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dixieflatline
3rd Sep 2010, 17:47
Heads up on a new interview:

The Human Question ... interview w/ Stéphane D'Astous
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6114/deus_ex_the_human_question.php

a follow up to Gamasutra's earlier interview w/ Dugas in July, in case anyone missed that:
Inciting A (Human) Revolution: The Deus Ex Interview
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/5930/inciting_a_human_revolution_the_.php

The new interview doesn't give away any new info on the game, but it is nonetheless a good read. Thought I'd point it out. I'm a big fan of Gamasutra they have great articles on that site.

Pretentious Old Man.
3rd Sep 2010, 17:51
He mentioned Hitman.

He has now gone up in my estimation no-end. Shame he had to lump it in with Lara Croft, but anyone who appreciates Agent 47's brilliance can't be all bad.

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Sep 2010, 18:04
Of all the talking heads at EM, I think D'Astous is the one I can tolerate the most. I wish I could believe what he says about DXHR being "a labor of love."

Unfortunately, Eidos Montreal's words are being routinely contradicted by what we see on the screen.

luminar
3rd Sep 2010, 18:12
I should stop reading the interviews. Everytime I come hear I think "This games gonna suck!" But then I watch the trailers and cry in anticipation thinking "This is ******* awsome!"

Lady_Of_The_Vine
3rd Sep 2010, 23:33
Unfortunately, Eidos Montreal's words are being routinely contradicted by what we see on the screen.

Not sure I get what you mean about contradiction, but I actually LOVE all the screenies so far. They all remind me of DX. :cool:

Invictus Sol
4th Sep 2010, 00:04
Of all the talking heads at EM, I think D'Astous is the one I can tolerate the most. I wish I could believe what he says about DXHR being "a labor of love."

Unfortunately, Eidos Montreal's words are being routinely contradicted by what we see on the screen.

So because it doesn't fully realize all your fantasies of what a Deus Ex prequel should be, it's not possible that he loves his job and a game that he's been working on for years (presumably)? That's pretty obnoxious and arrogant.

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 12:01
So because it doesn't fully realize all your fantasies of what a Deus Ex prequel should be, it's not possible that he loves his job and a game that he's been working on for years (presumably)? That's pretty obnoxious and arrogant.

If they take the core of a game which is itself the core of a genre, and then bastardise that to varying degrees in order to meet the spurious and ephemeral "modern audience", then it is neither obnoxious or arrogant. He might very well love DX3, but I think the more relevant question is "does he love DX1, and if so, how much of its magic is he prepared to keep?"

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 12:10
^
Clearly, you've strayed away from the core of the original statement and IS's response to it.

But to reply to your statement, we already know the whole team respect the first game and have endeavoured to stay true to it's "soul".

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 12:21
^
we already know the whole team respect the first game and have endeavoured to stay true to it's "soul".

The extent to which that endeavour has been conscientious is exactly what I am debating. Some evidence suggests that they are taking it seriously, other pieces suggest they are selling out to what I like to term "the CoD crowd". Only time will tell, but I still think it's too premature to say that they've endeavoured to stay true to it's soul just quite yet, especially given current evidence.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 12:28
^
How are they selling out? Do you mean because they've made some changes?
All the information on the game and the screenies, so far released, look very close to DX (to me) so I don't think it's premature to draw this conclusion (personally).

Either way, I am still excited about DX:HR. :cool:

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 12:54
^
How are they selling out? Do you mean because they've made some changes?
All the information on the game and the screenies, so far released, look very close to DX (to me) so I don't think it's premature to draw this conclusion (personally).

Either way, I am still excited about DX:HR. :cool:

Lol, I admit that the screens look good. I'm basing my opinion more on videos and interviews, as they give a better idea of how the game plays in my opinion. The love of the dramatic, the wish for "epic setpieces", Dugas's love affair with the word "cool", the regenerating health, the third person switches of camera, the fact that the story from what we know of it has lost the semi-intellectual nature of the first to be replaced with the usual transhumanist, Matrixesque dross, the removal of skills as a separate entity and the over-use of metaphors and colour-schemes to create something more akin to blade runner (a movie I loathe, incidentally), than the actual wheelings and dealings of 2027, as well as the character of Barrett who at the moment appears to be nothing more than a tuppeny thrupenny bit southern game villain. All this coupled with a lead design team who can barely string a coherent sentence together, who have between them a resume of truly terrible games from Ubisoft, one of which (R6V) was itself a destroyer of a great franchise.

All this does not necessarily mean that the game will be bad, heck I believe it will still be very good, but it signifies to me that the analytical, respectful-of-the-player's-intelligence team lead by Warren Spector and pre-IW Harvey Smith will not be replicated here. In fact, I see nothing but a profound desire to make a sequel for the "modern age", and by that I mean the post-CoD, post-Activision, post-DLC, post-publishers and bean counters running the show, post-console dominance world. A world that the original Deus Ex was never part of.

In other words, the developers might very well see DX3 as a "labour of love", but to what extent do they see DX1 as the game of genius that it was? To what extent are they planning to preserve that? Phrases like "the core of Deus Ex was its augmentations" and "Deus Ex 1 was kinda slow" do not exactly fill one with hope.

I'm still calling premature.








(Where's Ashpolt when you need him? :))

lithos
4th Sep 2010, 13:47
He mentioned Hitman.

He has now gone up in my estimation no-end. Shame he had to lump it in with Lara Croft, but anyone who appreciates Agent 47's brilliance can't be all bad.

I'm wondering, though, how Eidos can take credit for characters thought up by IOI and Core Design.

One thing that bugs me is that every single game development article I've read in the last couple of years always has some bastard talking more about "new players" than the old ones. What the hell's the point of trying to appeal to the new players? Unless you're psychic, they're gonna be just as baffled at first playing a game designed with newbies in mind as one without.

Especially with sequels, why ignore the established customers for ones who, at the moment, probably aren't even interested?

Isn't that just a poor use of resources?

I suppose that's why we have games that have tooltips pop-up on screen all the way through ("PRESS *button* TO OPEN DOOR.") Makes it easier for the pirates, I suppose. Kills immersion, but.

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 14:42
*hideous, pretentious nonsense*

Lets just get right to the heart of the matter. You "loathe" Blade Runner? We need no further evidence that you've made some dangerous missteps in your development. You're clearly in some sort of funk vortex, where most good things sour in your beholding.

But another major issue, and one which you share with others here, is your hard-line approach to all things. In the same way that Invisible War is not a bad game in the least, but merely a failure to live up to its predecessor, Rainbow Six Vegas is a quality action game. The fact that they're not making classic Rainbow Six games anymore has nothing to do with Vegas 1 or 2. A game that's made is not responsible for another game not being made.

Every time someone on the forum spouts a thing to the effect "Oh my god! They found things in Invisible War that was good and helpful in their development! This speaks only doom for Human Revolution!" I just cringe my teeth and try and ignore them. Because I hear it so often, saying something every time I do would be like swimming upstream.

We need more maturity on these forums... especially from those who claim to be older than 25. There is greatness that can be found in Invisible War, and EM was right to research it.

I know what you mean by disappointment in the videos and interviews to some extent. But the truth is there's a whole lot more good news in the interviews than bad... by a huge margin. But again, people prefer to focus only on the bad. Even if it's only a poorly worded phase.

Most of your concerns, however, are rendered null and void by the slew off written Previews. Folk who have seen the game at length and shared their experience. You proclaim the screenshots look good to you, but the game doesn't sound very much like Deus Ex. The Police Station in particular sounds more like Deus Ex than I had ever hoped for.

I honestly have no clue what you're on about with "epic setpieces".

I would very much like to address your attack on the story though. This is as clear a sign that you long to hate the game as can be. There is almost NOTHING known about the story. It is positively small and pathetic of you to claim any great disappointment with it at this stage. Yes, trans-humanism plays a role, and it is a major political factor, but we have zero understanding of the story or the conspiracies.
Out of everything, the story holds the most promise for me. The very little I know about the plot, combined what what I've read from the lead Writer, this could be an outstanding tale. It's profoundly irritating that you would b1t*h about it based on... well, nothing really.

Metaphors are just good writing.

Colour schemes are just good art design.

The skill/augmentation system sounds incredible and even more customizable than Deus Ex.

You know what... "but it signifies to me that the analytical, respectful-of-the-player's-intelligence team lead by Warren Spector and pre-IW Harvey Smith will not be replicated here." The things you say are not remotely sensible or even true.

Human Revolution has: the subtle Deus Ex choices that have heavy and unknowable consequences. Social Combat that requires you to observe body language. A complex hacking system that actually makes sense. The same sort of Deus Ex exploration that fills in plot and characters via emails and eavesdropping and datacubes. Not to mention the little things like manually entered keycodes, weapon mods, weapon-specific ammo, multiple ammo types per-weapon, 21 augs with their own upgrade tree, and a ton of other things I can't remember.

From the information that we actually have, Human Revolution matches Deus Ex's intelligence in most areas, and tops it in a few others. Here's the ugly reality...

You hate third-person, health regen and cutscenes. From this hate you've convinced yourself that HR is a disgrace to the name Deus Ex. So long as those features are present, you and a number of other equally contorted minds on these forums will never accept this game as intelligent or respectful to the player.

Whatever. You're a fool and your opinions are wrong. http://tech-pc.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/cuss.gif

WildcatPhoenix
4th Sep 2010, 14:53
I hear a lot about how they are all such huge fans of the original game, and how they have definitely kept the "soul" of Deus Ex intact. I hear these things, but I don't see them.

