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Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 12:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdEvgns8B4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7USABbiRAo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XdZbIq5Mg

Basically, imagine the E3 gameplay leak except on a HUGE screen with no head in the way.


Alternate demonstration on a smaller screen and from a different angle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Natn_1fhavI

Irate_Iguana
5th Sep 2010, 12:34
****. I've got to let the whole thing load, because it won't skip to min 16. Irritating.

Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 12:35
****. I've got to let the whole thing load, because it won't skip to min 16. Irritating.

Sorry to hear that, the GameSpot video player can be quite glitchy.

Have you tried to download the video and play it from your computer?

Irate_Iguana
5th Sep 2010, 12:36
Sorry to hear that, the GameSpot video player can be quite glitchy.

Have you tried to download the video and play it from your computer?

Nah, give it a minute or two and the thing is done.

Pinky_Powers
5th Sep 2010, 12:45
I'm going for the HD version. It's going to take a while to load. :(

Irate_Iguana
5th Sep 2010, 12:49
Either my gamma settings are off, or the vid is really ******* dark.

Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 12:52
Either my gamma settings are off, or the vid is really ******* dark.

It was dark for me when he was stealthing at the start of the second segment.

Irate_Iguana
5th Sep 2010, 13:22
The social bit was interesting to see. Not too happy with the menu they have. Hopefully the PC version will get something that will be actually usable. Getting to read the entire line was pretty nice. Don't know if it is the video or what, but the expressions on the NPC faces were all but non-existent. Voice acting for some NPC's seems to be horrendous. Just like in DX. As expected the English voice actors fail to pronounce Dutch names correctly. Peeking around corners give you a ****load of screen to see. Stealth will be easy that way.

Wish I could comment on the second part, but it was so dark that I couldn't even see Adam. Felt like watching a demo made with Doom's patented "Can't See ****" technology. The only things that I could see was directly after the Claymore Moment. The guards apparently drop their assault rifles after being shot and the rifles glow. I guess looting enemies is out.

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Sep 2010, 13:22
OMFG

One of those buildings in Hengsha has VERSALIFE written on it huge letters.





FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.....

Ilves
5th Sep 2010, 13:28
Ooh, the humanity!! Poor Mary. Held up like a trooper tough. :thumb:

Apart from the familiar gripes, looking at the footage makes me feel like standing in front of a big layered chocolate cake, holding a fork. :naughty:

Pinky_Powers
5th Sep 2010, 13:40
Mary's a sexy lady! :eek:


Apart from the familiar gripes, looking at the footage makes me feel like standing in front of a big layered chocolate cake, holding a fork. :naughty:

^... This! And This again! :thumb:

Fluffis
5th Sep 2010, 13:46
For those with a problem jumping to the 16.06 part:
press the five bars at the bottom right (where it will say your streaming bitrate), and choose "Dynamic Streaming". (Edit: also works with "Static Streaming")

lithos
5th Sep 2010, 13:48
I was kinda hoping in the future firearms would have these things called "safety catches" or "double action" cocking mechanisms...

mad825
5th Sep 2010, 13:54
well I guess we can now confirm that Dx has developed the GoW syndrome

Fluffis
5th Sep 2010, 13:58
I find it kind of interesting that this video (while not having a head in the middle of it) is so dark, that some things are almost more difficult to see than in the leaked footage.

Mindmute
5th Sep 2010, 14:09
7529 and 0415? Very sly, EM...

Nyysjan
5th Sep 2010, 14:09
This demonstration does not, in anyway, fill me with confidence.
Altough i do admit it could have been worse (still hate the takedowns and 3rd person stealth though).

Where does AJ keep all those weapons though? JC atleast had a big baggy coat to hide stuff under.

EDIT-
Barret and the cutscene were utterly horrible though (dammit Adam, never, ever turn slowly, duck, jump slightly to the front and left/right roll and come up with your weapon drawn, less likely to get you hit in the face).

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Sep 2010, 14:22
I liked the dark, under-gamma-corrected look. Looks more like proper night time.

Mindmute
5th Sep 2010, 14:26
Where does AJ keep all those weapons though? JC atleast had a big baggy coat to hide stuff under.


Honestly, I'm not that thrilled about some stuff either, but that's just fishing for complaints, JC's coat didn't have enough room to hide half that stuff either, nevermind that it seemed weightless while under the coat. If it didn't bother you then, it shouldn't really bother you now.


What I WOULD like to complain however is that we've yet to see that so-called grid inventory they boasted about. I'd also like to see the menus, especially the hacking one of the PC version.




I liked the dark, under-gamma-corrected look. Looks more like proper night time.

Agree here, however if they were going for visual impact, they could've made the area with the neons to be a lot brighter than it was. It'd have made the city feel a bit more dynamic other than looking like it had one static light-type all over.

Shinrei
5th Sep 2010, 14:36
Wohooo...thx Dr. Bob for sharing! :thumb: Currently buffering (seems to take ages), but can't wait to see it in HD with no head in the way. Hopefully it will live up to my expectations, surely I'm gonna analyse every second of it!

Also nice to here, that EM puts in some hints like the VersaLife logo....arghs...gogo Internet! :mad2:

Fluffis
5th Sep 2010, 14:39
All right... After seeing it all now, I have to say that I'm disappointed that we got to see the exact same series of events again. No change whatsoever, apart from the game crash (poor Mary). Would it kill them to take a slightly different route to the "A Bomb!" cut scene? Did we have to see the exact same takedowns?

I mean, I understand they don't want to give away the dialogue options that will get you to see Tong directly, for instance, but couldn't they at least have shown us something different?

Pinky_Powers
5th Sep 2010, 14:47
^... I agree. And remember, it was even a different Demoer this time; our new CM Kyle. It's clear they must have walked him through exactly what to do, step by step. When to use non-lethal takedowns, when to turn on invisibility, which weapon to use, and when.

I'm guessing the demo is so unfinished right now it will break completely if they stray outside of this super narrow path. Which is understandable. The content is all there now, but the thing is clearly buggy as all hell and crashes sometimes even when they stay on path.

TrickyVein
5th Sep 2010, 15:07
The first part of this vid about FF - fursuits? This is why I loathe anime/manga. Yep, pretty much.

We'll have to manage energy and ammo? This game sounds too hard.

I saw Steven Seagull @ 22:38

Hmm. Just thought of this: The "Hive's" design theme may also relate to organic molecules: carbon rings - bio-engineering, and the like.

Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 15:44
The first part of this vid about FF - fursuits? This is why I loathe anime/manga. Yep, pretty much.

Not all animé/manga has people in fursuits.

But yes, the ones that do I generally avoid.

lithos
5th Sep 2010, 15:58
I'd be careful, Eidos. Ridley Scott might just sue your arse if you're not careful...

Also, I'm glad it's Canadian-made, and not a US-made game. You've got people speaking Chinese (even though I'm part Chinese myself, can't speak a word of it, so can't tell if it's Cantonese or Mandarin - I'm guessing Canto,) because, well, they're in China. Fancy that. As opposed to the "have them speak English, but with a stereotypical accent," which is de rigeur for US-made games (and movies, and TV shows.) Hitman got the languages right as well, and it's effect on putting your where your character was was brilliant.

Also, the fact that the alternate entrance wasn't located within six inches of the door to the Hive means that they've definitely realised level size in IW was a problem.

Why isn't the VIP bartender's arm grubby, pink Russian plastic?

And what's with the crash? Were they playing it on Xbox?

I'm personally not liking Adam's voice actor. Got less range than a fart-powered spud gun. I'm reminded of that Penny-Arcade comic about Prince of Persia: "I smolder with generic rage." Franke did dark with JC, but also managed a whole gamut of emotions - sarcastic, worried, cautious, confident...also, this year, I learned that Franke actually WAS an actor before working for Ion Storm.

I'd like to say something about HR being subtle but...can't think of anything. What happened to quiet, professional realism as opposed to reruns of Power Rangers?

Cannot help but notice most of the footage didn't actually consist of gameplay.

Jensen, to man WORKING behind bar: "You work here?"
[i]Man behind bar, while WORKING : "Yeah," a pause, then, managing to be both cryptic and redundant at the same time, "You could say that.

The dialogue needs work. You don't have to limit yourself to just three types of character - hard-boiled, gritty, and gritty and hard-boiled!

The dialogue "summaries" didn't work well in Alpha Protocol. Since you're meant to be the character, you should know exactly what you're going to say next. In AP, you'd pick an "approach" in conversation, and hope for the best. Often, I found myself stuck with Thorton (or is it Thornton? The damn PC's name wasn't consistent, even within the game itself!) saying something I never, ever would've picked. Essentially, you just rolled the dice as to what the character said. I know people hate to read, but there's always Halo for those kids.

Bullet point randomness.

* Having an ability to turn of that third person junk (I've nothing against third person - it's not better or worse than first, it's just what EM's doing with it,) will eliminate about 60% of my gripes with the game as it stands. If it means giving up some of the "cinematic" augs, then, woohoo! Bonus! Third-person ladder climbing shat me even back in the good ol' days of Project IGI.

* I hope the cover system isn't automatic - ie, get close enough to a piece of cover, and, THUNK! Jensen magically sticks to to it with no input from the player whatsoever. I hope there's a way to ignore it completely.

* I hope the controls are expanded for PC. We've got a hundred keys to choose from, why not let us use 'em. None of that context-sensitive, tap-or-hold crap.

Pinky_Powers
5th Sep 2010, 16:14
* I hope the cover system isn't automatic - ie, get close enough to a piece of cover, and, THUNK! Jensen magically sticks to to it with no input from the player whatsoever. I hope there's a way to ignore it completely.

They aren't automatic. You stand near something, hold down trigger/RMB, and take cover. Basically, the mechanic works like Rainbow Six Vegas', which is the most fluid and goodly cover-system I've seen yet.

Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 16:31
They aren't automatic. You stand near something, hold down trigger/RMB, and take cover. Basically, the mechanic works like Rainbow Six Vegas', which is the most fluid and goodly cover-system I've seen yet.

I want to know the controls for the PC and consoles, because having all these actions, like changing and equipping different augmentations, holstering your weapon, changing weapons and the cover system must mean that many functions will probably be mapped to the same button.

I only hope that the PC version doesn't suffer from the same control simplification the console versions will probably have.

Pinky_Powers
5th Sep 2010, 16:36
^... no kidding.

Ilves
5th Sep 2010, 16:37
As expected the English voice actors fail to pronounce Dutch names correctly.


If our Arie doesn't have the thickest, fattest, dutchiest accent imaginable, this piggy might have to consider not buying. http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/13.gif

Another observation on guns: I love the exhaust effects, from the assault rifle to the launcher. I can't remember any other game where it struck me like this. Not that that's saying much. http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/8.gif

And where's that Versalife logo? This I gotta see!

Ashbery76
5th Sep 2010, 16:39
The art design is amazing.The game is looking good.

Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 16:41
And what's with the crash? Were they playing it on Xbox?

At the bottom-right of the screen, it says "E3 DEMO 2010 - PRE-ALPHA".

And judging from the controls, they were playing it on a PS triple.


I'm personally not liking Adam's voice actor. Got less range than a fart-powered spud gun. I'm reminded of that Penny-Arcade comic about Prince of Persia: "I smolder with generic rage." Franke did dark with JC, but also managed a whole gamut of emotions - sarcastic, worried, cautious, confident...also, this year, I learned that Franke actually WAS an actor before working for Ion Storm.

I actually like his voice.

It's very masculine.

But also because it's not like the whiny male character's voice in DX2.


Cannot help but notice most of the footage didn't actually consist of gameplay.

It was ALL gameplay.

The cutscenes were rendered in-engine and the conversations were in-game, as well.

Notice how the player kept moving a little bit during the conversation with the VIP bartender? You're not stuck with a conversation-screen system like, say, Oblivion.


Jensen, to man WORKING behind bar: "You work here?"
[i]Man behind bar, while WORKING : "Yeah," a pause, then, managing to be both cryptic and redundant at the same time, "You could say that.

Sounds like an excuse for the line "Yeah... you could say that..."

A minor issue; one I'm sure won't make the game bad.


The dialogue "summaries" didn't work well in Alpha Protocol. Since you're meant to be the character, you should know exactly what you're going to say next. In AP, you'd pick an "approach" in conversation, and hope for the best. Often, I found myself stuck with Thorton (or is it Thornton? The damn PC's name wasn't consistent, even within the game itself!) saying something I never, ever would've picked. Essentially, you just rolled the dice as to what the character said. I know people hate to read, but there's always Halo for those kids.

The problem with that is that you spend more time reading out exactly what you're character is going to say, instead of going with the flow of the conversation.

In fact, they do show a minimised version of what you will say, when you highlight the conversation options.

It's not the full thing, but it's bigger than Mass Effect's conversation option simplification.


* I hope the controls are expanded for PC. We've got a hundred keys to choose from, why not let us use 'em. None of that context-sensitive, tap-or-hold crap.

Me too, I didn't like the control simplification in the PC version of Mass Effect 2 and I won't like it in this game either.


And where's that Versalife logo? This I gotta see!

http://i55.tinypic.com/zwdxy1.jpg

Pinky_Powers
5th Sep 2010, 17:14
http://i55.tinypic.com/zwdxy1.jpg

Most excellent!

Bushmonster
5th Sep 2010, 17:18
somebody was talking about the conversation between adam and the bartender

im pretty sure "working" didnt mean simply working as a bartender, i believe adam was implying that the bartender was working for tong

Shinrei
5th Sep 2010, 17:28
After seeing the already known footage in (nearly) HD, I truly can't wait for the release. It really reminds me back in the days on my first playthrough on DX - HR definitely got that "special" Deus Ex feeling. Also after seeing the changes from the game mechanics (transfering the "old, slow paced game mechanic" - which is certainly a good thing in Deus Ex - to the modern day gaming aesthetics i.e. regen health to keep you in pace ), it doesn't upset me as much as I thought by seeing the leaked footage before. The 3rd person switch isn't that awful (altough climbing a ladder seems a bit over-the-top), I can live with that and at some point it definitely enrichens the gameplay (for me), getting it more cinematic and creates a kind of a dramatic scenery (and NOT for the cost of immersion).

Everybody who complains about glitches or missing facial expression, as stated many times before, this is PRE ALPHA footage -> so EM do have enough time to polish till 2011. Hopefully the story is as good as in the first time, but with those really talented writers like Mary or Sheldon I doubt they could screw it... now the only thing I'm complaining about is the fact that it will take AGES till 2011...but in the next few months I think we will get bombarded with new material and the PR machinery should get started. So hopefully it wouldn't take that long till release... gogo EM now you got your cred back on a trustworthy sequel ...erm...prequel. :whistle:

Fluffis
5th Sep 2010, 17:29
It was ALL gameplay.

The cutscenes were rendered in-engine and the conversations were in-game, as well.


Being rendered in-game is not the same as gameplay. Gameplay is when you play the game. :eek:



Notice how the player kept moving a little bit during the conversation with the VIP bartender? You're not stuck with a conversation-screen system like, say, Oblivion.


