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Bono
2nd Sep 2010, 18:29
I've taken the interview with Jean-François Dugas for the site that I'm running, it's posted over here (http://gameslife.ru/interview/index_109646.html).

I suppose few of you can read in Russian, so here's the English translation. Actually, not the translation, but the original text that I was using when translating into Russian. Anyway.


GamesLife.ru: One of the reasons why the original Deus Ex was such a critically acclaimed game was the fact that it pictured the future just exactly as it should look some 50 years from now (well, as of 2010, already about 40 years from now). The future in Deus Ex looks like it's almost around the corner. On the contrary, Deus Ex: Human Revolution's 'Cyber-Renaissance' style doesn't at all look like it's the way the world is going to be 17 years from now. Deus Ex 3's world - at least judging from concept art and the trailer you have shown - looks more futuristic than the world in the original game. How can you explain this drastic difference in settings and moods?

Jean-François Dugas: In Deus Ex: Human Revolution, we built the world around what we know today and where technologies are at. We tried to anticipate how the world would evolve in 20 years from now. So, most of the things that you will see in the game already exist or are about to happen in the real world.

That being said, we took some liberties (i.e. double-decked city of Hengsha) to create something unique and spectacular - it's part, really, of an alternate reality.

The original game has been done over 10 years ago on technology that is as old. Their anticipation of the future was based on what they knew of back in the day - for us, it wouldn't have made much sense to try to maintain the visual fidelity of the first game because it wouldn't work (i.e. in Deus Ex 1 TV are all 4:3 ratio - nowadays, everything is 16:9).

You need to see it as a reinvention of the DX world.

GL: In one of the interviews DX:HR's Art Director Jonathan Jacques-Belletête stated that he wanted to give Deus Ex 3 some very obvious graphical representation, because he felt like the original game lacked a distinct visual style. But wasn't that absence of this visual style the reason why Deus Ex looked like a real life? Aren't you afraid of some possible negative reaction from the hardcore community who might say that Deus Ex: Human Revolution doesn't look like a real life and thus doesn't continue traditions of the first game?

Jean-François: No we aren't.

Our goal, early on, was to give this game a distinctive look that would be appealing, something that would make DX: Human Revolution special. And we worked with that in mind.

That being said, when you do something different, something new, there are always people who won't like it while others will think it's awesome and so far, the answer has been tremendously positive.

GL: What is the biggest difficulty in making a Deus Ex game? How does high pressure from the fans influence the development of the game?

Jean-François: The biggest challenge is to make sure that we can balance in an interesting way all the options in the game. Whether you play combat or stealth, it needs to fun, challenging and rewarding. It takes time, a lot of trials and errors until we find the sweet spot.

As for the fans, it's true they have sky-high expectations, but the biggest pressure comes from the dev team itself. We take this game seriously, we really want to create a worthy DX experience and we challenge ourselves on a daily basis.

GL: Have you taken some ideas from Deus Ex: Invisible War during the development of Human Revolution, or Ion Storm's sequel to the original game was completely ignored by the team?

Jean-François: When we started to work on Human Revolution and we played both games, DX1 and IW but our biggest reference definitely remained DX1.

GL: Warren Spector presented the second Deus Ex 3 teaser trailer at this year's GDC. Has he been involved in the development of the new game in any way? And what about some other makers of the original game aside from Sheldon Pacotti, who we know is working with you on DX3's storyline?

Jean-François: The involvement of the original team was very limited. The writer of the first two games, Sheldon Pacotti, is working with us as a story consultant. We also did get Warren Spector’s blessing for the game, which is great, and some Ion Storm employees offered us their advice at the beginning of the development process, but that is pretty much it.

GL: In Deus Ex 1 the levels were vast, and the player could complete objectives without even visiting some large areas in the game if he wanted. In Deus Ex 2, levels were smaller, and the basic non-linearity of the game came to the choice between the way one could enter a room. It was either by picking a lock to the main door, or through a vent shaft, or by talking to a guard, etc. How non-linearity of levels is organised in Deus Ex 3?

Jean-François: It depends of the context of the story and the places we visit. When we're in large city hubs (i.e. Detroit), you can explore all over the place and there are zones that you might never visit if you don't go beyond the critical path missions.

When Jensen needs to go behind enemy line, Jensen will visit locations that are smaller in size (i.e. Area 51 in DX1) albeit maintaining the multi-possibilities and secret areas alive but on a smaller scale.

So, our mission structure is somewhat linear and it opens up when it make sense but how the story of those missions plays out is totally up to your playing style.

GL: Could you tell us anything about the augmentations in Deus Ex: HR? How many of them will be in the game, and what will they be?

Jean-François: I can tell you that there will be a lot of augmentations and they will help you support the 4 gameplay pillars which are combat, stealth, hacking and social. The range of augmentations goes from the offensive 360 degrees claymore attack to the noise suppressor to support stealth.

There is a wide range of abilities to craft the Adam Jensen you want to play.

GL: The augmentations+experience system in DXHR looks more like a variant of DXIW system, rather than the skill system of the original game. How and why did you come to the conclusion that you should do it this way?

Jean-François: When we started the project, we had skills and augmentations. As the development moved forward, we knew that we wanted to make augmentations at the center stage of the experience. It's a game that explores transhumanism, after all. We thought that skills were too similar to augmentations so we combined them in the augmentation area. We didn't cut them, they're fully integrated in the fantasy of being augmented.

