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rubiomhs
18th Sep 2010, 00:13
All of the characters look like basketball players, aesthetically, it doesn't look good at all.

The artist who did this set a great example. Why have the character modelers failed to use this more sensible proportion?

http://images.gamersyde.com/image_deus_ex_human_revolution-13508-2038_0001.jpg

rubiomhs
18th Sep 2010, 00:18
i mean look at this. what the hell? that guy's head to body ratio is about 12, normal human ratio: 7

http://images.gamersyde.com/image_deus_ex_human_revolution-13803-2038_0006.jpg

sonicsidewinder
18th Sep 2010, 00:18
bigger is better?

mad825
18th Sep 2010, 00:20
they are 6 foot tall? or 5 foot?

rubiomhs
18th Sep 2010, 00:26
they all look like they're at least 7'5.

i mean augmented characters maybe have shin struts or whatever sci fi excuse they come up with, but i have seen a lot of screenshots and literally all of these characters have tiny heads and huge bodies. put in some normal humans please. in fact, make the majority of the characters "human" length".

jtr7
18th Sep 2010, 00:27
They all have a Napoleonic Syndrome. But yeah, it's been brought up before with images like this:
http://www.shrani.si/?1E/fE/sO9LAgE/1/scientist.jpg

mad825
18th Sep 2010, 00:30
you see, this is the boring side of realism.

one would say, "what does it matter?" they are security guys, expect them to be beefy not short and stick thin even so, in the digital world the meaning of an individual (or individuality) in terms of appearance is non-existent.

besides this is not going for the photorealism.

rubiomhs
18th Sep 2010, 00:33
how is realism boring? to me fantasy like lord of the rings is boring. people think you have to make **** up to be imaginative. the truth is stranger than fiction. i like it when artist find inspiration from reality. see that armored vest looks practical, so do the vent(or sensor) holes on the helmet. ridiculous human ratios? not so much.

jtr7
18th Sep 2010, 00:33
Why is there ever any interest in how things are made and behind-the-scenes stuff?

mad825
18th Sep 2010, 00:35
how is realism boring? to me fantasy like lord of the rings is boring. people think you have to make **** up to be imaginative. the truth is stranger than fiction.

no, I never said realism is boring but some parts of it are, like this.

rubiomhs
18th Sep 2010, 00:39
skinny ankles that can never in a million years support a grown human...that is silly to me. it's not even about realism, but how much silliness you can take. you can look at a piece of art that has its own style and whatnot, but ultimately, if you want to translate that into a game based on reality, with all the appropriate physical properties, they have to look like they make sense. giraffe proportioned humans and skinny 50lb scientists look ridiculous. that is really my only gripe.

also, in most of the screenshots, the length of the hand from finger to wrist is longer than the head. ever see yourself in a mirror? is your hand that long?

i'm convinced that some people simply do not notice such details and they'll usually come up with an excuse to hide the fact that they don't pay attention. well, i do. i appreciate art(such as the one done by the character artist), and to me, the model maker has sullied his work.

sonicsidewinder
18th Sep 2010, 00:39
Dont worry rubiomhs, the bigger they are...well you know the rest. ;)

mad825
18th Sep 2010, 00:47
skinny ankles that can never in a million years support a grown human...that is silly to me. it's not even about realism, but how much silliness you can take. you can look at a piece of art that has its own style and whatnot, but ultimately, if you want to translate that into a game based on reality, with all the appropriate physical properties, they have to look like they make sense. giraffe proportioned humans and skinny 50lb scientists look ridiculous. that is really my only gripe.

oh,boy!

I would hate to hear you if this was late 1990s/early 2000s graphics, people would have smashed in faces with flat sides for cheeks :lol:.

IOOI
18th Sep 2010, 00:50
@ OP

Yeah I was expecting there to be NPCs with different proportions - with different head shapes (ie: bigger forehead) and different types of body (ie: fat and slim people).

For instance, when I heard about Jensen's friend at the Police Station I was reasoning that the guy would gain some weight due to his desk job, but from what we've seen from the concept art he was pretty slim (I know it might be changed in the game).

jjc
18th Sep 2010, 00:50
Look perfectly normal to me...

rubiomhs
18th Sep 2010, 01:06
Look perfectly normal to me...

is your hand longer than your head? go take a look in the mirror. are you 7'5 foot tall with a head to body ratio of 10?

most humans share basic ratios. usually people have a head to body ratio of 1:6.5. artists prefer 1:7/8 as an "ideal". but 1:10 is looking rather silly.

Pinky_Powers
18th Sep 2010, 01:08
It's true, the proportions look very wrong. I'm not convinced it's the same for every shot we've seen, but some of these are ridiculous.

demon boy
18th Sep 2010, 01:11
I remember reading an interview where one of the developers said that they wanted the game to look and feel like a graphic novel with a slightly stylized artistic aproach. They're not going for photorealism here.

pringlepower
18th Sep 2010, 01:13
Well Barrett's actually just tall.

IOOI
18th Sep 2010, 01:21
I remember reading an interview where one of the developers said that they wanted the game to look and feel like a graphic novel with a slightly stylized artistic aproach. They're not going for photorealism here.

And what about fat/large/muscled people, for instance? There could be some of them.

The Monochrome Man
18th Sep 2010, 01:22
Just did a quick check for that second image in the GIMP and got 8:1 - that's a little tall, but not hugely so. It's probably worth remembering that Anime characters tend to be 7-8 heads tall (males) and 6-7 heads tall (females).

I mention the Anime convention as I seem to recall an interview where they stated the character designs were in part inspired by Nomura, of Final Fantasy fame.

IOOI
18th Sep 2010, 01:29
^ Yeah, but aesthetically these ain't pretty.

The Monochrome Man
18th Sep 2010, 01:37
To be honest, Nine, I wouldn't have realised it was off if the OP hadn't said anything.

IOOI
18th Sep 2010, 01:44
Depends. If you have some notions about proportions, canons and if you're used to work with them you will notice. For instance I can barely watch a 4:3 distorted image on a 16:9 screen. But for most people it doesn't matter.

Pinky_Powers
18th Sep 2010, 01:44
I remember reading an interview where one of the developers said that they wanted the game to look and feel like a graphic novel with a slightly stylized artistic aproach. They're not going for photorealism here.

Don't throw the "photo-realism" card at me! All good artists can work within any style and still keep fundamentals like proportions, anatomy and diversity as a principle. Even the most stylized cartoon can keep a 7-8 head-body ratio for the average male character.

NKD
18th Sep 2010, 01:58
Their leg and torso proportions look normal for taller-than-average guys. Their heads are just tiny. Of course other characters we've seen don't seem to have this problem, so who knows.

The Monochrome Man
18th Sep 2010, 02:12
It's all a cleverly concealed plot to make headshots more challenging. >_>

Pinky_Powers
18th Sep 2010, 02:15
Or maybe it's a clever plot device, wherein we discover that Transhumanism shrinks head size.

Bushmonster
18th Sep 2010, 02:17
my security guards are cranially augmented

couldnt resist :D

lithos
18th Sep 2010, 02:17
i mean look at this. what the hell? that guy's head to body ratio is about 12, normal human ratio: 7

Pinheads? Sounds like HR's target audience.

Ubersuntzu
18th Sep 2010, 04:11
Don't throw the "photo-realism" card at me! All good artists can work within any style and still keep fundamentals like proportions, anatomy and diversity as a principle. Even the most stylized cartoon can keep a 7-8 head-body ratio for the average male character.

The most stylized Western cartoon, yes. They're only "fundamentals" because YOU feel like getting hung up on it.

Take a look at some Brink screenshots, then come back and tell us what a horrible game it looks like. Should be a lot of fun for the rest of us.

Pinky_Powers
18th Sep 2010, 04:34
The most stylized Western cartoon, yes. They're only "fundamentals" because YOU feel like getting hung up on it.

Take a look at some Brink screenshots, then come back and tell us what a horrible game it looks like. Should be a lot of fun for the rest of us.

Brink's designs actually work quite a lot better than the shrunken heads do. But since your interpretation of this conversation is that "I think Human Revolution is a horrible-looking game", then you're clearly in way over your head here.

