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Paradoks
28th Jul 2010, 00:57
After nearly a year on this board I think it's time for my first thread ;).
At first I would like to thank Divine Shadow for his brilliant research. Without it I wouldn't have stumbled upon what I have found.

If this has been posted somewhere already, I sincerely apologise for wasting everyone's time, but this is new to me, and hopefully to everyone else.

So a short history first. As you all know Divine Shadow has discovered many interesting previously unseen artwork.
And he also posted it on Neogaf (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=22550397&postcount=1). The content is similar to what he posted on this board, but one thing caught my attention: Concept art of a female Sarafan Warrior.

While I was a little disappointed with the concept itself (because I think that a suit that exposes the belly button does not deserve to be called an armour and belongs to a medieval fashion show and not a battlefield :p), it caught my eye because I haven't seen it anywhere before.
The style clearly pointed to Daniel Cabuco's online portfolio (http://spectraljin.com/Soul_Reaver_Portfolio.htm).
I have been to that site many times, but I didn't see that particular image. When I open the site I only see 35, somewhat awkwardly placed links to the authors works. I have always assumed that that's the way it was supposed to work, but this find raised my doubts.

First I assumed that my browser may be playing tricks on me, so I checked with another browser, and when that had the same result I decided to check the source of the page. Everything was working accordingly to the code - the 35 links were the only ones programmed.

So where has this image come from? I'm still curious where Divine Shadow has found that image, because what he posted on Neogaf was of a lesser quality to what I found.

Trying to find the source I googled "Female Sarafan Warrior". And one of the results was this (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/Sarafan/Female%20Warrior.htm). The URL obviously referred to Daniel's portfolio, but I couldn't reach that part by simply browsing his page. The structure of the URL suggested that I may actually find something more.

And I have: the full content of the website (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/). Material that was there all along (since 2006 to be precise) but was not accessible through "legal" means.

I haven't seen everything yet, but there are some concepts that I haven't seen anywhere before. Unseen characters like the Shadows (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/Shadows/Shadows.htm), or Sarafan priest (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/Sarafan/Sarafan_priest.jpg) and unknown concept for old characters like sluagh (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/Sluagh/sluagh%20model%20sheet.jpg) and hunters (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/Hunters/VH_Giant_mdlsheet.htm).

There is also some interesting information. Was anyone sure what Kain's symbol really represents? We know (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/SR1_misc/Kain%20symbol.htm) now.


// Edit:
Doing some further research I have found that actually I wasn't the first to find this (http://nosgoth.yuku.com/reply/151572#reply-151572). But since I don't recall being it posted or discussed here I think this thread still deserves some attention.

The_Hylden
28th Jul 2010, 02:19
Actually, looking at that female Sarafan concept, that's supposed to be a mid section armor piece, not open showing her belly. It's colored gold like the rest of the gold pieces to her armor and has detailed flowering over it near her ribs and down by her hips.

It's great to see more of his unadulterated work, like the textures and murals, before the games (especially the SR1 textures) dumbed them down, or the damage to the murals were added.

Interesting confirmation: it was supposed to be "a few years" from when Kain told Raziel Janos must stay dead, and Raziel disappeared to Spectral, until when Kain returned in the opening of Defiance. That's why the Sarafan had updated their armor look. It wasn't a simple in game change -- it had a story purpose. I wonder what Kain was doing for those years, or if he jumped ahead in time using the Chronoplast?

Another confirmation was that the female depicted getting killed in the one SR2 mural was the Balance Guardian. She's probably the same one that Vorador obliterates the flesh of in the BO1 cinematic, lol

I have the texture for the SR1 Kain, but it's nice to see the entire thing laid out in full like that. Very detailed. The SR2 textures are even more so. It doesn't label them either way, but the textures for Moebius, Kain, and Raziel are from SR2, while the 3D models are from Defiance... Kind of a mix-match of things, but it shows you just how much more detailed the textures of SR2 on these three were than Defiance, really. Defiance had better model body types, but not better detailed textures for some of the players.