GL: One of the key aspects of Deus Ex stealth system has been the ability to hide in the shadows, like in the Thief series. Though JC Denton and Alex Denton have never been true masters of sneaking as opposed to Garrett, it has always been possible to keep away from the guards' sight somewhere in a dark corner. It seems that shadow-based stealth is now gone. Why did you decide to let shadows go?

Jean-François: Early on, we knew that we wanted the game to take place in lit environments, even at night time. So, we knew that the stealth system needed to be independent from the types of environments we wanted to create.

In the end, it remains a gameplay about breaking the line of sight and sound propagation. So, honestly, it doesn't feel that much different from the first game once you play it.

GL: Deus Ex: HR is heavily relying on third person camera. Attacking people, hiding behind covers, even climbing ladders - everything is done in third person. The constant switches between first person and third person do definitely break immersion to a degree. Don't you think you're trying to fix something that's not broken?

Jean-François: We knew early on that we wanted to see the main character more often on screen, to see the more physical augmentations in action and give a more "cinematic" feel to the experience. Those moments in 3rd person allow us to do just that. We're not pretending this is the only way to achieve that but it felt right to us.

We believe that immersion is created by the consistency and the attention to details of the world you create, it goes beyond camera choices.

GL: Regenerating health has been the most criticized aspect of your game among the fans. Won't regenerating health kill the tension in fights in Deus Ex: HR, because the player will always be able to crawl away from the opponent and regenerate?

Jean-François: We're balancing the game right now and, trust me, auto-regen won't remove your fear of dying. The combat aspect of Human Revolution is not about "run & shoot". You need to plan carefully how you want to tackle the challenges ahead otherwise you might end up dead.

When you take damage, your health doesn't replenish right away - it takes some time. And you're more vulnerable. You might want to hide but it's not necessarily going to be easy because enemies won't rest waiting for you to feel better!

For us, it was important to encourage players to stay as much as possible in the battlefield. You're hurt, take cover, try to outsmart the enemies closing on you to survive.

GL: Are you planning to release DLC for Deus Ex: HR? If yes, what will it look like - say, it will be some additional missions, or augmentations, or something? Will these DLC be exclusive to any platforms?

Jean-François: No comments so far.

GL: What will be the differences between the versions of the game for different platforms?

Jean-François: We see Deus Ex: Human Revolution as one game that we want to be great. No matter what platform we'll support.

Of course, controls, etc., will be different on the PC version but the game experience should be the same everywhere.

GL: Are you planning to release modding tools for the community?

Jean-François: We have not decided yet if we will implement modding tools. It’s hard to say at this time, since it’s quite complex from a technology standpoint. At this point, there is no plan for that.

---

That's it. Well, at least they had a vision "early on".

Edit: Sorry, it was messed up, but I fixed it.

Absentia
2nd Sep 2010, 19:01
Good effort. You asked some really hard-hitting questions where more mainstream media seems to hold back a little. Shame that his answers werent too satisfying. Of the more enlightening things that were said, it's kinda annoying to know that they actually started with both skills and augmentations, though. The DX1 devs actualyl regretted implementing the stats into augmentations in Invisible War, because it eliminates a further sense of freedom that the player had (their example was because even though a swimming aug in IW would do the same thing as having both an aug + full skills in DX1, you have less of the sense that you put all your effort into being 'the aqua guy'.)
Also, if i read about goddamn widescreen vs. square ratio on TV screens as an excuse for DXHR's Phantom Menace style canon-breaking, I'll......

Irate_Iguana
2nd Sep 2010, 19:05
I've taken the interview with Jean-François Dugas for the site that I'm running, it's posted over here (http://gameslife.ru/interview/index_109646.html).

I suppose few of you can read in Russian, so here's the English translation. Actually, not the translation, but the original text that I was using when translating into Russian. Anyway.

Thanks a lot for the interview, Bono. I can't speak Russian, so I appreciate the translation.

I get the distinct impression from reading this interview that you really wanted to ask what was behind things and see if you could get an answer for the hardcore fans. At the same time Dugas really wanted to give a standard interview with the standard answers. Most of his replies are exactly the same as in the other interviews he has given.

Shinrei
2nd Sep 2010, 19:10
Thanks Bono for your translation...can't speak russian either. It's a good read with some very good questions, altough most of the answers we already heard before. Hopefully EM will get DX:HR to be a worthy representation of our beloved DX1. We'll see! Thanks again mate for you affords! :)

AxiomaticBadger
2nd Sep 2010, 19:36
Seem's I'm the only person on this board who actually agrees with his views on immersion. Pity.

Esnuk
2nd Sep 2010, 19:41
Jean-François: We knew early on that we wanted to see the main character more often on screen, to see the more physical augmentations in action and give a more "cinematic" feel to the experience. Those moments in 3rd person allow us to do just that. We're not pretending this is the only way to achieve that but it felt right to us.

Simply fantastic!

The problem of the original Deus Ex was to have a limited experience at 360 of the protagonist: starting with the fact that players could see him exclusively when talking to someone. Now, with Deus Ex: Human Revolution and the revolutionary third-person view, players can enjoy a fuller experience, being able to empathize with their hero in all its aspects.

