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Slack
24th Aug 2010, 21:16
Today a commom product is made, tomorrow it will be exchanged for any new version.
Today a piece of art is made, it will be remembered forever.
Think about it Dev's.
http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/user/4/47782-152954-DeusEx1jpeg-noscale.jpg

Fluffis
24th Aug 2010, 21:18
Amen, brother. Amen.

pha
24th Aug 2010, 21:18
They know and they don't care.

Shralla
24th Aug 2010, 21:21
Blah blah, man we have more Internet psychics here than I've ever seen before.

Slack
24th Aug 2010, 21:27
Ok, lets just ignore the trolls and be happy =)

WildcatPhoenix
24th Aug 2010, 21:33
Ok, lets just ignore the trolls and be happy =)

Does somebody with 22 total posts get to complain about "trolling?" :p

j/k...sort of.

Pinky_Powers
24th Aug 2010, 21:49
Does somebody with 22 total posts get to complain about "trolling?" :p

j/k...sort of.

lol. :thumb:

Dead-Eye
25th Aug 2010, 02:39
Actually I highly doubt anyone here will reinstall Deus Ex just because someone mentions it.

Also Video Games being made for the sake of the art died a long time ago. It's all about DLC, Pre-orders, sequels and whatever else sells. I think you will need to wait until capitalism collapses and society realizes how far the stick is up it's *** before games will be made for the art again.

Rindill the Red
25th Aug 2010, 02:48
Actually I highly doubt anyone here will reinstall Deus Ex whenever someone mentions it.

Also Video Games being made for the sake of the art died a long time ago. It's all about DLC, Pre-orders, sequels and whatever else sells. I think you will need to wait until capitalism collapses and society realizes how far the stick was up it's A** before games will be made for the art again.

No one reinstalls it because we just have it perpetually installed... twice... in my case. I've actually got three hard drives and it's installed on two of them. One is the steam version, the other is my old store bought version with a bunch of mods... HDTP, ENB, etc.

Video games are just such a large and expensive endeavor, you aren't going to find them being done "solely" for the art of it because that's not a sustainable practice.

What we need is a rich video game savior to come in and "sponsor" video games made for the art of it... sort of like old medieval patrons... I suggest Valve and Activision come together to fund a non-profit "Video Game Art" project that gives grants and support to video game designers with risky visionary ideas.

Or, we need to normalize and reduce costs by switching to my "starta" game development economic structure....
or both.

beastrn
25th Aug 2010, 02:50
Also Video Games being made for the sake of the art died a long time ago. It's all about DLC, Pre-orders, sequels and whatever else sells. I think you will need to wait until capitalism collapses and society realizes how far the stick is up it's *** before games will be made for the art again.

Thank you captain obvious. It's not like that's the entire point or anything

Slack
25th Aug 2010, 16:41
Actually I highly doubt anyone here will reinstall Deus Ex just because someone mentions it.

Also Video Games being made for the sake of the art died a long time ago. It's all about DLC, Pre-orders, sequels and whatever else sells. I think you will need to wait until capitalism collapses and society realizes how far the stick is up it's *** before games will be made for the art again.

Contrary to what you say, art in the games is gaining more strength. A classic example is the game "the path" which is the authentic ART GAME that is kind of a new game. Obviously Deus Ex is not ONLY game art, but it is a trading style that is strongly influenced by the gender[game art]. Think about it;)

Nyysjan
25th Aug 2010, 16:43
Actually I highly doubt anyone here will reinstall Deus Ex just because someone mentions it.

Also Video Games being made for the sake of the art died a long time ago. It's all about DLC, Pre-orders, sequels and whatever else sells. I think you will need to wait until capitalism collapses and society realizes how far the stick is up it's *** before games will be made for the art again.

I did, yesterday, and it's awesome.

nomotog
25th Aug 2010, 16:49
DX was art? OK not to say that it was a bad game or anything, but no It was not art. Some games can be thought of as art and I guess you can think of every game as art if you want, but DX was not any more arty then any other game.