So the small demons were just supposed to surround you out of nowhere until the Fire Demon could filet you into oblivion... lol, people thought those little demons that spawned now and then were the Fire Demon's babies :D

Paradoks
28th Jul 2010, 02:49
Actually, looking at that female Sarafan concept, that's supposed to be a mid section armor piece, not open showing her belly. It's colored gold like the rest of the gold pieces to her armor and has detailed flowering over it near her ribs and down by her hips.

You are right. That changes everything. :D
Note to self: don't comment on pictures when your laptop is running on a battery and you considerably reduce brightness to save power ;).
I'm just allergic to a thought of having something remotely similar to the female "armour" that we have seen in BO2 in any other LoK title.


So the small demons were just supposed to surround you out of nowhere until the Fire Demon could filet you into oblivion... lol, people thought those little demons that spawned now and then were the Fire Demon's babies :D
The thought of them surrounding the player seems rather funny, considering that many people haven't seen a demon spawn once despite playing several times through the game.

Escaton
28th Jul 2010, 18:02
All of this stuff is old news. Some guy at Nosgothic Realm already discovered the hidden sections and posted about the missing years between SR2 and Defiance. Most of the interesting developments for LoK recently have been happening at that site: all of Divine Shadow's findings ended up there first, one of the Dark Prophecy artists posted on their forum and somebody discovered the 500 year gap in SR1, so I hold that you people seriously need to check it more often.

Still, nicely done regardless.

The_Hylden
28th Jul 2010, 18:22
Other people can do what they want, but I have nothing to do with that site, never will again. The only thread I keep bookmarked is the link to all of the interviews in the Library there, but that's it.

Escaton
28th Jul 2010, 19:02
Er, why is that, exactly?

Umah Bloodomen
28th Jul 2010, 19:24
Please take the conversation through private channels so as to avoid sparking a "board war".

Thanks! :)

Escaton
28th Jul 2010, 19:38
Hold on a second, I have absolutely no intention or interest in provoking an inter-forum war, especially since I'm not even registered at Nosgothic. My only point is that most recent LoK stuff is coming out of there but isn't really spreading to the official forum, so maybe a thread for "recent developments" or something would be worthwhile here. This thread makes it clear that not everyone is willing or able to check both sites despite the common cause.

Anyway I didn't wish to derail Paradox's thread or discredit his findings or anything, so I'll withdraw and apologies if I have steered it in the wrong direction.

Paradoks
28th Jul 2010, 23:41
All of this stuff is old news. Some guy at Nosgothic Realm already discovered the hidden sections and posted about the missing years between SR2 and Defiance.
And that's why I edited my first post with the link. As I said, I just wasn't aware of this at the time of posting. But since it is new to at least some people I still think it's good that I posted it. The truth is that ultimately every piece of information posted anywhere will be new to someone. If I write right now that Raziel's design has it's origins in the movie the Cabinet of Doctor Caligari and Hindu tradition, then it is new to some people, but many fans are perfectly aware of it.
And since I found it independently I have a clean conscience that I didn't steal anyone's work :D.

I think that I may be going off-topic in a thread that I started myself, so it's time to focus on the main topic.
I have a few observations, and I would like to hear others' opinion on them.



Another confirmation was that the female depicted getting killed in the one SR2 mural was the Balance Guardian.
I don't think that the confirmation was necessary because the symbol clearly gave it away. But I think that the more interesting thing is this: about the “caped guardian” (who accordingly to Dark Chronicle (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/guardians.php) is the States Guardian): (underlining is mine)


Incidentally I added the Pillar guardian symbols later on to help identify which guardian bit the dust.
Why was the identity of the other guardians not revealed like the Nature Guardian, but purposefully hidden?

I noticed a small difference between the concept art the priestess and the in-game model. The symbols (including the important Melchiahim symbol) were not present on the original concept. That may suggest that the idea of putting the vampire symbols on the “bosses’” armour appeared later during the development.

Another thing I noticed:

For Defiance we added Aikido style pants and color coding for the Sarafan.