Red
2nd Sep 2010, 19:41
This person is an impostor. Not once has he used word "cool" therefore he's not the real Dugas. It's a conspiracy! Someone kidnapped him! (Yet shame that the clone is still spewing same erm...stuff... time and again as in all interviews).

Great effort, Bono.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Sep 2010, 20:18
Seem's I'm the only person on this board who actually agrees with his views on immersion. Pity.
You're not alone, don't worry. :cool:

WildcatPhoenix
2nd Sep 2010, 20:24
Bono, I commend you for actually asking critical questions. Very well done (sad, when we have to commend someone for doing what the gaming press should be doing all along!)

A year ago this interview would've enraged me. Now, I'm simply numb to Dugas's nonsense about 4:3 aspect ratios and "positive" reactions to 3rd person and health regen. Just absolutely tragic. :hmm:

Blackbird SR-71C
2nd Sep 2010, 20:26
I'll wait and see about the third-person-thing in the future. What they're trying to accomplish with the third-person segments is two things: Complement the action a bit and showing the difference physical augmentations make. I think that they mostly succeeded with the former. You won't go into third person when prefferring a assault approach all that much aside from being in cover, when you're either wounded or ducking because of crossfire, which doesn't sound all that bad. What would you see in first person? A wall/box, whatever you use as cover. In stealth approaches it does actually reward the players. You'll be sneaking around most of the time, now you get to see some bad*ss action too, even when you're only knocking out a guard.
Also, say you're making a full-augmented run. In the end you're most likely going to look like a terminator. I prefer seeing my cyborg-character outside of dialogue as well.

Irate_Iguana
2nd Sep 2010, 20:29
You'll be sneaking around most of the time, now you get to see some bad*ss action too, even when you're only knocking out a guard.

This might be hard to believe, but most people who really love sneaking around aren't exactly looking for badass action.

WildcatPhoenix
2nd Sep 2010, 20:30
I'll wait and see about the third-person-thing in the future. What they're trying to accomplish with the third-person segments is two things: Complement the action a bit and showing the difference physical augmentations make. I think that they mostly succeeded with the former. You won't go into third person when prefferring a assault approach all that much aside from being in cover, when you're either wounded or ducking because of crossfire, which doesn't sound all that bad. What would you see in first person? A wall/box, whatever you use as cover. In stealth approaches it does actually reward the players. You'll be sneaking around most of the time, now you get to see some bad*ss action too, even when you're only knocking out a guard.
Also, say you're making a full-augmented run. In the end you're most likely going to look like a terminator. I prefer seeing my cyborg-character outside of dialogue as well.

I get so tired of this argument. Okay, in real life, when you're ducking behind a box, what can you see? The f-ing box! In front of your face! If you want to peek around the corner to see if someone is coming, you have to risk exposing your noggin' to bullets! That's the risk. Break cover = maybe get shot in the face! This is realism, this is immersion, this is tension vs. "magic see around the corner cam."

Ugh.

Why, also, do we need to see how visually "cool" Adam looks while climbing a damn ladder? Or standing against a wall?

Ashpolt
2nd Sep 2010, 20:37
Great interview Bono, thanks! Much better than the same old nonsense that IGN and such sites are asking - even if, as mentioned, Dugas does do his level best to give the same stock answers, almost regardless of the questions.


Doesn't sound like there will be any option for players to turn off all this first to third person camera switching. :hmm: Again, here we go with wanting a game to look cinematic. The more interviews with modern game developers I read, the more apparent it becomes that they want to be in the movie industry, not the gaming industry. They just don't get it.

Yeah, I wish more developers understood that games are not movies, and should not be approached as such. Warren Spector is one of the few developers who truly understands this, and it's one of the reasons I respect him so much.

Finally,


We believe that immersion is created by the consistency and the attention to details of the world you create, it goes beyond camera choices.

>We believe that immersion is created by the consistency and the attention to details

>immersion is created by the consistency

>Switching between 2 viewpoints constantly instead of keeping one is consistent apparently

>LEL

Cronstintein
2nd Sep 2010, 20:49
Definitely the hardest hitting questions I've seen in an interview so far, good job mate!

Bono
2nd Sep 2010, 21:08
I get the distinct impression from reading this interview that you really wanted to ask what was behind things and see if you could get an answer for the hardcore fans. At the same time Dugas really wanted to give a standard interview with the standard answers. Most of his replies are exactly the same as in the other interviews he has given.

Yeah, that's pretty much what it is. As a result, I don't think the end result (I mean the interview) is above average, since almost all of the answers are like "early on we decided...", I really had hoped the anwers would have been more interesting.

Dead-Eye
2nd Sep 2010, 21:11
I'm not feeling vary enthusiastic about this game anymore...

I'm starting to feel that the team just doesn't have what it takes to make a great Deus Ex game. Oh well, wait and see.

sonicsidewinder
2nd Sep 2010, 21:33
ack. no mod tools.

Restricted and restrained. What a shame.

WildcatPhoenix
2nd Sep 2010, 21:39
Yeah, that's pretty much what it is. As a result, I don't think the end result (I mean the interview) is above average, since almost all of the answers are like "early on we decided...", I really had hoped the anwers would have been more interesting.

You did better than 99% of anyone else out there. Dugas is an expert at giving the same vanilla, PR-friendly bullsh.it answers anyway.

nexusdx
2nd Sep 2010, 21:46
ack. no mod tools.

Yes but we will getting thousand of DLC's unique weapons and other **** for 9,99$.

