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Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 20:34
Oh, hi.

My name is Kyle Stallock. I'm very happy to announce I'm the new community manager at Eidos Montreal.

I never thought I'd be here in Montreal working with two of the most acclaimed videogame properties (hopefully two turns to three, and maybe more, in the future). I adored videogames while growing up in the tiny little village of Lake Bronson, MN (population of roughly 250!), and idolized those working in the industry, but working with them...just a dream, right? Apparently not.

This is surreal.

If you want to know more about who I am, here's the short:

I'm 25, and I've tested, designed (just a little bit), and critiqued videogames for the last three years, all while teaching a class on the industry (I also wrote the curriculum). Additionally, I hosted a weekly gaming-themed event at the school. Oh, and I also very briefly played Street Fighter at a professional level. I choked at the GameStop nationals, but I'm not bitter. I lost to one of the best, that rascal Mike Ross...

But anyway, here I am.

I’ll keep an eye on the forums, oversee the company presence on social networks, blog, help plan events, etc, and more. As they say in the fighting game community, “get hyped.”

One thing I don’t want to be is another marketing mouthpiece spewing press release jargon. I’ve built much of my career on cultivating an honest relationship with my audience, and I don’t intend to stop now. But please keep in mind that although I’d like to comment on everything as before when I was a journalist, I am now a part of a multi-million dollar company. My words and actions, however small, large, positive, and/or negative, could impact the work of hundreds. Don’t call it censorship. I call it responsibility.

Most of all, please keep in mind that I’m like many of you. I’m a humble, hardworking media sponge who’s been given a tremendous opportunity. I’m going to do all I can to not waste it, and you, the fans, are the ones who benefit most.

As I begin this new chapter of my life, I invite you to take it with me at minnesotainmontreal.com (be aware of cheese, and not the kind you eat). Also, check out additional ways to find me at the bottom of this post.

I’m looking forward to working with and for all of you.

Stay classy,

Kyle

P.S. I’d like to immediately answer any and all questions you may have regarding Eidos Montreal, and/or the titles we’re developing, but I just started! I’ll do what I can! Don’t hurt me if I can’t deliver the exact pixel count of a weapon scope.

P.P.S. I’ve attached a piece of concept art to this post. Enjoy.

ZakKa89
30th Aug 2010, 20:37
Welcome : D

Sooo the most important question obviously is...


Who do you main in street fighter? ^^

Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 20:39
The Red Cyclone!

avenging_teabag
30th Aug 2010, 20:40
Hi Kyle!

What's that room in the concept art? Could you tell specifically please? Is that a living apartment?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Aug 2010, 20:42
Welcome, Boss! :cool:

Good to have you with us, Kyle. Fab intro and thank you for that gorgeous bit of eye-candy. :thumb:

Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 20:42
Hi Kyle!

What's that room in the concept art? Could you tell specifically please? Is that a living apartment?

Some things I think are better off being discovered while you're playing. ;)

Esnuk
30th Aug 2010, 20:43
Welcome aboard, Agent! Damn, I really envy the role that you cover! It must be very exciting! Moreover, that concept art is nice.

Ilves
30th Aug 2010, 20:43
What's that room in the concept art?


Moreover, what have you been feeding that thing? It's taking forever to load... Oh, and welcome! :group_hug:


edit: Well, color me intrigued. What's with the wires on that figure? Thanks for sharing :)

avenging_teabag
30th Aug 2010, 20:44
Some things I think are better off being discovered while you're playing. ;)
Oh, well. It was worth a try.

Dr_Bob
30th Aug 2010, 20:46
Welcome!

Ashpolt
30th Aug 2010, 20:46
Hey, welcome, good to have a new community manager after all this time. I'm sure we'll all have plenty of questions for you after you've had a few days to settle in and find your feet!

[EDIT] OK, here's a nice awkward question for you to start with! Why are the devs barred from posting on this forum?

[EDIT 2] ....and to make it a more awkard question, why are they barred from posting here, but at least one of them posts freely on SomethingAwful?

Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 20:49
Hey, welcome, good to have a new community manager after all this time. I'm sure we'll all have plenty of questions for you after you've had a few days to settle in and find your feet!

[EDIT] OK, here's a nice awkward question for you to start with! Why are the devs barred from posting on this forum?

[EDIT 2] ....and to make it a more awkard question, why are they barred from posting here, but at least one of them posts freely on SomethingAwful?

I wasn't aware of any sort of ban. o_O I'll ask around...

ZakKa89
30th Aug 2010, 20:49
The Red Cyclone!

Awesome!


That concept art is really interesting. The ceiling is mindblowing :eek:

Red
30th Aug 2010, 20:49
'sup.

Ashpolt
30th Aug 2010, 20:50
I wasn't aware of any sort of ban. o_O I'll ask around...

Yeah, I apologise in advance: you're not going to like me very much. :D

Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 20:51
Yeah, I apologise in advance: you're not going to like me very much. :D

Pish posh! No worries. :)

Khaeru
30th Aug 2010, 20:53
welcome :)

Keir
30th Aug 2010, 20:58
Huzzah!

Spyhopping
30th Aug 2010, 21:01
A warm welcome Kyle! You sound like a pro for the job.

And some lovely concept art, cheers.

Victorcahat
30th Aug 2010, 21:16
Hello,
Up until now (have browsed the forums since the announcement of the game last year), although the forum had some interesting debates about transhumanity, most of the discussions became repetitive because of lack of information & neglect form community managers. Now, with a full time person on the job that seems committed to gear up the community for this great game Deus Ex : Human Revolution seems to be, I have finally decided to join in. I hope you well in your new functions, and keep the news comming our way !

V.

(I respect fully the moderator's commitment to the community but, up until now, none actually seemed to bring fully new informations despite their efforts to find as much as possible on the web.)

Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 21:20
Hello,
Up until now (have browsed the forums since the announcement of the game last year), although the forum had some interesting debates about transhumanity, most of the discussions became repetitive because of lack of information & neglect form community managers. Now, with a full time person on the job that seems committed to gear up the community for this great game Deus Ex : Human Revolution seems to be, I have finally decided to join in. I hope you well in your new functions, and keep the news comming our way !

V.

(I respect fully the moderator's commitment to the community but, up until now, none actually seemed to bring fully new informations despite their efforts to find as much as possible on the web.)

Glad to have you here. :)

Fluffis
30th Aug 2010, 21:20
Very nice. Welcome to Hell! Mwaahahaha! *cough*
Sorry... got a devil in my throat there.

It's going to be interesting to see what you have to say, and what you're going to think about this forum.
I'll try not to be too hard on you, until you've had a chance to settle in. ;)

Again: Welcome!

St. Mellow
30th Aug 2010, 21:29
Hi.

IH-Denton
30th Aug 2010, 21:35
We actually will be appreciated for blog updates http://www.deusex.com/blog (because we were waiting this blog for too long I think (=)
And that means we all have been waiting for some official information and fresh news which releases would be nice to see a bit more frequently than one news per two month (=

Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 21:38
We actually will be appreciated for blog updates http://www.deusex.com/blog (because we were waiting this blog for too long I think (=)
And that means we all have been waiting for some official information and fresh news which releases would be nice to see a bit more frequently than one news per two month (=

Duly noted.

Right now I'm swamped with my normal duties and getting PAX shenanigans organized.

Tecman
30th Aug 2010, 21:55
Welcome, you poor, poor bastard. :D

Don't take the vile this community is sometimes capable of producing too seriously. Just take a deep breath and drink something warm while here, it helps. Also, for the record, although we like our shinies (artwork, screenshots, music), we tend to drill into people pretty hard if it means getting potential info. See the threads from people who went to GamesCom, for example.

Honestly, the only thing I'd really like from you right now is to try and clear up the bosses situation, minus the marketing, please. Do it thoroughly whenever you can, tho I don't expect you to be able to say everything, obviously. Just some insight into "do you need to kill the bosses in 1 on 1 showdowns or are there variations & other methods on these fights, perhaps even ways of avoiding or neutralizing conflicts with proper choices" would be lovely.

Thanks and good luck.

(Don't screw it up. :p )

WildcatPhoenix
30th Aug 2010, 21:59
Welcome, Kyle!

I'm sure they briefed you about the boards when you started, but let me at least offer my assurances that we are glad to have you with us! You'll have to pardon the general disgruntledness (sp??) of some of us, including myself. For the most part we love Deus Ex and were/are genuinely excited by the prospect of a sequel.

We do, however, have a ton of concerns about the direction the developers have taken with DXHR. Some of these concerns are unfounded (or the product of simply not having enough information to go on). Many of them are legitimate.

The main thing that would make us all a LOT happier is more communication from EM. Here's hoping you can sneak out from under the info release ban from time to time to enlighten us! :thumb:

Bono
30th Aug 2010, 22:04
Prepare for third-person/takedowns/cutscenes/cover system/health regeneration/watered-down stealth/deus-ex-needed-art-direction/what-have-I-forgotten rage, Coyotegrey. Your predecessor Rene might've not managed to tolerate the forum fury. Ah yes, and I'll be one of those who are on fire.

K^2
30th Aug 2010, 22:13
No offense, Coyotegrey, but the fact that they introduce a Street Fighter fan as a community manager in conjunction with the trailer worries me greatly.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
30th Aug 2010, 22:16
No offense, Coyotegrey, but the fact that they introduce a Street Fighter fan as a community manager in conjunction with the trailer worries me greatly.

LOL. Are you being serious? It's hard to tell... :D

ThePrecursor
30th Aug 2010, 22:18
I too hope that's just a silly joke, K^2. They hired him (Welcome btw!) and he happened to be into Street Fighter. What gives?

Spyhopping
30th Aug 2010, 22:27
K^2 90% of the time is being wonderfully sarcastic.

Daedalus Ciarán
30th Aug 2010, 22:29
No offense, Coyotegrey, but the fact that they introduce a Street Fighter fan as a community manager in conjunction with the trailer worries me greatly.

It's times like these that make me come back to this forum. :)

Welcome along Coyotegrey! You'll find this forum is like Christmas time with the family: arguments, cold silences but with the occasional hug and gift wrapped present that is witty, paranoid behaviour.

I would like to second Aspholt's question regarding the devs conspicuous absence. Do they just not love us anymore? Did they ever? Are we a secondary consumer base to them, replaced by the vaguely described and by most accounts probably non-existent 'casual gamer' Deus Ex fanbase which has become their favourite? Is that what we've become in their eyes? :(

Break it to me gently. I'm in a fragile emotional state over DX:HR at the moment.

K^2
30th Aug 2010, 22:31
I'm serious. They show us a video with 3rd person cover, takedowns, etc. We loose a community guy who was a big DX/Thief fan. We get a community guy who is a Street Fighter fan. Nothing wrong with the later, but I just don't believe in coincidences.

Edit: In case it's not clear, I'm talking about a shift from stealth to action and correlation between changes in HR from DX and changes in the community guy.

Coyotegrey
30th Aug 2010, 22:35
I'm serious. They show us a video with 3rd person cover, takedowns, etc. We loose a community guy who was a big DX/Thief fan. We get a community guy who is a Street Fighter fan. Nothing wrong with the later, but I just don't believe in coincidences.

I'm a fan of games. Street Fighter's just one of the games I enjoy playing. I only mentioned my history with Street Fighter because it's a bit unusual.

Edit: Feel free to browse my Xbox 360 profile (http://360voice.gamerdna.com/blog-games.asp?tag=Coyotegrey), if you wish. It's not necessarily out-of-date, but ever since I could finally afford a new gaming PC (about a year and a half ago) I've primarily played on there.

H.D.Case
30th Aug 2010, 23:17
Hello, it is nice to have you around - maybe it will all start making sense here. ;) Right now it is often as random as the epic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISXiFJS9D5A (your first words reminded me about it :) ) So good luck!

Street Fighter? So you prolly liked the movie :P I was always more into Body Blows though,sorry ;)
The cover art is pretty interesting - looks a bit like a lab, especially with this gripper-like thing on the far left. If the puppet-like thing is a puppet, I wonder what the take on that is gonna be. The cliched motif is - it barely moves, it's damaged/an unfinished project, but it manages to tell you you sth like "yes *short circuit* they took her *short circuit* they said they would take her to .... " Adam: "Where? *gasp* Where to???" Puppet "... *blowout* *blowout* ..." Adam "Damn it!!" Hope it is not that one! ;)

pha
30th Aug 2010, 23:42
Hello Kyle. I'm so glad you fulfilled your dream and thanks for the fine piece of concept art.

Tverdyj
30th Aug 2010, 23:42
Welcome and best of luck, you'll need it, I think.

I think the main question on everyone's mind right now is how to explain the logic in EM's entire history of communication with its fanbase. And by "communication" in this case I mean everything we find the devs saying to various gaming media on the net. As in, why is it that all we get are promises without a single real fact to back them up on anything that's "good" or "improved" about the game, but we get numerous confirmations and evidence on what we think is "bad" (not to beat a dead horse, but examples include health regen and 3rd person stealth/takedowns)

I'm sure they briefed you on this, but you must also understand that DX fans are devoted to the original title, and we all WANT DXHR to be great. Just that we don't think what we've been shown so far will make for a great DX game.

pha
30th Aug 2010, 23:48
A piece of humble advice, those of us who seem to complain too much about the DX:HR news (or lack thereof) DO NOT want to sabotage the game, on the contrary, we just want it to be a successful and prestigious title which is loyal to the roots of the first game, and still an original title by itself with boldly designed original features, without giving into works-every-time cheap tricks of the modern game industry and clumsily integrate them into a Deus Ex installment just because "they worked at other games".

K^2
30th Aug 2010, 23:56
Feel free to browse my Xbox 360 profile (http://360voice.gamerdna.com/blog-games.asp?tag=Coyotegrey), if you wish. It's not necessarily out-of-date, but ever since I could finally afford a new gaming PC (about a year and a half ago) I've primarily played on there.
Considering the fact that people here have been complaining that EM is turning DX into Halo and Gears of War, not exactly reassuring. But I'm not familiar enough with the 360 lineup to know what games to look for.

Do you have a Steam profile?

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 00:09
Considering the fact that people here have been complaining that EM is turning DX into Halo and Gears of War, not exactly reassuring. But I'm not familiar enough with the 360 lineup to know what games to look for.

Do you have a Steam profile?

Yep. But since I was a journalist, my profile's been private for awhile now.

Romeo
31st Aug 2010, 00:38
Considering the fact that people here have been complaining that EM is turning DX into Halo and Gears of War, not exactly reassuring. But I'm not familiar enough with the 360 lineup to know what games to look for.

Do you have a Steam profile?
Know what would be really swell is if you could just read into some other minute details. Perhaps about how the fact "Grey" is in his name clearly means the aliens from DX:IW will be the primary focus of the game, or some other assanine observation.

Anyways, welcome aboard brother!

sonicsidewinder
31st Aug 2010, 00:46
Welcom to the party. Corona? Fosters?

xsamitt
31st Aug 2010, 00:51
New CG.......Welcome.Before time began there was the cube.No wait that's something entirely different.lol
As has been said........ we are as tuff as nails kinda crowd who truly love this title.And some of us here are old fogies who know the difference between style over substance and really hope that we get a decent sequel this time.
We wish you the best.
Live long and prosper......no wait...... that's something entirely different....lol

Romeo
31st Aug 2010, 01:28
Welcom to the party. Corona? Fosters?
Canadian Club. ;)

New CG.......Welcome.Before time began there was the cube.No wait that's something entirely different.lol
As has been said........ we are as tuff as nails kinda crowd who truly love this title.And some of us here are old fogies who know the difference between style over substance and really hope that we get a decent sequel this time.
We wish you the best.
Live long and prosper......no wait...... that's something entirely different....lol
LOL! Epic welcome.

Pinky_Powers
31st Aug 2010, 02:54
Well met, Kyle!

You have indeed come into a rather prickly place. There is no true Winning here, so don't even bother yourself with that nonsense. Mr. Bison is using cheats... there is no defeating him. It will only corrupt your immune system and decimate your health. You're not a journalist anymore. You're on the opposite side of that war now. Thick skin you must develop, and a fine reserve of bull$h1t; or you'll find yourself battling an aggressive case of Hairy Tongue in three and a half months time. René is dead and floating out there on the Hudson Straight. This is serious business, godddamn it!

But you already know this, don't you? Who are we kidding? You're well acquainted with the deranged mutants that fester on the Net. You may have even bedded one or two of us, just for kicks. But there are no free rides. Especially on a highway of psychopaths. You've heard the cold, bestial cry of our hearts, and you still chose to treat with us. A professional stance and rock-hard calluses on your thumbs may give you a sense of power... if only just a sense... but you'll need to scuttle about under a cloak of savage treachery to succeed in the end.