For the record, I love the way this game looks, and have said so many, many times. That doesn't mean there aren't faults that injure my artistic sensibilities.

jtr7
18th Sep 2010, 04:49
Since the arguing is really about arguing to fill in the time and stimulate, and only briefly is the topic the point, heh heh: Who the hell likes everything all the time? Quite a bit of what a person likes or does not like has nothing to do with choice, and then it gets more complex as thousands of different social pressures are added, changes in brain chemistry and the architecture of the brain through growth and loss. Either one dislikes something because they are just hardwired to not find it pleasant, or there was some kind of trauma or negative stimulus that effectively reprogrammed the brain, or the dislike is due to a third factor, like allergies can cause someone to dislike something that they otherwise would.

Elongated necks with small heads on tall bodies just stands out as freakish and takes some doing to ignore for some. Hardwired. There was a decision behind it. Barrett, at least, looks like he just got carried away with augs like a lot of people do with tattoos or plastic surgery, and it's just hard to ignore the fact the envelope was pushed too far for the mind to accept.

Pinky_Powers
18th Sep 2010, 05:04
I was looking at the Gameplay Trailer again, and Tong is a fine rendering of human proportions. So apparently, this problem is not all-consuming of the game design; which is great news for me.

http://dxhr.nanoaugur.net/dx3-screenshot31.jpg

H.D.Case
18th Sep 2010, 16:03
Putting aside the proportions issue (although if everything is golden, I would expect the Greek [and Renaissance!] "golden ratio" in character design ;) ), what really bothers me are the enemies' S&M gimp suits (or at least masks). Come on!

Angel-A
18th Sep 2010, 16:34
Rule of Cool, here: The characters are given exagerated features because it just looks better.

What would be realistic attractive proportions are over-blown, making them all too good-looking to be real, et cetera, et cetera... It's not at all realistic, and perhap repulsive if you tried to imagine such proportions in real-life, but it's very run-of-the-mill for a lot of media to make things look excessively-and unrealistically-good.

3nails4you
18th Sep 2010, 16:59
I think we are all overlooking the very obvious here, and that is freaky voodoo magic.

TrickyVein
18th Sep 2010, 17:09
^^ Case in point, here's (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=111787) a bit where you can read senior character-artist Kam Yu talk about the concept and creation of Lady Croft.

jtr7
18th Sep 2010, 19:10
Rule of Cool, here: The characters are given exagerated features because it just looks better.

What would be realistic attractive proportions are over-blown, making them all too good-looking to be real, et cetera, et cetera... It's not at all realistic, and perhap repulsive if you tried to imagine such proportions in real-life, but it's very run-of-the-mill for a lot of media to make things look excessively-and unrealistically-good.

Except when it doesn't look cool or good, just weird. What looks cool and good about these models are not the proportions.

Pinky_Powers
18th Sep 2010, 21:18
Shrinking heads is NOT an idealized style. It's just f**king weird. And without variety, small, fat, thin, long-faced, wide-faced, you've shot yourself in the foot artistically.

xsamitt
18th Sep 2010, 22:17
Shrinking heads is NOT an idealized style. It's just f**king weird. And without variety, small, fat, thin, long-faced, wide-faced, you've shot yourself in the foot artistically.

I agree...I want my humans to look human....and the creatures to look like creatures....It is disconcerting to see abnormal specked people.

hem dazon 90
18th Sep 2010, 23:06
see this complaint is why we need more games like brink

jtr7
18th Sep 2010, 23:23
The complaint isn't so bad until the opposition jumps in and acts like they can't comprehend a common normal mental process even they do on a daily basis, applied to hundreds of things. Just voicing it seems like an exaggeration, and then the opposition adds their own exaggeration to it.

Dead-Eye
18th Sep 2010, 23:33
Rule of Cool, here: The characters are given exagerated features because it just looks better.

What would be realistic attractive proportions are over-blown, making them all too good-looking to be real, et cetera, et cetera... It's not at all realistic, and perhap repulsive if you tried to imagine such proportions in real-life, but it's very run-of-the-mill for a lot of media to make things look excessively-and unrealistically-good.

It's ture because we haven't seen any fat people yet... and we probably never will!


I was looking at the Gameplay Trailer again, and Tong is a fine rendering of human proportions.

First I don't think that's Tong. Second isn't he suppose to be a short Asian? So if he is normal that just means that he's suppose to be short.

Also I didn't notice this until the OP pointed it out... but I only kinda see it.

Edit: OK now I see it. Yeah it looks like the need to make everyone's head a little bit bigger.

rubiomhs
19th Sep 2010, 01:02
when even herschel walker with his gigantic body doesn't have such a small head you know something wrong with your art direction:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=herschel%20walker&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1038&bih=787

also, exaggerated proportions are one thing, but giraffe proportions are another. they don't look better, period. even some of the most outlandish anime characters don't have such small heads. please look at the screenshot i provided again. some of the weirdest artist have the sense to keep the hands smaller than the head.

this is a video game, not picasso. i see it more as an interactive movie or comic book rather than an abstract piece of art.

once again, most people are just utterly worthless when it comes to anatomy. that is why i'll probably never convince any of you.

worst part of it is that the concept art looked incredible, too bad the character modeler failed at capturing that.

3nails4you
19th Sep 2010, 01:20
Or maybe it's a clever plot device, wherein we discover that Transhumanism shrinks head size.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9211/lolwuthead.jpg

TrickyVein
19th Sep 2010, 01:54
once again, most people are just utterly worthless when it comes to anatomy. that is why i'll probably never convince any of you.

This is a community. You're not doing a real great job here. We're not the ones you have to convince. You certainly don't have to convince me at least.

simulacra
19th Sep 2010, 17:27
I still can't see what's wrong with the characters, they look like guys look when they're fit, and if the guards in the game are said to be recruited from the military this was doubly true.

Shralla
19th Sep 2010, 19:25
Don't throw the "photo-realism" card at me! All good artists can work within any style and still keep fundamentals like proportions, anatomy and diversity as a principle. Even the most stylized cartoon can keep a 7-8 head-body ratio for the average male character.

But in all likelihood, they don't, and there's no reason for them to.

rubiomhs
23rd Sep 2010, 08:01
I still can't see what's wrong with the characters, they look like guys look when they're fit, and if the guards in the game are said to be recruited from the military this was doubly true.

i've noticed a lot of the weird character proportions may be due to camera angle. however, based on analysis of all the recent footage and screenshots, it is clear that many of the characters, although not as freakish as i used to believe, still have very disproportioned bodies. this is most evident in the video featuring dancing in club hive. notice how the gyrating women look like giants that are literally pear shaped? they have huge long legs and a mid section, but a tiny head.

looking at the character concept art, it's hard to fathom how it went from slightly idealized figures to the abstract looking creatures in the game.

Tecman
23rd Sep 2010, 09:57
First I don't think that's Tong.
Actually, if you've seen either the leaked footage or the PAX 2010 playthrough and paid attention to what the Radiator Armour guy said in their dialogue ("This isn't a social call, Tong!"), then you'd know that - yes that is actually Tong Se Hong.

rubiomhs
23rd Sep 2010, 10:07
http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/11/10007/Heng_Sha_street.jpg

notice the legs of the prostitute on the left. it's so stretched that all of the details normally associated with it, like the curvature of the muscles is lost. notice how the upper and lower legs join as well. like a plastic cone.

i'm sure the character modelers have 3dsmax or maya. just take those models and bones, and use the scale tool on them.

Pinky_Powers
23rd Sep 2010, 10:33
Thanks Tecman, I had forgotten about that post.

Yes, it's really Tong. :)

Mindmute
23rd Sep 2010, 11:33
Thanks Tecman, I had forgotten about that post.

Yes, it's really Tong. :)

I'd like to think the DX universe is big enough to allow to different people have the same name though, so it might noe be our Tong..
Do we even know if Tong was Tracer Tong's real name, by the way? :scratch:

Pinky_Powers
23rd Sep 2010, 12:23
I'd like to think the DX universe is big enough to allow to different people have the same name though, so it might noe be our Tong..
Do we even know if Tong was Tracer Tong's real name, by the way? :scratch:

No one believes the owner of the Hive is Tracer Tong. But we're all pretty sure it's a family member.

Red
23rd Sep 2010, 13:00
Since the Deus Ex Tong doesn't have any visible mechanical augs, I doubt it's the same person from both games... Also, how old would the guy be in IW then, first appearing as grey-haired and gray-mustached guy in 2027 and then reappearing later in 207x or whatever IW was set in... (couldn't bother to check the year).

Pinky_Powers
23rd Sep 2010, 13:29
They look nothing alike, but they do both have very distinct birthmarks on their faces.

http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/deusex/darkage/1.jpg

http://dxhr.nanoaugur.net/dx3-screenshot31.jpg

El_Bel
23rd Sep 2010, 14:31
And Tong Se Hong has a Red Arrow in his face. Maybe Red Arrow started as a Shanghai triad and later moved to Hong Kong for whatever reason.

