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redBadger
12th Sep 2010, 15:00
I wish to Pre-Order this game right now, however, being a very active Steam user, I would feel much better pre-ordering the game off Steam. I know the game is already up there on steam, however, there is no option to actually Pre-Purchase it.

I'm just curious to know if Eidos will make Deus Ex pre-purchasable on steam anytime soon. I have this $50 dollar card burning a hole in my wallet. I have no real interest in any other game at the moment, (except Portal 2, however I doubt the Pre-Purchase for that will be up anytime soon).

So yeah, I am willing to pre-order this right now, however, I would greatly prefer pre-ordering this game off Steam.

Thanks guys! I am looking forward to the game.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Sep 2010, 15:14
This very question was put forward in this thread (see Marketing/Promo section):
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=113445

Hopefully, you'll have an answer soon. :)

Pretentious Old Man.
12th Sep 2010, 15:21
I would strongly recommend against pre-ordering ANY game, no matter how good you think it might be. This is something I learned the hard way with Empire: Total War. Don't do it unless you are absolutely 1000% certain.

pha
12th Sep 2010, 15:45
I would strongly recommend against pre-ordering ANY game, no matter how good you think it might be.

Seconded.

Corpus
12th Sep 2010, 16:42
I would strongly recommend against pre-ordering ANY game, no matter how good you think it might be.

This.
I would say read reviews but I'd rather support going into things openly. Especially in these times.

mad825
12th Sep 2010, 18:03
ask steam? perhaps they will give you an answer? but then again asking to thee most stubborn people is rewarding I guess.

puzl
12th Sep 2010, 19:00
Pre-ordering games is a retarded practice, especially for those which are at least 6months+ away. Practically NO games will ever sell out on the first day and even if they did, theres at least 6 major game stores in my town alone to choose from. The incentives to pre-order are usually lacklustre at best too... an extra model for online play? An exclusive gun, which is usually pretty crap anyway? Even the discounted prices aren't usually worth the effort (though I did get £15 off the Heavy Rain special edition when I pre-ordered, but I had already played the demo by that time anyway)

Just wait until a few days before it hits retail stores and order off the net. By that time, reviews are out and you have a pretty solid idea of whether it will suck or not. Or just walk out of your house and pick it up in the store. Simple really.

redBadger
12th Sep 2010, 19:17
If I am a big fan of something, I'd still buy the game, even if it sucks. A good example of this would be Duke Nukem. DN: F could be horrible, but all the hardcore Duke fans will still get it anyway.

In my case, I am a big Valve fan. I'd pre-purchase everything they sell the day it is available (For example, I will be pre-ordering Portal 2 the day it's available).

Right now, I am a Deus Ex fan. I'd get this game regardless of whether it is bad or not. I almost never pre-order a game that I am not a big fan of, I don't want you guys to think I pre-purchase everything.

Red
12th Sep 2010, 19:38
No wonder they are ramming crap down our throats, there's people who will buy it no matter what. So much about wallet-voting.

Ashpolt
12th Sep 2010, 19:40
Right now, I am a Deus Ex fan. I'd get this game regardless of whether it is bad or not.

Great message you're sending to developers there. "As long as you use a name I like, I will buy any old crap you care to churn out." It's because of people like you that games like DXHR exist in the first place - or Rainbow Six: Vegas, Splinter Cell Conviction, etc etc. Thanks for slowly destroying the industry.

pha
12th Sep 2010, 19:46
If I am a big fan of something, I'd still buy the game, even if it sucks. A good example of this would be Duke Nukem. DN: F could be horrible, but all the hardcore Duke fans will still get it anyway.

In my case, I am a big Valve fan. I'd pre-purchase everything they sell the day it is available (For example, I will be pre-ordering Portal 2 the day it's available).

Right now, I am a Deus Ex fan. I'd get this game regardless of whether it is bad or not. I almost never pre-order a game that I am not a big fan of, I don't want you guys to think I pre-purchase everything.

"It's labeled Deus Ex, people will buy it."

This is the mentality which causes them to half ass the game instead of using their full potential. I hope you feel good about yourself.

redBadger
12th Sep 2010, 23:32
You're getting it all wrong. I'm a fan. Let me compare it to sports:

Say you are a fan of a team, do you root for them all the time, or only when they are good? If you only root for them when they are good, then that makes you a fair weather fan.

If I was a huge fan of a movie trilogy, would I not buy the last in the series just because it got bad reviews? That is your mentality. You would not buy the last movie of one of your favorite trilogies just because it is bad, or something it is not? Star Wars is an example of this. I'm a huge Star Wars nerd. People thought Phantom Menace was poor compared to the rest. Did that stop me from buying it? Of course not.