Deus Ex was, or at least aspired to be, a simulation. It tried to take the next step in gaming design by creating a virtual world with freedom of choice. Yeah sure, it was hobbled by the technology available, but it was a daring first step in a new direction. Warren and co were hoping the gaming industry would follow Ion Storm's lead. It hasn't. It has regressed to the "oh look this is cool it looks just like a movie!!!" BS that appeals to the, as POM called them, CoD crowd.

You can't just say, "We've preserved the core of Deus Ex" over and over and over again to make it true. They have clearly abandoned it. Do I even need to post the list again? Cutscenes are, to me, the biggest offender, so I will just use these as an example.

We are watching the events of Deus Ex Human Revolution. All this 3rd person bull.**** stems from the same fundamental flaw in development. They want to "reward" us by letting us watch Adam do something. Stand by and watch him kick a guard in the teeth. Stand by and watch him climb a ladder. Stand by and watch him flatten up against a wall. And so on.

Not to mention stand by and watch cutscene after cutscene, in mid-mission. This is NOT immersion. It's not, no matter how much you True Believers want to say it is. This is watching a movie.

And Deus Ex was never meant to be a "cinematic experience."

Fluffis
4th Sep 2010, 15:18
I know what you mean by disappointment in the videos and interviews to some extent. But the truth is there's a whole lot more good news in the interviews than bad... by a huge margin. But again, people prefer to focus only on the bad. Even if it's only a poorly worded phase.


It doesn't take many "bad" things to potentially mess up a game. Sometimes, all it takes is one

xsamitt
4th Sep 2010, 15:25
It doesn't take many "bad" things to potentially mess up a game. Sometimes, all it takes is one

I agree.....

But at any rate EM are trying to walk a fine line.To be cutting edge takes some risk.I would love for 1st person all the way....but I still am very curious about this title.

Irate_Iguana
4th Sep 2010, 15:26
But the truth is there's a whole lot more good news in the interviews than bad... by a huge margin. But again, people prefer to focus only on the bad. Even if it's only a poorly worded phase.

So, what exactly is this huge amount of good info? Because apart from the fact that there are social augs and increased dialog, I'm having a hard time finding it. Combat has been turned into a standard 3rd person cover shooter with regenerating health. Melee combat has been taken out to be replaced with little cutscenes. There is a ton of switching between two perspectives. The stealth portion has been simplified. Resource management has been all but removed. Skills have been removed. All doors are now to be hacked. Even BE regenerates to a point. Apart from the improvement on social interaction they are either doing things worse then DX or just living up to the standard.

Hearing some of the team talk in the interviews doesn't exactly inspire confidence. The "deus ex was kinda slow" remark. Failure to get the orange/lemon-lime joke. The flimsy excuses for regen and 3rd person. The backpedaling on the main platform. The constant ignoring of the boards. There are a ton of things that are less than optimal when you read these interviews.

This might all still mean that we will have a good game on our hands. No way to know that until it is released. The fact of the matter is that there are a ton of things to be concerned about and there has been very little in the way of information to alleviate those fears. Focusing on the bad is easy when there is a huge amount of it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 16:00
Lol, I admit that the screens look good. I'm basing my opinion more on videos and interviews, as they give a better idea of how the game plays in my opinion.
Lol, so am I. There have been some very good interviews.




...
All this does not necessarily mean that the game will be bad, heck I believe it will still be very good...

Exactly my point.



From the information that we actually have, Human Revolution matches Deus Ex's intelligence in most areas, and tops it in a few others. Here's the ugly reality...

You hate third-person, health regen and cutscenes. From this hate you've convinced yourself that HR is a disgrace to the name Deus Ex. So long as those features are present, you and a number of other equally contorted minds on these forums will never accept this game as intelligent or respectful to the player.


Sad, but true. I guess we just have to leave them to it.

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 16:32
Lets just get right to the heart of the matter. You "loathe" Blade Runner? We need no further evidence that you've made some dangerous missteps in your development. You're clearly in some sort of funk vortex, where most good things sour in your beholding.


Meh. You don't like Dune. You're in no position to lecture. :whistle:



But another major issue, and one which you share with others here, is your hard-line approach to all things. In the same way that Invisible War is not a bad game in the least, but merely a failure to live up to its predecessor, Rainbow Six Vegas is a quality action game. The fact that they're not making classic Rainbow Six games anymore has nothing to do with Vegas 1 or 2. A game that's made is not responsible for another game not being made.

All things, Pinky? All of them? Rly?

A franchise can have an entry that is little like its predecessor. GRAW shares little with the original Ghost Recon, for example, yet they're both good games trying to portray similar ideas. R6V, and Invisible War, are not good games, however. Rainbow Six Vegas (just for those who are may not be aware what R6V stands for) utterly misunderstood what Rainbow Six was all about. The franchise is or was a relatively hardcore simulation of counter-terror activities, heavily emphasising strategic planning. You said it yourself, Vegas was an action game. If they wanted to make "Call of Counter-Terror strike", which is what R6V and its sequel were, then they should have named them properly. Invisible War, however, is another matter entirely. Not only is is a bad Deus Ex game, it's just a bad game. It's sloppily ported from console to PC, it had forgettable characters, the locations were tiny, it was simplified to ****, it utterly butchered Deus Ex canon, and it presented almost no morality in anything at all. Just to top it all off, it was horrendously voice acted. Give me Hitman: Blood Money (a game of similar era and premise) any day over IW.



Most of your concerns, however, are rendered null and void by the slew off written Previews. Folk who have seen the game at length and shared their experience. You proclaim the screenshots look good to you, but the game doesn't sound very much like Deus Ex. The Police Station in particular sounds more like Deus Ex than I had ever hoped for.

Why, because it had three ways of getting into it? That's not what I consider to be the core element of Deus Ex. The fact that one level (maybe even lots of them, maybe even all of them!) has multi path solutions has no relevance to me when the combat system has been turned into a hybrid of CoD and Mass Effect and the stealth has been turned into a Rainbow Six Vegas. I don't like any of those three franchises, and even if Deus Ex's stealth system was pretty crap (it was) that doesn't mean it should be replaced with some more crap from, in your own words, an "action game" either.



I honestly have no clue what you're on about with "epic setpieces".


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCHEsFk7tLpGx8DRekp3Svx4cZ0KuL3eG0v5BBanQnydQSfxk&t=1&usg=__qHi0oAW8e84RKp90dH29JrofWmk=
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/6499/adameb.jpg

I hereby define "epic setpieces" as "dramatically implausible **** that happens in a cutscene which you have no control over designed to make pre-pubescent teens go wao, usually followed by something compulsory." These are OK in small doses, like waking up in the MJ12 lab in DX1, but if they're overused (see any James Bond film post 1973 or any Call of Duty game), they get old fast. Things like unavoidable boss fights that probably take place with much flashbang fall under this heading.


I would very much like to address your attack on the story though. This is as clear a sign that you long to hate the game as can be. There is almost NOTHING known about the story. It is positively small and pathetic of you to claim any great disappointment with it at this stage. Yes, trans-humanism plays a role, and it is a major political factor, but we have zero understanding of the story or the conspiracies.
Out of everything, the story holds the most promise for me. The very little I know about the plot, combined what what I've read from the lead Writer, this could be an outstanding tale. It's profoundly irritating that you would b1t*h about it based on... well, nothing really.


Firstly, "you just hate the game" is the oldest fanboy tactic, please don't use it, it demeans your argument.

Secondly, I must disagree with your assertions about the story. Hearing the lead writer talk hardly inspired confidence, and seeing what we do know about the game did not either. First and foremost, one expects a writer to be articlulate. Infectiously charming she might have been, but articulate deMerle was not. That's only a minor niggle, maybe she just doesn't like interviewers or something, but since I suspect you're going to bring her up later, I thought I'd get there first. As to the story itself, what do we know about it? A firm called Sarif industries makes augs. Someone hits it, and gets Adam. He then is employed by Sarif to go kick butt. Presumably, given this is Deus Ex, Sarif turns out to have been the villain after all. Sure, there might be some clever twist, but given the unbelievably pretentious use of the Icarus myth, combined with rich use of metaphors (which is just a substitute for realism) throughout, I must say I don't hold out that much hope. Deus Ex might not have been perfect either continuity or story wise, particularly near the end, but at least it was all relatively unconventional, as well as being beautifully Lovecraftian in its handling of cyberpunk. It's layering in of various actual conspiracy theories, and giving them a plausible modus operandi, just made it better.

Although perhaps my opinion has merely been coloured by my profound lack of interest in trans-humanism in its current form, which is largely pretentious, ill conceived drivel. See the Matrix. (You're not going to like that, but if it makes you feel better, concentrate on the last two films).



Metaphors are just good writing.

No, they're not. Not when they are over-used, which they invariably are, by self-indulgent authors who are coining them left right and centre, and fashioning whole plots based on an ancient Greek morality tale.



Colour schemes are just good art design.

*Sigh*. Look out of the window. Does it have a cohesive art style? Was your entire city and all its interiors planned in one big batch to all harmonise in two colours? Somehow, I have trouble believing that it was. Not all games should be Bioshock.


The skill/augmentation system sounds incredible and even more customizable than Deus Ex

I agree with you that the augmentation trees seem to be deeper. However, I cannot agree with the skills. An RPG is about character development, and if a character cannot make himself more skilled, then I'm afraid there is something wrong with that RPG. Making machines operate more optimally is not the same as a decent skill set. I could agree with a reform of the system (e.g. you become better at using sniper rifles through using them, not through completing a quest), but not through their wholesale removal, nor may I take this point to add, the removal of the systems which they represented.