Of course you are stuck. What the hell else was that scene-switch?

No matter if you can move the camera while talking, you're still stuck.
Edit: It's no different from your own ability to look at different parts of the screen, while at the movies. I'd say there is no way they're going to let you turn 360 degrees during a conversation. However if they do, I'll be impressed. It means that they actually used real sensibilities, and not just film sensibilities.

Bushmonster
5th Sep 2010, 18:07
it seems they have taken out bio-energy

lithos
5th Sep 2010, 18:07
I want to know the controls for the PC and consoles, because having all these actions, like changing and equipping different augmentations, holstering your weapon, changing weapons and the cover system must mean that many functions will probably be mapped to the same button.

Yeah, parasite mapping (there's probably a better term for it. Symbiote mapping? Siamese Keys? Conjoined Keys, for the more politically correct?) The control system's my second biggest annoyance with ported games. I don't get why they just can't hire a few guys to develop a specific interface for each platform.

There was an article titled "Why Do Games Ported To PC Suck?" in a games mag here and one of the justifications for that was "well, it's how we envision the game." Fair enough, but I do question that vision. When given the choice of, say, selecting a weapon via holding done a key that does something else if only tapped to open a menu, then moving the cursor to "Weapons," then highlighting the weapon, to hitting the OK button, or pulling up the weapon simply one button, which do you think most people would prefer?

Of course, it's easier and cheaper to just have random talking heads say, "No, really, we're taking care in making a dedicated PC product. Honest. Swear on a stack of Bibles - really, I would do that- wait, you actually have a stack of Bibles? Oh, errr, actually no, I can't. I just remembered I'm Jewish. So it probably wouldn't mean much," instead of actually doing it. Not only does it save money, but it's good for a laugh back a HQ.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if MS has something to do with it, either.

Yet for some reason, they'll spend millions of dollars working on the DRM (how did THAT work out for ya, Ubisoft?) which will not be cracked for two, possibly even three, minutes.



If our Arie doesn't have the thickest, fattest, dutchiest accent imaginable, this piggy might have to consider not buying.

"We got to get to da choppah-" wait, wrong Dutch.

Van Bruggen. Belgian?

So I suppose it's meant to be pronounced "Broojen."

*Or, rather, Flemish. But the thought of Belgium splitting into two or more parts is simply too outrageous to consider, even for a science fiction game, right? Right? No chance...



It's very masculine.

Hoping to compensate for something, eh? That's what the goal of the gruff, uber-masculine voice choices in all male characters seems to be going for these days...


But also because it's not like the whiny male character's voice in DX2.

Touché.


It was ALL gameplay.

That bit where Adam flies out the window? That bit where we're watching Macho Man's hand morph into a minigun? That bit where we watched Adam rip through a wall? Spike the guards? Jump through the ceiling?


Notice how the player kept moving a little bit during the conversation with the VIP bartender? You're not stuck with a conversation-screen system like, say, Oblivion.

That's a conversation. That's to be expected, since the only interaction I'd expect to be doing is highlighting dialogue choices. That not taking something that would be fun for the player to do out of the player's hands and making them watch while the CPU gets all the entertainment.


Sounds like an excuse for the line "Yeah... you could say that..."

A minor issue; one I'm sure won't make the game bad.

Well, we didn't see too much else regarding dialogue.


The problem with that is that you spend more time reading out exactly what you're character is going to say, instead of going with the flow of the conversation.

I never found that a problem in the original or in any other game. DX's replies were about one sentence long. Ok, Morrowind's were pushing it. Besides, as the player, I say let the player dictate the flow. I didn't like AP's timed responses.


In fact, they do show a minimised version of what you will say, when you highlight the conversation options.

That's good. Didn't notice that. The problem with Alpha Protocol's system was that, for example, Thornton's "Threaten" dialogue might range from "I'm going to cause you a minor inconvenience" to "I'm going to kill you and mail your head to your family." Many a-time I found myself wincing at what Thornton said.


It's not the full thing, but it's bigger than Mass Effect's conversation option simplification.

I can't even remember what Paragon and Renegade points did. So what was the point? ME was made at the high of the Moral Panic, where every game had to have Moral Choices™ in it. Most of the time they did bugger-all. (Bioshock was the worst for over-hyping this, followed closely by GTAIV.)


Me too, I didn't like the control simplification in the PC version of Mass Effect 2 and I won't like it in this game either.

"Radial Menu" is another one of those buzzphrases that makes me throw up. Then again, Mass Effect 2 was grossly simplified compared to its predecessor.

Mindmute
5th Sep 2010, 18:32
They aren't automatic. You stand near something, hold down trigger/RMB, and take cover. Basically, the mechanic works like Rainbow Six Vegas', which is the most fluid and goodly cover-system I've seen yet.

It flows a bit better than I expected, but it's still worse than I hoped, honestly.
I can't see why they couldn't just include lean keys, since it'd be a minor modification, that could work with the current level design as far as we've seen so far. As it stands, their line of saying " 3rd person is contextual and therefore totally optional" has been proven to mean it's totally optional unless you want to stealth properly, participate in gunfights properly or climb any single ladder.

Irate_Iguana
5th Sep 2010, 18:47
If our Arie doesn't have the thickest, fattest, dutchiest accent imaginable, this piggy might have to consider not buying. http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/13.gif

Yeah, one of those thick accents that our politicians have.



Y"We got to get to da choppah-" wait, wrong Dutch.

Van Bruggen. Belgian?

So I suppose it's meant to be pronounced "Broojen."

*Or, rather, Flemish. But the thought of Belgium splitting into two or more parts is simply too outrageous to consider, even for a science fiction game, right? Right? No chance...

Arie van Bruggen sounds like a standard Dutch name. Just because Brugge now lies in Belgium doesn't mean the guys has to be Belgian. Even if he were the name wouldn't be pronounced as Broojen.

Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 18:50
Yeah, parasite mapping (there's probably a better term for it. Symbiote mapping? Siamese Keys? Conjoined Keys, for the more politically correct?) The control system's my second biggest annoyance with ported games. I don't get why they just can't hire a few guys to develop a specific interface for each platform.

There was an article titled "Why Do Games Ported To PC Suck?" in a games mag here and one of the justifications for that was "well, it's how we envision the game." Fair enough, but I do question that vision. When given the choice of, say, selecting a weapon via holding done a key that does something else if only tapped to open a menu, then moving the cursor to "Weapons," then highlighting the weapon, to hitting the OK button, or pulling up the weapon simply one button, which do you think most people would prefer?

Of course, it's easier and cheaper to just have random talking heads say, "No, really, we're taking care in making a dedicated PC product. Honest. Swear on a stack of Bibles - really, I would do that- wait, you actually have a stack of Bibles? Oh, errr, actually no, I can't. I just remembered I'm Jewish. So it probably wouldn't mean much," instead of actually doing it. Not only does it save money, but it's good for a laugh back a HQ.

I love your choice of phrasing for the simplified controls.

:D


I wouldn't be surprised at all if MS has something to do with it, either.

I'm not sure I understand why Microsoft would have something to do with it.


Yet for some reason, they'll spend millions of dollars working on the DRM (how did THAT work out for ya, Ubisoft?) which will not be cracked for two, possibly even three, minutes.

Rockstar's GTA IV PC port is another example of this.

Instead of optimising the game to make it playable with good framerates, they focussed their efforts on that dumb Social Club thing.


Hoping to compensate for something, eh? That's what the goal of the gruff, uber-masculine voice choices in all male characters seems to be going for these days...

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Duke_Nukem_004.jpg


Touché.

Seriously, I can't tolerate his voice.


That bit where Adam flies out the window? That bit where we're watching Macho Man's hand morph into a minigun? That bit where we watched Adam rip through a wall? Spike the guards? Jump through the ceiling?

Right, in-game cutscenes.

It was incorrect to refer to these scenes as gameplay.

But those are just small portions from the demonstration - everything else was live gameplay.


That's a conversation. That's to be expected, since the only interaction I'd expect to be doing is highlighting dialogue choices. That not taking something that would be fun for the player to do out of the player's hands and making them watch while the CPU gets all the entertainment.

At least we can have some movement in the conversations. Games like Oblivion and Fallout freeze the world around you as your vision zooms in on the ugly face of the person talking to you.


I never found that a problem in the original or in any other game. DX's replies were about one sentence long. Ok, Morrowind's were pushing it. Besides, as the player, I say let the player dictate the flow. I didn't like AP's timed responses.

Yeah, one-sentence long options are better than many lines of text to read through.

As for Morrowind, I can't say I have played it, but I have played Oblivion and Fallout 3.


That's good. Didn't notice that. The problem with Alpha Protocol's system was that, for example, Thornton's "Threaten" dialogue might range from "I'm going to cause you a minor inconvenience" to "I'm going to kill you and mail your head to your family." Many a-time I found myself wincing at what Thornton said.

That's generally the problem when you simplify what your character will say into a short sentence or a word.


I can't even remember what Paragon and Renegade points did. So what was the point? ME was made at the high of the Moral Panic, where every game had to have Moral Choices™ in it. Most of the time they did bugger-all. (Bioshock was the worst for over-hyping this, followed closely by GTAIV.)

What I meant to say was how the dialogue summaries in this game appear to be more detailed than Mass Effect's.


"Radial Menu" is another one of those buzzphrases that makes me throw up. Then again, Mass Effect 2 was grossly simplified compared to its predecessor.

I'm indifferent to radial menus.

Sometimes it works (vocal commands in Left 4 Dead) and other times it doesn't (I can't think of a good enough example for this).


It flows a bit better than I expected, but it's still worse than I hoped, honestly.
I can't see why they couldn't just include lean keys, since it'd be a minor modification, that could work with the current level design as far as we've seen so far. As it stands, their line of saying " 3rd person is contextual and therefore totally optional" has been proven to mean it's totally optional unless you want to stealth properly, participate in gunfights properly or climb any single ladder.

I asked about leaning, on Twitter, and got this reply:


New community manager here. While I personally can't confirm or deny anything, hang on to that question for a future Q&A. :)

Well, let's wait on it.

Mindmute
5th Sep 2010, 19:02
I asked about leaning, on Twitter, and got this reply:

Well, let's wait on it.

So far all we had about that angle was silence, so if even the slightest chance of this is possible, I'm looking forward to more info even though I'm afraid that's just a PR repply for "I can't comment on anything right now".
Thanks for the heads up on that by the way!

Bushmonster
5th Sep 2010, 19:03
that twitter reply makes me optimistic

Donvermicelli
5th Sep 2010, 19:04
This game is all about playing it the way you want to play it.
So I want to play without regeneration and third person that's possible?

I must honestly say there's a lot of things that I like here: manual keypad entry no too futuristic environment but still. The take downs break immersion in some places, the double take down looked cool I admit but that is not why it should be used. I think adding first person perspective to take downs would at least return much of the immersion that is lost. First person ladder climbing would also a good idea.

the jethelicopter thing? Dunno what it was but seems rather random to me seeing that they are supposedly using regular helicopters years later during the events of DX1.

Still the majority of what I saw I liked.

Mindmute
5th Sep 2010, 19:12
the jethelicopter thing? Dunno what it was but seems rather random to me seeing that they are supposedly using regular helicopters years later during the events of DX1.


It didn't look too futuristic for two decades from now, considering what aeronautical engineering can do nowadays already.

Don't forget that while Jock's chopper looked normal, in order to traverse those distances in that timeframe, it had to be supersonic. That's as odd as adding a chopper like the one seen on DX:HR as far as I'm concerned.

Red
5th Sep 2010, 19:13
Lean keys soon to be more greenlit than ever before.

Ilves
5th Sep 2010, 19:23
So far all we had about that angle was silence, so if even the slightest chance of this is possible, I'm looking forward to more info.
Thanks for the heads up on that by the way!

It would be such a humble solution to such a huge community issue. If leaning is in, and crouching in 1st person near an object/wall provides Adam with both FOV cover and cover from gunfire, then 'working around' the nasty 3rd person cover is a viable option. :thumb: Still doesn't fix the takedowns, of course.



So I suppose it's meant to be pronounced "Broojen."

Flemish dutch is perfectly beautiful and elegant (relative to Dutch dutch, that is), as it leaves out those god-awful guttural 'g' and 'r' sounds, but "Broojen"... no. I'm pretty sure a name like Arie van Bruggen only reaches its full glory when pronounced with the finest of Amsterdamian accents. :P


Yeah, one of those thick accents that our politicians have.

I was thinking more along the lines of our soccer players, but they're pretty much in the same league. Well, almost. :D

pringlepower
5th Sep 2010, 19:33
I can't even remember what Paragon and Renegade points did. So what was the point? ME was made at the high of the Moral Panic, where every game had to have Moral Choices™ in it. Most of the time they did bugger-all. (Bioshock was the worst for over-hyping this, followed closely by GTAIV.)



"Radial Menu" is another one of those buzzphrases that makes me throw up. Then again, Mass Effect 2 was grossly simplified compared to its predecessor.

Both moral choices and radial menu aren't Bioware catering to the masses. They've always done moral choices, it's Bioware's calling card by now. And the radial menu debuted in Neverwinter Nights, in 2002, for PC.

IOOI
5th Sep 2010, 20:16
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Duke_Nukem_004.jpg

Hehe. That doesn't count. It's like parodying a parody. Duke Nukem is precisely that, a caricature of masculinity.
He's just a funny character. Not to be taken as a model. lol

Slack
5th Sep 2010, 20:33
Man, I agree with the majority of points that Warren Spector commented.

pringlepower
5th Sep 2010, 20:43
Anyone else have the video just stop working?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Sep 2010, 20:50
Anyone else have the video just stop working?

Yes. :(

DeusWhatever
5th Sep 2010, 21:38
Damn you Eidos and Gamespot ...
Its really horribly annyoing to hit the refresh button all 5 seconds while still nothing will happen ... :confused:

Dr_Bob
5th Sep 2010, 21:46
Damn you Eidos and Gamespot ...
Its really horribly annyoing to hit the refresh button all 5 seconds while still nothing will happen ... :confused:

Try this:


For those with a problem jumping to the 16.06 part:
press the five bars at the bottom right (where it will say your streaming bitrate), and choose "Dynamic Streaming". (Edit: also works with "Static Streaming")

In the meantime, I am uploading this conference to YouTube in 4 parts.

Expect them all to be fully uploaded and processed tomorrow.

dixieflatline
5th Sep 2010, 23:49
Personally going to stay clear of any footage until the game comes out. I don't want to get tired of seeing the 3rd person take downs before I even start playing :)

DeusWhatever
5th Sep 2010, 23:59
Well now the video isnt even on the site anymore, if this is another action of eidos-we-dont-want-people-on-the-internet-to-see-this-bull**** ... :mad2:


Honestly if this is really what i think it is eidos is forcing me to the point where i will just ignore the game, adds and whatever will come from deus ex or eidos in the future for the sole purpose of not supporting such stupidity.

(if it is just a technical error what i said above is not relevant ...)

