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Cronstintein
11th Aug 2010, 00:01
I'm fairly certain most of DXHR is written in stone by now so lets not get too crazy about rants on regenerating health and all that. But I read a really old post on another board that inspired me:

QUOTE
Regenerating health is better than picking up medpacks but it's just another crutch, the real issue isn't how to give the player health it's the question of why the game should even be about dying or not dying.

Even in Deus Ex you had to go pretty far to actually get killed. Part of the thrill of the game was dragging yourself along with one arm after your legs and torso got blown off.
END QUOTE

Which made me ponder a bit about how you could get that feeling without being forced into medpack slavery. Not that I particularly minded, but I understand the developer fear of getting people 'stuck'.

So now, MY IDEA:
-No Medpacks.
-You DO in fact have a 'self-repairing' ability but it requires enormous amounts of power so you need to find a power source to run it. Not a fancy/specialized medbot per se but any outlet. This could actually give the designers some fun to find different fun ways of delivering power: Car battery, dead bot, light sockets, etc..
It would be really fast, I don't need 10sec cutscenes. I also would like them to be everywhere in most situations, how many outlets are in your room right now for instance? Try and place them organically rather than HERE IS YOUR HEALTHPACK NUDGE NUDGE WINK WINK
-Now by COD standards you'd be more of a tank, it would take quite a few bullets to actually put you down BUT
there'd be localized damage.
-Leg damage would slow you down/lower your jump.
-Torso would lower your sprint distance then knock you down.
-head shots would mess with your vision (i'm thinking more fuzzy and wobly rather than red splotches) but would subside into a very slight effect.
-Ok so there would be a low number of portable batteries to get out of impossible situations but they'd be RARE.
-Dying is the only thing I'm having trouble contemplating. Right now I'm picturing being in such bad shape that you go down and can't get up while an enemy approaches and gives you a coup de gras. Could be pretty dramatic scene in first person. Normal difficulties would be scaled so this wouldn't be very frequent.

Anyway I'd appreciate any feedback on this idea, I felt the need to post it and see if anyone thought it was interesting.

Invictus Sol
11th Aug 2010, 00:09
Yeah, that would be very cool. I like the idea of it being a little more dynamic (electrical outlet, car battery, light socket, etc.). Some areas would be loaded with opportunities for power (e.g., any generic house/office -- though a nice surprise would be a recently abandoned house that one plugs into, only to learn the power's been cut) while other areas (Central/Battery Park-like locations, shipyards, etc.) would be more difficult (maybe in areas like this, one could cut into lamp posts and such and splice into electricity that way). In certain areas (e.g., in Hell's Kitchen when UNATCO comes after Paul) the authorities could cut power to the area altogether, forcing a player to live as long as they can by their wits. It would definitely force one to make very calculated decisions based on the environment and would be a lot of fun. Great idea.

PS - Also like the idea of being shot down and waiting for the coup de gras. Always liked in DX after one'd been killed by MJ12 troopers, one of the guys milling around the corpse would casually say "I'm hungry. Who wants a sandwich?". Just made one's death that much more insulting.

pringlepower
11th Aug 2010, 00:16
Did they do this in inFamous?

Cronstintein
11th Aug 2010, 00:43
Did they do this in inFamous?

Not sure, never played it. PS3 exclusive I'm guessing?


Thanks Invictus Sol, appreciate the fast feedback.
Yeah, the energy availability would make the setting a much bigger element rather than just the texture for your cover boxes.
Those ideas are cool, and all that in like 10 minutes! It's too bad getting money behind fresh ideas is so difficult in the entertainment industry.

As this idea percolated a bit in my brain I thought of perhaps having primary and secondary effects. Or better said as instant and lingering effects.

So while shooting you get hit in the arm:
Instant effect: your reticule is jarred and your cursor speed is changed temporarily (I'm thinking loose since your arm is numb and you've now lost fine motor control).
Lingering effect: Your aiming reticule is larger, more kick, and or slower reload (at least one handed would certainly be slower!)

While running you're shot in the leg:
Instant: You stumble to your knees, leaving you exposed an extra second.
Lingering: slightly slower and increasing cursor bob when shooting on the run to indicate limping.

Anyway I'm sure you get the idea, I'm really suprised we don't see more stuff like this, it's so much more interesting than: red screen 5...4....3....2....1... all better, go go go!

Too bad we can't use it for this game, DX would be a perfect vehicle for a system like this.

