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Gordon_Shea
19th Aug 2010, 09:46
Deux Ex Human Revolution Wows us With Incredible Gameplay Options
Eidos Montreal shows us a new level at Gamescom. Three times, in fact.

When we last spoke with Warren Spector, director on the original Deus Ex, about what he hoped to see from Deus Ex: Human Revolution (the prequel he has nothing to do with), he said he wanted Eidos Montreal to retain the element of gameplay choice that fans loved so much about the original. After having seen a demo of Human Revolution at Gamescom today, we're eager to inform Warren that his hope has been met -- Human Revolution looks as if it may even surpass the original in terms of its depth and gameplay choices.

The demo we saw was actually shown to us three different times -- it's the same exact scenario, just played through with entirely different approaches. Here's the setup: about 90 minutes into the game, you're given the task of infiltrating the morgue at a police headquarters to retrieve a chip embedded in a dead terrorist's head. This terrorist is part of a group against transhumanism (people augmented with cybernetics, which is the product Sarif Industries, your in-game employer). But here's the catch: the terrorist himself has cybernetic implants. So he must be some sort of plant within the terrorist organization -- but a plant by who? The government? You're on a mission to find out, which is why it's imperative you get access to the morgue and get that chip.

You have a few different ways to reacquire the chip. The first we see is probably what many gamers will instinctively do -- blast their way inside. That's exactly what our demoer does; he basically runs in, guns blazing, and shows off some of the cool tactics at your disposal. As he makes his way through one of the police offices, he picks up a copy machine and throws it forward to use as cover. Once behind it, he's able to position himself to blindfire at cops (who are using their own desks as cover). We also see how you can use your X-ray vision augmentation, which highlights exactly where enemies are within the environment (we could see several waiting behind some cube walls).

After that, we get a demo of some weapon choices, like enhancing the pistol with explosive bullets (each weapon has multiple possible upgrades). Another cool example of this is the mine template -- a schematic that lets you combine a mine with any sort of grenade you have in your inventory. And if you were wondering, yes, there are also weapons that just stun your opponents instead of killing them. Anyway, our demoer makes his way through the station, unfortunately taking out plenty of cops along the way. He uses mines to disable sensors and eventually makes it to the morgue, gets the chip, and escapes out a lower exit into the sewers.

The level is then restarted. The next goal is to use communication skills to, essentially, charm your way inside. The neat thing about taking this route is that you talk to a lot of guards and learn a lot of the backstories between you and them. In one part, you have to convince an old cop friend to stick his neck out for you -- you have to remind him of your history together. It's still possible to "lose" this part -- if you're not convincing enough you'll have to resort to other means (see tactic 1) -- but in our case, the friend gives in and gives us the access we need. And though we don't spend time doing it, you can use your time in the station to find out all sorts of extra information (by digging through peoples' email at unmanned workstations). Anyway, it's relatively painless from then on to make it to the morgue, grab the chip, and walk out the front door. Without an army of policemen in the way, we're able to avoid the sewers altogether.

The third and final demo is all about stealth. Our demoer shows how you can walk to the back of the station, use a strength augmentation, then pick up a dumpster and place it next to the security fence to climb safely over. Not that you have to use a Strength Augmentation -- you can simply climb to the top of the roof and make your way in from there. But then you'd have to make your way through multiple floors before getting to the morgue, which seems a lot more difficult. Anyway, once inside, your Cloaking Augmentation makes you entirely invisible to the guards (in fact, if you're careful, you can even steal things off of their desks). However, at one point there's the need to bypass a security door to progress further, which requires you to hack into it. Normally, it would be impossible to break the code, but by using a Cranium Augmentation, your mental skills increase and you're able to break the code with a minigame of sorts (though I should stress it's more of a mind teaser than a time-button-pressing game -- it keeps you in the experience).

It's neat to see that, even with all of the Augmentations you have available, you can still assign augmentation points to specific skills. And each skill has its own tree, meaning there's going to be a lot of room to progress your character just the way you like. Another nifty demonstration in this stealth scenario involves a sequence in which a guard passes safely through a section with infrared lasers (because they're tuned to recognize him, turn off, and let him by unharmed ). By stunning and then carrying him, you can make it through this section without setting off any alarms as well. Also cool is the ability to disable cameras and infrared sensors using EMP grenades. With those tactics our demoer eventually makes it to the morgue, gets the chip, and then sneaks out through the sewers (to avoid backtracking all the way through the upper floors again).

So those are three disparate ways of obtaining the chip from the police station -- but as you can probably discern, each strategy can be deviated from at any time. Getting spotted while attempting stealth is likely to result in a firefight, as will getting into a heated face-off with one of the guards while attempting Persuasion. Just this small window into the choices and paths available in Human Revolution is enough to have me really excited about the gameplay possibilities in the full version. And that's without even discussing the incredible atmosphere and audio design that wowed us during this and the E3 preview. Few games have me excited as Deus Ex Human Revolution.
http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3180952

Skin
19th Aug 2010, 10:55
Sounds good :)

I wonder what they mean exactly when they say each skill has its own tree :confused:

Shinrei
19th Aug 2010, 11:04
sounds promising...and reminds of the strengths of DX1. Good to hear! :)

Ashpolt
19th Aug 2010, 11:12
This has already been posted elsewhere, but it's a good preview, so it deserves its own thread.

I'm going to divide my response into two parts, so those of you who are determined to moan at me for expressing a negative opinion about anything can simply skip that part of my post.

The positive part:

It's a great preview, and it certainly highlights the range of options for dealing with people. It's largely stuff we've heard before, but hearing it put in such forthright terms is a lot better than the fairly wishy-washy way this side of the game has been described before. It's also good to know that if you get in peacefully, the cops will talk to you, so they're not just anonymous cannon fodder in case you should happen to play things the run-and-gun way. Does this mean we might miss out on some side-quests if we play it run-and-gun? I hope so, it'd be nice to know there are rewards for not playing it as a straight-up shooter.

Also, do we reckon the guy whose body you're trying to get to could be the guy who you see shoot himself in the CG trailer?

Overall, this really was a positive preview.


The negative part:

Firstly, it's the police station example again. In more detail, yes, but still the same example. Can we please hear about something new? From what we know so far, you'd think the game was just Hong Kong, Adam's apartment and a police station. Obviously I don't want to hear too much about too many missions, but surely they could give us info about a few other gameplay sequences?

Secondly, and this is the part I know will really [slang for urine] some people off, so why I put this separately in the hope that those people won't be reading this part: every bit of good news I hear about this game makes the bad news worse. If it was all terrible, that'd be fine (in a way: it'd still be tarnishing the Deus Ex name) because I could just ignore the game and move on, safe in the knowledge that the game would be a failure and maybe in 5 years' time another company would pick up the IP and try again. But DXHR seems to be a fusion between some really great ideas and some really terrible ones - and yes, I'm mainly talking about the third person elements here when I say "terrible ideas" - which means half of me is excited to play this, and the other half knows that I'm going spend a good chunk of my time either bored or actively annoyed. I know people say "these elements won't ruin the game entirely" and that may be true, but personally I hope for more from Deus Ex - particularly a Deus Ex being made with today's technology - than "good but flawed," and unlike seemingly a lot of people I'm not willing to settle for just that. Played right, DXHR really could be the spark for a new wave of deep and complex gaming experiences, but it seems to be settling for going halfway towards that goal, and then stopping and doing whatever everyone else is doing.

tl;dr: This is good, why can't it all be good?

Gordon_Shea
19th Aug 2010, 11:38
Personally, I agree with you about third person. I think they either should have gone ahead and made the game primarily third person or kept it all in first person, but all this switching back and forth crap is a bad idea. Usually when games have multiple perspectives like that one of them suffers for it.