No doubt you tell your students the same thing, more or less. But if you can no longer teach, somehow you must reverse the process and develop the ability to DO. I look forward to watching your progress.

Pinky.

FrankCSIS
31st Aug 2010, 02:58
Makes you feel old when the manager is actually younger than you, if ever so slightly.

BTW, if the 1-UP picture is accurate, I see a pattern between you and René. Seems they went back into the manager creation screen and simply fiddled with the hair and beard colours... :p

Oh and, Welcome! You still have a few hours to pull a "It's my first day!". Use it well.

PS: Let it be known that my office isn't far from Maisonneuve.

Just sayin...

beastrn
31st Aug 2010, 04:00
Won many points by being a Street Fighter player :)

I can already assume you're very aware of how much the fans love any piece of "good" information, and how much they hate any "bad" information, due to how the SF community always reacts to news. So your spin on these pieces of information before release could very well sway the opinions of some of the more jaded members around here. Well, hoping that there is any "good" information :)

Welcome!

Romeo
31st Aug 2010, 04:39
Makes you feel old when the manager is actually younger than you, if ever so slightly.

BTW, if the 1-UP picture is accurate, I see a pattern between you and René. Seems they went back into the manager creation screen and simply fiddled with the hair and beard colours... :p

Oh and, Welcome! You still have a few hours to pull a "It's my first day!". Use it well.

PS: Let it be known that my office isn't far from Maisonneuve.

Just sayin...
LOL!!! That... Is going on my Facebook.

Won many points by being a Street Fighter player :)

I can already assume you're very aware of how much the fans love any piece of "good" information, and how much they hate any "bad" information, due to how the SF community always reacts to news. So your spin on these pieces of information before release could very well sway the opinions of some of the more jaded members around here. Well, hoping that there is any "good" information :)

Welcome!
That's a good point, he can pretty much bribe us with his brain stuff.

Dead-Eye
31st Aug 2010, 04:57
The picture is an A.I. in the matrix. Or a vary sick kid alive by augmentations.

Oh and hi Coyotegrey... let me be the first to say RUN!!! While you still CAN!!! These people they will take away you're soul!

I highly recommend having no feelings in the community, like you're some kinda robot. Like Helios! Also try to derail arguments as much as possible, also don't get in a fight with someone unless you know you can win. If you do feel like getting in fights that you may lose I highly recommend you make another account and fight you're points form there. We already know some of the EM employees do this, it's a conspiracy but it's totally accurate.

K^2
31st Aug 2010, 05:12
Know what would be really swell is if you could just read into some other minute details. Perhaps about how the fact "Grey" is in his name clearly means the aliens from DX:IW will be the primary focus of the game, or some other assanine observation.
Considering the fact that it's his username from long before he joined EM, it's clearly unrelated.

You really ought to consider all the factors. Since you don't seem to be paying attention to details just now, I'll walk you through it.

Background. Rene works as a community manager. Does descent job of holding things over in total information vacuum. EM needs him to sell us their vision of HR. Rene, however, turns out to be a terrible used car salesman. (Which is a virtue in my books.) Then Rene suddenly leaves. Now, I don't know what happened, but if selling us the game he wasn't happy with wasn't a factor in Rene leaving, I'll eat my IW box.

Naturally, EM needs a new guy. They don't want the same situation to repeat. So they have two options. Option one, hire someone who is a good used car salesman. Option two, hire someone who is sold on the EM's vision.

We finally get new community guy. Top two games on his 360 profile are Street Fighter IV and Halo 3. That seems to me like smack down in the middle of the demographic for HR. That by itself might have meant nothing, but considering the two likely options that EM would be going for, we have a winner. Option two.

I'd like to point out that it is the better of two options. A community guy who actually going to care about the game, and is going to still try to stay honest with the fans as much as he can is much better than someone who's trying to sell you a lemon with every half-truth he can squeeze out. So I'm sure it'll work out for the best.

The only thing I'm pointing out is that EM is absolutely knowingly leaving the old DX fanbase in the dust. They are targeting a completely different kind of gamers, and they have a new community representative who will speak to them in their language. Any hope that EM has made "honest mistakes" in HR design are gone. They are not trying to make a DX game. They are trying to capitalize on the name.

Dead-Eye
31st Aug 2010, 05:25
The only thing I'm pointing out is that EM is absolutely knowingly leaving the old DX fanbase in the dust. They are targeting a completely different kind of gamers, and they have a new community representative who will speak to them in their language. Any hope that EM has made "honest mistakes" in HR design are gone. They are not trying to make a DX game. They are trying to capitalize on the name.

I blame society, culture and government... actually mostly capitalism. Hopefully when Raptor Jesus comes back he will set everyone straight.

Romeo
31st Aug 2010, 05:32
I blame society, culture and government... actually mostly capitalism. Hopefully when Raptor Jesus comes back he will set everyone straight.
I am SO making a 17th account with which to criticize that assessment.

As to your post, K^2, you still seem to be operating under the assumption you know these things, which is bizarre, given that I still speak with Rene on a regular basis (Hell, went out for drinks with him just recently) and the reason he left Eidos - In Montreal - was due to family - In Vancouver. Any other 100% accurate guesses you need me to rip apart or are you good for now?

Dead-Eye
31st Aug 2010, 05:35
and the reason he left Eidos - In Montreal - was due to family - In Vancouver. Any other 100% accurate guesses you need me to rip apart or are you good for now?

I geuss K^2 better start making that youtube in which he eat's his IW case.

Romeo
31st Aug 2010, 05:37
I geuss K^2 better start making that youtube in which he eat's his IW case.
I'm not going to hold that to him, obviously, but I mean it looks rather silly when the pillar for your entire argument is false.

II J0SePh X II
31st Aug 2010, 06:12
Congratulations on your new job Kyle. Anyone who's got 550gs on Kameo is okay by me, lol.

I don't really like coming to this forum and reading all the ridiculous bile about console gaming. The sad thing is, developers listen to (and sometimes promote) this crap and we end up with a game that requires no skill. If I wanted to use less skill, I'd get a PC and use a mouse and keyboard. Like you, haha.

MaxxQ1
31st Aug 2010, 06:17
Heh... the guy's not even here 24 hours and the sharks and piranha are circling in for the kill.

On the other hand, I'm just a remora, living off the scraps left behind...

Anyway, welcome Kyle. Try not to get eaten alive here, because this bunch can be pretty rough, although I'm sure you already know that, since you probably lurked here for a couple weeks or more before entering stage right.

Although... so far this board has been pretty tame compared to the Ion Storm Austin DX boards when Invible War was released - correction, when IW's *demo* was released. It got worse when the full game came out.

So, no pressure... :D

Gizmostuff
31st Aug 2010, 06:45
We finally get new community guy. Top two games on his 360 profile are Street Fighter IV and Halo 3. That seems to me like smack down in the middle of the demographic for HR. That by itself might have meant nothing, but considering the two likely options that EM would be going for, we have a winner.

The fact that he is using a console (360) as a system of choice is what strikes me as a little odd.

Welcome to the forum.

pha
31st Aug 2010, 07:18
The fact that he is using a console (360) as a system of choice is what strikes me as a little odd.

He said he's primarily a PC gamer, and the reason his top games on his 360 profile are Halo whatever and SF4 can be because he indeed prefers PC for quote unquote "real" games.

Besides, it's his life and his choice, and his gaming platform won't effect his efficiency as a CM as long as there's a healthy communication between us.

rokstrombo
31st Aug 2010, 07:28
Welcome Kyle! :)

Isterio
31st Aug 2010, 07:32
Hi Kyle,

Like you, I'm also happy that you are here now. I do like your introduction and I'm curious about what you're going to do from now on (without setting you under pressure, hopefully).

So far I was quite sceptical about the communication policy of EM in this forum, because there was "none". However, hiring you seemed to be a good choice. Keep up the positive attitude ... and welcome!

[EDIT]
You could get some friends by saying, how playing on consoles strengthened your love for the PC ;)


@MrsP
The world is a disc!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Aug 2010, 07:34
He said he's primarily a PC gamer, and the reason his top games on his 360 profile are Halo whatever and SF4 can be because he indeed prefers PC for quote unquote "real" games.

Besides, it's his life and his choice, and his gaming platform won't effect his efficiency as a CM as long as there's a healthy communication between us.


A sensible post, so quoted for truth. I hope this thread can stay positive now. All fallacies quoted as truth/fact have been put to rest. Yay.

And Pinky, hilarious! You should be a writer, I would be your number one fan. :cool:

ZakKa89
31st Aug 2010, 08:07
The new CM has just arrived, and can already make himsef familiair with the overexaggerated pessimism on this forum :lol:

Pinky_Powers
31st Aug 2010, 08:09
And Pinky, hilarious! You should be a writer, I would be your number one fan. :cool:

I am a writer (http://www.myspace.com/pinkypowers/blog?page=2). But my little sister is my number one fan.

puzl
31st Aug 2010, 09:19
The new CM has just arrived, and can already make himsef familiair with the overexaggerated pessimism on this forum :lol:

This.

Truth be told, i've never seen a community forum as bitter as this one. People moan about the most anal of details just for the sake of it.

Welcome new community guy!

Cronstintein
31st Aug 2010, 10:50
Heh, yeah at least DX:HR is in the same vein as the original. Just think of poor x-com fans getting their franchise turned from a deep turn-based strategy game into a FPS :(

Man a redo of that game with a baldur's gate style engine (real-time but you can pause for orders) would be sweet.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Aug 2010, 11:17
I am a writer (http://www.myspace.com/pinkypowers/blog?page=2). But my little sister is my number one fan.

Going Pink for Pinky. I'm moving over for your lil sister... but can I be your No2 fan? Pretty please. :o
I love your blog... it's a masterpiece! Bookmarked.
In the meantime, are you not signed up with a book publisher? You ought to be. If you are, you can PM me your author name in the strictest confidence. Ssssh. ;)

**


Anyway, back to our new CM, Kyle. Keep those welcomes coming in and make him feel appreciated around here. :group_hug:

avenging_teabag
31st Aug 2010, 12:02
This.

Truth be told, i've never seen a community forum as bitter as this one. People moan about the most anal of details just for the sake of it.
I can't say for the gaming community, but in the Lord of the Rings fandom some 10 years ago when the movies were being made, it was exactly the same. The die-hard purists are always the most shrill, it's just how the cookie crumbles.

Oh, and welcome to Kyle once again :)

MrFoxter
31st Aug 2010, 12:07
I don't understand your concerns about his history. Are you guys gonna marry him or what? :D
If you don't like him, just don't talk to him.

I'm glad that there is finally someone who actually has something new to say. You know, without any EM presence, we can talk our theories and opinions here, but now there will be Kyle to give us some fresh news and stuff!

So, welcome Kyle! ;)

dark_angel_7
31st Aug 2010, 12:21
Nice to see you here. :)

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 12:28
Jeepers. And I thought everyone was going to spend pages talking about the new piece of concept art!

ZakKa89
31st Aug 2010, 12:42
Jeepers. And I thought everyone was going to spend pages talking about the new piece of concept art!

We don't get excited for concept art anymore. We need more gameplay! And PC-version screenshots :D

Still, I want to see every new piece of information. The concept art is lovely.

sesc
31st Aug 2010, 12:44
Welcome Coyotegrey and 'Hello' to the rest, as I'm myself relatively new here.

I absolutely love the style of this concept art. That mixture of old and futuristic is just class.

MrFoxter
31st Aug 2010, 13:11
I like new concept art, but It would be even more awesome to see this room in-engine with applied textures! :)

Shinrei
31st Aug 2010, 13:15
Welcome Kyle and have a nice stay...beware of some trolls out there. Don't feed 'em! :D

Lovely concept art and it's really a kind of mindblowing and sorta creepy ceiling?! Oo

But thanks for this one.... now we want some more concepts, trailers, gameplay videos, PC screens and a release date plz (scnr). :P

Mindmute
31st Aug 2010, 13:32
As to your post, K^2, you still seem to be operating under the assumption you know these things, which is bizarre, given that I still speak with Rene on a regular basis (Hell, went out for drinks with him just recently) and the reason he left Eidos - In Montreal - was due to family - In Vancouver. Any other 100% accurate guesses you need me to rip apart or are you good for now?

That part I'd suppose was largely him just speaking out of his butt, however the rest doesn't seem too hard to believe considering the way EM have been handling the interaction with this community.

Also, while I don't share K^2's concerns this time, unless there was some PM exchange that resulted out of his comment, his concerns went largely unanswered. As you know, he's not just some troll who's bashing the community and EM for the heck of it, he's just as interested and participative in the discussions here as anyone.




On topic now:
Welcome Coyotegrey and thanks for that bit of concept art. Can you tell us how early in the design process that was made?

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 13:48
Welcome Kyle and have a nice stay...beware of some trolls out there. Don't feed 'em! :D

I agree with Willow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFxz8qjOm28#t=6m13s).

TrickyVein
31st Aug 2010, 13:51
Hey Greycoy - er - I mean, coyotegrey! You're a young man. Don't let these forums gray your hairs any more.

Ashpolt
31st Aug 2010, 13:52
Jeepers. And I thought everyone was going to spend pages talking about the new piece of concept art!

Yeah, unfortunately for you most people on here are pretty numb to concept art now, as it's all we had to go on for about two years, and we just want to see the damn game itself now! If you really want to get us talking, post some shots of the inventory and aug upgrade / management screens.

No, I'm serious! PC shots would be a bonus - if you check here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110047) you'll see that about 3/4 of us on here are intending to buy this game (if at all) on PC, so we'd like some reassurance that the PC version is getting love. The fact that the few shots released so far have been from the console versions, and have been aliased as hell, hasn't exactly helped.

But platform digression aside, we really do want to see the menus. You'll learn quickly that, for the most part, we're not a group of people who will be impressed by flashy whizz-bang action and EXPLOSIONS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akXc9I6cFlI) and are instead (again, mostly) wanting to hear about how this game will offer depth.

Dr_Bob
31st Aug 2010, 13:57
But platform digression aside, we really do want to see the menus. You'll learn quickly that, for the most part, we're not a group of people who will be impressed by flashy whizz-bang action and EXPLOSIONS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akXc9I6cFlI) and are instead (again, mostly) wanting to hear about how this game will offer depth.

I love me some menus!!

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 14:05
On topic now:
Welcome Coyotegrey and thanks for that bit of concept art. Can you tell us how early in the design process that was made?

Unfortunately I can't at this time.

There is definitely a plan in place for releasing information, including additional videos, assets, etc., but I'll do everything I can to give you more material. I assure you that as the title nears ever closer to its release date you'll see, read, and hear more content.

Please be positive for the future and make helpful suggestions when you can. :)

WildcatPhoenix
31st Aug 2010, 14:09
Unfortunately I can't at this time.

There is definitely a plan in place for releasing information, including additional videos, assets, etc., but I'll do everything I can to give you more material. I assure you that as the title nears ever closer to its release date you'll see, read, and hear more content.

Please be positive for the future and make helpful suggestions when you can. :)

Annnnnnd so it begins...

Honestly I couldn't be less enthusiastic about DXHR at this point. Sure, maybe something will be released in the future that will have me frothing at the mouth like a rabid, newborn fanboy, but EM/Square Enix's marketing "plan" just plain sucks.

For a company so keen on focus group development, why the hell wouldn't they ask us, the pre-established fanbase? Makes no damn sense. :hmm:

pha
31st Aug 2010, 14:23
Unfortunately I can't at this time.

Sounds familiar...

luminar
31st Aug 2010, 14:26
Well hello coyotegrey! Are you working on HR or are you just in charge of keeping us lot in line? Or both?

Irate_Iguana
31st Aug 2010, 14:31
Annnnnnd so it begins...


Sounds familiar...

At this point in time I feel that I should point out I told you so! (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1433890&postcount=11)

Also I would like to point out that "when pigs fly and hell freezes over" isn't a marketing plan.

Ashpolt
31st Aug 2010, 14:34
To try and spin WildcatPhoenix's point into a more constructive, or at least more educational, post:

This is something you're going to have to be aware of here: Eidos Montreal's community relations have so far been non-existent. And I'm not even really exaggerating there: yes, there have been a couple of studio visits for a very lucky few (but a big two fingers up to everyone who lives outside of easy access to Montreal) but other than that, nothing, despite the fact that one of the things the community has been screaming for for a couple of years is some kind of feedback from the team. I'm not saying we're all going to suddenly be alright with (for example) regenerating health and the prevalence of third-person, etc, just because a dev comes on here and explains to us the reason for their inclusion, but it'd help to have an explanation of some kind, and directly to the people who are so vocally complaining about these elements - we've heard attempts at justifications for these elements, but a) they've been very vague and, in all honesty, poorly reasoned and b) they've been made directly to the press, rather than making even the vague attempt to include the community. The message from the community has been very, very clear: Eidos Montreal, we do not like what we've heard about these gameplay elements, please at least try to convince us otherwise. And this has been being said for two years now, EM can't really claim that we haven't been clear: if they paid any attention to their fanbase whatsoever they would have noticed this by now, but either they haven't paid attention, or they don't deem us worthy of communicating with (see my earlier question about devs being barred from posting on here.) Even when we had Rene before, he couldn't say anything really: I hope the same thing doesn't happen with you.