Ashpolt
11th Aug 2010, 10:29
I actually quite like this idea. I think it'd need to be a bit more restricted than you suggest - as you say, standard electrical sockets are everywhere (though would Adam be able to plug in to the weird sockets in foreign countries? :D) so that'd make the game too easy, but things like lamp posts, generators, car batteries etc could be placed frequently enough to be useful without being so frequent as to remove any challenge. Anything that restores localised damage, and consequences for it, is good by me though!

FYI though, Deus Ex is not a shooter. :rasp:

tartarus_sauce
11th Aug 2010, 10:54
But wouldn't that strain credulity a bit? I mean, sucking energy out of sockets and appliances and the like. Would Adam have a little cord that he would plug in, like some kind of human plug-in hybrid? Woe unto him if he forgot to buy the proper adaptor at the airport! The problem there is that every outlet/source of power would become an insta-heal, since he would be sucking juice straight from the grid and all, and then you end up with something that's no better than the old permanent-insta-heal medkit boxes from games of yore.

How about something a little more reflective of how the technology would actually work? I think everyone in the Deus Ex community likes the ability to disable limbs and such, so it needs to be built around that. One problem is that Jensen's upper body works in a radically different way than his head or lower body. A "medkit" doesn't make much sense if he's busted his arm, for example, since it's made of metamaterials rather than flesh. How about if his legs get busted, he pops in a stimulant that can keep him on his feet, but the effect wears off over time? For example, if his leg is disabled, he can pop a stim and run on it for a few minutes, but then after that his movement speed is severely reduced. Or maybe more interesting, that stimulant might have negative consequences down the line, forcing the player to make a tactical choice. 'Same thing with the arms, except through in some technical gobbledygook like "rerouting power" or "use the hydro-spanner." Head damage could decrease vision, accuracy, etc.

For the record, I don't think health regeneration makes technical sense in HR, but I've always felt like healing should've been automatic in DX, given how nanomedicine is projected to work if and when it matures. It never made any sense at all for healing nanites to use quite as much raw energy as they did.

Kodaemon
11th Aug 2010, 13:31
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8239/crank2poster2j.jpg

/thread

ThePrecursor
11th Aug 2010, 13:50
Adam is essentially a cyborg, not a robot. Your idea is based around the fact that electrical power would equal health. Again, you are still a human, thus this makes no sense. If you get shot, how would electrical power heal you? Wiring your body into an electrical grid would only reduce your health as you would get fried.

pringlepower
11th Aug 2010, 14:01
Adam is essentially a cyborg, not a robot. Your idea is based around the fact that electrical power would equal health. Again, you are still a human, thus this makes no sense. If you get shot, how would electrical power heal you? Wiring your body into an electrical grid would only reduce your health as you would get fried.

unless you're COLE MCGRATH
seriously I swear inFamous did this.

TrickyVein
11th Aug 2010, 14:01
In Aliens vs. Predator (1st one) the only way to gain health as a xenomorph was to kill humans and eat their flesh. Sort of the same mechanic, only instead of "plugging in" everywhere, you just eat things.

You mention that the player would be a "walking tank." If it's that kind of game, fine - the best shooters in my mind are the ones that provide you with very little damage resistance (at least initially). One, two hits, and you're down.

biofuel
11th Aug 2010, 14:59
"As you probably know, deus ex is not a shooter."

-harvey smith
lead designer, Deus Ex

TrickyVein
11th Aug 2010, 15:02
^^ as in, DX is not JUST a shooter. It's a shooter, an RPG and a simulator, and whatever the hell else Harvey said it was.

Finish the goddamn quote.

Invictus Sol
11th Aug 2010, 15:58
Adam is essentially a cyborg, not a robot. Your idea is based around the fact that electrical power would equal health. Again, you are still a human, thus this makes no sense. If you get shot, how would electrical power heal you? Wiring your body into an electrical grid would only reduce your health as you would get fried.

It's not any different in principle from Denton getting bio-energy from those electrical bots (name escapes me at the moment) and converting it to health via the regenerating health aug. Granted, being able to use any source of electricity would make this system over-powerful, so some sort of modifier would have to be put in place. I just like the idea of something besides medkits/auto-regenerating health.

biofuel
11th Aug 2010, 17:26
TrickyVein, here is the so-called "goddamn quote"

"As you probably know, deus ex is not a shooter. but in talking about game weapon design and encountering the same problems time and again, some things have occurred to me that might be interesting. as always, i’d love to hear outside opinions"

Harvey Smith, lead Designer -Deus Ex
Source: witchboy.net (his blog/diary that he started when working on DX back in December of 98, and is still running today..)