I'm a fan of the Deus Ex series. I own both of the currently released games. Would I not buy the prequel, just because it got bad reviews, or because it is "consolized" ?

I'm not a fair weather fan. I support my team even if they are doing poorly, I support a a good movie series even if it has one bad movie, and I will support an excellent game series, even if one turns out the way it should not.

ShuGGerNauT
13th Sep 2010, 00:38
You're getting it all wrong. I'm a fan. Let me compare it to sports:

Say you are a fan of a team, do you root for them all the time, or only when they are good? If you only root for them when they are good, then that makes you a fair weather fan.

If I was a huge fan of a movie trilogy, would I not buy the last in the series just because it got bad reviews? That is your mentality. You would not buy the last movie of one of your favorite trilogies just because it is bad, or something it is not? Star Wars is an example of this. I'm a huge Star Wars nerd. People thought Phantom Menace was poor compared to the rest. Did that stop me from buying it? Of course not.

I'm a fan of the Deus Ex series. I own both of the currently released games. Would I not buy the prequel, just because it got bad reviews, or because it is "consolized" ?

I'm not a fair weather fan. I support my team even if they are doing poorly, I support a a good movie series even if it has one bad movie, and I will support an excellent game series, even if one turns out the way it should not.

PROPS to redBadger! I fully support this.

Been lurking the forums for a long time now, but this topic has me more riled up than many of the others.

If I, personally, was in the studio designing the game and it came out exactly as I wanted it, I'd buy it. If the game comes out with horrible flaws and things that make me rage hard while I play (ie. DX:IW... but this isn't about my feelings there) I'll still buy it.

I love the stories the DX games tell. Cyberpunk is my favorite genre and it's hard to find cyberpunk games -- let alone one that's the third game of a well-known franchise. If anything, I'll buy the game to encourage more use of the franchise or for similar games to be made.

All this hate about regenerating health, cover systems, third-person... some things I like, some things I don't, and some I would have implemented differently. Either way, as the original DX ranks #1 on my favorite games list, I'm not going to make a purchase decision based on some reviews of how others feel about the game. The decision to buy was made after I finished the first DX. I'll get the game and form my own opinions. For the last game in the series, I got it and was disappointed, but that didn't stop me from wanting to get the next DX game the moment I finished it.

It'll be the same with HL2:EP3 and/or HL3 for me. I buy the games because, like or dislike the end result, I enjoy the franchise/intellectual property and want as much of it as I can get. For my roommate, it's the same with Halo. For another friend, it's the same with the Madden football games.

I haven't pre-ordered yet as I'm waiting for the Collector's Edition. I don't care what else is in it, that's just bonus. I'd actually prefer to buy over Steam (which, people like Kodaemon will probably have an aneurysm about, but whatever, it's quite convenient for me) but I feel like I'd miss out on whatever the collector's package holds. I'm hopeful I'll be able to activate the game on Steam after getting it in stores. Trust me though -- when I can pre-order, I will.

We're gamers who love our games, especially those of our favorite series or genres. Of course we all want DX:HR to be the best game it possibly can. Maybe everything will come together when the game is released and it'll give us all similar feelings to the original. Or it could be something unique and amazing all its own. Or... it could be garbage! Whatever the case, myself, as well as redBadger and many others I'm sure, will be there enjoying what's to be enjoyed, hating the parts we dislike, and in the end filled with hope and wonder about the next DX game.

So, to all the haters who feel we're doing a disservice to the series by playing a game you feel isn't up to par... do as you like! I'm sure you'd like everyone to go with you and "vote with their wallets", but I'll be enjoying my copy of DX:HR at the time, sorry. My suggestion is to drown your sorrows with your preferred beverage, sit in your cold and dark place hating that DX:HR is terrible in your mind.... then grab a copy of the game after a while. Maybe after all the press has died down and the net has formed is consensus on the game. Maybe borrow it from a friend so you don't have to go against your convictions. Maybe play that part of the game you thought you'd hate. Chances are, you probably will still dislike it. But maybe... just maybe... you'll like it a little. In the end, it's a game, and if we come out of it with some enjoyment, the game's job is done.

I'm looking forward to enjoying DX:HR.

jtr7
13th Sep 2010, 01:25
Why have you equated waiting to hear more about a game before purchasing it with being a hater? Change that fallacy and you'll have an argument.

bryt
13th Sep 2010, 01:26
.... lots of Stuff.

You will be flamed... but I am with you.

ShuGGerNauT
13th Sep 2010, 03:53
Why have you equated waiting to hear more about a game before purchasing it with being a hater? Change that fallacy and you'll have an argument.