This is a pretty rambling post, but to summarise: a lot of people on here are pretty annoyed at the complete and utter lack of respect EM has paid to its community, and you're going to have to deal with that. Good luck!

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 14:34
Well hello coyotegrey! Are you working on HR or are you just in charge of keeping us lot in line? Or both?

I'm the community manager for Eidos Montreal, so I think that means I'm working with the development teams and marketing.

WildcatPhoenix
31st Aug 2010, 14:45
A lot of people on here are pretty annoyed at the complete and utter lack of respect EM has paid to its community, and you're going to have to deal with that. Good luck!

Yep. We've been outright ignored from the very beginning of this entire process.

Look, I don't expect professional game developers to sit there with a notepad and pen scribbling down suggestions from every half-cooked, rambling thread on these boards. But these are the official forums for the game, occupied by probably the most enthusiastic Deus Ex fans in existence. We would be the ones geeking out over every single screenshot, every gameplay clip, every piece of info we could get! And we'd also be the first to start the word-of-mouth promotion that would equal more sales.

So why ignore us? It genuinely feels like the existing DX fanbase is the absolute last priority for Eidos Montreal, especially when we see developers posting on other boards or releasing "press-only" footage at the largest gaming convention on the planet. If they spent half as much effort marketing the game as they do clamping down on E3 leaks, this board would be buzzing with anticipation by now.

As Ashpolt said, there will be quite a few of us who are extremely upset by health regen, cutscenes, third-person, and so on. But with EM's current "plan" in place, I doubt I'll even buy this game on release. I'm going to wait until all reviews are in (from DX fans, f..k the gaming press!) and then think about it.

Coming from me, an absolute Deus Ex fanatic, that says alot about how Eidos Montreal has managed to fumble this entire process.

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 14:46
To try and spin WildcatPhoenix's point into a more constructive, or at least more educational, post:

This is something you're going to have to be aware of here: Eidos Montreal's community relations have so far been non-existent. And I'm not even really exaggerating there: yes, there have been a couple of studio visits for a very lucky few (but a big two fingers up to everyone who lives outside of easy access to Montreal) but other than that, nothing, despite the fact that one of the things the community has been screaming for for a couple of years is some kind of feedback from the team. I'm not saying we're all going to suddenly be alright with (for example) regenerating health and the prevalence of third-person, etc, just because a dev comes on here and explains to us the reason for their inclusion, but it'd help to have an explanation of some kind, and directly to the people who are so vocally complaining about these elements - we've heard attempts at justifications for these elements, but a) they've been very vague and, in all honesty, poorly reasoned and b) they've been made directly to the press, rather than making even the vague attempt to include the community. The message from the community has been very, very clear: Eidos Montreal, we do not like what we've heard about these gameplay elements, please at least try to convince us otherwise. And this has been being said for two years now, EM can't really claim that we haven't been clear: if they paid any attention to their fanbase whatsoever they would have noticed this by now, but either they haven't paid attention, or they don't deem us worthy of communicating with (see my earlier question about devs being barred from posting on here.) Even when we had Rene before, he couldn't say anything really: I hope the same thing doesn't happen with you.

This is a pretty rambling post, but to summarise: a lot of people on here are pretty annoyed at the complete and utter lack of respect EM has paid to its community, and you're going to have to deal with that. Good luck!

I totally understand where you're coming from.

And yeah I realize the past history. I aim to do much, much better. But I just started two weeks ago yesterday, and, like I said, in addition to the usual duties I'm doing everything I can to make PAX a great experience for the community. I wish all of you could come out, but I know that's not the case. :(

I know it's a lot to ask to "hold tight a bit longer," but please understand that I've just started and there's so much to do.

Ashpolt
31st Aug 2010, 14:55
I totally understand where you're coming from.

And yeah I realize the past history. I aim to do much, much better. But I just started two weeks ago yesterday, and, like I said, in addition to the usual duties I'm doing everything I can to make PAX a great experience for the community. I wish all of you could come out, but I know that's not the case. :(

I know it's a lot to ask to "hold tight a bit longer," but please understand that I've just started and there's so much to do.

Sure. Please understand that (and I'm going to be presumptuous and speak for everybody here!) we don't blame you at all, just as we didn't blame Rene beforehand. It's the fault of EM's current excuse for a marketing plan, and I imagine you're going to struggle against that, unfortunately.

I just want to highlight one line from WCP's post, above:


It genuinely feels like the existing DX fanbase is the absolute last priority for Eidos Montreal

...And not just in terms of communications, but also in developing the game itself: we see a lot of features that are aimed at the "whizz-bang action BOOM" end of the market (you know what I'm talking about!) but little that expands the Deus Ex experience further towards depth: at its best, DXHR seems to be aiming to match the original, not exceed it, but on the other side of things they seem to be doing a lot to tailor it to the "Gears of War crowd" - and this shows in the little marketing they've done as well, with the sole gameplay trailer being all about the (mostly third person!) gameplay.

Please prove this belief wrong.

H.D.Case
31st Aug 2010, 15:55
All right, I will get to the point as it seems my extra comments were not taken into consideration ;)
1. The time of the not-for-the-masses oriented games is over. Deal with it. It ended with the niche-parent-dependent kid players coming of age. Then the games became attractive also to others, computers spread, internet (so advertising too) became more available. Games started to make profits, but also became more costly and time-consuming (no one person Commander Keen production no more), so there was no turning back. Games have to attract wide audience, so we will have to deal with different degrees of low value gameplay crap. Played Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines? Great game, one of the best I have ever played. One of the last really ambitious projects. They didn't have enough time to polish the game, the game did not sell well, the company went bankrupt.
SUMMARY: Games won't be perfect from this time on - all we can do is to fight to get as little gaming manure as possible in the final product.

In order to do so we have to agree what is the least harmful , and what attracts many, while we can try to convince the devs to do something about the major, subjective ofc, "flaws".
My idea is that that CUTSCENES are okay, I always feel great pleasure at seeing all those small details in the video that you can see due to game engine's limitations (I mean fvms ofc, I don't like the engine based ones, even the ones used to introduce the neighbourhood at mission beginnings - this is probably unavoidable tho') I just can't get it why you hate'em so much - they have a strong power for attracting wider audience.
COVER SYSTEM - instead of opposing it, why not try to convince the devs that it is all right to leave it and it is just that we want to have an option to turn it off? This option may not provide the same level of protection for us, but at least nothing would be forced on us. I don't believe that they would have to do much to make it work - they would just have to make the system not initialize the cover mode. That's all. So simple. I can live with that, even at the expense of worse defense and less spectacular visuals. Who knows, maybe at some point, while playing, even the biggest opponents would feel it might be good to give the system a try? Both parties would be happy, right? And they could show some cover eye candy in the trailers.
THIRD PERSON takedowns - for me it is the worst stuff. I feel it is cheap, I do not like the idea of 1-3 person shifts(also the wall kills may become cheap and illogical if you have to use it every other fight). IS IT really so difficult to put the takedowns on and off option? The game may be more difficult then, no easy 3 soldiers at a time kill, but many people, I dare say, feel it would work better for them.
NOW I ASK the CM - is it REALLY such a big deal to make it work that way? Or if you have that in plans, is it REALLY such a big deal to tell us about it?
That's all, cheers! :D

PS. Ok, two more questions, if you can answer them - can you tell us if there will be a playable demo of the game?
Question two - if your plans for releasing materials to the public ireally exists, why don't you put a meter on the webpage? That way we could at least know how long we have to wait and maybe even anticipate the new material more? :)

Deus_Ex_Machina
31st Aug 2010, 16:02
Welcome, Coyotegrey.

Hopefully EM will allow you to disclose more information than your predecessor.

Hope you know what you're in for. You will be endlessly hounded for info and when people don't get it they'll want your head on a pike. Such is the nature of making a prequel to arguably the greatest PC game of all time.

Maybe with a change in staff we'll see a change in EM's marketing strategy...

Nah!

Vladimyre
31st Aug 2010, 16:07
Great to see another small town Minnesotan making it big! :> I'm from Poedunk Southern MN myself. Welcome to the community!

AxiomaticBadger
31st Aug 2010, 16:40
Welcome New Manager! Glad to see you! Whatever they're paying you, it is not enough!

Since this seems to be turning into a questiony thread... Will new information from pax be openly shown on the main site after the con?

Also, will the Deus Ex 3 Installer let us choose which language we install it in? Please?

IH-Denton
31st Aug 2010, 16:47
We need gameplay actually. Coyotegrey, your aim for september is to get some gameplay videos (=
We don't understand one simple thing - why all the gameplay footage of DXHR was demonstrated behind closed doors only? Why EM didn't share it with public? Where is official videos (the last teaser with a bit of gameplay cuts shows us almost nothing)? That's all for now.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Aug 2010, 17:07
To those of you asking questions, please put those on hold for a while.

Kyle already said that he's going to be busy getting things sorted for PAX, and I'm pretty sure he has a truck-load of other things he has to do as he settles down into his new role. He has assured us that he'll do his best for us when he can, a little way down the line.

In the meantime, let's just give him time and keep this thread just for your welcomes. :thumb:

Dr_Bob
31st Aug 2010, 17:26
We don't understand one simple thing - why all the gameplay footage of DXHR was demonstrated behind closed doors only? Why EM didn't share it with public?

Probably because it was either alpha or beta gameplay, with issues the gaming public may not view with acceptance, whereas game journalists will understand that it is early code.

K^2
31st Aug 2010, 17:53
I geuss K^2 better start making that youtube in which he eat's his IW case.
Fair enough. As soon as I find out what wine goes best with cardboard, I'll get to production.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Aug 2010, 17:58
Fair enough. As soon as I find out what wine goes best with cardboard, I'll get to production.

I hear Didier Dagueneau Pouilly Fume Pur Sang helps digest cardboard very well. Bon Appétit!

68_pie
31st Aug 2010, 18:40
hey dude, welcome

idle thought (forgive me if this has been covered already) :-

1. How much have you played Deus Ex?

2. Did you like it?

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 18:50
As a heads-up:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=113201

imported_D_X
31st Aug 2010, 19:38
Hello Kyle, welcome to this crazy community, now have you got the goods man...I need my Deus Ex fix, EM has been starving us of proper Deus Ex info. Ether that or they seem to have confused Deus Ex with Gears of War, because they keep showing us 3rd person action:confused:

MaxxQ1
31st Aug 2010, 19:55
First off, this was in response to Kyle in this thread:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=87152&page=52

I felt that it wasn't really appropiate for that thread, so started this one. If any of the mods feel it should be moved or merged with another thread, I'm fine with that.

The first part is the part of the convo that led to my response.



This, Crysis 2, Halo: Reach, and...a few others were my most anticipated games of 2010.

Then release dates changed. :(

I adored the first Witcher. If I had the time I'd definitely go back and play it again. The game felt like it was made for adults, and not just because it had nudity...

Edit: I even wrote (http://www.ipr.edu/blog/2009/12/polish-developer-demonstrates-exemplary-videogame-design-distribution-and-support/) about the game, at least once.

This bit from your article -


CD Projekt first treated people well by speaking to their intended audience. Instead of hitting multiple platforms and possibly cutting aspects of the game, they aimed to appease a very specific audience of PC gamers. “Some companies make a game for everyone. We decided to stick to a specific audience,” Kicinski said.

- is going to seriously resonate with a *lot* of folks here. In many ways, I agree with them, despite the fact that I'm more of a moderate on most of the issues brought up here.


:)

I hope that's a good thing!

But seriously, check out the articles I wrote on that site, if you get time. You'll find I'm much more than just someone who plays Halo and Street Fighter. I have no allegiances to one platform either. I just love GAMES!

Your hope about it being a good thing... was that in reference to me being a moderate about the issues, or about the "seriously resonate with a *lot* of folks here" comment?

If the former, then yes, it's a good thing. If the latter, well...

Around here, the peeps are gonna say that CD Projekt did what EM/Squeenix *should* do and release for PC primarily and port to consoles later (if at all). They will argue that that game, as well as other PC exclusives still do well, and that the game(s) don't have to be "dumbed down" to appeal to a large audience. (and yes, we all realize that nothing can be changed at this point, so there's no real purpose to complaining about it, except to hear ourselves rattle on about it)

While I understand their point, and to an extent, agree with them, I guess I'm a bit hopeful that EM can create a game that can appeal both to us, the hardcore fans of the original, and the newbies to the franchise that they're hoping to draw in (and I understand *that* POV as well).

OTOH, most of the info we've gotten, and most of the "gameplay" footage we've seen, whether official or leaked, has pointed in a direction that screams consolization, with simplified controls, and so on. Hell, even the demos are played on a console. All the PC players want to know is if the game will look better on PC, have a control scheme optimized for PC, and generally not remind us that the game is also going on a console system or two.

Even though I tend to rail against consoles and console gamers, I try to keep it tongue in cheek, or so over the top outrageous that nobody could possibly take me seriously. Personally, I wouldn't touch a console system of any kind, but I understand there's a place for them. It just irritates PC users that the limitations of consoles affect the PC version of a game. Take Invisible War for example. Huge text, small levels, long load times, a ganky inventory, and all the other problems with that game that were directly attributable to being developed for the XBox, but not optimised for the PC.

If EM really looked at the two earlier games, and paid attention to what people here and at the ISA forums said years ago, then hopefully they won't make the same mistakes Harvey Smith and Co. made with IW, and can fix some of the issues with DX. So far, we haven't seen any indication that that's the case. It's one thing to say that they looked at the games, played them, and are staying true to the core values of the game (what those are is a subject for another discussion), but it's another to *prove* that.

We've heard a lot of talk, but seen no proof.

A lot of the info we've gotten has given me whiplash, as I see some "features" that make me think this is going to be a worthy successor to DX, but then I see something else that just makes me cringe and wonder WTF they were thinking. I think if we could start getting some straight answers, without the use of the word "cool", then maybe people would settle down somewhat. Obviously, you guys aren't going to please everyone (no matter how hard you try to go the mass appeal route), but just some reassuances that the PC version won't be consolized, and maybe a screen shot or two from a PC-build of the game (to prove it) would go a long way to settling some of the discussion here.

I realize that more info is forthcoming, but many of us have been here since the very first teaser trailer was released, and the info released in the three years or so since then has been a drop in the ocean. We here at this forum *do* feel forgotten, or feel like an afterthought, not worth bothering with. The fact that we get info second or third hand is also a problem, as when people out there hear about the game, one of the first things they will do is search for an official forum (which this ostensibly is) to find out more info. When they get here, they find nothing but arguments about thrid-person whatever, regen health, and so on, but no other info different from what got them curious in the first place. They see bitter old farts from the first game railing against the stupid n0obs and their consoles. IOW, there's nothing to keep them here, once they get here, and so the "official" boards have no real growth. Because there's no growth, new info gets released elsewhere, we get it second-hand, the newbs come in, see there ain't nothing interesting here, and leave. It's a vicious circle that can be stopped easily enough.

Hopefully, the next month or so will see some steps towards rectifying the situations I described above, and maybe this will get to be a somewhat friendlier place.

Otherwise, people are just going think EM is sitting in their offices/cubicles and saying "screw you" to everyone here.

Dr_Bob
31st Aug 2010, 20:21
THIRD PERSON takedowns - for me it is the worst stuff. I feel it is cheap, I do not like the idea of 1-3 person shifts(also the wall kills may become cheap and illogical if you have to use it every other fight). IS IT really so difficult to put the takedowns on and off option? The game may be more difficult then, no easy 3 soldiers at a time kill, but many people, I dare say, feel it would work better for them.
NOW I ASK the CM - is it REALLY such a big deal to make it work that way? Or if you have that in plans, is it REALLY such a big deal to tell us about it?
That's all, cheers! :D

1) There is a cooldown between takedowns.

2) Why do you keep asking for an "off-switch", just don't use it if ya don't want to use it.

MaxxQ1
31st Aug 2010, 20:24
1) There is a cooldown between takedowns.

2) Why do you keep asking for an "off-switch", just don't use it if ya don't want to use it.

I don't think he actually means turn it off, but I think he means a toggle for first- or third-person takedowns, depending on what the player would prefer.

Anasumtj
31st Aug 2010, 21:14
2) Why do you keep asking for an "off-switch", just don't use it if ya don't want to use it.