TrickyVein
11th Aug 2010, 18:20
Heh, OK - thanks.

ThePrecursor
11th Aug 2010, 19:04
Another approach that I think is very underrated is limited health regeneration. For those who aren't familiar with it:
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e309/HyperGuru/LHR.jpg
(Of course this isn't what a real health meter should look like)

Cronstintein
11th Aug 2010, 21:21
I actually like the Mass effect 1 system of a recharging shield over a very slow recharging health. So you can take a couple shots but if you get hosed you're feeling it for a while.

Cronstintein
11th Aug 2010, 21:33
Adam is essentially a cyborg, not a robot. Your idea is based around the fact that electrical power would equal health. Again, you are still a human, thus this makes no sense. If you get shot, how would electrical power heal you? Wiring your body into an electrical grid would only reduce your health as you would get fried.

Well you are half robot so I'm not so sure about the fried thing. Though I do agree the idea makes a bit more sense for a full-scale robot. I wouldn't be opposed to the electro-healing not helping your torso/head areas which would require a medbot or item or something. This would help keep you honest so you can't just sprint from outlet to outlet.

How does self-healing with no resources make sense? Really some suspension of disbelief is required for any type of healing... The question is would the mechanic be FUN?

In terms of 'tankiness' and frequency of energy locations, that stuff is all balanced by testing anyway.

And even if outlets were available every 50ft it would STILL be harder than 5 seconds of cover for a full recharge a la COD.

tartarus_sauce
11th Aug 2010, 22:17
What's more important: realism (or intuitiveness, if you like) or fun?

For me, realism is fun. I like a game that's going to force me to play smart.

Cronstintein
12th Aug 2010, 03:33
What's more important: realism (or intuitiveness, if you like) or fun?

For me, realism is fun. I like a game that's going to force me to play smart.

That's somewhat paradoxical.
If you want realism then you want a game with no healing what so ever? Because THAT's realistic, but not very playable.

pringlepower
12th Aug 2010, 03:35
That's somewhat paradoxical.
If you want realism then you want a game with no healing what so ever? Because THAT's realistic, but not very playable.

Pain is plenty of fun for some. That's a lot of the point behind BDSM.

I think Max Payne's healing system was interesting. Depending on how badly you're getting owned (or not at all) the game compensates by adding or subtracting painkillers (health) scattered about.

tartarus_sauce
12th Aug 2010, 04:38
There are plenty of games that have no healing, or only very limited healing. Milsims and the like. I mean, people said the same thing about Rainbow Six when it first came out- "This isn't going to be fun at all! One-shot kills? No healing? What are you, nuts?" Counter-Strike didn't have healing either.

Cronstintein
12th Aug 2010, 09:02
You know, with how powerful Adam Jensen is looking, maybe no healing would be a good way to go!
It would certainly make you act tactically. Stealth and avoidance ftw.

I'm actually pretty curious to see what they do for their hardest mode. They know they have some pretty hardcore fans from the original, I hope they give them a little something like maybe a 'realistic' difficulty.

Jerion
12th Aug 2010, 09:14
You know, with how powerful Adam Jensen is looking, maybe no healing would be a good way to go!
It would certainly make you act tactically. Stealth and avoidance ftw

Easy Difficulty: Enemies cower before your gravelly threats. Ideal for content tourists and critics who don't like games where every day isn't christmas.

Normal Difficulty: Smart, capable enemies. Interesting and challenging play. Hybrid regenerative/supplement health model.

Hard Difficulty: Normal with more attentive/more dynamic enemies.

Super Hard Difficulty: Hard, but with no healing of any sort. Because we're nice people, JC Tenton may be deployed to trick enemies into guarding candy bar supplies and bakeries.

tartarus_sauce
12th Aug 2010, 09:29
I agree, Cronstintein. Deus Ex is too easy even on "Realistic" difficulty setting. I'd be cool if Jensen could only take one or two rounds. That would make me one happy panda.

Brockxz
12th Aug 2010, 10:27
Well you are half robot so I'm not so sure about the fried thing. Though I do agree the idea makes a bit more sense for a full-scale robot. I wouldn't be opposed to the electro-healing not helping your torso/head areas which would require a medbot or item or something. This would help keep you honest so you can't just sprint from outlet to outlet.