The things you say are not remotely sensible or even true.


http://www.gwalia.org.au/mirror.jpg



Human Revolution has: the subtle Deus Ex choices that have heavy and unknowable consequences.
Maybe. Maybe not. Personally the ones that have been shown so far seem painfully predictable, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.


Social Combat that requires you to observe body language.
Yeah, where you only get three ******* options per time. Even if eeny-meeny-miney-mo doesn't work, quickload will. Planescape Torment this is not.



A complex hacking system that actually makes sense.

If by "complex" you mean that three distinct systems (computers, electronics, and lockpicking) have been condensed into one, and by "actually makes sense" you mean involves a gratuitous mini game that will no doubt either be ridiculously tedious by its umpteenth use, or be heavily augmented to the point where it is no challenge at all, then we are in perfect agreement.


The same sort of Deus Ex exploration that fills in plot and characters via emails and eavesdropping and datacubes.

"LOOK, THERE'S A CONVERSATION YOU SHOULD BE LISTENING TO HERE, WE WERE AFRAID YOU MIGHT NOT HEAR IT SO WE'RE GOING TO PUT IT INTO A ******* CUTSCENE JUST TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU GOT IT!"


Not to mention the little things like manually entered keycodes

...but not passwords



weapon mods, weapon-specific ammo, multiple ammo types per-weapon, 21 augs with their own upgrade tree, and a ton of other things I can't remember.

I can't remember either, but I admit that aug/weapon side sounds good (absence of melee weapons aside)


From the information that we actually have, Human Revolution matches Deus Ex's intelligence in most areas, and tops it in a few others. Here's the ugly reality...

See above.


You hate third-person, health regen and cutscenes. From this hate you've convinced yourself that HR is a disgrace to the name Deus Ex. So long as those features are present, you and a number of other equally contorted minds on these forums will never accept this game as intelligent or respectful to the player.

Well, those three and a number of other things already dealt with here, yes. I wouldn't go quite as far as to say "disgrace to the name", since I tend to disregard franchise entries that I do not regard as worthy without further analysis (see "X-COM: Enforcer" and "XCOM" (as opposed to "X-COM")

Let me frame this diffently:

Pinky, you are a fool. I've given you a perfectly brilliant supercar here. Sadly, you're letting you're blinkered narrow-mindedness and pigheaded insistance that it should have 4 wheels and an engine blind you as to its other merits, such as the awesome stereo which you've not even listened to yet.


Whatever. You're a fool and your opinions are wrong.

I love you too, man. :flowers:

May I also make it clear that my points should only be taken in context with Pinky. I still believe the game will be good relative to what's currently on the market, just not quite as slavishly as some.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 16:46
^

A lot of text there, poor Pinky. :eek:

We all have our own opinions; each one of them as valid (or not) as any other. I guess this just illustrates that devs can't please everyone all of the time.
PS. The mirror image made me grin. :D

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 16:48
^

A lot of text there, poor Pinky. :eek:

We all have our own opinions; each one of them as valid (or not) as any other. I guess this just illustrates that devs can't please everyone all of the time.
PS. The mirror image made my grin. :D

Oh I know. Pretentious I might be, but I try not to denigrate other people's opinions. That's Pinky's job.

I don't actually think Pinky's and my tastes are that different. I'm sure we'd both like the same, high-quality game. It's just that I'd probably settle for somewhat less before going into RAAAAAAAAAAAGE mode.

:p

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 16:57
I love it when Pinky goes into rage mode. :cool:
Though I don't think he was raging just then...

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 17:01
I love it when Pinky goes into rage mode. :cool:
Though I don't think he was raging just then...

You misunderstand me, I was talking about myself. In other words, Pinky has a higher rage tolerance than myself, so it would take more to be wrong with the game to annoy him.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 17:04
^
My bad. Pinky has me intoxicated with his presence here. :nut:
PS. Looking forward to enjoying your rage mode. I will stock up on the popcorn in anticipation.

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 17:13
^
My bad. Pinky has me intoxicated with his presence here. :nut:
PS. Looking forward to enjoying your rage mode. I will stock up on the popcorn in anticipation.

I hope and pray that the game is sufficiently good that you will never have to see it.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 17:19
Seems a shame to miss out, but I do (of course) prefer the game to be good. We'll see... :)

Red
4th Sep 2010, 17:30
Whatever. You're a fool and your opinions are wrong. http://tech-pc.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/cuss.gif

http://www.shrani.si/f/13/Bc/28Xi4g09/1283620791813.jpg

WildcatPhoenix
4th Sep 2010, 18:31
I'm still waiting to see this rumored preponderance of positive evidence for the game. Jebus knows I'm up to my ears in negative news.

Anyone care to list what they consider to be positive about this game? I'm talking evidence, not statements from the developers. Visual, concrete evidence. And I'm being completely serious here.

I'll start it off: the conversation with Tong in The Hive looks excellent. Hope the majority of the convos are like this.

Shralla
4th Sep 2010, 19:02
What the hell's the point of trying to appeal to the new players? Unless you're psychic, they're gonna be just as baffled at first playing a game designed with newbies in mind as one without.

What do you mean "baffled"? How are they going to be "baffled"? And I can't even believe you're seriously asking that question. Do you know ANYTHING about marketing or trying to sell a product?

Esnuk
4th Sep 2010, 19:11
Whatever. You're a fool and your opinions are wrong. http://tech-pc.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/cuss.gif

http://a.imageshack.us/img710/8948/angrymen.png

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 19:16
Your funny pictures are redundant, as my own words expressed the same irony. Opinions can't be wrong, that's why they're called opinions.

dixieflatline
4th Sep 2010, 19:27
You're clearly in some sort of funk vortex, where most good things sour in your beholding.

Wow dude, nice line. :thumb:

dixieflatline
4th Sep 2010, 20:03
I think the big gap between what is said in the interviews ,and what the game is actually looking like it will be, is that the game designers don't actually have much allowance for defying conventions, or the ability to actually try anything different or inventive. You can get along quite well and have a succesful career just following conventions.

Wish I knew why game designers these days must follow the biggest trends of the day without wavering at all. It was somewhat sad to read today that Gearbox has changed even what will be one of the most nostaliga-inducing games ever, Duke Nukem Forever, to have regenerating health. I could be wrong but to me that will just seem so unnatural and weird in game with earlier, lets say early 2000's level design. Regen health works great for something like Modern Warfare 2 but that doesn't mean it works well for every game (like my idea of a real Deus Ex sequel.)

I think most contemporary game designers today should actually be called 'game design implentators' or 'game design replicators' because they don't seem to actually design anything; they just follow whatever guidelines are set by the highest grossing game of the genre. As is expected through the ranks of the grandfather-to-grandson family of companies that own the dev studio. The small handful of designers that made games that made the most money (and which, most likely because of the numbers, means that the games appealled to the broadest common denominators) have there games copied by everyone else. Just reskinned to whatever the game is about. Same design though.

As always, I think Deus Ex HR will be great. But perhaps it is unfair to compare it with the original game. Even though HR is a sequel, the original was was like lightening striking. Not only was the drive, intelligence, ability, money, all there together with all the right people, but the gaming landscape was way different then. Games are such big business now-adays that there isn't much room for even the most adventurous team leaders to experiment much at all. Even if they were really even into the games once upon a time.

Oh well. All that being said it is still looking like Human Revolution will be one of the most enjoyable games I play over the next year. So EM is certainly doing more things right than wrong.

RandomJunkie
4th Sep 2010, 20:19
Hey It can't be as bad as Alpha Protocol right ?

(I actually finished AP and enjoyed the story very much)

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 20:41
"LOOK RETARD, THERE'S A CONVERSATION YOU SHOULD BE LISTENING TO HERE, WE WERE AFRAID YOU MIGHT NOT HEAR IT SO WE'RE GOING TO PUT IT INTO A ******* CUTSCENE JUST TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU GOT IT!"

Every time. Every f**king time.

Eavesdropping is not a cutscene. There was a cutscene which contained eavesdropping, but the two are not the same thing.

There are conversations of varying degrees of importance that you can overhear, or miss entirely. They are in-game and natural, and not presented to you. And they are NOT cutscenes.


Why, because it had three ways of getting into it? That's not what I consider to be the core element of Deus Ex. The fact that one level (maybe even lots of them, maybe even all of them!) has multi path solutions has no relevance to me when the combat system has been turned into a hybrid of CoD and Mass Effect and the stealth has been turned into a Rainbow Six Vegas. I don't like any of those three franchises, and even if Deus Ex's stealth system was pretty crap (it was) that doesn't mean it should be replaced with some more crap from, in your own words, an "action game" either.

I've had this conversation so many times on this forum. The end result is this...
Third-Person. The whole of your quote boils down to third-person. You have no problem that there are guns (like CoD). Or that there is a cover mechanic (like ME). Taking cover in a gunfight is as natural as breathing. And taking cover behind walls and objects for stealth purposes is very important when the world still has electricity.

It is JUST the third-person aspect. You hate it, which is your right. But somehow you've convinced yourself that it's more than that. You're so revolted by it you refuse to see the gameplay is so very much like Deus Ex... it's impressive.

And if all you took from the Police Station previews was that there were three entrances, you need to reread them... all of them. There was so much familiar Deus Ex gameplay there. But you couldn't see it. And you really want to argue that you're thinking clearly?


Not all games should be Bioshock.