Quicksilver_502
23rd Sep 2010, 17:02
i can't really see it. however, i'm sure people will have different body ratios, like some fat guys or whatever.

AlexOfSpades
23rd Sep 2010, 17:12
The red arrow is indeed there, damn well noticed El Bel!

Nice!

Well DX always had people with different body ratios

Pinky_Powers
23rd Sep 2010, 17:38
Well DX always had people with different body ratios

And now its got a world of tiny head people. :hmm:

Ace catch on the Red Arrow, El_Bel. I never noticed the mark had a recognizable shape.

AlexOfSpades
23rd Sep 2010, 18:21
There's a good side on our extreme critics.

We're forcing EM to make a perfect game

Kodaemon
23rd Sep 2010, 18:34
As if our criticism has any effect on what they do :hmm:

Xenoc
23rd Sep 2010, 18:44
This thread = FAIL

KSingh77
23rd Sep 2010, 18:59
They're so tall because rubiomhs is short.

El_Bel
23rd Sep 2010, 19:02
Ace catch on the Red Arrow, El_Bel. I never noticed the mark had a recognizable shape.

Seriously? I never posted it before because i thought that everybody noticed it! :D

Mindmute
23rd Sep 2010, 19:13
This thread = FAIL

Care to elaborate on why you think that?

Esnuk
23rd Sep 2010, 19:34
As if our criticism has any effect on what they do :hmm:

Some time ago, where I live, was sent a beautiful advertisement in which a sprightly old man answered the phone and said smiling: Optimism is the fragrance of life! Optimism flies! Why do not you try yourself to feel this perfume and reflect it in this forum? :) No offense, though. ;)

rubiomhs
23rd Sep 2010, 20:19
i can't really see it. however, i'm sure people will have different body ratios, like some fat guys or whatever.

the brain has to be a certain size to control various parts of the body. that's why tall people have larger heads because their motor cortex is larger.

the problem is really about ratio. normal human head to body ratio, regardless of height, is usually 1:6.5. like i said before, artists idealize this to be 1:7(true for the deux ex concept art). but deus ex seems to have taken this to an extreme in-game with 1:10 characters and beyond.

rubiomhs
23rd Sep 2010, 20:39
They're so tall because rubiomhs is short.

i'm 6 feet and 175lbs. my head to body ratio is something like 1:7. the average human height is 5'8 last i heard.

Dead-Eye
23rd Sep 2010, 21:24
Actually, if you've seen either the leaked footage or the PAX 2010 playthrough and paid attention to what the Radiator Armour guy said in their dialogue ("This isn't a social call, Tong!"), then you'd know that - yes that is actually Tong Se Hong.

I just looked over it again. Yeah, I thought the hacker was Tong but I misinterpreted the dialog. Guess that means we won't get a cameo of Tracer Tong.

Jerion
23rd Sep 2010, 21:29
Looks a little stylized, but doesn't bother me.

Angel-A
24th Sep 2010, 00:25
They look nothing alike, but they do both have very distinct birthmarks on their faces.

http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/deusex/darkage/1.jpg

I always thought that was a big scar (from triad gang wars?). :scratch:

AlexOfSpades
24th Sep 2010, 00:27
I always thought it was just badly created texture.



Really.


Or then he just doesnt take a shower.

Oh you naughty Tong!

There's really no shower in the entire Hong Kong if you check it up i think

OwlSolar
24th Sep 2010, 00:58
There's a good side on our extreme critics.

We're forcing EM to make what we think is a perfect game.

You made a typo. I fixed it for you. :)

Angel-A
24th Sep 2010, 01:14
I always thought it was just badly created texture.



Really.


Or then he just doesnt take a shower.

Oh you naughty Tong!

There's really no shower in the entire Hong Kong if you check it up i think
Maggie Chow has a shower.

But this brings us to another point: in all of Area 51 I never saw a toilet...

AlexOfSpades
24th Sep 2010, 01:35
Oh so that's why Maggie Chow is so popular, everyone knows her. Even Paul took "a shower" at her apartment!

Area 51... that Ocean Base too, i think?

Funny how they forget those small details.

Now really, imagine all the trouble if you're a scientist downstairs.

Or then you can just do it in that Gray's room.

But maybe the radiation would have.... side effects on any exposed... organ.

Angel-A
24th Sep 2010, 01:52
Oh so that's why Maggie Chow is so popular, everyone knows her. Even Paul took "a shower" at her apartment!

I heard something somewhere at some point there is a dev comment in DX's conv files (or... something...) stating Chow never actually knew Paul; 'tis another untruth of hers. The MJ12 troops informed her of J.C.'s arrival in Hong Kong and she had prepared some lines just before he arrived at her apartment.

AlexOfSpades
24th Sep 2010, 11:22
Aw really?

And i thought she has seen Paul's augmented parts.

I really thought like "Heh, this is so dirty. This game is cool."

It was realistic, its not like your super agent brother is a saint.

Mindmute
24th Sep 2010, 16:57
Aw really?

And i thought she has seen Paul's augmented parts.

I really thought like "Heh, this is so dirty. This game is cool."

It was realistic, its not like your super agent brother is a saint.

Well he did have a social life, based on the email from his girlfriend in NY, however I always had the feeling Maggie was BSing JC to gain his trust. Just never trusted that woman...

TrickyVein
24th Sep 2010, 20:23
There are very few women who you can trust in DX as it turns out.

Can't trust Sandra Renton not to get into trouble with drug-dealers.

Can't trust the one at UNATCO for stealing from the armory.

Can't trust Tiffany Savage to keep herself alive, or at least not get caught.

Maggie chow is treacherous, so is her maid.

Nicolette lies to you the first time you meet her.

rubiomhs
24th Sep 2010, 21:32
the gameplay itself needs to be extremely impressive for me to overlook the weird character proportions. i used to say i'll buy this game only when it's on sale for 30 dollars or less on steam, now i'm starting to think maybe i won't buy it at all. i'm sure a lot of potential customers feel this way.

OwlSolar
25th Sep 2010, 06:06
It doesn't surprise me that people would consider this as that big of a deal. Heck, I didn't notice it at all.

Then again, to each his own, I suppose.

rubiomhs
25th Sep 2010, 06:10
I didn't notice it at all.

yeah, not a lot of people do. i am so grateful for my spatial acuity.

OwlSolar
25th Sep 2010, 06:11
Nice, man. I'm jealous.

jtr7
25th Sep 2010, 06:21
It doesn't surprise me that people would consider this as that big of a deal. Heck, I didn't notice it at all.

Then again, to each his own, I suppose.

It only sounds like a big deal because it was put into words, compounded. The issue is the same as how one reacts to a sudden bad smell or taste or sound or touch, only this is with the eyes. The reaction is separate from attitude, and the attitude comes from not liking the negative stimulation of the senses, put into words, which are perceived as overkill for the time taken to express it. Yet, those who give the one expressing the reaction into words are doing the same thing with the words, and compounding the overkill and taking it into true overkill territory, which the remainder of the reactions on both sides are really about, not the thing that set it off, anymore, but it still gets all the credit.

OwlSolar
26th Sep 2010, 06:30
So you're saying that it wouldn't be overkill if everyone just ignores the topic? I guess that makes sense.

AJacobson
26th Sep 2010, 06:36
It only sounds like a big deal because it was put into words, compounded. The issue is the same as how one reacts to a sudden bad smell or taste or sound or touch, only this is with the eyes. The reaction is separate from attitude, and the attitude comes from not liking the negative stimulation of the senses, put into words, which are perceived as overkill for the time taken to express it. Yet, those who give the one expressing the reaction into words are doing the same thing with the words, and compounding the overkill and taking it into true overkill territory, which the remainder of the reactions on both sides are really about, not the thing that set it off, anymore, but it still gets all the credit.

What?

OwlSolar
26th Sep 2010, 06:43
A relevant link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SesquipedalianLoquaciousness

Pinky_Powers
26th Sep 2010, 06:52
So you're saying that it wouldn't be overkill if everyone just ignores the topic? I guess that makes sense.

Or agrees, and says "you're right, those heads are small." :D

AJacobson
26th Sep 2010, 06:53
A relevant link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SesquipedalianLoquaciousness

Lol! My sentiments exactly.