Meant that toward telling someone who wants the game regardless to wait for reviews of it instead of pre-ordering. Sounds like I didn't make that clear, however. That, and I feel anyone not purchasing the game based on things they haven't actually experienced (cover, 3rd-person, regenerating health, etc.) is being a hater as well.

If you're undecided and want to hear more about the game before purchasing, I really didn't mean to speak to that audience. By all means, check out the reviews and only buy it if you think you'll enjoy it!

To summarize:
- Don't rip into someone because they want a game they feel they'll enjoy -- that's simply their opinion.

jtr7
13th Sep 2010, 05:12
Thanks.

And actually, one having an opinion of someone who spends their money on an optimistic gamble, AND makes the developer the same money regardless of that person's emotion, AND who can't get a refund, is an opinion and is valid. Money steers the trends, so who's spending it on the crap, and why do we all have to suffer a real lack because of it and the people who allow the money to steer them?

Also, hating on a game for having mechanics one knows for a fact they and other community members don't enjoy--and the original did not have--especially when it's something found in many games, used in specific ways that renders them unenjoyable (as opposed to ways those mechanics are used well in particular games), and knows it will make DX:HR unplayable for themselves, and the anger expressed over being left out after having thoroughly enjoyed the original, is more than simply an opinion, but it is...an opinion based on the facts of the individual. For myself, there are gaming aspects I can never enjoy, and my lack of enjoyment is not choice or perspective, and stating that adding those gaming aspects to a game will make it unenjoyable or unplayable for that person, and those they know who concur for the same reasons, is not opinion, but fact.

The more EM adds in mechanics and bells and whistles that override DX1 fans' enjoyment, for reasons that are not necessarily preferential, expect a backlash from them. Their attitude is the effect, not the cause, because they will be left out, after having promoted and purchased and loved the original, even though EM is not beholden to those fans or their sense of (real or imagined) entitlement, and EM will make profits of the people that will give them money no matter how they like the game or not.

We are also seeing that one person is saying the words they like are opinion but the other words are not opinion, which is incorrect, as well as saying that opinion is free from consequence, which is total bull.

Irate_Iguana
13th Sep 2010, 09:00
I'm not a fair weather fan. I support my team even if they are doing poorly, I support a a good movie series even if it has one bad movie, and I will support an excellent game series, even if one turns out the way it should not.

This is a bad comparison and you should feel bad. In any sport success is easily measured. The fans are there only to give moral support. If a team is playing lousy they will know that they are playing lousy. They will already be motivated to do better because they can immediately see that they aren't winning.

In movies and gaming success is measured in sales. A publisher only tracks a success via sales. If a game is a horrendous abomination that would make people violently ill when they purchase it and even causes deaths, but it still sells 2 million copies then publishers will think they are winning. Buying a bad installment of a series only tells the publishers that it is okay to make bad games. People will buy them regardless.

If you buy a game just because it has a certain name than you are part of the problem. You are sending the message that it is okay to make ****ty games. You are telling them that it is okay to destroy a franchise. You don't care about the team, you only care about the name.

NKD
13th Sep 2010, 09:18
Pre-ordering is of particular benefit to us as developers because we can use preorder data to extrapolate sales numbers based on past experience. Believe it or not, this can get the ball rolling early on funding for post-release support like patches and DLC, depending on the studio and publisher.

Ashpolt
13th Sep 2010, 09:20
You're getting it all wrong. I'm a fan. Let me compare it to sports:

Being a fan is neither shorthand nor a justification for being a stupid consumer.


If I was a huge fan of a movie trilogy, would I not buy the last in the series just because it got bad reviews? That is your mentality. You would not buy the last movie of one of your favorite trilogies just because it is bad, or something it is not? Star Wars is an example of this. I'm a huge Star Wars nerd. People thought Phantom Menace was poor compared to the rest. Did that stop me from buying it? Of course not.

Congratulations! You've just told George Lucas that The Phantom Menace was a good film, and worthy of your purchase. Do you think he (or anyone else along the entire production line) cares that you don't like it? No. They all just care that they get your money - which they have. To them, a sale is a sale is a sale is a sale, regardless of whether the consumer likes what they're getting in the end or not.


I'm not a fair weather fan. I support my team even if they are doing poorly, I support a a good movie series even if it has one bad movie, and I will support an excellent game series, even if one turns out the way it should not.

