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Pretentious Old Man.
9th Aug 2010, 21:23
...Does anyone else feel a little...how can I put this without sounding like some kind of bitter hater...apprehensive about the idea of "when the coat is on, it's social, when off, combat" thing?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know that you can still kill in coat mode, and talk in combat mode. I get this.

However, a big part of the original DX was suspense, and detective work. A bit like in Maggie Chow's apartment. You didn't know what was going to happen. Doesn't it just ruin the suspense a little if the developer takes off the coat to basically tell you that there are hostile NPCs in the area?

DX was not divided into hostile and social zones. It was a reasonably organic world, in which one map could house many types of interaction. I don't know, not liking the whole coat thing at all.

Now, if we could choose when to take it off to get certain aug bonuses, that I would like a lot.

Corpus
9th Aug 2010, 21:45
...Does anyone else feel a little...how can I put this without sounding like some kind of bitter hater...apprehensive about the idea of "when the coat is on, it's social, when off, combat" thing?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know that you can still kill in coat mode, and talk in combat mode. I get this.

However, a big part of the original DX was suspense, and detective work. A bit like in Maggie Chow's apartment. You didn't know what was going to happen. Doesn't it just ruin the suspense a little if the developer takes off the coat to basically tell you that there are hostile NPCs in the area?

DX was not divided into hostile and social zones. It was a reasonably organic world, in which one map could house many types of interaction. I don't know, not liking the whole coat thing at all.

Now, if we could choose when to take it off to get certain aug bonuses, that I would like a lot.

"you can still kill in coat mode, and talk in combat mode."

This allows uncertainty. If they said "no killing at all in coat mode" then your assumption would be reasonable but you never know what they can pull out of the bag. Nothings stopping them from going:
Alright go talk to Mr. Sarif. Oh wait that chick with the leg augs is already in the building you gotta kick her augmented ass.

The coat being off signifies there is combat for sure and that its gonna be pretty heavy. But the situation is still questionable with or without coat. This is a world full of big corporations trying to kill you after all.

Fluffis
9th Aug 2010, 21:53
...Does anyone else feel a little...how can I put this without sounding like some kind of bitter hater...apprehensive about the idea of "when the coat is on, it's social, when off, combat" thing?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I know that you can still kill in coat mode, and talk in combat mode. I get this.

However, a big part of the original DX was suspense, and detective work. A bit like in Maggie Chow's apartment. You didn't know what was going to happen. Doesn't it just ruin the suspense a little if the developer takes off the coat to basically tell you that there are hostile NPCs in the area?

DX was not divided into hostile and social zones. It was a reasonably organic world, in which one map could house many types of interaction. I don't know, not liking the whole coat thing at all.

Now, if we could choose when to take it off to get certain aug bonuses, that I would like a lot.

I've been thinking about this as well... is this going to become as certain a tell as "chest-high walls", in your average cover-TPS? If it is, I'll be very disappointed. Uncertainty is a great way to build suspense. C.f. the first time you go through the first part of The Cradle in Thief: DS. Whatever flaws that game has, The Cradle was one of the creepiest levels I have ever played in a game and the whole first part of the level is empty...

Spyhopping
9th Aug 2010, 21:55
It'd be a great feature if we were in control of it, and each kind of clothing brought some sort of stat change. You decide you're in for a social round, and your coat conceals your augs, allows you to blend better with the crowd. So the gameplay result is that people are less likely to notice your misdemeanours, they open up to you more, are a touch easier to retrieve information from civilly. Obvious advantages for combat gear in a firefight, it could also make you seem more intimidating in conversation, make it easier to threaten information out of people.

This take is a bit ideal, assuming that the AI is pretty smart, and conversation is quite complex and perhaps has an element of chance. I'd be very interested in a better exploration of social interaction in upcoming articles, I still can't visualise how the conversations will work.

Corpus
9th Aug 2010, 21:55
I've been thinking about this as well... is this going to become as certain a tell as "chest-high walls", in your average cover-TPS? If it is, I'll be very disappointed. Uncertainty is a great way to build suspense. C.f. the first time you go through the first part of The Cradle in Thief: DS. Whatever flaws that game has, The Cradle was one of the creepiest levels I have ever played in a game.

I too hope the chest-high walls don't plague this game. It was absolutely blatant and annoying in ME2, especially towards the end. I've bought thief: deadly shadows but haven't played it that much.

Angel-A
9th Aug 2010, 22:00
I read this thread and the only thing I can think of is "Where does Adam put his coat".

Spyhopping
9th Aug 2010, 22:02
Yeah, I thought that too. Probably the same place JC keeps his GEP gun.