This makes me deeply sad as an artist. You have no comprehension of what Bioshock did for the gaming community. It put forth the challenge to every art director in the business that their design work could be more. The threshold for which they would say "okay, our design philosophy is good enough" was pushed back by a great distance.

You don't understand why this is so very wonderful, but it is. It was why I was so forgiving of them for creating an aesthetic that varied so much from Deus Ex. A clean sober mind shouldn't have done that. But every artist in the industry is still drunk on the creative juices that filled them up after seeing what 2K did for Bioshock. And what they've created is beautiful and unique. And that is all for the good.


Yeah, where you only get three *** options per time. Even if eeny-meeny-miney-mo doesn't work, quickload will. Planescape Torment this is not.

The point is there's actual depth to these occasional exchanges. A layer of Depth beyond what we had in Deus Ex. But for some reason you don't like that.


If by "complex" you mean that three distinct systems (computers, electronics, and lockpicking) have been condensed into one, and by "actually makes sense" you mean involves a gratuitous mini game that will no doubt either be ridiculously tedious by its umpteenth use, or be heavily augmented to the point where it is no challenge at all, then we are in perfect agreement.

Yeah, it's entirely likely the mini-game will get tedious. I never said it would be good fun. The point was that there is a good bit of complexity to the system, and thus evidence against your assertions that HR is lacking in intelligence.

Also, last I heard, there was no word on whether or not locked computers might still have log-in and password capability. I agree that it's unlikely, as these are designed around consoles. But the manually-entered keycodes do give me some hope on this front.



Pinky, you are a fool. I've given you a perfectly brilliant supercar here. Sadly, you're letting you're blinkered narrow-mindedness and pigheaded insistance that it should have 4 wheels and an engine blind you as to its other merits, such as the awesome stereo which you've not even listened to yet.

Actually, I've done a rather good job of illustrating that, based on the information available, the car does have four wheels and an engine. And the stereo might even be better than last years model.

You on the other hand don't like the angle at which the photo was taken, and so have convinced yourself the wheels are a cheap façade, and the engine under the hood is a lie, and the stereo system is a contrivance you could live without.



Yes, I felt kinda proud with that analogy.:)

mad825
4th Sep 2010, 20:45
Every time. Every f**king time.

Eavesdropping is not a cutscene. There was a cutscene which contained eavesdropping, but the two are not the same thing.

There are conversations of varying degrees of importance that you can overhear, or miss entirely. They are in-game and natural, and not presented to you. And they are NOT cutscenes.


ahh, so I will pose you a little question.

I will assume you have played Fallout 3, yea? well then, tell me how many hours worth of cutscenes does fallout 3 have?

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 20:54
ahh, so I will pose you a little question.

I will assume you have played Fallout 3, yea? well then, tell me how many hours worth of cutscenes does fallout 3 have?

That was two questions. And I'm pretty sure the answer is zero to the latter and Yes to the former. You now owe me $10... or the equivalent in your own currency.

mad825
4th Sep 2010, 20:57
I'm pretty sure the answer to that is zero. You now owe me $10... or the equivalent in your own currency.

well that's were you might be wrong.

according to the BBFC there are 11 hours worth of cut scenes (http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classified.nsf/ClassifiedWorks/9AF9EF36E40D6E2D802574BA004BF90F)!

it's really the definition you might be getting wrong.

even so, wikdictory/oxford has a clear understanding of the definition:

(video games) A typically non-interactive cinematic narrative technique used in video games to advance the story. Cut scenes may be presented with either full motion video or may be done with the game engine. Cut scenes presented in-engine can be interactive, the player may be able to change the camera angle or press a button to perform an action.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Sep 2010, 21:02
Eavesdropping is not a cutscene. There was a cutscene which contained eavesdropping, but the two are not the same thing.

There are conversations of varying degrees of importance that you can overhear, or miss entirely. They are in-game and natural, and not presented to you. And they are NOT cutscenes.



Compare this scene with the overheard conversation in the VersaLife labs w/ Maggie Chow and Bob Page, and you will see why this infamous ventshaft cutscene is so infuriating to those of us who value immersion and 1st person. In Deus Ex these things transpired just like in real life. You could miss them, you could move on, if you chose to. Or you could sit and listen. In DXHR they don't give you that option. They say, "Hey there, kid, this is an important moment, so just sit back and enjoy our awesome l33t Square Enix cutscene mastery while you grab a soda from the fridge. Oh hey look, a guy wearing a toaster for body armor!"




I've had this conversation so many times on this forum. The end result is this...
Third-Person. The whole of your quote boils down to third-person. You have no problem that there are guns (like CoD). Or that there is a cover mechanic (like ME). Taking cover in a gunfight is as natural as breathing. And taking cover behind walls and objects for stealth purposes is very important when the world still has electricity.

It is JUST the third-person aspect. You hate it, which is your right. But somehow you've convinced yourself that it's more than that. You're so revolted by it you refuse to see the gameplay is so very much like Deus Ex... it's impressive.


You are rapidly turning into one of the most myopic of the True Believers, Pinky. Deus Ex gameplay is not simply "multiple path approaches." Yes, it is clear the designers have given the players an ability to a) shoot their way in, b) sneak in, or c) talk their way in. There may even be a lot more options available.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE LIMIT TO "DEUS EX GAMEPLAY." Read that again. Then again, just to make sure you got it.

Deus Ex gameplay consists of:

1. Skills vs Aug balance. This was huge. This is the core of RPG. In my opinion, if you had to drop one or the other, I would drop augmentations long before skills. It is absolutely asinine that a person has to have some kind of chip installed in his brain in order to know how to pick a lock, or hack a computer, or read someone's body language enough to influence them.

2. Multiple paths to a mission objective. Again, this part seems to have been preserved.

3. Immersion/simulation. All scripted events, dialogue, action, tranmissions, etc are witnessed through the eyes of the character. In fact, I wish Deus' conversations were viewed in 1st person (ala Half Life, or the convo w/ Tong in The Hive). I don't give a damn about how "cool" my character looks, or what nifty little mechanisms move around his arms, or how "awesome" it is to watch him jump out a window while a bomb explodes behind him (gag!). Immersion, for the umpteenth time, is about convincing the player that he/she is the person whose life is on the line, the person who is making these choices that govern the fate of the world, the person who is an augmented superhuman, not sitting back and watching yet another pre-rendered cutscene of someone else do exciting things.

4. Moral choices. Deus Ex was set in a very morally ambiguous world. Are "terrorists" like the NSF really evil? Can one man fix a corrupt system from the inside, or should he destroy said system and start over? Is there such a thing as "justified violence?" And so forth. The jury is still out on DXHR's ability to handle these questions with maturity and subtlety. So far, the beat-you-over-the-head nature of the Icarus myth and the Renaissance themes suggest this will be fumbled as well. And all the blatant transhumanist/anti-transhumanist jargon. But this part may yet surprise me.



This makes me deeply sad as an artist. You have no comprehension of what Bioshock did for the gaming community. It put forth the challenge to every art director in the business that their design work could be more. The threshold for which they would say "okay, our design philosophy is good enough" was pushed back by a great distance.

You don't understand why this is so very wonderful, but it is. It was why I was so forgiving of them for creating an aesthetic that varied so much from Deus Ex. A clean sober mind shouldn't have done that. But every artist in the industry is still drunk on the creative juices that filled them up after seeing what 2K did for Bioshock. And what they've created is beautiful and unique. And that is all for the good.


I give credit to Bioshock for being innovative, for doing something out of the ordinary. What I do not
give credit to is the legion of developers who came after and said, "Hey, Bioshock had a clearly discernible 'art style' that governed every element of its design! And it sold a bunch of units! Let's make sure we splatter painfully obvious art motifs all across our game so we can say it had an artistic 'vision,' and it'll sell!" Art direction should be like the bassline in music; supportive, fleshing out and strengthening the existing pieces, but not overwhelming the other voices of the melody.

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 21:12
You are rapidly turning into one of the most myopic of the True Believers, Pinky. Deus Ex gameplay is not simply "multiple path approaches."

If you cannot show me where I suggested that it was, I'm putting you on my Ignore List.

And just for emphasis, I shall quote my favorite Pinky Post.


It's all subjective I'm learning. For me, the Deus Ex experience consisted of a few key elements: Firstly, Cyberpunk universe. Open, multi-path environments. Multi-solution obstacles. A crowded, living world of NPCs that you can talk to. Player driven conversations that carried the story. Lots to do; side quests and exploration of the environments. The ability to truly play as I prefer; talk my way in, shoot my way in, hack my way in, or sneak my way in. Lived-in environments with books, datacubes and emails that flesh out the reality of the world, characters and story. Choices that affect the story. Unknowable alliances of everyone you meet. World travel to real locations. And of course... conspiracies.

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 21:15
well that's were you might be wrong.

according to the BBFC there are 11 hours worth of cut scenes (http://www.bbfc.co.uk/website/Classified.nsf/ClassifiedWorks/9AF9EF36E40D6E2D802574BA004BF90F)!

it's really the definition you might be getting wrong.

I really, truly don't understand what you're getting at. And now you owe me $20.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Sep 2010, 21:19
And if all you took from the Police Station previews was that there were three entrances, you need to reread them... all of them. There was so much familiar Deus Ex gameplay there. But you couldn't see it. And you really want to argue that you're thinking clearly?


If you can show me this bounty of "familiar Deus Ex gameplay" maybe I'll give a f.uck about your Ignore List.