OwlSolar
26th Sep 2010, 07:59
Or agrees, and says "you're right, those heads are small." :D

You're right, those heads are small.

Hey, that was easy. Are we done now?

Pinky_Powers
26th Sep 2010, 08:45
I thought we've been done since yesterday.

hem dazon 90
26th Sep 2010, 16:10
A relevant link:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SesquipedalianLoquaciousness


That site is a cesspool of furries and otaku.

Kodaemon
26th Sep 2010, 16:14
Oh shut up already. I don't know what sort of traumatizing experience you had with tvtropes, and I don't care. That site is the most fun I've had in years.

hem dazon 90
26th Sep 2010, 17:26
Oh shut up already. I don't know what sort of traumatizing experience you had with tvtropes, and I don't care. That site is the most fun I've had in years.

Only if you're a furry or to quote a friend of mine "a super positive ass clown"

Kodaemon
26th Sep 2010, 17:49
Well, I'm sure as hell not a furry (also, I haven't seen any signs of the site being overrun by furries), so I must be a super positive ass clown, whatever that means.

hem dazon 90
26th Sep 2010, 18:06
Well, I'm sure as hell not a furry (also, I haven't seen any signs of the site being overrun by furries), so I must be a super positive ass clown, whatever that means.

On that site you can't criticize anything. Take for example the Sonichu page. It removed the links to the CWCiki and all insults directed at Christian Weston Chandler. And the forum is overrun by furries just say something bad about furries and see what happens. Also on the Weaboo thing, look up some random animu to be consumed by weird yoai fans and then look at the page for something that actually matters i.e the film Lawrence of Arabia. What has the bigger page ? The final straw with the site came when I was bringing up these criticisms and the collective masses just said "Y SO SRS BRO? TV TROEPS IS TEH AWSUM WINRARS!!11 WE LIEK TOTTALLY ARE TEH SHIZ EVEN THO WE BURST A BLOOD VESSLE WHENEVER SOMEONE CRITICIZES US!111!


You're the first fan of the place that hasn't used such ridiculous arguments.

jtr7
26th Sep 2010, 18:25
You're right, those heads are small.

Hey, that was easy. Are we done now?

The original topic is done with. Like I said, it's been about attitude and ego more than anything.

Kodaemon
26th Sep 2010, 18:33
Eh, on the Sonichu thing - you know, the whole phenomenon just baffles me. Sure, the guy is obviously bonkers and his stuff is vomit-inducing, but why dwell on it? It's mass-trolling of a single person. Not exactly healthy if you ask me. And even if it does turn you on for some reason, there are places better suited to doing that than TVT. There's enough 4chans and Encyclopaedia Dramaticas on the net, don't need to fill every site with raw sewage.

Haven't been to the forums, so I can't comment on the situation with furries there. All I know is that I've barely seen anything related to furries while browsing the actual wiki.

About the anime thing - well, it's a user-created site. If you want to see the Lawrence of Arabia page bigger, do contribute :p. There's naturally going to be more rabid anime fans than Lawrence of Arabia fans, so the discrepancy isn't really the site's fault. Heck, the first thing you see when you go to TVT is a disclaimer about it being "a buttload more informal" than Wikipedia and that there is "No Such Thing As Notability"

OwlSolar
26th Sep 2010, 19:50
That site is a cesspool of furries and otaku.

My point is still valid. Who really cares what kind of people are there?


The original topic is done with. Like I said, it's been about attitude and ego more than anything.
Might as well keep going then, if for no other reason than to be consistent with the rest of the forum.

Mindmute
26th Sep 2010, 20:05
Might as well keep going then, if for no other reason than to be consistent with the rest of the forum.

Without trying to be negative here, but you've been critical of the forum itself every other post despite the fact you're still rather new here. Instead of being taken aback and resorting to generalising a whole forum based on a the actions of a few members you can just chill and discuss things on your terms.

No one's forcing you repply to those people and there is such a thing as an ignore list!


Short version: Chill the hell down, dude.

OwlSolar
26th Sep 2010, 20:16
Maybe I should have said "consistent with most members here" instead. I just want to fit in. :(
But yeah, I have been using the ignore list. Works wonders. Anyone put me on theirs yet? :)


despite the fact you're still rather new here.
What does that have to do with anything? New people aren't allowed to be critical? If that's the case, I've been lurking for a while before I joined anyway.
I personally feel that I have good reason to be criticizing people. It's part of my personality.



However, you're right. It's unfair for me to judge the entire forum based on a few idiots. There are a good number of decent, rational people here, and I do want to acknowledge them for that.

Mindmute
26th Sep 2010, 20:18
What does that have to do with anything? I personally feel that I have good reason to be criticizing people. It's part of my personality, anyway.

That has to do with the fact that you're still going on first impressions but from people who are likely just knee-jerking at every little detail due to the lack of any new info about the game.
You're also probably seeing the most extreme opinions, because the rest of us have already discussed those things to exhaustion and tend to steer clear of them now, that's what it has to do with ;)

OwlSolar
26th Sep 2010, 20:21
"First Impressions?" Again, I've been lurking for a while.

Look, as you can probably gather from my posts, I don't really care what the opinions are. It's just that some people are being extremely irrational and tossing fallacies left and right.

Mindmute
26th Sep 2010, 20:27
"First Impressions?" Again, I've been lurking for a while.

Look, as you can probably gather from my posts, I don't really care what the opinions are. It's just that some people are being extremely irrational and tossing fallacies left and right.

Fair enough, however, like I said, most of that stems from the fact that people have discussed most of these things to death, the lack of info tends to make some nitpick about any and all details just for the hell of it.

(Though I will grant you that both on the positive and negative sides of this forum there are some people who simply jump into threads to drop the odd one-liner or state opinion as fact and then bugger off away or back into the one-liners at the slightest hint of arguement against them)

OwlSolar
26th Sep 2010, 20:32
Alright, fair enough. I guess that explains this thread. :p Honestly though, I nitpick all the time as well, so I shouldn't be complaining.

Yeah, those are the type of people I tend to put on my ignore list.

(This is getting off topic, and there's not much more left to say. Maybe we should continue this through PMs, if at all).

Mindmute
26th Sep 2010, 20:35
(This is getting off topic, and there's not much more left to say. Maybe we should continue this through PMs, if at all).

Nah I'm good.



Back on topic:

Yeah, the body proportions are way off, however the game isn't trying to be ultra-realistic as far as visuals, it seems more stylised than anything, so for me it won't detract too much from the experience.

I usually only nitpick about this type of thing when the characters looking as photorealistic as possible is part of the intended design.

BigBoss
3rd Oct 2010, 08:47
This is one of those things that can't be unseen. Thanks.

Rockn-Roll
3rd Oct 2010, 17:28
I really didn't notice, but yeah...the head to body proportion is indeed non-typical. But, in my opinion it's not unrealistic...perhaps because my head to body proportion is about 1:8 and I'm only 5'-10". To be honest...now that you mention it most games actually seem to have huge heads compared to mine, but does seem to be what I see in the real world...most people do really have larger heads.

However, I don't think it makes them look tall at all. In fact, in some of the environments, like the one the OP presented, the characters look too short for the environment. But, that's not going to effect my enjoyment of the game. If anything it will make head shots harder which is awesome...I'm looking forward to the challenge.

VectorM
3rd Oct 2010, 17:50
This thread is still alive, seriously!?

hem dazon 90
3rd Oct 2010, 18:17
^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RthZgszykLs

Alai
7th Oct 2010, 00:49
I'll rather have this than those monsterously wide proportioned soldiers in Gears of War, etc.

Dead-Eye
7th Oct 2010, 03:34
"First Impressions?" Again, I've been lurking for a while.

Look, as you can probably gather from my posts, I don't really care what the opinions are. It's just that some people are being extremely irrational and tossing fallacies left and right.
The heads are small!



(Though I will grant you that both on the positive and negative sides of this forum there are some people who simply jump into threads to drop the odd one-liner or state opinion as fact and then bugger off away or back into the one-liners at the slightest hint of arguement against them)
Arguments are pointless. Ether the argument never starts because both parties are mature enough to agree to disagree or the person who is arguing with you is just trolling and will never agree with you. So what's the point? Getting mad over this stuff is just a wast of time.


This is one of those things that can't be unseen. Thanks.
I tried really hard and forgot about it. However I really hope they fix this.


I'll rather have this than those monsterously wide proportioned soldiers in Gears of War, etc.
lol, I agree.

Man I wonder how many ignore lists I am on.