Cronstintein
6th Sep 2010, 02:32
^ Ok I feel slightly less stupid for not being able to find it now, wish I had checked last post first.

pringlepower
6th Sep 2010, 02:47
Try this:

Expect them all to be fully uploaded and processed tomorrow.

Yay! Thanks.

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 02:49
It makes perfect sense that Eidos would send its crack shutdown team for video from an open press event taken by a major legitimate reviewing website.

And now is not the time to argue whether Gamespot is legitimate.

chris watters's reviews make gamespot illegitimate :D

Coyotegrey
6th Sep 2010, 02:51
Sorry for not posting lately. I've been crazy busy here at PAX.

The video was taken down due to the embargo on the new trailer for Final Fantasy XIV. I'm trying to secure the archival footage from the venue so we can just release the Deus Ex demonstration, including the crash.

And yeah, this was pre-alpha footage. Some of you have also commented on how I took the same path as the one in the leaked video... Yep. I did. We're trying to show a variety of different gameplay elements and ways of tackling situations. I don't think everyone would want to see me stealthing through combat situations and/or talking my way out of everything (my preferred method of play). In the future I hope to show examples of this, though.

pringlepower
6th Sep 2010, 02:57
chris watters's reviews make gamespot illegitimate :D

Van Oord my friend. The jolly one.

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 02:59
i dont think ive seen much of his reviews, but to be honest i dont rely on game critics to decide what game im buying

Sabretooth1
6th Sep 2010, 03:34
Sorry for not posting lately. I've been crazy busy here at PAX.

The video was taken down due to the embargo on the new trailer for Final Fantasy XIV. I'm trying to secure the archival footage from the venue so we can just release the Deus Ex demonstration, including the crash.

And yeah, this was pre-alpha footage. Some of you have also commented on how I took the same path as the one in the leaked video... Yep. I did. We're trying to show a variety of different gameplay elements and ways of tackling situations. I don't think everyone would want to see me stealthing through combat situations and/or talking my way out of everything (my preferred method of play). In the future I hope to show examples of this, though.

Thanks, I didn't watch the Gamespot video anyway. No way am I going to slug through half an hour of FF just to get to Human Revolution.

For those who saw the video, is it the exact same as the leaked footage or is there anything new?

Nyysjan
6th Sep 2010, 03:40
Sorry for not posting lately. I've been crazy busy here at PAX.

The video was taken down due to the embargo on the new trailer for Final Fantasy XIV. I'm trying to secure the archival footage from the venue so we can just release the Deus Ex demonstration, including the crash.

And yeah, this was pre-alpha footage. Some of you have also commented on how I took the same path as the one in the leaked video... Yep. I did. We're trying to show a variety of different gameplay elements and ways of tackling situations. I don't think everyone would want to see me stealthing through combat situations and/or talking my way out of everything (my preferred method of play). In the future I hope to show examples of this, though.

You do realise that, in context, this comes out as "we want to show different parts of the game, so we showed you excactly what we have showed before", right?
You could have used different routes, but in different order, say, succesfully talk to Tong, fight your way in for the first part of the docks, stealth the second, or, fight your way in at the bar, stealth (and talk, if possible) in the docks
Now better excuse would have been "we're trying to avoid spoilers".;)

pringlepower
6th Sep 2010, 04:41
Thanks, I didn't watch the Gamespot video anyway. No way am I going to slug through half an hour of FF just to get to Human Revolution.

For those who saw the video, is it the exact same as the leaked footage or is there anything new?

Exact same. However, in the leaked footage the guy's head conveniently blocked the entire conversation interface (it's just diamonds, one for each D-pad button I assume for one of four responses).

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 06:19
It didn't look too futuristic for two decades from now, considering what aeronautical engineering can do nowadays already.

Don't forget that while Jock's chopper looked normal, in order to traverse those distances in that timeframe, it had to be supersonic. That's as odd as adding a chopper like the one seen on DX:HR as far as I'm concerned.

Deusex didn't have a set time frame where they actually told you the time it took Jock from getting to point A to B, they could all have been time skips.

While I do agree that all that is shown is possible in the near future, it simply seems weird considering a 'sequel' to the game features more low-tech machinery than it's prequel.

lithos
6th Sep 2010, 06:30
Both moral choices and radial menu aren't Bioware catering to the masses. They've always done moral choices, it's Bioware's calling card by now. And the radial menu debuted in Neverwinter Nights, in 2002, for PC.

Oh, I absolutely - it was more the level of hype behind it. Playing Baldur's Gate 2 shows that they've always done, done it well, and without making a big fuss about it (because they believe it's a natural part of the game they've made.)

It just seemed a bit simplified in ME2. But it was worse in GTAIV and Bioshock, much worse, because they never shut the hell up about them. Bioshock's one and only moral choice was killing some, all or none of the Little Sisters. Result? A slightly different cutscene at the end of the game. GTAIV's was even worse: in only one mission did you actually make a choice. Afterward, a message pops up saying "This may haunt you!" except nothing ever happened again.

BG did it well, opening up or closing off vast possibilities - Bioware backed up the choices with significant penalties or rewards.


I love your choice of phrasing for the simplified controls.

What really bugs me is that isn't it easier to code one control to one button rather than "If the key is pressed for less than 1 second, then X happens. If key is pressed and held then Y happens." Dunno. Maybe the coders are masochists.

The flashlight in Fallout 3 really bugged me - why should something so basic and necessary to the game be so hard to turn on? How can you make a torch hard to use? I think it's laziness on the devs' part, and if you're complaining about lack of sales on PC, how about giving us a reason to buy the PC version over the console versions?


I'm not sure I understand why Microsoft would have something to do with it.

They generally like to protect their main platform, hence the delayed PC releases for many games, the achievements, and the constant trend to push the PC as a mere gateway drug for Xbox. They'd better do something about Windows gaming soon, because gaming's the main reason why people haven't moved to Linux. Or worse, Mac.


Rockstar's GTA IV PC port is another example of this.

Instead of optimising the game to make it playable with good framerates, they focussed their efforts on that dumb Social Club thing.

Oh, gods, yes. Starting that game was painful. Click on icon, launch game? Oh no, not for GTAIV! Instead, sign in for GFWL (I'm still not sure what GFWL does, apart from crash,) and then, with a completely different account, sign in with RGSC! Out of principle, I wish I could completely turn such things off. I don't care about sharing pointless clips of the longest wheelie I've done or whatever. And the only incentive I need to play the game is the game itself, not proving whether or not I'm a better gamer than someone twelve-year-old white kid with a name like "tHuG_4_LiFe." (I mightn't be a better gamer. I know I'm a better person.)

Or you could just bypass the whole thing by disconnecting from the internet, which makes me wonder about its purpose. I resent the social aspect of gaming everyone's trying to do; especially with singleplayer. I generally stay away from multiplayer. I don't give a damn about achievements, or whether some random guy in Kentucky has finished the game before me, or has bought the new DLC.

Of course, RGSC was just an attempt to polish a turd (ie, DRM. Which was cracked, anyway. I thought people who made computer programs were meant to have good pattern recognition skills?) And I'm literally at a loss for words about their graphics options.

I hope HR doesn't use GFWL. It's a useless piece of pointless middleware. The greatest mod ever made for Fallout 3 was the one that joyously deleted GFWL.


Right, in-game cutscenes.

It was incorrect to refer to these scenes as gameplay.

But those are just small portions from the demonstration - everything else was live gameplay.

Such set pieces and cut scenes are a bandaid for not making the gameplay interesting or exciting enough in their own right. Then again, I suppose we're dealing with a whole generation of players who think that's what games are, and who approach digital entertainment from a passive perspective of movies and TV than as a form of truly interactive entertainment.


At least we can have some movement in the conversations. Games like Oblivion and Fallout freeze the world around you as your vision zooms in on the ugly face of the person talking to you.

Again, conversations aren't bad. It's when the game takes something that would be fun for the player to do out of the player's hands is when it becomes a problem, like the cut scene where Jensen jumps out the window. You're not living that moment; you're watching it.


Yeah, one-sentence long options are better than many lines of text to read through.

What's so bad about reading a few sentences?


What I meant to say was how the dialogue summaries in this game appear to be more detailed than Mass Effect's.

Very true. And ME's dialogue choices seemed to result in little difference in the outcome. They simply opened up more of the story (which is nice, don't get me wrong.)


I'm indifferent to radial menus.

I'm not good enough at finger-yoga to pull some of them off, though.


Sometimes it works (vocal commands in Left 4 Dead) and other times it doesn't (I can't think of a good enough example for this).

AP's were pretty confusing, but then again, that's mostly because Steam's inconsistent about where to download the manual for a game. Some have it the store's page, some have it as a right-click option on the game in the game library. I thought Obsidian were just being dicks when I couldn't do that, since that's how you got the manual in Just Cause 2.


Hehe. That doesn't count. It's like parodying a parody. Duke Nukem is precisely that, a caricature of masculinity. He's just a funny character. Not to be taken as a model. lol

Exactly. He's a parody of such characters - eighties action heroes ("MENDOZAAAAAA!") It's when it's done with a straight face, it's annoying. Think the DudeBro Rangers in MW2 (although that was probably Infinity W- er, Activision pandering to their audience.)



While I do agree that all that is shown is possible in the near future, it simply seems weird considering a 'sequel' to the game features more low-tech machinery than it's prequel.

That's the weird thing. DX was brilliant because it's exactly how things would probably look in the future. Buildings last for years - or centuries, millennia even - and it's perfectly reasonable to expect a building built in 1980 would be around in the 2050s. Building's don't change that fast. Same goes for the armour - which has everyone got full-body exoskeletons in 2027, when in 2054, they're still (or rather, back to) using vests?

pringlepower
6th Sep 2010, 06:49
Deusex didn't have a set time frame where they actually told you the time it took Jock from getting to point A to B, they could all have been time skips.

While I do agree that all that is shown is possible in the near future, it simply seems weird considering a 'sequel' to the game features more low-tech machinery than it's prequel.

The first time you fly with Jock, you have a 24-hour killswitch. Flying from NY to HK in 24 hours is definitely ridiculous for a helicopter, no matter how special its fuel is.

rokstrombo
6th Sep 2010, 07:04
It's good to see a decent quality video of the demo, although a lot of detail was lost in the darkened areas of the screen due to compression.

The environments look absolutely fantastic, and the attention to detail is outstanding. The Hengsha area appears to be considerably larger than the area traversed in the demo.

The facial animation appears to be thoughtfully choreographed, and the social component of gameplay seems to be far superior to the original game (I'm excited!). The main issue I noticed with the facial animation though was that the NPCs don't always appear to track their conversation partner's eyes very convincingly. In the conversation with Tong, I noticed that Tong often appeared to be addressing someone to the left of Adam: "Really? Well I'm sorry gweilo, but Mr Tong Se Hong sees no one today." It appears that the eye-tracking system cannot fully compensate for the degree of transverse rotation of Tong's head relative to Adam that was shown in this part of the demo. In other words, Tong was facing too far to the left for his eyes to track Adam's eyes correctly. Hopefully this can be tweaked a little before release.

Secondly, although eye contact is not always mandatory, NPC body language should preferentially orientate with the character they are speaking with. For example, the bouncer outside The Hive was looking around furtively (or perhaps suspiciously) at times where I expected him to hold his gaze steadily an Adam's eyes. He couldn't even say "Here is your membership card. Welcome to The Hive!" without appearing to lose his train of thought and glance at several places off in the distance. It appears that the "furtive animation sequence" was employed at inappropriate times during this conversation. I wouldn't expect a bouncer to be so uneasy about lying to an unwanted patron.

I felt that the music in the The Hive was too quiet relative to the loudness of the conversations. I think the scene would have been more atmospheric if the music was somewhat more distorted and echoey, and the voices were somewhat strained. Perhaps the upstairs VIP area could be a little quieter than main room below.

I still feel that the transitions between the first person perspective and third person perspective were disorienting at times. I think this could be reduced by improving body awareness. For example, the third person camera could very quickly pan back to the original first person perspective following the use of takedowns and third person cover, and Adam should be shown briefly returning to his original pose. Additionally, first person animations with sound for actions such as bracing, jumping, vaulting, opening doors/windows, and raising/lowering/holstering weapons would improve consistency between the first and third person perspectives. Currently, the third person takedowns are visually extravagant, while the first person representations (view bob, body awareness, opening windows or sighting the target with the assault rifle, for example) are either non-existent or quite plain. It may also help if Adam's augmentations and clothing made more sounds during normal movement.

Looking forward to seeing more from the game!

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 07:37
That's the weird thing. DX was brilliant because it's exactly how things would probably look in the future. Buildings last for years - or centuries, millennia even - and it's perfectly reasonable to expect a building built in 1980 would be around in the 2050s. Building's don't change that fast. Same goes for the armour - which has everyone got full-body exoskeletons in 2027, when in 2054, they're still (or rather, back to) using vests? That's exactly my point, EA annoyed the ***** out of me with C&C 3 when GDI was using tanks?! While in the time frame before that they had fully transitioned to mechs? And NOD's Stealth generator losing the ability to cloak itself? What's the point of a stealth generator that's visible? Sure some things might seem cool and stuff but gamers have a right be treated as individuals who actually think with logic, and above given examples are devoid of any logic at all.

pringlepower
6th Sep 2010, 07:41
That's exactly my point, EA annoyed the ***** out of me with C&C 3 when GDI was using tanks?! While in the time frame before that they had fully transitioned to mechs? And NOD's Stealth generator losing the ability to cloak itself? What's the point of a stealth generator that's visible? Sure some things might seem cool and stuff but gamers have a right be treated as individuals who actually think with logic, and above given examples are devoid of any logic at all.

They built what, one Mammoth Mk II in Tiberian Sun? It makes sense to decommission giant, unwieldy hardware. And the Mammoth Tank is a Tiberian staple. And they're just being cool? By removing the "cool" giant elephant walking mech and replacing it with a feasible tank?

And there was plenty of logic in having the Ion Cannon shoot more than a 10 m radius for a change and actually become a nice weapon.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Sep 2010, 07:59
Sorry for not posting lately. I've been crazy busy here at PAX.

The video was taken down due to the embargo on the new trailer for Final Fantasy XIV. I'm trying to secure the archival footage from the venue so we can just release the Deus Ex demonstration, including the crash.

And yeah, this was pre-alpha footage. Some of you have also commented on how I took the same path as the one in the leaked video... Yep. I did. We're trying to show a variety of different gameplay elements and ways of tackling situations. I don't think everyone would want to see me stealthing through combat situations and/or talking my way out of everything (my preferred method of play). In the future I hope to show examples of this, though.

Thanks for update, Kyle. :thumb:

Irate_Iguana
6th Sep 2010, 08:44
it seems they have taken out bio-energy

Nah, it is still sort of in there. Adam has a number of "energy pips" that he can use to power his augmentations. At least one of these will always regenerate. In order to stock up on BE you need to eat nutrient bars, which makes no sense. The easiest solution was to use BE cells, so of course EM decided against that.