Seriously, what a childish response.

mad825
4th Sep 2010, 21:28
I really, truly don't understand what you're getting at. And now you owe me $20.

your understanding of a "cut-scene" is either misunderstood or very inaccurate.

as the best of my research skills go, a cut-scene is something (an event ect.) with dialogue that advances a plot regardless of the restrictions/freedom of the in-game engine.

your answer of "zero" shows that there is a big difference on what professionals think on what a cut-scene is and what you think.

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 21:48
If you can show me this bounty of "familiar Deus Ex gameplay" maybe I'll give a f.uck about your Ignore List.

Seriously, what a childish response.

Computers to riffle through. Security systems to overcome. Cops that you need to be careful around or they'll turn hostile on you. Environmental obstacles that can be manipulated to get where you're going. Vent-crawling. A locked door that you might not have the code for... so blow it up. Rooms and floors to explore. Items to steel off desks and fallen enemies. A bustling community of NPCs that you can talk to if you're not shooting. In the midst of being surrounded by enemies, you sneak into the morgue and have a conversation with someone as though you're supposed to be there. Have a conversation with the desk clerk with potential consequences for both him and you. Crawl into a vent, see that it leads out in an inhospitable position, turn back and find another way...

And there is absolutely nothing childish in taking offense at a blatant misrepresentation of ones own stance. It's like looking at my vast and varied bookshelf full of books, and saying "there's more to literature than Moby Dick, you should be ashamed of yourself!" It would be a humorous situation if you weren't serious. Reading your posts are often times an exercise in controlling my gag reflex.

WildcatPhoenix
4th Sep 2010, 21:53
Reading your posts are often times an exercise in controlling my gag reflex.

Let's see, now where did Pretentious Old Man put that mirror .jpeg? Hmm....

Get the hell over yourself. You are the most caustic, obnoxious, self-important poster on this board. You act like you are the supreme judge of "taste" or intelligence. So add me to your Ignore list, be a petulant little child.

I really don't care.

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 21:58
your understanding of a "cut-scene" is either misunderstood or very inaccurate.

as the best of my research skills go, a cut-scene is something (an event ect.) with dialogue that advances a plot regardless of the restrictions/freedom of the in-game engine.

your answer of "zero" shows that there is a big difference on what professionals think on what a cut-scene is and what you think.

That may be. But it's irrelevant to the conversation we've been having.

So let me get this straight: It is your testimony that if you're walking down a hallway and pass two NPCs having a conversation, and you don't so much as stop and listen, that was a cutscene? If you can show me an industry professional that claims so, I'll grant you a decadent reward.

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 22:07
So add me to your Ignore list, be a petulant little child.

I really don't care.

Well, I was only half-kidding about the ignore list. But I did as you asked, and you ignored it. As you ignore all solid arguments and true realities. If you weren't so weak and frightened you'd see I actually put some effort into my post. But it was wasted on you. My cleverness is always wasted on you. :(

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 22:12
Every time. Every f**king time.

Eavesdropping is not a cutscene. There was a cutscene which contained eavesdropping, but the two are not the same thing.

There are conversations of varying degrees of importance that you can overhear, or miss entirely. They are in-game and natural, and not presented to you. And they are NOT cutscenes.

Correction, there were two instances of eavesdropping, one of which was the vent cutscene, which I suspect you are talking about, but in your zeal you appear to have forgotten the other cutscene within the Hive itself, as the guys exchanged information. The game went into stand-still in-renderer cutscene mode, just to check you wouldn’t miss it.



I've had this conversation so many times on this forum. The end result is this...
Third-Person. The whole of your quote boils down to third-person. You have no problem that there are guns (like CoD). Or that there is a cover mechanic (like ME). Taking cover in a gunfight is as natural as breathing. And taking cover behind walls and objects for stealth purposes is very important when the world still has electricity.

It is JUST the third-person aspect. You hate it, which is your right. But somehow you've convinced yourself that it's more than that. You're so revolted by it you refuse to see the gameplay is so very much like Deus Ex... it's impressive.

Don’t presume to tell me what I do and don’t have a problem with. Of course I don’t have a problem with CoD’s guns, but I do have a problem with its health regen. On the other hand, I definitely have a problem with ME’s (and indeed any game that has it’s) cover mechanic. It makes for mindless duck-cover-shoot-cover-shoot-cover-shoot-cover-shoot-win gameplay. I will officially withdraw all criticism of it if it is still possible to crouch, jump, and lean. Sadly, in your customary zeal to disagree, you have not appraised me correctly at all. I find the cover mechanics and health regen much bigger problems than third person, although the whole design process of “let the player see his cool augmentations!” is I think symptomatic of the shallowness we’re dealing with here.



This makes me deeply sad as an artist. You have no comprehension of what Bioshock did for the gaming community. It put forth the challenge to every art director in the business that their design work could be more. The threshold for which they would say "okay, our design philosophy is good enough" was pushed back by a great distance.

You don't understand why this is so very wonderful, but it is. It was why I was so forgiving of them for creating an aesthetic that varied so much from Deus Ex. A clean sober mind shouldn't have done that. But every artist in the industry is still drunk on the creative juices that filled them up after seeing what 2K did for Bioshock. And what they've created is beautiful and unique. And that is all for the good.


As someone who eagerly awaited Bioshock, I never wanted art direction, I wanted a ******* system shock sequel. In the absence of that (which is why I was bitterly disappointed), I must admit that the art direction did work for Bioshock. Why? Because Rapture is an underwater utopia created by an eccentric, which then went wrong. That’s one, impossibly rich man, building his own empire at the same time. I repeat my former challenge: Look out of your window, and tell me whether there is a constant design ethic and colour scheme applied throughout. Of course there bloody well isn’t, presumably you live in some form of urban settlement, in which different buildings have grown up at different times to different designs, and the street clutter, cars, and signs all appear in totally different colours. Art direction is good in some games. It’s not good when the primary objective is verisimilitude, and verisimilitude MUST be Deus Ex’s primary goal throughout if it is to succeed. Creativity is subservient to reality in a game that tries to be like real life.


The point is there's actual depth to these occasional exchanges. A layer of Depth beyond what we had in Deus Ex. But for some reason you don't like that.


Of course it’s better than Deus Ex’s conversations. That doesn’t make it good. Compare it to Planescape Torment, a game even older than Deus Ex, and you will see that it’s still pretty poor. If there were a decent number of options there (let’s say five or six) it would be a different story. What if I don’t want to absolve, plead, or crush? What if I want to use blackmail, wit, humour? What if I want to tell a ***** joke? What if I want to do something other than three paltry options, which I can either a.) guess or b.) quick load. That’s a major disappointment to me, even if the idea underlying it is good.



Yeah, it's entirely likely the mini-game will get tedious. I never said it would be good fun. The point was that there is a good bit of complexity to the system, and thus evidence against your assertions that HR is lacking in intelligence.

They took computers, electronics and lock picks, condensed them all into one, and then removed all resource management, instead implementing what will no doubt be a tedious and arbitrary hacking minigame, that despite your assertions has nothing to do with real hardware or software hacking.


Also, last I heard, there was no word on whether or not locked computers might still have log-in and password capability. I agree that it's unlikely, as these are designed around consoles. But the manually-entered keycodes do give me some hope on this front.

Nah. They said that the game is no longer paused on entrance screens, and since typing on a console takes about a century, give or take a few weeks, that seems unlikely. Damn shame.



Actually, I've done a rather good job of illustrating that, based on the information available, the car does have four wheels and an engine. And the stereo might even be better than last years model.

You on the other hand don't like the angle at which the photo was taken, and so have convinced yourself the wheels are a cheap façade, and the engine under the hood is a lie, and the stereo system is a contrivance you could live without.

On the contrary. I have seen the supercar, and have seen that it is a Bentley Continental GT. I then analyse its intended clientele, and discover that it has primarily been aimed at footballers, their wives, playboys, and Arab sheiks, rather than the English gentlemen to which the marque was originally intended for. Because of this, I decided to buy something else.



Yes, I felt kinda proud with that analogy.:)

What, you wanna cookie?
















My cleverness is always wasted on you

Alas that I, too, am all too well acquainted with these sentiments. Still, thanks for effecting the introduction with them. :D

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 22:40
The game went into stand-still in-renderer cutscene mode, just to check you wouldn’t miss it.

I am adamant that it doesn’t. The play-tester stopped moving to listen to the conversation, but there was nothing that suggested that the game held you there and forced you to listen.


Don’t presume to tell me what I do and don’t have a problem with.

I think you misunderstood me here. I did presume, but it was not the things you thought. I presumed that you did not have a problem with guns in general, or cover-mechanics in general. I only referenced CoD and ME because you did. The truth is, the health regen is nothing like CoD and the cover is nothing like ME. I would never presume you didn't have a problem with those mechanics in those games. Hell, even I do.


Of course it’s better than Deus Ex’s conversations. That doesn’t make it good. Compare it to Planescape Torment, a game even older than Deus Ex, and you will see that it’s still pretty poor. If there were a decent number of options there (let’s say five or six) it would be a different story. What if I don’t want to absolve, plead, or crush? What if I want to use blackmail, wit, humour? What if I want to tell a * joke? What if I want to do something other than three paltry options, which I can either a.) guess or b.) quick load. That’s a major disappointment to me, even if the idea underlying it is good.

The three emotional responses are not how the conversation system works. It is only how the Verbal Combat (or whatever it's called) works... those occasional instances where you try and persuade someone. They are in first-person, while ordinary conversations with ordinary dialog options take place in third-person.

I'm pretty sure I have that right.