Colour coding? I assumed (by looking at the armour of the leaders in the ending of SR2) that that was present in SR2 already – Sarafan colours correspond to their vampire counterparts. I always thought that uniform colours in Defiance were a consequence of that. The only problem messing up the hierarchy were “Melchiahim” sorcerers, but that can be (in a not very convincing way :D) explained by them being of the higher rank within their house, chapter or whatever the Sarafan counterpart of a clan is), especially since it supports their role as a support spell caster unit (hinted in SR2).

And does anyone have any theories about what this sketch may represent?
sketch2 (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/Kain/sketch2.JPG)
The date next to the signature implies that it was drawn in the year of SR2 release.

And the last thing:

This mural in Sarafan Stronghold of SR2. It depicts Vorador's destruction of the original Pillar Guardians. Since it was supposed to have been painted by the Sarafan, it completely demonizes Vorador. I wanted to have a totally different mural appear when Raziel goes to spectral, but unfortunately he never goes back to that room ingame.

I really wish that made it into the game.
Alongside the Shadows (which I think may have been an original idea for shades). The idea of enemies merging into more powerful enemies has a lot of potential.

RainaAudron
29th Jul 2010, 06:11
how about Kain and William mural? It just won´t load for me :( does anybody have it?

Paradoks
29th Jul 2010, 07:24
how about Kain and William mural? It just won´t load for me :( does anybody have it?
The file is corrupt, but I have it on disk somewhere. I remember saving that long ago. I can't even remember how I got it :). I'll update once I find it.

Bound2Fate
29th Jul 2010, 07:40
And does anyone have any theories about what this sketch may represent?
sketch2 (http://spectraljin.com/Soul%20Reaver/Kain/sketch2.JPG)
The date next to the signature implies that it was drawn in the year of SR2 release.


Interesting. That's obviously Raziel's cowl. It looks like they could just draw in Raziel's face and Kain would be grabbing him by his cowl. Kain and Raziel are destined to fight each other so that picture may just be a representation of that.

RainaAudron
29th Jul 2010, 07:51
thanks Paradoks.

and that sketch - looks like Kain is holding Raziel´s clan flag to me

Rivenmjk
29th Jul 2010, 08:08
Raina I had asked Daniel himself about the murals not working long ago and he said he would reupload them when he revamps(get it) his website.

:)

RainaAudron
29th Jul 2010, 08:35
yey, thanks majinkura :)

Paradoks
29th Jul 2010, 09:09
thanks Paradoks.

and that sketch - looks like Kain is holding Raziel´s clan flag to me

I know it's Kain holding Raziel's flag :D. I just can't place it. Why, where and when does he hold it. The first thing that crossed my mind was holding Raziel's "cowl" after him being absorbed into the Reaver.


Raina I had asked Daniel himself about the murals not working long ago and he said he would reupload them when he revamps(get it) his website.

:)


In the meantime :)
Chapel mural (http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8361/5183625d2bad0918a9fd733.png).

RainaAudron
29th Jul 2010, 09:41
well, the problem with Raziel´s cowl is that it is part of him as a wraith, it is not a material thing anymore

thanks for the mural, Paradoks ;)

Paradoks
29th Jul 2010, 15:26
Yes, the cowl is a strange thing. It acts as if Raziel's jaw was still in it's place.:whistle:
But indeed, it cannot be the cowl because of the colour scheme (symbol being darker than background).

Maybe it's just something that's left from some unfortunate high ranked Sarafan warrior? :D

FearGhoul
29th Jul 2010, 21:44
It looks more to me to be referring to when Kain had Raziel's clan exterminated. I swear I've seen that picture before.

Paradoks
30th Jul 2010, 09:00
It looks more to me to be referring to when Kain had Raziel's clan exterminated. I swear I've seen that picture before.
At this point Kain exterminating Raziel's clan still remains a theory (although a one with a very high probability), because the creators refused to confirm this and stated (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=651&postcount=2):


Q: Kain says he destoryed what he created. Did he destory Raziels clan, or did
they die out like the ancients, being they are similiar?
A: This is currently unrevealed.

Tenaya
2nd Aug 2010, 23:56
It looks more to me to be referring to when Kain had Raziel's clan exterminated. I swear I've seen that picture before.

