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Kodaemon
23rd Aug 2010, 14:40
I’m curious why they decided to introduce a third person mode, because I would not have made that call.


We decided it would be nice to allow the player, when he decides to upgrade his character for takedowns or punching through walls, to show him that happening on screen making it more spectacular and giving him a reward. From that point we were able to introduce the cover system too.

I like how he mentions "allowing" the player to go into tpp, because it's not being shoved down our throats, no siree, we're allowed to involuntarily switch to tpp every five seconds.

Also, Anfossi tells us Spector gave very positive signs to DX:HR. Really! Really he did!

http://www.totalpcgaming.com/latest-pc-news/deus-ex-designer-warren-spector-unhappy-with-deus-ex-3/

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/4080/gamescom-2010-deus-ex-team-answers-spector-query

mad825
23rd Aug 2010, 14:59
well I guess Anfossi is quick to spread the propaganda, not matter how desperate he looks.

Pinky_Powers
23rd Aug 2010, 15:05
In the end, we all have Warren Spector to blame for this $h1t. If only he'd have done ANYTHING worth while in the last ten years, we wouldn't even care about HR.

beastrn
23rd Aug 2010, 15:14
You can keep your "reward" pal. I never kept my participation awards.

DeusWhatever
23rd Aug 2010, 15:37
Normally playing trough the game should be the reward, if developers have to add lots of "rewards" for things that any1 can do its just pathetic game-design.
And im pretty shure, these "rewards" will be more annyoing than rewarding, maybe curshing a wall will look cool the first 3 times, but it will get annyoing when it gets repetitive.

For me this whole "rewards" bull**** nowadays is as if there was a certificate or a trophy all few pages in a book like "Wow you have read 5 Pages, your cool certificate". Then a "Wow you got past Page 100 Trophy".

Playing the game should be fun and rewarding, not some extras put in by the developers like "cinematic-bull****" etc.

And btw. i hardly think Warren Spector really likes the new DX since the devs are doing everything that he thinks is wrong in the gaming-business. Especially this stupid "cinematic-experience" crap.

Or, with Warren Spectors words: "If you want to make a your game a movie ... you should be making movies"

Ashpolt
23rd Aug 2010, 15:49
Wonderful. Considering the necessity of being "political" in the gaming industry (as with any industry) that's about as scathing attack as Spector could possibly unleash on this particular aspect - he's not going to out and out say "terrible idea, guys" so saying flat out that it is not a decision he would have made is pretty strong indeed. Glad to know that Warren Spector and I agree on this one. :)

P.S: Haven't read the links yet as I am at work, I look forward to scouring them for further info later.

Kodaemon
23rd Aug 2010, 15:59
Not much more there, I'm afraid. Both links are very short reads.

WildcatPhoenix
23rd Aug 2010, 16:06
Not much more there, I'm afraid. Both links are very short reads.

Well, they're basically articles written about a single quote wedged into an interview about Epic Mickey, so this might be much ado about relatively nothing.

I highly doubt Warren agrees with many of the decisions being made with DXHR, but I find it unlikely he would go into detail about his criticisms of the game, especially since it hasn't released yet (in the highly litigious corporate culture of today, it might even lead to legal trouble).

Ashpolt
23rd Aug 2010, 16:08
I highly doubt Warren agrees with many of the decisions being made with DXHR, but I find it unlikely he would go into detail about his criticisms of the game, especially since it hasn't released yet (in the highly litigious corporate culture of today, it might even lead to legal trouble).

Exactly, which is why I find it very interesting (and telling) that's he's said even as much as he has.

SageSavage
23rd Aug 2010, 16:12
Told ya.

Daeda
23rd Aug 2010, 16:13
Sorry, but if i read that article, it sounds like the site is blowing things out of proportion in order to get some hits. Warrens comments sound not like hes doubting the design choices per se, but is just pointing out that it isnt a direction he'd take. That doesnt make it a bad desicion in his opinion, just not one he saw the value in at that point. Also, the interview is unclear whether this was before or after hed watched the dx presentation. Overall, bad journalism.

Ilves
23rd Aug 2010, 16:14
"Deus Ex designer, Warren Spector, unhappy with Deus Ex 3".

Bada boom. That headline is downright false reporting. ****

SageSavage
23rd Aug 2010, 16:20
Yes, it all looks a bit like they are making too much fuzz about it but 3rd-person, de facto, is a (I'd say currently the) big issue for the majority of this community (pretty confident about this). I find it noteworthy that Spector is specifically questioning it while EM's reasoning for this feature is actually as weak as everybody made it out to be.

Jerion
23rd Aug 2010, 16:35
Looks a little...err...overdramatic.

Far as the third person thing goes though, I do have one question. In the example where Adam picks up a huge printer/copier to provide cover, how do you best show that:

a) You (the player) are holding it.
b) That it is providing protection (i.e. that bullets and whatnot are hitting it)
c) Where it can and cannot fit in the environment.

Without making it seem cheap or arcadish to the player? I'd actually like to hear Spector's thoughts on this. What would he have done?

beastrn
23rd Aug 2010, 16:39
Really though, Spector shouldn't even have an opinion on 3rd person. After all, the game isn't even out yet, right guys? There's no reason for him to say negative things about 3rd person. Someone ban him.

II J0SePh X II
23rd Aug 2010, 16:45
I'd have no problem with the whole game being set in 3rd person, it's the "press A to win" gameplay that puts me off HR. Rather than reward a player's skill or ability, it takes it away in favour of style over substance. Games like Splinter Cell: Convivtion and Assassin's Creed have both been rather hollow in the combat department and HR looks like it is going to be equally as taxing.

I don't understand why they refer to this gameplay style as rewarding, when the opposite is true imo. Perhaps it's to do with the Montreal dev community.

WildcatPhoenix
23rd Aug 2010, 16:58
Far as the third person thing goes though, I do have one question. In the example where Adam picks up a huge printer/copier to provide cover, how do you best show that:

a) You (the player) are holding it.
b) That it is providing protection (i.e. that bullets and whatnot are hitting it)
c) Where it can and cannot fit in the environment.

Without making it seem cheap or arcadish to the player? I'd actually like to hear Spector's thoughts on this. What would he have done?

What was wrong with the Deus Ex system, where you have a wireframe outline of the object being held (the same system, btw, which is apparently being used for the crates in DXHR)?

Ilves
23rd Aug 2010, 17:02
The mental image the copier bit evoked with me was that Adam flips over the (obviously near man sized) copier and goes into 3rd person cover against it, pushing it along with him as he advances through an area, but that's just me. :)

Irate_Iguana
23rd Aug 2010, 17:11
Far as the third person thing goes though, I do have one question. In the example where Adam picks up a huge printer/copier to provide cover, how do you best show that:

a) You (the player) are holding it.
b) That it is providing protection (i.e. that bullets and whatnot are hitting it)
c) Where it can and cannot fit in the environment.

Without making it seem cheap or arcadish to the player? I'd actually like to hear Spector's thoughts on this. What would he have done?

Same as the huge crates in DX? Only with the Strength aug were you able to move them. You moved up against the container and pressed the direction keys to make it go where you wanted.

DeusWhatever
23rd Aug 2010, 17:14
Looks a little...err...overdramatic.

Far as the third person thing goes though, I do have one question. In the example where Adam picks up a huge printer/copier to provide cover, how do you best show that:

Without making it seem cheap or arcadish to the player? I'd actually like to hear Spector's thoughts on this. What would he have done?

I think this one is pretty easy, if you just compare it to other things:

One of the main "problems" in games is self-awareness, so you get shot in a game, you have no clue where you got hit, maybe you can guess by the ammount of hitpoints you lost.
Still, does that mean, that it would be a good idea, to Show every hit by switching into a Third Person thats shows every hit? I think its very important to be aware auf genre and general limitations in gaming, the key is to simply avoid or bypass them without "trying too hard" to implement something that doesnt fit in ver well. And i think the important "base" in FPS-Genre is the vision, the screen is showing what the eyes of your character are seeing (which makes perfect sense, since it puts you inside the character).

I think its the wrong path to try to bypass general-genre-limitations by switching the genre sometimes. I think the best possible approaches is like in HL, still it will always look akward, so maybe the best design-decision would be to sipmly not include things that dont work well, or just bypass them with other things like, instead of picking it up, you simply kick it forward with the "use" key with your feet/hand in first person view?

Khaeru
23rd Aug 2010, 17:29
The mental image the copier bit evoked with me was that Adam flips over the (obviously near man sized) copier and goes into 3rd person cover against it, pushing it along with him as he advances through an area, but that's just me. :)

every action we are gonna do in the near future (example: open a door, take the taxi or w/e) is made in third person in our mind. So it's not just you;)

I think the real problem is not choosing between first or third person mode, but the lack of emotion both give. I mean..the "first person" mode looks like a camera moving on the soap, while the third person mode is not involving at all. But that's how i feel 'em. Ghost Recon Future Soldiers thinked about it as you can see from the demo: in some critical points when you have to hide or change cover, the camera literally follows you instead of floating in mid air. That's a good way to involve the player, it's like playing a movie and the player has the possibility to control his/her character.

Daeda
23rd Aug 2010, 17:34
Looks a little...err...overdramatic.

Far as the third person thing goes though, I do have one question. In the example where Adam picks up a huge printer/copier to provide cover, how do you best show that:

a) You (the player) are holding it.
b) That it is providing protection (i.e. that bullets and whatnot are hitting it)
c) Where it can and cannot fit in the environment.

Without making it seem cheap or arcadish to the player? I'd actually like to hear Spector's thoughts on this. What would he have done?

Let me clear that up for you, as i might've described it a bit wrongly. Once you pick up the crate, you dont actually switch into 3rd person. The copy machine gets a bit opaque so you can view through it, but it provides cover from bullets. Then, once you drop it, you can use the machine as a cover, so the game switches to 3rd person mode.

pha
23rd Aug 2010, 17:36
...making it more spectacular and giving him a reward...

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/e/eb/T2GoodOlArney-1.jpg/600px-T2GoodOlArney-1.jpg

It's a good thing Eidos had shut Warren down and EM is making this game without Warren's consent, isn't it? Or we would be stuck with a decade old boring and obsolete mechanics instead of shiny cool rewards.


Looks a little...err...overdramatic.

Far as the third person thing goes though, I do have one question. In the example where Adam picks up a huge printer/copier to provide cover, how do you best show that:

a) You (the player) are holding it.
b) That it is providing protection (i.e. that bullets and whatnot are hitting it)
c) Where it can and cannot fit in the environment.

Without making it seem cheap or arcadish to the player? I'd actually like to hear Spector's thoughts on this. What would he have done?

a) Like every other first person game where you hold objects. Make it translucent like DX1 and IW, problem solved.
b) Maybe with a short tutorial which instructs the player that holding an object will protect Jansen from frontal attacks. *shrug* Like holding a riot shield in CS, or crouching behind your turret in Borderlands (one of my favorite dumb action games in this generation). With appropriate ricochet sounds for added realism. Besides, do you need third person toggle to notice when YOU get shot, and where?
c) You have a slight idea about every object's dimension before picking it up, and a trained security guard like Jansen should know better than getting stuck in a doorsill with a Boeing 747 in his hand. Not an issue.

edit to above: Thanks for the clarification Daeda. The third person switch sounds slightly less idiotic now.

DeusWhatever
23rd Aug 2010, 17:49
in some critical points when you have to hide or change cover, the camera literally follows you instead of floating in mid air. That's a good way to involve the player, it's like playing a movie and the player has the possibility to control his/her character.