How does self-healing with no resources make sense? Really some suspension of disbelief is required for any type of healing... The question is would the mechanic be FUN?

In terms of 'tankiness' and frequency of energy locations, that stuff is all balanced by testing anyway.

And even if outlets were available every 50ft it would STILL be harder than 5 seconds of cover for a full recharge a la COD.

it does not make sense even if you are half robot or only have one mechanical arm or whatever else. Electricity can't repair anything and if you have damaged circuits or whatever, you will just damage it more by pluging it in. Of course it would make sense if for example you need electricity to maintain repair tool so you could make repairs to your damaged mechanical parts.

Cronstintein
12th Aug 2010, 11:38
Normal Difficulty: Smart, capable enemies. Interesting and challenging play. Hybrid regenerative/supplement health model.

Hard Difficulty: Normal with more attentive/more dynamic enemies.


If that's the actual implementation then I'd definitely go hard right off the bat.
Better AI? I'm in! :thumb:
As long as 'dynamic' isn't developer for bullet sponge ;)

hem dazon 90
12th Aug 2010, 11:40
I really do like that idea but to be honest I don't think it would work in A Deus Ex game.

Romeo
12th Aug 2010, 14:46
I have to say, before they buggered everything up, Section 8 had a really cool means of health, which had three 'tiers' if you will, it was as follows:

Shields - Basic layer of rechargable shields. Once drained, damage applied to Armor until Shields could recharge.

Armor - Armor had specific damage points, and damage done was permanent. So, one could shoot the left pauldren off someone, and watch that bit fly off their character, and that character would never get the pauldren back. Also, one could shoot off whatever perks they had, meaning you could actually shoot their shield generator and really screw them permanently, or make them less useful. Once shot off, damages applied to health.

Health - Health was very weak, and only took a few rounds before you died. It recharged - but this was a very slow procedure (About a minute for 50% health).


Things started to look up at first - the armor was customizable, they introduced an ally repair tool for their armor (but you couldn't repair your own) and weapons could be adjusted to damage certain tiers better than others (Shields vs Armor, mainly). Eventually, they replaced the whole thing with Shields and non-specific Armor that both recharged, and health didn't exist. The armor customization became visual only. The tool became obsolete. Weapons couldn't be customized. In the end, some of the stuff they gave to the original community at their forums was comical "You can still shoot off armor parts!" ...Well you could, problem being that he dies instantly, making the whole thing kinda pointless. lol

Shralla
12th Aug 2010, 16:35
"Before they buggered everything up"? Does that mean before they released the beta? Because the beta was pretty terrible.

Cronstintein
12th Aug 2010, 19:28
That sounds really cool, wonder why they abandoned it for something so pedestrian. I don't understand the purpose of having a armor/shield combination if they both recharge. (same applies to mass effect 2 recharging health/shield... :/ )

Pretentious Old Man.
12th Aug 2010, 19:36
That sounds really cool, wonder why they abandoned it for something so pedestrian. I don't understand the purpose of having a armor/shield combination if they both recharge. (same applies to mass effect 2 recharging health/shield... :/ )

Because many people revile excess complexity, which their tiny minds struggle to grasp.

Don't kill me, but I actually find Halo 1's health model fairly decent, maybe simply due to the way it was balanced, I don't know. If only H2 could know what it did to the world with health regen...sniff.

Although actually, there instances where it's OK. I thought health regen was OK in the Mafia 2 demo, for example, because A.) it was slow and B.) there was a bar of health there for you to see.

Cronstintein
12th Aug 2010, 20:19
Yeah, similar to mass effect 1 (until you get regen on your armor, anyway), pretty reasonable I think. A rechargeable outer layer with squishy non-auto-healing human underneath.

I don't know if it's really the players' fault really or just lack of faith from game designers.

Romeo
13th Aug 2010, 05:10
"Before they buggered everything up"? Does that mean before they released the beta? Because the beta was pretty terrible.
This was when the game was still in conceptual stage. Everything started to go down hill after the first IGN review, as they said the game was a bit too restrictive (There was an economic model to balance out having better perks, heavy weapons, weapon mods and armor options. You had to pick what to do well) and they also thought the game felt slow, so the health model was scaled back and there was no restrictions on loadouts (Want to make a sniper, rocket-launcher, heavy armor stealth class? No problem!). However, as terrible as it sounds, I thought the game speed was better in the early build videos. You could run and jump hella fast, enabling to get to targets and all that, but the amount of time needed to take someone down was a fairly lengthy affair, and really made team play incredibly effective. It also made every kill seem so much more important, as it took so much more effort.