On the contrary. I have seen the supercar, and have seen that it is a Bentley Continental GT. I then analyse its intended clientele, and discover that it has primarily been aimed at footballers, their wives, playboys, and Arab sheiks, rather than the English gentlemen to which the marque was originally intended for. Because of this, I decided to buy something else.

Nicely done. :thumb: Though more foul delusions.


Alas that I, too, am all too well acquainted with these sentiments. Still, thanks for effecting the introduction with them.

I live to serve.

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 22:43
I am adamant that it doesn’t. The play-tester stopped moving to listen to the conversation, but there was nothing that suggested that the game held you there and forced you to listen.



I think you misunderstood me here. I did presume, but it was not the things you thought. I presumed that you did not have a problem with guns in general, or cover-mechanics in general. I only referenced CoD and ME because you did. The truth is, the health regen is nothing like CoD and the cover is nothing like ME. I would never presume you didn't have a problem with those mechanics in those games. Hell, even I do.



The three emotional responses are not how the conversation system works. It is only how the Verbal Combat (or whatever it's called) works... those occasional instances where you try and persuade someone. They are in first-person, while ordinary conversations with ordinary dialog options take place in third-person.

I'm pretty sure I have that right.




Nicely done. :thumb: Though more foul delusions.



I live to serve.


Shall we call a truce, Jeeves? :flowers:

Pinky_Powers
4th Sep 2010, 22:47
Definitely. I need to take a nap. :wave:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 22:52
The drama over cutscenes merits a bumper bag of popcorn, and I'm more than happy to share. :group_hug:
On a serious note, why are people complaining about cut-scenes now? I find the cinematography fantastic.

Fluffis
5th Sep 2010, 00:10
The drama over cutscenes merits a bumper bag of popcorn, and I'm more than happy to share. :group_hug:
On a serious note, why are people complaining about cut-scenes now? I find the cinematography fantastic.

I thought we'd complained about them since we heard about them the first time...? I know I have.

Anywho: I think it's fair to say that the main complaint is cut-scenes replacing actual playing, and interrupting action. The vent conversation, the "Box Guard" arriving, the "A Bomb!" scene, TP (non-interactive) take-downs.

The problem is in fact illustrated by your own choice of word: "cinematography". This isn't supposed to be a movie. I know I want to play the game; not watch it.

BTW: I'll have some of those popcorns. :D

WildcatPhoenix
5th Sep 2010, 00:43
I thought we'd complained about them since we heard about them the first time...? I know I have.

....

The problem is in fact illustrated by your own choice of word: "cinematography". This isn't supposed to be a movie. I know I want to play the game; not watch it.


No kidding. I feel like we've explained our position on this a thousand times. Cinema and video games are two entirely different forms of entertainment/art. Scripted, non-interactive, mid-mission cutscenes are selling video games extremely short of their potential for player-driven storytelling.

To those who doubt my sincerity on this, I BELIEVE HUMAN REVOLUTION WILL BE FUN. Sure, it'll be cool to play through and kick lots of ass with claymore augs and takedown arm blades and whatnot. And you know what? Modern Warfare 2 was fun, for awhile. And it was dumb as hell. But I played it for about a month, put the controller down, and haven't thought about it since. Not once.

Whereas with Deus Ex, I still go back and play through the game at least a couple times a year. And I still find new lines of dialogue, new datacubes/e-mails, new and interesting things about a game that has yet to be equalled. I think it's a shame HR is selling itself short of the heritage Warren Spector and Ion Storm began.

jtr7
5th Sep 2010, 00:58
How does one know there are enough complaints worth complaining about without knowing the nature of the complaints, and why ask if not to encourage more?

FrankCSIS
5th Sep 2010, 06:09
Scripted, non-interactive, mid-mission cutscenes are selling video games extremely short of their potential for player-driven storytelling.

Pandora Directive, by far the best FMV game I've played, was filled with really amusing, and sometimes thrilling filmed scenes, which showed the potential of FMV. But one thing I will never forget is Aaron Conners saying pretty much every cutscene you see in the game, as fun as they might be, were due to technical limitations. Every action scene they could not do in first person, basically, were shot with live actors.

Funny thing, there is one bit when you track down a killer all the way to the roof, and sneak up on him for a takedown. The "playing" part ends as you reach his back, and first person transits into a filmed takedown. Chris said he really wanted to have the fight in-game, in first person, but they simply couldn't do it at the time. In light of the third person takedowns, I find this statement to be rather amusing, over 14 years later.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Sep 2010, 08:35
I thought we'd complained about them since we heard about them the first time...?
So, you're just jumping on the bandwagon then. :p


Anywho: I think it's fair to say that the main complaint is cut-scenes replacing actual playing, and interrupting action. The vent conversation, the "Box Guard" arriving, the "A Bomb!" scene, TP (non-interactive) take-downs.
Oh well, each to his own. I find that cutscenes can enhance the game experience.


The problem is in fact illustrated by your own choice of word: "cinematography". This isn't supposed to be a movie. I know I want to play the game; not watch it.
BUT, it isn't a movie. It IS a game. As already said, the cinematography looks gorgeous... so there is no "problem" as far as I am concerned.


BTW: I'll have some of those popcorns. :D
I'll think about it... :rolleyes:























Kidding. :rasp:




... and why ask if not to encourage more?

I know, I know. I have a really naughty streak. :naughty:

lithos
5th Sep 2010, 12:33
I find the cinematography fantastic.

And I found the gameplay of The Battleship Potemkin just awesome.

Fluffis
5th Sep 2010, 14:17
So, you're just jumping on the bandwagon then. :p


There wasn't a bandwagon when I started. ;)



Oh well, each to his own. I find that cutscenes can enhance the game experience.


Oh well, each to his own. :p



BUT, it isn't a movie. It IS a game. As already said, the cinematography looks gorgeous... so there is no "problem" as far as I am concerned.


Every time the player is removed from control, and becomes a passive on-looker, you come closer to it being a movie. Every time you press one button and the character performs a sequence of actions, you come closer to this: Dragon's Lair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvk8E9RwT5g). The ultimate in cinematography-driven gameplay... released in 1983.



I'll think about it... :rolleyes:

Kidding. :rasp:


Phew! you had me worried there :p

WildcatPhoenix
5th Sep 2010, 15:20
And I found the gameplay of The Battleship Potemkin just awesome.

Hehehe, I see what you did there. :D

Shralla
5th Sep 2010, 18:50
The drama over cutscenes merits a bumper bag of popcorn, and I'm more than happy to share. :group_hug:
On a serious note, why are people complaining about cut-scenes now? I find the cinematography fantastic.

What? Even with everybody on here thinking I'm some sort of "apologist," cutscenes are one thing that I've never given the A-OK to. There is no reason to have cutscenes, and if the gameplay demos we've seen/heard are any indication, we're going to be getting a lot of them. Just what part of eavesdropping from a vent requires a cutscene that has nothing to do with you or anybody you're interacting with? Do they think that people are too stupid to listen to conversations from vents anymore, and that they need to put in a cutscene so people will pay attention?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Sep 2010, 20:42
And I found the gameplay of The Battleship Potemkin just awesome.
If it rocks your boat, then it must be good.



...you come closer to Dragon's Lair. The ultimate in cinematography-driven gameplay... released in 1983.
Hehe, but I don't think DX:HR will be anything like DL, so don't panic.


...we're going to be getting a lot of them.
Just what part of eavesdropping from a vent requires a cutscene that has nothing to do with you or anybody you're interacting with? Do they think that people are too stupid to listen to conversations from vents anymore, and that they need to put in a cutscene so people will pay attention?

What do you call a "lot of them"? Besides, if the gameplay is huge then the cutscenes will seem minimal by comparison, no? You're free to disagree with that of course, just my own assumption and not something I'm worried about personally. The vent cutscene isn't a problem for me either tbh, and I don't think they added it because they think people are too stupid to listen to convos from vents. Perhaps more a case of wishing to show the player a closer view of the characters' facial expressions and also the environment, for example. Still, if you find this a problem then that is your prerogative, of course.

Mindmute
5th Sep 2010, 20:51
Perhaps more a case of wishing to show the player a closer view of the characters' facial expressions and also the environment, for example. Still, if you find this a problem then that is your prerogative, of course.

If we want to see the environment, we just need to look around. The character's expressions are also seen in detail in the dialogues, especially in the "social combats" and you supposedly just had one with the bartender. That cutscene *is* a way of advancing the story, since the info you need to continue is presented there.
If it were just for show, they'd have other places they could put them in, like at the start the mission area or inside an already ongoing conversation and that would be very less intrusive.
That placement screams "We were afraid you'd leave before the conversation was over and therefore miss the critical info, so here's a cutscene", it's not just Shralla thinking that.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Sep 2010, 20:56
If we want to see the environment, we just need to look around...
No need to state the obvious, I do understand the reasoning; I'm just willing to accept an alternative to the view-from-vent only scenario; that's all.

Mindmute
5th Sep 2010, 20:59
No need to state the obvious, I do understand the reasoning; I'm just willing to accept an alternative to the view-from-vent only scenario; that's all.

The thing is that this alternative isn't gameplay, it's a cinematic, and contributes nothing to overall game level. It just forces the player to watch a scripted scene through a new perspective for no reason whatsoever, for me and most others judging by the general comments, it just jars the player out of living the experience into seeing it for a few moments.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
5th Sep 2010, 21:03
Yes, I get this reasoning too but personally don't find cutscenes to be out-of-the-ordinary, or that they necessarily break immersion. But we're all different.