Sorry, but this concept is fail. We had the "jiggle-cam" long ago. It was either annyoing after some time, or it simply makes people vomit. Also it gets rather frustrating if the game "handicaps" your movement and your possibilities by something like that.

Or lets put it this way, while it looks nice in the beginning, its pretty annyoing pretty fast, also lots of people get some sort of motion-sickness. But well, if your on a boat ingame, you actually feel like vomiting on a boat in real life very immersive ^^

xsamitt
23rd Aug 2010, 17:52
I would rather that as far as is reasonably possible that the player not be hand held.

Khaeru
23rd Aug 2010, 18:00
Sorry, but this concept is fail. We had the "jiggle-cam" long ago. It was either annyoing after some time, or it simply makes people vomit. Also it gets rather frustrating if the game "handicaps" your movement and your possibilities by something like that.


Gears of war sprint is not annoying at all. It's a "jiggle-cam" moment all gow games have.

Farouk
23rd Aug 2010, 18:07
For me this whole "rewards" bull**** nowadays is as if there was a certificate or a trophy all few pages in a book like "Wow you have read 5 Pages, your cool certificate". Then a "Wow you got past Page 100 Trophy".

Playing the game should be fun and rewarding, not some extras put in by the developers like "cinematic-bull****" etc.


Bingo!
Here is a nice talk/lecture/presentation by Chris Hecker (the video on that page) on the whole rewards in games issue:
http://chrishecker.com/Achievements_Considered_Harmful%3F
(All in all it's a hefty 70 minutes, including him answering audience questions at the end - but worth it.)

ZakKa89
23rd Aug 2010, 18:09
Yeah Spector doesn't say he doesn't like the game. You guys are so over-dramatic, like you usually are.

xsamitt
23rd Aug 2010, 18:12
Yeah Spector doesn't say he doesn't like the game. You guys are so over-dramatic, like you usually are.

I was thinking the same thing.He only asked about one decision the team made.

Irate_Iguana
23rd Aug 2010, 18:16
Yeah Spector doesn't say he doesn't like the game. You guys are so over-dramatic, like you usually are.

There isn't a single soul alive in the mainstream game-developers world who would tell another company that their game sucked. They won't even say that they didn't particularly care for a game. If you do that expect to never work in that field again. Most criticism that other devs level against a game takes the form of "I wouldn't have necessarily done that". Now while I agree that this is a bit over-dramatic, it is also the harshest form of criticism that you will find amongst active and well-known devs.

SageSavage
23rd Aug 2010, 18:27
Except Tim Schafer, of course... (http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/706227/Tim-Schafer-Bobby-Kotick-Is-Total-Prck-.html)and Cliffy B.

K^2
23rd Aug 2010, 18:33
Warrens comments sound not like hes doubting the design choices per se, but is just pointing out that it isnt a direction he'd take
Alright. How would you say that the design decision is a bad one without getting sued?

Saying that's not how he'd done it is about as much as he can criticize it without getting into any legal uncertainty.

I have no doubt that Spector's comments should be read as "this is a bad design".

Shralla
23rd Aug 2010, 18:51
There isn't a single soul alive in the mainstream game-developers world who would tell another company that their game sucked. They won't even say that they didn't particularly care for a game. If you do that expect to never work in that field again. Most criticism that other devs level against a game takes the form of "I wouldn't have necessarily done that". Now while I agree that this is a bit over-dramatic, it is also the harshest form of criticism that you will find amongst active and well-known devs.

So what you're saying is that the gaming industry is run by a bunch of whiny ******* who can't deal with somebody else in the same field being level with them as to what they think of the product?

I bet that's not true at all, and unless you're a game developer with some years under your belt, you have no way of knowing that either.

SageSavage
23rd Aug 2010, 18:57
So, how about giving us some (any) recent examples for game developers openly criticizing or even trash talking other developer's games then? It's not like there aren't enough terrible games out there that would justify doing just that, right?

Shralla
23rd Aug 2010, 19:02
I don't think that "trash talking" is the same thing as having a civilized conversation and offering constructive criticism. And likewise, I don't recall saying that any of them have done it in the open, which is why unless you ARE a game developer, you probably don't have any idea how they act when they see each other's games and talk behind closed doors.

SageSavage
23rd Aug 2010, 19:06
But that is what this "Spector about DXHR's 3rd person" is about: asking EM a critical/sceptical question via public media. Doing so is noteworthy because it is unusal.

Daedalus Ciarán
23rd Aug 2010, 19:38
So what you're saying is that the gaming industry is run by a bunch of whiny ******* who can't deal with somebody else in the same field being level with them as to what they think of the product?

I bet that's not true at all, and unless you're a game developer with some years under your belt, you have no way of knowing that either.

According to HR and EM's various defenders on here, the only reason that they won't come on to this forum to answer questions regarding the game design is because we (ie. those critical of the game's mechanics and asthetics) would be really mean and question the logic behind their decisions. I'm going to tell you something, if they can't take criticism from a bunch of fans, they're a bunch of whiny whatever you said that was censored, who can't take criticism from individuals on the internet, let alone somebody with as much experience and clout as our dear Warren Spector.

Unless you have a different explanation for EM's absence on these forums then I'm afraid EM are exactly who you claim they aren't.

Dr_Bob
23rd Aug 2010, 19:39
The 3rd-person cover system is good, because it lets me see how much of my body is exposed.

A leaning system would be nice for the people out there, who do not wish to use the cover system.


Yeah Spector doesn't say he doesn't like the game. You guys are so over-dramatic, like you usually are.

It's clear that Eidos Montreal are clearly trying to ruin the Deus Ex franchise with a 3rd-person cover system and takedowns!!!!!!!!

SO UNCOOL!!!!!

This isn't Deus Ex!!!!

DeusWhatever
23rd Aug 2010, 19:48
The 3rd-person cover system is good, because it lets me see how much of my body is exposed.

A leaning system would be nice for the people out there, who do not wish to use the cover system.


So you lack an ability you even have in real life in games? You know your ingame-vision is your head, you see an object, you go there and you will know how much of you body will be exposed, since most of the times Cover-Objects magically are the right size ingame.

Yet if the object has a strange shape, you might see with third Person which parts of your body are covered (a thing you could do with your imagination ...), yet it wont help you since you still dont know, where are alpha maps, house does game physic work etc. so even though seeing something yourself it will give you no useful information. (as example, take the HL-AI, its bound to your vision, if you see an enemy, it can see you, if you just block your vision with a can, it wont see you, and im pretty shure, the system wont be much more complexe either. (I doubt it would even be possible to calculate the line of sight of every enemie physically correct (objects, shadows, general vision limitations, size of the object seen, movement) etc. without dropping the FPS to 0 ^^

So the only thing you get is a strange perspective with some sort of "wallhack" ... (and the "trendy", "cool", "rewarding" view ...)
(I hope we get lensflares ^^) (almost as stupid as DOF, but i guess im just too "sane" to understand the concept of illogical visual effects, yet it would totally make sense if they called "DOF" " nearsighted-simulator" that would at least make sense maybe they could call "Lensflare" "your ingame avatar doesnt have eyes he has cameras effect")

Shralla
23rd Aug 2010, 19:59
According to HR and EM's various defenders on here, the only reason that they won't come on to this forum to answer questions regarding the game design is because we (ie. those critical of the game's mechanics and asthetics) would be really mean and question the logic behind their decisions. I'm going to tell you something, if they can't take criticism from a bunch of fans, they're a bunch of whiny whatever you said that was censored, who can't take criticism from individuals on the internet, let alone somebody with as much experience and clout as our dear Warren Spector.

Unless you have a different explanation for EM's absence on these forums then I'm afraid EM are exactly who you claim they aren't.

Honestly, there's been a complete and total absence since the game has been in development. I would say it's more that they're trying to build the game they're trying to build, and they're afraid if they read too much of what we're saying, it will tempt them to start changing things, which, if you've already sat down with a solidified vision, is not something you want to happen.

But that's just one theory. They might just be whiny *******.

Ashpolt
23rd Aug 2010, 20:18
Far as the third person thing goes though, I do have one question. In the example where Adam picks up a huge printer/copier to provide cover, how do you best show that:

a) You (the player) are holding it.
b) That it is providing protection (i.e. that bullets and whatnot are hitting it)
c) Where it can and cannot fit in the environment.

Without making it seem cheap or arcadish to the player? I'd actually like to hear Spector's thoughts on this. What would he have done?

a) Same as Deus Ex: make it transparent. With your hands on it, preferably. Or hell, don't even make it transparent: if you're picking up a freaking huge item like a photocopier, expect your vision to be restricted, and plan accordingly.

b) Same as every other FPS ever. Honestly, do you really need to see bullets, in third-person, whizzing into the other side of your cover to know it's protecting you? Call me crazy (or a genius of unparalleled brilliance may be more apt in these circumstances) but knowing "my enemies are shooting directly at me and I'm not dead" gives me a pretty good idea that the cover I'm behind is working. Shocking leap of logic there, I know.

c) This, again, should be obvious. And moreover, this isn't going to be any more precise in third person: knowing whether it can fit into a certain sized hole or not is only going to be useful if the physics system is good enough to handle it (very possible) and if you're able to manouevere it precisely, which isn't very likely with any control system or perspective, but is somewhat more likely in first person. Unless it's all scripted, that is - "object x can only be put down at places y and z" - but I think we can all agree that we hope that's not the case, and as much as EM have cocked some stuff up, I doubt they'd be stupid enough to do that.


Yeah Spector doesn't say he doesn't like the game. You guys are so over-dramatic, like you usually are.


I was thinking the same thing.He only asked about one decision the team made.

It honestly amazes me at how little some of the people on this forum are capable of reading between the lines. As numerous people (myself included) have said, this is about as damning a criticism as Warren Spector could have possibly made without drawing some serious negative press to himself.

And no, he doesn't say he doesn't like the game as a whole. No-one is claiming he did. He's just saying that he disagrees with the decision to put in the third person parts. Most of us on here are on much the same page - we're not saying the game as a whole will be terrible, just that it's got a few really stupid flaws which will (for some of us) detract from what could otherwise have been a great title.

Pretentious Old Man.
23rd Aug 2010, 20:57
Good call, EM. After all, what does Warren Spector know about making a Deus Ex game? That would be like having Bob Kotick produce a Call of Duty game. Madness?


This is Montreal!!!

pha
23rd Aug 2010, 21:18
Yeah Spector doesn't say he doesn't like the game. You guys are so over-dramatic, like you usually are.

:D

It's not common to see someone like WS to say that he is flat out against a certain game feature. There are millions of horrible games but you can't see someone of Warren's caliber to criticize or thrash them, at least before they are released. Nobody expected him to thrash the whole game, but it should give you a brief idea about his thoughts when he goes as far to say "I wouldn't do that." about one of its main, mandatory, can't-be-toggled-off features EM is so cocky about.

K^2
23rd Aug 2010, 21:21
So what you're saying is that the gaming industry is run by a bunch of whiny ******* who can't deal with somebody else in the same field being level with them as to what they think of the product?
Exactly. That is, the developers themselves, for the most part, are very reasonable. They get a bit upset when somebody trashes their work for no good reason, but they appreciate honest criticism.

Unfortunately, they are also people with very little say in the process. They have suits in marketing setting a lot of absurd goals and steering design into maximizing target demographic. They don't care, personally, who said what, but they know that a well-known developer criticizing product is bad for sales, so they have a bunch of lawyers trained to send cease and desist letters on slightest provocation.

And yes, I'm overgeneralizing and exaggerating just a bit, but only to make the point clearer. All of these dynamics really are there.