That sounds really cool, wonder why they abandoned it for something so pedestrian. I don't understand the purpose of having a armor/shield combination if they both recharge. (same applies to mass effect 2 recharging health/shield... :/ )
As POM stated, IGN found it too far beyond the mainstream, and rather unforgiving.

Because many people revile excess complexity, which their tiny minds struggle to grasp.

Don't kill me, but I actually find Halo 1's health model fairly decent, maybe simply due to the way it was balanced, I don't know. If only H2 could know what it did to the world with health regen...sniff.

Although actually, there instances where it's OK. I thought health regen was OK in the Mafia 2 demo, for example, because A.) it was slow and B.) there was a bar of health there for you to see.
Dude, Halo 1 was a fine health model. I also really would like to see a version of the Shock/Trauma system in PD:Z where health items were permitted. Or another system like Pariah, that game was good because of it's health system.

Cronstintein
13th Aug 2010, 05:36
I also really would like to see a version of the Shock/Trauma system in PD:Z where health items were permitted. Or another system like Pariah, that game was good because of it's health system.

Not familiar with these but you've piqued my interest! Don't leave me hanging bro!

Romeo
14th Aug 2010, 06:37
Not familiar with these but you've piqued my interest! Don't leave me hanging bro!
Perfect Dark: Zero had a basic health bar, but the damage you took was organized into shock damage, or traumatic damage. Shock damage was minor injury, and would heal fully. It was typically attained from falling from smaller heights, being punched and a fraction of bullet damage would. Traumatic damage on the other hand brought the health bar down - and kept it there. That meant you could regenerate a little bit of your health after gunfights, but not much. Unfortunately in PD:Z there were no health items, so once it got low there was never any way to get it back up without dying and being revived, but that could be corrected. I liked the system for both it's uniqueness, and to a degree, realism. It also had that wonderful balance between consequence and not ruining the game every time you were spotted.

If PD:Z's system was good, Pariah's was ethereal. Before I continue, you need to understand that all weapons in Pariah were upgradable. Now, continuing on, Pariah's health system was basically four bars of health, all identical in scope and function. As you took damage, the first bar would lower, until it was depleted, then it would move on to the next bar and so on and so forth. If a bar was not completely drained, it would recharge. Now, that has been done before, what was unique was how the empty bars were refilled. You had a literal health gun. Now, before you roll your eyes, let me explain: It was a small injector, that like any weapon in that game had a primary and secondary mode, and like all weapons, had it's own ammo type. Now, the primary fire on it refilled one bar, and overloaded you with adrenalin, resulting in slightly quicker reloads and minor damage mitigation. The secondary didn't restore health, but caused a lot longer adrenalin burst, but also had much quicker reloads, huge damage mitigation and in single-player, slowed things down ever so slightly. The downside to adrenalin was that your screen would lose focus for the first second or so. But it was nice because if you employed stealth, you could usually kill enemies without them using their own health-thing, leaving their ammo for you to take, but if you waltzed into every battle guns-blazing, they could hide and shoot up, not only taking more ammo to kill, but also consuming their health-ammo-thing in the process. And when I mentioned levelling up, the first upgrade granted an extra bar of health, the second upgrade eliminated the ammo requirement on secondary fire (But the user still needed to switch to the health thing, activate it, and then switch back to their weapon, which took some time) and the last upgrade granted one more health bar for a grand total of six.

luminar
14th Aug 2010, 14:47
I really liked the health system in riddick! It's a perfect combo of regen and medpacks! You can screw up but if you don't do something about it soon your gonna hurt.

Romeo
14th Aug 2010, 18:19
I really liked the health system in riddick! It's a perfect combo of regen and medpacks! You can screw up but if you don't do something about it soon your gonna hurt.
Riddick was pretty neat-o too, but I still hold Pariah above it. ;)

Cronstintein
14th Aug 2010, 23:40
Well sounds like Pariah had Riddick system plus a much more intricate heal method so it gets my vote too, even w/o playing it

Romeo
15th Aug 2010, 16:36
Well sounds like Pariah had Riddick system plus a much more intricate heal method so it gets my vote too, even w/o playing it
A nifty little game, all in all. If you ever see it in the bargain bin, pick it up. :)

sharpie
17th Aug 2010, 11:20
It's a difficult subject to be sure.I liked ME2's personally(some skills acted as a insta-shield for the impatient or unprepared).

