as an example of lowbrow CT.
http://www.garlicandgrass.org/issue8/Robert_Sheer.cfm

clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmbg8ZKSiNM#t=6m22s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8WKkHdOboI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp8mrSISkY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uve-JkNujj0

Fake Muslim extremists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsUtvOW6SR0
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2550513.stm

Fake Muslims on 911
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aKj6uJ5Mt4

Al Qaedia during the cold war. How does one argue with schizophrenics or pathological lairs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGwYzbxufv0#t=2m16s
A simple rinse and repeat.

Lies about more then just a Global organized terrorist group, but lies to redefine America's view of the world going back to the cold war. Neo-cons believe that America is a cesspool and that our personal freedoms are the cause.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_C0wrqJ8BQ#t4m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8qpL7prVms

The godfather of neoconservatism speaking. Basically fascist inspired communist Trotsky's who redefined liberalism and then redefined conservatism.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8NfnfVzMIs

Schizophrenics see what is not there, lairs make it up.

What about the media?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_e8Fsw4jls

where do they get their info?
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2009/12/30/is-israel-controlling-phony-terror-news/

wire services perhaps?
early news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNK1V6S2cbo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1LetB0z8_o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgrvmF1hZa4

Liberal media?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKV7tT4OL1s#t=1m

to those who trust the media..something to think about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Frp13p1APc

Who owns the mass media?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP2ugWUzGo0

Bill Moyers, The Media Propaganda Machine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADgBM2LNpJE

Who says Bin Laden did 911?

Not the Bush white house
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb3fesK-4S4
Not the FBI or Justice Dept.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1PEs0btWWc

Top Secret America.
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/

What happened on 911 is Top Secret. I'm sure there are people upset about 911 who know much more then me... but they couldn't talk about classified material, now could they.

I think that those who believe the official story are a great example of why democracy can't exist... Some people are unable/unwilling to think for themselves. Natural Slaves as Aristotle put it, those lacking a deliberative faculty. They defer to others, dismissing facts that make them "feel" bad and want to "believe" everything is OK. They let those on the magic box think for them so they need not trouble themselves with thought. They will actively self delude themselves to maintain their belief structure.

One can study how such people defer even the most basic of thoughts to others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMfNGG-pTzc

Freedom is not something you can give or be given short of anarchy.. It can be learned and taught though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrNIuFrso8I

zombieturtle01
2nd Oct 2010, 22:45
Obama is going to be in the game, and he's gunna be an evil dude makin conspiracies about hope and adem jensen gotta figure it out

Dead-Eye
2nd Oct 2010, 23:12
Two is okay. I can take two.
That's what she said!!!

Remington
2nd Oct 2010, 23:32
^^ Just when I thought this forum was regaining its intellectual users

hem dazon 90
3rd Oct 2010, 00:40
^^ Just when I thought this forum was regaining its intellectual users

If you think he was serious you are part of the problem yourself.

OwlSolar
3rd Oct 2010, 01:18
^^ Just when I thought this forum was regaining its intellectual users
I count as negative thirty intellectual users, so you're gonna need a lot to balance me out.

Dead-Eye
5th Oct 2010, 01:50
If you think he was serious you are part of the problem yourself.

It's true. I'm one of those basement dwelling virgins. Making my statement near impossible to be true.

Dead-Eye
19th Nov 2010, 19:54
Bumping an old thread here because I thought of something new.

I guess the big thing I would like to see is a debunking of this whole idea of a "War on Terror" which if you give about a few seconds of critical thinking you realize is a complete and utter fabrication and distortion of how things really work in reality. Someone around here posted a video about some Rockefeller saying that they are going to use this "War on Terror" to make people accept unconstitutional legislation that would take away our basic rights outlined in the bill of rights and the first 10 amendments to the constitution. Which is already being done by things like the Patriot Act and Homeland Security from what I have noticed. Yet this "war" is unwinnable because the word "Terrorist" is just a word. And as we should all know from playing Deus Ex one man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter.