Slack
25th Aug 2010, 16:52
I don't know nomotog.... for me DX is art... you know, in my conception, its art because it forces us to think in some serious questions in a different manner.

Pretentious Old Man.
25th Aug 2010, 16:54
Slack, you are made of win.

nomotog
25th Aug 2010, 17:03
Getting into an art debate is no doubt a bad idea, but I am wondering what questions your referring to?

Slack
25th Aug 2010, 17:11
Getting into an art debate is no doubt a bad idea, but I am wondering what questions your referring to?

I can reffer to politics, for example, like: In Deus Ex 1 the corporations had more power than the government (with the gray death plague), In Deus Ex 2, the government distorted the facts (telling that JC. Denton was just a terrorist that collapsed the society). ANd many other questions like: Augmentation (that can be interpretated in present time as genetic engineering) is it a good thing? It brings more good or bad things?

I think DX is a very intelligent game in all aspects, and you?

Slaughterman
25th Aug 2010, 17:18
No doubt Deus Ex was the game that made me think the most (in terms of ideology, not like how to solve puzzles :p ). And sorry Slack, but I have Deus Ex installed at all time on my computer.

luminar
25th Aug 2010, 18:42
Deus ex is certainly art. Maybe the graphics don't meet today's standard but it's definetly beautiful art. Sound, sights, philosophy all great.

Dead-Eye
25th Aug 2010, 18:44
DX was art? OK not to say that it was a bad game or anything, but no It was not art. Some games can be thought of as art and I guess you can think of every game as art if you want, but DX was not any more arty then any other game.

As I am far too lazy to try and verbally win this battle, I challenge you to a bare knuckles fist fight. I'll just let my fists do the talking and you'll eventually come around to my point of view. :rasp:

Although, someone already pointed out the artistic side of DX. It's art the same way a good book is art. Yet in a lot of ways it's better because it's like a really good choice you're own adventure book. (something I don't believe exists.)

nomotog
25th Aug 2010, 21:11
You could make an argument for any game to be art and that all games are art, but DX is not any more art like then many of the games that come out today. There are themes running threw it of course. One that stand out on the top of my head would be the idea of separation from government and freedom, but all games have themes going threw them.

I'll pick on Bioshock 2 here because I just played it not long ago and it has a lot of deep themes and questions running threw it. The sense of self is the big one. Who is more important me or us? Should you live ugly or die beautiful. What makes a monster? These questions run all threw the game and they really make you think about them. DX doesn't really explore it's themes as much.

DX was a nice game, but to call it art and then in the next breath say that they don't make any games that are art any more rings wrong.

Edit: If we really want to talk about DX/games beign art we should make a thread on the off topic board.

Pinky_Powers
25th Aug 2010, 21:50
Edit: If we really want to talk about DX/games beign art we should make a thread on the off topic board.

Or we could just use this thread for that.

The simple reality is, if a game tells a story, has intriguing characters, plot and themes. It's just as much art as a book which possess those qualities. And so Deus Ex, and many past, present and future games are art.

And I agree about Bioshock. Despite its flaws and shortcomings, it succeeds artistically on quite a few levels.

Khaeru
25th Aug 2010, 22:00
i agree with nomotog...the cool thing about stuff like DE is exploring the posthuman through science fiction, but in the end it's just a game, though it can mean much for sci-fi and cyberpunk fans. Too bad there are not many games like DE

Slack
26th Aug 2010, 02:54
Or we could just use this thread for that.

The simple reality is, if a game tells a story, has intriguing characters, plot and themes. It's just as much art as a book which possess those qualities. And so Deus Ex, and many past, present and future games are art.

And I agree about Bioshock. Despite its flaws and shortcomings, it succeeds artistically on quite a few levels.

Agreed... look my point of view guys: A [eletronic]game is the modern evolution form of the "book" like the narrative is the natural evolution of the epic tales.