I knew it looked familiar to me as well, so I ran a search through the files on my computer. Apparently it was submitted to Nosgoth.net as fan art under an alias in March, 2001! : D If I was ever aware that was Dan Cabuco, I certainly didn't remember. That was very cool of him.

A lot of the story seems to have been reconceptualized between work on Soul Reaver and Soul Reaver 2, as the original concept for Shifter continued to be adapted to the world and characters of LoK. So I wouldn't necessarily take this as a confirmation that Kain was responsible for wiping out the Razielim. The interview that Paradoks linked to regarding this question is more recent. I'd still like to see the matter explored in a future game.

Paradoks
6th Aug 2010, 22:24
I knew it looked familiar to me as well, so I ran a search through the files on my computer. Apparently it was submitted to Nosgoth.net as fan art under an alias in March, 2001! : D If I was ever aware that was Dan Cabuco, I certainly didn't remember. That was very cool of him.


Interesting. The description (http://nosgoth.net/fanart/gshock1.htm) says:

Here's a painting I did of Kain holding Raziel's clan symbol. Presumably at the time of the Razielim genocide. Done entirely in Painter (total cyberart)
I know I'm nitpicking but actually it's not Raziel's clan symbol (it's missing the "square"), but a half of Raziel's symbol. I like the word "presumably" ;).
So I guess that now we just have to do some steganographic hacking of the picture ;).

DCabuco
13th Sep 2010, 23:22
Erm, technically it is Raziel's Clan symbol. Only the Lieutenants themselves had the reflected double-symbol. :P That's the way they were meant to work, and how you know a boss' area from the general clan area.

-DC :wave:

Paradoks
14th Sep 2010, 03:58
Hello mister Cabuco. Please excuse my suspiciousness (from my experience I can say that this is actually a very useful trait ;)) – I know that you already have an account on these forums (from 2002). May I ask why you are not using that one?

I realise that the double symbols were meant for lieutenants (that's why I said “half of the symbol”). I was referring to the missing "square" (http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7351/clansz.png). From what I have seen in SR1, the “square” was always present on single (http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/1708/symbols1.png) (clan\area) symbols, but never on double (http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/409/symbols2.png) (lieutenant) ones. That was my conclusion from the game, so a single symbol without the square seemed incomplete to me.

And by the way, I envy your Talent :flowers:.

Escaton
14th Sep 2010, 16:17
Wow!!! One of the LoK creators posting here!

If this is indeed you, Daniel, may I just say the artwork you and the team have created is among the best in videogaming. I strongly hope you end up working on at least one more LoK game in the near future. :)

The_Hylden
14th Sep 2010, 17:38
I second that :)

DCabuco
14th Sep 2010, 22:52
Hello mister Cabuco. Please excuse my suspiciousness (from my experience I can say that this is actually a very useful trait ;)) – I know that you already have an account on these forums (from 2002). May I ask why you are not using that one?


I tied that account to my Crystal D email. Since I don't work there anymore, and I forgot my pw some time ago, I just made a new one. Dunno how to prove to you that I'm me.. um.. post a drawing? lol

As for the square, I just forgot to paint it. :P It was just a quickie anyway.

And talent is simply matter of practice and hard work. I have this whole theory about observational awareness and physical ability guiding how someone gets better at art. (or anything)
I'm glad to see all the renewed interest in LOK, and that people still dig it. :)

dumah's wraith
16th Sep 2010, 09:36
I tied that account to my Crystal D email. Since I don't work there anymore, and I forgot my pw some time ago, I just made a new one. Dunno how to prove to you that I'm me.. um.. post a drawing? lol

It's nothing personal. We had a Chris Bruno impersonator a while back.

Paradoks
24th Sep 2010, 19:44
Dunno how to prove to you that I'm me.. um.. post a drawing? lol

I know it was meant as a joke, but...:whistle: You do realise that no sane LoK fan would miss such opportunity, right? :D
And as dumah's wraith said - unfortunately there is a reason as to why people are cautious.


As for the square, I just forgot to paint it. :P It was just a quickie anyway.

A quickie. With my "skill" it would have taken me about a week to make something remotely similar :(.