Because there is no melee alternative?

Christ, put two and two together. How can you be so oblivious to the issues some people take with this stupid takedown system.

"LOL ANASUMTJ, JUST USE GUNS AND IT'S OKAY. SERIOUSLY ITS NOT LIKE THE GAME WILL PLAY DIFFERENTLY AT ALL."

Lady_Of_The_Vine
31st Aug 2010, 21:19
^
Guys, we have several threads to discuss these points.


More welcomes in here please. Thank you. :thumb:

oxoxoxo
31st Aug 2010, 21:30
welcome!!

ZakKa89
31st Aug 2010, 21:40
I read your post but I still really don't understand why you didn't just post this in the other thread... Making a new thread comes off as a bit arrogant like your post is so important that it deserves its own thread, no offence.

Absentia
31st Aug 2010, 21:50
You couldn't just send him a PM?

Dr_Bob
31st Aug 2010, 21:52
Welcome.

puzl
31st Aug 2010, 22:19
Jesus christ, give it up already. If you wanted big-budget games to be developed for the PC in mind, then you all should have bought Crysis and supported the format. Sales do the real talking and there is absolutely no way on this earth that a publisher is going to invest millions into the development of a game and not want to maximise their profits by releasing it to as many people as possible - especially when the majority of sales come from consoles.

It's a business decision, not a creative one and I don't see it changing any time soon. And yes, I realise that games like WOW, sims etc are PC dominant and sell well, but they appeal to a specific core group of people and are the huge exception to the rule. Even Bioware and games like ME are obviously console lead. The most we can hope for with DX:HR is to make it a fun, enjoyable experience on the PC, with perhaps some GUI and mouse-tweaks. This is exactly why it will disappoint core DX gamers, since that game was MADE for PC's. It's a whole different game now and thinking that devs are gonna give a ***** about nerds crying on a forum won't change anything. It's purely the publisher making the rules here and last I heard, Square Enix isn't exactly renowned for caring much about PCs. Deal with it.

Coyotegrey
31st Aug 2010, 22:52
CD Projekt did a great job with the first Witcher title, and the sequel is one of my most anticipated games of next year. Now, regarding their development process, designing for just one platform in mind isn’t new or unique. Many companies do it for every platform out there. I mentioned their efforts developing specifically for the PC because they bring it up often, probably because there is this idea that the PC is a dying platform (it’s not).

I, in no way, wanted to say that developing for multiple platforms simultaneously can’t be done, or it hasn’t been done. I was just saying that this one particular method of development worked very well for this team.

To the rest of your post:

I realize you’ve been somewhat left in the dark, but I know everyone here wants this to be the best Deus Ex game yet. I, of course, can’t determine if it is or isn’t at this point (the game’s not done yet, after all), I’m very impressed by what I’ve seen and played, and I think you will be too once more information releases.

Part of my job is to try and encourage open communication between the studio and the community, but it won’t happen overnight, and it won’t happen without cooperation on both sides. Let’s put the past behind us and pave a new future.

Thank you, to all of you for your continued patience. I assure you, change gonna come (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQU4torUz-Q#t=0m32s).

Khaeru
31st Aug 2010, 23:02
OT @puzl I agree about the stuff you said except "And yes, I realise that games like WOW, sims etc are PC dominant and sell well, but they appeal to a specific core group of people and are the huge exception to the rule.". Wow, for example, has something near to 20 milions of players...which is good but still not enough. That crap called Maple story has 95 milions of players while games like Vindictus and mabinogi heroes (same game, different versions) have a large community, growing everyday. Besides (f2p) mmos are the most popular form of entertainment in china and korea, so i'd not call them a specific core group. Just getting the facts right.

beastrn
31st Aug 2010, 23:13
Jesus christ, give it up already. If you wanted big-budget games to be developed for the PC in mind, then you all should have bought Crysis and supported the format. Sales do the real talking and there is absolutely no way on this earth that a publisher is going to invest millions into the development of a game and not want to maximise their profits by releasing it to as many people as possible - especially when the majority of sales come from consoles.

It's a business decision, not a creative one and I don't see it changing any time soon. And yes, I realise that games like WOW, sims etc are PC dominant and sell well, but they appeal to a specific core group of people and are the huge exception to the rule. Even Bioware and games like ME are obviously console lead. The most we can hope for with DX:HR is to make it a fun, enjoyable experience on the PC, with perhaps some GUI and mouse-tweaks. This is exactly why it will disappoint core DX gamers, since that game was MADE for PC's. It's a whole different game now and thinking that devs are gonna give a ***** about nerds crying on a forum won't change anything. It's purely the publisher making the rules here and last I heard, Square Enix isn't exactly renowned for caring much about PCs. Deal with it.

Yeah thanks captain obvious

The point is there should be more devs/publishers taking a risk (what a shame that making games that respect their audience as more than money waving chimps is considered a risk) on more complex, intelligent games. There's nothing special or interesting about just another game aimed at kids and idiots. They're forgettable and the sales always quickly drop off after release.

How about instead of being glutinous, money hungry ******* bastards, some big companies actually start making IMPORTANT games again and not just games that attempt to SELL WELL. How about cutting staff? How about not spending millions on huge buildings with massive logos out the front? The only reason they think they're forced to make games that are profitable (and profitable always means lowest common denominator these days) is because they have to support all this growth in their company. Here's a tip for them; stop growing so fat.

"it's business"

It sure is hey.

Also I think with the success of games like Demon's Souls, Witcher and Heavy Rain it proves that complex and innovative titles are still viable. Sure you won't sell 10 million copies like GTA4, but if you plan well, develop intelligently and not spend a bajillion dollars on marketing, you can actually make a good profit and make games that truly go down in history for something other than how much money it made.

pringlepower
31st Aug 2010, 23:16
Yeah thanks captain obvious

The point is there should be more devs/publishers taking a risk on more complex, intelligent games. There's nothing special or interesting about just another game aimed at kids and idiots. They're forgettable and the sales always quickly drop off after release.

How about instead of being glutinous, money hungry ******* bastards, some big companies actually start making IMPORTANT games again and not just games that attempt to SELL WELL. How about cutting staff? How about not spending millions on huge building with massive logos out the front? The only reason they think their forced to make games that are profitable (and profitable always means lowest common denominator these days) is because they have to support all this growth in their company. Here's a tip for them; stop growing so fat.

"it's business"

It sure is hey.

Also I think with the success of games like Demon's Souls, Witcher and Heavy Rain it proves that complex and innovative titles are still viable. Sure you won't sell 10 million copies like GTA4, but if you plan well, develop intelligently and not spend a bajillion dollars on marketing, you can actually make a good profit [i]and/i] make games that truly go down in history for something other than how much money it made.

GTA IV going in a more realistic direction was pretty risky. And adding all those radio stations, internet websties, TV shows, etc. definitely didn't attract many buyers relative to the effort it took to make them.

beastrn
31st Aug 2010, 23:18
It was risky in the context of a GTA title. That is to say, not risky at all.

Though you're right about the effort vs the rewards. A lot of love went into GTA4 that can't be argued.

pringlepower
31st Aug 2010, 23:21
It was risky in the context of a GTA title. That is to say, not risky at all.

Though you're right about the effort vs the rewards. A lot of love went into GTA4 that can't be argued.

Eh there are certain core elements of GTA that people don't want to mess with. Kinda like FP, lockpicks, multitools... you see where I'm going?

H.D.Case
31st Aug 2010, 23:32
To those of you asking questions, please put those on hold for a while.

Kyle already said that he's going to be busy getting things sorted for PAX, and I'm pretty sure he has a truck-load of other things he has to do as he settles down into his new role. He has assured us that he'll do his best for us when he can, a little way down the line.

In the meantime, let's just give him time and keep this thread just for your welcomes. :thumb:

Ehm, yeah, my bad, sorry. It was just... too tempting ;)


But only shortly, to end this (sorry for the offtop again):
@ Dr Bob - MaxxQ1 put it right for me, in a way :)
@ MaxxQ1 - you put it right, in a way - you can't just toggle - look at the gameplay trailer-the pace. They would have to do more to make a full subsitution.I could do even without additional first person animations. We can discuss it further elsewhere.

puzl
31st Aug 2010, 23:40
Yeah thanks captain obvious

The point is there should be more devs/publishers taking a risk (what a shame that making games that respect their audience as more than money waving chimps is considered a risk) on more complex, intelligent games. There's nothing special or interesting about just another game aimed at kids and idiots. They're forgettable and the sales always quickly drop off after release.

How about instead of being glutinous, money hungry ******* bastards, some big companies actually start making IMPORTANT games again and not just games that attempt to SELL WELL. How about cutting staff? How about not spending millions on huge buildings with massive logos out the front? The only reason they think they're forced to make games that are profitable (and profitable always means lowest common denominator these days) is because they have to support all this growth in their company. Here's a tip for them; stop growing so fat.

"it's business"

It sure is hey.

Also I think with the success of games like Demon's Souls, Witcher and Heavy Rain it proves that complex and innovative titles are still viable. Sure you won't sell 10 million copies like GTA4, but if you plan well, develop intelligently and not spend a bajillion dollars on marketing, you can actually make a good profit and make games that truly go down in history for something other than how much money it made.

you ask for 100 million+ dollars to put into a project which will be sold to the smallest demographic of players (at least in sales) just in the name of "taking a risk" and try and sell that to the publisher. you'll be laughed out of the room.

all the examples you gave are good games, but with the exception of witcher, they're all on the console. even the witcher was supposed to be getting a console port wasn't it? they all had budgets WAY smaller than DX:HR too.

you can make good games that work on all formats. the recent batman:aa game is a good example. all the bioware games. mafia 2, etc.. but the days of the pc taking the lead when the game is to be released multiformat is long since over. it's naive to think otherwise.

puzl
31st Aug 2010, 23:46
OT @puzl I agree about the stuff you said except "And yes, I realise that games like WOW, sims etc are PC dominant and sell well, but they appeal to a specific core group of people and are the huge exception to the rule.". Wow, for example, has something near to 20 milions of players...which is good but still not enough. That crap called Maple story has 95 milions of players while games like Vindictus and mabinogi heroes (same game, different versions) have a large community, growing everyday. Besides (f2p) mmos are the most popular form of entertainment in china and korea, so i'd not call them a specific core group. Just getting the facts right.

those MMORPGs like WoW are monthly subsciption based though, so they earn *****loads of money from it. Way more than the release of a game like DX:HR which will no doubt have strong initial sales, which then slope down, as per the norm. WoW also doesn't have to deal with a second hand market or piracy in the same way as other games. This is what I meant by a "core" group of players, since they don't necessarily work in the same way as other games on the market. as it happens, a lot of people play and support them, but it's still very much its own thing... and Square Enix isn't Blizzard.

beastrn
31st Aug 2010, 23:52
you put 100 million+ of your money into a project and try sell it to the smallest demographic (at least in sales) just in the name of "taking a risk"

This is what I'm saying. Companies that make these games have projected sales figures and have to make sure their game hits those. Instead of 100million+ on a project, why not 30million+ and less spammy advertising? Instead of assuming every game has to sell 3-5 million copies to be worth making, why can't the focus be to just make a good game? Budget smart, lighten team size... there are so many ways to make games cheaply.


all the examples you gave are good games, but with the exception of witcher, they're all on the console. even the witcher was supposed to be getting a console port wasn't it? they all had budgets WAY smaller than DX:HR too.

What is the point of mentioning that though? I'm not saying everything has to be pro PC. I love consoles. Most of my favorite games are on console.

One thing you will note though that those games are all exclusive to one platform. Another way to shrink cost and create focus. Multiplatform games are generally always bad (and easy, stupid, etc), but that's a discussion for another time.


you can make good games that work on all formats. the recent batman:aa game is a good example. all the bioware games. mafia 2, etc.. but the days of the pc taking the lead when the game is to be released multiformat is long since over. it's naive to think otherwise.

Batman: AA was decent but hardly an example of a good game.
All the Bioware games are easy-mode games for jocks and kids.
Mafia 2 isn't a game, it's a cutscene generator that you occasionally hold forward to continue the story.

Not that that has anything to do with anything. How was that supposed to prove that PC being the lead platform is over? It only seems over because there's more money (apparently - again, if the game wasn't dumb I think we can all agree you'd find the sales skew back over to PC - but every multiplatform game is dumb so of course console sales will take the lead) in consoles, it's over because of the illusion that there's more money.

Obviously your taste and experience with games is a lot lighter than mine - and I'm not trying to cause a big argument - but you can't just declare smart games are dead and leave it at that. They're not dead, they just require some actual skill and intelligence to create.

:scratch:

luminar
31st Aug 2010, 23:58
you ask for 100 million+ dollars to put into a project which will be sold to the smallest demographic of players (at least in sales) just in the name of "taking a risk" and try and sell that to the publisher. you'll be laughed out of the room.

all the examples you gave are good games, but with the exception of witcher, they're all on the console. even the witcher was supposed to be getting a console port wasn't it? they all had budgets WAY smaller than DX:HR too.

you can make good games that work on all formats. the recent batman:aa game is a good example. all the bioware games. mafia 2, etc.. but the days of the pc taking the lead when the game is to be released multiformat is long since over. it's naive to think otherwise.

So don't make a game that requires such a big budget. I'd gladly play a game released today with deus ex's graphics, sound and such if it had as good gameplay, dialogue, story, characters, and other such things.
Bioware fails epically with everything after mass effect 1. Sure it has great production values and good story and characters (this is biowares saving grace.) but everything else is generic, casual gamer ****! (Casual gaming is the big problem these days not consoles. I realise they have limitations but good game design can overcome that.)

dda
1st Sep 2010, 00:04
Hello Kyle! Luvin your work so far! Your presence is already making visiting these forums a positive experience instead of the usual boredom & frustration.

H.D.Case
1st Sep 2010, 00:57
Ok, let me write something here about Witcher, because the game was raised in the previous posts. Some of you may not like it, taking into consideration the current state of affairs here :P I thought you may find it interesting, inspiring maybe, to read how it all went with this game, how the success came and the development proceeded.
When you mentioned in your comment the game's developing proccess, it all came back to me.
I was pretty interested in Witcher from the very beginning. The community that grew around the project was something I had never experienced before and have never experienced since. Some background first, so you get the idea of the climate around it.
The game was the first game project of the company that had been distributing and localizing foreign games for the Polish market. Hey, they even started that way - two friends, as far as I remember, setting up a company which aim was to translate foreign titles into Polish. It was a good while ago. The first titles were still Amiga games, I think, when basically all was in English. I still have a beautiful and fully translated rpg -style Syndicate manual from that time, released by the company. Those were times when gaming industry was...well... completely unlike what it is like today. Different money, dfferent target customer.

Many years later they decided to make their first game and it was a big deal for them. There was a risk, but at the same time they knew they wanted to do it right and did that for the sake of the story. Witcher books were quite popular at the time. Especially the saga - a history of Witcher who was to protect a small girl that destinies of many were bound with. She eventually got trained by witchers as she was growing up, then got some arcane training too and eventually became a slasher-girl, at some point fighting in a group of outlaws. :) The witcher would team up with different characters, like a vampire for example. It was all in the middle of a war. It was a pretty exciting story, so many people were excited about the prospects of the game too. Especially after the witcher film/film series failure (badly chosen actors, bad ideas, bad realisation, pretty much a joke - here's a sample, and this is one of the best moments of the series, so you should get the idea http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss9qMhwdgSA ).

So, people's expectations and hopes were high. First, the community was told that the author himself worked with the developers. Everyone was happy as a lark. We would learn that it was the story of what happened after the last witcher book story pretty late though. First were the concept arts, short animations of characters, posters. The name of course. The "witcher" word is just a translation, of course, of the original profession name - it was a kind of neologism. The translation was really bad. The devs chose it, apparently having no knowledge of how translation works, even though the author, Sapkowski, preferred the "hexer" name. Now I got used to it, but still think it is just stupid. All subscribers would receive a newsletter with related events, bonus materials for the subscribers only. And imagine that - you could just write to the guys and discuss the game with them directly! It felt really personal. Every new concept art, model etc could be commented on the website. I remember that many people complained that the first concept arts showing Geralt reminded them of the actor who played in the movie. And the devs changed it :) The materials were given slowly, but you did not complain - you knew it had to take time and you knew that you took part in the process. You see, they did not have much pressure from the top, as the top wanted the same as the regular workers. I imagine it can't be the same way with big and old game companies - the top wants results, you game has to sell. And then you focus on the market - where can we sell it, how can we sell it, what people buy now. You are not free with your decisions, regardless of all the money you get for the development. But it is possible to work with the community for satisfactory results and you do not need much money for that.
I bought the original Witcher game as a special edition - an additional album with creatures was included and so on. I finished the game, did not like it much, I felt the story was much worse than what I expected (this is what happens when you face the depth of the book beforehand :D ) , maybe too much mindless slashing, but I am happy that I bought it. Because of all that happened around the game, the positive climate and good memories. The box is on my shelf now. See what I am aiming at? :) Think about it! And, well, if the approach to the game was the same as to "the other popular games at the time", the game would not be remembered, right? :) I hope the top will give you some freedom for the final stages of the game's development :) Or, in the worst case, an unofficial patch maybe? ;)

Kodaemon
1st Sep 2010, 01:20
Hi Kyle! Reading through your posts, I really like your attitude and interaction with the community so far :):thumb:

xsamitt
1st Sep 2010, 01:31
Hi Kyle! Reading through your posts, I really like your attitude and interaction with the community so far :):thumb:
I agree....It would appear this new guy has the right stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbIEwIwYz-c :D

FrankCSIS
1st Sep 2010, 02:19
You think you feel abandoned? lol Over on the Thief forums we've been left twiddling our thumbs waiting for Rene's replacement to give us some information on something very important since early in the spring.