We call a good game art because it presents the characteristics of delving further into issues involving himself, is what differentiates,for example, a text of a Shakespeare of the text of Stephenie Meyer (author of twilight), the depth and FORM of how the subjects are treated. Obviously there are a Good art, the mainstream art and the bad
quality art, but all are art, and in games occur same thing, all games are art, but when we refer here to DX as art we mean it has something else, he is superior in visual appearance, so its a technical criterion and he is superior in dealing with intellectual part, a abstract criterion.

JackShandy
26th Aug 2010, 05:57
... Don't you mean "Yesterday a piece of art was made?

DeusWhatever
26th Aug 2010, 06:10
Well, i wouldnt call all games art. They may be if your really kind but for me developers of mainstream-games are the computer-version of artists making an infinite number of cute "kitten" photos for his publisher ... ;)

For me an important aspect is also, that art is some form of communication, since gaming has come to a point where not the developers decide what the game will be like, and everything gets just adjusted for a maxium sales-output the art aspect is lacking. Since games are not about telling people something personal, most of them have become a simple good that is supposed to please as much people as possible for good sales while producing only the games that are "trendy" at times ...

Cronstintein
26th Aug 2010, 06:47
Well are all movies art?
All music?
All drawings?
All dramatic performances?

That criticism applies to all forms I'd say.
But some games reach the level of art, or are at least artistic. Shadow of the Colossus comes to mind. Maybe Indigo prophecy? Although it's difficult to describe why I feel that way, or what exactly separates art from a cash grab.

DeusWhatever
26th Aug 2010, 07:43
That criticism applies to all forms I'd say.
But some games reach the level of art, or are at least artistic. Shadow of the Colossus comes to mind. Maybe Indigo prophecy? Although it's difficult to describe why I feel that way, or what exactly separates art from a cash grab.

Yes, well i thought i implied that with "kitten-pictures" ^^

I think the problem is, if you call everything art, it kind of devaluates art, since from that point of view, even by using my napkin or simply signing something i would create "art". So as i said, i think art is not only about doing something, but about expressing yourself with freedom in the process of creating it.

xsamitt
26th Aug 2010, 12:36
Art,like Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.For example you may think your 300 pound girlfriend is awesome.:lmao::thumb:

Ashpolt
26th Aug 2010, 12:43
If Tracy Emin's "unmade bed" is art, then Deus Ex is art.

Xenoc
26th Aug 2010, 13:42
Art,like Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.For example you may think your 300 pound girlfriend is awesome.:lmao::thumb:

fat girls always try harder ;D

Pretentious Old Man.
26th Aug 2010, 14:28
If Tracy Emin's "unmade bed" is art, then Deus Ex is art.

Never...compare...Deus...Ex...with...that...lump...turd....

Khaeru
26th Aug 2010, 15:59
Well are all movies art?


even this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7u1vJlLFa4
notice how the airplane takes no damage from the explosion and how the airplane before the shark even touches it. Btw where' s the shark at the end of the vid?:hmm:

JCpies
26th Aug 2010, 17:06
Actually I highly doubt anyone here will reinstall Deus Ex just because someone mentions it.

Also Video Games being made for the sake of the art died a long time ago. It's all about DLC, Pre-orders, sequels and whatever else sells. I think you will need to wait until capitalism collapses and society realizes how far the stick is up it's *** before games will be made for the art again.

Hey.. Hey! Did you just say 'DEUS EX?' OMG I have to reinstall it! Oh wait it already is!

Pretentious Old Man.
26th Aug 2010, 19:29
even this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7u1vJlLFa4


Especially that. It was a cleverly subtle piece of satire on the ludicracy of Hollywood disaster movies. It is second in its genius only to "teh alienzz from teh OUTAR SPAESS!" from the Arby and Chief movie.

phlebas
26th Aug 2010, 19:59
Any creative expression utilizing some kind media should be considered art. Even a terrible corporate spawn of a game requires an army of traditional artists and writers to gain form, it's very rare to have some cover come out with a fully functioning and produced game out of his garage these days.

Now granted, some arts are a whole lot more boring than others, same with computer games.

Slack
26th Aug 2010, 20:01
Any creative expression utilizing some kind media should be considered art. Even a terrible corporate spawn of a game requires an army of traditional artists and writers to gain form, it's very rare to have some cover come out with a fully functioning and produced game out of his garage these days.