WildcatPhoenix
23rd Aug 2010, 21:51
Unfortunately, they are also people with very little say in the process. They have suits in marketing setting a lot of absurd goals and steering design into maximizing target demographic. They don't care, personally, who said what, but they know that a well-known developer criticizing product is bad for sales, so they have a bunch of lawyers trained to send cease and desist letters on slightest provocation.


Precisely. Warren wouldn't restrain his comments out of concern for the oh-so-sensitive developers' feelings; he would do it to avoid the potential sales damage to EM, which is all that matters in a business environment. :hmm:

Jerion
23rd Aug 2010, 21:56
According to HR and EM's various defenders on here, the only reason that they won't come on to this forum to answer questions regarding the game design is because we (ie. those critical of the game's mechanics and asthetics) would be really mean and question the logic behind their decisions. I'm going to tell you something, if they can't take criticism from a bunch of fans, they're a bunch of whiny whatever you said that was censored, who can't take criticism from individuals on the internet, let alone somebody with as much experience and clout as our dear Warren Spector.

Unless you have a different explanation for EM's absence on these forums then I'm afraid EM are exactly who you claim they aren't.

Well actually I do. I know people at EM. People on the inside. :cool:


It's company policy to avoid having the actual developers come on the forum (or much any forum, for that matter) to discuss the game. Nothing to do with being thin-skinned.

Don't ask me why.

WildcatPhoenix
23rd Aug 2010, 22:01
It's company policy to avoid having the actual developers come on the forum (or much any forum, for that matter) to discuss the game. Nothing to do with being thin-skinned.

Don't ask me why.

Sometimes it boggles the mind.

I try to be level-headed in my criticism of DXHR. I try to accept that some people want something different from a game than I do.

But I can't help but feel like Eidos Montreal has fumbled the marketing campaign for this franchise. Brutally. I seriously cannot understand the "logic" behind this. Can anyone offer an explanation?

DeusWhatever
23rd Aug 2010, 22:02
Well actually I do. I know people at EM. People on the inside. :cool:
Don't ask me why.

Well than the reason behind this is pretty obvious.
For some strange reason they seem to think that marketing for this games work best if they only release small portions themselfes and have full control, which was the reason why they desperatly tried to ban the leaked footage, yet every1 should know these days that anything that is on the internet, will stay there no mather what you do.

Still this is just the new ... gaming-industry, where people are in leading-positions that have no clue about gaming. They seem to think in paterns like the movie industr, but this is just wrong for gaming. Having a personal relationship between gamers and developers is a good thing, aswell as giving out more information is a good thing. But i guess its hard for people to understand that even though its pretty obvious that the devolopers with the best image are those who relate with their gamers.

But i guess thats hard nowadays where companies seem to see consumers as enemies or as some sort of dangerous yet retarded flock of sheeps.

Jerion
23rd Aug 2010, 22:13
I agree! Especially in this case (mostly since I'm personally involved) I think Dev-Community interaction would be an excellent thing.

mad825
23rd Aug 2010, 23:57
But I can't help but feel like Eidos Montreal has fumbled the marketing campaign for this franchise. Brutally. I seriously cannot understand the "logic" behind this. Can anyone offer an explanation?

EM are not behind the marketing campaign because they are only the Developers, nothing more. It's SE who are responsible for the marketing, including market research and all aspects of advertising,

Pinky_Powers
24th Aug 2010, 00:06
I try to be level-headed in my criticism of DXHR.

:confused:

Since when??!

;)

Gordon_Shea
24th Aug 2010, 00:47
Remind me why we should care what Warren Spector thinks? Sure, he worked on the first game. But what's he done lately? What's he done that suggests that it was anything more than a fluke?

He worked on the weaker System Shock games and worked under the overpowering presence of Richard Garriott for a while. So what? And Epic Mickey? ****, that game looks to be one of the worst examples of faux freedom ever. You can use paint to alter levels drastically! By... making predefined platforms appear.

Yeah. That's... really interesting Warren. :rolleyes:

Fluffis
24th Aug 2010, 01:17
Remind me why we should care what Warren Spector thinks? Sure, he worked on the first game. But what's he done lately? What's he done that suggests that it was anything more than a fluke?

He worked on the weaker System Shock games and worked under the overpowering presence of Richard Garriott for a while. So what? And Epic Mickey? ****, that game looks to be one of the worst examples of faux freedom ever. You can use paint to alter levels drastically! By... making predefined platforms appear.

Yeah. That's... really interesting Warren. :rolleyes:

He's a guy who worked on Deus Ex, DX: Invisible War, System Shock, Thief, Thief: DS and Ultima Underworld I & II. He founded Looking Glass Studios, Austin. He worked with Origin. He's worked in the gaming industry for over 20 years, and before that he helped design RPG:s for TSR.

I don't know about you, but I consider that a résumé to respect.

I definitely care what he thinks, because with everything he has achieved it shows that he still cares about a particular baby of his, called Deus Ex.

Gordon_Shea
24th Aug 2010, 01:30
He's a guy who worked on Deus Ex, DX: Invisible War, System Shock, Thief, Thief: DS and Ultima Underworld I & II. He founded Looking Glass Studios, Austin. He worked with Origin. He's worked in the gaming industry for over 20 years, and before that he helped design RPG:s for TSR.

I don't know about you, but I consider that a résumé to respect.

I definitely care what he thinks, because with everything he has achieved it shows that he still cares about a particular baby of his, called Deus Ex.

Invisible War was terrible. System shock, while good, was more than ten years ago, and the sequel which he didn't work on was way better. Deadly Shadows was disappointing other than the parts that were made by Jordan Thomas. Origin, again, mostly Lord British's show, and TSR?

Are you seriously going to try and say that TSR was producing quality material near the end?

All I see in his resume is a lot of old games he was a relatively minor worker on, some mediocre tabletop material, Deus Ex, and a bunch of disappointing sequels. Oh! And Epic Mickey. Which like I said, looks to be one of the biggest and most laughable exercises in Faux Freedom ever.

Still don't get what's so impressive about Spector. :confused:

Fluffis
24th Aug 2010, 01:52
Invisible War was terrible. System shock, while good, was more than ten years ago, and the sequel which he didn't work on was way better. Deadly Shadows was disappointing other than the parts that were made by Jordan Thomas. Origin, again, mostly Lord British's show, and TSR?

Are you seriously going to try and say that TSR was producing quality material near the end?

All I see in his resume is a lot of old games he was a relatively minor worker on, some mediocre tabletop material, Deus Ex, and a bunch of disappointing sequels. Oh! And Epic Mickey. Which like I said, looks to be one of the biggest and most laughable exercises in Faux Freedom ever.

Still don't get what's so impressive about Spector. :confused:

Okay, let's just say that I'd most likely take his opinions over yours any day, then... I know what he's done, and I respect most of it, if not all, enough to value his opinions.

Added to that, he shows that he still cares enough about Deus Ex to publicly question the design choices of the company that is making a sequel. There is significant risk in doing that, hence the careful choice of words. That should be enough for any fan, imho.

beastrn
24th Aug 2010, 02:39
To a small degree I agree with Gordon. There is a little sense of 'what has he done lately'.

But I'm going to assume the reason he hasn't dedicated the past 10 years to the games we love is because they would go completely unappreciated and cost him and the companies he works for millions of dollars, due to the industry being where it is with console idiots having complete control.

If I were him I can't say I wouldn't be a bit weary of making actual good games as well.

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 02:53
To a small degree I agree with Gordon. There is a little sense of 'what has he done lately'.

But I'm going to assume the reason he hasn't dedicated the past 10 years to the games we love is because they would go completely unappreciated and cost him and the companies he works for millions of dollars, due to the industry being where it is... that being, console idiots being in complete control.

If I were him I can't say I wouldn't be a bit weary of making actual good games as well.

I've said it before and I'll say it now. Console's don't equal dumb. Casual gamers like joe from the office who played rock band once at an office party and now think's he's a gamer, do. (people like this have every right to game but the entire market is directed at them and that is no good.) I acknowledge the controlers limit design sometimes but good game design can make excellent use of a gamepad and thus not take away from the experience.

Pinky_Powers
24th Aug 2010, 02:58
I've said it before and I'll say it now. Console's don't equal dumb. Casual gamers like joe from the office who played rock band once at an office party and now think's he's a gamer, do. (people like this have every right to game but the entire market is directed at them and that is no good.) I acknowledge the controlers limit design sometimes but good game design can make excellent use of a gamepad and thus not take away from the experience.

You really mustn't quote him. I have him on my Ignore List, but I can still see a post when you quote it. :(

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 03:04
You really mustn't quote him. I have him on my Ignore List, but I can still see a post when you quote it. :(

Apologies freind! I think I overuse that feature anyway so now I shall go the exact opposite route and never use it again! (Yeah for overeactions!)

beastrn
24th Aug 2010, 03:13
I've said it before and I'll say it now. Console's don't equal dumb. Casual gamers like joe from the office who played rock band once at an office party and now think's he's a gamer, do. (people like this have every right to game but the entire market is directed at them and that is no good.) I acknowledge the controlers limit design sometimes but good game design can make excellent use of a gamepad and thus not take away from the experience.

Relax. I didn't say anything about consoles. I said 'console idiots'. The money waving masses that make up for 90% of the sales in this era. The ape-like people that have driven game design into a ditch of idiocy until the foreseeable future.

And It's Pinky's loss - being pampered in his gaming life for so long he is quite timid around heated debate. To the point that he will block anyone that poses any threat to his pseudo-intelligence. Don't be that guy.

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 03:15
Ah, well then I agree! Well I will try and stay out of this personal fued I prefer to stay neutral until the perfect oppurtunity to take a side. (See riddick.)

Kodaemon
24th Aug 2010, 03:47
EM are not behind the marketing campaign because they are only the Developers, nothing more. It's SE who are responsible for the marketing, including market research and all aspects of advertising,

...except it worked just the same before the buyout. So SE are just continuing this line.

Isterio
24th Aug 2010, 04:03
I would like to hear the reasons from Mr. S. Why wouldn't he have chosen the 3rd person view?

I do agree with him, but maybe he has some more reasons, I didn't think of yet. It is always easy to criticize without giving an explanation..

Anyway, if it wasn't for the cover system, the 3rd person view might be acceptable ("only" for takedowns and wall punch and climbing and carrying). I didn't really like the cover system and autogen health system in ME2. It's action for dummies = consoles. But it sounds like they are going to clone it.

Xenoc
24th Aug 2010, 09:07
I personally think seeing the takedown or punching through the wall in 1st person would be far more impressive and immersive than 3rd person... Way to go and jump on the 3rd person bandwagon EM and **** over the loyal DX fans!!! :(

JackShandy
24th Aug 2010, 09:20
I'm sorry, you've misnamed the thread.

"Spector expresses curiosity over 3rd person, Anfossi explains."

This whole forum feels like a cheap tabloid sometimes.


"SPECTOR'S FURY OVER UNPROVEN DEV-TEAM'S TERRIBLE DECISIONS! WEAKSAUCE ANFOSSI LEFT WITHOUT LEG TO STAND ON!"

Eminent Game-designer Warren Spector attacked the design decisions of the lackluster Deus Ex 3 dev team earlier today, taking the untrained and possibly homosexual group of designers to task over the ridiculous addition of a lackluster third person mode to his well-regarded gem.

"I'm curious as to why ... [those half-wits]... decided to introduce a third person mode," Spector grumbled in a recent interview.

"...I would not have made that call." the noted game designer clarified sternly.

The weak and effeminate Creative Director responsible for the unpopular new third-person mechanic, David Anfossi, attempted to hand-wave Spectors comments under the carpet with the PR BS the Deus Ex 3 team has become known for.