You don't seem to understand that the gaming industry is just that - and industry. It's all about getting the most return from the least investment, and because of people like you who are happy to buy any old crap because it's got a brand name attached, they can get huge returns from relatively small investments (not just talking money here.) At the end of the day, the developers and publishers of this title are going to look at the sales figures, and based on that, decide whether to make a sequel exactly the same as this one is (or, god help us, worse) - if it's sold well enough, they will not make the effort to make the next game better, because people like you have told them they don't need to. If it sells badly, either they go "well, no sequel for now - we'll let another dev pick it up in 5 / 10 years" (which I'm honestly fine with) or they go "hey, this didn't sell well - maybe we should have a look at this 'internets' I hear about, this vast web of information which can enable us to easily guage what people did and didn't like about our product, and use that information to make the next game better so it sells more." The motivation's still profit, sure, but the consumer has told them that they expect a better game in return for their money.

You're not a "proper" fan for supporting every bad decision your team makes, or every bad movie in a series you otherwise love, you're just a fanboy. A true fan acknowledges the weaknesses of whatever it is he's a fan of, in order to ensure it improves: if your team plays terribly, you don't say "Hey, you played great out there guys!" you say "That was a bad game guys, but I know you can do better next week." Blindly accepting everything you're given, regardless of quality, is sheer stupidity and damaging to the target of your fandom in the long run.

Or, to put it succinctly: had Invisible War sold particularly well, we might have got another bunch of those.

The Monochrome Man
13th Sep 2010, 14:50
A publisher only tracks a success via sales. If a game is a horrendous abomination that would make people violently ill when they purchase it and even causes deaths, but it still sells 2 million copies then publishers will think they are winning.

This isn't strictly true.

Gaming culture has a strong eddy of brand loyalty running underneath it.
It's true that publishers can get away with bad games, but people don't tend to buy a game based on who publishes it - they buy it based on who develops it. For example, there are people who are very loyal to id Software, but that doesn't mean they're going to support Activision (their publisher). Likewise, many follow DICE, but don't really care for EA. The big publishers generally don't care if they're hated, as Ubisoft and their customer-last approach to DRM shows.

From a publishers point of view, all good sales means is that they're more likely to keep the franchise and/or spend more money on it in the future.


It's an important distinction because while a developer can win brand loyalty with a handful of strong titles, it can also destroy its own reputation with bad titles, as Stardock has just found out to its cost. The players choice to buy the next game from that developer is normally based on the quality of that developers last title - if it's good, then they'll buy the next title that developer produces. If it's poor, that'll leave a bad taste in the mouth and the next title from that developer won't do as well as a result - even if it's GOTY material.

Deus Ex was a good game and I'm getting HR on that basis, given that there's no prior games from Em for me to base their ability on. If HR turns out to be poor, then there's a good chance I'd skip the next title from Em, whether it's a DE title or not. Bad games *do* hurt the bottom line, but the effect is out of synch (one-behind) with the releases.

On the other hand, if it's a strong game then Em have a good launch pad to establish the kind of brand loyalty that developers like Valve or DICE enjoy. They didn't get it by chance. :)

K^2
13th Sep 2010, 15:09
Say you are a fan of a team, do you root for them all the time, or only when they are good? If you only root for them when they are good, then that makes you a fair weather fan.
No, that makes you an intelligent human being. Brand loyalty, team loyalty, and party loyalty have been beaten into your head because it is profitable to major corporations and major political parties. It makes you a predictable consumer and a predictable voter.

It also makes you a useless person to your country, because your vote at the booth or at the register means absolutely nothing. It has been counted before you even knew what you were going to vote on. You will vote for your party, and so you will not be part of the swing voters who decide the election. You will buy your favorite brand, and so you will not be part of the consumer group who will choose the next product. And you will root for your favorite team, and so you will have no say in which teams get deals with which players and coaches.

And you are proud of that? Proud of being useless for anything other than keeping the status quo? Letting the rich get richer and these at power stay in power for better or worse?

Stop for a moment and think. Then get yourself an education. Take a class on politics and/or economics at your school, university, or local community college, whichever applies. Then try to make educated decisions that actually reflect the way you want things to be and become a responsible citizen, consumer, and plain-old human being.

Dr_Bob
13th Sep 2010, 17:41
Since when did this thread about pre-ordering the game turn into this philosophical discussion on being a clever member of society?

Kodaemon
13th Sep 2010, 18:26
Since when did this thread about pre-ordering the game turn into this philosophical discussion on being a clever member of society?

This is a Deus Ex forum, you know.

redBadger
13th Sep 2010, 19:14
Since when did this thread about pre-ordering the game turn into this philosophical discussion on being a clever member of society?

Because apparently me wanting to support one of my favorite game series automatically means I am an unintelligent person and I have no idea about anything, and also apparently means I am useless and a fanboy. ShuGGerNauT hit it on the ball, props to him.