I suggest you forget about the Thief forum for a solid year. The game was announced way, way too early. I understand the desire to attract new personnel for the studio's expansion plans, but there was little point in setting up an actual forum for it. The only "news" since its opening has been the unofficial logo, which is most likely going to change five times in the next three years. The fanart section, which holds some truly magnificent gems btw, is the closest to concept art you can hold on to for a long, long while. I simply do not understand a single decision made so far, for all things management.

I hope someone, somewhere, is at least learning something from this.

Oh yeah, new guy. Hi! Have you started to personalise your workspace yet, or do you keep it neutral until you get a feel of the place?

During my two walkarounds of the studio I noticed the cleaning guys have passes to all sections and offices. I suggest you start learning their names and faces. Considering how low-profile they seemed to me, anyone with a broom, a bucket, and a green uniform could walk around unnoticed.

Just sayin...

jtr7
1st Sep 2010, 02:33
I suggest you forget about the Thief forum for a solid year. The game was announced way, way too early. I understand the desire to attract new personnel for the studio's expansion plans, but there was little point in setting up an actual forum for it. The only "news" since its opening has been the unofficial logo, which is most likely going to change five times in the next three years. The fanart section, which holds some truly magnificent gems btw, is the closest to concept art you can hold on to for a long, long while. I simply do not understand a single decision made so far, for all things management.

The problem with waiting a solid year is that, according to EM's timeline--thus far, without an announcement to the contrary of an extension, as was granted for DX:HR--next May/June would be the release date for T4.:lmao:

FrankCSIS
1st Sep 2010, 03:09
May/June?

Hah. Please. Let's not further spoil Kyle's intro thread with mockeries.

May/June!

atheelogos
1st Sep 2010, 06:33
Some things I think are better off being discovered while you're playing. ;)I have a feeling its a room not in this world but in a virtual one.

Senka
1st Sep 2010, 07:19
Jesus christ, give it up already. If you wanted big-budget games to be developed for the PC in mind, then you all should have bought Crysis and supported the format.

Perhaps a poor example considering the console focus of Crysis 2.

jtr7
1st Sep 2010, 07:51
May/June?

Hah. Please. Let's not further spoil Kyle's intro thread with mockeries.

May/June!

The rest of the post is far more important, and the whole post makes no claims for the actual release date.


So, Kyle, what is your personal history with the Deus Ex and Thief franchises (Holistically, rather than hours spent playing, and so forth...)?
Will you be taking over the Facebook pages?

pringlepower
1st Sep 2010, 08:02
Perhaps a poor example considering the console focus of Crysis 2.

Right, the console focus is that it's... on the consoles. Since when was that a focus?

MaxxQ1
1st Sep 2010, 08:14
Ehm, yeah, my bad, sorry. It was just... too tempting ;)


But only shortly, to end this (sorry for the offtop again):
@ Dr Bob - MaxxQ1 put it right for me, in a way :)
@ MaxxQ1 - you put it right, in a way - you can't just toggle - look at the gameplay trailer-the pace. They would have to do more to make a full subsitution.I could do even without additional first person animations. We can discuss it further elsewhere.

Yeah... toggle wasn't really what I meant, at least, not in-game. What I thought you meant was something in the options menu to choose between first- or third-person.

Pretentious Old Man.
1st Sep 2010, 09:27
It's nice to see that you're here, Kyle. The secondary unit is now operational after six months.

Desperate. Your turn.

Pretentious Old Man.
1st Sep 2010, 09:38
I always find it amusing when consumers take the side of big business. Our respective needs as demographics are both mutually exclusive and diametrically opposed.

Irate_Iguana
1st Sep 2010, 09:43
I always find it amusing when consumers take the side of big business.

It annoys me to no end that people today are far more apologetic of business. I'm a young guy, but I hate the fact that customers nowadays are actually afraid to stand up for their own needs. It is always "but the business has to make a profit" or "we should be thankful we are even getting something". No, we don't. The only thing we need is to take care of ourselves.

Pretentious Old Man.
1st Sep 2010, 10:00
It annoys me to no end that people today are far more apologetic of business. I'm a young guy, but I hate the fact that customers nowadays are actually afraid to stand up for their own needs. It is always "but the business has to make a profit" or "we should be thankful we are even getting something". No, we don't. The only thing we need is to take care of ourselves.

Exactly. When business leaders start saying things like "but the consumer needs a decent product that will last for a fair amount of time, satisfy their needs, and will in no way be value engineered, built to a budget or rushed out of the door without working", THEN I shall start to take their side.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 11:09
Obviously your taste and experience with games is a lot lighter than mine - and I'm not trying to cause a big argument - but you can't just declare smart games are dead and leave it at that. They're not dead, they just require some actual skill and intelligence to create.

:scratch:

See, it's comments like this which are exactly the reason this forum is a *****hole. My taste is "lighter" than yours? What the hell is that even supposed to mean? I played the original DX as much as anyone and have been gaming since I owned my original Spectrum 48k back in 1986, rinsing the hell out of Sabrewulf. I've played gaming competitively (and made money from it) and continue to play pretty much every genre of game out there, on both console and PC.

What I am saying is that you can't expect companies to put so much money into a game and not want to maximise their investments. It's not about sucking up to publishers or anything like that... it's just common sense. Indie games such as Flower, Braid, Limbo and the likes are always seen as "surprise" successes when they do well and it shows that you don't need hundreds of millions to make a good game... but the indie market is just as ruthless and for every game that is a success, theres hundreds more that isn't. Now multiply this risk by a million or so and that is why big publishers put consoles ahead of PCs.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 11:11
Perhaps a poor example considering the console focus of Crysis 2.

It's the perfect example. Do you honestly think Crysis 2 would be on the console if the sales from Crysis 1 were any good? They even admitted that piracy effectively killed any chances for Crytek being a PC-only developer and that the only way they can survive is to release multi-platform. That is the point I made.

Pretentious Old Man.
1st Sep 2010, 11:16
It's the perfect example. Do you honestly think Crysis 2 would be on the console if the sales from Crysis 1 were any good? They even admitted that piracy effectively killed any chances for Crytek being a PC-only developer and that the only way they can survive is to release multi-platform. That is the point I made.

You are confusing the concepts of survival and making more money. You are also believing what is quite literally the oldest and most oft-used excuse in the book for abandoning PC only development.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 11:18
It annoys me to no end that people today are far more apologetic of business. I'm a young guy, but I hate the fact that customers nowadays are actually afraid to stand up for their own needs. It is always "but the business has to make a profit" or "we should be thankful we are even getting something". No, we don't. The only thing we need is to take care of ourselves.

Again, incorrect. Consumers speak in sales. The demand for games like MW and the likes are exactly why they sell well. It's not about the business making money from a consumers point of view, it's rather filling their own selfish need to want to play crappy games like MW2 in the first place.

It even works the other way around. Alan Wake for example was seen as a huge disappointment and sold very poorly as a result. However, go on their official forums and you will see Remedy zealots defending the game and the company from any kind of criticism whatsoever. Who's needs are they looking after then?

Consumers have the ultimate power and publishers know it. They make games that people want to buy. Radical concept I know!

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 11:20
You are confusing the concepts of survival and making more money. You are also believing what is quite literally the oldest and most oft-used excuse in the book for abandoning PC only development.

I actually have a friend who works at Crytek who told me how much piracy killed any chance of Crytek beng a PC-only developer, but don't just take my word for it. Here is what the studio founder had to say about it: http://www.actiontrip.com/rei/comments_news.phtml?id=043008_2

Bono
1st Sep 2010, 11:32
It's nice to see that you're here, Kyle. The secondary unit is now operational after six months.

Let's hope there'll be no need for the killswitch.

Irate_Iguana
1st Sep 2010, 12:19
Consumers speak in sales.

And these consumers have convinced themselves that they are lucky that there is anything at all to buy. That was what I'm saying. For instance during the development of Fallout 3 there were often people saying that we really should buy the game on launch. Not because they thought it was a good game, but because it had been more than a decade since the last installment and that we should be thankful that there was even another game being made. That if we didn't buy the game Bethesda might not make another. That is the attitude that annoys me. And it is not just the game industry.




I actually have a friend who works at Crytek who told me how much piracy killed any chance of Crytek beng a PC-only developer, but don't just take my word for it. Here is what the studio founder had to say about it: http://www.actiontrip.com/rei/comments_news.phtml?id=043008_2

No. Crytek managed to kill their own game by launching a mindless short shooter that relied totally on pretty graphics. Graphics that most people at the time couldn't even run. So instead of making a game that people actually want to play they start to cater to consoles and hoping that they will be less discriminating customers. A case where customers voted with their wallet and the dev started crying.

Mindmute
1st Sep 2010, 12:22
And these consumers have convinced themselves that they are lucky that there is anything at all to buy. That was what I'm saying. For instance during the development of Fallout 3 there were often people saying that we really should buy the game on launch. Not because they thought it was a good game, but because it had been more than a decade since the last installment and that we should be thankful that there was even another game being made. That if we didn't buy the game Bethesda might not make another. That is the attitude that annoys me. And it is not just the game industry.

It actually bugs me that I've seen that comment on these boards a couple of times aswell.

Dr_Bob
1st Sep 2010, 12:36
Yeah thanks captain obvious

The point is there should be more devs/publishers taking a risk (what a shame that making games that respect their audience as more than money waving chimps is considered a risk) on more complex, intelligent games. There's nothing special or interesting about just another game aimed at kids and idiots. They're forgettable and the sales always quickly drop off after release.

How about instead of being glutinous, money hungry ******* bastards, some big companies actually start making IMPORTANT games again and not just games that attempt to SELL WELL. How about cutting staff? How about not spending millions on huge buildings with massive logos out the front? The only reason they think they're forced to make games that are profitable (and profitable always means lowest common denominator these days) is because they have to support all this growth in their company. Here's a tip for them; stop growing so fat.

"it's business"

It sure is hey.

Also I think with the success of games like Demon's Souls, Witcher and Heavy Rain it proves that complex and innovative titles are still viable. Sure you won't sell 10 million copies like GTA4, but if you plan well, develop intelligently and not spend a bajillion dollars on marketing, you can actually make a good profit and make games that truly go down in history for something other than how much money it made.

Industry expert over here, guys.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 14:16
And these consumers have convinced themselves that they are lucky that there is anything at all to buy.

I'd really like to see proof of this, rather than baseless comments on an internet forum. I don't know anyone who considers themselves "lucky" to be playing games. They buy them exclusively because they're fun.

The Fallout forums do not represent all gamers. Much like this forum, many of them *****ed and moaned about the proverbial rape of their franchise and damned it from the start. Low and behold, the game was actually decent and sold very well. Still they complained. Hardcore fans of the original are stuck in a one-track mindset and won't budge one bit in their opinions. That's just the way it is.

For everyone else who has a little more to worry about in life, they'll spend their money on what they feel is worth it. Supporting a game or a developer out of fear that they might stop releasing a particular franchise just does not represent the real world out of these forums, sorry. If it did, Alan Wake might have actually sold well.

Irate_Iguana
1st Sep 2010, 14:21
I'd really like to see proof of this, rather than baseless comments on an internet forum.

Funny how I should come with proof, yet you haven't provided anything either.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 14:21
Oh and Crysis was a decent game imo. Much better than MW and the likes. It was a brainless shooter in many ways (aren't they all?) but it was fun. It got solid reviews and seemed to be well received from PC players. But it didn't sell. They even told PC gamers beforehand that the project was a risk and that if it didn't sell, they wouldn't be able to exclusively support the format in future, but still people downloaded it.

This is why I can't be bothered to listen to PC purists who moan about the consolification of their games. They brought it on themselves by not buying the games in the first place. If they did, we might still have a DX game that was made exclusively for the PC... and probably a load of new things to moan about in the process.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 14:22
Funny how I should come with proof, yet you haven't provided anything either.

Proof of what? I linked you to the quote by the Crytek guy who told you in no uncertain terms that piracy killed sales of Crysis and that this was the reason why they will no longer be a PC exclusive studio. What else do you need?

nomotog
1st Sep 2010, 14:37
So you want people to make games exclusively for the PC. I guess all the RTS and other PC only games don't count then? The only thing I can ask is why? There is only one thing PC can do that consoles cant do and that is moding.

Now if you just want game makers to take risks and make inventive new game, don't worry they do that.

Irate_Iguana
1st Sep 2010, 14:46
I'd really like to see proof of this, rather than baseless comments on an internet forum. I don't know anyone who considers themselves "lucky" to be playing games. They buy them exclusively because they're fun.

Just take a look at some of the threads on the Bethesda forums pre-purge. Or some of the threads regarding The Old Republic instead of KotOR 3. The sentiment is out there, as are people advocating it. People don't buy games just for fun. There is a hell of a lot of brand loyalty and hope attached to this industry. Not to mention hype and advertising dollars.



The Fallout forums do not represent all gamers. Much like this forum, many of them *****ed and moaned about the proverbial rape of their franchise and damned it from the start. Low and behold, the game was actually decent and sold very well. Still they complained. Hardcore fans of the original are stuck in a one-track mindset and won't budge one bit in their opinions. That's just the way it is.

Fallout 3 was a terrible Fallout game but, there was no doubt about whether it would be a hit or not. It was made by Bethesda to basically be Oblivion with guns. Those guys have an awful lot of fans and really know how to market a product. A hit was all but guaranteed.

Good to see that you are siding squarely with the mainstream gaming press in pissing on the Fallout fans. If you'd taken a look at numerous threads on various forums during the development you'd have seen many fans open to changing things. Just like the people in this forum aren't against change per se, but against stupid changes.


Proof of what? I linked you to the quote by the Crytek guy who told you in no uncertain terms that piracy killed sales of Crysis and that this was the reason why they will no longer be a PC exclusive studio. What else do you need?

Perhaps something other than a PR statement by a company that first claimed consoles to be inferior to PC's and incapable of running their games and then did a 180 when they noticed they could make more money?



This is why I can't be bothered to listen to PC purists who moan about the consolification of their games. They brought it on themselves by not buying the games in the first place. If they did, we might still have a DX game that was made exclusively for the PC... and probably a load of new things to moan about in the process.

PC gamers don't buy **** and are far more conservative when it comes to buying games. Good PC titles still sell well. Especially via D2D and platforms such as steam. There is a lot of piracy, but a lot of sales as well. People find it easier to aim for consoles because they don't have to try so hard. They also find it easier to ignore the fact that piracy is also rampant on consoles. For all the talk about piracy, I've yet to see any hard numbers.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 14:59
So you want people to make games exclusively for the PC. I guess all the RTS and other PC only games don't count then? The only thing I can ask is why? There is only one thing PC can do that consoles cant do and that is moding.

Now if you just want game makers to take risks and make inventive new game, don't worry they do that.

I don't. I own all the consoles but do most of my gaming on the PC, but multi-platform games don't bother me in the slightest. If the game is more suited to the console, then I just buy it on the console. Job done.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 15:05
Just take a look at some of the threads on the Bethesda forums pre-purge. Or some of the threads regarding The Old Republic instead of KotOR 3. The sentiment is out there, as are people advocating it. People don't buy games just for fun. There is a hell of a lot of brand loyalty and hope attached to this industry. Not to mention hype and advertising dollars.




Fallout 3 was a terrible Fallout game but, there was no doubt about whether it would be a hit or not. It was made by Bethesda to basically be Oblivion with guns. Those guys have an awful lot of fans and really know how to market a product. A hit was all but guaranteed.

Good to see that you are siding squarely with the mainstream gaming press in pissing on the Fallout fans. If you'd taken a look at numerous threads on various forums during the development you'd have seen many fans open to changing things. Just like the people in this forum aren't against change per se, but against stupid changes.