MaxxQ1
9th Aug 2010, 23:11
Just a little speculation/conjecture on my part, but maybe the coat is on by default, and then anytime you pull a gun, activate the blades, or whatever else can be construed as beginning combat, then the coat comes off. This would eliminate the worry that the coat coming off telegraphing that a combat situation is coming up. As for having the coat off in convos, maybe there's a toggle for that, depending on how you may want to influence or intimidate the person you're talking to?

WildcatPhoenix
9th Aug 2010, 23:39
I've been under the impression (perhaps falsely) that the coat changes between missions. In other words, missions like Hong Kong or Hell's Kitchen would involve the civilian jacket, but assignments like Ocean Lab or Area 51 would be the armor vest.

If that's the case then I'm okay with it. Hell, I'd rather see a Hitman style option to change clothing anyway. Just imagine how cool it would have been for JC to sneak into an MJ12 facilty wearing an MJ12 commando suit (at the expense of disabled augs, or something). Or get an informant to open up by wearing an NSF outfit, at the risk of being shot at by the cops/UNATCO.

Wishful thinking by now, of course.

Fluffis
9th Aug 2010, 23:57
I've been under the impression (perhaps falsely) that the coat changes between missions. In other words, missions like Hong Kong or Hell's Kitchen would involve the civilian jacket, but assignments like Ocean Lab or Area 51 would be the armor vest.


If it could be that Adam wears the armor vest on those kinds of missions, even though there is little or no enemy activity as well, it would be all right. It's just that if it is only for missions with heavy resistance, it takes a bit of the uncertainty - and suspense - out of a level. In that case, if at the start of a level we can see that he wears an armor vest, we know that that means there will be a lot of enemies in that level. Conversely, when he wears the coat, we know that there will be little or no active enemies. That can become boring. It's like a big neon arrow pointing at the level saying "This is how the level is going to play out".

tartarus_sauce
10th Aug 2010, 00:12
I wish every game took the Hitman route and let you disguise as enemies. It always annoyed me in spy games (Deus Ex, Alpha Protocol, Metal Gear Solid), that I couldn't put on an enemy uniform- especially since they have masks and whatnot!

That said, think about it: in the future, IFF is going to be too sophisticated to accomodate that. Even street gangs would be able to afford to have RFID (radio frequency identification). One assumes that the HUD's (heads up displays) of tactical operators would have a very easy time catching you.

As to the specific question here, I need to know more! OP should lay the cards on the table. What are your basing your concern on exactly?

FrankCSIS
10th Aug 2010, 01:17
With a bit of cleverness, they could actually play on that. Throw in some certainty for comfort early on, and then mess around with the player's mind when he's in a comfort zone.

Surprise action in coat mode could have an even greater impact than plain uncertainty. In the same vein, combat armor zone could have a level half-devoid of enemies, thus building great anticipation. You know you'll get hit, you just don't know when.

Mix and match really, and pace it accordingly.

Fluffis
10th Aug 2010, 01:51
With a bit of cleverness, they could actually play on that. Throw in some certainty for comfort early on, and then mess around with the player's mind when he's in a comfort zone.

Surprise action in coat mode could have an even greater impact than plain uncertainty. In the same vein, combat armor zone could have a level half-devoid of enemies, thus building great anticipation. You know you'll get hit, you just don't know when.

Mix and match really, and pace it accordingly.

Exactly. If they do that, it would work. It could even be completely brilliant (not unlike The Cradle in DS).

It's just that I'm not holding my breath, considering the way these things are handled normally (the infamous chest-high walls, for instance).

Angel-A
10th Aug 2010, 05:47
Yeah, I thought that too. Probably the same place JC keeps his GEP gun.
I'm still trying to figure out why the GEP gun is only heavy when he's armed with it but not when he puts it away.






...His trenchcoat is augmented...

WildcatPhoenix
10th Aug 2010, 13:02
I'm still trying to figure out why the GEP gun is only heavy when he's armed with it but not when he puts it away.


...His trenchcoat is augmented...

Lol yeah this has always been a slightly ridiculous part of games (not just FPS games, either). Some recent shooters have restricted the player's inventory to one large weapon, one secondary, and then a tool belt. I prefer just to file it under the "suspension of disbelief" category.

Reminds me of a line in the DX mod I used to be working on. The player approaches the guy at the armory and haggles for an extra couple of explosives. The armory sergeant gives him the extra LAMs, but if the player keeps frobbing him he says, "How much do you think you can carry under that jacket?"