NKD's signature is most definitely right. I ask about pre-ordering because I like the game as a series, and instead I get trolled about my decisions. And no matter what anyone says, it is my decision, so you might as well refrain from posting.:


The unhappiest and most negative community on the Internet is right here at the DXHR forums.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Sep 2010, 19:49
This is a Deus Ex forum, you know.

Yeah, twice the scum and half the space. :cool:

redBadger, sorry to see you've come under fire and some people are waving the "intellect card" in your face. This is utter nonsense and even Einstein himself would say (has said) as much. So feel free to ignore it, you don't have to respond... but if it continues or gets out of hand then mods will step in and/or delete/warn.

SageSavage
13th Sep 2010, 20:52
I said it before and I'll say it again: people who don't vote with their wallets are hurting the community. Also I don't understand how one can be a fan of a studio that has not released even one game so far. Being unknown to the rest of the DX world doesn't help with understanding your 'agenda' either.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Sep 2010, 21:02
As far as redBadger is concerned, he doesn't ask for understanding but acceptance.
Accept to differ - that's good reason, at least, not to want to use someone for target practice. :D

Dr_Bob
13th Sep 2010, 21:06
I was planning on pre-purchasing this on Steam as soon as it became available.

Am I going to be attacked as well?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Sep 2010, 21:09
Am I going to be attacked as well?

No.

Now let us ALL keep this discussion on track.
Clue: Don't get personal.

SageSavage
13th Sep 2010, 21:12
Probably not but if you go around and tell people, expect to hear their opinions too. IMO, pre-ordering is counter-productive and totally unnecessary.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Sep 2010, 21:18
Probably not but if you go around and tell people, expect to hear their opinions too.

Absolutely. But the most valid opinions are those expressed without the need to belittle.

II J0SePh X II
13th Sep 2010, 21:36
I'm glad I adopted a wait and see policy with Mafia II, so many games these days are carved up and re-sold as DLC. I've just plain stopped pre-ordering any game.

FrankCSIS
14th Sep 2010, 02:06
You know, in democracy, we have to take a man's word for granted and cast a vote before we actually get to see them in action, with the usual catasrophe that inevatibly ensues a few years down the road, usually around mid-term, or right after. With capitalism, we have the luxury to observe products in their element, read reviews about them, try them on, or wait a few weeks and see if all the hype goes away or if we still really badly want the object of our desire.

Why sacrifice this tremendous opportunity, especially when you get absolutely no benefit whatsoever out of an early purchase. If at least they had exclusives, limited editions of some sort, I'd understand. But getting a t-shirt, or some DLC content out of an early purchase, if anything at all, does not match the potential loss of an average or bad purchase. Look at the IPhone 4 and the mess of the early release. The most die-hard fans end up paying for early design mistakes, while those who wait and see get to have the fixed edition. Same thing happened with the XBox 360. Same thing happens with nearly all pre-patch game release.

It's not that I want to ***** on pre-orders, it's just that from a consumer's point of view I see absolutely no benefit, nor actual sense or logic in it. I understand why a studio encourages it, that's fair game. The same reason why, despite all the hassle of it, they still invest ressources into building a form of community.

K^2
14th Sep 2010, 02:31
But the most valid opinions are those expressed without the need to believe.
Fixed.

I don't have a problem with a person making his own choices. I have a problem with a person making obviously poor choices and flaunting it as a virtue, calling people who make educated decisions "fair weather fans".

I did not fire the first shot.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th Sep 2010, 08:11
^
To be fair, he used the term 'fair-weather fan' by definition, giving an example of supporting a football team, to explain where he is coming from.

Pinky_Powers
14th Sep 2010, 08:53
As I've expressed via vote in some long-forgotten poll, a Demo is the surest way to get me to buy your game. But it's also potentially the best way to lose me as a customer. If it's good, I'm sold. If not...

I never pre-order, with only a few exceptions. Valve games, mostly. :) I'll probably also pre-order Mass Effect 3. But Eidos Montréal has a lot to prove.

IdiotInAJeep
14th Sep 2010, 10:04
The amount of immature name calling and harassment on these forums is sickening. redBadger should be able to open a thread stating his opinion and asking a simple question without being harassed for having a different opinion to you. All you people preaching your demands for a "Mature" game should really look at your behaviour on these forums and start being mature enough to not start a flame war on every thread.

NKD
14th Sep 2010, 10:24
The amount of immature name calling and harassment on these forums is sickening. redBadger should be able to open a thread stating his opinion and asking a simple question without being harassed for having a different opinion to you. All you people preaching your demands for a "Mature" game should really look at your behaviour on these forums and start being mature enough to not start a flame war on every thread.