OwlSolar
7th Oct 2010, 06:29
Argument isn't the right word. I'm pretty sure he meant something closer to "civilized debate." :)

...Although we don't exactly have much of that, either.

Anyway, no matter how many ignore lists you're on, I bet I'm on more. :D

Pinky_Powers
7th Oct 2010, 07:23
Man I wonder how many ignore lists I am on.

What? I can't hear you!

;)

Nah, I only have two souls on my Ignore List. And at least one of them is currently on a Temp Ban I believe. And I'm proud to say I turned my back to his existence before he blew himself up with the Mods. :D

TrickyVein
7th Oct 2010, 12:15
I have 20-30 people on my list. There are actually only three people whose messages I read.

Red
7th Oct 2010, 12:49
I wonder if I'm one of them :P

Red
8th Oct 2010, 12:01
Guess not. Bastard. >:|

AlexOfSpades
8th Oct 2010, 12:25
Guess not. Bastard. >:|

Lmao!

No one is in my ignore list. (:

I wonder if i'm ignored by someone. D:

Nah who cares. Does it really matters if an annonymous from an internet forum ignores what you post? Really.

oxoxoxo
10th Oct 2010, 04:37
hiiiiii

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/2021/1263911408459.gif

Tehmk
13th Oct 2010, 16:36
Maybe so, but I just ignore it. After seeing Brink everything else looks alright. Lol.

AlexOfSpades
13th Oct 2010, 16:47
hiiiiii



heeeeellloooooo ~

LeMoN_LiMe
13th Oct 2010, 17:04
omg the game is ruined for me everyone is huge. Im never ever ever ever ever ever ever going to play it now....ever -_-

Worrying about the wrong things here dude

JCpies
13th Oct 2010, 17:49
I think oxoxoxo is a troll account created by a big member here...

On a sidenote, I had no idea you could post Gifs here. K-on meets Deus Ex.... hmmm

rubiomhs
28th Oct 2010, 15:22
i will not buy this game unless you change the anatomical proportions of the characters such that their head to body ratio is at most 1:8. any more than that means no sale.

many potential customers share my sentiments about your art style.

thank you.

AlexOfSpades
28th Oct 2010, 15:36
Eidos,

I will buy the game because i think that Deus Ex is not all about head sizes.

Thank you,


- Mr. Spades

NKD
28th Oct 2010, 15:39
I will not buy this game unless the heads are extremely small. Many potential customers share my sentiments about your art style.

Thank you.

Now we shall see whose empty threats mean more to Eidos!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
28th Oct 2010, 15:54
i will not buy this game unless you change the anatomical proportions of the characters such that their head to body ratio is at most 1:8. any more than that means no sale.

many potential customers share my sentiments about your art style.

thank you.

Merged your new thread into existing discussion.

Angel-A
28th Oct 2010, 21:41
Derr Eidos,

I think they look fine.


i will not buy this game unless you change the anatomical proportions of the characters such that their head to body ratio is at most 1:8. any more than that means no sale.

many potential customers share my sentiments about your art style.

thank you.
I lol'd

Pinky_Powers
28th Oct 2010, 22:23
i will not buy this game unless you change the anatomical proportions of the characters such that their head to body ratio is at most 1:8. any more than that means no sale.

many potential customers share my sentiments about your art style.

thank you.

:lmao:

The head size is troubling, but in the grand scheme of things, it's one of the most trivial things you could conjure. In no way should this affect sales... even yours.

OwlSolar
28th Oct 2010, 23:48
...Wait, what? I thought he was kidding. :scratch:

Still though, if it really bothers him that much, it is his money.

Pinky_Powers
29th Oct 2010, 01:27
...Wait, what? I thought he was kidding. :scratch:

Yeah, you're probably right. It's sometimes hard to tell.

If a member doesn't post enough, we can't get a feel for his/her personality, and sarcasm is more or less lost.

IdiotInAJeep
29th Oct 2010, 04:50
i will not buy this game unless you change the anatomical proportions of the characters such that their head to body ratio is at most 1:8. any more than that means no sale.

many potential customers share my sentiments about your art style.

thank you.

Cool story bro.:cool:

rubiomhs
29th Oct 2010, 21:27
Merged your new thread into existing discussion.

thank you.

MechBFP
30th Oct 2010, 16:01
This thread is a perfect example of how self-entitled and arrogant people can get on the internet.

rubiomhs
31st Oct 2010, 03:39
if you had an eye for detail and any knowledge about basic anatomy, you'd be irked by this as well. needless to say, most people are fine with stylized characters that look like cartoons. i never quite got that.

seems people just accept whatever they are given without question. sure, i understand this might be a game, but hopefully you guys don't have the same attitudes when it comes to other aspects of your life.

thank you for reading this, i respect you all. bye now.

pringlepower
31st Oct 2010, 04:19
if you had an eye for detail and any knowledge about basic anatomy, you'd be irked by this as well. needless to say, most people are fine with stylized characters that look like cartoons. i never quite got that.

seems people just accept whatever they are given without question. sure, i understand this might be a game, but hopefully you guys don't have the same attitudes when it comes to other aspects of your life.

thank you for reading this, i respect you all. bye now.

A game where a man with robotic sword-arms, inexplicable retracting glasses, and floral pattern trenchcoats having a small head isn't a huge problem.

rokstrombo
31st Oct 2010, 04:51
This thread is offensive to people with really small heads. Like me. You bastard.

Pinky_Powers
31st Oct 2010, 07:17
Even a nice stylized cartoon looks wrong when the head is too small for no reason at all.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f310/Pinky_Powers/Bat608_2-SH.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f310/Pinky_Powers/Bat608_2.jpg

:)

IdiotInAJeep
31st Oct 2010, 07:23
The internet is serious business.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Oct 2010, 09:01
A simple explanation. The art style is probably a symbolic tribute to renaissance art as it commonly depicted exaggerated distortions of the human anatomy, characterized by elongated bodies with small heads.

Pinky_Powers
31st Oct 2010, 09:18
A simple explanation. The art style is probably a symbolic tribute to renaissance art as it commonly depicted exaggerated distortions of the human anatomy, characterized by elongated bodies with small heads.

:confused:

I'm not a student of art history, so I don't know much about renaissance painters. Do you have any examples of this?

xsamitt
31st Oct 2010, 17:00
Even a nice stylized cartoon looks wrong when the head is too small for no reason at all.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f310/Pinky_Powers/Bat608_2-SH.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f310/Pinky_Powers/Bat608_2.jpg

:)

It's all about proportion.......I;m sure EM must be aware of this.I'm sure they will address it.At least I hope so.

Shralla
31st Oct 2010, 17:29
:confused:

I'm not a student of art history, so I don't know much about renaissance painters. Do you have any examples of this?

Like everything that was ever drawn about people in the Renaissance ever. The Renaissance was when they really figured out how to portray the human body from all angles in a still, 2D picture. Most of the techniques associated with portraying a human body from an angle or odd point of view involved things like foreshortening, where the whole body is just mashed down into a small space to provide the illusion of looking at it from an extreme angle. Other things they might do is enlarge or shrink body parts in order to give them a sense of being nearer or farther away, to help enforce the sense of depth.

Really it's all stuff we take for granted in art and drawing these days, but back then it was revolutionary.

Notice how small his legs and feet are in comparison to his torso and head:

http://www.jim3dlong.com/1500_Andrea_Mantegna_Dead_Christ-wr400.jpg

Even statues weren't perfect recreations of the human body, especially large ones that were designed to be looked UP at, such as Michelangelo's famous portrayal of David. Check out how almost comedically oversized his hands are, and how ridiculously thick his neck is.

http://www.florence-italy-apartments.com/images/Florence-David-Michelangelo.jpg

Alpha7
31st Oct 2010, 18:27
"Why are they so tall, so charismatic, or so sinewy"
Because customers dislike to personify or challenge fat ugly dwarfish characters

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Oct 2010, 19:13
:confused:

I'm not a student of art history, so I don't know much about renaissance painters. Do you have any examples of this?

Certainly not an expert on renaissance myself, Pinky. :o
But El Greco definitely had a tendency for elongated bodies/necks and small heads. Google the "Resurrection of Christ" and "St Sebastian", as examples. Just took a look myself and would suggest you try Bronzino's "Laura Battiferri", and Parmigianino's "Madonna and Child with Angels", (also called "Madonna of the Long Neck").