THANKS EM, YOU FAILED ONCE AGAIN :thud:

WildcatPhoenix
2nd Sep 2010, 22:04
ack. no mod tools.

Restricted and restrained. What a shame.

Mod tools are my absolute last hope for this game. Make those available and I will buy HR, day one. Just thinking about what the mod community could do with these graphics makes me drooooool...

...although those faint hopes are all but confirmed to be crushed after this interview. No surprises there. :hmm:

luminar
2nd Sep 2010, 22:19
I get so tired of this argument. Okay, in real life, when you're ducking behind a box, what can you see? The f-ing box! In front of your face! If you want to peek around the corner to see if someone is coming, you have to risk exposing your noggin' to bullets! That's the risk. Break cover = maybe get shot in the face! This is realism, this is immersion, this is tension vs. "magic see around the corner cam."

Ugh.

Why, also, do we need to see how visually "cool" Adam looks while climbing a damn ladder? Or standing against a wall?

This is the experience I want in a game! If I want to look at my character give me an augmentations MENU where I can look indepth at my augmentations and read about them and understand them and love them and give it my all! No I don't have an augmentations fetish! Don't look at me! AHHHHHH! (Crys for hours.)

Gordon_Shea
2nd Sep 2010, 22:32
GL: In one of the interviews DX:HR's Art Director Jonathan Jacques-Belletête stated that he wanted to give Deus Ex 3 some very obvious graphical representation, because he felt like the original game lacked a distinct visual style. But wasn't that absence of this visual style the reason why Deus Ex looked like a real life? Aren't you afraid of some possible negative reaction from the hardcore community who might say that Deus Ex: Human Revolution doesn't look like a real life and thus doesn't continue traditions of the first game?

Jean-François: No we aren't.
And that's basically all there is to say about it.

Honestly though he's right. Deus Ex was ugly as nine kinds of **** being used to fingerpaint pictures of fat people and mimicking that in order to please a very small portion of the audience makes no sense.


>Switching between 2 viewpoints constantly instead of keeping one is consistent apparently

>LEL

Huh. Greentext. Shouldn't you be back on /v/ circa 2008?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
2nd Sep 2010, 22:35
Regarding mod tools, he didn't reply with an outright "No", did he?
From what I understand, he's saying they are undecided/haven't yet made plans at this point in time.

luminar
2nd Sep 2010, 22:45
And that's basically all there is to say about it.

Honestly though he's right. Deus Ex was ugly as nine kinds of **** being used to fingerpaint pictures of fat people and mimicking that in order to please a very small portion of the audience makes no sense.



Huh. Greentext. Shouldn't you be back on /v/ circa 2008?

I disagree deus ex had less polygons but it's not ugly. Ok green text did catch me off guard but still, its not that big of a deal. Is it?

Ashpolt
2nd Sep 2010, 23:19
Huh. Greentext. Shouldn't you be back on /v/ circa 2008?

Sometimes there's just no better way to make a point. This was one of those times.

Gordon_Shea
2nd Sep 2010, 23:25
Sometimes there's just no better way to make a point. This was one of those times.
There's always a better way to make a point. Greentext doesn't even make sense to use on a board like this because it started as an image board equivalent of editing BBCode quotes.

And anyway, consistency can mean all kinds of stuff. Like continuity, or consistent characterization, both of which Deus Ex struggled with. Or it can mean consistency about the conditions under which different augs or tactics will work, or consistency between how Adam and his powers work in parts where the player had control and parts where the player doesn't.


I disagree deus ex had less polygons but it's not ugly. Ok green text did catch me off guard but still, its not that big of a deal. Is it?

It is basically really ugly. Everything is a box and the textures are so bad that you can't see how futuristic the people in your environment are supposed to look. It's not just about polygons, but I've had this argument before and I'm kinda tired of going over the same points over and over.

Pinky_Powers
3rd Sep 2010, 00:36
Consistently changing perspective for a set list of actions is consistency.

Instead of these switches growing more annoying the more you use them, I imagine you'll actually grow used to them... probably even comfortable with them; to some extent.

I agree they should have kept it 1st person. But there is a consistency to what they're doing, and it shouldn't break immersion if it's all refined and of top quality.

mad825
3rd Sep 2010, 01:09
Regarding mod tools, he didn't reply with an outright "No", did he?
From what I understand, he's saying they are undecided/haven't yet made plans at this point in time.

might as well rule it out.

there are other things that they "might" do and that is to make the game stereoscopic compatible and believe me when I say this, stereography is going to have the higher priority which may just be enough to for them to say no on modding support :mad2:

Isterio
3rd Sep 2010, 03:23
Nicely done, Bono!

You seemed to have taken the concerns in this forum in consideration and based your question on a more like "fan-based" view. Like this you prove more guts, than the rest of the news industry with their uncritical questions. That he didn't give you any interesting answers, isn't your fault. "There are no bad questions, only bad answers."

Dugas says: "The management has made decisions about what sells in the beginning and we won't change from our course. Actually, all the fans are happy and their reaction is VERY positive.". It's probably an altered speach from Kim Yong Il (just kidding).

Still they don't give any details/facts. Maybe soon they delay the game for one more year? Hmm ... who knows.

Anasumtj
3rd Sep 2010, 03:23
revolutionary third-person view

Do I need to pull out the Joker pic again?