It would be such a humble solution to such a huge community issue. If leaning is in, and crouching in 1st person near an object/wall provides Adam with both FOV cover and cover from gunfire, then 'working around' the nasty 3rd person cover is a viable option. :thumb: Still doesn't fix the takedowns, of course.

Lots of games with 3rd person cover don't really register it well when you are behind an obstacle but not in cover. I'm having a hard time believing that leaning will make it into the game and an even harder time believing that it will actually turn out to be useful rather than something thrown in as a superficial way to please those whiners on the forum.



The facial animation appears to be thoughtfully choreographed, and the social component of gameplay seems to be far superior to the original game (I'm excited!).

While I agree that the social component seems to be very much superior to the original, I'm failing to find these thoughtfully choreographed facial animations. Most of the people he spoke too had the same blank stare on their face the entire time. The only person with a bit of facial animation was Tong and there wasn't a whole lot of expression to see on his face.

Bono
6th Sep 2010, 09:01
When it's a first person game about talking, sneaking or hacking around (The Hive part), it looks gorgeous. This game's design kicks ass.

When it's a third person game about rolling between covers and takedowns (the docks part), it looks like a way too bombastic action game for teenagers. Jensen climbing up ladder with the speed of light is one of the most awkward scenes I've seen for a while.

I don't think I remember any other game that manages to combine absolutely amazing things with absolutely idiotic things. While the original Deus Ex was a seamless transition between talks and fights, HR looks like a game unskillfully combined from incompatible ingridients.

Dr_Bob
6th Sep 2010, 10:06
Have no fear guys, I have updated the first post with YouTube links.


Sorry for not posting lately. I've been crazy busy here at PAX.

The video was taken down due to the embargo on the new trailer for Final Fantasy XIV. I'm trying to secure the archival footage from the venue so we can just release the Deus Ex demonstration, including the crash.

Kyle, please confirm whether you want me to remove part 1, which contains that Final Fantasy XIV trailer.

Fortunately, part 1 contains nothing from the Deus Ex presentation.

Tecman
6th Sep 2010, 10:55
Thanks for rehosting these, also, can't wait for the final part where they retry the Hive section. :)

avenging_teabag
6th Sep 2010, 11:01
Have no fear guys, I have updated the first post with YouTube links.

Thanks a bunch, watching it now.

Mindmute
6th Sep 2010, 11:34
Deusex didn't have a set time frame where they actually told you the time it took Jock from getting to point A to B, they could all have been time skips.

While I do agree that all that is shown is possible in the near future, it simply seems weird considering a 'sequel' to the game features more low-tech machinery than it's prequel.

When you arrive at Hong Kong, Jock tells you that your killswitch is 12 hours long, so there is a timeframe, considering that after it gets switched on you have to get captured, escape from Unatco and then travel to Hong Kong in those 12 hours.

beastrn
6th Sep 2010, 11:46
I dunno if this has been discussed but the fact that she's standing there talking about "how the game allows you to pick which way you will progress through the game via the 4 pillars of gameplay" etc just makes me sick.

Way to seriously ruin any sense of fantasy or immersion when you're detailing everything out in dot points.

Consoles.

puzl
6th Sep 2010, 12:46
Keep crying. Warren Spectre embraces consoles and wants more casual gamers :lol:

Dr_Bob
6th Sep 2010, 13:05
The final part is up, guys!

Sorry for the wait!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XdZbIq5Mg

Bono
6th Sep 2010, 14:36
I dunno if this has been discussed but the fact that she's standing there talking about "how the game allows you to pick which way you will progress through the game via the 4 pillars of gameplay" etc just makes me sick.

Way to seriously ruin any sense of fantasy or immersion when you're detailing everything out in dot points.

Word.

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Sep 2010, 14:39
Keep crying. Warren Spectre embraces consoles and wants more casual gamers :lol:

Way to completely misinterpret everything he said.

His sentiments were that the current glut of casual games as opposed to everything else would soon normalise, like other historical media, meaning that soon enough the usual, broad selection of niches will begin to materialise again, so there'll be something for everyone. Unlike now.

MrFoxter
6th Sep 2010, 16:10
Has anyone noticed? The non-lethal takedown in a basement of The Hive has been modified to be more immersive. Compare it to the leaked footage. The switch to TPS is not so brutal now. What do you think, is it possible that our cries was (though partially) answered?

Old takedown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf63LPpDkBI&t=9m40s

New takedown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XdZbIq5Mg&t=5m39s

EDIT: Added old takedown for those who hadn't seen it yet.

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 16:14
I guess it was probably a takedown that too short to go into full third person, the others seemed way more 'cinematic' But I could be wrong, maybe our vain cries were heard and they decided to see how it would work out.

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 16:57
i think it was because of a confined space, rather than being short

rashal
6th Sep 2010, 17:05
The 3rd person during gameplay just looks and feels bad, especially the transitions. I have no idea why EM insists on this crap. The takedowns aren't bad though, considering you can decide when to activate them and only if you get close to an unsuspecting enemy.

I hope they upgraded the NPC's since the pre-alpha, because in the footage they look much like NPC's from oblivion. But the thing that bothered me most was the patrolling guard in the hive's basement. It's the dumbest, most unrealistic thing that deus ex has plenty of - guards patrolling over a distance of 10 meters just walking back and forth in a route with the smallest possible field of view, waiting to get stabbed in the back instead of standing or sitting in a strategic position that actually makes them useful.

MrFoxter
6th Sep 2010, 17:08
Old takedown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf63LPpDkBI&t=9m40s

New takedown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XdZbIq5Mg&t=5m39s

I've added old takedown so you guys can compare.

TrickyVein
6th Sep 2010, 17:12
^^ Nice catch, there. I suppose it's true that foxes are sly.

They are different - the newer 3rd person takedown doesn't bring the camera out nearly as far than the previous animation/cinematic takedown did.

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 17:13
it does seem like they cleaned it up a bit

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Sep 2010, 17:18
Hallelujah. All we need is to keep moving the camera back until it actually, y'know, is inside Adam's head. Behind the sunglasses.

Although, to be fair, I didn't actually mind that second one.

Anyone remember Hitman, when it moved into third person (if you were in first person) for interactions? That was bad. But that was because IO weren't given enough time to make 1st person animations that were any good, so they left them out entirely. You could also play Hitman in entirely third person if you wanted.

Nope, here, we get forced into the transition. Man, if I only I could express how annoying it is in Hitman when it happens...

Ilves
6th Sep 2010, 17:20
^ Maybe there's a slight random element to the takedowns, like camera angles? Never really got what the takedowns being contextual is supposed to mean, maybe this is an instance of that.

Perhaps it simply means that the takedown that gets played differs per augs and gear. :scratch:

Mindmute
6th Sep 2010, 17:22
^ Maybe there's a slight random element to the takedowns, like camera angles? Never really got what the whole mentioned contextuality is supposed to mean, maybe this is an instance of that.

It's supposed to mean that rather than being fully scripted to just happen in a way, the takedown that happens is based on your position (and speed?) relative to the target and on your choice between lethal or non-lethal.

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 17:34
^ What pretentious old man said.

MrFoxter
6th Sep 2010, 18:03
Anyone remember Hitman, when it moved into third person (if you were in first person) for interactions? That was bad. But that was because IO weren't given enough time to make 1st person animations that were any good, so they left them out entirely. You could also play Hitman in entirely third person if you wanted.

Nope, here, we get forced into the transition. Man, if I only I could express how annoying it is in Hitman when it happens...

Sorry, I played Hitman: Silent Assassin just a lil bit, so I can't say.



Hallelujah. All we need is to keep moving the camera back until it actually, y'know, is inside Adam's head. Behind the sunglasses.

Although, to be fair, I didn't actually mind that second one.


You mean new one?

I personally don't like the camera moving through head. In this way, the old one seemed more fluid and smooth. On the other hand, the old one threw you totally out of your position to see takedown from other side. In this way, new one is definitely better, not destroying immersion too much. Conclusion: I'd keep the new one, but let camera smoothly return to its position without flying through Adam's head! (and include a pack of popcorn in collector's edition :D)

IH-Denton
6th Sep 2010, 18:46
WOA!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdEvgns8B4&t=10m18s

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 18:49
haha, yeah thankfully thats pre alpha

Shralla
6th Sep 2010, 18:56
I dunno if this has been discussed but the fact that she's standing there talking about "how the game allows you to pick which way you will progress through the game via the 4 pillars of gameplay" etc just makes me sick.

Way to seriously ruin any sense of fantasy or immersion when you're detailing everything out in dot points.

Consoles.

What? Spelling out everything in dot points at a conference/expo? WHO'D HAVE THUNK IT?

Seriously, of all the ***** you could complain about, that's really the tiniest, most insignificant speck of nothing involved in this game.

As a side note, they still haven't fixed the whole punching through the wall takedown. He still runs up to it in first-person, and then the animation shows him standing there like an idiot before he punches through it.

IH-Denton
6th Sep 2010, 19:00
pre-alpha? But I thought: "all maps and features is complete, it is all about balancing, stabilizing and re-finding bugs..." - by Jean-Francois Degas in this last video-interview (at 3m30s) http://gamescom.gamespot.com/video/6274168/#toggle_video

MrFoxter
6th Sep 2010, 19:09
It's pre alpha version of the game, same one that was presented on E3. They don't show us the latest version. Or you really DO THINK that they changed only one takedown and added one crash during nearly three months they had from E3? :D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Sep 2010, 19:11
What? Spelling out everything in dot points at a conference/expo? WHO'D HAVE THUNK IT?
Seriously, of all the ***** you could complain about, that's really the tiniest, most insignificant speck of nothing involved in this game.


Is it too obvious that his response was just so he could hate on consoles at the end of his speech? Naughty. :D


PS. Sssh, don't say anything but there's a rumour going around that some people here are members of "Purity First". :eek:


























:naughty:

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 19:15
im not exactly what each stage is but there is about 6 months till game release and im sure bugs like that will be fixed

puzl
6th Sep 2010, 21:42
Way to completely misinterpret everything he said.

His sentiments were that the current glut of casual games as opposed to everything else would soon normalise, like other historical media, meaning that soon enough the usual, broad selection of niches will begin to materialise again, so there'll be something for everyone. Unlike now.

No, hes blaming consoles for something that was inevitable from the start. Every single medium dilutes/simplifies/streamlines when it gains popularity, just like your hero Warren says. Consoles aren't to blame for this and i'm sure PC games would have followed the same path if they were still the most popular medium to play games on.

In other words, blaming consoles for everything you hate about gaming is retarded.

NKD
6th Sep 2010, 22:21
Thanks for posting! This looks absolutely fantastic, despite the darkness of the levels kind of washing out details. The gameplay itself seems amazing.

MechBFP
6th Sep 2010, 23:28
No, hes blaming consoles for something that was inevitable from the start. Every single medium dilutes/simplifies/streamlines when it gains popularity, just like your hero Warren says. Consoles aren't to blame for this and i'm sure PC games would have followed the same path if they were still the most popular medium to play games on.

In other words, blaming consoles for everything you hate about gaming is retarded.

Since it's true I would say it is unfortunate rather than retarded.

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 23:30
i wouldnt say consoles, i would say its because of the majority of people who play consoles

Rindill the Red
6th Sep 2010, 23:37
i wouldnt say consoles, i would say its because of the majority of people who play consoles

It's not the majority of the people who play consoles, it's the developers... they are in complete control of what product they put out.

Bushmonster
6th Sep 2010, 23:39
i guess are two posts could be linked

the developers catering to the wrong audience waters down the quality

jtr7
6th Sep 2010, 23:43
Way to completely misinterpret everything he said.

His sentiments were that the current glut of casual games as opposed to everything else would soon normalise, like other historical media, meaning that soon enough the usual, broad selection of niches will begin to materialise again, so there'll be something for everyone. Unlike now.

Yeah, right now there seems to be big pressure from gamers to have every epic game include something for everyone, and a belief it doesn't dilute the experience overall. Games with an established genesis in intentionally avoiding specific game-mechanics and aesthetics are decried as "old" and "lame" and "unevolved." Rather than having a diversity of games for different experiences, all the diversity is demanded to be in the games at once, even if previous titles already provide unusual and balanced diversity as it is.

Coyotegrey
7th Sep 2010, 01:47
I can confirm the game is DEFINITELY not as dark as it appears in the video. Remember, this isn't direct-feed.

Fluffis
7th Sep 2010, 02:34
I can confirm the game is DEFINITELY not as dark as it appears in the video. Remember, this isn't direct-feed.

Honestly, I don't think anyone thought so. It's just that it's sad it almost completely covered up some of the action.

phlebas
7th Sep 2010, 02:36
I loved every minute of it. If I wasn't so busy with job and school I really would've flew out to Seattle to catch DX3 at PAX.

The art direction certainly stood out. It makes Mass Effect series games look old and clunky, though we'll have to wait and see how the game looks like in person to say anything for certain.

I don't really see any problem with how game control works, at least based on the video I've seen. Even the third person part wasn't so bad. I just hope it doesn't take too much time playing back those in-game action animations though, watching enemies fall in slow motion will get old the hundredth time you do it.

The part where Adam broke through the wall to break the guard's neck felt a little questionable. How will the player be able to tell a breakable wall from unbreakable ones? It was also a little weird to see another guard directly on top of the warehouse/supply closet completely unable to hear the walls breaking below his feet. I want to see more of artificial intelligence for the npcs at work, and how they react to events around them.

lithos
7th Sep 2010, 02:58
The part where Adam broke through the wall to break the guard's neck felt a little questionable. How will the player be able to tell a breakable wall from unbreakable ones?

Because a big, fat tooltip'll pop up on-screen saying "YOU CAN BREAK THIS WALL." Well, more or less:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/stephen_macquarie/Random/Scan-100901-0001.jpg

LoverEidy
7th Sep 2010, 03:04
I'm personally not liking Adam's voice actor. Got less range than a fart-powered spud gun. I'm reminded of that Penny-Arcade comic about Prince of Persia: "I smolder with generic rage." Franke did dark with JC, but also managed a whole gamut of emotions - sarcastic, worried, cautious, confident...also, this year, I learned that Franke actually WAS an actor before working for Ion Storm.
.


Really? Because I like his voice! The guy obviously has range considering all of the clips of him on youtube. So I'll reserve judgement on the range of his acting until I see....I dunno....more than five lines. People love to pick on things. I also LOVE the voice of the Asian guy. Very realistic....the british cockney guy is just ok.

jordan_a
7th Sep 2010, 03:06
Project IGI.
wow someone else played that. :D

lithos
7th Sep 2010, 03:10
wow someone else played that. :D

The. Most. Frustrating. Game. Ever.

No saves + randomly spawning enemies, who pop into rooms you cleared not ten seconds before. But good. To bad they replaced the voice actor in the sequel.

KSingh77
7th Sep 2010, 03:12
Won't Adam alert other guards after punching through the wall?

Cause it looks like it caused one big boom.

FrankCSIS
7th Sep 2010, 03:13
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/stephen_macquarie/Random/Scan-100901-0001.jpg

Are those "perform takedown"-"perform kill" buttons confirmed, or is that an ill-intended montage? I didn't see any of this in the footages, and I sure as hell hope they are not in the actual game.