The root of the problem is probably something much bigger and if we look at society as a whole but look at people as individuals we might be able to spot it and correct it. Yet all this War on Terror thing is going to accomplish is more of the same old stuff that's been making things worse for a long time now. Increased militarization, less money for education, reduction of basic freedoms, etc.

Maybe part of the problem with Invisible War was outlined in the sentence on the box art that read something like "The Future War on Terror". It was a real politically hectic time when the game came out and instead of shunning this whole "War on Tarror" as the scam that it turned out to be, the game's box art was in open praise of it. Yet the game had barley anything to do with it and basically pretended it wasn't happening. Just imagine if Deus Ex 2 had been a prequel in which you played as a CIA agent gone rogue during the Bush Administration year? Sure it might have been less entertaining then the original in terms of gameplay but at lest it would have been vary controversial for the time and it might have even have caused Fox News to try and run a bash on it. Which to me would have been hilarious because I don't take Fox News seriously and think that everyone else shouldn't ether.

I have been told that Mark Twain was quoted saying "There's 20,000 copies right there." when he was informed that his book was banned is some state ( I think Alabama). So from a sails stand point controversy sells and anything is better then what Invisable War ran with. Still it was too early to see how everything would turn out and I only recognize this particular mistake only years after Bush's Rain of Terror had already ended.

Still, if Human Revaluation did it right the story will have this point come across without the developers really needing to do anything about it. As the story, setting, characters and the combination of the elements will make this point come across on it's own accord. In such a case the slightly more stylized setting will add something of a safety net for the development team because they can always pass it off as fiction when in reality it's really a persuasive argument ageist this idiotic mentality that we can actully win a "War on Terror".

TheWoodsieLord
19th Nov 2010, 20:11
I just hope that the game does not, in any way, force you to work for the US goverment.

AlexOfSpades
19th Nov 2010, 20:17
If there's one thing that Deus Ex taught me, is that the US government is rotten.

Pinky_Powers
20th Nov 2010, 01:01
If there's one thing that Deus Ex taught me, is that the US government is rotten.

Indeed it is. But it was only following the English monarchy. ;)

chickenbrothel
20th Nov 2010, 09:23
I think it's telling that the term "conspiracy theory" immediately has a negative connotation. When this phrase is used to describe someone's way of thinking, that person is immediately labeled as a nut job. Yet, we all believe in conspiracies. Any time two or more people make secret plans to do something wrong it's a conspiracy. That's the very definition of conspiracy. Do you people honestly believe that two or more people never get together and make secret plans to do wrong? Of course they do. So you do believe in conspiracies. You don't believe 9/11 was an inside job? Then that means you believe it was a group of terrorists who made secret plans to do wrong and then acted them out. THAT is a conspiracy!
One of the greatest terrorist plots in our history orchestrated by men in a cave = truth.
Government complicity in a false flag operation to further a political agenda via the always effective "order out of chaos." -ca-RAZY! Who let the loonies out?

coweater
20th Nov 2010, 10:13
I think it's telling that the term "conspiracy theory" immediately has a negative connotation. When this phrase is used to describe someone's way of thinking, that person is immediately labeled as a nut job. Yet, we all believe in conspiracies. Any time two or more people make secret plans to do something wrong it's a conspiracy. That's the very definition of conspiracy. Do you people honestly believe that two or more people never get together and make secret plans to do wrong? Of course they do. So you do believe in conspiracies. You don't believe 9/11 was an inside job? Then that means you believe it was a group of terrorists who made secret plans to do wrong and then acted them out. THAT is a conspiracy!
One of the greatest terrorist plots in our history orchestrated by men in a cave = truth.
Government complicity in a false flag operation to further a political agenda via the always effective "order out of chaos." -ca-RAZY! Who let the loonies out?