I'd say, no hud/health bar (except eye augment) and instead let health degen be on-screen effects such as fuzziness or tunnel vision. I'll call it wounded. Let's say on the highest difficulty one bullet puts you into wounded status, it becomes hard to hear (other than your own breathing) you can only see clearly whats directly in front of you (blackness encroaches) and given enough time you will faint/die. The bullets required to send you into wounded status would obviously differ between difficulties/calibers and the ilk.

To stave off the eventual fainting you have stimpacks which will put you back into normal status for a certain amount of time (difficulty determined) and make you better overall (shooting wise) but after time they will wear off, and the more you use them per mission the less effective they are (to counter simply stocking up on them).

A more midterm counteractive would be morphine (or whatever pain killer they have in this time period) completely staving off the effects of being wounded until you are shot again. Some sort of counter needed (imo an addiction or perhaps some serious side effect from over usage)

The longterm in mission being a FAK, which takes about a minute to apply (based on amount of damage) and can only do so much (eventually no amount of duct tape can fill those holes) Cons being requires a solid safe point/bulky/can't heal everything

Also armor, or reinforcing as an augmentation could be used in this situation too. Allows you to take an amount of damage that is simply negated but has to be repaired after it is rendered ineffective (can't be fixed in mission)

Also specific ligaments could require a doctor or technician to be fixed (out of mission) but I'm not sure if it would coincide (realistically) with my idea of a health system.

Ashpolt
17th Aug 2010, 11:50
I'd say, no hud/health bar (except eye augment) and instead let health degen be on-screen effects such as fuzziness or tunnel vision.

Oh god no. The rest of your post is fine, but I hate this. If I'm getting shot, the game shouldn't make it more difficult for me to see what I'm doing. Sadly, given that it's a trendy feature at the moment - and we all know how much EM loves those - I think this kind of thing is all but inevitable.

pringlepower
17th Aug 2010, 13:59
Oh god no. The rest of your post is fine, but I hate this. If I'm getting shot, the game shouldn't make it more difficult for me to see what I'm doing. Sadly, given that it's a trendy feature at the moment - and we all know how much EM loves those - I think this kind of thing is all but inevitable.

Sure it should. You ever been shot? Gets purty hard to focus on stuff.

Ashpolt
17th Aug 2010, 14:06
^^ Here's the difference: I'm talking about gameplay, not realism. This being a game and all, not real life. As has been mentioned before, if we're going for realism, getting shot should lead to bleeding out, and even if you survive, several weeks of physical therapy at least. Gameplay should always trump realism.

pringlepower
17th Aug 2010, 14:08
^^ Here's the difference: I'm talking about gameplay, not realism. This being a game and all, not real life. As has been mentioned before, if we're going for realism, getting shot should lead to bleeding out, and even if you survive, several weeks of physical therapy at least. Gameplay should always trump realism.

One could argue it's all in the fun of getting shot. Just like losing a leg makes it harder to walk, getting shot makes it harder to aim and see.

Ashpolt
17th Aug 2010, 19:28
One could argue it's all in the fun of getting shot. Just like losing a leg makes it harder to walk, getting shot makes it harder to aim and see.

One could argue that, but I wouldn't. I would argue that arbitrarily restricting your ability to appraise your surroundings just when you most need it is not, in fact, fun.

Also, the entire blood splatter on the screen / desaturation thing just looks tacky.

pringlepower
17th Aug 2010, 19:39
One could argue that, but I wouldn't. I would argue that arbitrarily restricting your ability to appraise your surroundings just when you most need it is not, in fact, fun.

Also, the entire blood splatter on the screen / desaturation thing just looks tacky.

Just like arbitrarily reducing your movement speed when you really need to escape...

Bleh nevermind, We won't get anywhere. Truce?

Ashpolt
17th Aug 2010, 22:55
Just like arbitrarily reducing your movement speed when you really need to escape...

That forces you to think your way out: something Deus Ex should be all about. Blurring / partly obscuring your visions limits your ability to think your way out because it limits your ability to perceive the current situation accurately. It's the same as the difference between being limited to just one gun and playing with the volume off: one's a challenge, one's an irritation.