Perhaps something other than a PR statement by a company that first claimed consoles to be inferior to PC's and incapable of running their games and then did a 180 when they noticed they could make more money?




PC gamers don't buy **** and are far more conservative when it comes to buying games. Good PC titles still sell well. Especially via D2D and platforms such as steam. There is a lot of piracy, but a lot of sales as well. People find it easier to aim for consoles because they don't have to try so hard. They also find it easier to ignore the fact that piracy is also rampant on consoles. For all the talk about piracy, I've yet to see any hard numbers.

Again though, don't think that the opinion of users on a community forum belonging to the publisher/developer in question represents the view of the majority of people in the world. Just look at this forum and then look at the comments on sites such as gametrailers for the DX:HR videos to see how radically different they are. I'm not saying either is correct, but I don't presume that one community forum represents the entire world.

PC Gamers don't buy ****? Then why is The Sims and it's million expansions always in the top 10 for pc sales? PC gamers are just as fickle, though our choice in what we buy is much smaller due to the fact that all the best studios either went bust when people stopped buying games for it, or moved over to consoles. At least we still have Valve, who are the shining light in a very dark room when it comes to PC gaming. I think even the most bitter of PC gamer can safely say then continue to make very good games and support them well.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 15:07
Oh and Crytek redesigned their engine specifically for consoles. The original crysis has never been ported to consoles, just as they said it wouldn't. They did say that the PC is still the best format to play Crysis 2 on, so at least they haven't given up completely. Whether it is a good game or not is another thing entirely though.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
1st Sep 2010, 15:35
I own all the consoles but do most of my gaming on the PC, but multi-platform games don't bother me in the slightest. If the game is more suited to the console, then I just buy it on the console. Job done.

Same here, pretty much.

pha
1st Sep 2010, 16:03
This is why I can't be bothered to listen to PC purists who moan about the consolification of their games. They brought it on themselves by not buying the games in the first place. If they did, we might still have a DX game that was made exclusively for the PC... and probably a load of new things to moan about in the process.

Right, PC gamers should have been less selective and bought all garbage games in the market to make the industry focus on PC. :lol:

Starcraft 2 got cracked even before its official release, and people can play WoW without paying a single penny via private servers, and AFAIK (sorry, too lazy to look it up) these two computer exclusive games made Activision Blizzard a fortune that all those "We're focusing on consoles because of PC piracy" buffoons can only dream about.

PC gamer: Why does my game crash every 5 minutes?
Devs: Piracy lol.

PC gamer: Why isn't there an option to disable mouse acceleration?
Devs: You know it, piracy.

Piracy on PC can be much easier and popular than it is on consoles, but if it had such a dramatic effect on sales, Crytek and every other studio who complain about PC piracy and still release games for PC would just cancel PC versions of their games altogether instead of putting less effort into them. It's just an excuse and it's simply easier to focus on consoles because of their standard hardware which makes the developing session a breeze compared to the obligation to make the game stable and smooth on over 9000 computer hardware configurations, and lower expectations of console players overall e.g. "I saw its cool pre-rendered trailer and this is GOTY, **** all of you nitpicking hater ***** now where is the preorder button, I'll preorder 3 of these and order some t-shirts, **** all of you elitist haters it's just a game why are you so picky, this is the best game ever".

And it's easier and cheaper for devs to simply port a 360 game to PC with unimpressive last moment additions like higher res textures and (often buggy) mouse controls instead of building a PC version from scratch. From personal experience 4 next gen games out of 5 require some tweaks out of the game or third party programs to become playable, every UE3 game comes with forced mouse smoothing and I have to edit the ini file to disable it (which takes 5 seconds, but it's still inconvenient when they could have easily put it in the control options instead of asking me to edit a text file) not to mention Nazi DRM which hardly effects sales and ends up punishing legit customers instead of pirates.

I'm really glad DX:HR will familiarize console gamers with the DX franchise, or make some of them buy the original game and be fascinated, but is it too much to ask for a proper PC version which is more than a pure console game with high res textures and mouse support with untoggleable mouse smoothing? Every single gameplay compromise we've discussed to death here are implemented to make the game more controller (read: console) friendly. And the game would be way better on PC without any of these.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 16:22
Loads of good studios closed due to lack of sales. Looking Glass Studios made some of the best PC games ever, but we all know what happened to them. Noone is asking people to buy **** games, but even the good ones just didn't sell well enough.

You said it yourself, 360 ports to the PC are easy and despite the rampant piracy, they can still make some money by releasing it on the PC anyway. But sales will ALWAYS be much lower than the console version and this is an undeniable fact. Why would publishers prioritise the format which sells the least? Use some common sense, please.

I'm just as annoyed with the situation as anyone, but i've been there from the start and seen PC gaming slowly go from a dedicated gaming system, right up to the afterthought it is for most developers now. Piracy and the internet aren't the only thing that killed it, but they sure as hell played a big part in it.

Hopefully PC gaming will have its own little renaissance again, but for the forseeable future, I just don't see it happening... and neither do publishers it seems. The best you can hope for is a decent PC port, with good mouse control and slightly better graphics.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Sep 2010, 16:42
I'm just as annoyed with the situation as anyone, but i've been there from the start and seen PC gaming slowly go from a dedicated gaming system, right up to the afterthought it is for most developers now. Piracy and the internet aren't the only thing that killed it, but they sure as hell played a big part in it.


PC gaming pushes the developmental envelope much much faster than consoles ever can. Unfortunately, this results in a Catch 22 situation where:

A) PC gamers reap the benefits of rapidly improving system performance. Unfortunately this also means they must constantly upgrade hardware, turning an entertaining "hobby" into a regular expense.
B) Console gamers must deal with games limited by the relatively inflexible nature of their platform. However, they benefit from not needing to upgrade every year, download new drivers, etc.

Personally, I don't have the funds to buy new graphics cards, sound cards, drivers, memory, etc every 1-2 years. So I've gradually drifted away from PC gaming, even though at heart I consider myself an original PC purist. It just becomes a matter of economics.

nomotog
1st Sep 2010, 17:05
PC was never a dedicated gaming system. It was a system made for spreadsheets that people put games on. Consoles are dedicated systems. I don't think game makers think of PC as an after thought. You need to have a lot of for thought to make a game for many systems at a time.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Sep 2010, 17:29
PC was never a dedicated gaming system. It was a system made for spreadsheets that people put games on. Consoles are dedicated systems. I don't think game makers think of PC as an after thought. You need to have a lot of for thought to make a game for many systems at a time.

You mean the dedicated systems people use for listening to music, browsing social media, playing DVDs/BluRay, streaming Netflix, etc?

(Hint: I'm referring to consoles here).

neoWilks
1st Sep 2010, 17:40
I really wish folks around here and everywhere else on the web would cut the PC elitism. This is coming from a PC player, not having purchased a console since the Nintendo 64. Many arguments citing "consolization" make plenty of fair points, but too many seem to attack consoles as being inherently poisonous to the gaming industry.

The problem with this is that in the former case, the good points are not helped by injecting in jabs against consoles ("consolization", "console kiddies", that sort of thing). A good argument is a good argument. I think Deus Ex HR is making bad decisions and I could not give a **** if it was released as a PC exclusive, a console exclusive, or as a ******* cell phone game. They are bad decisions no matter the format.

Secondly, if you are at all trying to have a dialogue you've just ****ed up first impressions of yourself for everybody who plays only or primarily on a console. Whereas they may have been receptive to your arguments had you simply stated them outright, the ad hominem bull**** has almost undoubtedly turned their perceptions of you sour. You've just poisoned the well, and any arguments you bring up are going to be colored by your inability to not act like a dick.

Pretentious Old Man.
1st Sep 2010, 18:11
^^^In a perfect world, multiplatform gaming would not result in dumbing down. Sadly, in the real world, it invariably does. How can it be anything otherwise when a controller has so few input buttons, and such limited resolution of the aiming system? (that is to say analogue sticks).

Until current gen consoles give K&M support, then they can never support games as complex as the best of the PC.

pha
1st Sep 2010, 18:33
You said it yourself, 360 ports to the PC are easy and despite the rampant piracy, they can still make some money by releasing it on the PC anyway. But sales will ALWAYS be much lower than the console version and this is an undeniable fact. Why would publishers prioritise the format which sells the least? Use some common sense, please.


Believe me I try.

Of course sales of console games are higher overall because of ten million reasons, but there are some multiplatform games whose PC versions sell better and are more successful. Like Orange Box games, Bad Company 2 (this was a kneejerk reaction to MW2 but anyway), or Borderlands. And even from 100% profit-based money-grubbing capitalist perspective it make sense to put a little more effort into the PC versions of their successors like Battlefield 3 or Borderlands 2 and increase the potential PC sales, instead of designing these games only for consoles and then hiring three computer engineering students to port them to PC in two weeks.

And I'm not saying consoles should be treated as a ginger stepson like PC is currently treated. Every multiplatform game ought to utilize the unique advantages of each and every platform it's released on.

Irate_Iguana
1st Sep 2010, 18:34
PC Gamers don't buy ****? Then why is The Sims and it's million expansions always in the top 10 for pc sales?

Because they might be good games for the people that like that type of game? It doesn't float my boat, but I know plenty of people that consider them fine games. I can't analyze the Sims, because I haven't actually played one. I couldn't say if they were **** or not.



Many arguments citing "consolization" make plenty of fair points, but too many seem to attack consoles as being inherently poisonous to the gaming industry.

I know from a few here on the forum that when they say that consoles are to blame they mean "the vision that the people in marketing have of the average console gamer and their (lack of) abilities and tastes". It is just easier and quicker to type consoles.

There are quite a few people here who rag on consoles but who fully understand that console players aren't subhumans and that consoles certainly have advantages. Console gaming in and of itself is fine and dandy. The mindset that it has created among executives and marketing bigshots is not fine and dandy.

neoWilks
1st Sep 2010, 18:42
^^^In a perfect world, multiplatform gaming would not result in dumbing down. Sadly, in the real world, it invariably does. How can it be anything otherwise when a controller has so few input buttons, and such limited resolution of the aiming system? (that is to say analogue sticks).

Until current gen consoles give K&M support, then they can never support games as complex as the best of the PC.
But again: I don't give a ****. If a game's mechanics are implemented poorly because they are limited by the number of buttons or because the dev team are just awful designers it doesn't matter. The criticism is that the mechanics are too simplified (and in most cases I'll agree that it's a valid criticism), the platform it was released on really doesn't matter.

I don't see any reason Deus Ex could not be played on a console, keeping all the controls intact (noting that I think tweaking the aiming system is an acceptable modification to a console port). The only real limit I can see is the number of hot keys, something I personally do not take much advantage of (though I could see how it might be a problem for some players who use them extensively).

An Xbox controller has 16 buttons (maybe more, is the D-pad four keys or actually eight?) counting "start" and "select". Discounting the movement keys, it looks like Deus Ex used around ten primary keys for item usage, world interaction, and modification of weapons (scopes, laser sights, etc). Some of these controls could be further condensed, like removing the next/previous weapon controls and just using a single key. The controls for augmentations and switching to specific weapons are controlled through hotkeys which is the only limitation I can foresee (though certainly not game-breaking are worthy of anything but minor criticism). Everything else, like ammo types and dropping items, are handled through the inventory screens.

(And we are talking about a real-time game here. Things like the original Fallouts and and other turn-based strategy games would perhaps be even less hassle to port to a console.)

Absolutely it is a problem when the PC version is a barely concealed port of a console game. But that has nothing to do with inherent qualities of the console, and everything to do with bad game design. Non-PC dedicated aiming systems, hot keys, etc are inexcusable. Some games don't even bother changing the tutorial instructions, commanding you to press the A-button to perform an action. These are not things I am excusing. Now, if we're discussing an RTS, I'll probably have a different opinion, but these aren't exactly at risk of making the transition to consoles.



I know from a few here on the forum that when they say that consoles are to blame they mean "the vision that the people in marketing have of the average console gamer and their (lack of) abilities and tastes". It is just easier and quicker to type consoles.

It's not easier, though. In so far as we're defining "ease" as the most efficient way to present one's message. Why not say it is bad design, if that is actually what is meant, rather than expect everyone to follow this awkward chain of thought? Unless that half a second to type two more characters is totally unbearable...

Cronstintein
1st Sep 2010, 19:30
The sims is more a game for casuals who aren't likely to be into the added pain in the butt piracy brings to the table (my ex-gf for example). For everyone who is tech savvy piracy becomes a strictly moral choice rather than a practical one... and sorry to say guys but immoral with money beats out moral and broke 9 times out of 10 in our culture.

Though piracy is technically possible on consoles it requires soldering wires onto leads in your $200 xbox... not something everyone wants to attempt based on an internet video guide. Plus there was a semi-recent crackdown that had many thousands 'blacklisted' due to being chipped. So it's a risky proposition compared to the relative safety and ease of downloading a torrent, a cracked exe and an emulator.

As someone who has a TERRIBLE computer incapable of running any game worth playing (Dx1 has framerate issues in some of the wide open environments...) I embrace consoles. No need to worry 'will this run?' I just pop it in and play. I do miss in depth strategy games but luckily galciv2 plays fine :D
So to play DX:HR you think I should have to drop a grand on a new computer? No thanks.

WildcatPhoenix
1st Sep 2010, 20:46
So to play DX:HR you think I should have to drop a grand on a new computer? No thanks.

Unfortunately this I where I fall as well.

The older notion of a "hardcore gamer" was someone who knew software and hardware, installed his/her own upgrades, could diagnose system problems, and always had the latest tech in order to keep up with system requirements for the games. This used to be the vast majority of gamers out there, but those days have loooong since passed.

The stereotypical opposite is the "casual gamer," someone who wants to be able to put the disc in and start playing. This term has taken on a derogatory connation, especially in the age of Wii family games or cellphone/social media apps.

But I don't see anything wrong with wanting to know ahead of time that, if I purchase a game, my system will definitely be able to play it. When I buy an Xbox 360 game, I know without a doubt my system has the specs to run it, and barring extreme circumstances (red ring o' death) will run it smoothly.

I loved PC gaming when I had a computer capable of running the games, but keeping up with the latest hardware/drivers/etc became too exhausting and too expensive to continue. My current PC can barely play the original Deus, and The Nameless Mod gives it all kinds of problems.

But the biggest issue is not the limitation of the console itself, but rather the perceived limits of the audience that designers target.

Cronstintein
1st Sep 2010, 20:50
The biggest issue is not the limitation of the console itself, but rather the perceived limits of the audience that designers target.

Couldn't agree more.

Absentia
1st Sep 2010, 20:55
For everyone who is tech savvy piracy becomes a strictly moral choice rather than a practical one... and sorry to say guys but immoral with money beats out moral and broke 9 times out of 10 in our culture.

You've got a point with piracy becoming a moral choice, but I don't think that people resort to pirating games because they can't afford them. If that were the case, then you'd get more piracy on consols, or you'd get a bunch of console gamers just not buying anything, especially since the price of most console games is a good 50% or so more than PC games. If you're saying that the difficulty of pirating on consoles is what puts people off doing it, then that's something quite different.

The thing that bugs me about publishers' attitudues to piracy is the belief that every pirated game is somehow a lost sale. I know I only speak for myself and a few of my friends that I've talked about this with, but if pirating games on PC suddenly became impossible, I'd continue to buy games that I genuinely think are good investments and I have a lot of respect for - but any games that I might've otherwise considered pirating, I wouldn't buy.

As stated earlier, PC gamers don't buy rubbish games. The fact that piracy is so easy means that we can play those rubbish games we don't want to buy. Does that make it right? Maybe not, but it's 'not really harming sales unless you count a sale as a £2 bargain-bucket purchase a few years later. It would seem to me that people who pirate because they really can't afford to buy games does not make up the majority of those who pirate.


As someone who has a TERRIBLE computer incapable of running any game worth playing (Dx1 has framerate issues in some of the wide open environments...) I embrace consoles. No need to worry 'will this run?' I just pop it in and play. I do miss in depth strategy games but luckily galciv2 plays fine :D
So to play DX:HR you think I should have to drop a grand on a new computer? No thanks.

I don't think many of us are arguing that DX:HR should be a PC-exclusive, as much as a lot of us would totally love that. You give a perfectly legitimate reason why you would buy the game on a console rather than a PC (expenses) but the argument is that there's still a large enough following of PC gamers that would want a well-done port (or, should I say, VERSION) of this game that it would be worth doing.

nomotog
1st Sep 2010, 21:08
^^^In a perfect world, multiplatform gaming would not result in dumbing down. Sadly, in the real world, it invariably does. How can it be anything otherwise when a controller has so few input buttons, and such limited resolution of the aiming system? (that is to say analogue sticks).