Delever
10th Aug 2010, 15:33
Reminds me of a line in the DX mod I used to be working on. The player approaches the guy at the armory and haggles for an extra couple of explosives. The armory sergeant gives him the extra LAMs, but if the player keeps frobbing him he says, "How much do you think you can carry under that jacket?"

Whole GEP gun mate, whole GEP gun.

Red
10th Aug 2010, 15:48
And 20 rockets for it. I'm afraid to guess where he's keeping those :D

pringlepower
10th Aug 2010, 15:51
And 20 rockets for it. I'm afraid to guess where he's keeping those :D

Maybe it folds away Mass Effect style. And the Dragon Tooth is awfully big for just being a scabbard

Pretentious Old Man.
10th Aug 2010, 17:55
Maybe it folds away Mass Effect style. And the Dragon Tooth is awfully big for just being a scabbard

I think it's meant to be like a lightsaber, where the blade is formed by the hilt when activated.

pringlepower
10th Aug 2010, 18:20
I think it's meant to be like a lightsaber, where the blade is formed by the hilt when activated.

Ugh, I meant hilt. Sword vocabulary fail. But yeah it should be as large as a chocolate bar.

Pretentious Old Man.
10th Aug 2010, 18:28
Ugh, I meant hilt. Sword vocabulary fail. But yeah it should be as large as a chocolate bar.

I don't think it's as big an issue as the GEP gun or the law. I mean, it can't be that big, nothing you can't hang from your tool belt.

ME's system of having everything visible would be good.

Angel-A
10th Aug 2010, 18:29
I noticed that, too. If you look closely it appears to form up the blade when you take it out, it even says it forms on command. My guess is that the devs made it take up all that space to keep a good inventory size to ass-kicking ratio.

Our next mystery is what incredibly poor resource management skills people seem to have considering there are hundreds of huge crates that all contain things nothing more than one little multitool or perhaps an ammo clip.

Pretentious Old Man.
10th Aug 2010, 18:37
I noticed that, too. If you look closely it appears to form up the blade when you take it out, it even says it forms on command. My guess is that the devs made it take up all that space to keep a good inventory size to ass-kicking ratio.

Our next mystery is what incredibly poor resource management skills people seem to have considering there are hundreds of huge crates that all contain things nothing more than one little multitool or perhaps an ammo clip.

The question also stands about how someone as heavy as JC, complete with ubertech, can stand on rather flimsy cardboard boxes? (as opposed to the normal crates)

Angel-A
10th Aug 2010, 19:10
The question also stands about how someone as heavy as JC, complete with ubertech, can stand on rather flimsy cardboard boxes? (as opposed to the normal crates)
Oh yeah, because everyone knows an old cardboard box lying in a garbage heap can support hundreds of pounds of weight. :hmm: Not to mention, these huge cardboard boxes are always empty, even when it's implied they're being used for storage/packages (and when it's just for trash... Haven't these people ever heard of crushing boxes?).
Something I also noticed: throwing one of the little tiny boxes destroys it, seems highly unrealistic.

Hey, you know something I really like? How absurd amounts of ammo and biocells are literally just lying around the streets and buildings.

pringlepower
10th Aug 2010, 19:19
Hey, you know something I really like? How absurd amounts of ammo and biocells are literally just lying around the streets and buildings.

Well wasn't there a civil war a couple years ago? (ammo)

As for biocells... there are at most five people in the world with any use for those, if Gunther and Anna use biocells. Maybe they're... collectibles? That's how Jade Empire attempted to rationalize everyone selling magical gems that only you could use.

Corpus
10th Aug 2010, 19:26
Theres no need for rational explanation to EVERYTHING it is just a game after all. Realism does not always equate to fun.

pringlepower
10th Aug 2010, 19:30
Theres no need for rational explanation to EVERYTHING it is just a game after all. Realism does not always equate to fun.

Fiddlesticks!

WildcatPhoenix
10th Aug 2010, 19:50
What puzzled me was how the engine could've handled items inside the cardboard boxes. All the tools are there to put items in them (and several mods have done so), yet they were always empty.

To be honest, a lot of the items in Deus were relatively useless, too. They could've scripted a couple of scenarios where you trade a pack of cigarettes for information (I know plenty of smokers who would trade state secrets for a ciggy if they've gone a few hours without one!) Zyme also could've had some limited benefits beyond trade value, like maybe added speed at the expense of some health.

Irate_Iguana
10th Aug 2010, 20:41
As for biocells... there are at most five people in the world with any use for those, if Gunther and Anna use biocells.

All the MJ12 Commandos use them as well. They are implied to be the standard batteries of the DX universe.