Also, as mentioned, it's tacky. I hate it when games have lovely game worlds that I want to look around, and then obscure my view of it half the time. It's particularly bad when stealth games desaturate the screen to show you're hidden: about 3/4 of Splinter Cell Conviction was played in black and white for me, which I just found massively irritating. Using it for health isn't quite that bad, but it's still annoying when the alternative (a health bar) gives you more accurate feedback and doesn' mess up the graphics.

And truce? I don't know the meaning of the word! Haha! Ashpolt, away!

Jerion
17th Aug 2010, 23:04
I actually liked how Mirror's Edge does it. Obvious how hurt you are, without obscuring the field of view too much or seeming distant. Bad Company 2 takes it a bit too far, though it ties in really nicely when you have war tapes audio enabled.

tartarus_sauce
17th Aug 2010, 23:30
I liked the way in Mirror's Edge getting shot actually slowed you down. One problem in games is that you can take rounds and damage with no immediate effect. I like games where taking a bullet puts you down for a bit. I always find something obnoxious about games where you can shoot someone, in the head say, and they just keep blazing away.

One thing I hope you get in Deus Ex is lethal damn headshots. One thing I absolutely hated about ME and ME2 was putting rounds right through a mofos nose and having him shrug it off like it ain't no thing.

Romeo
18th Aug 2010, 01:51
I liked the way in Mirror's Edge getting shot actually slowed you down. One problem in games is that you can take rounds and damage with no immediate effect. I like games where taking a bullet puts you down for a bit. I always find something obnoxious about games where you can shoot someone, in the head say, and they just keep blazing away.

One thing I hope you get in Deus Ex is lethal damn headshots. One thing I absolutely hated about ME and ME2 was putting rounds right through a mofos nose and having him shrug it off like it ain't no thing.
On some enemies the headshot not being lethal made sense, as did it when they had barriers up. But my god, do not make the health anything like ME2 (See also: Every other damn game these days). Shot up so much you're about to die? No worries, just wait half a second! The original game absolutely trumps ME2's health system.

pringlepower
18th Aug 2010, 02:39
On some enemies the headshot not being lethal made sense, as did it when they had barriers up. But my god, do not make the health anything like ME2 (See also: Every other damn game these days). Shot up so much you're about to die? No worries, just wait half a second! The original game absolutely trumps ME2's health system.

But there was medigel! It made sense!

For you see medigel is the Jesus of Mass Effect. Or would that be element zero.

Romeo
18th Aug 2010, 02:42
But there was medigel! It made sense!

For you see medigel is the Jesus of Mass Effect. Or would that be element zero.
Medigel still resulted in consequences. Auto-heal means I can act like a complete moron without any negative consequences.

pringlepower
18th Aug 2010, 02:54
Medigel still resulted in consequences. Auto-heal means I can act like a complete moron without any negative consequences.

No no you see all combats suits after 2185 were refit to automatically distribute medigel to injured soldiers. And, following the logic that ammo never ran out in Mass Effect, despite technically being finite, likewise the suits carry enough medigel to continuously heal a soldier for about a day before going back to restock.

Logic!

Cronstintein
18th Aug 2010, 02:54
^agreed 1000% EDIT Ninja'd! I'm pointing at Romeo :/

I was shocked when booting up ME1 the first time to find my health regening..

Not letting biotics work until shields were down was another brutal design decision that made me switch down from hard to normal half way through my 1st playthrough. My biotic was basically just a soldier with no gun skills :/

Hopefully we won't have any HUGE boneheaded moves like that. I'd really like to know what they're doing for health system.

pringlepower
18th Aug 2010, 03:00
^agreed 1000% EDIT Ninja'd! I'm pointing at Romeo :/

I was shocked when booting up ME1 the first time to find my health regening..

Not letting biotics work until shields were down was another brutal design decision that made me switch down from hard to normal half way through my 1st playthrough. My biotic was basically just a soldier with no gun skills :/

Hopefully we won't have any HUGE boneheaded moves like that. I'd really like to know what they're doing for health system.

I thought that was a great idea. Combined with more defined companion roles (focusing on 3-4 skills), it turned your teammates into indispensible allies instead of people who kept getting in your way every time you tried to shoot the enemy. Playing on Insanity, I had to rely on Mordin and Miranda to chip away at their armour and shields before I could completely own them (and since I was an Adept with wide singularity, the moment anyone got to just health, they were completely owned - it would've been way too easy on lower difficulties). Compared with Mass Effect 1 where my vanguard lifted, shotgun. Lifted, shotgun. Threw... shotgun, while Ashley sat there being bored, Mass Effect 2 definitely had a better team atmosphere.