WildcatPhoenix
7th Sep 2010, 03:34
That pic in the middle is from Alpha Protocol, I believe.

rokstrombo
7th Sep 2010, 04:35
While I agree that the social component seems to be very much superior to the original, I'm failing to find these thoughtfully choreographed facial animations. Most of the people he spoke too had the same blank stare on their face the entire time. The only person with a bit of facial animation was Tong and there wasn't a whole lot of expression to see on his face.

What I mean by thoughtfully choreographed animations is that while the body language of Tong was a bit stiff and exagerrated, his movements deliberately corrosponded with the hints he was intended to communicate. For example, Tong freezes when Adam first says "Arie van Bruggen" indicating that the name was recognised, and then looks to the side as Adam says "Have you heard of him?", which indicates that he was considering deceit. Later, when Adam says "The people hunting van Bruggen work on an international scale", Tong rolls his eyes and turns away indicating that he is not impressed by Adam's apparent naivety. Tong's retort however commences with "Don't bull**** a bull****ter", which indicates instead that he is testing Adam to see whether he is indeed naive or whether he may actually have something important to say. The player fails to recognise this and chooses to "Pinpoint" again, and Tong calls Adam's bluff and ends the conversation.

The reason why this impressed me was that this is not something a lot of games attempt to do. While the animation may be a little awkward at times, I think it could add significantly to the depth of gameplay and the player's feeling of immersion in the game's world.

I don't think we saw enough of the other NPCs in conversation to really see whether their animation contributed much to what they were intended to communicate, although the bouncer was obviously trying a bit too hard to seem unimpressed.

lithos
7th Sep 2010, 04:39
That pic in the middle is from Alpha Protocol, I believe.

Good call. I never noticed that. I should've, because PCPP is notoriously poorly-written (a ton of spelling mistakes per issue, references to text that is nowhere in the issue, and poor editing to save space like just deleting the ends of sentence because they don't fit on the page. So, standard games journalism fare.)

I'll re-check it to where they got their info. But it seems to me how they'd signify those takedown spots.

NKD
7th Sep 2010, 04:42
Because a big, fat tooltip'll pop up on-screen saying "YOU CAN BREAK THIS WALL." Well, more or less:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/stephen_macquarie/Random/Scan-100901-0001.jpg

That's so disingenuous it's comical.

"In control" of what? In control of whacking someone on the buttocks with a baton and them falling over in the exact same manner as every other enemy in the entire frakking game? I'll gladly trade that "control" for something that actually looks good and delivers variety.

phlebas
7th Sep 2010, 06:15
@NKD

DX1 takedown mechanism was actually decent enough (though not quite ground breaking or anything) for a game released in 2000.

KSingh77
7th Sep 2010, 06:48
It's better to be in control then watch a fricking five minute movie about taking down a person.

pringlepower
7th Sep 2010, 06:56
It's better to be in control then watch a fricking five minute movie about taking down a person.

Well since exaggeration is what's up, it's better to watch a short movie than click 50 000 000 000 000 times while doing the same animation whacking a terrorist 500 000 000 000 000 times in the back. While he shoots you.

IH-Denton
7th Sep 2010, 08:42
It's pre alpha version of the game, same one that was presented on E3. They don't show us the latest version. Or you really DO THINK that they changed only one takedown and added one crash during nearly three months they had from E3? :D
they have been polishing half-yearly-demo for all this time, I see... :D
Still waiting for official actual video gameplay content in HiRes and not the "official camrip" of pre-alpha

Dr_Bob
7th Sep 2010, 09:29
Because a big, fat tooltip'll pop up on-screen saying "YOU CAN BREAK THIS WALL." Well, more or less:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v466/stephen_macquarie/Random/Scan-100901-0001.jpg

I didn't see a tool-tip or a control prompt.

In fact, I didn't see any HUD element at all - something I quite liked.


Well since exaggeration is what's up, it's better to watch a short movie than click 50 000 000 000 000 times while doing the same animation whacking a terrorist 500 000 000 000 000 times in the back. While he shoots you.

I concur.

MrFoxter
7th Sep 2010, 10:37
I support the idea of minimal HUD. I liked it in Dead Space.

Actually, tool-tips can be quite useful in the beginning, to know what options you have and what key to press, but I'd like an option to turn them off (it is common feature in modern games).


Well since exaggeration is what's up, it's better to watch a short movie than click 50 000 000 000 000 times while doing the same animation whacking a terrorist 500 000 000 000 000 times in the back. While he shoots you.

Good point.

Mindmute
7th Sep 2010, 10:53
I didn't see a tool-tip or a control prompt.

In fact, I didn't see any HUD element at all - something I quite liked.


That's because the HUD was off in those demonstrations, we don't know anything about it now, for all we know there could be a control prompt...


Well since exaggeration is what's up, it's better to watch a short movie than click 50 000 000 000 000 times while doing the same animation whacking a terrorist 500 000 000 000 000 times in the back. While he shoots you.


Not a good point honestly, saying the animations in DX were bad and repetitive doesn't justify the need for a freaking movie. They could've simply made better and diverse animations and kept control in the hands of the player rather than introduce yet another cinematic that plays the game for you!

xsamitt
7th Sep 2010, 12:00
That's because the HUD was off in those demonstrations, we don't know anything about it now, for all we know there could be a control prompt...




Not a good point honestly, saying the animations in DX were bad and repetitive doesn't justify the need for a freaking movie. They could've simply made better and diverse animations and kept control in the hands of the player rather than introduce yet another cinematic that plays the game for you!


Good Point....As I too would rather play the game than watch it.One is called gaming the other movies,and that's for a reason folks.

SageSavage
7th Sep 2010, 12:16
Thanks for the uploads, Dr Bob! IMO, the demonstration at PAX was more interesting then the one we knew from the leaked E3-footage and way more promising again then the last gameplay-trailer.

WildcatPhoenix
7th Sep 2010, 13:28
Not a good point honestly, saying the animations in DX were bad and repetitive doesn't justify the need for a freaking movie. They could've simply made better and diverse animations and kept control in the hands of the player rather than introduce yet another cinematic that plays the game for you!

No kidding. Even Modern Warfare has multiple animations for a melee attack (do we really need more than 3-4?). My problem with the original Deus Ex's melee system was not the weapons, but rather the character animations. DX's NPCs all fell to the ground in the same wooden, rigor mortis fashion, regardless of whether you stabbed them with a knife, beat them down with a baton, or put two rounds of buckshot into their back. Not exactly convincing. :hmm:

As long as DXHR gave the enemies multiple death/collapse animations, I would be satisfied. Much prefer this to watching a 5-10 second cutscene of Adam doing his l33tness.

Brockxz
7th Sep 2010, 14:53
That's so disingenuous it's comical.

"In control" of what? In control of whacking someone on the buttocks with a baton and them falling over in the exact same manner as every other enemy in the entire frakking game? I'll gladly trade that "control" for something that actually looks good and delivers variety.

You forget that nowadays ability to apply physics would not make every character to fall down in exact same manner. And do yoo think enemies will fall every time differently when you will make the same takedown on them. I don't think so. i bet every takedown involves some kind of script that tells enemy must fall down in that way after getting stab in the back because you are watching Jensen performing takedown not doing it.

KSingh77
7th Sep 2010, 16:17
Well since exaggeration is what's up, it's better to watch a short movie than click 50 000 000 000 000 times while doing the same animation whacking a terrorist 500 000 000 000 000 times in the back. While he shoots you.

Oooo Someone is feeling lazy.

5000 times?Where did you get that?

Oh I get it you suck at stealth,I see I see.

lithos
7th Sep 2010, 16:35
Well since exaggeration is what's up, it's better to watch a short movie than click 50 000 000 000 000 times while doing the same animation whacking a terrorist 500 000 000 000 000 times in the back. While he shoots you.

Yeah, I say even five clicks is too many! Screw gaming, let's just get some DVDs!

KSingh77
7th Sep 2010, 16:53
Yeah!

Lets pop in a Xenosaga game and watched a half n hour cutscene before the gameplay.

Pretentious Old Man.
7th Sep 2010, 17:55
Actually, why are we even clicking at all? Surely the industry has grown up beyond the spreadsheet-producer, also known as the PC, for playing games?

pringlepower
7th Sep 2010, 22:51
Actually, why are we even clicking at all? Surely the industry has grown up beyond the spreadsheet-producer, also known as the PC, for playing games?

Oh there's always Starcraft.

Fluffis
7th Sep 2010, 22:55
Actually, why are we even clicking at all? Surely the industry has grown up beyond the spreadsheet-producer, also known as the PC, for playing games?

The industry has grown up (almost) that much once in 1983 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvk8E9RwT5g). Then it started devolving into "interactivity" and "gaming experience".

RandomJunkie
7th Sep 2010, 23:16
Prettty sure regardless of how they handle the "takedowns", DXHR gameplay will be far better than in the original game. I'm not sure why are we arguing about such details.

I'm more worried about the story and the lack of RPG elements. I can accept the later, this will probably be like Mass Effect 2, action/adventure game with a few character optimizations choices (mostly biomods). But what about the story ? That's my only real concern. That's what will make or break the game, because I don't see how they could fail on the other aspects of the game. They are basically using Mass Effect/Gear of War type of gameplay, which will probably work well. The visuals look great. There will be multi paths to complete each objective. It is Deus Ex.



And don't complain to me about health regeneration. I once survived a mission in Deus Ex because I had 4 packs of soya on me.

jtr7
8th Sep 2010, 00:25
I'm not sure why are we arguing about such details.

Well, that's the big problem right there: Not reading the detailed arguments will definitely leave you confused and perpetuating ignorance, as opposed to being informed and knowledgeably disagreeing, and even, perhaps, changing mindsets.

Jerion
8th Sep 2010, 00:28
I've stopped reading the detailed arguments here because in the last two years I've read all there is to read. ;)



Not a good point honestly, sying the animations in DX were bad and repetitive doesn't justify the need for a freaking movie. They could've simply made better and diverse animations and kept control in the hands of the player rather than introduce yet another cinematic that plays the game for you!

That's absurd. A movie is it?

RandomJunkie
8th Sep 2010, 00:49
Well, that's the big problem right there: Not reading the detailed arguments will definitely leave you confused and perpetuating ignorance, as opposed to being informed and knowledgeably disagreeing, and even, perhaps, changing mindsets.

Ooooooh sorry ! I was not aware that we brought Deus Ex analysis to Ivy League level.

Or maybe we shouldn't make such large conclusions on 10 minutes of pre alpha gameplay footage. Maybe.

Fluffis
8th Sep 2010, 01:19
There's a lot of "These go to eleven" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UpToEleven) here lately.

jtr7
8th Sep 2010, 06:36
People love to pick on things.

People also love to pick on people picking on things.

Ilves
8th Sep 2010, 06:42
This (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/first-personmarketer/8081-Trolls-Haters-and-Flame-War-Generals-Thank-You) is so relevant.

jtr7
8th Sep 2010, 06:54
Ooooooh sorry ! I was not aware that we brought Deus Ex analysis to Ivy League level.

Or maybe we shouldn't make such large conclusions on 10 minutes of pre alpha gameplay footage. Maybe.

I don't know what your comment has to do with mine. I pointed out that ignorance of what people are saying when they are saying it right on your screen is not their problem. You claimed ignorance when it's all right there for you, in niggling detail.

hem dazon 90
8th Sep 2010, 07:49
This (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/first-personmarketer/8081-Trolls-Haters-and-Flame-War-Generals-Thank-You) is so relevant.

I really don't get people who hate trolls.

jtr7
8th Sep 2010, 07:56
O rly?

hem dazon 90
8th Sep 2010, 08:25
O rly?

http://www.doorsofnight.com/IMOBlog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/o_rly-ya-rly.jpg


And Trolls are probably the most moralistic people on the internets.

beastrn
8th Sep 2010, 09:27
Press X to incapacitate
Hold X to kill

Of course that prompt will be there every single time. How else will the league of morons remember what to press?

Mindmute
8th Sep 2010, 10:22
That's absurd. A movie is it?

Albeit a tiny one, yes, it is a movie in the sense that you sit and watch rather than do.

Are you really nitpicking about the choice of words rather than address the content of the post itself? :hmm:

lithos
8th Sep 2010, 12:07
"Hey, we're gonna play some football at lunch. Want in?"

"Yeah, absolutely!"

"Great. Ok, this is Steve, he'll be your partner for the game."

"Wait. Partner? For football?"

"Yeah. He's a professional. He'll be following you around, and handling the ball every time it comes near you."

"Why the hell can't I touch the ball?"

"Because you'll probably screw it up and ruin the game."

"Then what am I supposed to do?"

"Oh, you'll just be running around the field like an idiot."

Fluffis
8th Sep 2010, 15:26
You own the Internet, Lithos. :lol:

luminar
8th Sep 2010, 16:35
"Hey, we're gonna play some football at lunch. Want in?"

"Yeah, absolutely!"

"Great. Ok, this is Steve, he'll be your partner for the game."

"Wait. Partner? For football?"

"Yeah. He's a professional. He'll be following you around, and handling the ball every time it comes near you."

"Why the hell can't I touch the ball?"

"Because you'll probably screw it up and ruin the game."

"Then what am I supposed to do?"

"Oh, you'll just be running around the field like an idiot."

Is this like a metaphor or something? Lol!

RandomJunkie
8th Sep 2010, 16:42
I don't know what your comment has to do with mine. I pointed out that ignorance of what people are saying when they are saying it right on your screen is not their problem. You claimed ignorance when it's all right there for you, in niggling detail.

All I'm saying is that this is overreaction.

lithos
8th Sep 2010, 16:47
Is this like a metaphor or something? Lol!

Well, more a simile.

Put it this way: if the people who think the non-interactive takedown animations are a good thing had the Tiger Woods licence, they would make a game where you play his caddy.

luminar
8th Sep 2010, 17:07
Well, more a simile.

Put it this way: if the people who think the non-interactive takedown animations are a good thing had the Tiger Woods licence, they would make a game where you play his caddy.

No no, I understood. I was feinging ignorance for comedic affect.

lithos
8th Sep 2010, 17:36
No no, I understood. I was feinging ignorance for comedic affect.

I know. I was just sticking something I should've said originally in there.

Xenoc
8th Sep 2010, 18:13
Nice, but extremely dark so can barely see anything.

simulacra
8th Sep 2010, 20:30
I like the video overall, but one thing I don't understand is why character design is so shallow in a way, for instance, the Tower Security guy at Tong's office, why is he wearing some sort of combat armor when he's out to town? It's the same thing as Krusty the Clown always wearing his clown costume, in Simpsons it's funny, in a game like DXHR where they want to convey some sort of real world simile, it's stupid.

Why won't developers let us recognize characters by what they look like and not what they're wearing?

Shralla
8th Sep 2010, 21:11
Uh... Maybe he just got off duty? Maybe he's taking a break from patrol to give Tong ****. Maybe he's fixing to head out and shoot some dudes after. There are any number of reasons he might be wearing it at the time.