Eh, the more... verbose... PC gamers just generally aren't very nice people, and Deus Ex fans can be an even more hateful group. Arrogant, condescending, intolerant, just about every negative trait a human being can have.

But that's not everyone. Just the vocal minority. A shame that they've ruined this forum and that the moderators have to actually tell people to treat others with a bit of decency.

Ashpolt
14th Sep 2010, 11:13
I'm sorry, but this guy outright said "I will buy this game even if it turns out to be terrible." I don't believe that statement deserves respect, no matter how much you try to play the "opinion" card, because this is the exact attitude that has led the industry to be in the terrible place it is now. For everyone who's defending this guy's right to be a terrible, terrible consumer - have you ever complained about EA churning out near-identical sequels every year? Congratulations, you're a hypocrite. Laughed at the fact that loads of the Modern Warfare 2 boycott group ended up buying it anyway? You're a hypocrite.

Voting with your wallets is quite literally the only power the consumer still has, especially with a company so utterly unreceptive to their fan input as Eidos Montreal have proven to be, so no, I'm absolutely not going to give equal respect to someone who chooses to give up that final piece of power - in the process, ruining that same power for the rest of us - because he can't resist buying something shiny that has a name he likes on the box.

I'm not arguing against the game in particular - if it turns out to be good, by all means buy it - but by saying "I will buy it even if it's terrible" you're just telling Eidos Montreal that they don't even have to bother trying to make a good game. And you call yourself a fan?

mad825
14th Sep 2010, 11:43
The amount of immature name calling and harassment on these forums is sickening. redBadger should be able to open a thread stating his opinion and asking a simple question without being harassed for having a different opinion to you. All you people preaching your demands for a "Mature" game should really look at your behaviour on these forums and start being mature enough to not start a flame war on every thread.

well done!

you have now understood how much of a **** and a**** a human (especially in groups) can be! even though the very same thing can be thrown back at you.

all you need to do know is to report back to your psychology/sociology teacher to get that lovely A*.

Red
14th Sep 2010, 11:56
The amount of immature name calling and harassment on these forums is sickening. redBadger should be able to open a thread stating his opinion and asking a simple question without being harassed for having a different opinion to you. All you people preaching your demands for a "Mature" game should really look at your behaviour on these forums and start being mature enough to not start a flame war on every thread.

To think someone registered alter-ego just to spew this...


{crap} has led the industry to be in the terrible place it is now.

But the industry has grown as a whole, don't you know that? You should by now...

rokstrombo
14th Sep 2010, 12:12
I think the only way to value the experience of a game is to play it for yourself. There is not always a legal or adequate way to do this without actually buying it. In this way, it is inconsequential whether the game is bought before or after release, provided the game is actually released. Everyone has to pay for the game before they can know its value.

I think the attitude that has most lead the games industry to its current state is the expectation that the purchase of a game buys an experience of a specific value. I believe the purchase justifies the existence of the game, but whether or not that game is enjoyed is up to the individual. I think if people were more confident that they could be satisfied by the positive aspects of their games, they would be more willing to support new franchises and developers. Since they aren't, big-budget games will be mostly catered to the largest possible audience.

Ninjerk
14th Sep 2010, 12:13
^
To be fair, he used the term 'fair-weather fan' by definition, giving an example of supporting a football team, to explain where he is coming from.

I hate to say it, but I agree. I didn't read an attack in his "FWF" post. I do have contempt for the sort of mentality that motivates such a decision, but most of this talk seems rather off-topic (considering the simplicity of the OP).

Pretentious Old Man.
14th Sep 2010, 12:14
There are only two possible actions if EM give us a lemon with HR:

1.) I wanted an orange!

2.) BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th Sep 2010, 15:09
I'm sorry, but this guy outright said "I will buy this game even if it turns out to be terrible." I don't believe that statement deserves respect, no matter how much you try to play the "opinion" card... For everyone who's defending this guy's right to be a terrible, terrible consumer... Congratulations, you're a hypocrite.


Equally, one could point to a vast number of comments made on this forum that do not "deserve respect", eg. those that call people names, stereotype, or criticise intellect etc. So, the point that is being made is that the rules of this forum apply to everyone - that way, none of us have to be hypocrites, and we can all hold our head up high.

Clearly, nobody is defending his right to be 'a terrible, terrible consumer'; they defend his right to share with us his personal decision to pre-order the game.

Pretentious Old Man.
14th Sep 2010, 15:13
Clearly, nobody is defending his right to be 'a terrible, terrible consumer'; they defend his right to share with us his personal decision to pre-order the game.