Jerion
10th Aug 2010, 21:54
Well duh. Everybody knows that you can't entrust the safety of a single lockpick to a measy cardboard box! You're gonna throw that **** in a nailed together wooden crate 5 times the needed size!

K^2
10th Aug 2010, 22:15
UNATCO had problems with soldiers selling off military supply on the side. Universal crates was the best solution they could come up with. Are you going to pay a 1000 credits for a crate that might end up containing just one lockpick? And are you going to risk selling a crate for 50 credits, when it might contain a top secret prototype augmentation canister, for which the command will simply shoot you on the spot?

Of course, that did result in a lot of crates being misplaced in shipping, which actually explains why so many valuable crates have found their way onto the back streets of shady places.

Angel-A
11th Aug 2010, 01:03
All the MJ12 Commandos use them as well. They are implied to be the standard batteries of the DX universe.
I asked my brother what he thought and he said they actually leave them around to appease J.C. so he will perhaps not kill them :p
Though seriously, that's about what I had figured, that they're really run-of-the-mill batteries. Mechanics seem to carry 'em, also.



Well duh. Everybody knows that you can't entrust the safety of a single lockpick to a measy cardboard box! You're gonna throw that **** in a nailed together wooden crate 5 times the needed size!
SO TRUE.



Theres no need for rational explanation to EVERYTHING it is just a game after all. Realism does not always equate to fun.
Cool story, bro.



Well wasn't there a civil war a couple years ago? (ammo)
And ammo would be lying around for several years after that...?

Delever
11th Aug 2010, 01:05
And ammo would be lying around for several years after that...?

It is not simple ammo, it is slowly turning into universal, of course it would.

Angel-A
11th Aug 2010, 01:13
It is not simple ammo, it is slowly turning into universal, of course it would.

How dare you mention the universal ammo, such depravity.

pringlepower
11th Aug 2010, 01:23
And ammo would be lying around for several years after that...?

In 2023 scientists at Oxford University found that crates of ammo don't move. And can be confused for crates of bananas.

Pretentious Old Man.
11th Aug 2010, 13:59
Theres no need for rational explanation to EVERYTHING it is just a game after all. Realism does not always equate to fun.

http://e-watchman.com/storage/Burning%20at%20the%20stake.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1263745812837

BURN THE BLASPHEMER!

tartarus_sauce
12th Aug 2010, 01:23
Speaking of giant boxes containing nothing, or only one item...

Remember in the original Half-Life when you'd open a box? All sorts of crap would fly out. A thousand hats and mines, for example. Then it would disappear, revealing the specific gameplay-relevant item. I kind of like that, although I think a better system would be not to leave things in boxes at all. It's a bit of a cliche.

pringlepower
12th Aug 2010, 02:24
Speaking of giant boxes containing nothing, or only one item...

Remember in the original Half-Life when you'd open a box? All sorts of crap would fly out. A thousand hats and mines, for example. Then it would disappear, revealing the specific gameplay-relevant item. I kind of like that, although I think a better system would be not to leave things in boxes at all. It's a bit of a cliche.

Best item in container ever: stripper in cake. Let's have those in the Hive. For funsies

Jerion
12th Aug 2010, 02:44
Best item in container ever: stripper in cake. Let's have those in the Hive. For funsies

That cake is augmented.

You knew that was coming.

Pretentious Old Man.
12th Aug 2010, 11:01
That cake is augmented.

You knew that was coming.

The cake was a lie.

boom boom.

DXeXodus
12th Aug 2010, 11:28
I love how this thread came off the rails and just kept on going. brilliant :D

Pretentious Old Man.
12th Aug 2010, 15:04
It was OT for a whole page. I consider that an achievement.

mad_red
12th Aug 2010, 21:25
UNATCO had problems with soldiers selling off military supply on the side. Universal crates was the best solution they could come up with. Are you going to pay a 1000 credits for a crate that might end up containing just one lockpick? And are you going to risk selling a crate for 50 credits, when it might contain a top secret prototype augmentation canister, for which the command will simply shoot you on the spot?

Of course, that did result in a lot of crates being misplaced in shipping, which actually explains why so many valuable crates have found their way onto the back streets of shady places.

Wouldn't that create a culture of Wirts?

I've always been perplexed how the lockpick doesn't rattle around in the box when I throw it.
"Our crates are augmented"

Angel-A
12th Aug 2010, 23:00
The cake was a lie.

boom boom.

JC stared down the cake until it gave him the truth.

Jerion
12th Aug 2010, 23:28
JC stared down the cake until it gave him the truth.

"Strange...Why would a bakery need electronic security?"