Cronstintein
18th Aug 2010, 03:11
Basically you were a morale-boosting cheerleader for your team then. The amount of health each opponent got was minuscule compared to the armor/shields/barriers. Making those owning biotics nothing more than a lightshow. You could just as easily shot him 3 more times and ended it.

pringlepower
18th Aug 2010, 03:14
Basically you were a morale-boosting cheerleader for your team then. The amount of health each opponent got was minuscule compared to the armor/shields/barriers. Making those owning biotics nothing more than a lightshow. You could just as easily shot him 3 more times and ended it.

Oh, if only it were so easy with 2 Geth Primes coming at you

Also Warp was very useful.

But then again not everyone plays on Insanity. But it was a nice balance. I didn't feel it was too hard.

Cronstintein
18th Aug 2010, 03:20
It wasn't so much hard as really frustrating to have powers that were useless 80% of the time. I would have been happy if they worked on one outer cover type (shields or armor) or health/shield split was closer to 50/50.

Don't remember the geth primes, it's been a while. The only time I remember bio-usefulness was on the lizard planet.

Nyysjan
18th Aug 2010, 03:34
my main beef in me2 was the ammo, as someone whos fav weapon was the sniper rifle, and who prefers to stay back and pick em of one by one, the constant lack of ammo made playing on harder difficulties an excercise in frustration.

pringlepower
18th Aug 2010, 03:44
It wasn't so much hard as really frustrating to have powers that were useless 80% of the time. I would have been happy if they worked on one outer cover type (shields or armor) or health/shield split was closer to 50/50.

Don't remember the geth primes, it's been a while. The only time I remember bio-usefulness was on the lizard planet.

There were. Warp did heavy damage to armour, and singularity slowed/disrupted some enemies even if protected.

They were one of the rare enemies that actually walked towards you, protected with shields and armour, armed with a machine gun. You only had so much time before they walked to you...

and @ Nyysjan. The Tempest SMG was my life in ME2 so I'd have to disagree. Mass Effect tried something new with the ammo but I don't think it worked so well when you had to slow down your shots, especially when the enemy was on top of you.

My ardent Bioware fanboyism shall not be defeated!

sharpie
18th Aug 2010, 05:34
I try not to think of ME2, it was good but not as great as ME1 imo.

Pinky_Powers
18th Aug 2010, 06:01
I try not to think of ME2, it was good but not as great as ME1 imo.

Weaker story over-all, but better gameplay and more interesting characters with diverse and intriguing quests. Oh, and superb graphics. Try not to think of it all you want, for the rest of us, it was simply wonderful.

sharpie
18th Aug 2010, 11:23
Weaker story over-all, but better gameplay and more interesting characters with diverse and intriguing quests. Oh, and superb graphics. Try not to think of it all you want, for the rest of us, it was simply wonderful.

I wouldn't say overall better game play, it took different approaches that have pros and cons, the characters were cliches (but in a good way) and depending on the person playing could be considered incredibly annoying. I.E. Jack. And ME1 had superb graphics too.

Again I liked it, I just wish it had gotten more polish. It felt like a game that had been completely (or close to) been scratched and restarted half way through and didn't get any extra time to work on it.

And again, I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying a ton of polish/attention, if I were talking about hideous games I'd mention Alpha Protocol.

Nyysjan
18th Aug 2010, 11:46
and @ Nyysjan. The Tempest SMG was my life in ME2 so I'd have to disagree. Mass Effect tried something new with the ammo but I don't think it worked so well when you had to slow down your shots, especially when the enemy was on top of you.

disagree with what?
that lack of ammo was frustrating if you were playing a sniper when playing on harder difficulties?
wich was pretty much all i said.

If you have 10 bullets, and 20 enemies, it can get frustrating, especially if you need 3 shots to kill the enemy.
I often ended up hiding behind a chest high wall while taking enemies down with my allies bionic or engineering powers, while making sure that my allies were hiding somewhere that the enemy can't kill them (arch angel mission was horrible, as was freedoms progress, wich was as far as i got on insanity before stopped).

Xenoc
18th Aug 2010, 16:31
If we are really unlucky they may implement FC2 health animations??? Lets hope not, for the love of god... NOOOOOOOOOOOOO