He has the right to share it. He doesn't have the right for it to respected by one and all.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th Sep 2010, 15:16
He doesn't have the right for it to respected by one and all.
Never said that.
The only 'respect' I am expecting is with regard to the rules of this forum.

Pretentious Old Man.
14th Sep 2010, 15:20
Never said that.
The only 'respect' I am expecting is with regard to the rules of this forum.

Fair enough.

IdiotInAJeep
15th Sep 2010, 01:14
well done!

you have now understood how much of a **** and a**** a human (especially in groups) can be! even though the very same thing can be thrown back at you.

all you need to do know is to report back to your psychology/sociology teacher to get that lovely A*.

Yay! I can't wait to get that A*!:)

Cronstintein
15th Sep 2010, 05:28
It's an important distinction because while a developer can win brand loyalty with a handful of strong titles, it can also destroy its own reputation with bad titles, as Stardock has just found out to its cost. The players choice to buy the next game from that developer is normally based on the quality of that developers last title - if it's good, then they'll buy the next title that developer produces. If it's poor, that'll leave a bad taste in the mouth and the next title from that developer won't do as well as a result - even if it's GOTY material.


I would agree with most of this but it applies to informed consumers. To an uninformed consumer it would only impact the likelyhood of them picking up any sequel.

But in general I would say a developer's as good as his last title.

redBadger
15th Sep 2010, 22:02
I'm sorry, but this guy outright said "I will buy this game even if it turns out to be terrible." I don't believe that statement deserves respect, no matter how much you try to play the "opinion" card, because this is the exact attitude that has led the industry to be in the terrible place it is now. For everyone who's defending this guy's right to be a terrible, terrible consumer - have you ever complained about EA churning out near-identical sequels every year? Congratulations, you're a hypocrite. Laughed at the fact that loads of the Modern Warfare 2 boycott group ended up buying it anyway? You're a hypocrite.

Voting with your wallets is quite literally the only power the consumer still has, especially with a company so utterly unreceptive to their fan input as Eidos Montreal have proven to be, so no, I'm absolutely not going to give equal respect to someone who chooses to give up that final piece of power - in the process, ruining that same power for the rest of us - because he can't resist buying something shiny that has a name he likes on the box.

I'm not arguing against the game in particular - if it turns out to be good, by all means buy it - but by saying "I will buy it even if it's terrible" you're just telling Eidos Montreal that they don't even have to bother trying to make a good game. And you call yourself a fan?

It's funny, because you do not seem like a true fan yourself.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
15th Sep 2010, 23:20
^
Let's not encourage this thread to go off the rails again.
We can all move on now.

Ashpolt
15th Sep 2010, 23:21
It's funny, because you do not seem like a true fan yourself.

It depends on your definition of "fan" (and that's a debate I'm not going to get into.) If, however, your definition means "liking everything associated with a series just because of that association" then no, I suppose you wouldn't consider me a true fan. Needless to say, I wouldn't define "fan" in such a way - but again, that's not a discussion I really care to get into.

redBadger
15th Sep 2010, 23:46
I agree I don't want this to not get derailed, however being called a terrible consumer and other names doesn't really make me happy. Though, as always, it is based on opinion and I respect Ashpolts opinions.

Now on topic, I think having a demo released side-by-side with the pre-order would be perfect, so you can try the game before you decide to pre-order it. Also, maybe instead of some dumb exclusive in-game item, maybe $5 off the game when your pre-order it would be a nice addition as well.

mithrandiryod
17th Sep 2010, 17:50
I agree I don't want this to not get derailed, however being called a terrible consumer and other names doesn't really make me happy. Though, as always, it is based on opinion and I respect Ashpolts opinions.

Now on topic, I think having a demo released side-by-side with the pre-order would be perfect, so you can try the game before you decide to pre-order it. Also, maybe instead of some dumb exclusive in-game item, maybe $5 off the game when your pre-order it would be a nice addition as well.

While I'd love a demo...it honestly doesn't matter to me. I'm so there when this game comes out (Have been since the rumors/announcement). Though the only reason I haven't pre-ordered is because I'm waiting for a collectors edition to be announced. :whistle:

Xenoc
17th Sep 2010, 17:58
I would strongly recommend against pre-ordering ANY game, no matter how good you think it might be. This is something I learned the hard way with Empire: Total War. Don't do it unless you are absolutely 1000% certain.

made this mistake with alpha protocol which was a buggy mess and guess what Sega does not even support the game anymore??? So yes what POM said!

mad825
17th Sep 2010, 18:08
made this mistake with alpha protocol which was a buggy mess and guess what Sega does not even support the game anymore??? So yes what POM said!

you made a bad choice.