Kodaemon
31st Oct 2010, 20:32
Notice how small his legs and feet are in comparison to his torso and head:

http://www.jim3dlong.com/1500_Andrea_Mantegna_Dead_Christ-wr400.jpg

On this note, imagine Adam with the proportions of Aris Kindt as depicted by Rembrandt :nut:

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7834/nicolaestulp.jpg

OwlSolar
31st Oct 2010, 21:27
if you had an eye for detail and any knowledge about basic anatomy, you'd be irked by this as well. needless to say, most people are fine with stylized characters that look like cartoons. i never quite got that.

seems people just accept whatever they are given without question. sure, i understand this might be a game, but hopefully you guys don't have the same attitudes when it comes to other aspects of your life.
Actually, I do have an eye for detail and knowledge of basic anatomy. This doesn't bother me at all. And yeah, some people do like stylized characters. It's their personal taste, but obviously, I don't need to explain that to you. :)

And it's one thing to not just accept what you're given; it's something completely different to throw what amounts to a hissy fit over a completely insignificant minor detail.
By the way, this isn't actually my attitude in life. What I actually do is to nitpick over the stupidest things in everything. My friends never offer me anything anymore. :)

rubiomhs
3rd Nov 2010, 07:59
A simple explanation. The art style is probably a symbolic tribute to renaissance art as it commonly depicted exaggerated distortions of the human anatomy, characterized by elongated bodies with small heads.

why focus on mannerism only? the most recognizable renaissance pieces like the statue of david had an enlarged head, not shrunken.

i think they're simply trying to do that trendy manhwa/anime thing where everybody looks like basketball players with broad football player shoulders. looks cheap.

OwlSolar
3rd Nov 2010, 08:02
I think the government made the plague on purpose to get rid of the population growth.

Mindmute
3rd Nov 2010, 13:08
I think the government made the plague on purpose to get rid of the population growth.

Fun pun.

Shralla
3rd Nov 2010, 17:27
why focus on mannerism only? the most recognizable renaissance pieces like the statue of david had an enlarged head, not shrunken.

Yeah, because as I explained in my earlier post, it's a large statue designed to be seen from below. The large head was necessary to maintain visual proportions from the intended viewing angle. Paintings are a different matter, and if you look back through history, you'll find plenty of things distorted in different ways than the statue of David.


i think they're simply trying to do that trendy manhwa/anime thing where everybody looks like basketball players with broad football player shoulders. looks cheap.

I don't even know what that means. Since when does anybody in anime have a small head or broad shoulders? You must be watching a totally different set of animation than I've seen. And how does it look "cheap"?

Kodaemon
3rd Nov 2010, 18:11
I do know what he means. Check out X 1999 for an example.

rubiomhs
3rd Nov 2010, 20:21
Fun pun.

that's not a pun. you probably mean alliteration. but even that's not really it. plague on purpose, maybe. but the other p words are too far apart.

rubiomhs
3rd Nov 2010, 20:24
Yeah, because as I explained in my earlier post, it's a large statue designed to be seen from below. The large head was necessary to maintain visual proportions from the intended viewing angle. Paintings are a different matter, and if you look back through history, you'll find plenty of things distorted in different ways than the statue of David.



I don't even know what that means. Since when does anybody in anime have a small head or broad shoulders? You must be watching a totally different set of animation than I've seen. And how does it look "cheap"?

either way, renaissance art is known for its developments in perspective accuracy, not stylized mannerist stuff. to be honest, looks more like artist was out of it and was watching hentai when he made the characters.

lets face it, the renaissance allusions don't really work and are pretty pretentious, one has to admit.

Ilves
3rd Nov 2010, 20:27
I refuse to believe that the (mildly) weird proportions are a conscious design choice, let alone a reference to renaissance art. :rolleyes:

As far as nitpicking goes, I'm much more at odds with how few games get shoulders & backs right.

Shralla
3rd Nov 2010, 20:58
lets face it, the renaissance allusions don't really work and are pretty pretentious, one has to admit.

After all, we've all played through the game so we have any basis in anything at all to say that.

AlexOfSpades
3rd Nov 2010, 21:00
This reminds me of how ridiculously cartoonish the Fable characters looked.

Actually my friends said "Since you like Oblivion, you totally should try Fable. Its like oblivion, but ten times better."

Then i tried and couldnt play it more than thirty minutes. The characters destroyed the proportion.

But i dont think that DXHR has the same proportion problem.

Kodaemon
3rd Nov 2010, 22:09
It's impossible to argue the proportions in Fable were unintended though.

As for DX:HR, though rubiomhs is taking this way too seriously, attributing the proportion discrepancies to the renaissance style really is quite ridiculous. On the other hand, we do have word from the devs that they're aiming for a graphic novel style.

Dead-Eye
4th Nov 2010, 05:25
Every time I notice the head problem I think of this now.

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9211/lolwuthead.jpg
Thanks. lol.

Pinky_Powers
4th Nov 2010, 07:08
^... Well, that's pretty much what we're dealing with.

It's a good thing we won't have the crazy scope-drifting from the original Deus Ex. We'd never get a headshot! :D

avenging_teabag
4th Nov 2010, 07:11
I can't believe this thread is still going.

Kodaemon
4th Nov 2010, 08:59
^... Well, that's pretty much what we're dealing with.

It's a good thing we won't have the crazy scope-drifting from the original Deus Ex. We'd never get a headshot! :D

The funny thing about the drifting scope is that it doesn't actually drift randomly, it has a pre-set route :D

nakedhand
4th Nov 2010, 11:58
i will not buy this game unless you change the anatomical proportions of the characters such that their head to body ratio is at most 1:8. any more than that means no sale.

many potential customers share my sentiments about your art style.

thank you.

You can always find ten good reasons not to buy a great game.

I am all for correct proportions, but it surely will not prevent me from playing and enjoying this game. Buggy code, ugly textures and bad writing will though.

Mindmute
4th Nov 2010, 12:08
I am all for correct proportions, but it surely will not prevent me from playing and enjoying this game. Buggy code, ugly textures and bad writing will though.

In that specific order? (just curious)

anunnaki
4th Nov 2010, 21:18
I'm still going to get and hopefully love this game regardless of incorrect anatomy, but it still just seems so pointless to me. Why even take the time to do it and run the risk of having people not like the idea? I know it's a seemingly insignificant issue but I just don't get how anyone could go "O wait! I have a great idea! lets shrink there heads!" Now everyone looks like they have Micheal Jordans hands with Wee mans head.

OwlSolar
4th Nov 2010, 23:26
If there's cheat codes in the game, there should be the DK code from Goldeneye. That would solve everything. :)

anunnaki
5th Nov 2010, 02:44
Other than the "achievements cannot be made while cheats are activated." nonsense. It's all a conspiracy :mad2: this wall must not have a crack in it.

Morgan_Everett
5th Nov 2010, 18:17
You know, the people are better alimented now than 500 years ago and each generation is taller than the previous.

anunnaki
5th Nov 2010, 23:50
But do there heads shrink?

mentalkase
6th Nov 2010, 01:34
It's a very minor stylization which i'm sure was very deliberate and in keeping with the rest of their design aesthetic. I'm going to assume the professional designers and artists at EM know the correct proportions of the human body as well as anybody on these boards.

KSingh77
6th Nov 2010, 01:54
Why was Ivan Drago so tall?

Pinky_Powers
6th Nov 2010, 04:00
It's a very minor stylization which i'm sure was very deliberate and in keeping with the rest of their design aesthetic. I'm going to assume the professional designers and artists at EM know the correct proportions of the human body as well as anybody on these boards.

Itty bitty heads is not what artists do when they stylize. It's but it's fairly common when they simply screw up the proportions on accident.

mentalkase
6th Nov 2010, 04:13
I could be wrong but I don't think it's just the heads that are out of proportion, the heads are just the most obvious aspect of stylization of the figures. Regardless, it's highly unlikely a group of artists working within a large team that continually confer with each other would make a mistake like that. Surely every part of the visual design of the game is very well thought out. Just because some of us don't like it doesn't mean they didn't do it on purpose.

anunnaki
6th Nov 2010, 05:34
Yea it seems pretty deliberate to me, If we can notice the difference from screens and a single demo i'm sure they would have noticed by now if it wasn't. I just don't get how it was thought as a good idea, Usually with stylization it seems artists make the heads bigger if anything, but to each his own I guess. Just seems like a pointless risk to me, but the game still looks great none the less.