There are as many conspiracies as there are people that believe in them. From political conspiracies to rip off money from funding freeways by awarding the contract to builders that give kickbacks, to conspiracies to control governments by stacking political parties with individuals that have vices. Deus Ex would be very little without conspiracies, even the coffee conspiracy in Invisible War is more than some people would think of. In fact it was a refreshing break from the more outlandish conspiracies and something that I thought made Invisible War the great game it was.

I wonder if Beth Duclare will make her appearance in Human Revolution. Human Revolution has some big shoes to fill and not everyone will be happy with it. Just like some people would have thought that Deus Ex was a little crazy with it's Illuminati references.

BigBoss
20th Nov 2010, 20:38
I hope we see this game in the news for controversy, but not because of a sex scene........hopefully something smarter.

Unstoppable
20th Nov 2010, 21:12
No doubt there is something going on in the world of Human Revolution that you as Adam will unravel.

Dead-Eye
20th Nov 2010, 23:49
Well we all know the Illuminati exists in Deus Ex; That's at lest one grand conspiracy that Human Revaluation has to include.

My big question is will Human Revaluation alter the story a little to keep up with current world events? Will references be made to the Bilderberg group, Free Masons and the Skull & Bones frat club? What about Bush and 9-11? Stepping away from reality and into the world of Deus Ex did Bush know there was going to be an attack and did nothing? I mean we already know they rigged the 2000 and 2004 election, that's a fact and everyone in America, who has at lest 2 brain cells firing in the right direction, knows it. Oddly enough there is a vary large amount of Americans the refuse to believe the election was rigged. I'm not saying their stupid rather I believe they have been indoctrinated by things like TV, the Media, etc. to such a degree that they can't believe Bush and the Skull and Bones rigged the 2000 and 2004 elections when it's so painfully obvious.

It's funny because whenever we bring up this debate someone is inevitably going to refute my clams about 9-11 and the rigged elections. I might present some evidence, usually not because it's a waste of time, then someone else will present counter evidence. Yet the thing that's so funny is no one will believe the other because both parties think their in the right. Yet the evidence contradicts each other so much it's obvious someone's proof is lying. I should add that no one's evidence in necessary intended to lie, rather it's probably written by people that are so used to the lie that the author probably believes the lie themselves and thus creates subjective material because they aren't capable of believing the truth. It's how I believe the N.W.O. uses us without us even knowing it. Much like how Christianity insures that it's ideas are installed into children when their young so they won't question the church when they get older.

I think the world has far too few critical thinkers and games of late seem more aimed at destroying critical thinking then promoting it. Human Revaluation really needs to step up the critical thinking in order the save gamers from themselves.

Rindill the Red
21st Nov 2010, 00:31
Well we all know the Illuminati exists in Deus Ex; That's at lest one grand conspiracy that Human Revaluation has to include.

My big question is will Human Revaluation alter the story a little to keep up with current world events? Will references be made to the Bilderberg group, Free Masons and the Skull & Bones frat club? What about Bush and 9-11? Stepping away from reality and into the world of Deus Ex did Bush know there was going to be an attack and did nothing? I mean we already know they rigged the 2000 and 2004 election, that's a fact and everyone in America, who has at lest 2 brain cells firing in the right direction, knows it. Oddly enough there is a vary large amount of Americans the refuse to believe the election was rigged. I'm not saying their stupid rather I believe they have been indoctrinated by things like TV, the Media, etc. to such a degree that they can't believe Bush and the Skull and Bones rigged the 2000 and 2004 elections when it's so painfully obvious.

It's funny because whenever we bring up this debate someone is inevitably going to refute my clams about 9-11 and the rigged elections. I might present some evidence, usually not because it's a waste of time, then someone else will present counter evidence. Yet the thing that's so funny is no one will believe the other because both parties think their in the right. Yet the evidence contradicts each other so much it's obvious someone's proof is lying. I should add that no one's evidence in necessary intended to lie, rather it's probably written by people that are so used to the lie that the author probably believes the lie themselves and thus creates subjective material because they aren't capable of believing the truth. It's how I believe the N.W.O. uses us without us even knowing it. Much like how Christianity insures that it's ideas are installed into children when their young so they won't question the church when they get older.