Obsidian Entertainment are infamous for buggy games.

Ninjerk
17th Sep 2010, 19:45
you made a bad choice.

Obsidian Entertainment are infamous for buggy games.

This is what worries me about FO:NV. From the gameplay videos and various bits of available information about the game, it sounds like everything I wanted from FO3 and didn't get (a challenge, an original story with some sense to it, well thought and designed game systems, etc.). It could be a buggy mess in the long run.

mad825
17th Sep 2010, 19:54
This is what worries me about FO:NV. From the gameplay videos and various bits of available information about the game, it sounds like everything I wanted from FO3 and didn't get (a challenge, an original story with some sense to it, well thought and designed game systems, etc.). It could be a buggy mess in the long run.

True however Bethesda said that they will be working together, they said that the testers in Bethesda softworks are helping in-conjunction with the production so hopefully it wont be as bad.


anyway, I bet that Obsidian Entertainment just scoured Fallout Nexus and picked the best and feasible mods that they could implement *cough* professionally.

Irate_Iguana
17th Sep 2010, 20:06
True however Bethesda said that they will be working together, they said that the testers in Bethesda softworks are helping in-conjunction with the production so hopefully it wont be as bad.

Beth products are full of bugs as well. Some even gamestopping. Not exactly an encouraging comment. Not to mention that these are the same people who thought level-scaling and a horrible UI were good ideas.

mad825
17th Sep 2010, 20:13
hopefully it wont be as bad

I have to emphasise and stress but at least Bethesda's bugs is the lesser evil when compared to Obsidian. Right?

Irate_Iguana
17th Sep 2010, 20:17
I have to emphasise and stress but at least Bethesda's bugs is the lesser evil when compared to Obsidian. Right?

Well, yes. Most of Beth's bugs will allow you to finish the game. They also generally ship a complete game and not one with the ending removed.

loveassassin13
18th Sep 2010, 04:18
I am a console gamer, so I pre-ordered it from GameStop a month ago. The magical thing about that, is I can just not pick my pre-order up and get my deposit back! But, I won't do that, because Deus Ex is just that awesome.

Pinky_Powers
18th Sep 2010, 04:24
I am a console gamer, so I pre-ordered it from GameStop a month ago. The magical thing about that, is I can just not pick my pre-order up and get my deposit back! But, I won't do that, because Deus Ex is just that awesome.

Deus Ex is awesome, but it's been out for ten years, you cannot pre-order it.

HellKittyDan
18th Sep 2010, 16:13
people who don't vote with their wallets are hurting the community.

What do you think constitutes "voting with their wallets"? If I tick the No, this isn't the game for me box, have I "voted with my wallet"? What if I tick the Yes, this is the game for me box? A vote one doesn't agree with is still a vote that counts. Waiting isn't voting, it's what you do before deciding which way to cast your vote.

Some people can look at all the info they have now and decide they want to purchase the game, some can look at it and decide they aren't interested, and some still aren't sure yet, preferring to wait for others opinions in the form of forum posts and magazine reviews. None of this is a problem, none of this hurts the community. From the developers/publishers point of view there is no difference between a sale made after seeing an advertisement and a sale made after reading a review.

If someone is asking how to preorder then they have clearly already made up their mind (voted yes). Ignoring their question and insisting they wait for reviews (refrain from voting until they've read someone else's opinion) is condescending and unnecessary.

Reviews aren't an objective truth, and people tend to look at them to conform their own preconceived notions anyway. If their opinion of a game is negative, they'll look to the negative reviews to be proven right, and vice versa. When it comes to reviews they disagree with, they'll just claim the writer was bribed (if the score is high) or claim the writer just doesn't "get it" (if the score is low). Alternatively they'll ignore the review and focus entirely on the score. "OMG they gave it a 7 but it totally deserves an 8!!!!!1one"

lithos
18th Sep 2010, 16:40
Not to mention that these are the same people who thought level-scaling and a horrible UI were good ideas.

Oh god, yes.

Still, though, thank go they're not stupid enough to remove the console. Because that's what it's there for! That, and giving the tilde key a meaning in life.

loveassassin13
19th Sep 2010, 02:49
Deus Ex is awesome, but it's been out for ten years, you cannot pre-order it.

Really? That is pretty clear that I am talking about Human Revolution. Also, yes, Deus Ex IS awesome.

FrankCSIS
19th Sep 2010, 06:09
Really? That is pretty clear that I am talking about Human Revolution.

You haven't met Pinky yet, I take it ;)

rubiomhs
19th Sep 2010, 06:11
i'll wait this steam has a sale and this game is at least 30 dollars before i buy it.