KSingh77
8th Sep 2010, 21:22
Lets hope he doesn't go walking through a crowd with those pointy fins on his chest.

lithos
9th Sep 2010, 04:34
This (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/first-personmarketer/8081-Trolls-Haters-and-Flame-War-Generals-Thank-You) is so relevant.

That whole article's got its head up its arse (well, it *was* written by a marketeer.)

The whole premise is "Any one who doesn't swallow your spiel whole is a troll. And probably molests puppies."

Corpus
9th Sep 2010, 13:08
Just got my comp back from repair. Combat music was so faint but still awesome. Love the fact you can totally avoid the box bot fight.

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 13:15
Just got my comp back from repair. Combat music was so faint but still awesome. Love the fact you can totally avoid the box bot fight.

Ditto. As someone who plays stealth and maxes out speech/charisma first in games where it's available, I like when this happens.

Daedalus Ciarán
9th Sep 2010, 13:27
Ditto. As someone who plays stealth and maxes out speech/charisma first in games where it's available, I like when this happens.

Shame about the bosses though. You'll have a hard time with them if you don't upgrade your combat augs. I'd quite like it if DXHR had a charisma system similar to Mass Effect and you could use your maxed out debating stat to talk bad guys down and make them see the error of their ways. You know, rather than having to resort to violence the entire time.

H.D.Case
9th Sep 2010, 14:09
But I hope that the music in-game will be more prominent than in the pax gameplay. I miss the music mood boosters from DX.
I just have some questions regarding the gameplay:

-Is the issue of rocket-and-bullet-proof cardboard boxes going to be fixed or are those boxes augmented? :P
-I find it strange that after Jensen did the wall punch, no guard responded. Even though there was this guy just upstairs in the same building, as we could see in the wall-through vision mode. I mean, it DOES make a noise! is it going to be the same in the game? Please say 'no' ;)

lithos
9th Sep 2010, 14:14
-I find it strange that after Jensen did the wall punch, no guard responded. Even though there was this guy just upstairs in the same building, as we could see in the wall-through vision mode. I mean, it DOES make a noise! is it going to be the same in the game? Please say 'no' ;)

But...that would ruin the animation! And no one would do it if it had such realis- er, bad consequences! So, much like with the stealth kills in Assassins Creed, the goal is to focus on the cool visuals instead of gameplay.

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 14:18
But I hope that the music in-game will be more prominent than in the pax gameplay. I miss the music mood boosters from DX.
I just have some questions regarding the gameplay:

-Is the issue of rocket-and-bullet-proof cardboard boxes going to be fixed or are those boxes augmented? :P
-I find it strange that after Jensen did the wall punch, no guard responded. Even though there was this guy just upstairs in the same building, as we could see in the wall-through vision mode. I mean, it DOES make a noise! is it going to be the same in the game? Please say 'no' ;)

The guard in the upstairs in the same building was the dude with an arrow in his head. I'm kinda glad he stayed where he was. Would've made my job awkward. Oh, hai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mMyV2YQgAA), man with arrow in his head.

Dr_Bob
9th Sep 2010, 14:34
the guard in the upstairs in the same building was the dude with an arrow in his head. I'm kinda glad he stayed where he was. Would've made my job awkward. oh, hai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mmyv2yqgaa), man with arrow in his head.

WHY COYOTEGREY?! WHY WHY?!

a

H.D.Case
9th Sep 2010, 14:42
The guard in the upstairs in the same building was the dude with an arrow in his head. I'm kinda glad he stayed where he was. Would've made my job awkward. Oh, hai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mMyV2YQgAA), man with arrow in his head.

Oh, hai Coyotegrey, I did not know it was you. I mean, him :) So the mode detects both the living and the undead? :) I thought it was warmth based or sth. On the other hand, the guy just got shot..

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 14:47
Oh, hai Coyotegrey, I did not know it was you. I mean, him :) So the mode detects both the living and the undead? :) I thought it was warmth based or sth. On the other hand, the guy just got shot..

I don't know. But that's a good question. I'll ask around...

H.D.Case
9th Sep 2010, 15:03
I don't know. But that's a good question. I'll ask around...
Thanks :) If it is warmth-based, then I guess it is possible that we will have warmth-blocking-suit-surprise-enemies too? The hyphens save so much cyberspace :D

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 15:18
Just got my comp back from repair. Combat music was so faint but still awesome. Love the fact you can totally avoid the box bot fight.

We had the audio a bit lower than usual so Mary wouldn't have to scream into the mic. Normally I'd say "YEAH" to doing that, but five fifteen minute presentations a day gets exhausting, even for pros like Mary.

H.D.Case
9th Sep 2010, 15:29
We had the audio a bit lower than usual so Mary wouldn't have to scream into the mic. Normally I'd say "YEAH" to doing that, but five fifteen minute presentations a day gets exhausting, even for pros like Mary.

The presentation was very nice, no worries :) I think we are all just curious how the music works in the game.
About the music-in the club they play some sort of ambient. That's a good choice, it has a futuristic feel, for sure. But when I think about clubs in a cyberpunk world, I imagine something like that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoMuVq1Ynnc
Any chances for another, dense atmosphere scum club? (a typical cyberpunk, I mean) :P I know, you have to listen to requests like that all the time, but I am just hoping ;) And using the time, before you release a more prominent gameplay and a wave of new question asking people flood the forum. :)

Corpus
9th Sep 2010, 15:44
We had the audio a bit lower than usual so Mary wouldn't have to scream into the mic. Normally I'd say "YEAH" to doing that, but five fifteen minute presentations a day gets exhausting, even for pros like Mary.

Yeah thats fair. Mary talked at all the right times unlike other presentations where they just jammer on while important conversations are going on. I would certainly like some info on the soundtrack, its coming off as being an award winner so far. I'm not expecting something as huge as the Prey soundtrack but I'm betting there will be plenty of songs given the amount of scenarios you can get into.

Has anyone seen that gameplay walkthrough with the Halo sound guys? They talk about the music and sounds yet all you hear is them talking crap. Not hating on halo just think that was a poor way to go about things even though the team is quite laid back.

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 15:50
Yeah thats fair. Mary talked at all the right times unlike other presentations where they just jammer on while important conversations are going on. I would certainly like some info on the soundtrack, its coming off as being an award winner so far. I'm not expecting something as huge as the Prey soundtrack but I'm betting there will be plenty of songs given the amount of scenarios you can get into.

Has anyone seen that gameplay walkthrough with the Halo sound guys? They talk about the music and sounds yet all you hear is them talking crap. Not hating on halo just think that was a poor way to go about things even though the team is quite laid back.

Got a link for that?

Corpus
9th Sep 2010, 16:03
Got a link for that?

Its on Xbox live :( I'll scout youtube for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICQhLl7P6BU
Sound is better on here partially but still their commentary isn't needed. Like how they admit they recycled some stuff :/
Theres an even better preview here, no commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzTBj1G96dg

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 16:11
Its on Xbox live :( I'll scout youtube for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICQhLl7P6BU
Sound is better on here partially but still their commentary isn't needed. Like how they admit they recycled some stuff :/
Theres an even better preview here, no commentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzTBj1G96dg

Ahhh! Spoilers! Abort! Abort! Bookmarked.

My bad. I didn't think it was going to show so much. Whew. Crisis averted.

I'm desperately trying to stay on blackout until my Legendary edition arrives.

Corpus
9th Sep 2010, 16:18
Ahhh! Spoilers! Abort! Abort! Bookmarked.

My bad. I didn't think it was going to show so much. Whew. Crisis averted.

I'm desperately trying to stay on blackout until my Legendary edition arrives.

I'm buying it in the hope that it will be like the old days of Halo 2 with my friends. Forge world is gonna be brilliant, can't wait to build.

Not so bothered about the story myself, if it relates to the books that will be interesting but I don't want them doing what they did in ODST and introducing more mysteries that won't really be solved (in the games at least, cant say for books).

On-topic:
The keypad UI looks interesting, is it some kind of holographic interface? Will there be other systems that utilize this same kind of tech (besides computers)?

Artfunkel
9th Sep 2010, 16:33
Third-person conversations I can put up with, but the fades at the start and end of them are atrocious! It's a very strong "now you're doing something else in this videogame" message. I hope they're temporary cover for a technical problem or something. If not, I think I'll wait until someone mods all third person out to play...

Corpus
9th Sep 2010, 16:56
Third-person conversations I can put up with, but the fades at the start and end of them are atrocious! It's a very strong "now you're doing something else in this videogame" message. I hope they're temporary cover for a technical problem or something. If not, I think I'll wait until someone mods all third person out to play...

Yeah thats probably so you don't see a sudden snap in the animations. The animations seem like the only things that are immediately noticeable and need tweaking.

Shralla
9th Sep 2010, 17:30
There is no way that the dude up above when he punches through the wall is the same as the dude he shot with the arrow. He's in a completely different spot.

Corpus
9th Sep 2010, 17:45
There is no way that the dude up above when he punches through the wall is the same as the dude he shot with the arrow. He's in a completely different spot.

Its the same guy. They did it in the E3 presentation and they did it again here. You can see it clearly in the E3 leak. Plus you can just see the bolt stuck in the side of his head.
http://gyazo.com/f35904558d1e91e00a20194f521ba69c.png

PenguinsFriend
9th Sep 2010, 17:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LdEvgns8B4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7USABbiRAo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22XdZbIq5Mg

Basically, imagine the E3 gameplay leak except on a HUGE screen with no head in the way.

Thanks for sharing this, it looks awesome even if a little too dark :D

lithos
9th Sep 2010, 17:58
One of my biggest fears has been allayed: that chick who drops you off shuts the hell up afterwards.

No constant reminders about your objectives: "Adam, you've got to get to the Hive," "Remember, go the Hive club and ask for Tong," every ten seconds.

PenguinsFriend
9th Sep 2010, 18:03
One of my biggest fears has been allayed: that chick who drops you off shuts the hell up afterwards.

No constant reminders about your objectives: "Adam, you've got to get to the Hive," "Remember, go the Hive club and ask for Tong," every ten seconds.

lol - what was the name of the guy that used to do that in the origional? I can remember his face but not his name

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 18:13
Oh, hai Coyotegrey, I did not know it was you. I mean, him :) So the mode detects both the living and the undead? :) I thought it was warmth based or sth. On the other hand, the guy just got shot..

Here's a response straight from Jean-Francois Dugas

"This augmentation implants the human eye with a series of suspended organic-plastic lenses which, in turn, use embedded circuitry to build on the basic data-frame provided by the Eye-Know Retinal Prosthesis. By interfacing directly with the synthetic neural tissue spike that is connected to the optic nerve, it provides the implanted prosthesis with the ability to match visual silhouettes and body kinetics to micro-thermograph and t-wave lens modules, thus providing a limited degree of “x-ray vision” through walls and light cover."

PenguinsFriend
9th Sep 2010, 18:22
Here's a response straight from Jean-Francois Dugas

"This augmentation implants the human eye with a series of suspended organic-plastic lenses which, in turn, use embedded circuitry to build on the basic data-frame provided by the Eye-Know Retinal Prosthesis. By interfacing directly with the synthetic neural tissue spike that is connected to the optic nerve, it provides the implanted prosthesis with the ability to match visual silhouettes and body kinetics to micro-thermograph and t-wave lens modules, thus providing a limited degree of “x-ray vision” through walls and light cover."

LMAO! This has got to be the best answer of all time! :lmao:

lithos
9th Sep 2010, 18:37
Holy crap, for someone who worked at Ubisoft that's a pretty coherent answer.

Pinky_Powers
9th Sep 2010, 18:46
He's got plastic in his eyes? That's not very environmentally conscious. :hmm:

Corpus
9th Sep 2010, 19:07
Here's a response straight from Jean-Francois Dugas

"This augmentation implants the human eye with a series of suspended organic-plastic lenses which, in turn, use embedded circuitry to build on the basic data-frame provided by the Eye-Know Retinal Prosthesis. By interfacing directly with the synthetic neural tissue spike that is connected to the optic nerve, it provides the implanted prosthesis with the ability to match visual silhouettes and body kinetics to micro-thermograph and t-wave lens modules, thus providing a limited degree of “x-ray vision” through walls and light cover."

Huzzah for descriptions. Can't wait to read them all.
Interesting thought, will you be able to get information on enemy augs and bosses like in the first game? I'd certainly like to attack Barret's weak point.

WildcatPhoenix
9th Sep 2010, 19:10
Here's a response straight from Jean-Francois Dugas

"This augmentation implants the human eye with a series of suspended organic-plastic lenses which, in turn, use embedded circuitry to build on the basic data-frame provided by the Eye-Know Retinal Prosthesis. By interfacing directly with the synthetic neural tissue spike that is connected to the optic nerve, it provides the implanted prosthesis with the ability to match visual silhouettes and body kinetics to micro-thermograph and t-wave lens modules, thus providing a limited degree of “x-ray vision” through walls and light cover."

Okay now this is encouraging. I loved the descriptions of the weapons, augs, items, etc in the original game, mainly because the developers knew their science (or at least, knew how to fake it convincingly enough).

I don't ask for DXHR to present me with a three hour doctoral thesis on the neurophysiological complications of nano/biomechanical augmentation, but the fact that Dugas' answer didn't consist of "he's got this really cool computer system installed in his brain that gives him the ability to see through walls!!!" is a pretty positive sign.

Plausible science? In DXHR? Consider me intrigued...

Dr_Bob
9th Sep 2010, 20:25
Huzzah for descriptions. Can't wait to read them all.
Interesting thought, will you be able to get information on enemy augs and bosses like in the first game? I'd certainly like to attack Barret's weak point.

For massive damage.

H.D.Case
9th Sep 2010, 21:46
Here's a response straight from Jean-Francois Dugas

"This augmentation implants the human eye with a series of suspended organic-plastic lenses which, in turn, use embedded circuitry to build on the basic data-frame provided by the Eye-Know Retinal Prosthesis. By interfacing directly with the synthetic neural tissue spike that is connected to the optic nerve, it provides the implanted prosthesis with the ability to match visual silhouettes and body kinetics to micro-thermograph and t-wave lens modules, thus providing a limited degree of “x-ray vision” through walls and light cover."

I did not see that coming, heh, send my thanks to mr Dugas! It is pretty interesting, especially that it was written somewhere here that the augmentations were consulted with specialists. So it seems that Adam's eyes were either heavily damaged or insidiously altered! If both his lenses and retina were replaced (or maybe retinas were only modified? If they were replaced - wow.), then it is that basically he has completely new eyes. And, I suspect, any EMP attack may pretty much blind him. And disable his arms ofc. I would be angry if I were him too.
I wonder about the t-wave lense modules - so it is some sort of long-range EKG-like thing? If so, then we are going to be able to tell if the target is alert or completely oblivious to any danger, right? :p If not, then the activation of the vision should react to changes in target heart's t-waves only, so only if the target's heart rhythm changes. Then, why did we see the dead guy on the walkthrough as clearly as the living one? I assume the vision should be worse as only warmth (dropping warmth in addition) would be detected at that point. Again, pretty interesting thing. I would love to hear more about other augmentation too. Kudos for that! :)

A small note - the main antagonist's augmentation is even worse than Adam's - imagine his gun-hand gets damaged/jams - it makes him a disabled and completely useless soldier. Not even able to use toilet paper :lol: And what about ammo storing? That must be heavy!