Really?

lithos
3rd Sep 2010, 03:44
When I rule the world, people who use the term "cinematic" in relation to games design will be shot.

No last kiss, last cigarette, no trial, no blindfold. Just the name and address of their next-of-kin so that I may bill them for the bullet.

beastrn
3rd Sep 2010, 04:09
And I'll vote for you!

I honestly never thought I would ever be considering not buying a Deus Ex game. Just, yeah. No amount of PR dodging and spinning is going to fool me into having any hope for HR at this point.

And trust me, I want to be fooled.

lithos
3rd Sep 2010, 05:17
*Scratched, grainy black-and-white footage of a morbidly obese man with acne and a neckbeard standing in front of the Hollywood sign, in knee-length denim shorts, a Bubblegum Crisis t-shirt (faded, stained, extra-extra-extra large - so two size too small,) and pseudo-military (pseudo, because no military in the world has to issue jackets that big,) jacket with dog-eared Marvel comics and manga spilling out of the pockets*

Old timey, treble-heavy voiceover: "Having trouble cutting it in Hollywood?"

*Fat nerd frowns, nods*

VO: "Did Michael Bay call your script 'immature' and 'full of retarded, pubescent machismo and emotionally dull characters'?"

*Cut to Michael Bay reading script, laughing uncontrollably*

*Fat nerd frowns, nods*

VO: "Did Larry Wachowski call you a weirdo while you tried to give him your script while he was shopping for a handbag that would match his skirt?"

*Nerd nods*

*Cut to effete, goatee'd guy in ironic glasses with lenses that don't actually refract any light, wearing an ironic t-shirt, with ironic skinny jeans and ironic Converse sneakers, flicking through Wired.com on a Macbook in a New York Starbucks*

VO: "Want to put that untapped genius of yours to work? Sick of wasting time in the Apple Store, selling hip products to the undeserving?"

*Effete guy nods*

VO: "Still waiting for a passing publisher to notice you writing your novel in the coffee shop? Has Wired Magazine just informed you that video games are now cool? Never played on in your life?"

*Effete guy nods*

VO: "Then you both should join the games industry!"

*Nerd, hipster both look surprised*

VO: "That's right! You there-"

*Nerd looks into camera*

VO: "-can indulge all your retarded, juvenile fantasies and train-wreck movie ideas! Sick of trying to find a woman with bigger breasts than your own? Create one - with the magic of computers! Tired of getting puffed climbing the three steps to the Warhammer store? Project yourself onto a digital male power fantasy! You won't magically turn Japanese, but you'll be close!"

VO: "And you-"

*Hipster looks into camera*

VO: "-you'll finally be worshipped as the techno-god you've been selling yourself as on your Facebook page, even though you had to take your Macbook to the Genius Bar to learn how to eject a DVD! Now that 'working with computers' is cool, you finally put your skills in Garage Band and Illustrator to use! It'll be just like Douglas Coupland's Jpod! And I guarantee no one will ask you 'are you being ironic?' unironically when they read your manuscripts!"

*Nerd's, hipster's faces become painfully gleeful*

VO: "Yes, hop on a plane and move to Canada's rich gaming provinces! Where the world's unappreciated creative refugees end up! There are many there, waiting for you, and your ideas! And, you'll never have to worry about a lethal vitamin D overdose again!"

*Cut to nerd, hipster skipping down the streets of Montréal*

*Newsreel ends, to the sound of celluloid flicking through the reel*

beastrn
3rd Sep 2010, 05:23
http://www.fsu.edu/~crimdo/images/clapping.GIF

pha
3rd Sep 2010, 06:05
Thanks for the interview and the translation Bono.

There were many bold questions mainstream guys would never ask, pity Dugas didn't give satisfying answers to them. And it's real shame they had been considering a separate skill system but scrapped it.


Sometimes there's just no better way to make a point. This was one of those times.

You can always use the .gif jargon.

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/5611/wtf1.gif

rokstrombo
3rd Sep 2010, 06:42
VO: "That's right! You there-"

*Nerd looks into camera*

VO: "-can indulge all your retarded, juvenile fantasies and train-wreck movie ideas! Sick of trying to find a woman with bigger breasts than your own? Create one - with the magic of computers! Tired of getting puffed climbing the three steps to the Warhammer store? Project yourself onto a digital male power fantasy! You won't magically turn Japanese, but you'll be close!"

Very nice! :lol:

Irate_Iguana
3rd Sep 2010, 07:45
<snip>

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif

avenging_teabag
3rd Sep 2010, 09:00
Seem's I'm the only person on this board who actually agrees with his views on immersion. Pity.

No you're not. This quote:

We believe that immersion is created by the consistency and the attention to details of the world you create, it goes beyond camera choices.
Is plain, naked truth.

xAcerbusx
3rd Sep 2010, 09:24
We believe that immersion is created by the consistency and the attention to details of the world you create, it goes beyond camera choices.


Couldn't have put it better myself.

Too much drama about first-person and third-person. If the story and world are consistent and immersive, then the game will be immersive. Period.

I want to buy this guy a drink. I hope the Thief 4 team is operating under the same philosophy.

Bono
3rd Sep 2010, 09:31
Couldn't have put it better myself.

Too much drama about first-person and third-person. If the story and world are consistent and immersive, then the game will be immersive. Period.

I want to buy this guy a drink. I hope the Thief 4 team is operating under the same philosophy.