On the other hand, I love Deus Ex. It's one of my favorite games of all time despite inconsistent level design, atrocious voice acting, bad balance and awful art, and some big oversights in terms of believability (The ENTIRE MJ-12 complex goes to work in Jamie's office. And he doesn't notice?) Despite having all those flaws, it was still a classic.

I know you said that you're hoping for more than good but flawed, but I think that games like the original Deus Ex demonstrate that a game can be not just good, but can be a classic even in spite of having a lot of missteps or problems.

avenging_teabag
19th Aug 2010, 11:57
Also, do we reckon the guy whose body you're trying to get to could be the guy who you see shoot himself in the CG trailer?
Perhaps HE's Arie van Bruggen?


Firstly, it's the police station example again. In more detail, yes, but still the same example.
I really don't see it as a negative: giving away too much specific info, as you say yourself will surely bring us to spoilers, and I don't want to get spoiled for this game. And I'm too weak-willed to maintain a self-imposed media block, so I's rather they stick to the parts they've already shown, only maybe give us more details (gameplay details, not plot ones).


I know people say "these elements won't ruin the game entirely" and that may be true, but personally I hope for more from Deus Ex - particularly a Deus Ex being made with today's technology - than "good but flawed," and unlike seemingly a lot of people I'm not willing to settle for just that.
You see (and I say that as a person whose gaming life largely ended in 2002, so I can't say I know modern gaming industry at all), DE was flawed too. Part of its greatness - not all of it, but a significant part, I think - just kind of accidentally *happened*, despite these flaws. You can't plan to replicate that, or everyone would be churning out masterpieces by now. Even if they copied the original gameplay to a tee, it still wouldn't in any way guarantee the game turning out good, because the setting, the writing, the mood, the characters - they cannot be copied. We'd get a pale, washed-up shadow instead.

Ashpolt
19th Aug 2010, 12:35
On the other hand, I love Deus Ex. It's one of my favorite games of all time despite inconsistent level design, atrocious voice acting, bad balance and awful art, and some big oversights in terms of believability (The ENTIRE MJ-12 complex goes to work in Jamie's office. And he doesn't notice?) Despite having all those flaws, it was still a classic.

I know you said that you're hoping for more than good but flawed, but I think that games like the original Deus Ex demonstrate that a game can be not just good, but can be a classic even in spite of having a lot of missteps or problems.


You see (and I say that as a person whose gaming life largely ended in 2002, so I can't say I know modern gaming industry at all), DE was flawed too. Part of its greatness - not all of it, but a significant part, I think - just kind of accidentally *happened*, despite these flaws. You can't plan to replicate that, or everyone would be churning out masterpieces by now. Even if they copied the original gameplay to a tee, it still wouldn't in any way guarantee the game turning out good, because the setting, the writing, the mood, the characters - they cannot be copied. We'd get a pale, washed-up shadow instead.

....And that's why I put in the bit about "particularly a Deus Ex being made with today's technology."

Yes, Deus Ex was flawed, and yes, to a degree some of those flaws added to it's charm - I'm not denying any of that. The thing is though, a lot (if not all) of Deus Ex's flaws stemmed from the technological limits at the time - technological limits which don't exist any more.

It's more than that though: Deus Ex's flaws, whether through technological limits, budgetary reasons, lack of programmer skill in certain areas (gasp!) or whatever were not intentional: if you asked Warren Spector "Why was the AI in Deus Ex so terrible?" he'd give you an answer involving running out of budget, limited processing power, or whatever.

What I perceive to be DXHR's flaws, on the other hand, are by design. They're what Eidos Montreal want the game to be. They have actually sat down early in production and decided that flipping between two perspectives is a good idea, and that takedowns, cover-based gameplay, multi-kill augs, forced health regen and so on are in keeping with their vision of the Deus Ex experience. They could easily have changed these things - or at least given the player the option to turn them off (god knows we've been expressing our distaste for these elements on here for long enough, and since an early enough stage in development) - but they have made a conscious decision not to.

Deus Ex was, I feel, the best game it could have been at the time. DXHR, by contrast, is not - it may still be good, possibly even great, but it's made concessions to what is perceived as the current state of the industry (i.e. the perception that people won't buy any game that doesn't hold their hand constantly) and made what I consider to just be some outright poor gameplay decisions, so could be a lot better than it is.

In short: Deus Ex aimed incredibly high, and so missing that target ever so slightly is forgiveable. DXHR doesn't set it's bar that high in the first place, and so even if EM meet the standard they have set 100%, it's still going to be a disappointment compared to what could have been. They still could make a fantastic game here, but to do so they need to raise the bar, and not just satisfy themselves with meeting it.

Esnuk
19th Aug 2010, 12:40
By stunning and then carrying him, you can make it through this section without setting off any alarms as well.

This reminds me of Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory, and just the third mission where, at some point, the protagonist finds himself doing the same thing to switch over to the laser beams.

Irate_Iguana
19th Aug 2010, 12:42
Reading about talking to the cops once you entered the building was pretty interesting. Something that would have greatly disappointed me if it wasn't available. On the other hand the title of the article "Deux Ex Human Revolution Wows us With Incredible Gameplay Options" was false. They showed three paths that one should no more than expect in a DX game. If that is all there is to the mission I would even say that you are pretty constraint in your approaches.

DeusWhatever
19th Aug 2010, 12:55
I have to admit it sounds nice, still i have one problem with this:

If i can just run and gun my way trough it effortless, why would i use the stealth aproach knowing that it takes much longer, and also knowing that even if i get caught i would have absolutely no problem just killing every1? Dont get me wrong, but i simply have a problem with doing things just for the heck of it without any real purpose, or is there one i havent found yet?

Also with cloaking, does stealth come down to just use cloak and run arround from one save spot to the next to reload the cloaking-power?

So i guess my question is, is there any purpose being stealthy, or is there at least a difficulty level that requires the stealth-approach?

WildcatPhoenix
19th Aug 2010, 13:03
Alright, here's my take on the article:

Positives

-Strength Augmentation. This is one of the augs I usually forget to install (I enjoy the melee in Deus Ex, so Combat Strength almost always trumps Microfibral Muscle), but I like that the designers are including "outside the box" solutions to problems using this augmentation. I hope they are fully commited to this throughout the game; I'd love to be able to use this aug to get creative in overcoming obstacles, i.e. moving dumpsters/crates to access hard-to-reach windows, building barriers in stairwells, pushing copy machines ahead of me for mobile cover, etc.

-E-mail. It's very encouraging to hear that computer stations will still have e-mail to read. I sincerely hope these will include non-critical dialogue between NPCs. I absolutely loved following Decker, Erin Todd, and Young through NYC, even though we never actually meet those characters. It made the gaming world feel bigger, like there were people living and fighting and dying outside of JC's narrow view of events.

-Skills. It sounds like some of the true believers were right; there do seem to be general "aug skill points" which you can apply to any augmentation, not just standard upgrade canisters. So it's basically a true combination of augs and skills, rather than an elimination of skills altogether. At least, if I'm interpreting this article correctly?

-Lasers. This seems to suggest that laser tripwires can be bypassed in some creative ways (I'll never forget the first time I accidentally pushed a crate into the laser beams in Deus and, instead of triggering the alarm, it blocked the beam and allowed me to pass!)

Negatives

-Did I read that you can "blindfire" over cover? This is undoubtedly another 3rd person camera switch, and one that I'm not fond of at all.

-Hacking Mini-game. Still pretty certain this element of the game is going to become obnoxious after one or two missions, and I love to hack in Deus, so I know I'm going to run into it a lot.


Overall this was a pretty positive article for me. I hope there is really as much opportunity to "miss" things as the reviewer suggests. It would be pretty damn cool to see EM allow you to bypass the top floors of this police station. Replayability is very important for me (I'm not gonna sink $50-60 on a game that I can beat in a couple of days and never touch again).