Until current gen consoles give K&M support, then they can never support games as complex as the best of the PC.

Sense you talked about controllers I will go ahead and talk about them too. About the only thing you have right is with aiming. Aiming is quicker and smother with a mouse then with a stick, But they keyboard is much worse then a game pad.

Analog sticks might not be the best for aiming, but they are way better then unseeing WASD keys. You can walk or run in any direction you want with just a slight movement. On a keyboard you have to hold down shift to run and trying to move in any direction other then a straight line is a lot harder.

The Xbox controler has 16 buttons on it. 4 shoulder, 4 face, 8 on the hat switch. A keyboard may have a lot of buttons on it, but when your using one hand you really can only get to about 11 that's not counting the WASD, but the big problem with keyboards is you can only press 3 keys at a time before it locks up.

And consoles have K&M support, but no one makes games that use them simply because the control er is better.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 21:14
Console piracy is more rampant than you think. It doesn't take any soldering to mod a 360, as it's just a case of flashing the drive firmware and can be done relatively easily by anyone if they do their research beforehand.

The PSP and DS game sales in particular are absolutely devastated because of R4 chips and the likes. All it takes is a simple cartridge to put in the back of your DS and the unit is completely open to ISOs, which are easily downloaded or shared on the net. The PSP is a little tougher in newer units, but anything before suffered likewise because of it. I will say that the PSP has a fantastic emulation scene though, which is something else entirely.

However, next to PC, these are like climbing a mountain in comparison. Anyone who knows how to copy and paste can crack a PC game. Internet connections are fast enough to download them easily on the net in hours too. Looking at things objectively, can you really expect people to want to spend £30 on something they can get for free? Morality goes completely out of the window when you're anonymous on the internet, at least for a lot of people.

People say they pirate for all sorts of reasons, but I think if people were being really honest with themselves, they'd admit that they do it because they can get it for free and get away with it with no repercussions. Afterall, you get exactly the same game and keep your money to spend on something else. It's easy to say "i'll buy it after I try it to see if it's any good" but I honestly wonder just how many people actually do this. I've said i'd do that loads of times, but didn't bother in the end, so i'm just as much to blame for this as anyone, especially in my uni days.

I'm not criticising anyone who does it at all, but I think it's pretty obvious that it has been the major reason why developers treat PC gamers with suspicion and a second rate service. Multiply this over the last 10 years or so, especially with the advent of broadband and you see the current state of things for us. The popular UK magazine PC Zone closed the other month... I used to love reading that magazine in the 90s. Kinda says it all really.

puzl
1st Sep 2010, 21:22
Oh and the KB/mouse is the best for FPSers and strategy games/complex RPGs. No question. I don't even attempt to play any FPSers on a console for exactly this reason. It's also why i'll be buying DX:HR on the PC.

On the other hand, the KB/mouse pretty terrible for everything else.

Red
1st Sep 2010, 21:24
And consoles have K&M support, but no one makes games that use them simply because the control er is better.

No. Because it's cheaper.

Cronstintein
1st Sep 2010, 21:32
The thing that bugs me about publishers' attitudues to piracy is the belief that every pirated game is somehow a lost sale.

Well I can speak from personal experience on this one. I'm not really into music but the music I do have is downloaded. If downloading music was impossible? I'd just go without. So I agree with you. Same goes for DVD sales, I would just get a netflix account if pirating wasn't possible.


but I don't think that people resort to pirating games because they can't afford them.

Not that they' can't afford them but that given the option people will choose not to spend cash they don't have to.

The Monochrome Man
1st Sep 2010, 21:44
So to play DX:HR you think I should have to drop a grand on a new computer? No thanks.

Not at all. If your monitor's in good nick, you can make a hefty upgrade for sod all. The Monitor, Hard Drives, and Optical Drives are all transferable - the case too if you want. That just leaves the motherboard, CPU, and the GPU and PSU to think about. If you machine was custom built, chances are you overspecified the PSU last time anyway, so that's probably transferable as well.

Not sure what the US prices are, but a PS3 in the UK retails for £250 with no games and a 160Gb HDD. [source : GAME.co.uk]

An Athlon II x2 can be had for ~£55, with a supporting motherboard that supports DDR3 about £50. £60 for 4Gb ram, which leaves £90 for a GPU before we start pushing the cost of a console. ~£60 will get you a HD 5450 or a GT 220, both of which will run anything on the market at the moment just fine, and you're still £30 below the cost of a Ps3, yet it'll run everything the console does at higher detail.
You can do it somewhat cheaper than that as well - if you choose a motherboard that uses DDR2 memory, you can carry over your old memory or just buy some new DDR2 on the cheap. The price has crashed now that everything's moving on to DDR3.

So far as I know, the PS3/Xbox aren't getting a life cycle replacement for another 3-4 years, and until they do a cheap upgrade like the one above will get you up to speed (and it'll mean you can finally watch those HD streams on youtube without them running at 2 fps!)

Consoles are normally only the cheap option for the year of their release. In this generation, they had that going for them for a few years thanks to Sony and Microsoft selling them at a loss, but they got bit hard on that and may not do that again next generation.

Once they've bedded in and PC components pull ahead again, the equivalent parts for a PC become as cheap as the console. So, if you're willing to wait a bit, it's still possible to be a PC gamer without spending any more than a console gamer. As an added advantage, you can get the games cheaper. PC games typically start a bit cheaper, and come down in price much faster than console games, especially when retailers have to compete with steam/D2D.


The question is, does this make me a shrewd git or a madman? :)



Edit : Just to weigh in on the piracy issue, I've never seen the point in pirating games. They're not that expensive if you've got a little patience. Mind you, I still buy DVD's and CD's.

I guess the answer to the question is that I'm just old-fashioned? :)

Cronstintein
1st Sep 2010, 21:53
Well my machine is a laptop so plug&play isn't nearly as easy as with a desktop.

I would be surprised if you could make a gaming rig for $200 from scratch.

The Monochrome Man
1st Sep 2010, 22:04
I don't think I could do it from scratch. But check the classifieds in your local rag - you're bound to have a few people locally that are on the 'bleeding edge' upgrade train and tend to dump old machines fairly regularly. I've seen a few machines that would have been bleeding edge 3 years ago (IE, still very competent, game reqs haven't jumped in that time) go for ~£60. There's a trick to that - they just want to get rid of the machine, and if they charge more than £65 the rag charges them for running the advert.

Ask to see the machine running first - if they're trying to sell a dud, they'll make excuses, if not you should be good.

Cronstintein
1st Sep 2010, 22:31
That's pretty good advice, have to look at that next time i'm in the market.

Romeo
2nd Sep 2010, 01:05
It's nice to see that you're here, Kyle. The secondary unit is now operational after six months.

Desperate. Your turn.
LOL!!!

If I could give away a deputy badge, you'd get one for that. :lol:

Ninjerk
3rd Sep 2010, 10:01
On a keyboard you have to hold down shift to run and trying to move in any direction other then a straight line is a lot harder.

Since when is pressing A or D difficult?



The Xbox controler has 16 buttons on it. 4 shoulder, 4 face, 8 on the hat switch. A keyboard may have a lot of buttons on it, but when your using one hand you really can only get to about 11 that's not counting the WASD, but the big problem with keyboards is you can only press 3 keys at a time before it locks up.

And consoles have K&M support, but no one makes games that use them simply because the control er is better.

I count at least 14 buttons right around my WASD setup that I would use frequently playing WoW. Also, Shift, Ctrl, and their union would like to have a word with you as well.

mad825
3rd Sep 2010, 10:23
On a keyboard you have to hold down shift to run and trying to move in any direction other then a straight line is a lot harder.

it's called:using a macro.
have you ever heard of one? you can either get a third-party program or you can buy a decent keyboard with it's own macro functions+extra keys

moving other than a "straight line" isn't hard either however I supposed it can be agreed that there's not much as flexibility other than using the mouse in conjunction but then again who needs that?

dixieflatline
3rd Sep 2010, 17:42
The Fallout forums do not represent all gamers. Much like this forum, many of them *****ed and moaned about the proverbial rape of their franchise and damned it from the start. Low and behold, the game was actually decent and sold very well. Still they complained. Hardcore fans of the original are stuck in a one-track mindset and won't budge one bit in their opinions. That's just the way it is.

For everyone else who has a little more to worry about in life, they'll spend their money on what they feel is worth it. Supporting a game or a developer out of fear that they might stop releasing a particular franchise just does not represent the real world out of these forums, sorry. If it did, Alan Wake might have actually sold well.

Whoa hold up. Fallout 3 was pretty good as RPGs go but it was quite inferior to Fallout 1 /2 . The people complaining on those forums actually turned out to be right on. Fallout 3 had nothing on Fallout 1/2. I didn't even finish Fallout 3 myself. I got bored with it half-way through. Fallout 1/2 were two of the best rpgs ever made IMHO. Certainly in the top 5 best computer rpgs anyways.

Maybe its just because I haven't slept for 28 hours at the moment, but I don't get what you are saying about Alan Wake. Alan Wake was planned to be a flagship game to bring in DX10 . Eventually MS cancelled though (personally believe that they did so because they want to focus gaming exclusively as much as possible towards the X360 not the PC) . But ya anyways though the game wasn't released on PC so what does piracy have to do with Alan Wake?

Regarding PC piracy, it sure is a big problem. No easy answers on that one. Personally I think PC piracy could be dealt a big blow with the following simple idea: make the purchased product better than the pirated one. There are many ways of going about this. I also think there is a fairly large under-serviced market for PC games. Actual PC games designed for the PC. Mount+Blade, Sins of A Solar Empire, Civ 5, Witcher, Starcraft 2, Torchlight, etc there are many money-maker success stories on the PC. There is just so few actual decent budget PC games made for PC gamers these days. PC gamers aren't lining up to buy the latest military fps or unreal engine tps or tomb raider game or crap-designed mmo like APB or console port. Because there isn't much interest in those games. Because they aren't that interesting.

Regarding the price of PC gaming: it is overblown I think. You actually don't have to spend much to get a decent gaming computer. Especially if you know what you are doing (i.e overclocking etc) . You'd be surprised at the quality of computer you can get for like $500. Often people say you need to spend 2000 to get a good gaming machine and this is simply no longer the case.

Pretentious Old Man.
3rd Sep 2010, 18:18
Sense you talked about controllers I will go ahead and talk about them too. About the only thing you have right is with aiming. Aiming is quicker and smother with a mouse then with a stick, But they keyboard is much worse then a game pad.

Analog sticks might not be the best for aiming, but they are way better then unseeing WASD keys. You can walk or run in any direction you want with just a slight movement. On a keyboard you have to hold down shift to run and trying to move in any direction other then a straight line is a lot harder.

The Xbox controler has 16 buttons on it. 4 shoulder, 4 face, 8 on the hat switch. A keyboard may have a lot of buttons on it, but when your using one hand you really can only get to about 11 that's not counting the WASD, but the big problem with keyboards is you can only press 3 keys at a time before it locks up.

And consoles have K&M support, but no one makes games that use them simply because the control er is better.


dfhj

I just pressed those simultaneously.

fasdgh

I pressed all of those simultaneously, too.

I mean, really? It sounds to me like you're talking, no offense, from the perspective of someone who hasn't done that much serious PC gaming. It really isn't hard to access any key on the keyboard. Hidden and Dangerous 2, for example, had so many functions that it actually relied on alt and ctrl variants, as well as using all three mouse buttons. At its peak, it's still much faster than CoD.

Unless you're someone who can barely find their way around a keyboard ("where's the tilde?" syndrome), there is no way you're going to have any trouble playing quickly with a keyboard and mouse, and that's even given the much higher fps counts one gets on the PC.

Plus of course there's the classic "try playing a strategy game on a console" argument, as well as the fact that few of those 16 buttons on a controller are that easily accessible simultaneously.

luminar
3rd Sep 2010, 18:29
Unfortunately this I where I fall as well.

The older notion of a "hardcore gamer" was someone who knew software and hardware, installed his/her own upgrades, could diagnose system problems, and always had the latest tech in order to keep up with system requirements for the games. This used to be the vast majority of gamers out there, but those days have loooong since passed.

The stereotypical opposite is the "casual gamer," someone who wants to be able to put the disc in and start playing. This term has taken on a derogatory connation, especially in the age of Wii family games or cellphone/social media apps.

But I don't see anything wrong with wanting to know ahead of time that, if I purchase a game, my system will definitely be able to play it. When I buy an Xbox 360 game, I know without a doubt my system has the specs to run it, and barring extreme circumstances (red ring o' death) will run it smoothly.

I loved PC gaming when I had a computer capable of running the games, but keeping up with the latest hardware/drivers/etc became too exhausting and too expensive to continue. My current PC can barely play the original Deus, and The Nameless Mod gives it all kinds of problems.

But the biggest issue is not the limitation of the console itself, but rather the perceived limits of the audience that designers target.

I absolutely agree!

Fluffis
3rd Sep 2010, 19:03
it's called:using a macro.
have you ever heard of one? you can either get a third-party program or you can buy a decent keyboard with it's own macro functions+extra keys

moving other than a "straight line" isn't hard either however I supposed it can be agreed that there's not much as flexibility other than using the mouse in conjunction but then again who needs that?

Also: binding RMB to going forward simplifies things greatly.

puzl
3rd Sep 2010, 20:37
Whoa hold up. Fallout 3 was pretty good as RPGs go but it was quite inferior to Fallout 1 /2 . The people complaining on those forums actually turned out to be right on. Fallout 3 had nothing on Fallout 1/2. I didn't even finish Fallout 3 myself. I got bored with it half-way through. Fallout 1/2 were two of the best rpgs ever made IMHO. Certainly in the top 5 best computer rpgs anyways.

They were very different games. I don't even see them as part of the same franchise personally, but like both equally. Fallout: New Vegas is by pretty much the same team who made the originals, yet looks to be a clone of Fallout 3. I wonder what the original fanboys think of that.


Maybe its just because I haven't slept for 28 hours at the moment, but I don't get what you are saying about Alan Wake. Alan Wake was planned to be a flagship game to bring in DX10 . Eventually MS cancelled though (personally believe that they did so because they want to focus gaming exclusively as much as possible towards the X360 not the PC) . But ya anyways though the game wasn't released on PC so what does piracy have to do with Alan Wake?

Read my post again. I never said Alan Wake has anything to do with piracy. It was in response to a previous commenter who said that people support games and developers/publishers out of fear that they won't release any more games. Remedy flat out said that Alan Wake needed to sell, but it still did poorly.

Delever
3rd Sep 2010, 20:54
... but the big problem with keyboards is you can only press 3 keys at a time before it locks up.

But we don't need to simultaneously walk both forward and backward, strafe both left and right, reload and switch weapon. More, there are certain combinations of keys that lock more or less, for example, f-g-h together locks up, while w-a-d-x-f-h does not (and add any combination of control, alt shift to that). I used to play multiplayer-only game (u2-xmp) where pretty much every key was set up to do something, and yeah, had it memorized up to muscle-memory speed. This complexity gives very different experience to consoles, and a way to play game that is certainly fun. Keyboard and mouse CAN be comfortable, precise game controllers.

Fun fact: most keyboards have built-in heartbeat detector and also can wake up a player who felt asleep. To test it, just place your forehead in the middle of the keyboard.

Delever
3rd Sep 2010, 21:44
I loved PC gaming when I had a computer capable of running the games, but keeping up with the latest hardware/drivers/etc became too exhausting and too expensive to continue. My current PC can barely play the original Deus, and The Nameless Mod gives it all kinds of problems.

I would say that it took several iterations for technology to reach "platform-on-PC" level. At first graphics cards had different APIs, then there were various iterations of fixed graphics pipeline, until developers got enough freedom with shaders. They finally allowed per-pixel control of render output with possibility to add easy fall-back mechanism (in case user's card can't run latest shaders). So shaders right now seems like good platform which is not going to be outdated soon. New shader versions add new functions to shader language and are backwards compatible.

Older graphics cards used for first version of Deus Ex allowed only per-vertex (read: per triangle) control of the output, very limited number of lights, very crude ways to simultate reflections or mirrors. Developing game to allow it to run on this previous platform is like... developing for another platform. Since DirectX 10, Microsoft removed support for this platform ("fixed-function-pipeline") in favour of complete control over the whole scene. First games which ran on DX10 did not differ between DX9 and DX10 much precisely because developers were using exactly the same shaders in both (except maybe for few new special objects or optimizations).

Shader is a small program that calculates the color of single pixel for an object based on the data developer chooses to pass to it (point on object position, light position, light direction, and anything else). The beauty of it is that since this basic way of doing things exists, developers can do whatever they like with a shader, pass and retrieve whatever data they want. API and video card developers can add new ways to pass data and new functions to speed up data manipulations, but basic structure remains the same. That greatly simplifies development, because all current generation consoles use shaders too.