"We decided it would be nice to allow the player, when he decides to upgrade his character for takedowns or punching through walls, to show him that happening on screen making it more spectacular and giving him a reward.” blubbered Anfossi, attempting to recoup the PR fiasco.

"From that point we were able to introduce the cover system too.”, he added, referring to the unpopular new mechanic that players say will make Deus Ex just another Gears of War clone.

Ashpolt
24th Aug 2010, 09:22
Remind me why we should care what Warren Spector thinks? Sure, he worked on the first game. But what's he done lately? What's he done that suggests that it was anything more than a fluke?

He worked on the weaker System Shock games and worked under the overpowering presence of Richard Garriott for a while. So what? And Epic Mickey? ****, that game looks to be one of the worst examples of faux freedom ever. You can use paint to alter levels drastically! By... making predefined platforms appear.

Yeah. That's... really interesting Warren. :rolleyes:

Firstly, let's compare him to DXHR's project lead, Jean-Francois Dugas. A bunch of F1 games which failed to break any moulds, the Far Cry Instincts series which weren't a patch on their PC counterpart, and Rainbow Six: Vegas, which took a great series and dumbed it down to a point that it was just another shooter, unrecognisable from its legacy. However negatively you choose to spin Spector's achievements, Dugas still comes out on bottom. By a long way.

Secondly, the guy gave us Deus Ex. You can argue against the rest of his resumé if you like, but that achievement alone is enough to give him significant credit. More so, again, than the likes of Dugas or Anfossi.

Thirdly, the original System Shock may be the weaker of the two games, but the second wouldn't exist without it. Also, the first had to work against a lot stricter system restrictions than the second - they were released 5 years apart, and technology moved a lot faster in those days than it does now. Give Spector the technology of 1999 (as System Shock 2 had) as opposed to 1994, and who knows what we might have got? Oh, wait. We got Deus Ex.

Thief, Underworld etc I don't claim to know enough about to argue about his contribution to. I'm sure someone else will.

Finally, have you ever listened to (or read a transcription of) any of the lectures Spector has given about gaming? The guy has more knowledge about what makes a good game in his little finger than most entire development teams combined.

Eh, why am I arguing with you? You've come on to a Deus Ex forum and claimed that Warren Spector doesn't know anything about making games. You couldn't be a more obvious troll if you tried. Well, congrats on being a successful troll....but you're still a troll.


Anyway, if it wasn't for the cover system, the 3rd person view might be acceptable ("only" for takedowns and wall punch and climbing and carrying). I didn't really like the cover system and autogen health system in ME2. It's action for dummies = consoles. But it sounds like they are going to clone it.

I'm against 3rd person at all, but at least without the cover system it would be truly optional. Chances are I won't use takedowns anyway, I'll stick to guns (if, admittedly, only for the express purpose of avoiding third person) but I'm sure I won't be able to get far in firefights without the artifical benefits conferred by the cover system. So in other words, I wouldn't find it "acceptable" if they removed just the cover system, but I agree it'd be a strong step in the right direction, and would be tolerable.

Xenoc
24th Aug 2010, 09:28
Put it this way with all the info about 3rd person cover, I will wait for a few reviews and opinions on here to appear before buying this game.

beastrn
24th Aug 2010, 09:53
This whole forum feels like a cheap tabloid sometimes.

I still hate you, but damn that was funny. :thumb:

xsamitt
24th Aug 2010, 11:34
I agree that asking why they went with 3RD person perspective is really a dislike in disguise.I'm not a fan of 3Rd person in a Deus EX title either,but what do you do as a fan?Buy it or not?Let's not be over dramatic,yes buy the darn thing,it still will be interesting to see all they will have accomplished.

WildcatPhoenix
24th Aug 2010, 14:05
Firstly, let's compare him to DXHR's project lead, Jean-Francois Dugas. A bunch of F1 games which failed to break any moulds, the Far Cry Instincts series which weren't a patch on their PC counterpart, and Rainbow Six: Vegas, which took a great series and dumbed it down to a point that it was just another shooter, unrecognisable from its legacy. However negatively you choose to spin Spector's achievements, Dugas still comes out on bottom. By a long way.


It's the Rainbow Six part that has me the most worried about DXHR. Rainbow Six was a critically and commercially beloved franchise, PC-centric, complex, and difficult- an absolute pillar of the tactical shooter genre. It was extremely unforgiving (1-2 bullets = death). And it was great.

But Rainbow Six: Vegas turns what was once a challenging tactical shooter into just another watered-down action FPS. I fear a similar fate for Deus Ex, especially with Dugas in charge. :hmm:

DeusWhatever
24th Aug 2010, 14:17
Firstly, let's compare him to DXHR's project lead, Jean-Francois Dugas.

I hope he doesnt read this, and even if he does read it i hope he doesnt take this personal.

But why would you give project lead for a game like DeusEX to a project-leader that seems to has almost no experience with this sort of genre, and also is known to destroy franchises by "streamlining" them to 0815-shooters?

I mean, maybe he learned from his past mistakes, but when i see where DX:HR goes i doubt it. By posting this you raised my fears even further ...

mad825
24th Aug 2010, 14:32
...except it worked just the same before the buyout. So SE are just continuing this line.

I have my conspiracy theories. :rolleyes:

Pinky_Powers
24th Aug 2010, 14:37
But Rainbow Six: Vegas turns what was once a challenging tactical shooter into just another watered-down action FPS. I fear a similar fate for Deus Ex, especially with Dugas in charge. :hmm:

To be fair, the series was already heading that way long before Vegas was even underway. The R6 series died a long time ago.

WildcatPhoenix
24th Aug 2010, 15:09
To be fair, the series was already heading that way long before Vegas was even underway. The R6 series died a long time ago.

Some of the more recent R6 games did take steps toward "streamlining" the squad commands (which, without a seriously competent friendly AI, can always be a pain in the a.ss), and sure, there were obvious concessions being made to the action audience long before Vegas came along.

But Vegas was the gamebreaker, the first time it became painfully obvious the developers were aiming for an entirely different market. It feels nothing like its predecessors. Is it an awful game? Ehh, not really- in my opinion it's quite average. Should it have the name "Rainbow Six" in the title, though? Absolutely not. It's not a Rainbow Six game.

Kinda reminds me of another beloved franchise I occasionally comment about....

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 16:16
I really wish they would just add leaning or make an option for first person. Obvious, but that's just it it's obvious and they won't do it. Imagine hiding behind cover, hearing the bullets hit your cover but not knowing where it's coming from. You have two choices toss a flashbang behind you jump up and fire or quickly peek around and get a general idea of where they are. I mean blind fire would truly be blind fire rather than really innacurate but nonetheless aimed fire. This sounds much more "visceral" and "epic" than hide behind cover with a panned out camera showing you every enemies position. Thats boring.

xsamitt
24th Aug 2010, 16:20
I really wish they would just add leaning or make an option for first person. Obvious, but that's just it it's obvious and they won't do it. Imagine hiding behind cover, hearing the bullets hit your cover but not knowing where it's coming from. You have two choices toss a flash bang behind you jump up and fire or quickly peek around and get a general idea of where they are. I mean blind fire would truly be blind fire rather than really inaccurate but nonetheless aimed fire. This sounds much more "visceral" and "epic" than hide behind cover with a panned out camera showing you every enemies position. That's boring.

You are my new Hero.Well said.:thumb:

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 16:40
Thank you! Thank you! One of the few times I was able to put my thoughts into words others can interpret right. Normally communicating with me is like talking in a different language. My brother, my ex, my favorite teacher and one other guy are the only people who can interpret regularly.

xsamitt
24th Aug 2010, 16:47
Thank you! Thank you! One of the few times I was able to put my thoughts into words others can interpret right. Normally communicating with me is like talking in a different language. My brother, my ex, my favorite teacher and one other guy are the only people who can interpret regularly.

Your quite welcome.:thumb:

atLaNt1s
24th Aug 2010, 16:53
so, real situations are epic?
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/01/25/jim_carrey300_080123060802395_wideweb__300x309.jpg

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 17:00
so, real situations are epic?
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2008/01/25/jim_carrey300_080123060802395_wideweb__300x309.jpg

Are you like secret service or something? How often do you get shot at and have to make life and death decisions?! How many people have you killed? Can you break someones arm with your mind? Lol JK!

Khaeru
24th Aug 2010, 17:17
I really wish they would just add leaning or make an option for first person. Obvious, but that's just it it's obvious and they won't do it. Imagine hiding behind cover, hearing the bullets hit your cover but not knowing where it's coming from. You have two choices toss a flashbang behind you jump up and fire or quickly peek around and get a general idea of where they are. I mean blind fire would truly be blind fire rather than really innacurate but nonetheless aimed fire. This sounds much more "visceral" and "epic" than hide behind cover with a panned out camera showing you every enemies position. Thats boring.

adam's got a special sight and cloak, so you won't be worried even for 1 sec (idk if really need to get the cloak anyway). Doesn't matter how, casual gamers must play whitout headache. I'm still for Tp mode...though a mix of both is ok with me. But hell, if they only could let players to switch from tpm to fpm whenever they want...

JCpies
24th Aug 2010, 17:33
I'd much rather see takedowns from a first person view, like Mirror's Edge, I wish more developers would use the idea of first person physical combat. I agree with Warren and until he or someone of his kind comes to develop a Deus Ex sequel, it will never be 100% Deus Ex.

xsamitt
24th Aug 2010, 17:37
I'd much rather see takedowns from a first person view, like Mirror's Edge, I wish more developers would use the idea of first person physical combat. I agree with Warren and until he or someone of his kind comes to develop a Deus Ex sequel, it will never be 100% Deus Ex.

I concur.

Khaeru
24th Aug 2010, 17:38
I'd much rather see takedowns from a first person view, like Mirror's Edge, I wish more developers would use the idea of first person physical combat. I agree with Warren and until he or someone of his kind comes to develop a Deus Ex sequel, it will never be 100% Deus Ex.

they were fun moments:D but ME is more about timing than real combats. Also AI was really dumb, meant to let everyone play for real...

DeusWhatever
24th Aug 2010, 18:46
I hearby draw back my last statement about the lead-designer of DX:HR, this guy is an epic failure:


Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

Understood what DeusEx is about -> not ... :mad2:

Ilves
24th Aug 2010, 18:52
Everytime I read that quote it makes me laugh... Then I cry a little.

pha
24th Aug 2010, 19:04
Eidos must be feeling good about themselves for taking the franchise from WS and leaving it to the mercy of these muppets.

Remember how René wore himself out, saying that quote is a "misunderstanding"?

Shralla
24th Aug 2010, 19:13
And Epic Mickey? ****, that game looks to be one of the worst examples of faux freedom ever.

I like how you say this as though anybody anywhere had ever said that one of the primary features of Epic Mickey would be "freedom."

Because they didn't. Not every game has to be Deus Ex.

Red
24th Aug 2010, 19:24
Remember how René wore himself out, saying that quote is a "misunderstanding"?

Speaking of which, why did he quit his job (if anyone knows)? I wasn't around when this happened.

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 19:25
I like how you say this as though anybody anywhere had ever said that one of the primary features of Epic Mickey would be "freedom."

Because they didn't. Not every game has to be Deus Ex.

Yes. Yes they do.

pha
24th Aug 2010, 19:28
René said he had other priorities, but his resignation coincides with the leaked secret gameplay footage. So some people have theories. A new community guy was SO GREENLIGHT but, you know, it's Eidos Montréal we're talking about.