Ashpolt once again raises a very solid point- if only some of these things (most importantly, 3rd person cameras and takedowns) were optional, I think I would be much much much more excited about the prospects of DXHR.

avenging_teabag
19th Aug 2010, 13:23
It's more than that though: Deus Ex's flaws, whether through technological limits, budgetary reasons, lack of programmer skill in certain areas (gasp!) or whatever were not intentional
Oh, but they were, at least some of them. The swimming aim (which drove me batty through the first couple of missions), the absurdly overpowered Dragon Tooth (which I never used again after the first playthrough), the 3-seconds lag between an enemy seeing you and sounding the alarm, the ridiculous voiceacting were not there by accident. They did not lessen the overall experience, I think, because they're not really inherently bad - they're just conventions which work or don't depending on personal taste and on how well they're integrated into the gameplay system and the world. In DE, they largely worked.

Similarly, all the "flaws" of DXHR that you list, they're not bad in and of themselves. They may not be to your taste, and that's fair enough, but there's nothing wrong with them per se. It's all in the execution really: if all this stuff is done well and synchronized with the game mechanics, I see no cause to worry. Besides, all those features that you listed, they are really just frills: in my opinion, the core of Deus Ex is a multi-path approach to missions and to building your character. This is what will make or break this here game is a Deus Ex game, I think, that unparalleled level of player's choice. That's why, imo the most worrying change is the one that you didn't even mention - the nixing of the skill system. That has the potential to severely limit player's options - I'm not saying that it necessarily will, but the possibility makes me uneasy. From this preview, it seems like they nailed multiple approaches to missions, but if I won't get the freedom to build my Adam the way I like, I won't be entirely satisfied. That, for me, is the essence of what a Deus Ex game is, as long as these two parts are intact, I don't give a hoot in what perspective the takedowns are performed. My opinion, of course.

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 13:26
-Skills. It sounds like some of the true believers were right; there do seem to be general "aug skill points" which you can apply to any augmentation, not just standard upgrade canisters. So it's basically a true combination of augs and skills, rather than an elimination of skills altogether. At least, if I'm interpreting this article correctly?


For me, there is still a problem with this. The concept of a skill is something you learn with your mind and your body. Unless every "skill augmentation" is explained to come with a brain implant (it's gonna get awfully crowded in there), I'm never going to accept this system fully. Mechanical augmentations are always going to be limited by the mental capacity of the person using them.

Xenoc
19th Aug 2010, 13:27
Good preview and some good info!

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 13:33
I really don't see it as a negative: giving away too much specific info, as you say yourself will surely bring us to spoilers, and I don't want to get spoiled for this game. And I'm too weak-willed to maintain a self-imposed media block, so I's rather they stick to the parts they've already shown, only maybe give us more details (gameplay details, not plot ones).

This is my opinion as well. Yes, I hunger for new information and new scenarios just as much as anybody. But then my intellect kicks in and I say, "No! Thank the Lords of Kobol they've guarded so much of this game from us." I appreciate that they've stuck to the Tong mission and the Police Station.

Yeah, a part of me grows more desperate every time I see it's the same two scenarios over and over again. But honestly, I prefer that over more spoilers.

Now, deeper information on gameplay mechanics I ABSOLUTELY want! I want to know of these stunguns, and the landmines. I want to know more about the Hacking Minigame and the persuasion thing. But I'm thankful they're keeping the story, cities and missions so tightly wrapped.

I have had games truly ruined for me because they gave away far too much information.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 13:34
@teabag: Actually, I somewhat disagree. For me, what made Deus Ex stand out more than the multi-path nature to it was its awesome story, characterisation, and interaction with communications systems within the world, to help flesh out other characters. Admittedly, multi-path progression is nice and all, probably the second most important thing for me, but I honestly do prefer a cerebral, clever, and above all plausible story above and beyond all.

xsamitt
19th Aug 2010, 13:36
This is my opinion as well. Yes, I hunger for new information and new scenarios just as much as anybody. But then my intellect kicks in and I say, "No! Thank the Lords of Kobol they've guarded so much of this game from us." I appreciate that they've stuck to the Tong mission and the Police Station.

Yeah, a part of me grows more desperate every time I see it's the same two scenarios over and over again. But honestly, I prefer that over more spoilers.

Now, deeper information on gameplay mechanics I ABSOLUTELY want! I want to know of these stunguns, and the landmines. I want to know more about the Hacking Minigame and the persuasion thing. But I'm thankful they're keeping the story, cities and missions so tightly wrapped.

I have had games truly ruined for me because they gave away far too much information.


I agree which is why I haven't looked at the leaked footage,and I prefer not to read parts of interviews that give me,what I feel is a little to much detail.

xsamitt
19th Aug 2010, 13:39
^^Actually, I somewhat disagree. For me, what made Deus Ex stand out more than the multi-path nature to it was its awesome story, characterization, and interaction with communications systems within the world, to help flesh out other characters. Admittedly, multi-path progression is nice and all, probably the second most important thing for me, but I honestly do prefer a cerebral, clever, and above all plausible story above and beyond all.

Truer words were never spoken.Amen.:thumb:

WildcatPhoenix
19th Aug 2010, 13:41
^^Actually, I somewhat disagree. For me, what made Deus Ex stand out more than the multi-path nature to it was its awesome story, characterisation, and interaction with communications systems within the world, to help flesh out other characters. Admittedly, multi-path progression is nice and all, probably the second most important thing for me, but I honestly do prefer a cerebral, clever, and above all plausible story above and beyond all.

Exactly. I strongly disagree that the "core of Deus Ex is the multi-path gameplay." I don't think Deus Ex works in third person. I don't think it works with cutscenes.

The whole point of multi-path gameplay is immersion, after all. It's supposed to simulate real life, where you have complete freedom to tackle an obstacle or problem. The real world doesn't force you to follow one single, linear pathway, and so Deus Ex was successful because it came closer to simulating that freedom of choice than any other game I've played before (or since).

But the story....the story was what captured my imagination and has kept me coming back for a decade and counting. And to truly get into that story, to really feel like I was JC Denton fighting against a massive conspiracy rather than just some high school kid playing a video game, I had to be immersed in the gaming world. I had to be seeing all of these events through my own eyes, not looking over the shoulder of some digital avatar. I didn't care about what "uber l33t kewlz" augmentation moves looked like. I cared about their result. I cared that, if I chose to break this terrorist's neck, what would be the consequences?

That, in my opinion, is the core of Deus Ex. Choice and consequence, immersion, story.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 13:45
Beautifully put. Here's hoping that DX3's story isn't the puerile crap that IW's was.

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 13:47
I didn't care about what "uber l33t kewlz" augmentation moves looked like. I cared about their result.

Perfectly described. Thank you.
This is exactly the same thought I had, even playing it for the first time.

Edit: As for the rest of the post: I don't think I could have put it better myself.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 13:58
@teabag: Actually, I somewhat disagree. For me, what made Deus Ex stand out more than the multi-path nature to it was its awesome story, characterisation, and interaction with communications systems within the world, to help flesh out other characters. Admittedly, multi-path progression is nice and all, probably the second most important thing for me, but I honestly do prefer a cerebral, clever, and above all plausible story above and beyond all.

This very much mirrors my own feelings. Though, I certainly need to stress that multi-path is hugely important as well. But it wasn't multi-path that drew me back to the game again and again. It was the world, the story, the characters.

I'd be sitting there, doing whatever, and an eerie shadow would seep into my soul. And with it would come a nostalgic longing. It would take me a moment to realize it was Deus Ex calling me back to the warmth of its embrace. The DX universe wanted me back at its teat, and I found that I did too.

This would happen more or less every six months after beating the game again.

Mindmute
19th Aug 2010, 14:08
They showed three paths that one should no more than expect in a DX game. If that is all there is to the mission I would even say that you are pretty constraint in your approaches.