Let me guess, you played Thief DS in third person and you thought it was a cool Splinter Cell ripoff.

Fallout 1 & 2's story and world were consistent and immersive. However, they were isometric games. An isometric game will never be as immersive as a first person game. An immersive simulator, as coined by Warren Spector, is a first person RPG game with balls.

lithos
3rd Sep 2010, 10:20
(Spasiba for the interview, Bono.)

beastrn
3rd Sep 2010, 10:23
Third Person forgivers just don't get it. Trying to explain immersion to them is pointless, as their only point of reference is Fallout 3 and Oblivion.

lithos
3rd Sep 2010, 10:27
It's no so bad if it was one or the other. Not flip-flopping like a freshly-landed barra on the bottom of the boat.

I don't know if anyone realises how much of a bloody contradiction in terms the phrase "cinematic gameplay" is.

Like having "sculptural poetry." Or a "musical painting."

xAcerbusx
3rd Sep 2010, 10:34
Let me guess, you played Thief DS in third person and you thought it was a cool Splinter Cell ripoff.

I played The Dark Project in 1999. I played Thief II on release day. It's my favorite game of all time.

I've drawn two fan comic books set in the time between Thief 1 and Thief 2. Needless to say... I'm dedicated to those games.

I welcomed third-person in Deadly Shadows because I'm not a knee-jerk elitist. Thief's world is immersive because it is dense with detail and rich with history. It's immersive because its sound design, lighting, and the implementation of that stellar audio design is completely unique.

Third-person in no way precludes that, in the same way that films - told entirely in third-person with a camera lens - can be nevertheless completely immersive.. As evidenced by Deadly Shadows having essentially the same average score as Thief 1 and 2 on metacritic.

Nyysjan
3rd Sep 2010, 10:40
Is this guy trying to make people not buy the game?
I'm still probably going to end up buying it asap, but more i listen or read this dudes interviews, the less certain i become about it being good, or even decent game, i'd comfort mayself saying that by buying it i'll increase the odds of more DX games being done, but if things keep going in the same direction they are, the less like DX the games will be.

I'd vote with my valet and go buy something more like DX, but there is nothing like DX out there, and the DX prequel seems to be trying to get as far away from it as fast as it can.

Bono
3rd Sep 2010, 11:26
I welcomed third-person in Deadly Shadows because I'm not a knee-jerk elitist. Thief's world is immersive because it is dense with detail and rich with history. It's immersive because its sound design, lighting, and the implementation of that stellar audio design is completely unique.

Cool. I can't speak for you, but for me first person and third person are two different games. Try to play 5 minutes in first person, than switch to the third person and play 5 minutes more. The experience would be drastically different. In the first case, you are absorbed by the game, immersed in the world. In the second case, you would be controlling a guy in a hood trying not to get stuck in some polygons.

Sotsiak
3rd Sep 2010, 12:08
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/980/ycx40k1283517013.jpg

Ashpolt
3rd Sep 2010, 12:14
There's always a better way to make a point. Greentext doesn't even make sense to use on a board like this because it started as an image board equivalent of editing BBCode quotes.

It was a point made to highlight how ridiculous his statement was. Thus, making it in a ridiculous manner is the way I chose to go about it. Don't like it? Then....actually, I don't care if you don't like it. Tough.


And anyway, consistency can mean all kinds of stuff. Like continuity, or consistent characterization, both of which Deus Ex struggled with. Or it can mean consistency about the conditions under which different augs or tactics will work, or consistency between how Adam and his powers work in parts where the player had control and parts where the player doesn't.

Maybe so, but being consistent in other areas doesn't stop it being inconsistent in this one. A wrong is still a wrong, even in the presence of other rights. "You car has no wheels!" "No, but it's got an amazing stereo!"


Consistently changing perspective for a set list of actions is consistency.

Only if we devalue the meaning of consistency to be worthless. By that definition, literally anything can be defined as consistent: "This light flashes between 10 different colours in random orders: but it never seems to do the same order twice, so it's consistent in that regard!"


You can always use the .gif jargon.

I wish WHF was still here. :(

And @Litho: Bravo sir. Bravo.

lithos
3rd Sep 2010, 12:27
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/980/ycx40k1283517013.jpg

Tell me that's not a screencap from one of the HR videos...

Ashpolt
3rd Sep 2010, 13:28
Tell me that's not a screencap from one of the HR videos...

I've got bad news for you...

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Sep 2010, 13:42
@lithos- Brilliant, comrade, just brilliant! :lmao:

I don't think you can logically defend 3rd person as an equally immersive experience. I mean, it doesn't even make semantic sense. First person implies that the speaker is involved in the action. The dialogue/action/narrative is coming from the perspective of the speaker. Third person implies that we are witnessing action through the eyes of someone indirectly involved; not even the recipient of the action (i.e.- the guard getting stabbed, or Tong talking to Adam, etc), but rather a bystander.

Games are not "telling" a story. They are letting the player "live" the story. Ask anyone what the story of Deus Ex is, and while the main plot points will be the same, the player's perspective will vary:

1. JC Denton is this badass cyborg supersoldier with superspeed and superstrength. He wages war against a conspiracy and finally blows up Area 51 to defeat it.

2. JC Denton is a ninja assassin who can use augmentations to turn invisible. He uncovers a massive conspiracy running the UN, and eventually joins the Illuminati in their plot to rule the world.