More so, shaders are becomming standard way of doing 3D graphics. New WebGL specification does not have support for built-in 3D acceleration in browsers without shaders. So if you would ever want to use that in the future, you would need better graphics card.

By seeking to improve 3D technology, developers haven't simply built a new platform: they built platform for improving platform. That's what is exciting about it. I expect next generation consoles to run older games with no emulation - because of this!

Donvermicelli
3rd Sep 2010, 22:04
So you want people to make games exclusively for the PC. I guess all the RTS and other PC only games don't count then? The only thing I can ask is why? There is only one thing PC can do that consoles cant do and that is moding.

Now if you just want game makers to take risks and make inventive new game, don't worry they do that.

And how do you think DX1 lived THIS long? Sure it was one hell of a game, it was brilliant but besides all of that big mods like The Nameless Mod for instance kept people occupied too.

Don't you find it funny that old games like Half-life 1, StarWars Jedi Knight and Deusex (all on pc!) despite their age are still actively being palyed? Because of mods, people love it that when the producers fail to fufil every desire they want (not saying they have to) that they can still do it themselves. Their own input into a game that they already love for being a: long b: difficult c: immersive d: non-mainstraim where it's actually something cool when you finished that game.

Half-life1 produced: Counter-strike that later turned out to be so successful that Valve BOUGHT it.
SW:JK: produced: countless mods that are note worthy, too much to list even guess MovieBattlesII will do.
DX1: hmm let met see it was on pc right? this not only meant it had larger levels and more detail than the ps2 version but also it had multilayer added, and numerous mods such as TheNamelessMod or HotelCarone.


That aside I think the main problem is that Developers are trying too hard to sell, instead if they tried the same thing developers did in the past: making games for a set audience and making it so detailed that they love it the fans themselves will promote it so badly that you will go over the estimated sales, heck you might even win a game of the year award or two. Also producing quality games is the best way to counter piracy, the whole reason piracy became 'mainstream' if I may call it that is because consumers started to become reluctant to spend their money on games that would only disappoint them two hours later.(MaffiaII for example seems like the intro of MaffiaI but whatever, it sold right? think again sales could have been higher.) This is something the industry should really think about because it's them throwing their own profits out the window. See what EA did to the C&C franchise, think I said enough with that.

RandomJunkie
3rd Sep 2010, 22:13
I'm not a programmer, but isn't it harder to create mod on these new games, with the advanced graphic engine ?

Delever
4th Sep 2010, 00:59
I'm not a programmer, but isn't it harder to create mod on these new games, with the advanced graphic engine ?

If in both cases developers released modding tools, no. It is harder to create new quality content which is comparable to released game.

Since Eidos is not releasing modding tools, I guess we will have to make crappy ones ourselves :P

pringlepower
4th Sep 2010, 01:22
If in both cases developers released modding tools, no. It is harder to create new quality content which is comparable to released game.

Since Eidos is not releasing modding tools, I guess we will have to make crappy ones ourselves :P

Not sure if GTA IV released mod tools, but someone recently modded the game into first-person.

nomotog
4th Sep 2010, 03:54
dfhj

I just pressed those simultaneously.

fasdgh

I pressed all of those simultaneously, too.

I mean, really? It sounds to me like you're talking, no offense, from the perspective of someone who hasn't done that much serious PC gaming. It really isn't hard to access any key on the keyboard. Hidden and Dangerous 2, for example, had so many functions that it actually relied on alt and ctrl variants, as well as using all three mouse buttons. At its peak, it's still much faster than CoD.

Unless you're someone who can barely find their way around a keyboard ("where's the tilde?" syndrome), there is no way you're going to have any trouble playing quickly with a keyboard and mouse, and that's even given the much higher fps counts one gets on the PC.

Plus of course there's the classic "try playing a strategy game on a console" argument, as well as the fact that few of those 16 buttons on a controller are that easily accessible simultaneously.



You can press 9 of thous buttons all at the same time. It's easy to get all four shoulder buttons face buttons are a tad harder and you can only do one hat button at a time. Some games even make you do it too.

I have played a lot of games on PC and a lot on console. I find it much easier to use a controller. To give an example trying to move back and to the right and reload all at the same time. On a controller that's easy as pie you pull the sick back and to the right well pressing your reload button, but on the PC you have to hold the back key and the right key taking up two fingers and then the reload key uses the same finger as the move right key. Even worse if you want to sprint well pulling off this move.

They have made RTS for console "Universe at war" plays better on the console then on the computer. So it can be done.

Some games are easier to control with mouse some are easier to control with controller. Off the top of my head I'll throw out "mirror's edge", or any fighting game.

mad825
4th Sep 2010, 07:01
I have played a lot of games on PC and a lot on console. I find it much easier to use a controller. To give an example trying to move back and to the right and reload all at the same time. On a controller that's easy as pie you pull the sick back and to the right well pressing your reload button, but on the PC you have to hold the back key and the right key taking up two fingers and then the reload key uses the same finger as the move right key. Even worse if you want to sprint well pulling off this move.

again.....macros......


Also if you are having trouble using the default layout then I suggest you change them to your suitability....it really isn't that hard you know.

Donvermicelli
4th Sep 2010, 09:04
If in both cases developers released modding tools, no. It is harder to create new quality content which is comparable to released game.

Since Eidos is not releasing modding tools, I guess we will have to make crappy ones ourselves :P

Again a big marketing mistake, because all the people who feel extremely let down by the regen system will probably still buy it if modding tools are released. Why? they will simply turn the regen off and place medpacks around. This wouldn't cost the industry a single dollar and would pull a lot more people.

Fluffis
4th Sep 2010, 09:19
I have played a lot of games on PC and a lot on console. I find it much easier to use a controller. To give an example trying to move back and to the right and reload all at the same time. On a controller that's easy as pie you pull the sick back and to the right well pressing your reload button, but on the PC you have to hold the back key and the right key taking up two fingers and then the reload key uses the same finger as the move right key. Even worse if you want to sprint well pulling off this move.


Like I recommended earlier: try RMB-A-S-D, and remap reload to W. Just try it. I've used it for about 15 years. I can pull off the kind of move you describe perfectly, while aiming to take the next shot. Without using macros.

As long as you can remap buttons, do it. The default WASD is a good starting place, but find a setup that works for you, like mad825 wrote.

The Monochrome Man
6th Sep 2010, 15:04
...but on the PC you have to hold the back key and the right key taking up two fingers and then the reload key uses the same finger as the move right key. Even worse if you want to sprint well pulling off this move.

This sounds like bad controller bindings, rather than a limitation on the controllers. Just move reload off 'r' and to a key you can hit with your thumb.

Bear in mind that I'm using a regular keyboard with the two-row, three-column page keys block and cursor nest instead of the 'condensed' versions some keyboards use.

Movement is on the cursor keys. Back and right is two keys, but can be be activated with one finger. Keypad 0 and 1 for crouch and jump, right CTRL and shift for walk and sprint respectively. Delete and page down for lean left/right, with end and return being used for activations, collections, and so on as the game dictates. typically, I'll have weapon cycle on the insert/page up keys and scope doubled up on home and keypad 4.

It takes a little practice (any control setup does), but working like this you can reach all of the controls you'll realistically be using with one hand.

On the mouse, I'd have fire/sec fire as lmb/rmb respectively If there's no sec-fire, I'll have jump bound on the RMB. Reload is mb3 (click the mousewheel), with scroll up/down being reserved for zoom levels on scoped weapons. buttons 4 and 5 (side buttons) are normally a second binding for weapons scrolling - I don't have that on the mousewheel as I sometimes 'scroll' when reloading. 'Activate' can be put on scroll down as a 'pull' action, as even if I trigger it accidentally when reloading, it's extremely unlikely that there's going to be something there for it to activate against anyway.

The keyboards about a foot to my left as I play.

So, sprinting back right diagonal whilst aiming, reloading, and jumping at the same time?
Thumb between the back and right keys, index finger on keypad 1, pinky on shift. Right index or ring finger on mouse3, mouse under motion.




The trick with keyboards is that there's a lot of freedom to experiment with the layouts to find one that works for you. You can see just reading the suggestions that other people have come up with that there's a lot of different solutions to the issue you're describing. Give them a try and see what works best for you. :)


Edit : I strongly recommend having reload on mb3 anyway. It's one of those keys that you're constantly using, and logically you can't reload *and* fire at the same time, so having it paired with your fire controls is both logical and intuitive.

tombnews11
6th Sep 2010, 15:16
Congrats Coyotegrey...

Hope to talk to you soon on DX:HR ;-)

Greets,
Newsdesk Deus Ex Central

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Sep 2010, 15:19
LOL!!!

If I could give away a deputy badge, you'd get one for that. :lol:

Your Kind words are enough for me.

puzl
6th Sep 2010, 21:53
Dunno about you guys, but using the standard WASD setup for movement, I always found it easier to use the CAPSLOCK key for running/walking toggle. Shift was just a little too far down for my wedding finger to reach comfortably! My pinky sits comfy over ctrl and my index can easily reach E, R and F, usually for the key weapon binds.

Romeo
7th Sep 2010, 03:27
Your Kind words are enough for me.
I do this job for the gun and the (Kind words) badge. Some people respect the (Kind words) badge, but everyone respects the gun.

nomotog
7th Sep 2010, 17:46
Thanks for your advice on getting a keyboard to work. I am planing to try RMB-A-S-D next time i play fallout 3. I bought it on PC so i could play mods.

You all gave good ways of performing a reload retreat on a keyboard. Marcros, Switching the keys, Learning to play, are all good workarounds, but on a controller it just works. You don't need macros, you don't need to change the buttons around and you don't need to learn finger yoga. You just pull back on the control stick and press the reload button.

PenguinsFriend
8th Sep 2010, 19:41
Oh, hi.

My name is Kyle Stallock. I'm very happy to announce I'm the new community manager at Eidos Montreal...

Hi Kyle and welcome.

Quick question for you, why does EM hate us? We are the official forum and they ignore us to a very large degree. Is it because we demand that the new DX represent all that we loved about the original without selling out to the xbox simplistic button mashing crowd?

Just curios.

Thanks!

Lady_Of_The_Vine
8th Sep 2010, 22:31
Hi Kyle and welcome.

Quick question for you, why does EM hate us? We are the official forum and they ignore us to a very large degree. Is it because we demand that the new DX represent all that we loved about the original without selling out to the xbox simplistic button mashing crowd?

Just curios.

Thanks!


If this post stems from genuine 'curiosity', I'm worried for you.
Stop trying to flame by hating on consoles. If you wish to continue posting like this, be prepared to accept the consequences.

ricwhite
9th Sep 2010, 02:41
Welcome Kyle,

Personally, I'm very happy with what I'm seeing with DX:HR. I think the direction it's going is very positive for the most part. I think the problem with releasing too much information and gameplay footage is spoilage. I think releasing too many images and too much footage will lessen the impact and awe of the game when finally played. I know there are a lot of people clamoring for more and more information, but I think that needs to be balanced with protecting the plot. So, I would be in favor of releasing very LIMITED footage and screenshots even if that results in a backlash of criticism from those hungry to get the most info as they can. Sporadic, well-placed, limited teaser videos and images would actually build anticipation far greater than a wholesale release of information.

As a fan, I'm trying to be patient and let the time ease by without engaging in an information feeding frenzy. Forums seem to feed off of every image and video released and the speculation and opinions run so wild that it borders on insanity. I would rather that EM take a slow, limited, and a very deliberate and focused approach to releasing information than to cave to the pressure to release extensive details of the game. Kyle, I hope you will keep confidential any element of the game that might be considered spoilers no matter how much people here pressure you for information.

Sorry if this opinion runs counter to many on this forum.

JCpies
9th Sep 2010, 05:49
Hi Kyle and welcome.

Quick question for you, why does EM hate us? We are the official forum and they ignore us to a very large degree. Is it because we demand that the new DX represent all that we loved about the original without selling out to the xbox simplistic button mashing crowd?

Just curios.

Thanks!

I don't think they would listen anyway. It's rare a game company doesn't, I'm just pleased they presented us with some cool moderators.

Coyotegrey
9th Sep 2010, 13:24
Welcome Kyle,

Personally, I'm very happy with what I'm seeing with DX:HR. I think the direction it's going is very positive for the most part. I think the problem with releasing too much information and gameplay footage is spoilage. I think releasing too many images and too much footage will lessen the impact and awe of the game when finally played. I know there are a lot of people clamoring for more and more information, but I think that needs to be balanced with protecting the plot. So, I would be in favor of releasing very LIMITED footage and screenshots even if that results in a backlash of criticism from those hungry to get the most info as they can. Sporadic, well-placed, limited teaser videos and images would actually build anticipation far greater than a wholesale release of information.

As a fan, I'm trying to be patient and let the time ease by without engaging in an information feeding frenzy. Forums seem to feed off of every image and video released and the speculation and opinions run so wild that it borders on insanity. I would rather that EM take a slow, limited, and a very deliberate and focused approach to releasing information than to cave to the pressure to release extensive details of the game. Kyle, I hope you will keep confidential any element of the game that might be considered spoilers no matter how much people here pressure you for information.

Sorry if this opinion runs counter to many on this forum.

It sounds like the two of us could talk for hours about seeing a trailer, whether it be movie or game, and thinking we've seen too much of the movie.

The story and "fresh" experience of playing a game are extremely important to me. I think I wrote an article about this once; if I dig it up I'll let you know...

But anyway, rest assured you're in understanding and able hands. :thumb:

PenguinsFriend
9th Sep 2010, 17:44
If this post stems from genuine 'curiosity', I'm worried for you.
Stop trying to flame by hating on consoles. If you wish to continue posting like this, be prepared to accept the consequences.

I'm not trying to "flame" by hating on consoles. The last I checked we were entitled to ask questions and mine does not breach TOS. What I asked is no worse than any other "negative" post in here and I am actually hoping for a genuine response.

Hopefully I'll get a response from the person my question is addressed at, if not, I'll continue to watch and read with ever growing fascination as DE:HR moves closer to release.

Thanks.


I don't think they would listen anyway. It's rare a game company doesn't, I'm just pleased they presented us with some cool moderators.

I live in hope :D and "yes," we do have some cool mods in here as well.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Sep 2010, 21:38
What I asked is no worse than any other "negative" post in here and I am actually hoping for a genuine response.


If you were hoping for a genuine response to questions like "why does EM hate us?" and "... selling out to the xbox simplistic button mashing crowd?" then I apologise for thinking otherwise.

Yes, there are a lot of negative posts here but they are usually in context with the topic title. Mods have agreed to be stricter when it comes to anti-console discussion as the topic was beginning to derail just about every thread and all you get to read are arguments. Still, if you think my words came across too harsh, then I apologise. In fact, it's probably better for mods just to delete without comment. So we'll do that from now on.

Pinky_Powers
9th Sep 2010, 21:47
Mods have agreed to be stricter when it comes to anti-console discussion as the topic was beginning to derail just about every thread and all you get to read are arguments.

I've often wondered at the privet conversations of Mods. :cool:

Lady_Of_The_Vine
9th Sep 2010, 21:50
I've often wondered at the privet conversations of Mods. :cool:
Cover your ears, Pinky! It's far too hard-core, even for you. :p

Pinky_Powers
9th Sep 2010, 22:02
Cover your ears, Pinky! It's far too hard-core, even for you. :p

pishaw! My core is hard, and loud, and more horrid than anything I've shown thus far.

There's a custom latch below my right lung, and from it comes a howl, wet and deranged and black as night. When it takes to the air, birds fall from the sky and small bodies of water rise two or three degrees in temperature. Once, an iguana even bared its teeth and hissed in low, pulsating tones.

An iguana goddamn it! Need I go on?

swordmasterlink
10th Sep 2010, 16:52
What a beautiful place.

AlexOfSpades
14th Sep 2010, 19:09
pishaw! My core is hard, and loud, and more horrid than anything I've shown thus far.

There's a custom latch below my right lung, and from it comes a howl, wet and deranged and black as night. When it takes to the air, birds fall from the sky and small bodies of water rise two or three degrees in temperature. Once, an iguana even bared its teeth and hissed in low, pulsating tones.

An iguana goddamn it! Need I go on?

http://mori.kanga.org.uk/pics/owls/wat.jpg

Pinky_Powers
14th Sep 2010, 19:19
Beer, mate. Mixed with Wild Turkey and vicodin. :eek:

JCpies
14th Sep 2010, 19:59
Beer, mate. Mixed with Wild Turkey and vicodin. :eek:

Pinky, are you not thinking what I'm not thinking?