I'm going to have to agree.
The way it was described, it feels like the paths are fixed and very linear (this is the stealth way, this is the combat way, this is the social way).

Compare this to Liberty Island. There, even if you chose to do purely combat or stealth, you'd have multiple approaches to accomplish your goal on both of those choices. The way the article puts it, seems like you simply have the choice to use combat, stealth or persuasion (or some combination of the three) and then within those paths there seems to be very little possible variation.


For me, there is still a problem with this. The concept of a skill is something you learn with your mind and your body. Unless every "skill augmentation" is explained to come with a brain implant (it's gonna get awfully crowded in there), I'm never going to accept this system fully. Mechanical augmentations are always going to be limited by the mental capacity of the person using them.

Meh... That doesn't bother me, to be honest, you have the arms but you're still learning how to use them. The tie-in between the skills and augs could simply be considered that.



What does bother me is that, like Ashpolt and most others said, the game could be shaping up to be a great game IN SPITE OF some (many) of the design choices we've seen so far. I'd love to see the game it'd become without those choices.

Ashpolt
19th Aug 2010, 14:28
Oh, but they were, at least some of them. The swimming aim (which drove me batty through the first couple of missions), the absurdly overpowered Dragon Tooth (which I never used again after the first playthrough), the 3-seconds lag between an enemy seeing you and sounding the alarm, the ridiculous voiceacting were not there by accident. They did not lessen the overall experience, I think, because they're not really inherently bad - they're just conventions which work or don't depending on personal taste and on how well they're integrated into the gameplay system and the world. In DE, they largely worked.

The "swimming aim" was part of the RPG nature of the game, it wasn't a fault - judging Deus Ex as an FPS would be a fault. The dragon tooth was overpowered, sure, but not to the same degree as multi-kill augs. The bad AI in general was not "as designed:" the particular example you give may have been, but that would have been done to make up for slightly clunky line-of-sight detection, in itself a technical limitation. The voice acting was bad simply because back in 2000 very few decent voice actors were willing to work on videogames.


Similarly, all the "flaws" of DXHR that you list, they're not bad in and of themselves. They may not be to your taste, and that's fair enough, but there's nothing wrong with them per se.

No, there is nothing wrong with them per se - I've enjoyed other games using these mechanics - but they're not fitting with the deep immersion that Deus Ex was about, particularly the constant perspective shifts between first and third person.


It's all in the execution really: if all this stuff is done well and synchronized with the game mechanics, I see no cause to worry.

If it's synchronised with the rest of the game mechanics - or rather, if the rest of the game is made to synchronise with these mechanics - then that's exactly the time to worry, because that's the time when it has ceased to be Deus Ex and become another generic action game.


Besides, all those features that you listed, they are really just frills: in my opinion, the core of Deus Ex is a multi-path approach to missions and to building your character. This is what will make or break this here game is a Deus Ex game, I think, that unparalleled level of player's choice.

This is something loads of people (and the developers, frequently) have said, but you can't strip a game down to just its core. Everything around the core is also important.

Anyway, I don't want to bring up the same arguments again (hence my "please ignore this if you disagree with it" first post in this thread) so I'm going to leave this discussion here.

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 14:29
Meh... That doesn't bother me, to be honest, you have the arms but you're still learning how to use them. The tie-in between the skills and augs could simply be considered that.


If adding aug-skill points doesn't in fact add new functionality, only increased proficiency, I may accept it. But then what's the point of not having a classic skill point system? I mean, it seems that a major theme is transhumanism and whether this is good or not. Splitting them up would make more sense, since then you could actually choose.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 14:33
The "swimming aim" was part of the RPG nature of the game, it wasn't a fault

Nah! It was a fault. It sucked ass.

Mindmute
19th Aug 2010, 14:35
Splitting them up would make more sense, since then you could actually choose.

I'd agree there, as it could serve as another meta-game metaphore about the virtues of not augmenting yourself. Possibly even making some players think they're using a crutch if they fully enhance themselves, or making the statement that moderation is good in everything.
The augs can fill in where human limits apply and vice-versa.

And to clear my statement, I said it doesn't bother me, based on the idea that the skill points won't give drastic changes to the already existing augmentations (just , for example, moving faster, easier, quieter, jumping higher, etc). If they do more than just enhancing the way those already work then I'm going to agree with you that the system doesn't make sense.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 15:00
Nah! It was a fault. It sucked ass.

I admit that it was a little violent, but how steady could you aim whilst treading water?

avenging_teabag
19th Aug 2010, 15:04
Anyway, I don't want to bring up the same arguments again (hence my "please ignore this if you disagree with it" first post in this thread) so I'm going to leave this discussion here.
Fair enough, I came a little late to the party, and I understand. No hard feelings.

avenging_teabag
19th Aug 2010, 15:10
@teabag: Actually, I somewhat disagree. For me, what made Deus Ex stand out more than the multi-path nature to it was its awesome story, characterisation, and interaction with communications systems within the world, to help flesh out other characters. Admittedly, multi-path progression is nice and all, probably the second most important thing for me, but I honestly do prefer a cerebral, clever, and above all plausible story above and beyond all.
Oh, I don't disagree, the story is hugely important - the DE story, while it got a little absurd by the end with all the conspiracies piled on top of one another and clones in jars, was generally clever and captivating by videogame standards. The characters though, are the matter where the original could do with a lot of improvement. For me though, the gameplay and character building are paramount. My opinion.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 15:14
I admit that it was a little violent, but how steady could you aim whilst treading water?

I'm a freakin' fish, mate. My aim would be spot on. So... maybe I'm a spotted fish.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 15:16
If adding aug-skill points doesn't in fact add new functionality, only increased proficiency, I may accept it. But then what's the point of not having a classic skill point system? I mean, it seems that a major theme is transhumanism and whether this is good or not. Splitting them up would make more sense, since then you could actually choose.

Increased skill with something can result in new tricks, e.g., skateboarding. And as for the strength aug, the skills - e.g., lifting things, less recoil. That's not really new functionality, that's just having more effects from your increased strength.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 15:30
I'm a freakin' fish, mate. My aim would be spot on. So... maybe I'm a spotted fish.

It's amazing what you can not know about someone when you speak to them over the internet.

Wait, DID YOU KILL STEVE IRWIN!!!?!?!?!

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 15:45
Funny you should mention that...

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 15:49
funny you should mention that...

GET THE **** AWAY FROM ME!!!!!!!!!!!

(seriously, why does this site not allow continuous CAPS?)

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 15:54
GET THE **** AWAY FROM ME!!!!!!!!!!!

(seriously, why does this site not allow continuous CAPS?)

I'm closer than you think.

http://media.rd.com/rd/images/rdc/mag0709/boss-spying-on-you-01-af.jpg

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 15:55
http://www.mikelawton.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/scream.gif

luminar
19th Aug 2010, 16:14
Skills in the first game basically allowed you to make your playstyle usable. If you wanted to sneak around and melee people you pretty much had to have a high skill in melee weapons in order for it to be viable. I hope augmentations can do this in HR. Thus eliminating the fear that stealth, social, hacking options are basically just alternatives with no real rewards/penaltys. (For example with high hacking skill you could read emails, turn security, and learn the backstory at the expense of being weak in other areas. I find it telling that their breaking up the gameplay into categorys, granted this could be for the benefit of those who havent played deus ex and thus dont know about the options it gave you, but I really hope it doesnt turn into a "Choose a door" type gameplay choice where each door leads to exactly the same place.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 16:18
Skills in the first game basically allowed you to make your playstyle usable. If you wanted to sneak around and melee people you pretty much had to have a high skill in melee weapons in order for it to be viable. I hope augmentations can do this in HR. Thus eliminating the fear that stealth, social, hacking options are basically just alternatives with no real rewards/penaltys. (For example with high hacking skill you could read emails, turn security, and learn the backstory at the expense of being weak in other areas. I find it telling that their breaking up the gameplay into categorys, granted this could be for the benefit of those who havent played deus ex and thus dont know about the options it gave you, but I really hope it doesnt turn into a "Choose a door" type gameplay choice where each door leads to exactly the same place.