Falcon084
9th Nov 2010, 08:24
I'm six foot tall :P

rubiomhs
20th Nov 2010, 01:59
Yea it seems pretty deliberate to me, If we can notice the difference from screens and a single demo i'm sure they would have noticed by now if it wasn't. I just don't get how it was thought as a good idea, Usually with stylization it seems artists make the heads bigger if anything, but to each his own I guess. Just seems like a pointless risk to me, but the game still looks great none the less.

agreed. its' definitely a risk. i for one, will not be buying the game unless the proportions are returned to the realistic one of the original. and i know many people who agree with me. that may not seem like a lot of people, but trust me, a lot of people are sticklers for accurate proportions and head to body ratios.

might work in a fantasy game, but sci fi game set 17 years into the future? it's laughable.

Fox89
20th Nov 2010, 02:15
Oh no! The characters are slightly too tall?! I hadn't actually noticed but that's a total dealbreaker. Also, some of them have mechanical arms. That's not how mechanical arms look in real life! And Jensen's sunglasses are way wrong as well, I've never seen sunglasses like that even in the really expensive shops.

I think if you're a stickler for 'accuracy' you might want to stay out of fiction altogether, not just DX3.

Also, the 'proportions' may have been more true to reality in the original, but you could also see through the character's lips. Was that not a problem?

mentalkase
20th Nov 2010, 02:18
agreed. its' definitely a risk. i for one, will not be buying the game unless the proportions are returned to the realistic one of the original. and i know many people who agree with me. that may not seem like a lot of people, but trust me, a lot of people are sticklers for accurate proportions and head to body ratios.

might work in a fantasy game, but sci fi game set 17 years into the future? it's laughable.

What on earth does graphical stylisation have to do with the genre of a game? It's an aesthetic choice the designers have made.

There are plenty of cyberpunk sci-fi anime movies that feature slightly deformed characters. Photorealism in no way a trope of sci-fi. The developers of the game have deliberately stylised it to differentiate it from a large number of games coming out recently that are virtually indistinguishable from each other. That's a good thing if you ask me.

IOOI
20th Nov 2010, 02:42
I have to admit that Square Enix's CGI models in the trailers were very good - I liked SE's Barrett version more. I'm always wondering how it would be if Square Enix modelers and animators made all the models and animations for HR? Even losing some of the fidelity from the HQ models, I think they would be much better looking.

Here's a challenge for a co-work project: Next time Square Enix devs make the models/animations and EM devs take care of the rest of the game. How does it sound?

Pinky_Powers
20th Nov 2010, 03:00
Here's a challenge for a co-work project: Next time Square Enix devs make the models/animations and EM devs take care of the rest of the game. How does it sound?

I don't know... if they gave Square Enix that much control over the designs and animations, it probably would start to feel more like animé. ...maybe? :hmm:

IOOI
20th Nov 2010, 03:09
Concept art would still be done by EM (EM still would give orientations on the overall direction.), but 3D models and animations could be done by Square studios. It would be much more pleasing.

CallMeIshmael
20th Nov 2010, 16:02
Maybe it's the perspectives or lightings, but the guy on the picture definitely has a deflated-looking head.

rubiomhs
3rd Dec 2010, 05:12
they all do. tiny little neanderthal heads on 6'9 basketball player/football player bodies.

the art direction is incongruous with the theme and atmosphere of the game.

i once saw the female pilot concept and thought it was great, then saw a few of the security guys and still thought they were great, then saw the screenshots and realized whoever transferred them into the game had an agenda and they definitely do not want the aesthetes among us to enjoy this game.

fix it or no buy. i personally know 5 people who are distressed by this. 5 people today, 5 thousand on release day. your sales will hurt if you don't fix this. fair warning.

mentalkase
3rd Dec 2010, 06:03
they all do. tiny little neanderthal heads on 6'9 basketball player/football player bodies.

the art direction is incongruous with the theme and atmosphere of the game.

i once saw the female pilot concept and thought it was great, then saw a few of the security guys and still thought they were great, then saw the screenshots and realized whoever transferred them into the game had an agenda and they definitely do not want the aesthetes among us to enjoy this game.

fix it or no buy. i personally know 5 people who are distressed by this. 5 people today, 5 thousand on release day. your sales will hurt if you don't fix this. fair warning.

Yes EM have a set against the aesthetes. I think I read somewhere that an Aesthete once spat in David Anfossi's poutine.

neilthecellist
3rd Dec 2010, 06:11
A simple explanation. The art style is probably a symbolic tribute to renaissance art as it commonly depicted exaggerated distortions of the human anatomy, characterized by elongated bodies with small heads.

Thank you! Anyone who's taken Art History knows this. I'm surprised this thread was even made to begin with.:mad2:

mentalkase
3rd Dec 2010, 06:26
Thank you! Anyone who's taken Art History knows this. I'm surprised this thread was even made to begin with.:mad2:

That's really more mannerist than high renaissance art though. Not saying you're wrong but it's not exactly a given.

cartridge
3rd Dec 2010, 06:43
Probably an early build of the game. Plus they're wearing a lot of gear, so that could be contributing to the proportions. I honestly think it's just an early build, though. The models are low-poly, and the head mapped with low-res textures. Could be a console build, but who knows.

rubiomhs
22nd Aug 2011, 06:48
look at the concept i posted in the op. now look at the screenshots and videos that are starting to pop out now. completely disgraces the work of the concept artist.

if i ever get this game, it'll be through pirating. i ******* hate when developers try to get "creative" with crap like this.

Saerain
22nd Aug 2011, 07:34
I was amused to see a number of people saying they hadn't noticed this who have already commented on the tiny heads, since that's exactly what the OP is talking about. Good times.


Probably an early build of the game. Not that early. EM has said this hasn't changed because they noticed too late that the proportions went ‘a little bit too far.’ You can't just go back and change the fundamental proportions of models except very early in development, otherwise you get a cascade of texturing and animation tweaks that would add a ridiculous amount of time to development. Best to just own it as a stylistic choice going forward.

JCpies
22nd Aug 2011, 08:41
look at the concept i posted in the op. now look at the screenshots and videos that are starting to pop out now. completely disgraces the work of the concept artist.

if i ever get this game, it'll be through pirating. i ******* hate when developers try to get "creative" with crap like this.

You sir, are a douche.

You probably don't have any creativity or sense yourself. You probably don't realise this, but a lot of character designs in a range of media aren't perfectly proportioned.


Edit: Wait, are you saying developers shouldn't be creative. You have no idea what you're talking about.

MaceUk
22nd Aug 2011, 09:28
I have never noticed this of all the time I have spent in the game and doesn't bother me now either. Openly saying you will pirate a game is not very clever.

Ashpolt
22nd Aug 2011, 09:38
look at the concept i posted in the op. now look at the screenshots and videos that are starting to pop out now. completely disgraces the work of the concept artist.

if i ever get this game, it'll be through pirating. i ******* hate when developers try to get "creative" with crap like this.

Wow, this totally isn't just you looking for any reason, no matter how flimsy, to "justify" not paying for the game.

If you dislike the game badly enough to not buy it, simply don't play it. Using minor errors as attempted justification for piracy isn't fooling anyone.

Zorvan
22nd Aug 2011, 09:55
So basically, the first person to make a mod which resizes heads to normal proportions is going to be hailed as a god?

Charadesmith
22nd Aug 2011, 09:57
Seriously?.. I'm at a loss of words.

FatalSylence
22nd Aug 2011, 13:55
look at the concept i posted in the op. now look at the screenshots and videos that are starting to pop out now. completely disgraces the work of the concept artist.

if i ever get this game, it'll be through pirating. i ******* hate when developers try to get "creative" with crap like this.

Come on, dude. That's not cool. At least TRY to respect the amount of time the developers have put into this game.

Think about it. This is what you're saying: "Dear developers, I am going to steal a copy of your game because you made the heads too small. KTHXBAI."

Not cool... Not cool at all.

Amitush
22nd Aug 2011, 13:58
Tall is good! tall people are the first to know that its raining

FatalSylence
22nd Aug 2011, 14:01
Tall is good! tall people are the first to know that its raining

:lol: Lol.

Enraged Penguin
22nd Aug 2011, 14:47
ITT: Angry short people with huge heads.

sojurn
22nd Aug 2011, 15:20
I find it amusing. People complaining about this and 3rd person view thing. Not that they aren't valid. But if that's the worst on people's minds, then I have high hopes for this game.

Oh well, I guess we'll all find out soon enough!