About the plastic use, in response to some forum user - in Gibson's prose almost everything is plastic. And he defined cyberpunk. I think this is the feeling people would get in the 80s - that the future belong to plastic. Now we know that not necessarily, we prefer metal, apparently.

jtr7
10th Sep 2010, 00:45
If the backstory we never hear is solid and intricate, it will provide depth and gameworld logic, even if it's only superficially or subconsciously sensed, making for a powerful experience. This stuff is great for fanfiction and forum discussion and think-tank whimsy, and gives the fan-community some real substance to mull over. Thanks. More please, and don't hold too much back.

The Monochrome Man
10th Sep 2010, 01:48
I wonder about the t-wave lense modules - so it is some sort of long-range EKG-like thing?

Nonononono. A T-ray is a high frequency light ray (typically 300 gigahertz to 3 terahertz), well outside the normal visible spectrum. They're similar to microwaves, in that they pass through pretty much anything that isn't metal or water. Of course, the human body is mostly water, so the T-rays cannot penetrate our skin. A dead body would be just as visible on a T-ray based system as a living one, as the water content is still there.

Interesting to note that you can actually see through someone's clothes using something like this, unless they're wearing a lot of metal. If you fly within the USA, for instance, you may have to go through a full body scanner at a lot of airports that work using this principle. The idea is that they can see if you're hiding anything under your clothing.

That said, the full body scanners use a different frequency range (X-rays). T-rays are supposedly safer, and a few years back they found a new of creating them that doesn't use much power. That's probably why the backstory is using T-rays as opposed to X-rays.



Regarding Barrets gun-arm - I always assumed the 'grenades' on his chest were ammo cartridges for it. They're about the right size, although it follows that he'd only be able to use the weapon in short bursts.
The animation for it bugs me a bit though - it's too over the top and the system doesn't look reliable.

TrickyVein
10th Sep 2010, 02:18
T-ray radiation is just far infa-red. Distinctions made in electromagnetic spectrum are arbitrary. If you remove a certain filter from a digital camera, you will be able to pick up this wavelength. Since most fabric-based clothing is horrible at insulating, it's possible to see through clothes - you are correct.

Corpus
10th Sep 2010, 02:19
http://gyazo.com/f809f205eb61156a0ab0a2cdde77cdc3.png

Emphasis on the bull.
Barrett representing a bigger, opposing organization than the one the british guy who talked with tong is with or just a different end of the same org?

Pinky_Powers
10th Sep 2010, 02:30
Nice catch! I had actually intended to pause and try and read the datacube, but I forgot. :(

pringlepower
10th Sep 2010, 02:31
Nonononono. A T-ray is a high frequency light ray (typically 300 gigahertz to 3 terahertz), well outside the normal visible spectrum. They're similar to microwaves, in that they pass through pretty much anything that isn't metal or water. Of course, the human body is mostly water, so the T-rays cannot penetrate our skin. A dead body would be just as visible on a T-ray based system as a living one, as the water content is still there.

Interesting to note that you can actually see through someone's clothes using something like this, unless they're wearing a lot of metal. If you fly within the USA, for instance, you may have to go through a full body scanner at a lot of airports that work using this principle. The idea is that they can see if you're hiding anything under your clothing.

That said, the full body scanners use a different frequency range (X-rays). T-rays are supposedly safer, and a few years back they found a new of creating them that doesn't use much power. That's probably why the backstory is using T-rays as opposed to X-rays.



Regarding Barrets gun-arm - I always assumed the 'grenades' on his chest were ammo cartridges for it. They're about the right size, although it follows that he'd only be able to use the weapon in short bursts.
The animation for it bugs me a bit though - it's too over the top and the system doesn't look reliable.

So what you're saying is the eye aug allows us to see people through walls.. and refreshments?

Corpus
10th Sep 2010, 02:35
Nice catch! I had actually intended to pause and try and read the datacube, but I forgot. :(

Yeah I was going through the vids again and it really caught my eye. Been playing Mass Effect 1 through 2 again so reading everything is a must for me now ;)

Pinky_Powers
10th Sep 2010, 02:42
...and refreshments?

Now that is helpful! :eek:


Yeah I was going through the vids again and it really caught my eye. Been playing Mass Effect 1 through 2 again so reading everything is a must for me now ;)

I just ended a four or five hour session of ME2 myself. The Overlord DLC was most excellent!

progressor
10th Sep 2010, 05:51
Hi guys! Long time, no see.

First, I caught something that nobody else did. I've watched the leaked videos back in the day, and in comparison there is at least one significant difference -- the magical sideways twirl that Adam used to get from cover to cover was replaced by a very cool-looking spinning dive. HOORAY!

Second. A plus and a minus. They brought out the writer; this is great and unprecedented, I thought, let's hear something interesting. Alas, nothing writer-y came out of her mouth. She had an opportunity to say something philosophical about how great the benefits are of augmentations and how much greater are the costs. Something about the dystopian future, about the how augs are letting the gap between the rich and the poor grow in some very freakish and currently unfathomable ways. Time was limited, but three intelligent sentences out of Mary's mouth would have gone a long way.

Third, as I guy who was a bit strict in my demands for realism in DE:HR terminology (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=887406), the response below makes me very, very happy. Eye-Know! T-waves! How great is this? More importantly, it looks like there might actually be a game bible by now (i.e. a comprehensive game design document). This is good.


Here's a response straight from Jean-Francois Dugas

"This augmentation implants the human eye with a series of suspended organic-plastic lenses which, in turn, use embedded circuitry to build on the basic data-frame provided by the Eye-Know Retinal Prosthesis. By interfacing directly with the synthetic neural tissue spike that is connected to the optic nerve, it provides the implanted prosthesis with the ability to match visual silhouettes and body kinetics to micro-thermograph and t-wave lens modules, thus providing a limited degree of “x-ray vision” through walls and light cover."

MrFoxter
10th Sep 2010, 16:50
Here's a response straight from Jean-Francois Dugas

"This augmentation implants the human eye with a series of suspended organic-plastic lenses which, in turn, use embedded circuitry to build on the basic data-frame provided by the Eye-Know Retinal Prosthesis. By interfacing directly with the synthetic neural tissue spike that is connected to the optic nerve, it provides the implanted prosthesis with the ability to match visual silhouettes and body kinetics to micro-thermograph and t-wave lens modules, thus providing a limited degree of “x-ray vision” through walls and light cover."

Just reminded me good old notes from Sam Carter! :)

<UNATCO OPS FILE NOTE SC111-BLUE>
Coating the primary valve system of a flamethrower or plasma gun in synovial lubricant and then over-pressuring the delivery system will also result in an increase in range. Little trick I learned during field testing. -- Sam Carter
<END NOTE>

rokstrombo
11th Sep 2010, 06:23
First, I caught something that nobody else did. I've watched the leaked videos back in the day, and in comparison there is at least one significant difference -- the magical sideways twirl that Adam used to get from cover to cover was replaced by a very cool-looking spinning dive. HOORAY!

I don't think there is any difference in Adam's spinning. I'm pretty sure the demo shown at PAX was the same demo shown at E3 in June. There appears to be at least two animations for moving between cover. The magical twirl seems to occur when the two position are parallel and perfectly aligned. The rolling dive seems to occur when the two positions are not parallel or not perfectly aligned. There is at least one other variable, and I'm not sure if it is related to distance or if it is related to the type of weapon equipped.


Third, as I guy who was a bit strict in my demands for realism in DE:HR terminology (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=887406), the response below makes me very, very happy. Eye-Know! T-waves! How great is this? More importantly, it looks like there might actually be a game bible by now (i.e. a comprehensive game design document). This is good.

I don't know about realism, hehehe. I expect to be impressed by the use of jargon however! This is science-fiction, remember!

Senka
11th Sep 2010, 08:39
* Having an ability to turn of that third person junk (I've nothing against third person - it's not better or worse than first, it's just what EM's doing with it,) will eliminate about 60% of my gripes with the game as it stands. If it means giving up some of the "cinematic" augs, then, woohoo! Bonus! Third-person ladder climbing shat me even back in the good ol' days of Project IGI.

* I hope the cover system isn't automatic - ie, get close enough to a piece of cover, and, THUNK! Jensen magically sticks to to it with no input from the player whatsoever. I hope there's a way to ignore it completely.

* I hope the controls are expanded for PC. We've got a hundred keys to choose from, why not let us use 'em. None of that context-sensitive, tap-or-hold crap.

These last points really reflect how I feel, good summary. Hopefully these can be achieved one way or another.

Ninjerk
12th Sep 2010, 08:57
It didn't look too futuristic for two decades from now, considering what aeronautical engineering can do nowadays already.

Don't forget that while Jock's chopper looked normal, in order to traverse those distances in that timeframe, it had to be supersonic. That's as odd as adding a chopper like the one seen on DX:HR as far as I'm concerned.

It makes sense to me if I forget I played DX. Why, however-many years in the future DX is set from DX:HR, is the RIDICULOUSLY WELL-FUNDED SHADOW GOVERNMENT using what aesthetically appears to be inferior technology? I think that brings us back to the "re-imagining Deus Ex" argument OR the idea that this is before the world started tearing apart at the seams. I *think* I can stomach the re-imagining argument. I'll have to see how it plays out.


I like the video overall, but one thing I don't understand is why character design is so shallow in a way, for instance, the Tower Security guy at Tong's office, why is he wearing some sort of combat armor when he's out to town? It's the same thing as Krusty the Clown always wearing his clown costume, in Simpsons it's funny, in a game like DXHR where they want to convey some sort of real world simile, it's stupid.

Why won't developers let us recognize characters by what they look like and not what they're wearing?

Forgive me if I'm ignorant of the particulars of the TS faction, but that guy is walking into a Triad nightclub to chew out a crime figure of some degree of power.

Ilves
12th Sep 2010, 11:00
Another play-through from PAX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Natn_1fhavI). Here you can actually make out the action. :p

Edit: Again there's variations in camera angles during takedowns. And on a personal note, being a gamer that prefers the pacifist route whenever available, the brawly aggressiveness of the non lethal takedowns - to me - kind of nullifies their whole point. Adam appears to be a very angry person by default. ;p


They brought out the writer; this is great and unprecedented, I thought, let's hear something interesting. Alas, nothing writer-y came out of her mouth. She had an opportunity to say something philosophical about how great the benefits are of augmentations and how much greater are the costs. Something about the dystopian future, about the how augs are letting the gap between the rich and the poor grow in some very freakish and currently unfathomable ways. Time was limited, but three intelligent sentences out of Mary's mouth would have gone a long way.


I totally second this sentiment. She was very engaging, but yeah, I was hoping for a more 'authorial' angle on Human Revolution.

Esnuk
12th Sep 2010, 12:24
play-throuh from PAX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Natn_1fhavI).

I want the T-Shirt DeMarle is wearing.

IOOI
12th Sep 2010, 12:40
I was hoping for a more 'authorial' angle on Human Revolution.

Expect nothing but 'Square' angles from now on. ;p



OMG I made a pun!

lithos
12th Sep 2010, 13:43
We should consider ourselves extremely lucky that HR isn't filled with irritating catgirls and other scary Japanese detritus.

Argent
12th Sep 2010, 14:13
So what you're saying is the eye aug allows us to see people through walls.. and refreshments?

I have to say, this got a pretty awesome laugh out of me.

sonicsidewinder
12th Sep 2010, 14:20
Another play-through from PAX (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Natn_1fhavI).

Good quality man. Alas the quality makes all the faults more visible. The cover system is just far too twitchy. That part at the beggining by the compound gate? That's gotta be smoothed out.
I dont like in general the way Adam seems to stick to cover ALWAYS from a perpendicular angle either. Something aint right about it. Detachment.

Ilves
12th Sep 2010, 14:36
^
Ignoring the fact that I still don't like TPV as a design choice, I could finally make out some nice detail in Adam's animations, for instance during reloads (he seems genuinely occupied), and the way he glances backward before sticking to cover. Little, pointless observations, I know, but I it suggest dedication on EM's part, and granted, details like that actually back up the claim that TPV adds to the experience. Transitions were still jerky, though.

Corpus
12th Sep 2010, 15:08
Damn, just noticed the versalife sign.
So far the major players seem to be:
Versalife
Triad
Sarif
Belltower(could be MJ12 or a group like versalife controlled by them)
Barrett's faction. No idea who he is with, could be Belltower though that note in the bathroom never connected him to them.

Would it be worth an analysis thread?

Pretentious Old Man.
12th Sep 2010, 15:08
Good thing about that video: It's clear that Adam can crouch in first person. If you look, the points where he is are fairly obvious. That's great.

Bad thing about the video: All the ***** oohing and ahing at the third person wai kewl akshun sequences in third person. Seriously, I can still feel the hate welling up now.

Kvltism
12th Sep 2010, 15:19
Good thing about that video: It's clear that Adam can crouch in first person. If you look, the points where he is are fairly obvious. That's great.

Now the game just needs lean keys, and I'm good to go.

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 16:53
Adam appears to be a very angry person by default. ;p

You do know you cannot drop people by simply making a funny face? You have to hurt them if you do it with your hands. Anger has nothing to do with it.

I'd like to point out, however, that those fists of fury takedowns tend to happen when Adam meets an enemy face on. When Kyle snuck up behind the guy on the roof, he used a choke-hold.

Ilves
12th Sep 2010, 17:48
Oh, anger helps. :D

Brawly really was the keyword in my post. I expected the non lethal approach to be cleaner and more efficient than, well, fists of fury. Oh well!

I still want to hear more about this contextual stuff. You may be right about angle of attack having an influence on how the takedown is performed.

Anasumtj
12th Sep 2010, 18:16
What's with the big emphasis on these takedowns being contextual. I mean, just what the hell is that supposed to mean to me?

Call it contextual, non-scripted, or whatever. You're still strolling up to an enemy, hitting a button, and watching the game do everything for you with canned animation sequences and camera positioning. It doesn't matter what you call it because the end result still ******* blows.

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 18:44
What's with the big emphasis on these takedowns being contextual. I mean, just what the hell is that supposed to mean to me?

It actually means a great deal to you, the player, whether you know it or not. The fact that it's non-scripted means that its completely up to you how you deal with your enemies.

Example for dealing with security guard sitting at computer:
1. Use lethal takedown.
2. Use nonlethal takedown.
3. Sneak into room and shoot guard in head.
4. Plant mine by door, make noise to draw him out... BOOM!
5. Throw grenade into room.
6. Draw guard out, then sneak in through window while he searches for you.
7. Ignore Guard and security console completely.
8. More creative ways that I can't think of right now.