3. JC Denton is a police officer and starts off as a cop trying to keep the world from collapsing. Eventually, he merges with a super-intelligent AI program to govern the world.

And so on.

The player tells the story, not the developers. They put all the tools in place (this gave rise to the term "sandbox"), and while I dislike most true sandbox games like GTA, the idea of an open world, full of options, dynamic responses to unique player choices, unscripted combinations of storytelling elements, is the FUTURE of gaming. This is where Deus Ex should be going, not devolving into more low-grade action movie tripe.

TrickyVein
3rd Sep 2010, 14:02
^^ Not all games need be sandbox, and I'm sure that's not what you meant. The TR series provide most excellent entertainment while essentially functioning as interactive cinema. You still play the game as Lara - assuming her role - but don't have the any real breadth of player choice - and it works out most excellently.

Pinky_Powers
3rd Sep 2010, 14:41
Only if we devalue the meaning of consistency to be worthless. By that definition, literally anything can be defined as consistent: "This light flashes between 10 different colours in random orders: but it never seems to do the same order twice, so it's consistent in that regard!"

You're actually trying to damage your established credibility now, aren't you?

Your analogy is utterly bogus and petulant. In your scenario, the third-person switch would happen randomly and could not be predicted. This is not only an immature exaggeration, but boarding on a lie. The only leeway I give you there, is that I suppose you cannot predict when a cutscene is to play. But there is no random cycle to the third person perspective. It's not going to suddenly happen once when you press the jump key.

To use your own analogy, but far more accurately: This consistency is like that of a bright red light that flashes every time you lean against a wall, touch a ladder, or use one of your many tools in your Swiss Army Knife. It is wholly consistent... not vaguely consistent.

Ashpolt
3rd Sep 2010, 15:22
Pinky, you should know by now that I use exaggeration to make a point pretty much all of the time! I'm surprised you'd expect otherwise. Using "to scale" examples is so boring! My point is valid though: it's not the exact same type of "consistency" that's present in DXHR, but in my example, the light has a level of consistency that can be said to apply to its basic inconsistency, the same as in your DXHR example. Yes, it's to a different degree, but it's the same basic point.

I got your point, but it's still inconsistent: it's just consistent in its inconsistency. If you're desperately trying to defend the game, yes, you can say that there is consistency here on one level: but to call the perspective consistent in itself would, as I said above, be devaluing the word "consistent." At best you're making an incredibly weak argument, at worst you sound like you're clutching at straws.

Putting aside all discussion of meta-consistency, let's ask the simple question: is the relationship between the player and the character consistent in DXHR? Answer: No, it is not. Argue about the consistency of that inconsistency all you like, but at the base level, the relationship between the player and the character - and, in turn, the world the character inhabits - is not consistent.

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Sep 2010, 15:32
Putting aside all discussion of meta-consistency, let's ask the simple question: is the relationship between the player and the character consistent in DXHR? Answer: No, it is not. Argue about the consistency of that inconsistency all you like, but at the base level, the relationship between the player and the character - and, in turn, the world the character inhabits - is not consistent.

Precisely. The relationship between the player and the character. In 1st person, the player is the character. In 3rd person, as described in statements from the developers, the player is watching the character perform an action. Not the same thing.

Bono
3rd Sep 2010, 15:33
Speaking about camera and immersion, I'm quite positive that if Dead Space was a first person game, it would've been the best horror thing since System Shock 2. It's great game nevertheless, but having to stare at your protagonist's ass doesn't necessarilly improve the game's atmosphere.

Bono
3rd Sep 2010, 15:36
PreciselyIn 1st person, the player is character.

This is definitely true. However, what is amazing, when I played Thief, I never forgot even for a moment that I was Garrett, not myself. Garrett's soul kind of lived in my mind at the time. But when it's first person, you and the character, no matter how different, are "merged" into one being. In third person, it is always two different persons, one controls another.

TrickyVein
3rd Sep 2010, 15:37
^ Well, on that note, I sure don't mind popping in a CD to play Tomb Raider...

Ever notice (well duh) how hunched over Isaak is?

Pinky_Powers
3rd Sep 2010, 15:39
Using "to scale" examples is so boring!

Jesus! I can't fault you for that. I exaggerate like a mofo myself. But only when it serves my side of the argument. :D

And no, it's not the perspective that's consistent, it's the game that's consistent. And not consistent, as you say, in it's inconsistency, but in the perspective switch.
If you really want to get stupid with it: the inconsistency of the perspective is consistent throughout the whole game, keeping Human Revolution consistent.

But even that's not a very true statement. The reality is that the third-person switch takes place in consistent and predictable times. And all such times are unfortunate.

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Sep 2010, 15:43
But even that's not a very true statement. The reality is that the third-person switch takes place in consistent and predictable times. And all such times are unfortunate.

Ha! This is brilliance. Allow me to play Jimmy Carter to your Sadat/Begin: we will agree that the perspective switch is consistently inconsistent.

Or better, it is consistently awful. Now everybody hug. :group_hug:

Pinky_Powers
3rd Sep 2010, 15:45
Or better, it is consistently awful. Now everybody hug. :group_hug:

I can abide that. :flowers:

bryt
3rd Sep 2010, 16:34
Seem's I'm the only person on this board who actually agrees with his views on immersion. Pity.