Mobius32
22nd Aug 2011, 15:27
As a somewhat amateur artist, the messed up proportions really bug me. I mean, after spending years trying to learnproper proportions for the human body to make my drawings look right, it really stands out to me. And, in my opinion, messing with proportions is the laziest way of being "creative". The HR art style was already unique enough, the proportions adjustments were completely unneccisary and, i think, really ugly.

From the videos I've seen, only some of the characters have ridiculously small heads, while others seem more or less normal. I'm hoping that I'll be enjoying the game too much to notice, but I think seeing characters like the tiny-headed scientist shown in one of the more recent videos are going to throw me out of the game for a second or two. Still going to enjoy the game thuroughly, as soon as my copy comes in (damn you for messing up your shiiping order, gamestop/eb games!), but the small heads is definately going to bother me.

I'm guessing it would be too complicated to implement a patch to fix it sometime in the future?

joebarnin
22nd Aug 2011, 15:54
if i ever get this game, it'll be through pirating. i ******* hate when developers try to get "creative" with crap like this.

I was going to buy your car from you, but I hate the color. So I'll just steal it instead.

Enraged Penguin
22nd Aug 2011, 16:11
I was going to buy your car from you, but I hate the color. So I'll just steal it instead.Lol :thumb:

Keiichi81
22nd Aug 2011, 18:09
I watched about an hour and a half of walkthrough footage on YouTube covering the first 2 1/2 missions of the game and never noticed any characters that seemed to have ridiculously tiny heads or disproportionate bodies...

SysOpPsyche
22nd Aug 2011, 19:09
@ OP

Yeah I was expecting there to be NPCs with different proportions - with different head shapes (ie: bigger forehead) and different types of body (ie: fat and slim people).

For instance, when I heard about Jensen's friend at the Police Station I was reasoning that the guy would gain some weight due to his desk job, but from what we've seen from the concept art he was pretty slim (I know it might be changed in the game).

That does tend to kick up memory usage a notch or two which typically means having to reduce number of NPC's however. Furthermore, a SWAT guy that gets a desk job isn't going to get fat quickly or easily (building muscle is hard - maintaining it isn't). Lastly, if the NPC's are in Combat gear, which most are, then they will look bulky even if they are stick thin. Chances are, not too many of them are fat or stick thin since combat training tends to get people in shape [they might have bear bellies or less muscle definition/tone: ie. the muscle appear as distinct on the body] and combat gear is usually bulky (by design intention - ie. fatigues are always baggy, the materials [polymers usually] are bulky but lighter so you need larger pieces to be effective compared to less advanced materials - its done intentionally to 1. make hitting 'Meat' harder since its harder to hit something you can't see, you see the clothes but meat underneath doesn't occupy the entire space of it only a portion 2. some optical tendency of the human eye for baggy objects to diffuse light/blend into backgrounds better or something like that [heard in a camouflage/concealment course]).


[edit] I will say that the 'Civilians' in the game look oversized though but that may have been to reduce graphics load (transform matrices).

Alarei
22nd Aug 2011, 19:12
I'm not bothered about the proportions of bodies and heads and what not. EM picked a unique design style which would distinguish their game from other competitors, I'm very much sure this is why they implemented that 'orange tint' in the game as well, I'm very much happy with the art style that EM has put into the game, and the small heads or what not are of no concern to me at all, and people who think otherwise, well go QQ some more.

Mobius32
22nd Aug 2011, 19:18
I'm not bothered about the proportions of bodies and heads and what not. EM picked a unique design style which would distinguish their game from other competitors, I'm very much sure this is why they implemented that 'orange tint' in the game as well, I'm very much happy with the art style that EM has put into the game, and the small heads or what not are of no concern to me at all, and people who think otherwise, well go QQ some more.

As I said before, messing with proportions is the laziest way to make your art style "unique", and as you pointed out, they have things like the orange tint, among other things, that already make it unique. There was absolutely no need for the small heads and the ones that are noticeably small look stupid (imo)

jtr7
22nd Aug 2011, 19:53
I find it amusing. People complaining about this and 3rd person view thing. Not that they aren't valid. But if that's the worst on people's minds, then I have high hopes for this game.

Oh well, I guess we'll all find out soon enough!

There are more concerns. You haven't noticed? Some of us won't ever be able to play the game.

Ashpolt
22nd Aug 2011, 20:05
There are more concerns. You haven't noticed? Some of us won't ever be able to play the game.

If you really can't stand Steam, or your internet connection can't support it, buy the game on a console.

stringtapper
22nd Aug 2011, 20:07
There are more concerns. You haven't noticed? Some of us won't ever be able to play the game.

It's obviously a conspiracy. Fitting, wouldn't you say?

sonicsidewinder
22nd Aug 2011, 20:09
Small Heads.

JCpies
22nd Aug 2011, 20:35
As I said before, messing with proportions is the laziest way to make your art style "unique", and as you pointed out, they have things like the orange tint, among other things, that already make it unique. There was absolutely no need for the small heads and the ones that are noticeably small look stupid (imo)

I don't think they would have specifically said, "Okay, draw characters with small heads so they look different."
It probably just came out with the designs and became part of the stylisation, lots of games and animations use varying proportions, like JJB (the cow) himself said...

alanschu
23rd Aug 2011, 01:52
look at the concept i posted in the op. now look at the screenshots and videos that are starting to pop out now. completely disgraces the work of the concept artist.

if i ever get this game, it'll be through pirating. i ******* hate when developers try to get "creative" with crap like this.

Quite the necropost.

If this is such an issue for you, then be a man and boycott the game. Don't pirate it.

Daedatheus
23rd Aug 2011, 02:08
if i ever get this game, it'll be through pirating. i ******* hate when developers try to get "creative" with crap like this.

Yeah I hate it when developers get creative and take risks, too! I'll send a message to developers, by not buying the game, that no one should ever bother diverging from formulaic game design! They never should have made this game, but more COD clones I say, more CoD clones!

...Do you realize how stupid this makes you sound? You're actively encouraging piracy because a studio has taken the time and effort to make an AMAZING game (not conjecture anymore thanks to all the glowing reviews), requiring creativity and experimentation and risk-taking, and you harp on probably the LEAST important flaw of that creativity? It all comes from the same bucket of talent.

Honestly, I truly dislike the small-heads-issue as well, but I would never attack and undermine a developer for being "creative", especially not after they've managed to deliver possibly the GREATEST game in years. If you're going to pirate a game, it should be reasonable. Like if they've put spyware in the commercial release, or if you're so poor you can't afford it right now but you'll buy it as soon as you have the money because you love supporting developers. But small heads? Eidos Montreal deserves your support and not this idiocy.

And how are small heads connected with your money? I assume the small heads bother you aesthetically, not financially. That means you probably NEVER want to play the game if there are small heads in it, right? So why pirate it later? Because you're going to enjoy the game, that's why. So buy it.

I'm sorry this kind of thing annoys me. Have your complaints with a game, but take REASONABLE actions about them. Going for piracy is the lazy way out and you're just lying to yourself to give yourself an excuse not to pay for the game, making it feel legitimized in your own brain. That's just pure laziness. Besides, if you want to send developers a message so specific as "don't have small heads in your game," then simply not buying the title doesn't have that result. It'll lead to the publisher Square Enix deciding that the Deus Ex franchise should die, and games that deviate from formula don't sell, etc. etc., among other lessons to be learned by a publisher that should never end up being true. Instead, send the art director an insulting letter that very effectively demonstrates how stupid you think the small heads look, with attached diagrams and pages from basic grade school art books :)

Vasarto
23rd Aug 2011, 02:25
Duh! Because in the future, Peoples brains are bigger and we grow taller due to better medicine!

GOSH!

rubiomhs
27th Aug 2011, 10:37
http://forums.techarena.in/video-games/1425743.htm
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=116123
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/07/06/12-minutes-in-deus-ex-human-revolution/

glad to see i'm not alone in this minority who happen to be able to think for themselves and realize when something looks ugly. i'm particularly loving his argument...if you want something unique, there are literally thousands of ways to do it without resorting to vandalizing the human body.

after studying some of the concept arts for various character, i once again resume shaking my head in disgust at what could have been.

on a related note. i think they screwed up malek's hair. it looks too dark and wiry in the game, and doesn't have enough volume. concept art for comparison:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110122173156/deusex/en/images/d/db/DX3_Malik%27s_VTOL.jpg

but it's interesting that she's one of the only characters to have realistic proportions resembling her concept art depiction. ie, her head is around the same size as everyone else's, but she's much shorter than most characters.

again, sorry to those who find this tedious. i didn't choose to be born with acute attention for details.