Kodaemon
24th Aug 2010, 19:50
A new community guy was SO GREENLIGHT but, you know, it's Eidos Montréal we're talking about.

a winner is you :thumb:

Red
24th Aug 2010, 20:53
It has to be super cool augmented 3rd person greenlight for something to actually happen around here, yes... I even prepared a nice sig fo the new guy in the spirit of current month's sig theme :)

WildcatPhoenix
24th Aug 2010, 21:03
Every time I forget about that Dugas quote, someone brings it back to my attention and the rage cycle starts all over again.

There are plenty of people on these boards trying to defend EM and Dugas and Anfossi, etc. What I want to know is- how can you ignore statements like these? Deus Ex was "kind of slow"??? How does that not suggest to you that Dugas has taken the wrong approach to this franchise?

Forget Warren's opinion- I'm one of those that hold him much more responsible for the IW debacle than most people want to acknowledge. I'm more concerned with the plain evidence in front of my face. They have turned this game into a generic copy of every other Gears of War/Rainbow Six: Vegas, 3rd-person cover shooter out there. It's plain to see. The statements are out there, the evidence is out there, what more do you need to be upset?

Shralla
24th Aug 2010, 21:07
They have turned this game into a generic copy of every other Gears of War/Rainbow Six: Vegas, 3rd-person cover shooter out there. It's plain to see.

Yeah, I can plainly see what part of any of those games have fully-branching dialog trees complete with just as many neutral or friendly NPCs as hostile, the ability to deal with most situations in complete stealth (and in fact a number of other ways), and a storyline whose progress and result is determined by your actions in-game.

Fluffis
24th Aug 2010, 21:09
Forget Warren's opinion- I'm one of those that hold him much more responsible for the IW debacle than most people want to acknowledge.

I honestly think that makes him more qualified. He's seen first-hand the backlash of bad design choices in a sequel to a game with as devoted a fanbase as Deus Ex. He knows that if EM make the same mistakes with HR, the DX fans are going to be out for blood.

WildcatPhoenix
24th Aug 2010, 21:28
I honestly think that makes him more qualified. He's seen first-hand the backlash of bad design choices in a sequel to a game with as devoted a fanbase as Deus Ex. He knows that if EM make the same mistakes with HR, the DX fans are going to be out for blood.

He's definitely qualified- I just don't know if Warren has the stones to grab somebody like a Dugas or a Harvey Smith by the collar and say, "Listen up: this (insert "third person/cutscenes/universal ammo/regenerating health" here) is a dumb idea! This may rope in a few extra sales, but it will seriously detract from the quality of the game."

In the end I'm afraid it's all going to be irrelevant. Deus Ex fans are about to be pushed aside, comrades. I've listened to the buzz generated by the "kewl" trailers and press releases. I've seen the gaming press foaming at the mouth, ready to pour out adulation for DXHR. There is a lot of hype building for this game among the casual gamers. I've spoken to them, listened to their conversations. There are lots of people out there who have never played the original or IW, but the Square Enix trailers have them interested.

And they outnumber us by a lot. The sky is falling. Repent while you can.

/bitter rant.

Ilves
24th Aug 2010, 21:35
^ Yeah, that's just the way it is.

Just watched a report of the HR GamesCom demo on a Dutch gaming site that’s been in the business since the early nineties.

Two adult guys ranting on how HR was the most intricate and complex thing they’d seen in ages. Stumbling to produce grammatically correct sentences. :rolleyes:

Irate_Iguana
24th Aug 2010, 21:56
There are lots of people out there who have never played the original or IW, but the Square Enix trailers have them interested.

And they outnumber us by a lot. The sky is falling. Repent while you can.

/bitter rant.

Welcome to the club. Here is your laminated membership ID. You can take a seat over there next to the Fallout fans. The bar will open shortly.

WildcatPhoenix
24th Aug 2010, 22:01
Welcome to the club. Here is your laminated membership ID. You can take a seat over there next to the Fallout fans. The bar will open shortly.

Hehehe, I laughed out loud on this one. Then wept, softly.

mad_red
24th Aug 2010, 22:05
Yeah, I can plainly see what part of any of those games have fully-branching dialog trees complete with just as many neutral or friendly NPCs as hostile, the ability to deal with most situations in complete stealth (and in fact a number of other ways), and a storyline whose progress and result is determined by your actions in-game.

That's like saying it's ok if DX3 has Pac-man gameplay, as long as the convo's are good.

K^2
24th Aug 2010, 22:09
what more do you need to be upset?
You know, with the amount of disappointment that's going to hit all at once on the day of the release, I'm wondering if I'd be able to pick up a cheap copy off e-bay the next day.

DJ Bury
24th Aug 2010, 22:30
Don't do takedowns and don't take cover and you will not have to go into third-person, was that hard?

H.D.Case
24th Aug 2010, 22:31
I've just reminded myself about Anachronox. It was a great third person, cyberpunk, witty game. But no material for replay, I could not FEEL the game so much because of that. And the repeated, "spectacular" battle combos - so boring and tedious that it was almost a pain! The first two, three times it was acceptable. But how long can you stand that?

Shralla
24th Aug 2010, 23:02
That's like saying it's ok if DX3 has Pac-man gameplay, as long as the convo's are good.

Except the gameplay is still shooting. You still get to upgrade your augmentations and your weapons. You still get to decide whether or not you even want to USE those weapons, or if you'd rather go stealthy. Not even remotely the same, but nice try.

Irate_Iguana
24th Aug 2010, 23:05
Don't do takedowns and don't take cover and you will not have to go into third-person, was that hard?

Don't use any other augmentations and don't go up ladders either. Hey, you only need to ignore about 90% of the game. That really is easy.

Ilves
24th Aug 2010, 23:10
Don't do takedowns and don't take cover and you will not have to go into third-person, was that hard?

http://cache2.hyves-static.net/images/smilies/default/smiley_hammer.gif

mad_red
24th Aug 2010, 23:29
Except the gameplay is still shooting. You still get to upgrade your augmentations and your weapons. You still get to decide whether or not you even want to USE those weapons, or if you'd rather go stealthy. Not even remotely the same, but nice try.

At least I tried.

The absurdity is to help you understand that "great dialog" has about as much relevance "fps/tp combat" as Pacman has.

ArcR
25th Aug 2010, 00:57
Don't do takedowns and don't take cover and you will not have to go into third-person, was that hard?

........


Ensuring we never see third person:


don't use the cover system
don't use takedowns
don't use ladders
don't eavesdrop on people from vents
don't get blown out of the window
generally, don't try advancing the plot
even more generally, you should be safe provided you don't do anything.

pha
25th Aug 2010, 01:05
Don't do takedowns and don't take cover and you will not have to go into third-person, was that hard?

:thumb:

You are the kind of person DX:HR is being made for.

mad825
25th Aug 2010, 01:09
don't eavesdrop on people from vents

let me guess, this was taken from the trailer/leaked demo. :hmm:

last time I checked it was part of a cutscene, not part of the actual gameplay.

Jerion
25th Aug 2010, 01:17
I don't get it. What's the deal with the cutscene hate? Anybody else remember when DX had the exact same thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPF1wytlymM

Skip to 4:02 friends, and enjoy.

pringlepower
25th Aug 2010, 01:20
I don't get it. What's the deal with the cutscene hate? Anybody else remember when DX had the exact same thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPF1wytlymM

Skip to 4:02 friends, and enjoy.

Nice to know someone finally found an example

Ulysses
25th Aug 2010, 03:07
"Dugas says the original Deus Ex was “kind of slow”. He added, “There weren’t enough exciting, memorable moments. It was aimed more towards a simulation rather than a game experience.”

Wonder the hell he means by that? Needed more "intense" gunfights and "excitement" like Vegas 2 or something ? Hate throwaway comments like that, especially from a developer.

Marses
25th Aug 2010, 03:18
Ensuring we never see third-person in Deus Ex:

Don't enter a conversation with anyone.

Dead-Eye
25th Aug 2010, 03:35
I don't get it. What's the deal with the cutscene hate? Anybody else remember when DX had the exact same thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPF1wytlymM

Skip to 4:02 friends, and enjoy.

I think the problem is that they are using cutscenes too liberally. Deus Ex had about 4 and you only saw them at the start and at the end. As such they really felt like a reward for beating the game. HR doesn't feel like it's rewarding us with cutscenes but rather trying to impress us with them. Seeing as the Deus Ex fanbase is, for the most part, comprised of intelligent individuals. We are more impressed with good composition of existing game elements rather then flashy cutscenes and Hollywood style game-play mechanics.

WildcatPhoenix
25th Aug 2010, 04:01
I don't get it. What's the deal with the cutscene hate? Anybody else remember when DX had the exact same thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPF1wytlymM

Skip to 4:02 friends, and enjoy.

The only cutscenes in the original Deus were at level exit points and the beginning/endgames. There was absolutely no point at all where the mid-mission action screeched to a halt and players had to sit back to watch two NPCs talk. Yeah, there was a 3rd-person cam in conversations, some of which were proximity triggered, but these were still interactive.

There was never anything similar to egg-carton Cockney Man talking to Tong, while Adam dispatches his cranial cam to give us different camera angles. Never.

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 04:43
I think the problem is that they are using cutscenes too liberally. Deus Ex had about 4 and you only saw them at the start and at the end. As such they really felt like a reward for beating the game. HR doesn't feel like it's rewarding us with cutscenes but rather trying to impress us with them. Seeing as the Deus Ex fanbase is, for the most part, comprised of intelligent individuals. We are more impressed with good composition of existing game elements rather then flashy cutscenes and Hollywood style game-play mechanics.

I like cutscenes between missions :whistle: Some time ago I played driv3r. I hated the gameplay, but went on playing only to see the cutscenes :P I hope this is not the case, but I enjoy seeing detailed video of the things from the game I am playing. No graphic engine nowadays can show you so much, as the short movies can, so you get to experience more that way. Just check the dx:hr trailers. So many little things to check out! I see it as a plus and I feel like I have to thank the devs for that :) You really don't like'em?

Anasumtj
25th Aug 2010, 05:02
let me guess, this was taken from the trailer/leaked demo. :hmm:

last time I checked it was part of a cutscene, not part of the actual gameplay.

Yes, a cutscene. Something the original and sequel didn't have sans their beginnings and ends.


I don't get it. What's the deal with the cutscene hate? Anybody else remember when DX had the exact same thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPF1wytlymM

Skip to 4:02 friends, and enjoy.


Nice to know someone finally found an example

That's dialogue. Not a cutscene.

There was never a moment in the first two games when the camera zoomed out to watch JC get into a slow-mo fistfight with Gunther Hermann, or a ridiculous scene where he dives away from an explosion like a ******* Mission Impossible b-roll. You would be hardpressed to show much in the way of cutscenes when making a gameplay trailer for the first game. The last one from HR showed at least four or more. That really tells me all I need to know.

Nobody should be shocked by this. Dugas said the game would need a lot of cutscenes.

pringlepower
25th Aug 2010, 05:10
Yes, a cutscene. Something the original and sequel didn't have sans their beginnings and ends.





That's dialogue. Not a cutscene.

There was never a moment in the first two games when the camera zoomed out to watch JC get into a slow-mo fistfight with Gunther Hermann, or a ridiculous scene where he dives away from an explosion like a ******* Mission Impossible b-roll.

Right, and what's the cutscene seen through the vent? Dialogue.

Anasumtj
25th Aug 2010, 05:17
Right, and what's the cutscene seen through the vent? Dialogue.

Please, it's a showcase. Whereas Deus Ex would have retained the first person camera to give you an actual sense of eavesdropping - of not being where you're supposed to be - and allowing the player to engage in the story at his will, we'll cut to a completely unnecessary and boring cutscene with a ridiculous looking character as a way of shaking the player's head and screaming PAY ATTENTION, IMPORTANT **** GOING DOWN. Why? Who ******* cares. To make it "cinematic", or to show off the engine, or to hold the player's hand since he's too stupid to pay attention to his surroundings, or whatever.

Take a guess as to which approach I find a little more subtle and appropriate for a Deus Ex game. Not that this particular argument actually matters since the last trailer showed plenty more cutscenes with a lot more going on than mere talking.

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 05:30
But you guys know that owing to the fact that we have cutscene battles, we do not have the immortal-cos-still- needed-for-some-time characters. I hope. At least it is a logical way to solve the problem that so many people have nagged about.

Cronstintein
25th Aug 2010, 06:11
oh I dunno, I bet Tong's invincible in the bar before you get to that overhear cut-scene. Just guessing though.

pringlepower
25th Aug 2010, 06:22
Please, it's a showcase. Whereas Deus Ex would have retained the first person camera to give you an actual sense of eavesdropping - of not being where you're supposed to be - and allowing the player to engage in the story at his will, we'll cut to a completely unnecessary and boring cutscene with a ridiculous looking character as a way of shaking the player's head and screaming PAY ATTENTION, IMPORTANT **** GOING DOWN. Why? Who ******* cares. To make it "cinematic", or to show off the engine, or to hold the player's hand since he's too stupid to pay attention to his surroundings, or whatever.

Take a guess as to which approach I find a little more subtle and appropriate for a Deus Ex game. Not that this particular argument actually matters since the last trailer showed plenty more cutscenes with a lot more going on than mere talking.

Right, and as for Mr. K's previous youtube clip, there's no reason JC couldn't walk around while Page talked to Savage. But oh lookie, a completely unnecessary and boring cutscene with a ridiculous looking character (i mean seriously, if nano-augmentation is so advanced why the hell are there wires on his head) as a way of shaking the player's head and screaming PAY ATTENTION IMPORTANT **** GOING DOWN. Why? Who ******* cares. To make it "cinematic", or to show off the engine, or to hold the player's hand since he's too stupid to pay attention to his surroundings, or whatever.

Anasumtj
25th Aug 2010, 06:36
You're a clever little knob.

Oh wait, swapping my words around didn't really make any kind of sensible point. My bad.

pringlepower
25th Aug 2010, 06:41
You're a clever little knob.

Oh wait, swapping my words around didn't really make any kind of sensible point. My bad.

I know, right?

Red
25th Aug 2010, 07:04
In original deus ex, the 3rd person in conversations was used ONLY when JC was standing next to someone and actually PARTICIPATING in the conversation, exceptions being the beginning and ending of the game.

mad825
25th Aug 2010, 07:18
sooo, “Deus Ex 1 with better textures”?

Red
25th Aug 2010, 07:40
You want it? Here it is: http://offtopicproductions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2041

Fluffis
25th Aug 2010, 09:13
In original deus ex, the 3rd person in conversations was used ONLY when JC was standing next to someone and actually PARTICIPATING in the conversation, exceptions being the beginning and ending of the game.

^^^ This.

If Adam was involved in the conversation, from his hiding place in the vent I wouldn't have reacted to the cutscene (well, I would, but for entirely different reasons). Eavesdropping in DX was exactly that: eavesdropping. Not a scene shoved down your throat.
When JC was a part of a "cutscene" (read: non-interactive dialogue), it didn't feel forced. It felt like they had some things that needed to be done. Either to build suspense through timing and rhythm in the dialogue, or to get through a large amount of dialogue with minimal interruption. In either case, JC was involved and active. Adam is not involved in the "vent dialogue", and still it's cinematic. Third person in JC's dialogues could be put down to situational awareness, since we never see a face that JC isn't able to see. We should never be able to see the face of the thug with his back to Adam in the "vent dialogue".

No, the vent scene is just supposed to be cinematic and Cool™. But movie sensibilities are not about interaction, which makes them a poor fit for a computer game.

APostLife
25th Aug 2010, 09:19
^^^ This.

If Adam was involved in the conversation, from his hiding place in the vent I wouldn't have reacted to the cutscene (well, I would, but for entirely different reasons). Eavesdropping in DX was exactly that: eavesdropping. Not a scene shoved down your throat.
When JC was a part of a "cutscene" (read: non-interactive dialogue), it didn't feel forced. It felt like they had some things that needed to be done. Either to build suspense through timing and rhythm in the dialogue, or to get through a large amount of dialogue with minimal interruption. In either case, JC was involved and active. Adam is not involved in the "vent dialogue", and still it's cinematic. Third person in JC's dialogues could be put down to situational awareness, since we never see a face that JC isn't able to see. We should never be able to see the face of the thug with his back to Adam in the "vent dialogue".

No, the vent scene is just supposed to be cinematic and Cool™. But movie sensibilities are not about interaction, which makes them a poor fit for a computer game.

Totally agree with you there. What are they doing for God sake?

JCpies
25th Aug 2010, 09:29
I seem to keep refering to Mirror's edge, but even they it got eavesdropping right, though there was little of it.

Instead of giving advice or questions that none of the development team take into account, why doesn't he get in there (Wherever 'there' is) and create a real Deus Ex or Deus Ex like game. He has the experience, the brains and the tech to do it, so why doesn't he do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I love you Warren).

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 11:45
I think that you are picking on pointlessly. It is bad that there are nice cutscenes? They probably just save time in situations where you would be wasting time. Maybe instead of making you to walk in endless vent shafts, they made it into a cutscene. Whatever is there, I can't see any problem. Maybve it is just me.
PS. Another famous vent video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04MgYdp7_yg

WildcatPhoenix
25th Aug 2010, 13:51
I really don't think it can be stated enough:

Video games are interactive simulations. They depend on player immersion. The player puts him/herself in the shoes of a protaganist character and drives the story forward through his/her actions.

Movies are passive entertainment. They tell a story through visual images and dialogue, but the audience has no input on the progress or outcome of the story.

Have there been thousands of video games with cutscenes? Yes. Deus Ex was about taking the next step in simulated immersion, pushing the genre forward. Now we're simply regressing for the sake of "kewl" images that we've seen 10,000 times in every generic Hollywood action film. I mean, really, our character diving out of a window while a bomb explodes behind him? Very original, Eidos Montreal. :hmm:

xsamitt
25th Aug 2010, 13:59
I really don't think it can be stated enough:

Video games are interactive simulations. They depend on player immersion. The player puts him/herself in the shoes of a protaganist character and drives the story forward through his/her actions.

Movies are passive entertainment. They tell a story through visual images and dialogue, but the audience has no input on the progress or outcome of the story.

Have there been thousands of video games with cutscenes? Yes. Deus Ex was about taking the next step in simulated immersion, pushing the genre forward. Now we're simply regressing for the sake of "kewl" images that we've seen 10,000 times in every generic Hollywood action film. I mean, really, our character diving out of a window while a bomb explodes behind him? Very original, Eidos Montreal. :hmm:

I agree ..this is the whole reason I enjoy gaming so much.I want to feel involved.I can't undersatand why this very basic reasoning wasn't applied to HR.

beastrn
25th Aug 2010, 14:32
Some good discussions in here guys. Really helps remind me why I love the potential gaming has. Sometimes it's hard when it's being wasted on "cool" effects for the sake of a buck.

**** I hope they never make Thief 4.

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 14:36
No, thousands of other games use ****ty game-engine cutscenes. They decided to make it right, I am so happy they made this choice, so instead of seeing your characters turned into script zombies after you reach some checkpoint or whatever, you get a nicely polished animation. I prefer the animation from the beginning of the third trailer to engine based original Deus Ex Jock's chopper start. Or to IW, where there was completely nothing to make you feel you actually traveled (oops, I almost forgot - we had the loading screen). I also have this idea that cinematics might play in HR while the new level is loading. With combination of the engine (from what I've heard, real time in-level loading anyway) and this cinematics "loading screen" we would not have to see any artificial screen at all (and wait at all). We still don't know how much of that there will be in DX anyway. One thing I agree with - there is a danger that the cutscenes will be overly spectacular, meaning, kitschy. We already see dangers like that in the trailers. "I am so cool" face expressions, stupidly copied from Japanese cartoons 3 metres high jumping on your opponent (that was imho the worst thing I've seen in those fragments - SO BAD!) and a possibility of the form getting bigger than the content. We'll see, we have nothing else to do anyway, right? ;)

xsamitt
25th Aug 2010, 14:39
I sincerely hope that EM make all our fears meaningless.It's good for everyone if this is indeed the case.

Pretentious Old Man.
25th Aug 2010, 15:24
I fear this is a problem for the industry as a whole. People (not mentioning any names) who find time spent wandering through vents a "waste of time", more action plz!!!

The quiet moments of anticipation and planning was what made Deus Ex great. As well as the fact that you never got a cutscene to tell you that you were doing what the developers planned all along, have a cookie.

Vladimyre
25th Aug 2010, 15:31
The more I hear about DE:HR the more I die a little bit more inside for Thief 4. Here's to hoping they don't go this way for Thief 4. "New" and "Fresh" isn't always good.

beastrn
25th Aug 2010, 15:31
I fear this is a problem for the industry as a whole. People (not mentioning any names) who find time spent wandering through vents a "waste of time", more action plz!!!

The quiet moments of anticipation and planning was what made Deus Ex great. As well as the fact that you never got a cutscene to tell you that you were doing what the developers planned all along, have a cookie.

That's one of my biggest gripes. And quite a deep one.

Older games, you never knew if you were "on the right path". You never knew if you were progressing the "main story". You just did things. Things happened. And you kept going until the credits came up. It was immersion at it's finest.

It really does take away from a game when the design is constantly reminding you (or "rewarding" you, apparently) that you "dun gud".

Mind you I'm not of the opinion that games shouldn't have cutscenes or anything. But when you're actively trying to go for immersion (as in, most FPS titles) then things like;

-taking control away from the player (locked POV, 3rd person cutscenes, locked controls) so some scripted animation stuff can happen.
-showing the CHARACTER do actions
-giving cookies in the form of action based reward cutscenes to make sure you know you went the right, linear way

etc, ruin it.

Anywa, it's game design 101. Obviously not everyone can be a Spektor or a Hideo or a [Penumbra Developer], but **** them for not trying to be.

Oh well - makes my job easier. My games are going to blow everyone away. :)

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 15:42
I fear this is a problem for the industry as a whole. People (not mentioning any names) who find time spent wandering through vents a "waste of time", more action plz!!!

The quiet moments of anticipation and planning was what made Deus Ex great. As well as the fact that you never got a cutscene to tell you that you were doing what the developers planned all along, have a cookie.

Why, thank you good sir. But you did not the point with your "educated" guess. Still, now I understand my mistake - game intervals should be scripted - death to cinematics and long live Trotsky. Now excuse me, you inspired me to walk around in some vents.

Ilves
25th Aug 2010, 15:43
Aren't we fickle. Imagine back in the day being served a 256 color pre rendered primary shape 3d FMV was a genuine reward. *nostalgia sigh* http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/9.gif

On the subject matter of air vents: Last weekend I was, for the first time in my life, confronted with a man sized vent at a reachable height. Here I was thinking they were just a silly video game trope. Needless to say I had to constrain myself.

Fluffis
25th Aug 2010, 15:47
I think that you are picking on pointlessly. It is bad that there are nice cutscenes? They probably just save time in situations where you would be wasting time. Maybe instead of making you to walk in endless vent shafts, they made it into a cutscene. Whatever is there, I can't see any problem. Maybve it is just me.
PS. Another famous vent video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04MgYdp7_yg

It's just you.

That post instantly made you the enemy. Nothing personal, though - it's because of what the post tells me, not you personally. It speaks of cutting out things that are not "cool". That are not "action". Wasting time... Jesus... Well, at least you're honest.

I honestly think that (probably) most Deus Ex fans enjoy crawling through vents, in anticipation of what lies ahead. It's one of those things that added up to make Deus Ex one of the best games (if not the best game) of all time.



On the subject matter of air vents: Last weekend I was, for the first time in my life, confronted with a man sized vent at a reachable height. Here I was thinking they were just a silly video game trope. Needless to say I had to constrain myself.


Why? Go for the gusto! Crawl that bad-boy! :D

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 15:56
Geez, fanatics! :p To say the truth, I was thinking more of the time wasted in catacombs or the naval base. Here we were talking about the vent cinematics. So were I to talk about catacombs? If the sole point of walking around in some callars and through vents is only to hear what they said, I prefer a cinematics substitute. What are we talking about anwyay, this is truly an unproductive conversation - the cinematics are already done. Period. So this all here is totally unproductive. I think that the cinematics will be triggered after we reach some point in the vents anyway, so we don't have to crawl back - we will probably be tranferred via cinematics to another place.

Yours truly,
Enemy

Ilves
25th Aug 2010, 16:02
Why? Go for the gusto! Crawl that bad-boy! :D


And break a nail? Besides, I'm pretty sure that would have seriously estranged the company I was in. Oh, peer pressure. :nut:

Fluffis
25th Aug 2010, 16:07
Geez, fanatics! :p To say the truth, I was thinking more of the time wasted in catacombs or the naval base. Here we were talking about the vent cinematics. So were I to talk about catacombs? If the sole point of walking around in some callars and through vents is only to hear what they said, I prefer a cinematics substitute. What are we talking about anwyay, this is truly an unproductive conversation - the cinematics are already done. Period. So this all here is totally unproductive. I think that the cinematics will be triggered after we reach some point in the vents anyway, so we don't have to crawl back - we will probably be tranferred via cinematics to another place.

Yours truly,
Enemy

No, this is not unproductive. It doesn't have anything to do with that. This is criticism. This is a reaction to design choices already made.

So... what? Are you saying that you only want to play the action parts, and watch the rest? Then go play God of War or something. Or better yet, rent a movie. We're talking about a game here. You know: interaction with a computer generated environment. And we're talking about immersion. Actually being the one that performs the all the actions, in order to form a greater bond with your character, or even better: feeling like you're the one who is doing all those things.

There is no way in hell or heaven, that a cutscene can replace something like that.


And break a nail? Besides, I'm pretty sure that would have seriously estranged the company I was in. Oh, peer pressure. :nut:

Quit being such a girl... *runs for cover* :D

Pretentious Old Man.
25th Aug 2010, 16:23
Why, thank you good sir. But you did not the point with your "educated" guess. Still, now I understand my mistake - game intervals should be scripted - death to cinematics and long live Trotsky. Now excuse me, you inspired me to walk around in some vents.

Google translate doth not a coherent post make. ;)

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 16:24
1. I think that criticism only has a point, when there is a chance of changing things? Don't be a wilson :P
2. You are very wrong about me - if you feel like, but you probably don't, check my other posts and you will see why. If I wanted to play this ****ty God of War, I would not be here, right?
3. What can I do - I just love good cinematics :) Unlike what you can expect, there are not many of the good ones nowadays, mind you.
4. I should stop procrastinating NOW - the last day was just peeking and peeking on this forum isntead of serious writing. So till some other time!
cheerio!

Pretentious Old Man.
25th Aug 2010, 16:31
Why...should I dislike you? You're just a guy on an internet forum who has a different opinion to mine.

I never said you were a headcase. :)

H.D.Case
25th Aug 2010, 16:31
Google translate doth not a coherent post make. ;)

Thou shalt not make hasty presumptions! Haha, you are right, I meant "get the point" and however instead of still. Does it really sound like google? :/ Too much computer presumably. Plus, don't be so cruel on my stream of consciousness.

Edit: My previous post was at Fluffis, sorry for misunderstanding, but you wrote your post when I was writing my answer to him :)

Ilves
25th Aug 2010, 16:36
I never said you were a headcase. :)

Oh, I was so holding on to that beauty for future use. :rolleyes:

Fluffis
25th Aug 2010, 16:46
1. I think that criticism only has a point, when there is a chance of changing things? Don't be a wilson :P
2. You are very wrong about me - if you feel like, but you probably don't, check my other posts and you will see why. If I wanted to play this ****ty God of War, I would not be here, right?
3. What can I do - I just love good cinematics :) Unlike what you can expect, there are not many of the good ones nowadays, mind you.
4. I should stop procrastinating NOW - the last day was just peeking and peeking on this forum isntead of serious writing. So till some other time!
cheerio!

Don't get me wrong; I love a good cinematic. Just not when it is a substitute for actually playing the game.

WildcatPhoenix
25th Aug 2010, 16:54
Don't get me wrong; I love a good cinematic. Just not when it is a substitute for actually playing the game.

I love a good cinematic. I go to the mailbox, pick up my favorite cinematic from its bright red envelope, open it, put it in the DVD player, and enjoy.

Seriously. If I want to watch a movie, I will put in a damn DVD or BluRay. If I want to play a video game, I will play a video game. Personally I would've preferred Deus Ex to keep the whole thing in 1st person, even with the conversations (such as the Half-Life series).

Fluffis
25th Aug 2010, 20:36
I love a good cinematic. I go to the mailbox, pick up my favorite cinematic from its bright red envelope, open it, put it in the DVD player, and enjoy.

Seriously. If I want to watch a movie, I will put in a damn DVD or BluRay. If I want to play a video game, I will play a video game. Personally I would've preferred Deus Ex to keep the whole thing in 1st person, even with the conversations (such as the Half-Life series).

I could live with that...

mad_red
25th Aug 2010, 23:46
1. I think that criticism only has a point, when there is a chance of changing things? Don't be a wilson :P

This one had my eyes bulging :eek:

So all movie critics are doing something pointless? Are they all hoping that the producer will go back and change everything they didn't like, and then re-release the movie?

I don't think that ad hoc criticism doesn't have a point. Rather, I think that you simply missed it.



By the way, I'd like to nominate the subway hostage situation vent system as the most memorable vents in DX. I died so many, many times trying to get it just the way I liked (as stealthy as possible and non-lethal only).

Pretentious Old Man.
26th Aug 2010, 00:25
I managed it in one. What was the trouble? Since they can't follow in from the vents, just use them as cover. Headshot with a tranquilizer dart for each of them, they're dead non-lethally.

Admittedly I had pistols up to Advanced by that stage. With a lower level of skill in pistols, or with fewer tranq darts, it might have been harder.

mad_red
26th Aug 2010, 00:33
I managed it in one. What was the trouble? Since they can't follow in from the vents, just use them as cover. Headshot with a tranquilizer dart for each of them, they're dead non-lethally.

Admittedly I had pistols up to Advanced by that stage. With a lower level of skill in pistols, or with fewer tranq darts, it might have been harder.

I think I first tried to do it completely unnoticed, which was impossible without the aug. Then I settled for using only the baton, and I think I got fried by the flamethrower guy or shot by the others a few times. Finally, not sure how exactly, I managed to take them all down non-lethally and fast enough that I figured I wouldn't have been endangering the hostages.

In other words, I was role-playing, so I do weird stuff :p

MaxxQ1
26th Aug 2010, 08:25
I love a good cinematic. I go to the mailbox, pick up my favorite cinematic from its bright red envelope, open it, put it in the DVD player, and enjoy.

I, and my employer (that you get those bright red envelopes from), thank you.

WildcatPhoenix
26th Aug 2010, 13:23
I, and my employer (that you get those bright red envelopes from), thank you.

Lol, blessings be upon you, Oh Mighty Provider of Movies from the sky! I will continue to offer up sacrifices of $8.99 per month, and may you continue to provide a bountiful harvest of DVD and instant streaming. :thumb:

avenging_teabag
26th Aug 2010, 14:06
I managed it in one. What was the trouble? Since they can't follow in from the vents, just use them as cover. Headshot with a tranquilizer dart for each of them, they're dead non-lethally.

Admittedly I had pistols up to Advanced by that stage. With a lower level of skill in pistols, or with fewer tranq darts, it might have been harder.
I actually replayed it yesterday night, pistols untrained (downgraded it for rifles), makes no difference at all.

So I walked through the entire section without taking any hits, and wanted to go open a crate on the landing near the barricade before heading out. Picked up a TNT crate and tried to block the blue tripwires with it. BA-DAM! Without saving.

True story.

Pretentious Old Man.
26th Aug 2010, 14:27
^^^ lol, this is what makes Deus Ex great.

I was amazed at how easy my current playthrough was, though. When I first played on Normal all those years ago, it seemed Mega-hard! Now I'm breezing through on realistic.

Red
26th Aug 2010, 14:31
I'm _still_ waiting for HDTP to be finished before I go on another playthrough. I guess there's more chance I'll die of old age than live to see that happen. -.-

avenging_teabag
26th Aug 2010, 14:37
@POM Same here. It's because you know every nook and cranny and know how to exploit the mechanics. I'm just waiting for a silencer mod for my sniper and then I'm an unstoppable death machine.

JCpies
26th Aug 2010, 17:13
Don't do takedowns and don't take cover and you will not have to go into third-person, was that hard?

I love you! You're the reason developers make games for money, not fun!

Pretentious Old Man.
26th Aug 2010, 19:25
^^^ Actually, an inventory was compiled of people like that. It's the people who bought the MW2 DLC pack. You might think that it was an overpriced piece of crap sold to make money shamelessly, but actually Kotick is a CIA agent who is trying to isolate and identify the born suckers in society.

http://clearlyexplained.com/answers/domesday-book.jpg
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/star4ucker/conspiracy.jpg

luminar
26th Aug 2010, 20:12
Conspiracy's FTW! Somehow HR needs to capture a good conspiracy that doesn't feel forced.

JCpies
27th Aug 2010, 11:38
^^^ Actually, an inventory was compiled of people like that. It's the people who bought the MW2 DLC pack. You might think that it was an overpriced piece of crap sold to make money shamelessly, but actually Kotick is a CIA agent who is trying to isolate and identify the born suckers in society.

I'm glad I'm not in that book.

Pretentious Old Man.
27th Aug 2010, 12:45
I'm glad I'm not in that book.

Good. At the second coming of Christ, they shall be stamped with a mark that reads "fail", and paraded about for all to see.

H.D.Case
28th Aug 2010, 15:11
This one had my eyes bulging :eek:

So all movie critics are doing something pointless? Are they all hoping that the producer will go back and change everything they didn't like, and then re-release the movie?

I don't think that ad hoc criticism doesn't have a point. Rather, I think that you simply missed it.

By the way, I'd like to nominate the subway hostage situation vent system as the most memorable vents in DX. I died so many, many times trying to get it just the way I liked (as stealthy as possible and non-lethal only).

Geez, talking about ego. So you think you're like a movie critic? And of a thing that hasn't even gone out yet? I don't know about you, people, but I am only commenting on the issues I find important in hope the devs will notice it and at least think about it. In the sense "****, we haven't thought about it - maybe that would be good." There is a slight chance, but still is. If I did not share my doubts, I would have felt that I lost my chance/the opportunity.
Because, let's face it, they don't care so much about what you decide about here, especially that you behave like a bunch of fanatics. The main consumers are the ones who don't look at this forum. You are just a small bunch of people. You don't make a difference and will buy the game anyway. About hostile attitudes - it never helps with changing anything on the web. I had forgotten how pointless I-net discussions have become since at least 7-8 years ago until I started discussing here. Some of you don't really read others' posts carefully. I don't feel like posting here any further.

Nyysjan
28th Aug 2010, 15:19
Geez, talking about ego. So you think you're like a movie critic?

Haven't you heard? Everybody's a critic.:D

Ilves
28th Aug 2010, 17:49
Don’t know if this is the most comprehensive example of the man’s design philosophy on the net, but let me recall to memory Warren Spector’s (I believe) 2007 UT Master Classes (http://www.veoh.com/collection/Master-class/watch/v63815185HAYMMt9) on Game Design & Digital Media.

I’ve just re-watched the introductory lecture and it’s been a genuine treat, I strongly recommend it. Meat of the lecture starts about 40 minutes in.


Random tasty quotes:


00:33:40 What I demand is that you go out and demand more from people like me. Because one of the frustrations for me is that gamers are so undemanding. They keep accepting the same game over and over and over again, with prettier pictures and flashier graphics […] and cooler sounds, bigger explosions this time. That’s not good enough.

So I’m hoping you guys- what you take away from this is “wait, games can be more than they are now. And even if I can’t change it from the inside, I will buy games that are more than the games I’ve been playing. I’m not gonna buy Halo 72.” And in that way, even if you don’t get into the game business, or you don’t become a lobbyist, or you don’t become a critic or historian, you can change the game industry by being a more discriminating gamer.


00:41:20 […] We can generate player driven experiences, and we can share authorship, and these are new concepts. […] We author players’ systems that they can exploit however they want. Not how I want them to, but how they want. When we’re at our best we can even create systems that allow them to set in motion events that we as developers don’t control, can’t anticipate, and didn’t plan for. And that’s when things get really interesting. […] That’s when games become sort of like constrained life, and let players test behaviors that we won’t want them testing in the real world, frankly, and find out something about themselves as they play. In other words, we’re the first medium that’s two-way. And for me, speaking personally, and speaking as a developer, the best moments in games are the ones that belong to the players, and not to the developers.


00:47:34 Games are at their best when the choices you’re making are saying something about you, and not about the game or the character. […]


00:52:00 The key is that player experience comes first. […] It’s not about you [the designer]. You’re not Steven Spielberg. You wanna be Steven Spielberg, make movies. […] Player experience comes first. Their creativity means more than yours. Players love to leave their mark in the world, you have to give them every opportunity to do so. That’s true in board games, that’s true in card games, that’s true in tagging, in graffiti, in tattooing, you name it. Players wanna leave their mark- people wanna leave their mark on their world, let them leave their mark in this virtual world.


00:54:25 The computer allows self-expression, that’s the key. We learn more about ourselves in the way we interact with computers. That’s the critical thing there: self-expression. Major factor in separating games from other media. […] The critical part here is “a struggle not merely for interpretive insight, but narrative control”. The quoted part at the end there is the player talking: “I want this text to tell my story, the story that cannot be without me”.


Also this (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/03/18/news_6120449.html) makes for a good lazy saturday afternoon read.

Cronstintein
28th Aug 2010, 19:19
That was an interesting read, thank you for linking it :)

JackShandy
29th Aug 2010, 04:15
I like how he's complaining about how gamers don't complain about games enough.

Has he BEEN on the internet?

Cronstintein
29th Aug 2010, 04:23
He wants us to complain with our wallets, not our whiny troll-mouths.

DeusWhatever
29th Aug 2010, 05:10
Well hes right, gamers dont complain enough. Forums are just a small part of the people buying games. And even though some people write down things and complain, they still buy, they even buy the next games from the same publisher/developer. Which is exactly why publishers can do anything nowadays, just look at the pathetic Steam-Protest-groups from Modern Warfare 2.

Or just look at the ****ed up DLCs that destroy the game for lots of gamers. But the greatest thing, you pay 15 Dollars for maps, you cant even chose to play yourself. Yet almost no one really complains, they all even buy the next DLC like junkies.

Its really upsetting, to see so many people acting like drug addicts. It almost seems as if many seem to think they dont even have the choice not to buy some computergame.

Nyysjan
29th Aug 2010, 05:16
He wants us to complain with our wallets, not our whiny troll-mouths.

well i have managed to stop myself from buying any games of late, apart from dragon age: awakening.
and will continue to do so unless the game really is something i think will give me my moneys worth.

Current list of games to buy: starcraft 2, (i'll buy alpha protocol if i find it on sale or in the used games bin).
Current list of games i'm waiting: world of warcraft: cataclysm, deus ex 3, the secret world (mmo from funcom, seems promising) and Star Wars: The Old Republic, Dragon Age 2.
All games that are either from reliable developers (Bioware, Blizzard), or otherwise show promise (Deus Ex (altough the promise keeps getting to shakier grounds as we learn more of it) and The Secret World) to be different from the mass produced crap we keep getting sold (Alpha Protocol is, from all i here, mediocre at best, wich is why i'll not buy it unless i find it on sale or as used).

Ashpolt
29th Aug 2010, 12:15
^^ I thoroughly enjoyed Alpha Protocol, to be honest. Yes, it was a little rough around the edges, but for the most part it's faults were in it's execution, not in it's scope - and as I've said on these forums many times before, I'd rather a game reached for the moon and fell slightly short than set a low target and meet it. Alpha Protocol, for all it's faults, is still one of the deepest RPGs to be released in the past few years - which admittedly says bad things about the state of the RPG industry, but you've got to thank AP for at least trying! I think it's criminal that it won't be getting a sequel, because now they've got the basics in place, they could've spent more time refining and polishing a sequel, and it could've been superb.

In short, I'd really recommend buying it. It's not all that expensive now on Amazon etc.

Cronstintein
29th Aug 2010, 20:36
It is sad Alpha protocol won't get another chance, so much potential :(
I would buy a copy if I could read the text on my damn box-tv but it's so small and the text is the best part.

I'm going to have problems picking and choosing which games to get over the next year, so many good ones!
(mostly in order of release)
Nhl 11 - don't own any sports games but the demo of HUT mode was surprisingly addictive and strategy/RPG like.
AC:Brotherhood - sneaky multi-player? yes please!
DX - possibly wait on a review before purchase, if it's panned hard I might wait a couple weeks and get it from ebay for like $30. Single-player games tend to drop prices fast in the used market. Although if it's it's good I want to support the chances of a sequel so... we'll see.
Brink - looks pretty cool, taking a wait and see approach.
Metal gear: rising - sword that cuts through anything? Gimme!
Crysis 2/GOW3/Halo10/MoH/CoD7 : Doubtful about any of these. I'm not crazy about run-of-the-mill shooters, I prefer a little innovation in my gameplay. Crysis and Halo top of the pile 'cause I like sci-fi.

Anyway, not sure how I drifted off into this but there's a ton of good stuff on the horizon, and I probably forgot another handful (oh yeah, witcher2 anyone? Guild wars 2? Gah! Oh and fallout:LV... so many!).

Khaeru
29th Aug 2010, 21:57
Guild wars 2? Gah! ... so many!).

If you enjoy playing mmorpgs give a look to Vindictus XE.

Cronstintein
29th Aug 2010, 23:33
Looks interesting but my current computer is more dvd player/typewriter/web browser than game machine :(
Which takes me out of contention for GW2 until I get a new one. :( :( :(

So all of the above purchases will be xbox bound.

(I really like free-to-play mentality. Subscription fees aren't for me.)

Khaeru
30th Aug 2010, 06:50
don't worry, Vindictus was meant as a console game too. This means that it requieres 5 years old technology. Assuming that your pc is able to play GW2, try to compare the requierements of both GW2 and Vindictus and see if you will go for minimum details or higher.

I really like free-to-play mentality. Subscription fees aren't for me.
last 2 years mmos were like clones of the most popular games. Give a look to Hessian or Dizzel, Huxley(in development from 2005..), Battery, Genesis AD....

lithos
1st Sep 2010, 15:36
He wants us to complain with our wallets, not our whiny troll-mouths.

That doesn't work. Then they just say "Well, obviously people pirated it," and go on their merry way.

Pretentious Old Man.
1st Sep 2010, 15:40
That doesn't work. Then they just say "Well, obviously people pirated it," and go on their merry way.

Give 'em the old Mobile Vulgus treatment. Pitchforks and burning hay bales are the only way.

Blade_hunter
2nd Sep 2010, 21:51
Well thanks WS and for the support, but the best thing is trying to make your perfectionist vision of your ideal (DX like game) with modern technology.

jd10013
4th Sep 2010, 12:08
Alright. How would you say that the design decision is a bad one without getting sued?

Saying that's not how he'd done it is about as much as he can criticize it without getting into any legal uncertainty.

I have no doubt that Spector's comments should be read as "this is a bad design".

or look at it this way, when asked about universal ammo in IW, spector pretty much said "Well, I wouldn't have made that design decision"

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 12:34
Anyone here attending PAX? Someone can go personally ask Spector for clarification. ;)

Donvermicelli
4th Sep 2010, 16:29
Bingo!
Here is a nice talk/lecture/presentation by Chris Hecker (the video on that page) on the whole rewards in games issue:
http://chrishecker.com/Achievements_Considered_Harmful%3F
(All in all it's a hefty 70 minutes, including him answering audience questions at the end - but worth it.)

Thanks for that link I think I found a good quote that would fit 90% of the games atm:


Why are you making games?

If you’re intentionally making dull games with variable ratio extrinsic motivators to separate people from their money, you have my pity. isn't this exactly what half of the games are about at present? Isn't this what started the idiotic vicious circle where sales drop and companies start doing this even more to improve sales?

JCpies
4th Sep 2010, 16:37
Its really upsetting, to see so many people acting like drug addicts. It almost seems as if many seem to think they dont even have the choice not to buy some computergame.

Welcome to the present day my friend, some people like yourself criticise and ignore marketing, many people however, blindly accept marketing and let it take over their minds. I fear the future of marketing, in Vexille, there are animated adverts along highways which follow ones car the entire way... O_O

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 16:50
Welcome to the present day my friend, some people like yourself criticise and ignore marketing, many people however, blindly accept marketing and let it take over their minds.
And some people pay no heed either way...

JCpies
4th Sep 2010, 16:51
And some people pay no heed either way...

And some people take drugs, but that's a different story.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
4th Sep 2010, 16:58
Hehe, for sure. We won't go there, will we... :D

Pretentious Old Man.
4th Sep 2010, 17:50
sad face.

PenguinsFriend
9th Sep 2010, 18:20
^^ I thoroughly enjoyed Alpha Protocol, to be honest. Yes, it was a little rough around the edges, but for the most part it's faults were in it's execution, not in it's scope - and as I've said on these forums many times before, I'd rather a game reached for the moon and fell slightly short than set a low target and meet it. Alpha Protocol, for all it's faults, is still one of the deepest RPGs to be released in the past few years - which admittedly says bad things about the state of the RPG industry, but you've got to thank AP for at least trying! I think it's criminal that it won't be getting a sequel, because now they've got the basics in place, they could've spent more time refining and polishing a sequel, and it could've been superb.

In short, I'd really recommend buying it. It's not all that expensive now on Amazon etc.

Did you ever play Beyond Good & Evil?

Ashpolt
9th Sep 2010, 23:18
^^ I have it on Steam, but haven't got around to playing it yet. I am aware this is a terrible gaming sin, and I intend to play it...at some point. Starcraft 2 is taking pretty much all of my gaming time atm.