I think the world has far too few critical thinkers and games of late seem more aimed at destroying critical thinking then promoting it. Human Revaluation really needs to step up the critical thinking in order the save gamers from themselves.

It doesn't make sense that this "skull and cross-bones" society would rig the election for Bush and not for McCain. It really seems like the 2008 elections were rigged for Obama, to tell you the truth. It's like McCain shot himself a few times then gave up. I, for one, believe the two party system to be a shame on democracy.

In any case... Christianity does indoctrinate children at a young age... but that doesn't mean they don't question the church when they get older... in fact, most christian high-school programs encourage teens to question the church and their faith and teach them about other world religions as well, while making no claim to the veracity or falseness of any teachings. An important tenet of Christianity is that the individual come to accept Christ through knowledge and personal exploration rather than through ignorance.

WildcatPhoenix
21st Nov 2010, 00:54
Conspiracy, broadly defined, is an integral part of the Deus Ex recipe. However, this doesn't mean the main plot of DXHR has to feature all of the same players (Illuminati, MJ12, X-51, UNATCO) as the original. What I actually hope the writers have avoided this time is the "your employer is actually the bad guy" which Deus Ex touched on.

For some reason, the revelation that UNATCO was actually behind these terrible troubles plaguing the world hit me hard in the original game. When I escaped from the MJ12 labs and found myself on Level Three of UNATCO HQ, I was devastated. And pissed. I'd been duped, manipulated, lied to. In the previous missions I had happily dispatched dozens of "terrorists" with lethal abandon, and here I was, discovering the blood on my hands might just be innocent after all.

I don't think a sequel/prequel could recapture that initial moment of shock. And quite honestly, it doesn't have to for me to be emotionally connected to the story. I felt that IW played this card very very poorly. Alex finds out he's been duped by the Tarsus Academy in the first mission of the game! There was no dramatic weight, no gasp of outrage, just a shrug of indifference from me. The same when I found out The Order and WTO were the same organization. I just didn't care.

But conspiracies and lies are major staples of the cyberpunk genre, so tossing out all the "tinfoil hat" theories would be detrimental to the story, in my opinion. You just have to give them time to develop, and they do have to create an emotional impact on the reader/viewer/player. None of this coffee conspiracy garbage. Make me care for someone, force me to make choices I will regret later, and only then go for the Big Reveal.

TheYouthCounselor
21st Nov 2010, 01:18
We do know that many of the top developers are avid conspiracy theorists or at least know a lot about them. Then there was that piece of concept art with a wanted poster for George Bush for acts of mass murder. We know that they probably want to push buttons, but we would have to wait and see if it ever transpires.

The original had the gall to name the Rockefellers, Rothchilds, and De Beers's some of the most powerful and influential political families in the world then and today, as Illuminati.

Dead-Eye
21st Nov 2010, 01:26
^^ Deus Ex had GALLS OF STEEL!


It doesn't make sense that this "skull and cross-bones" society would rig the election for Bush and not for McCain.
Well for one, Bush is a member of SKB and McCain is not. SKB protects it's own, not republicans.

The Two-Party system isn't what I would imagine as a system where on one side there is the demarcates who are fighting for the side of good or whatever, and on the other side there is the republicans fighting for the New World Order. Rather I believe the two party system is a tool that the N.W.O. use to control the masses by instigating conflict of ideas that are completely meaningless in the greater scheme of things. Both parties are working for the N.W.O. (Probably without the majority even knowing it) which is why nothing ever really changes. Because in order for an individual to change things they need to side with one side of the party or the other on issues that don't really matter. Both sides a propagating conflict of ideas that, in reality, the N.W.O. doesn't really care about. It's why everyone is tied up in Gay Marriage, Border control, Evolution, etc. and you will not here Fox News mention the North American Union even once. Because both sides are just a distraction to keep us from noticing the real, bigger, problem. And it's why everything is getting worse instead of better.