Another vote of support.... you are definitely not alone.

lithos
3rd Sep 2010, 17:20
I've got bad news for you...

I just died a bit inside.

Bet he talks like a racial stereotype (including uttering, at least once "Yo ass is mine!")

Pretentious Old Man.
3rd Sep 2010, 17:24
I just died a bit inside.

Bet he talks like a racial stereotype (including uttering, at least once "Yo ass is mine!")

Actually, he has what appears to be a somewhat posh London accent. Which is good.

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Sep 2010, 18:01
Actually, he has what appears to be a somewhat posh London accent. Which is good.

Indeed, it's more Sol from Snatch than Samuel L. Jackson.

lithos
3rd Sep 2010, 18:17
That's nowhere near as bad, but I just hope there's more "professional" in the characters that "cool."

Pretentious Old Man.
3rd Sep 2010, 18:28
That's nowhere near as bad, but I just hope there's more "professional" in the characters that "cool."

Have you heard Barrett, though?

"Well lookie here, we got ourselves a boy scout! You done real good, Jensen!"

/cringe.

pringlepower
3rd Sep 2010, 18:30
That's nowhere near as bad, but I just hope there's more "professional" in the characters that "cool."

A Black Englishman in Shanghai? This conspiracy be international!

WildcatPhoenix
3rd Sep 2010, 18:38
That's nowhere near as bad, but I just hope there's more "professional" in the characters that "cool."

I think The Brave Little Toaster is more a product of Belletete going overboard with the cyber-Renaissance theme than any attempt to be "cool."

Barrett, on the other hand, looks to be the absolute Hollywood action movie cliche. I hope like hell they at least give him some Gunther-esque back story, otherwise he could turn out to be the Jar Jar of the Deus Ex series. :mad2:

RandomJunkie
3rd Sep 2010, 21:20
I'm impressed how people can have so much hate about an unreleased game.

DeusWhatever
3rd Sep 2010, 21:40
I'm impressed how people can have so much hate about an unreleased game.

Trying to get some of that hate? :flowers:

RandomJunkie
3rd Sep 2010, 21:53
I'm just happy that we're going to get a cyberpunk video game instead of another fantasy rpg game. And from what I've seen from the new Deus Ex, it will satisfy my needs. I'm a huge fan of the original game but I never expected Human Revolution to copy everything from the first one. I really don't care about first or third person view, they can be as immersive IF done properly. I get sucked in any BioWare games, and the beginning of Half-Life 1 was probably my favorite video game moment.

I'm sure the " OMG JC A BOMB ! A BOMB " moment, if it hadn't happened in the first game and had been included in HR trailer (if if if if), it would have been described by horrible voice acting and that they should hire better actors and omg stupid dialogue. Deus Ex was a great game but it wasn't the second coming of Christ and it had it's flaws.

xAcerbusx
3rd Sep 2010, 21:58
I'm just happy that we're going to get a cyberpunk video game instead of another fantasy rpg game.

...or a first-person shooter set in an 'alternate timeline' after a nuclear holocaust... with a big wasteland where civilization used to be (see also: Fallout 3, Metro 2033, Borderlands, Rage... and every other game to be released in the last three years!)

I welcome third-person, if for no other reason than that first-person is so overused, at this point. The original Deus Ex hit the market before there was a Call of Duty or Halo game cranked out every five months. I've always felt the only thing lacking from the first two games was the ability to switch perspectives.

RandomJunkie
3rd Sep 2010, 22:11
Exactly. The video game industry is not big into Cyberpunk, because it's not as popular as it was back in the 80s. Now it's all Fantasy or Post-Nuclear, or 20-21th century warzones. As long as this developer manages to make something good, I'll be happy.

FrankCSIS
4th Sep 2010, 02:06
There IS more to immersion than camera perspectives. There is also a lot more to immersion than consitency, or the very vague statement of "rich world" and "details".

Immersion and interractivity are a science, which can be calculated, designed and tailored, not only through the story and the world it is set in, but built hand in hand with the mechanics and physics of it all. One day I should write a really long crash course on the topic, one that of course no one will read :p

AxiomaticBadger
6th Sep 2010, 16:32
Listening to your partner chat about orange soda. Watching a co-worker hit on a girl. Meeting up with your pilot in the bar. Stopping a pimp from bothering a girl. Reading an email to your brother from a lady-friend, setting a time to hook up. Bums singing the anthem in the park. A man with a sick wife.
The thousand little details that make a game a world, and not just a scenario to run through.
This is immersion. To me, at least.

Is seeing yourself climbing a ladder in third person that much worse than seeing your limbs vanish and levitating?

Shralla
6th Sep 2010, 18:48
Borderlands...post-apocalyptic

No. You obviously didn't even play the game, and judging by that, you likely haven't played the others you're complaining about either.

xAcerbusx
6th Sep 2010, 21:36
No. You obviously didn't even play the game, and judging by that, you likely haven't played the others you're complaining about either.

You're assuming an awful lot. I own the game.
I have a level 34 Siren.

It isn't 'post-apocalyptic' in the strictest sense... but it takes place in a similar setting to Fallout and the like, which is why it was mentioned. ("Oh, look. A big brown desert with random machinery and shacks dotted everywhere... haven't seen that before. But hey, at least it has this really predictable story to keep me entertained.")

Shralla
7th Sep 2010, 03:21
It's more Firefly than Fallout, that's my point.