This is the importance of it being contextual and non-scripted; it leaves a world of possibilities for the player to explore (not just which gun am I going to use). Making a point of this in their demonstrations says "Yeah, they're takedowns, and we want to show them to you, but the freedom of play is still fully present." This is one of the great aspects of the original Deus Ex.

Ilves
12th Sep 2010, 18:56
^ What you describe now is just takedowns being one of a myriad of options.

"Contextual" in lieu of "takedown" implies context is of influence on the takedown, no? How many enemies around, how much energy you have left, how advanced your augs, whether the dude saw you coming or not, all those things factor in on which takedown is executed, and how effective it is. That's how I picture it, anyway.

I don't know, I find the whole concept confusing.

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 19:24
^... yeah, that's part of it too, maybe even the principle of its meaning. But I pulled from it an underlying truth that I find more important to more people.

Ilves
12th Sep 2010, 19:31
I dunno, the way I describe it, it feels like loss of control, primarily. :scratch: Maybe I ought to head over to the questions to EM thread...

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 19:52
I dunno, the way I describe it, it feels like loss of control, primarily. :scratch: Maybe I ought to head over to the questions to EM thread...

How is it a loss of control?

The takedowns are too long and should not be in third-person, but they are just another option in this vast catalog.

Jerion
12th Sep 2010, 19:53
Mmm. Contextually-operated takedowns...Sure, I can live with it. Doesn't really matter to me just exactly how Jensen takes down the target long as it's just as exciting and involving to get him there. Swing a baton, jab a knife, knock out a fool who gets in the way, brutally impale desk workers...eh, long as the buildup is my control and the payoff is satisfying I'm good with it.

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 19:58
Mmm. Contextually-operated takedowns...Sure, I can live with it. Doesn't really matter to me just how my Jensen takes down the target long as it's just as exciting and involving to get him there. Swing a baton, jab a knife, knock out a fool who gets in the way, brutally impale desk workers...eh, long as the buildup is my control and the payoff is satisfying I'm good with it.

Sometimes I think our minds have been synced, as though we lay our heads upon the same pillow and dream of one-another in numinous warmth.

Ilves
12th Sep 2010, 20:03
^ I want in. :3

Anyway, yes, loss of control. If -again, assuming this is going to work as I laid out in my earlier post - baton/prod style non lethal mêlée is taken out, and instead the only non lethal option I have is "press triangle for non lethal takedown", and the system determines whether Adam is gonna choke a dude, or drop a rain of fists on him, or smack him in the face, or what have you, without being able to predict which it's gonna be, then yeah, how is that not loss of control?

Mêlée. Tee-hee. I love spell check.

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 20:25
^ I want in. :3

Anyway, yes, loss of control. If -again, assuming this is going to work as I laid out in my earlier post - baton/prod style non lethal mêlée is taken out, and instead the only non lethal option I have is "press triangle for non lethal takedown", and the system determines whether Adam is gonna choke a dude, or drop a rain of fists on him, or smack him in the face, or what have you, without being able to predict which it's gonna be, then yeah, how is that not loss of control?

Mêlée. Tee-hee. I love spell check.

Because as Mr. K points out, both systems work as such: sneak up, press a button, melee, guy is down. You deemed he should be unconscious, you still had to take him by surprise. No loss of control.

The takedown "cinematic" makes this hard to accept. And the longer it is, the more troubling it is. But it still requires the player to work for it and make a decision.

pringlepower
12th Sep 2010, 20:44
Because as Mr. K points out, both systems work as such: sneak up, press a button, melee, guy is down. You deemed he should be unconscious, you still had to take him by surprise. No loss of control.

The takedown "cinematic" makes this hard to accept. And the longer it is, the more troubling it is. But it still requires the player to work for it and make a decision.

*The artist formerly known as Mr. K

Ilves
12th Sep 2010, 20:51
@ Pinky: Okay, the illusion of loss of control, I can go with that. Which is gonna weigh real heavy if there indeed is a random, or off screen factor to exactly how the takedown is going to play out.

IOOI
12th Sep 2010, 21:15
How is it a loss of control?

The takedowns are too long and should not be in third-person, but they are just another option in this vast catalog.


Because as Mr. K points out, both systems work as such: sneak up, press a button, melee, guy is down. You deemed he should be unconscious, you still had to take him by surprise. No loss of control.

The takedown "cinematic" makes this hard to accept. And the longer it is, the more troubling it is. But it still requires the player to work for it and make a decision.

But still the kind of takedown to apply should be left to players the choice. It should depend on the weapon the PC has in hand. I want to decide what takedown I want to see, I don't want to be "surprised".
It pretty much works like when you're playing a brawler or a fighting game, you should choose what combo you want to see.

See, you're loosing control.

MrFoxter
12th Sep 2010, 21:18
I totally agree with Jerion (Formerly known as Mr. K).

I understand that main problem with these takedowns is that you can't screw them up. In original, it was possible to miss. Guard then turned around and if you did not hit him again and again sufficiently, he ran away and hit an alarm button or killed you with his assault rifle instantly. Either way, I loaded. I wanted perfect playthrough and when this happened, my game was screwed up. I hope that new takedowns will at least save me a lot of frustration. For me, Deus Ex was never CS-style shooter about perfect aim, reflexes and precise control of keyboard and mouse, but rather about my wit, perception and character statistics. Yes, I can live with new takedowns too.

pringlepower
12th Sep 2010, 21:18
But still the kind of takedown to apply should be left to players the choice. It should depend on the weapon the PC has in hand. I want to decide what takedown I want to see, I don't want to be "surprised".
It pretty much works like when you're playing a brawler or a fighting game, you should choose what combo you want to see.

See, you're loosing control.

Could you really choose in Deus Ex? Having only one option -swing bat/sword/club downwards. Repeat while buttonmashing - isn't choice.

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 21:24
@ Pinky: Okay, the illusion of loss of control, I can go with that. Which is gonna weigh real heavy if there indeed is a random, or off screen factor to exactly how the takedown is going to play out.

You're right about that. Not sure how "heavy" it will actually weigh, but it will be measurable for some.

Personally, I don't think it's random, nor the factors "off-screen". I think it's contextual. For instance, if the guy is sitting. Or if he approaches him head-on. Or if there's two of them. Or if the guy is walking, or standing still. And so-on.

I would like the system to work a bit differently, to be honest. I'd like to be able to grab someone and interrogate him like Splinter Cell Chaos Theory... in addition to lethal and nonlethal takedowns. But most of all, I'd like the actions to be shorter, limited to only single takedowns, and they should be in first-person.

But I can certainly live with what they've build. At its heart the stealth takedowns function the same as they always did.

IOOI
12th Sep 2010, 21:35
I totally agree with Jerion (Formerly known as Mr. K).

I understand that main problem with these takedowns is that you can't screw them up. In original, it was possible to miss. Guard then turned around and if you did not hit him again and again sufficiently, he ran away and hit an alarm button or killed you with his assault rifle instantly. Either way, I loaded. I wanted perfect playthrough and when this happened, my game was screwed up. I hope that new takedowns will at least save me a lot of frustration. For me, Deus Ex was never CS-style shooter about perfect aim, reflexes and precise control of keyboard and mouse, but rather about my wit, perception and character statistics. Yes, I can live with new takedowns too.


Could you really choose in Deus Ex? Having only one option -swing bat/sword/club downwards. Repeat while buttonmashing - isn't choice.

You two need a lesson:

#1 - Fans consider that DX was not perfect. They never said they didn't want changes.
#2 - Changes should be made with DX design philosophy in mind and we want good changes that expand that.

I soooo dare you to read old posts, threads and Ashpolt's thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110449).

@ pringlepower

No one said DX melee combat was perfect. We been making references to Condemned and Riddick games for a while. That's how we would like to see it (melee /HTH combat and sneak attacks) implemented.

I'll give you a list of games that could have influenced DX3 design.

--------------------------------
Here's the list of games that could have influenced DX3 design and how they could've been applied:

-SWAT 4 (context sensitive commands and a graphical command interface: doors (opening/closing, lockpicking, spycamera), climbing/rappeling, firehoses (as weapon, as "rope", putting down fires) and other objects, leaning sideways and up/down (guardrails, staircases))
-Riddick (FPS melee combat, sneak attacks)
-Condemned (FPS melee combat, Detective tools)
-GRAW (FPS dive/slide (ground, on top of tables/boxes/benchs/etc))
-Deus EX (Pratically everything in DX with proper modification/correction, Picking/pushing objects/NPCs and using them for cover (transparent cover), Lean Keys)
-Crysis (FP animations)
-Mirrors Edge (FP animations, Parkour aug)
-Half-Life 2 (FP Convos (looking at specific objects/marks on the NPC/gameworld and making "optional" questions and then making the NPC react accordingly - ie: when at an office, if the PC makes to many questions about the place/objects the NPC should take note of this and warn others about this, making them plan meetings in alternative places besides their own offices, like a restaurant for instance) - not excluding TP convos)

This is my short list of things I can remember. Not everyone might agree with these.

MrFoxter
12th Sep 2010, 22:49
@IOOI I did not said that new takedowns are the best solution, I just said that in my opinion they are less frustrating than in DX1.

No offense, but if you want to give lessons, you should know one thing: You can't just make a mix of succesful games and hope that together it will be better game. This is not the way of progress, this is recycling. Deus Ex was game of new ideas, so why now stick to what had been already done instead of doing it new way? The game should be instantly recognisable.

"Hey, is this Riddick - or wait, is it GRAW? Or SWAT?"

Yes, I'm overacting. What you said makes sense to me, there are many good ideas, but please try to think about what I said at least a little bit and try to catch my point.

BTW I was reading Ashpolt's thread from the beginning.

Pinky_Powers
12th Sep 2010, 23:09
Deus Ex was game of new ideas,

It had some new ideas for the small things, but mostly it was a collection of old ideas. A mix of genres; action, stealth and RPG.

IOOI
12th Sep 2010, 23:28
@IOOI I did not said that new takedowns are the best solution, I just said that in my opinion they are less frustrating than in DX1.

..for you. To me it just doesn't fit.




No offense, but if you want to give lessons, you should know one thing: You can't just make a mix of succesful games and hope that together it will be better game. This is not the way of progress, this is recycling. Deus Ex was game of new ideas, so why now stick to what had been already done instead of doing it new way? The game should be instantly recognisable.


Non taken. But I thought there were designers that could figure out the best way to implement some of the stuff if they looked back to what DX was trying to achieve and build on top of that. And right now DX3 just seems to be a refresh of games released in the last 4 years covered with frost sugar.


"Hey, is this Riddick - or wait, is it GRAW? Or SWAT?"

Hey it's... it's Mass Effect, Splinter Cell or MGS4 or... or R6V. None of them related to DX1 in design.



It had some new ideas for the small things, but mostly it was a collection of old ideas. A mix of genres; action, stealth and RPG.

You got point.

I still say there's a difference in Design (DX vs HR) that I don't like.

MrFoxter
12th Sep 2010, 23:48
I thought there were designers that could figure out the best way to implement some of the stuff if they looked back to what DX was trying to achieve and build on top of that.
I agree with that. I just don't like the implement-this-from-this-game-and-that-from-another-game way of thinking about it. But that's just my opinion.

FrankCSIS
13th Sep 2010, 02:17
I just hope we don't get what I saw in some screenshot, some "press a for non-lethal, press b for lethal takedown" appear on screen as we get close to a target. Luckily this was not seen in any of the footages, and I'm hoping the screen was a montage to anger some people.

Pinky_Powers
13th Sep 2010, 03:04
I just hope we don't get what I saw in some screenshot, some "press a for non-lethal, press b for lethal takedown" appear on screen as we get close to a target. Luckily this was not seen in any of the footages, and I'm hoping the screen was a montage to anger some people.

I think that screenshot you're talking about was from Alpha Protocal.

IOOI
13th Sep 2010, 03:39
Ok. There's one thing I don't understand.

Why can't there be First Person "invisible body" climbing ala HL2 since there's already "invisible hand" to drag corpses and open vents and FP sneaking without Lean Keys? :hmm:

EDIT:
Why there's no FBA? I'm still trying to understand if they're really being lazy or if it could be because of:

-low-skilled animators;
-shortage of animators;
-time and budget constraints (making proper animations that work well in both TPV and FPV and then testing them);
-one of the Designers vision (in order to avoid having awkward animations in TPV or FPV, turning the game in a smooth, flowing and steady cinematic experience).

Anasumtj
13th Sep 2010, 04:43
It actually means a great deal to you, the player, whether you know it or not. The fact that it's non-scripted means that its completely up to you how you deal with your enemies.

Example for dealing with security guard sitting at computer:
1. Use lethal takedown.
2. Use nonlethal takedown.
3. Sneak into room and shoot guard in head.
4. Plant mine by door, make noise to draw him out... BOOM!
5. Throw grenade into room.
6. Draw guard out, then sneak in through window while he searches for you.
7. Ignore Guard and security console completely.
8. More creative ways that I can't think of right now.

This is the importance of it being contextual and non-scripted; it leaves a world of possibilities for the player to explore (not just which gun am I going to use). Making a point of this in their demonstrations says "Yeah, they're takedowns, and we want to show them to you, but the freedom of play is still fully present." This is one of the great aspects of the original Deus Ex.

Okay, I don't see what most of that list has to do with the takedowns being contextual. If the only thing that differentiates their takedowns from something heavily scripted is that I can make AJ play a cutscene wherever I want in the map, then I'm not really impressed with this particular bit of damage control. How is this any different (and less annoying) than AC's elongated stabbing animations.

I don't see how anybody could consider this system "at it's heart" the same as the original game's. You used melee weapons as precision items, which meant that imprecision affected the outcomes of their usage. In HR you have a binary toggle; Press X to initiate "I Win" cutscene or don't. I don't find that conducive to the kinds of interesting scenarios that should take place in a DX game, some of which should include how you handle a situation even if something throws your blow off at the last second.

Just becaused you quickloaded every time you messed up for the sake a of a perfect playthrough doesn't mean the game should be designed with that kind of guarantee.

beastrn
13th Sep 2010, 06:15
Heaauuughhh my brain.

Why are we still having to say the same bloody thing over and over about takedowns...

Pinky_Powers
13th Sep 2010, 06:17
How is this any different (and less annoying) than AC's elongated stabbing animations.

A person who can't tell the difference between a story sequence and a "stabbing animation" is someone with whom any argument is futile.

NKD
13th Sep 2010, 06:30
All I can say is that if this is the biggest thing you guys can find to gripe about. This game is going to be fantastic.

Jerion
13th Sep 2010, 14:21
Heaauuughhh my brain.

Why are we still having to say the same bloody thing over and over about takedowns...

Don't ever forget:

"My Immersion!!!" ;)

Hammich
13th Sep 2010, 15:02
All I can say is that if this is the biggest thing you guys can find to gripe about. This game is going to be fantastic.

The game will be fantastic no doubt... But if this and similar gripes could be addressed, the game could be a legend in the making.

I don't see why first person ladder climbing would be hard to implement. I don't have issues with the speed Adam climbs at in the demo though, his arms (and I THINK his legs) ARE mechanically augmented after all.