Pinky_Powers
6th Sep 2010, 15:44
Cutscenes have been used in excellent games in the past, and they'll be used in excellent games in the future. Whether or not they detract from the Deus Ex feel will depend entirely on their quality and tone. So far the cutscenes we've seen haven't instilled me with a lot of confidence. The Tong one certainly wasn't great, but it wasn't all that bad, either. The Barrette scene on the other hand... well, I just hate what we've seen of Barrette in general, so it's hard to be properly objective.

WildcatPhoenix
6th Sep 2010, 16:03
My question is this: when you refer to the "camera" in a video game, what are you referring to?

A game that strives for immersion/simulation/whatever-you-want-to-call-it uses the "camera" to show what the player character is seeing with his/her own two eyes.

Using the infamous vent scene for example, how does Adam manage to see that close to Tong's face? The camera seems to be placed directly on Tong's desk, meaning that for Adam to see what we see, he'd have to be hiding next to Tong or standing in plain view. The audience, or player, is getting access to visual information that our supposed avatar, Adam Jensen, should not have access to.

Cinematic, yes, but not immersive. It makes me feel like I am watching Adam Jensen, not being Adam Jensen.

Nyysjan
6th Sep 2010, 16:32
Cinematic, yes, but not immersive. It makes me feel like I am watching Adam Jensen, not being Adam Jensen.

Bingo.:thumb:

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Sep 2010, 16:36
Cinematic, yes, but not immersive. It makes me feel like I am watching Adam Jensen, not being Adam Jensen.

You're doing neither: you're just growing up with the industry.



<We can turn this into a meme if we really try.

WildcatPhoenix
6th Sep 2010, 16:39
You're doing neither: you're just growing up with the industry.



<We can turn this into a meme if we really try.

Hehehe, this must be done. :D

AxiomaticBadger
6th Sep 2010, 16:41
The disconnect may be intentional.

In your usual fps, you are presented with a blank slate. DE was similar. Sure, JC had a history, but he wasn't exactly personality of the year.

With Adam we're being given a defined character to control, an effect enhanced via 3rd person.
Just a thought.


OT: @Pretentious Old Man:- You, uh, know that the Matrix doesn't have anything to do with transhumanism, right?

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Sep 2010, 16:41
Hehehe, this must be done. :D

It is settled. Let the memeage commence.

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Sep 2010, 16:43
Pretentious Old Man:- You, uh, know that the Matrix doesn't have anything to do with transhumanism, right?

Correct, but I class them under the same banner of sanctimonious garbage.

WildcatPhoenix
6th Sep 2010, 16:54
With Adam we're being given a defined character to control, an effect enhanced via 3rd person.
Just a thought.


Maybe so. But if this is the case, then we have absolutely stepped away from the core of Deus Ex, that same core the PR types from Eidos would want us to believe they have so carefully preserved.

We will be watching a story unfold in Human Revolution (perhaps even a good story?), but we will only be participating in about half of it. Make no mistake, boys and girls, there are going to be a TON of cutscenes in this game. It's being co-designed by Square Enix. We've already seen cutscenes of:

1. The dive out the window as bomb explodes, "boyscout," etc.
2. Adam tries to stop a hacker, who shoots himself in the head.
3. Vent shaft eavesdropping.
4. Adam falling out a window as some lady screams.
5. Adam using the "Icarus landing system" to land in the street.
6. Barrett yelling "you'll never find him" and shooting.

I've probably forgotten (or mentally blocked) some more. I can hear the protests already. "Hey, these are just from the trailers! There's no evidence these will actually be in the game!" I disagree. I don't think Square Enix spent all that time developing a lot of those scenes just for them to appear in a brief trailer. These are going to appear in the game, along with incessant 3rd person takedowns, 3rd person convos (a holdover from the original games that I would prefer to go away), and 3rd person augmentations.

You will be watching a movie. Probably a cool, visually interesting, action-packed movie. Nothing terribly wrong with that; films like The Bourne Ultimatum, The Italian Job, Mission Impossible III, etc are fun and skillfully made (not trying to start a movie debate, just using examples). But those are movies. The audience doesn't believe they are Jason Bourne. They don't personally perform any of those stunts, or fight any of those assassins, or talk their way past a guard. They just sit back and observe.

So get ready to sit back and observe some really cool cutscenes.

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 17:06
The disconnect may be intentional.

In your usual fps, you are presented with a blank slate. DE was similar. Sure, JC had a history, but he wasn't exactly personality of the year.

With Adam we're being given a defined character to control, an effect enhanced via 3rd person.
Just a thought.


You know what you are saying right?, because this is exactly what DeusEx was about. You were JC, had a history but YOU defined who he was and who he would become. You yourself defined this by his actions.


The problem is in fact illustrated by your own choice of word: "cinematography". This isn't supposed to be a movie. I know I want to play the game; not watch it.

Exactly, I mean how awesome would it have been if you just planted that bomb and noticed the timer? You would be like OMG how the F*** do I get myself out of this. It would have a) added immersion b) added so much to the gameplay and c) gave the player yet again another patch of choice. If he had leg enhancements maybe he could have run out of the door in time? what if he didn't notice the timer at all? he'd be ****ed and blown to bits. And maybe, just maybe the player could have avoided that confrontation with the 'boss' there.

I hope this paints a clear image of how the scenes that you set up could have been so much better if you actually did less work there and had the player take care of how to get out of there.

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Sep 2010, 17:16
The industry has grown up beyond the point of gameplay. Cinematics sell better, because they make the experience more "epic WAO".

Mindmute
6th Sep 2010, 17:16
Exactly, I mean how awesome would it have been if you just planted that bomb and noticed the timer? You would be like OMG how the F*** do I get myself out of this. It would have a) added immersion b) added so much to the gameplay and c) gave the player yet again another patch of choice. If he had leg enhancements maybe he could have run out of the door in time? what if he didn't notice the timer at all? he'd be ****ed and blown to bits. And maybe, just maybe the player could have avoided that confrontation with the 'boss' there.

I hope this paints a clear image of how the scenes that you set up could have been so much better if you actually did less work there and had the player take care of how to get out of there.

Absolutely agree.
If kept in 1st person the bomb being planted would've been smack in the middle of your perspective. Not noticing it would have been your fault, rather than something forced uppon you. Even a timer of 15 seconds would be reasonable, to allow the player some room to freak out.

It'd have been a very strong moment in gameplay if done right...

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 17:27
Absolutely agree.
If kept in 1st person the bomb being planted would've been smack in the middle of your perspective. Not noticing it would have been your fault, rather than something forced uppon you. Even a timer of 15 seconds would be reasonable, to allow the player some room to freak out.

It'd have been a very strong moment in gameplay if done right...

That being exactly my point, and my reasoning why there should be no room for cut scenes in Deusex at all.
And here's to hoping this actually reaches the developers ears because this would mean so much and make a huge difference in game play separating this game from all other random 'action shooters'.

EDIT: In case money is involved (it always is) this is a HUGE selling point.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Sep 2010, 17:48
So get ready to sit back and observe some really cool cutscenes.
Excellent. I'm looking forward to watching them - just as much as I am looking forward to playing the game.

Mindmute
6th Sep 2010, 17:58
Excellent. I'm looking forward to watching them - just as much as I am looking forward to playing the game.

Not trying to annoy you, but look at it like this: even if you don't mind the cutscenes, if they weren't there and were replaced with the same part of the story but in actual gameplay you'd have more game to look forward to playing ;)

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 18:00
Having more game to sell in the same process, giving the player freedom of choice here would have been beneficial for both sides.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Sep 2010, 18:22
Not trying to annoy you, but look at it like this: even if you don't mind the cutscenes, if they weren't there and were replaced with the same part of the story but in actual gameplay you'd have more game to look forward to playing ;)

Don't go losing any sleep over this, discussions never annoy me - I find them immensely enjoyable.

I see where you're coming from, for sure. I suppose I'm one of those people who enjoys experiencing everything, good gameplay and good cutscenes. Just call me greedy, I guess. :o

Shralla
6th Sep 2010, 18:45
You will be watching a movie...So get ready to sit back and observe some really cool cutscenes.

And even when I agree with him, WildcatPhoenix still manages to sound like Dugas came and personally pissed in his Wheaties. I don't get it. Just because you don't like what's going on doesn't mean you have to present likely gross exaggerations as pure fact, something which you could not possibly know at this point. I don't like the cutscenes, yeah. There seem to be too many of them, sure. But does that give us free reign to say "Oh lol you won't play this game you'll watch this movie"? Well I guess we CAN say whatever we want, but the fact is that it just makes you sound butthurt, and come across as someone with no patience and no ability to be open-minded at all. Who knows. Maybe we've seen all the cutscenes there are to see. Let's take the police morgue previews for example. Nobody writing those previews have mentioned any cutscenes in that area. That's a good sign, right?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Sep 2010, 18:50
Reality check. At the end of the day, DX:HR is a video game and not a movie.

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 19:27
Reality check. At the end of the day, DX:HR is a video game and not a movie.

What about games like Fahrenheit (Or the Indigo Prophecy renamed)? 90% of that game is cut-scene where you can change a bit of the outcome with button combinations. This is almost a movie but is in fact still a video game.
Not saying that it becomes a bad game, it's a good one in it's own right but it's not an action RPG like DX:HR.
I guess people are afraid that too much cut-scenes will deter from the actual game play since those cut-scenes could have been normal game play just the same and would actually have improved the game play that way.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Sep 2010, 19:34
What about games like Fahrenheit (Or the Indigo Prophecy renamed)? 90% of that game is cut-scene...