Now granted, some arts are a whole lot more boring than others, same with computer games.

I agree

Pinky_Powers
26th Aug 2010, 20:26
http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/842982636_LwDfj-L.jpg

jtr7
26th Aug 2010, 23:15
Here's a few collected talks about the art of games (in various senses of the phrase):

http://gmzzz.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/art-history-of-games/#comment-233

JackShandy
26th Aug 2010, 23:35
Art is whatever someone says is art. What you have to do is decide whether or not it's good art.

Pinky_Powers
27th Aug 2010, 02:27
Art is whatever someone says is art. What you have to do is decide whether or not it's good art.

This is also a notoriously sketchy business.

But yes. All creative works are art. Even the really poor ones. Movies, games, books, drawings and paintings... all art.

LostinTransplantation
1st Sep 2010, 21:24
If Tracy Emin's "unmade bed" is art, then Deus Ex is art.

if most things that are considered art (by pretentious know-it-alls who like to think of new ways to interpret something that is at its core very simple) are in fact art, then Deus Ex is double-art, or triple-art. ;)

tartarus_sauce
2nd Sep 2010, 07:16
In response to Tycho, some video games are art, and some just contain art. Deus Ex is art. StarCraft contains art. If a hundred artists spent five years making art, and then went and lashed all that art together into a raft to escape the island that they were marooned on for five years, the raft is not art.

Pinky_Powers
2nd Sep 2010, 07:26
the raft is not art.

Sure it is. Even if it was wrought of driftwood... if it was built with a creative intent, it is art. Doubly so since it was constructed from the ground up with art.

tartarus_sauce
2nd Sep 2010, 08:42
So an atomic bomb is also art? After all, it was made with creative intent? Also, what about things that aren't made with creative intent? Can they be art? I think Marcel Duchmap proved that things made without creative intent have the potential to become art.

I'm not arguing against the notion of "anything anyone says is art is art," because obviously that's pointless. No definitive definition of art can exist. However, I would argue that a definition of art that is as expansive as that isn't going to be productive from a philosophical/critical point of view. The more interesting question is what definition of art might lead to seeing more of the kind of art I want to see. I'd rather see the artists producing more sophisticated, integral projects, rather than just throwin away the particular perfection of their work into something that ends up being less than the sum of its parts.

Irate_Iguana
2nd Sep 2010, 08:52
So an atomic bomb is also art?

An atomic bomb can be art. Especially in the right setting. The moment of its explosion can be art. Even the devastation it leaves can be art. It would be very very horrible and inhumane, but it could be art. It all depends on the intent and meaning.

Pinky_Powers
2nd Sep 2010, 10:54
tartarus_sauce, you're going down the wrong road with this. If you want to use critique and argument to change the gaming industry for the better, don't use Art as a talking point. And please for the love of god steer clear of sentiments concerning what is and is not art.

As it stands right now, most of the rich and powerful pigf**kers of the world believe that no videogame is art. So it doesn't help for one of our own to be arguing for the other side.

lithos
2nd Sep 2010, 10:59
Today a commom product is made, tomorrow it will be exchanged for any new version.
Today a piece of art is made, it will be remembered forever.
Think about it Dev's.

Shareholders don't like to think that far ahead.

Pretentious Old Man.
2nd Sep 2010, 13:16
Shareholders don't like to think that far ahead.

I'm liking you more and more.

luminar
2nd Sep 2010, 18:26
An atomic bomb can be art. Especially in the right setting. The moment of its explosion can be art. Even the devastation it leaves can be art. It would be very very horrible and inhumane, but it could be art. It all depends on the intent and meaning.

This is correct! Megaton Exploding=artgasm!

Slack
2nd Sep 2010, 20:20
it's devastating... but beautiful (remembering that art doesn't exist just to express beautiful things in a beautiful way... =\):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7278951069225366106#

Dead-Eye
2nd Sep 2010, 21:27
Deus Ex is good art. Modern Warfare 2 is slimy art.