@wildcat: I agree completely. And at the same time I suggest that playing around with ideas that are actually grounded somewhat in reality is one of the best ways to create the same level of emotional attachment that Deus Ex had. Like the idea that Bush planned 9-11 makes the game have some grounding with real world events. A lot of people have an emotional attachment to that event and thus exploring it in a way that might be completely fantasy would be quit engaging. Although 9-11 is a bit too drastic. Better to go with something a little less upsetting like the 2000 presidental election. Or maybe how the Illuminati controls Fox News or something.

PlasmaSnake101
21st Nov 2010, 01:55
I'm still reading through the thread but I want to say this first, conspiracy theories are at the heart of the Deus Ex franchise. The words "Question Everything, Trust No One" are written on the back of the CD case. It's about hidden truths, the very definition of conspiracy.

With that said, I'm hoping they stay away from the whole Zeitgeist School of Conspiracy Theories, Assassin's Creed 2 seems to hint towards this, at least part one of Zeitgeist. Being a fan of conspiracy theories I was forced to watch Zeitgeist, despite this I don't believe in any major conspiracy theory. It would seem the most likely to be true have almost no real impact on anything important.

Also, corporate fraud will be a move they make, I just hope they don't burn an effigy of Capitalism on my computer screen, since it seems I'm one of the few fans of the cyber-punk style that favors Capitalism. I'm expecting a corrupt corporation or two, but I hope they avoid the theme that has been used countless times.

Also, I hope the Bush Administration doesn't get too much ****, upon reflection I've noticed they did/tried to do a lot of good things. Among these things was an attempt to regulate Fannie and Freddie in 2004 and set a withdrawal date for Iraq, even though the Obama Administration will get credit for it. However, the good things are completely outweighed by the bad. I oppose every facet of the neo-conservative movement but for some reason I like a lot of the members of the Bush Administration such as Cheney and Rove, I even like Bush as a person, not as a president.

Also, addressing Dead-Eye's theory over the 2004 election. The nation was still mildly united under the terrorist combating fervor which would make a party switch pretty hard to begin with. Secondly, Kerry's actions during the Vietnam Protests devastated his chances, a major blow. Additionally, it is a common trait throughout American history that the Presidency rarely changes hands during a time of war. As for Obama's success and the political 180, war weariness had set in and the financial meltdown didn't help the republicans at all. On top of that, Mr. Bush was not the best speaker and at times seemed foolish. I think he's a smart man, but then again he's from Texas and that never makes someone look bright. The political pendulum is still swinging violently, so America politics are getting really interesting.

I would be thrilled if they touched on the subject manner covered in the anime "Serial Experiments Lain." Some really complex and confusing events and ideas would be great. Conspiracy is almost at the heart of the genre itself.

Sorry for my long absence friends.

Dead-Eye
21st Nov 2010, 02:31
Dick Chaney is the single most evil person on the face of the planet. You just look into his eyes and everything about him screams me first and screw all the rest of you. His actions as vice president confirm this.

If that whole Lizard People conspiracy turns out to be true I have no doubt that Dick Chaney is one of them.

Rindill the Red
21st Nov 2010, 02:54
Dick Chaney is the single most evil person on the face of the planet. You just look into his eyes and everything about him screams me first and screw all the rest of you. His actions as vice president confirm this.

If that whole Lizard People conspiracy turns out to be true I have no doubt that Dick Chaney is one of them.

Did you hear? Dick Cheney has no pulse. http://gizmodo.com/5591021/dick-cheney-has-no-pulse-seriously