90%?!? No kidding!!
Still, I don't think DH:HR will be like this by any stretch of the imagination... or paranoia... or whatever we wanna call it. :D

WildcatPhoenix
6th Sep 2010, 19:51
You will be watching a movie. Probably a cool, visually interesting, action-packed movie. Nothing terribly wrong with that; films like The Bourne Ultimatum, The Italian Job, Mission Impossible III, etc are fun and skillfully made (not trying to start a movie debate, just using examples). But those are movies. The audience doesn't believe they are Jason Bourne. They don't personally perform any of those stunts, or fight any of those assassins, or talk their way past a guard. They just sit back and observe.

So get ready to sit back and observe some really cool cutscenes.


And even when I agree with him, WildcatPhoenix still manages to sound like Dugas came and personally pissed in his Wheaties. I don't get it. Just because you don't like what's going on doesn't mean you have to present likely gross exaggerations as pure fact, something which you could not possibly know at this point.

Shralla, where exactly did I make a "gross exaggeration stated as pure fact"? I said, "Sit back and observe some really cool cutscenes."

Is it still up for debate that HR will have non-interactive, mid-mission cutscenes? I'm pretty sure that fact is academic at this point. Sure, it is theoretically possible that the scenes we've seen in demos, videos, and whatnot could be cut from the game. Just like it is theoretically possible they could take out regenerating health, 3rd person, Barrett, and any other element that has ticked people off.

Possible, yes. Likely? Not a chance.

Did Dugas come and personally piss in my Cornflakes? (I prefer those to Wheaties...actually, let's just stick with Cap'n Crunch) No. All he did was take a dump all over what I consider to be the greatest video game of all time. And so I'm complaining on an internet forum. I'm not mailing him letters laced with deadly spores or threatening his kids. Big deal.

Jerion
6th Sep 2010, 20:04
Did Dugas come and personally piss in my Cornflakes? (I prefer those to Wheaties...actually, let's just stick with Cap'n Crunch) No. All he did was take a dump all over what I consider to be the greatest video game of all time. And so I'm complaining on an internet forum. I'm not mailing him letters laced with deadly spores or threatening his kids. Big deal.

Take notes kids, this is how the internet works.

Donvermicelli
6th Sep 2010, 20:08
90%?!? No kidding!!
Still, I don't think DH:HR will be like this by any stretch of the imagination... or paranoia... or whatever we wanna call it. :D
Nowhere near saying that I expect such a thing from DX:HR just expressing that this is probably an exaggerated version of the concerns most people have regarding the increasing amount of footage displaying cut-scenes.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Sep 2010, 20:15
Take notes kids, this is how the internet works.
Absolutely. People should take care.


...just expressing that this is probably an exaggerated version of the concerns...

Isn't it just. Agreed.

IOOI
6th Sep 2010, 22:26
Did Dugas come and personally piss in my Cornflakes? (I prefer those to Wheaties...actually, let's just stick with Cap'n Crunch) No. All he did was take a dump all over what I consider to be the greatest video game of all time. And so I'm complaining on an internet forum. I'm not mailing him letters laced with deadly spores or threatening his kids. Big deal.

Take notes kids, this is how the internet works.

Someone's a Duke fan. ;)


Absolutely. People should take care.

Yes, Ms. Fairy Poppins. :D





J/K :p

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Sep 2010, 01:22
Yes, Ms. Fairy Poppins. :D


Hey, I'm darker than that.
Replace fairy with scary and you get the idea. I enjoy doing very nasty things with my umbrella, so be careful. :poke:

Pinky_Powers
7th Sep 2010, 13:39
I enjoy doing very nasty things with my umbrella, so be careful. :poke:

I'd like to know a good deal more about this.

AxiomaticBadger
7th Sep 2010, 15:05
Correct, but I class them under the same banner of sanctimonious garbage.Ah, ok. Misunderstood :)


You know what you are saying right?, because this is exactly what DeusEx was about. You were JC, had a history but YOU defined who he was and who he would become. You yourself defined this by his actions.And this doesn't change. What changes is that we have "Adam Jensen, Ex cop, Drinker, Smoker", instead of "JC Denton, No distinguishing features".


MI can hear the protests already. "Hey, these are just from the trailers! There's no evidence these will actually be in the game!" I disagree. I don't think Square Enix spent all that time developing a lot of those scenes just for them to appear in a brief trailer.Unless I've missed something they've explicitly stated that the Pre-Rendered stuff isn't going to be in the game. At least, that's what the FAQ says.

Donvermicelli
7th Sep 2010, 19:09
Ah, ok. Misunderstood :)

And this doesn't change. What changes is that we have "Adam Jensen, Ex cop, Drinker, Smoker", instead of "JC Denton, No distinguishing features".

Unless I've missed something they've explicitly stated that the Pre-Rendered stuff isn't going to be in the game. At least, that's what the FAQ says.

While in DX1 you could decide to become a drinker and get your distinguished feature, or become a drug addict for all I care. You gave him these features by being him, JC wasn't a character JC was in fact you the player.

Why do you have to be a smoker? why do you have to be a drinker? sure it can tender to the story but DX1 left even that open for you to decide, I bet I won't be able to blind laser triggered alarms with cigarette smoke in DX:HR dispite being a smoker and obviously having a package of cigarettes with you at all times.

But I guess the Industry has grown up beyond the point where story elements can work in your advantage, you will just sit back and see Adam do it for you.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
7th Sep 2010, 20:01
I'd like to know a good deal more about this.

I absolutely knew you would volunteer for this, Pinky. ;)

TrickyVein
7th Sep 2010, 20:09
^^ Whaaa? Where was I for this?

Pics or it didn't happen.

Pinky_Powers
7th Sep 2010, 20:18
I absolutely knew you would volunteer for this, Pinky. ;)

I'm reliably inquisitive on all things explicit. :o

WildcatPhoenix
7th Sep 2010, 21:02
But I guess the Industry has grown up beyond the point where story elements can work in your advantage, you will just sit back and see Adam do it for you.

Lol. Careful, Don, you may wind up getting lumped in with the "Grumpy Old Men" like Ashpolt, POM, and myself. ;)

JackShandy
9th Sep 2010, 11:57
You guys know these are trailers, right? As trailers, they're going to focus on the super-cool WOAW cutscene bits. That's the nature of things.They're hardly going to have a sequence where Adam spends several minutes sacking crates to access an alternate route into a building or something.

It's like how movies always have stupid puns as taglines, no matter what they're actually like inside.

Pretentious Old Man.
9th Sep 2010, 20:08
You guys know these are trailers, right? As trailers, they're going to focus on the super-cool WOAW cutscene bits. That's the nature of things.They're hardly going to have a sequence where Adam spends several minutes sacking crates to access an alternate route into a building or something.

It's like how movies always have stupid puns as taglines, no matter what they're actually like inside.

If you can give me one movie that had a stupid pun tagline that was good, I shall give you a cookie. I promise you won't, however.

FrankCSIS
9th Sep 2010, 23:09
As trailers, they're going to focus on the super-cool WOAW cutscene bits. That's the nature of things.

That' s just one way of doing it. An easy, tried tested and true way of doing it. If we're in it just for the sales aspect, you will find that easily-impressed public is actually swayed even more by the "deep ****" than they can ever be about yet another round of flash bangs to the face. As such, many trailers have been more efficient at gathering attention all the while describing the story than they were through any demonstration of force.

Speaking of of the trailers, I had a bit of a laugh this week-end. I was looking for some HD content to test a laptop screen, and went for the E3 trailer. My brother's attention was gathered by the prettiness of it all, and so naturally inquired about what it is I was looking at. About a minute and half in, he goes "What's this, a movie trailer?" After explaining it was a game, he asked if it was released yet. As the trailer goes on, he says "Ok but what's the game like? What is it about? This is just some never-ending animation going in all directions, it doesn't tell me anything!"

I thought it was quite telling, marketing-wise anyway. For I had someone entirely neutral on all Deus Ex topics, who didn't know this game was being made, who had an honnest to goodness reaction to a trailer he was presented. Again I say, there is something off with the promotion department.

AxiomaticBadger
10th Sep 2010, 16:45
Why do you have to be a smoker? why do you have to be a drinker? sure it can tender to the story......And you have your answer. The more definition a character has as a default the more material you have for the story.
Please note, I'm not claiming that this is necessarily better, just stating that it's a possibility.

Personally I don't really see that much of a difference between preesing a button for a takedown and pressing a button to make my character reload his weapon, or between having a cutscene and having a character run up to me to force me into a dialogue.
To be completely honest, if I play a game and it switches perspectives on me, I usually don't even notice.


That' s just one way of doing it. An easy, tried tested and true way of doing it.
Can you actually name a game that has a pre-rendered trailer that doesn't do this?
I can't.

lithos
10th Sep 2010, 16:57
...And you have your answer. The more definition a character has as a default the more material you have for the story.
Please note, I'm not claiming that this is necessarily better, just stating that it's a possibility.

Aye. It's definition, characterisation. At least he smokes cigarettes, not cigars.

I'd also imagine it's a nod to the noir genre upon which cyberpunk has its base, which was in, as William Gibson might say, "the golden age of smoking." The whiskey and the cigarette are classic noir devices.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
10th Sep 2010, 19:09
I'd also imagine it's a nod to the noir genre upon which cyberpunk has its base, which was in, as William Gibson might say, "the golden age of smoking." The whiskey and the cigarette are classic noir devices.

With you on this one. :thumb: