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Slack
18th Aug 2010, 17:49
Skill Points: just come back. They will be back?


* Computers
* Electronics
* Environmental Training
* Lockpicking
* Medicine
* Swimming
* Weapons Skills

And add more skills like FIGHT or PARKOUR!!!

HACKING IS NOT A AUGMENTATION!!! SO Please, put HACKING in skills again.

Slack
18th Aug 2010, 17:55
up!

Ashpolt
18th Aug 2010, 17:58
Dude, you don't need to bump a thread after 6 minutes. These forums don't move anywhere near that fast.

Nonetheless, I agree with what you said. Skill points and augs are not the same thing, and one can't be used as a replacement for the other.

Also agree that I'd love to see a parkour aug. Freedom of movement in games is a huge thing for me.

Jerion
18th Aug 2010, 23:05
Parkour? That sounds more like an aug upgrade to me.

Ashpolt
18th Aug 2010, 23:22
Parkour? That sounds more like an aug upgrade to me.

As in, upgrade for the "run fast" aug? Could be. Basically, if there's an aug that enables me to get from A to B in some slightly more interesting way than walking, I'll take it!* (One of the reasons I love superhero games.)

[EDIT] *Unless it switches me into bastard third person, that is. In which case they can shove it.

pringlepower
18th Aug 2010, 23:25
As in, upgrade for the "run fast" aug? Could be. Basically, if there's an aug that enables me to get from A to B in some slightly more interesting way than walking, I'll take it!* (One of the reasons I love superhero games.)

[EDIT] *Unless it switches me into bastard third person, that is. In which case they can shove it.

Faith didn't need an aug.

And perfect compromise: second person! A sort of vision that constantly refers to the player as "you". Which I believe makes perfect sense.

mad825
18th Aug 2010, 23:44
HACKING IS NOT A AUGMENTATION!!! SO Please, put HACKING in skills again.

not according to Deus Ex:IW, hacking is an augmentation. :whistle:

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 00:27
Parkour? That sounds more like an aug upgrade to me.

I know some Parkour practitioners that may take issue with that. The one standing behind me, for instance. I condensed his rant to this: Parkour is about a state of mind. It's about adapting mentally and physically to a given situation. "Escape" is a prevalent thought for a true Parkour practitioner. It is as much a mental skill as a physical one.

Freerunning could, however, be an aug upgrade. It's about the movement itself, without the underlying current of "escape". It's more about the cool moves than the actual adaptation to situations.

Jerion
19th Aug 2010, 03:38
As in, upgrade for the "run fast" aug? Could be. Basically, if there's an aug that enables me to get from A to B in some slightly more interesting way than walking, I'll take it!* (One of the reasons I love superhero games.)

[EDIT] *Unless it switches me into bastard third person, that is. In which case they can shove it.

Well, there's no realistic way to suddenly make Adam have the mental prowess or knowledge to perform. So I think it would be upgrading the "run fast" aug to be able to handle more dexterous and straining maneuvers.

Fluffis: Freerunning, yes that might be the better term. That's more about acrobatics than simply negotiating the environment as fast as possible though. When it comes down to it, more rapid and dynamic movement from A to B is the point of this kind of hypothetical aug.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 03:42
Well, there's no realistic way to suddenly make Adam have the mental prowess or knowledge to perform. So I think it would be upgrading the "run fast" aug to be able to handle more dexterous and straining maneuvers.

Fluffis: Freerunning, yes that might be the better term. That's more about acrobatics than simply negotiating the environment as fast as possible though. When it comes down to it, more rapid and dynamic movement from A to B is the point of this kind of hypothetical aug.

The path of least resistance. AKA Mass Effect 2's Charge. That'll be popular.

Jerion
19th Aug 2010, 03:46
The path of least resistance. AKA Mass Effect 2's Charge. That'll be popular.

...Could you explain that to me? I never played ME2.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 03:50
...Could you explain that to me? I never played ME2.

There was a new biotic power added for Vanguards that allowed them to charge to an enemy, phasing through all obstacles in the way, and causing an explosion upon impact.

There was a lot of initial fan backlash at how this power made no sense.

Jerion
19th Aug 2010, 04:04
There was a new biotic power added for Vanguards that allowed them to charge to an enemy, phasing through all obstacles in the way, and causing an explosion upon impact.

There was a lot of initial fan backlash at how this power made no sense.

Yeah, that's different from what I have in mind here. I'm just thinking of how the arms and legs could be upgraded so the player has the ability to perform more complicated time-saving moves to traverse the environment. It would basically make the movement system more complex. What you describe would be a takedown.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 04:08
Yeah, that's different from what I have in mind here. I'm just thinking of how the arms and legs could be upgraded so the player has the ability to perform more complicated time-saving moves to traverse the environment. It would basically make the movement system more complex. What you describe would be a takedown.

Hell it's fun though. You should try ME2 and Charge one day.

Anyways that'd be really tough to implement, I mean Mirror's Edge was a whole game of that and they only managed a linear course.

Angel-A
19th Aug 2010, 04:22
Faith didn't need an aug.

And perfect compromise: second person! A sort of vision that constantly refers to the player as "you". Which I believe makes perfect sense.

Huh? I've never heard of second person... Can you please explain? How's it different from 1st and 3rd?

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 04:23
Huh? I've never heard of second person... Can you please explain? How's it different from 1st and 3rd?

Second person doesn't make sense visually I think. It's more a literary term describing a text that addresses the reader directly (calling the reader "you").

I'm just being stupid :P

Jerion
19th Aug 2010, 04:24
Huh? I've never heard of second person... Can you please explain? How's it different from 1st and 3rd?

1st person: Your own view
2nd Person: Over the shoulder
3rd Person: Hey, look at that guy/girl over there!

rokstrombo
19th Aug 2010, 05:54
Interesting ideas!

Shouldn't we be referring to the third person camera as a second person camera, because the player's viewpoint is fundamentally specific to the player?

Whereas a third person camera would be a hypothetical one because it can never be viewed.

Xenoc
19th Aug 2010, 08:27
As in, upgrade for the "run fast" aug? Could be. Basically, if there's an aug that enables me to get from A to B in some slightly more interesting way than walking, I'll take it!* (One of the reasons I love superhero games.)

[EDIT] *Unless it switches me into bastard third person, that is. In which case they can shove it.

Think mirrors edge parkour, that was in 1st person

Ashpolt
19th Aug 2010, 08:46
^^ Mirror's Edge style would be fantastic. I put in the comment about third person not because I thought it could only work that way, but simply because I know how fond Eidos Montreal are of sticking everything they possibly can in third person.

Red
19th Aug 2010, 09:06
Yeah, but it's COOL!

"Hey Adam, you think you could reach that spot (points to a cool spot for sniping on top of a building)?"
- "Of course. My parkour is augmented".

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 12:54
Yeah, that's different from what I have in mind here. I'm just thinking of how the arms and legs could be upgraded so the player has the ability to perform more complicated time-saving moves to traverse the environment. It would basically make the movement system more complex. What you describe would be a takedown.

But there we have a problem, don't we? For that to work as an augmentation concept, we'd have to have several augmentations. One of them would need to be some kind of equilibrium augmentation for the brain, for instance, as well as augmentations for at least the legs and arms. There would possibly need to be one for the torso as well, because some of the things those people do with their upper body take years of practice to do well. It doesn't matter if your mind is quick enough to perform these things, if your body can't keep up. Conversely, it doesn't matter if your body is able to perform amazing feats, if the mind can't direct it.

No... that kind of movement would need to be a "skill", for it to work. Or it would need to be one aug, and a leap of faith.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 14:17
1st person: Your own view
2nd Person: Over the shoulder
3rd Person: Hey, look at that guy/girl over there!

That's not really true. Over the shoulder is still 3rd person. There is no 2nd person.

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 14:24
That's not really true. Over the shoulder is still 3rd person. There is no 2nd person.

^^^This.

2nd person is strictly a literary narrative. It's a very hard thing to pull off, and not have it be completely confusing.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 15:21
It's a very hard thing to pull off, and not have it be completely confusing.

A terrible truth, this. I was struck by lightning at the age of ten, and ever since, I've lived every day in the 2nd person. I'm always deeply confused by what's going on.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 15:25
A terrible truth, this. I was struck by lightning at the age of ten, and ever since, I've lived every day in the 2nd person. I'm always deeply confused by what's going on.

It's as simple as talking to yourself.

Dr_Bob
19th Aug 2010, 20:14
1st person: Your own view
2nd Person: Over the shoulder
3rd Person: Hey, look at that guy/girl over there!

2nd person, in terms of literature, is where you are told what you are doing.

For example, "You approach the giant beast, as it drools its disgustingly-foul saliva onto your tiny face."

I don't think there are any 2nd person games and over-the-shoulder is 3rd person, as someone has already said.

IOOI
19th Aug 2010, 20:44
^^ A text-based game like "Adventure" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ADVENT_--_Will_Crowther%27s_original_version.png) could be considered a 2nd person game. (No, I never played it.)

Dr_Bob
19th Aug 2010, 20:49
^^ A text-based game like "Adventure" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ADVENT_--_Will_Crowther%27s_original_version.png) could be considered a 2nd person game. (No, I never played it.)

Looks fun, I might play it sometime.

WildcatPhoenix
19th Aug 2010, 21:07
Anyone looking for an interesting 2nd person story in literature should check out "If on a winter's night, a traveler" by Italo Calvino. Very cool read.

Not sure how that would work in a video game though... :hmm:

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 21:09
Anyone looking for an interesting 2nd person story in literature should check out "If on a winter's night, a traveler" by Italo Calvino. Very cool read.

Not sure how that would work in a video game though... :hmm:

Or just Catcher in the Rye.

Pinky_Powers
19th Aug 2010, 21:16
Or just Catcher in the Rye.

I've dedicated my entire life to avoiding Rye at all costs.

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 21:16
A terrible truth, this. I was struck by lightning at the age of ten, and ever since, I've lived every day in the 2nd person. I'm always deeply confused by what's going on.

I think you won a couple of internets with that one. :lmao:

WildcatPhoenix
19th Aug 2010, 21:23
Or just Catcher in the Rye.

I'm pretty sure Catcher is written in 1st person, no? :scratch:

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 21:28
I'm pretty sure Catcher is written in 1st person, no? :scratch:

It is.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 22:08
I'm pretty sure Catcher is written in 1st person, no? :scratch:

It's sort of a mix, that switches perspective between first and second (ha, I bet these forums would hate Catcher). He often addresses the reader directly, using "you".

WildcatPhoenix
19th Aug 2010, 22:14
I loved Catcher in the Rye, actually. But I read it as a teenager, at a time when that youthful rebellion thing really spoke to me.

Not sure how I would feel about it now.

Fluffis
19th Aug 2010, 22:43
It's sort of a mix, that switches perspective between first and second (ha, I bet these forums would hate Catcher). He often addresses the reader directly, using "you".

That's not really a mix though, is it? He isn't telling people what they are doing at the moment when he uses the word "you", is he? It's been a long time since I read it, mind.

pringlepower
19th Aug 2010, 22:48
That's not really a mix though, is it? He isn't telling people what they are doing at the moment when he uses the word "you", is he? It's been a long time since I read it, mind.

Yeah that counts as second person though. The whole perspective is poorly-defined - whether the characters can address the reader directly, or if it's a choose your adventure type thing - since it's so rarely used.

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 00:50
Yeah that counts as second person though. The whole perspective is poorly-defined - whether the characters can address the reader directly, or if it's a choose your adventure type thing - since it's so rarely used.

It does, huh? I did not know that.

As for the rest: Yeah, I know... when even the definition of the perspective is as poorly-defined as it is, you know it's going to be confusing. :)

Shralla
20th Aug 2010, 01:55
Second person only involves one of the characters being referred to as "you" in the narrative. It has nothing to do with a character addressing the reader. That's just breaking the fourth wall, or writing in the format of recounting a story to somebody (the reader).

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 02:22
Second person only involves one of the characters being referred to as "you" in the narrative. It has nothing to do with a character addressing the reader. That's just breaking the fourth wall, or writing in the format of recounting a story to somebody (the reader).

See... that's what I thought. The other thing sounded weird.

Then again, I have a fever and would probably believe almost anything at the moment, if it's said forcefully enough. :D

pringlepower
20th Aug 2010, 02:30
Hmm according to GiantBomb (not sure how reliable that is), a second-person perspective in games is from the view of someone not the protagonist. Weird.

For example, a boss fight, where you see through the eyes of the boss (but still control the protagonist?)

http://www.giantbomb.com/second-person-perspective/92-2722/

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 02:50
Hmm according to GiantBomb (not sure how reliable that is), a second-person perspective in games is from the view of someone not the protagonist. Weird.

For example, a boss fight, where you see through the eyes of the boss (but still control the protagonist?)

http://www.giantbomb.com/second-person-perspective/92-2722/

I suspect that would be the closest thing in a computer game, yes. But it's still not really the same. It would have to be a "fixed" camera (as in really following the boss' eyes), so you (the PC) can go out of picture, otherwise it would actually be third person with a cinematic camera.

Damn, even the concept of how that would look feels very strange.

pringlepower
20th Aug 2010, 02:54
I suspect that would be the closest thing in a computer game, yes. But it's still not really the same. It would have to be a "fixed" camera (as in really following the boss' eyes), so you (the PC) can go out of picture, otherwise it would actually be third person with a cinematic camera.

Damn, even the concept of how that would look feels very strange.

Yeah, second person is the bastard child of perspectives, who was teased in school and then went off to clown college. We don't like to talk about it at the family reunions.

Hertzila
20th Aug 2010, 17:30
Siren: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren:_Blood_Curse) Blood Curse (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/696-Siren-Blood-Curse). I haven't played it but I've understood that it has actual 2nd person gameplay. So it does exists in video games and as Yathzee said sightjacking could be invaluable for a stealth game protagonist.

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 18:29
Siren: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siren:_Blood_Curse) Blood Curse (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/696-Siren-Blood-Curse). I haven't played it but I've understood that it has actual 2nd person gameplay. So it does exists in video games and as Yathzee said sightjacking could be invaluable for a stealth game protagonist.

It's a cool idea, but it's not proper 2nd person, since you still see your own point of view while sight-jacking, alongside the jacked sight. I think it may be about as close as we're going to get, though. Proper 2nd person may just be too hard to implement, since there would always be the possibility of you not actually seeing yourself onscreen, making the gameplay very, very confusing.

Some forms of sight-jacking have been present in games for quite some time, though they usually tend to be more of the type where you are a kind of omnipresent entity. Like Ghost Master, for instance, where you can jack the sight of both your ghosts and the humans you're supposed to scare. They can't really be considered 2nd person either, since you don't actually have a direct presence in the game.

Hertzila
20th Aug 2010, 19:21
It's a cool idea, but it's not proper 2nd person, since you still see your own point of view while sight-jacking, alongside the jacked sight. I think it may be about as close as we're going to get, though. Proper 2nd person may just be too hard to implement, since there would always be the possibility of you not actually seeing yourself onscreen, making the gameplay very, very confusing.

That's true for most of the game but IIRC from a review there is one level where you play a nearly blind man, so you need to rely on your dog's vision for the most part (your own eyes aren't worth anything and using monster-eyes for basic navigation might shorten one's life expectancy). Though I don't remember whether the reviewer was praising or complaining about that level, so I don't know how well it actually worked.

JCpies
20th Aug 2010, 19:35
I honestly believe skill points will divert the gamers attention from the experience of enjoyment and immersion, it should not be a part of this game as it is confusing and not needed. Thankyou for your time. - modern gamer.

WildcatPhoenix
20th Aug 2010, 19:39
I honestly believe skill points will divert the gamers attention from the experience of enjoyment and immersion, it should not be a part of this game as it is confusing and not needed. Thankyou for your time. - modern gamer.

"Immersion" is not a word in the modern gamer's vocabulary.

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 19:54
That's true for most of the game but IIRC from a review there is one level where you play a nearly blind man, so you need to rely on your dog's vision for the most part (your own eyes aren't worth anything and using monster-eyes for basic navigation might shorten one's life expectancy). Though I don't remember whether the reviewer was praising or complaining about that level, so I don't know how well it actually worked.

Do you know if you can actually control your character without seeing it, though? Or is the dog's view always on you? Because I think that the possibility to be out of frame, and still able to move, would be the thing that could make it count as being 2nd person. Otherwise, it's not much different from Cinematic Cam from for instance GTA, which is basically 3rd person where you can't control the camera.

Pinky_Powers
20th Aug 2010, 19:55
"Immersion" is not a word in the modern gamer's vocabulary.

That's taking it way too far. Immersion can be found in a number of recent games. Even those that have been dumbed down in other ways. Bioshock is one of the very best immersive experiences I've had in any game. Crysis and subsequently Crysis 2 is very immersive for a simple shooter.

Ilves
20th Aug 2010, 20:07
"Immersion" is not a word in the modern gamer's vocabulary.


That's taking it way too far. Immersion can be found in a number of recent games. Even those that have been dumbed down in other ways. Bioshock is one of the very best immersive experiences I've had in any game. Crysis and subsequently Crysis 2 is very immersive for a simple shooter.

Related: Either Kotaku or the Escapist recently posted an article by some bloke or another arguing that the feeble quest for 'immersive gaming' spawned nothing but blandness and predictability. Its logic was so painful and my head is killing me enough as it is so I refuse to look it up for you, but you can help yasselves if you feel like venturing into the mind of the 'modern gamer'.

Actually, I think the dude was over 30 IIRC. :nut:

Pinky_Powers
20th Aug 2010, 20:20
That doesn't sound like fun to me. :cool:

WildcatPhoenix
20th Aug 2010, 20:24
That's taking it way too far. Immersion can be found in a number of recent games. Even those that have been dumbed down in other ways. Bioshock is one of the very best immersive experiences I've had in any game. Crysis and subsequently Crysis 2 is very immersive for a simple shooter.

Pinky, I'm not saying there have been no immersive games released recently. I'm saying the modern gamer does not purchase a game and say to him/herself, "Man, I hope this is a really immersive experience."

Consider your prototypical modern gamer:

-Under the age of 18
-Likely to play a game for >2 months
-More focused on multiplayer than singleplayer
-Most likely to gravitate to action-intensive FPS games
-Most likely to use consoles as primary (or only) gaming platform

These are not people who are going to care about how "immersive" a game is. They want something loud and fast-paced with high-end graphics, recognizeable brand names, and last but not least, multiplayer multiplayer multiplayer multiplayer.

pringlepower
20th Aug 2010, 20:42
multiplayer multiplayer multiplayer multiplayer.

Nothing wrong with that.

mad825
20th Aug 2010, 20:48
Pinky, I'm not saying there have been no immersive games released recently. I'm saying the modern gamer does not purchase a game and say to him/herself, "Man, I hope this is a really immersive experience."

Consider your prototypical modern gamer:

-Under the age of 18
-Likely to play a game for >2 months
-More focused on multiplayer than singleplayer
-Most likely to gravitate to action-intensive FPS games
-Most likely to use consoles as primary (or only) gaming platform

These are not people who are going to care about how "immersive" a game is. They want something loud and fast-paced with high-end graphics, recognizeable brand names, and last but not least, multiplayer multiplayer multiplayer multiplayer.
having said that, they mostly like to compare the games to Halo or CoD/MW for the exact same reasons you have stated although they do tend to play "a" or a "few" games more than 2 months due to its multiplayer aspects

Irate_Iguana
20th Aug 2010, 22:12
I'm saying the modern gamer does not purchase a game and say to him/herself, "Man, I hope this is a really immersive experience."

You're not keeping up with the latest trends in marketing. The quest for immersion has been gone already. The latests trendy words are "emotional investment". There is still some "epic" being thrown around. You might hear a "choices and consequences" if you look around.

Fluffis
20th Aug 2010, 22:51
You're not keeping up with the latest trends in marketing. The quest for immersion has been gone already. The latests trendy words are "emotional investment". There is still some "epic" being thrown around. You might hear a "choices and consequences" if you look around.

"Emergent gameplay" seems to be a favourite, as well.

Slack
21st Aug 2010, 00:38
I was thinking in parkour LIKE MIRRORS EDGE