With a low hacking skill you could read emails, turn security, and learn the backstory. Hell my computers skill was always at the lowest level, since all leveling up did was make me hack more quickly, and since the hacking... counter kept resetting after a minute I could read a few sentences of an email, log out, go have some yoghurt, and read some more. And turning off turrets only took 3 clicks.

luminar
19th Aug 2010, 16:21
True enough, perhaps this was a flaw of that system that should be addressed. Although I always felt rushed to read the emails before I was locked out.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 16:36
True enough, perhaps this was a flaw of that system that should be addressed. Although I always felt rushed to read the emails before I was locked out.

You're not alone. I hated the time limit on how long you could be in the system. I'm a slow reader, and I had a terrible time getting through those things before it kicked me out. That's why I always did upgrade my Computer Skills to their max.

Gordon_Shea
19th Aug 2010, 16:52
Couldn't you just copy the text out of the email body and into your notes tab? I seem to remember doing that for some of the long plotty ones towards the end.

WildcatPhoenix
19th Aug 2010, 16:56
You're not alone. I hated the time limit on how long you could be in the system. I'm a slow reader, and I had a terrible time getting through those things before it kicked me out. That's why I always did upgrade my Computer Skills to their max.

Isn't this the point, though? Supposed to simulate the security systems tracking down an intrusion? The more skill, the longer it takes the system to boot you out.

luminar
19th Aug 2010, 17:25
Isn't this the point, though? Supposed to simulate the security systems tracking down an intrusion? The more skill, the longer it takes the system to boot you out.

Exactly so if you wanted to read the emails and thus get more backstory and such you needed to have a higher hacking skill. It was a reward/penalty and a choice which is missing from most games which have just reward and the illusion of choice.

Unstoppable
19th Aug 2010, 17:45
I read the preview and am glad to see that the game is getting positive vibe from the community and not blind hype like Invisible War was.

Shralla
19th Aug 2010, 18:02
I was excited about this preview until I got to the third line or wherever when they said it was the same goddamn morgue example Dugas has given journalists a million and a half times already. I guess it's neat that they finally saw it in action though. Still reading it.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 18:24
Isn't this the point, though? Supposed to simulate the security systems tracking down an intrusion? The more skill, the longer it takes the system to boot you out.

You'd think the security system might notice an external user accessing their files for 30 seconds... 15 times in a row.

ZakKa89
19th Aug 2010, 18:41
Why didn't I see this? : ( Press always gets the good stuff

The Monochrome Man
19th Aug 2010, 19:46
-Strength Augmentation. This is one of the augs I usually forget to install (I enjoy the melee in Deus Ex, so Combat Strength almost always trumps Microfibral Muscle), but I like that the designers are including "outside the box" solutions to problems using this augmentation. I hope they are fully commited to this throughout the game; I'd love to be able to use this aug to get creative in overcoming obstacles, i.e. moving dumpsters/crates to access hard-to-reach windows, building barriers in stairwells, pushing copy machines ahead of me for mobile cover, etc.

Don't know if you saw the leak, but if you did, consider this approach :

The second crate that Adam picks up should be small enough to take back out the 'hole in the wall'. Stack in on top of the first crate, and you now have an improvised ladder. Use this to climb on top of the perimeter fencing. From there, you should be able to jump on to the roof of the computer building, crouch walk* over to the camera, and disable it without raising the alarm**.

*assumes that you can't go prone, which would be the ideal. I'm making this assumption based on the height of the air duct seen later on.

**assumes the guy at the computer doesn't react to one of his camera's suddenly dying. If he does this could get messy. If the AI's that competent then I'd try dropping the smaller crate (get it over using the LAM climbing technique from the first game) in front of his door to trap him in the building. If he calls for help, even better, as it means there are fewer guards to slip past elsewhere. If he just climbs out the window, all bets are off.

This looks like it could be good. The problem is that there's a lot of parameters we don't have - how intelligently do the AI react to your presence? If they only react to you directly or to thrown ferns/basketballs/trashbags, we're looking at classic Deus Ex play. If they respond to more besides (camera malfunctions, round robin radio checks, etc) then this will definitely be in the running for GOTY.

Dr_Bob
19th Aug 2010, 21:26
I have to admit it sounds nice, still i have one problem with this:

If i can just run and gun my way trough it effortless, why would i use the stealth aproach knowing that it takes much longer, and also knowing that even if i get caught i would have absolutely no problem just killing every1? Dont get me wrong, but i simply have a problem with doing things just for the heck of it without any real purpose, or is there one i havent found yet?

Also with cloaking, does stealth come down to just use cloak and run arround from one save spot to the next to reload the cloaking-power?

So i guess my question is, is there any purpose being stealthy, or is there at least a difficulty level that requires the stealth-approach?

You will get experience points for stealth.


Don't know if you saw the leak, but if you did, consider this approach :

The second crate that Adam picks up should be small enough to take back out the 'hole in the wall'. Stack in on top of the first crate, and you now have an improvised ladder. Use this to climb on top of the perimeter fencing. From there, you should be able to jump on to the roof of the computer building, crouch walk* over to the camera, and disable it without raising the alarm**.

*assumes that you can't go prone, which would be the ideal. I'm making this assumption based on the height of the air duct seen later on.

**assumes the guy at the computer doesn't react to one of his camera's suddenly dying. If he does this could get messy. If the AI's that competent then I'd try dropping the smaller crate (get it over using the LAM climbing technique from the first game) in front of his door to trap him in the building. If he calls for help, even better, as it means there are fewer guards to slip past elsewhere. If he just climbs out the window, all bets are off.

This looks like it could be good. The problem is that there's a lot of parameters we don't have - how intelligently do the AI react to your presence? If they only react to you directly or to thrown ferns/basketballs/trashbags, we're looking at classic Deus Ex play. If they respond to more besides (camera malfunctions, round robin radio checks, etc) then this will definitely be in the running for GOTY.

Just thinking about all the different approaches gets my imagination buzzing.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 21:33
You will get experience points for stealth.

And you can die in as little as two shots, so stealth tactics will keep you alive.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 21:38
And you can die in as little as two shots, so running to a wall, mashing the cover button, and waiting for health to regenerate will keep you alive. Repeat ad infinitum.

Fix'd. Sorry, couldn't resist temptation.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 21:44
Fix'd. Sorry, couldn't resist temptation.

According to Dugas, sitting behind cover waiting to heal will get you killed. Best to play it smart from the beginning, and not get shot at all. This isn't Gears of War.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 21:45
According to Dugas, sitting behind cover waiting to heal will get you killed. Best to play it smart from the beginning, and not get shot at all. This isn't Gears of War.

Ah, yes, zis is dEEus Ex, no?

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 21:51
Ah, yes, zis is dEEus Ex, no?

Hopefully.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 21:53
Hopefully.

I mistrust a man who can't even pronounce the name of his own franchise properly. I guess I'm just a congenital pronunciation snob.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 22:00
I mistrust a man who can't even pronounce the name of his own franchise properly. I guess I'm just a congenital pronunciation snob.

Latin is a pain, and French Canadians are silly.

Dead-Eye
19th Aug 2010, 22:40
So i guess my question is, is there any purpose being stealthy, or is there at least a difficulty level that requires the stealth-approach?
You don't have to kill anybody.

Pretentious Old Man.
19th Aug 2010, 23:38
Latin is a pain, and French Canadians are silly.

French is based on Latin as a language. Which makes it even worse that Dugas can't pronounce a Latin phrase.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 23:42
French is based on Latin as a language. Which makes it even worse that Dugas can't pronounce a Latin phrase.

French sounds a lot different. And, his is Quebecois French, which to put it simply, is weird.

Also it's not day-us ex, technically. It's deh-us.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 23:44
French is based on Latin as a language. Which makes it even worse that Dugas can't pronounce a Latin phrase.

Most languages are based on Latin. Doesn't mean my pronunciation of Harry Potter spells are going to be spot on.

IOOI
19th Aug 2010, 23:57
With a low hacking skill you could read emails, turn security, and learn the backstory. Hell my computers skill was always at the lowest level, since all leveling up did was make me hack more quickly, and since the hacking... counter kept resetting after a minute I could read a few sentences of an email, log out, go have some yoghurt, and read some more. And turning off turrets only took 3 clicks.

You meant Level 3 Computer skill, right!? Which wasn't that low. Since with that skill level you could control turrets and cash on 100% of ATMs money. That means you were on a route to become a "hacking expert".
Just to remember, here's a page with information about how skills and augs worked in Deus Ex (http://www.ps2fantasy.com/games/deus_ex/guides/deusex.html).

pringlepower
20th Aug 2010, 00:05
You meant Level 3 Computer skill, right!? Which wasn't that low. Since with that skill level you could control turrets and cash on 100% of ATMs money. That means you were on a route to become a "hacking expert".
Just to remember, here's a page with information about how skills and augs worked in Deus Ex (http://www.ps2fantasy.com/games/deus_ex/guides/deusex.html).

Ah, well I stand corrected. I just added in the turret thing randomly, I never really bothered with turning them off, since sticking a metal box in front of my face tricked cameras into thinking I wasn't there, and that metal boxes could move on their own locomotion.

Jerion
20th Aug 2010, 00:08
According to Dugas, sitting behind cover waiting to heal will get you killed. Best to play it smart from the beginning, and not get shot at all. This isn't Gears of War.

Yeah, the enemy won't sit around waiting for you to heal, they'll actively work on taking you down the very second you give them the opportunity. This is how it was explained to me originally.

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 00:59
Also it's not day-us ex, technically. It's deh-us.

It's always nice to see someone fighting the good fight with Latin pronunciation. :flowers:

Addendum: the "u" in "us" is fairly close to the "oo" sound in "boo!", only short...

pringlepower
20th Aug 2010, 01:11
It's always nice to see someone fighting the good fight with Latin pronunciation. :flowers:

Addendum: the "u" in "us" is fairly close to the "oo" sound in "boo!", only short...

And mother said my high school Latin was a waste of taxpayer money!

Not that it really matters how well we pronounce the name. Ion Storm only chose it because they thought it sounded cool (really!)

Pinky_Powers
20th Aug 2010, 01:11
You tossers are acting like you're fighting a terrible diaper rash.

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 01:27
And mother said my high school Latin was a waste of taxpayer money!


Bah! Latin is as close to a "root" language, for western languages, as we are likely to find. Practically all modern western languages have words that can be traced to Latin. That kind of knowledge is never a waste. It may not always be useful, but it is never a waste.

And you can tell her I said that. ;)

pringlepower
20th Aug 2010, 01:30
Bah! Latin is as close to a "root" language, for western languages, as we are likely to find. Practically all modern western languages have words that can be traced to Latin. That kind of knowledge is never a waste. It may not always be useful, but it is never a waste.

And you can tell her I said that. ;)

And it's allowed me to have a nice conversation with a Swede.

Pinky_Powers
20th Aug 2010, 07:14
And it's allowed me to have a nice conversation with a Swede.

You should go and join the Others on the Lost island.

beastrn
20th Aug 2010, 07:46
Ashpolt, I'm glad you exist. Keep fighting the good fight, man.

Though very doubtful, maybe one day people will clue up.

Pretentious Old Man.
20th Aug 2010, 13:02
I never said it was pronounced "day", I said it wasn't pronounced "dee". I agree, were we to write it phonetically, "deh" would be more accurate, but differences between "day" and "deh" are subtle, whereas differences between "dee" and "deh" are not. They are obvious, and annoying.

FrankCSIS
21st Aug 2010, 05:50
A thing on multi-paths; Their existence is not a purpose in itself, and showcasing them as a feature of its own would be missing the point.

Regardless of how well or not DX pulled it off, the idea behind multiple paths and possibilities, the actual reasoning as to why they were implemented in DX, is to ensure, as much as possible, that the solution which comes naturally to the player at the given time appears to be the natural path the game, and story, were meant to follow. If your reasoning, your natural approach, is thoroughly different to mine, the game should follow through with your decision as if it were the only logical one at the time, just as well.

The idea is not even replayability. That's a bonus, but one that doesn't fit in the equation of your engineered experience.

Which is why I always find silly the games which flat out tell you to chose between outcomes, or at least heavily hint at the options ahead. For ultimate results, I should barely see the options, if at all. Saving Paul or not was a gameplay moment which any game designer aiming to build this kind of experience should look into very closely. You can say, ultimately, that it didn't change much story-wise, but that's another topic entirely. The idea is that it was not even presented as a choice. Some listenned and left, others thought they ought to stay and see if they could make a difference. In both cases, the game simply followed through, without fanfare or trumpets.

I'm often served here that immersion is a personal variable. This kind of design proves how you can engineer immersion with fairly accurate results, regardless of the player's personal tastes. The thinking behind this offering of multiple paths demonstrated an understanding of how to build a moment, or an experience. I wonder if EM has figured that out, or if they're simply looking to showcase how many options they have. I haven't made a judgement yet, by the way, so don't think I'm pessimist about this. Seeing the depth of this one example, it can truly swing both ways right now, and that's somewhat exciting.

xsamitt
21st Aug 2010, 11:47
A thing on multi-paths; Their existence is not a purpose in itself, and showcasing them as a feature of its own would be missing the point.

Regardless of how well or not DX pulled it off, the idea behind multiple paths and possibilities, the actual reasoning as to why they were implemented in DX, is to ensure, as much as possible, that the solution which comes naturally to the player at the given time appears to be the natural path the game, and story, were meant to follow. If your reasoning, your natural approach, is thoroughly different to mine, the game should follow through with your decision as if it were the only logical one at the time, just as well.

The idea is not even replayability. That's a bonus, but one that doesn't fit in the equation of your engineered experience.

Which is why I always find silly the games which flat out tell you to chose between outcomes, or at least heavily hint at the options ahead. For ultimate results, I should barely see the options, if at all. Saving Paul or not was a gameplay moment which any game designer aiming to build this kind of experience should look into very closely. You can say, ultimately, that it didn't change much story-wise, but that's another topic entirely. The idea is that it was not even presented as a choice. Some listenned and left, others thought they ought to stay and see if they could make a difference. In both cases, the game simply followed through, without fanfare or trumpets.

I'm often served here that immersion is a personal variable. This kind of design proves how you can engineer immersion with fairly accurate results, regardless of the player's personal tastes. The thinking behind this offering of multiple paths demonstrated an understanding of how to build a moment, or an experience. I wonder if EM has figured that out, or if they're simply looking to showcase how many options they have. I haven't made a judgement yet, by the way, so don't think I'm pessimist about this. Seeing the depth of this one example, it can truly swing both ways right now, and that's somewhat exciting.


I couldn't agree more.I sincerely hope EM read this post.

Fluffis
21st Aug 2010, 12:47
Seconded. That was a very good post, FrankCSIS.

Pretentious Old Man.
21st Aug 2010, 13:10
Thirded. "Fanfare and Trumpets" as you put it Frank are a complete scourge on the modern game industry, necessary just in case a 12 year old can't tell where to go next, so gets annoyed with the game and doesn't buy the DLC.

FrankCSIS
21st Aug 2010, 13:38
A scourge of the modern industry, and I'd dare say even a flaw of RPGs considered to be of the Golden Era of gaming.

A game like Fallout 2, which I absolutely adore, would have presented the Paul issue in a dialogue choice with

A: Stay here and fight with me, at the risk of dying
B:Get out of here and save your skin

And so the player would have been introduced to the moral dilema of doing what's in the best interests of his character vs what morality commands him to do depending on whether Paul deserves to live or not.

This was, and still is, a heavy misconception of what interractivity is about. Choices and consequences are a byproduct of interractivity, not its foundations.

That's something DX only began to explore, something which I hoped would be expended tenforth in future games. Much to my regrets, it reverted completely the other way.

avenging_teabag
21st Aug 2010, 14:21
A thing on multi-paths; Their existence is not a purpose in itself, and showcasing them as a feature of its own would be missing the point.

Regardless of how well or not DX pulled it off, the idea behind multiple paths and possibilities, the actual reasoning as to why they were implemented in DX, is to ensure, as much as possible, that the solution which comes naturally to the player at the given time appears to be the natural path the game, and story, were meant to follow. If your reasoning, your natural approach, is thoroughly different to mine, the game should follow through with your decision as if it were the only logical one at the time, just as well.

The idea is not even replayability. That's a bonus, but one that doesn't fit in the equation of your engineered experience.

Which is why I always find silly the games which flat out tell you to chose between outcomes, or at least heavily hint at the options ahead. For ultimate results, I should barely see the options, if at all. Saving Paul or not was a gameplay moment which any game designer aiming to build this kind of experience should look into very closely. You can say, ultimately, that it didn't change much story-wise, but that's another topic entirely. The idea is that it was not even presented as a choice. Some listenned and left, others thought they ought to stay and see if they could make a difference. In both cases, the game simply followed through, without fanfare or trumpets.

I'm often served here that immersion is a personal variable. This kind of design proves how you can engineer immersion with fairly accurate results, regardless of the player's personal tastes. The thinking behind this offering of multiple paths demonstrated an understanding of how to build a moment, or an experience. I wonder if EM has figured that out, or if they're simply looking to showcase how many options they have. I haven't made a judgement yet, by the way, so don't think I'm pessimist about this. Seeing the depth of this one example, it can truly swing both ways right now, and that's somewhat exciting.
Excuse me, but I'm quoting this post in full just because it's so awesome. You said everything I think only 100% better:thumb:

Pinky_Powers
21st Aug 2010, 16:35
That was a great post FrankCSIS!

I hope you will allow me to make an observation that ties into your philosophizing...

Based on all the recent previews on the Police Station mission, it seems to me that EM's primary exhibit of multi-path gameplay perfectly matches the subtly of the Paul Denton incident. Let me explain:

You're given an objective, and there is no voice (according to all the previews) that directs you to all the possibilities. You probe, and allow your own character build to guide you.

If it occurs to you that persuading the desk clerk might even be an option, that will be the natural path a player might explore. If you do convince him, you go about your business freely. And without any warning or in-game hint, that simple strategy produces grave consequences later in the game (as we've been told by EM). The poor desk clerk loses his job and confronts you later.

This is choice and consequence that comes about completely naturally without any direction or suggestion from the game.

Every facet of the multi-path spoken of in the Police Station exists unannounced to the player. Their path is found solely by the urging of their morals and their character.

If they can keep this level of subtlety and choice throughout the whole game, Human Revolution will topple other games' attempts at this sort of thing. Mass Effect will look like a paint-by-number in comparison. :D

Blackbird SR-71C
21st Aug 2010, 22:56
A scourge of the modern industry, and I'd dare say even a flaw of RPGs considered to be of the Golden Era of gaming.

A game like Fallout 2, which I absolutely adore, would have presented the Paul issue in a dialogue choice with

A: Stay here and fight with me, at the risk of dying
B:Get out of here and save your skin

And so the player would have been introduced to the moral dilema of doing what's in the best interests of his character vs what morality commands him to do depending on whether Paul deserves to live or not.

This was, and still is, a heavy misconception of what interractivity is about. Choices and consequences are a byproduct of interractivity, not its foundations.

That's something DX only began to explore, something which I hoped would be expended tenforth in future games. Much to my regrets, it reverted completely the other way.


Just to clarify: So, are you saying that Deus Ex:HR is basically reducing interactions to choices and consequences, with little "pointless" interactivity on the side?

beastrn
22nd Aug 2010, 14:30
He's saying that the choices and consequences from DX (and most great immersive games) came naturally and of the players own ideas and exploration.

As opposed to DX:HR and other console, teenager aimed games, that explain to you in dot points the "different paths" you can take - and how by explaining those things it removes the players own ability to hunt them and and boils the concept of choice and consequence down to a binary "i'm going to do a stealth play or a kill play or a whatever play' without any room for interpretation.

WildcatPhoenix
22nd Aug 2010, 16:02
He's saying that the choices and consequences from DX (and most great immersive games) came naturally and of the players own ideas and exploration.

As opposed to DX:HR and other console, teenager aimed games, that explain to you in dot points the "different paths" you can take - and how by explaining those things it removes the players own ability to hunt them and and boils the concept of choice and consequence down to a binary "i'm going to do a stealth play or a kill play or a whatever play' without any room for interpretation.

This is what I'm afraid of, but I haven't seen enough evidence to prove that it's going to be the case with DXHR. I don't think every mission is going to come with a screen that reads:

Assault Objective: Make Bob Page's face 'splode.
Stealth Objective: Sneak around and whack Bob in the back o' the head.
Social Objective: Call Bob a nasty name, forcing him to kill himself in a fit of depression.

Dugas and others have been using terms like "the stealth route" and whatnot, but so far I'm (slightly) encouraged by the latest interviews. I think they really might have provided for creative problem solving. I don't yet see any evidence to suggest they will have everything spelled out in big, console-friendly letters. Not yet, at least...

Pinky_Powers
23rd Aug 2010, 03:52
I haven't seen one single instance where HR informs you of your options and makes you choose. This is what I made abundantly clear in my last post. The choices and consequences are completely unspoken in-game. They're just there, awaiting the player to be urged in one direction or the other. This subtly is one of the greatest virtues of Deus Ex, and I'm surprised to find it so richly present in HR as well.

beastrn is the perfect example of the silliest sort of creep imaginable. He points to the single most wonderful facet of Human Revoltuion and says "that there! Human Revolution sucks because it doesn't have that."

It's like saying Lord of the Rings sucks because it doesn't have any Hobbits or Elves or battles.

:mad2:

beastrn
23rd Aug 2010, 03:52
This is what I'm afraid of, but I haven't seen enough evidence to prove that it's going to be the case with DXHR. I don't think every mission is going to come with a screen that reads:

Assault Objective: Make Bob Page's face 'splode.
Stealth Objective: Sneak around and whack Bob in the back o' the head.
Social Objective: Call Bob a nasty name, forcing him to kill himself in a fit of depression.

Dugas and others have been using terms like "the stealth route" and whatnot, but so far I'm (slightly) encouraged by the latest interviews. I think they really might have provided for creative problem solving. I don't yet see any evidence to suggest they will have everything spelled out in big, console-friendly letters. Not yet, at least...

We can hope.

Problem is when you start thinking about their target audience. They're like baby lambs. They get lost if you don't pamper them for 2 seconds. With that in mind it's not hard to imagine they'd include simplistic guidance features.


I haven't seen one single instance where HR informs you of your options and makes you choose. This is what I made abundantly clear in my last post. The choices and consequences are completely unspoken in-game. They're just there, awaiting the player to be urged in one direction or the other. This subtly is one of the greatest virtues of Deus Ex, and I'm surprised to find it so richly present in HR as well.

beastrn is the perfect example of the silliest sort of creep imaginable. He points to the single most wonderful facet of Human Revoltuion and says "that there! Human Revolution sucks because it doesn't have that."

It's like saying Lord of the Rings sucks because it doesn't have any Hobbits or Elves or battles.

:mad2:

I love how you have absolutely nothing negative to say about my posts, so you put in a line of nonsense. I'm saying DXHR sucks because it's wonderful? I'm saying DXHR sucks because the way the choices are presented is so subtle and invokes a sense of freedom? Yeah, that makes sense. You're calling me silly because I (and some others around here) intelligently analyze the things that are, and could be, obviously wrong with DXHR and become worried about it. It's not like all of the trailers and interviews have been letting us know of "the big three choices" in the game, is it?

Clearly you aren't perceptive or experienced enough to extract the same amount of information from what's been shown so far that I have.

Pinky, you're the silly creep. And the problem is, everyone else is exactly like you. I can only hope that the game disappoints you, but I'm sure you're the type of person that loved Splinter Cell Conviction so unfortunately they could serve you a 3rd person shooter with yellow trails like Fable 2 and you'd say it's an amazing DX game.

It's like saying DXHR will be good because it completely abandons what made DX good in the first place.

:scratch:

xsamitt
23rd Aug 2010, 13:50
Does it get any better than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E80Ff8CTbvk&feature=related

demon boy
23rd Aug 2010, 14:28
Good preview. The game sounds very good so far. Honestly; I've heard enough. I think I've reached the point where there is nothing more to be gained by reading previews and seeing videos. I know that I like what I see and now I just have to wait for the release, confirm what I expect by reading reviews and then (hopefully) purchase and play the game.

For all of the people who can't seem to get past the 3d person stuff; it is what it is. I'm not crazy about it either but it will either work or it won't work. We won't really know until we try it. My personal preference would have been for the game to be fully 1st person but I do not assume that 3d person elements will automatically ruin the game.

beastrn
23rd Aug 2010, 15:10
Does it get any better than this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E80Ff8CTbvk&feature=related

Rarely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i214Bv5tPL4&feature=search

mad825
23rd Aug 2010, 15:14
Rarely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i214Bv5tPL4&feature=search
hmmmmm.
cR_7Gr6ANZM

beastrn
23rd Aug 2010, 15:18
Nice one

mWHu79H6kdM

o2idyeFWdmA

DeusWhatever
23rd Aug 2010, 16:03
1FjHAzpgEuw

Starcraft even sounds amazing covered ^^

Anasumtj
23rd Aug 2010, 18:15
I haven't seen one single instance where HR informs you of your options and makes you choose. This is what I made abundantly clear in my last post. The choices and consequences are completely unspoken in-game. They're just there, awaiting the player to be urged in one direction or the other. This subtly is one of the greatest virtues of Deus Ex, and I'm surprised to find it so richly present in HR as well.

I like you, dude. But what on Earth are you talking about.

You got a longer demo reel I haven't seen or sumthin'.

Pinky_Powers
23rd Aug 2010, 19:26
I like you, dude. But what on Earth are you talking about.

You got a longer demo reel I haven't seen or sumthin'.

I'm talking about the previews we've read, combined with the leaked footage. Basically, everything we know about the game.

Blackbird SR-71C
24th Aug 2010, 14:03
A scourge of the modern industry, and I'd dare say even a flaw of RPGs considered to be of the Golden Era of gaming.

A game like Fallout 2, which I absolutely adore, would have presented the Paul issue in a dialogue choice with

A: Stay here and fight with me, at the risk of dying
B:Get out of here and save your skin

And so the player would have been introduced to the moral dilema of doing what's in the best interests of his character vs what morality commands him to do depending on whether Paul deserves to live or not.

This was, and still is, a heavy misconception of what interractivity is about. Choices and consequences are a byproduct of interractivity, not its foundations.

That's something DX only began to explore, something which I hoped would be expended tenforth in future games. Much to my regrets, it reverted completely the other way.

While you are right to say that choices and consequences are not interactivity's foundations, you are wrong when calling them it's byproduct. When talking about interactivity in a game, you can split it up in two parts:

Interacting with the world
Interacting with the characters

Now you have to make a choice what/who to interact with, in what way, when etc. etc.
Each choice has consequences and therefore leads to something.

Therefore it is impossible to include a palette of interactions without having the player make choices.

Also, what's the difference in making the player choose between the assault path or the stealth path instead of giving the player some stealth weapons (crossbow, silenced pistol) or some assault weapons and corrsepongind augmentations? Are you trying to say that DX gave the player more freedom? Or that the choices weren't as obvious?

luminar
24th Aug 2010, 16:57
We can hope.

Problem is when you start thinking about their target audience. They're like baby lambs. They get lost if you don't pamper them for 2 seconds. With that in mind it's not hard to imagine they'd include simplistic guidance features.



I love how you have absolutely nothing negative to say about my posts, so you put in a line of nonsense. I'm saying DXHR sucks because it's wonderful? I'm saying DXHR sucks because the way the choices are presented is so subtle and invokes a sense of freedom? Yeah, that makes sense. You're calling me silly because I (and some others around here) intelligently analyze the things that are, and could be, obviously wrong with DXHR and become worried about it. It's not like all of the trailers and interviews have been letting us know of "the big three choices" in the game, is it?

Clearly you aren't perceptive or experienced enough to extract the same amount of information from what's been shown so far that I have.

Pinky, you're the silly creep. And the problem is, everyone else is exactly like you. I can only hope that the game disappoints you, but I'm sure you're the type of person that loved Splinter Cell Conviction so unfortunately they could serve you a 3rd person shooter with yellow trails like Fable 2 and you'd say it's an amazing DX game.

It's like saying DXHR will be good because it completely abandons what made DX good in the first place.

:scratch:

I loved conviction and still play it often. I know it's epically dumbed down and nothing like the other splinter cell games but I still enjoyed it! Same thing with assassins creed, it's dumb fun! I especially like the parkour type stuff.

Pretentious Old Man.
24th Aug 2010, 17:01
You're all wrong.

CgnVEU2ZzTI

Khaeru
24th Aug 2010, 17:22
You're all wrong.

CgnVEU2ZzTI

i like this one

wpLMe6TKFO0

Pretentious Old Man.
24th Aug 2010, 17:37
Does it not work in the window? :<

Khaeru
24th Aug 2010, 17:40
quote my post and get the code;)

Pretentious Old Man.
24th Aug 2010, 17:49
quote my post and get the code;)

Why thank you kind sir!

Khaeru
24th Aug 2010, 17:50
i meant the post with the youtube vid, if you quote it you'll see the right code you have to use

Pinky_Powers
24th Aug 2010, 22:23
:lol:

bukkit
27th Aug 2010, 12:58
You're all wrong.

CgnVEU2ZzTI

you are also wrong sir :)
s6Cjbxy0HuA

+ this theme is made by M.McCann, the same guy thats working on the DE:HR music. so im quite sure the DE:HR soundtrack will kick ass

Pretentious Old Man.
27th Aug 2010, 13:00
you are also wrong sir :)
s6Cjbxy0HuA

+ this theme is made by M.McCann, the same guy thats working on the DE:HR music. so im quite sure the DE:HR soundtrack will kick ass

Jeff Van Dyck > M.McCann.

I fear we may need to take this outside.

bukkit
27th Aug 2010, 13:02
Jeff Van Dyck > M.McCann.

I fear we may need to take this outside.

ou, its on !

xsamitt
27th Aug 2010, 13:28
Both these two pieces of music are quite good.I am more hopeful now with regard to the music.Thanks for sharing this.

Ilves
27th Aug 2010, 20:03
No Alex Brandon = missed opportunity. Then again, having Brandon on board would make for a soundtrack that has character, heaven forbid. :rolleyes: