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Tecman
15th Jul 2010, 19:21
We kind of expected it, but it's nice to see (unless you're opposed to or just don't like Steam, of course :) )

http://store.steampowered.com/app/39170/

Not yet in the "Coming Soon" list, neither does it have a preorder price, but it's there. If you're a Steam fan, this is probably where you're going to be buying it (me, I'll definitely be getting it from here). If you're not a fan, then there's at least this to go over:

Key features:

- The long-awaited return of the award winning franchise that blends the best of Action and RPG: the perfect mix of combat, stealth, hacking, and social gameplay.
- Play as Adam Jensen, a mechanically augmented agent: customize and upgrade your character with more than 50 unique augmentations that support your style of play.
- Deadly weapons: Over 20 available weapons, each with their own customizable elements.
- Fight enemies including dangerous thugs, augmented special operations soldiers, advanced robots; and engage in epic boss battles.
- Live the reactive and dangerous world: your choices will have consequences in the game’s world.
- Play in an open-ended world: there are always multiple solutions to every challenge.
- Engage the unique Cyber Renaissance setting: discover a unique world that blends near future and Renaissance elements.
- Travel the world: visit multiple unique locations across the globe each with their own design, story and gameplay elements.
- Become involved in vast global conspiracy: unravel the story — discover who you can really trust.
- Decide humanity’s future: the decision you make and the actions you take will lead to an ultimate decision on mankind’s future.

Kodaemon
15th Jul 2010, 19:24
I just really, really hope Steam is not forced unto the boxed version.

SethSteiner
15th Jul 2010, 20:11
As long as my right to sell the game, if I want to, is untouched I don`t really care.

xfxcrcm
15th Jul 2010, 20:23
I just really, really hope Steam is not forced unto the boxed version.

Why, because you're some kind of big baby who bawws about WAH MY RIGHTS AS A CONSUMER WAAAAH while ignoring the implications that the fluidity of electronic data has for intellectual property rights?

Or at you just dense and contrarian enough to hate one of the few worthwhile online services.

SethSteiner
15th Jul 2010, 20:32
Do you really want to discuss the right of the consumer and on top of that, speaking against them? What`s next, discussing why we need traffic lights? Ridiculous. I don`t care about steam or other "services", I don`t like them, I don`t hate them, I am neutral to them until I can just buy, install and play. End of story.

St. Mellow
15th Jul 2010, 20:38
http://jokersmilez.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/obvious_troll.jpg

xfxcrcm
15th Jul 2010, 20:44
Do you really want to discuss the right of the consumer and on top of that, speaking against them? What`s next, discussing why we need traffic lights? Ridiculous. I don`t care about steam or other "services", I don`t like them, I don`t hate them, I am neutral to them until I can just buy, install and play. End of story.

Haha look at this nub.

It's entirely reasonable to approach intellectual property as digital media in terms of rights and licenses, and that's exactly what companies do when they bundle with steam or other DRM.

Don't like it? Buy a different game. If it's a big enough deal a title will tank because of it. But guess what? This virtually never happens because most consumers aren't spoiled babies like you. Most of them don't care.

SethSteiner
15th Jul 2010, 20:53
*shrug* sorry that I am a person who insists on his rights who he has here in good old europe but hey, if you want to play the Steam-Fanboy go ahead, not my problem if you don`t care about the mechanism of a constitutional state and just want to consume and consume without looking what`s the price for it.

xfxcrcm
15th Jul 2010, 20:58
The price of it? What exactly is the price of treating IP as IP when it's as untethered from a physical artifact as video games are?

There is literally no difference between video game DRM and that little blurb at the start of DVDs telling you about how unauthorized reproduction and exhibition are illegal and how the DVD complies with the Berne Convention.

PenguinsFriend
15th Jul 2010, 20:58
;1450021']http://jokersmilez.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/obvious_troll.jpg

It took me a few moments to see the troll :o

Ashpolt
15th Jul 2010, 21:26
As far as I'm concerned, this is only good news. I am a fully paid up member of the Steam fanclub, and *ahem* wuv it 2 bits. ^_^ *ahem*

All of the rest of this post comes with the caveat of "if I buy the game": it's pretty obvious from my previous posts that this is far away from a foregone conclusion, but I didn't want to leave any ambiguity. :P

Personally, I hope the boxed version does use Steam, because I like having box / instruction manual / special edition extra features (if good) as well as the bonus of not having a disc check and being able to install it on my Dad's PC as well if I want. If it's a choice between Steam or a boxed copy though, it'll be a tough choice, and I'll probably just go with whichever's cheapr. If I buy it at or near launch, that'll likely be the boxed copy - thank you for your glorious £17.99 deals on PC games, Play.com - but on the other hand, if I want 6 months or so I might snatch it up for an even more bargainous price on Steam. Even if it does turn out to be crap, I'd be willing to pay £3 in a Steam sale to at least laugh.

Tecman
15th Jul 2010, 21:57
Personally, I hope the boxed version does use Steam, because I like having box / instruction manual / special edition extra features (if good) as well as the bonus of not having a disc check and being able to install it on my Dad's PC as well if I want.

Well, technically, me too. But that would mean that the people who just aren't into Steam get shafted, and I don't want that. I don't want my preferences to intrude on theirs. There should be options.

Dead-Eye
15th Jul 2010, 22:22
Steam doesn't work for people under 52kb/s. Even then really you need at lest 2mb/s to get you're games in a reasonable amount of time.

Vendetta11
15th Jul 2010, 23:20
Hell yes, good news. I personally love steam...........

Shralla
16th Jul 2010, 00:00
Steam doesn't work for people under 52kb/s.

Yeah, I forgot that we should pander to people who are living fifteen years in the past.


Even then really you need at lest 2mb/s to get you're games in a reasonable amount of time.

That's just stupid. Even at a quarter that speed, you can still get a 4 gig game in a couple hours. Hit download, drive around a bit, and pretend you spent that time going to the store, I don't care. It's not that big a deal. I have a regular ass Comcast connection, and I never get less than 1mb/s on Steam.

Ashpolt
16th Jul 2010, 01:22
That's just stupid. Even at a quarter that speed, you can still get a 4 gig game in a couple hours. Hit download, drive around a bit, and pretend you spent that time going to the store, I don't care. It's not that big a deal. I have a regular ass Comcast connection, and I never get less than 1mb/s on Steam.

You do realise a 2mb/s connection is not the same thing as a 2mB/s download speed, right? Quarter of that speed is a 512kb connection, where you'd be lucky to get 50kB/s download speed, at which speed it would take you roughly a day to download a 4Gb game.

As above, I love Steam (largely because I am on a 24mb/s connection,) but I fully realise that because it's great for me, doesn't mean it's great for everyone.

sonicsidewinder
16th Jul 2010, 02:29
and engage in epic boss battles.

They dropped the 'E-Bomb'. Guarenteed sales brutha.

Sabretooth1
16th Jul 2010, 03:06
Anyone notice the new stuff?

But when a black ops team uses a plan you designed to break in and kill the scientists you were hired to protect, everything you thought you knew about your job changes.

Adam designed the plan? That could explain all the pages of paper hanging around in his apartment. But it also adds an extra layer - what if Adam was indirectly made to create the plans as per the black ops' wishes? Can get pretty complex.

FrankCSIS
16th Jul 2010, 03:12
We've heard this early on, but the second part of the sentence was different. In my head, I always figured Adam was responsible for the containment security plan, and this very plan was reversed engineered to attack the place, possibly from an inside job. I also suspect that while the head of the corp may be an obvious supect, he probably isn't behind it.

Badmaker
16th Jul 2010, 07:55
Yeah, I forgot that we should pander to people who are living fifteen years in the past.

Your lucky ure living in a developed country.



@Tecman, thx for info but i wanted to hear this one from the Eidos comunity guy.

Kvltism
16th Jul 2010, 11:27
I just really, really hope Steam is not forced unto the boxed version.
Agreed.

Arkray
16th Jul 2010, 11:37
I just really, really hope Steam is not forced unto the boxed version.

I hope the same exact thing :(

DXeXodus
16th Jul 2010, 11:53
Well I would be devastated if DXHR forced steam with the retail version. I personally do not have internet access at home at the moment. I use my works internet to fulfil all of my current internet needs. Developers should not be naive in assuming that the whole world has stable internet connection capable of downloading multiple gigs just so they can play the game that they just bought.

I do not have anything against steam and I am happy for those people who use and enjoy it everyday. But I do share the same opinion as many other members that you simply cannot beat a retail boxed version. I want to have a disk and a physical manual to read while I install the game. Maybe it's just the old school gamer in me :)

Fluffis
16th Jul 2010, 13:20
Well I would be devastated if DXHR forced steam with the retail version. I personally do not have internet access at home at the moment. I use my works internet to fulfil all of my current internet needs. Developers should not be naive in assuming that the whole world has stable internet connection capable of downloading multiple gigs just so they can play the game that they just bought.


I've never had that experience with a game (buying it retail, and having it going through Steam), but I thought that just meant that they used Steam as authentication? Not that you actually had to download it from there.

If what you say is the case, then it seems like a really crappy set-up.

Ashpolt
16th Jul 2010, 13:47
I've never had that experience with a game (buying it retail, and having it going through Steam), but I thought that just meant that they used Steam as authentication? Not that you actually had to download it from there.

No, you're right, it still installs from the disc (though once the game is in your Steam library, you can choose to download it if you wish.) Authentication doesn't even take that long nowadays - on my connection, it's less than a minute, though I accept it may be somewhat longer on slower connections. It's certainly not the several minute process that it was when Half Life 2 was launched though.

Fluffis
16th Jul 2010, 13:59
No, you're right, it still installs from the disc (though once the game is in your Steam library, you can choose to download it if you wish.) Authentication doesn't even take that long nowadays - on my connection, it's less than a minute, though I accept it may be somewhat longer on slower connections. It's certainly not the several minute process that it was when Half Life 2 was launched though.

I have to say, that I can't really understand the hatred for Steam. I mean, sure; you don't really "own" the game (that one could turn out to be annoying), and it requires that you go online... once. I mean, you don't even have to stay online to play the game. I frequently play my Steam games offline (I'm on a University network, with login).

simulacra
16th Jul 2010, 14:12
I like authourizing my retail games on steam, I broke my HL2 disc back in the day, but why care when I can redownload it anytime I want on steam?

xsamitt
16th Jul 2010, 14:16
I have to say, that I can't really understand the hatred for Steam. I mean, sure; you don't really "own" the game (that one could turn out to be annoying), and it requires that you go online... once. I mean, you don't even have to stay online to play the game. I frequently play my Steam games offline (I'm on a University network, with login).

I agree...there are far worse versions of DRM.And for the love of God,please don't limit the installs.That would be the final nail in the coffin.

PenguinsFriend
16th Jul 2010, 15:24
No, you're right, it still installs from the disc (though once the game is in your Steam library, you can choose to download it if you wish.) Authentication doesn't even take that long nowadays - on my connection, it's less than a minute, though I accept it may be somewhat longer on slower connections. It's certainly not the several minute process that it was when Half Life 2 was launched though.

HL2 was my only experience with STEAM - it put me off for life :(

Ashpolt
16th Jul 2010, 16:15
Yeah, I figure that's probably the case with a lot of people who dislike it now. I wasn't a big fan back in the time of HL2 either. But give it a try again now (particularly when they've got a big sale going on!) and you'll find that it's improved massively.

PenguinsFriend
16th Jul 2010, 16:41
Yeah, I figure that's probably the case with a lot of people who dislike it now. I wasn't a big fan back in the time of HL2 either. But give it a try again now (particularly when they've got a big sale going on!) and you'll find that it's improved massively.

Question - if I buy a game on steam, is it mine, i.e. i can play it even if they decide not to support the game any more or something like that? I guess what I'm trying to find out is if there is a scenario whereby after I bought the game I would ever be unable to play it?

Artfunkel
16th Jul 2010, 16:49
We can now get at the original, uncompressed, no-logo screens through the Steam site. Open whichever one you want in a new window and remove the "1920x1080" (or whatever it says on your system) from the end of the filename. Voila! (http://cdn.steampowered.com/v/gfx/apps/39170/ss_2826a5581aa28a2b031bb86c2b13e1f331c42bcc.jpg) :)

http://cdn.steampowered.com/v/gfx/apps/39170/ss_2826a5581aa28a2b031bb86c2b13e1f331c42bcc.jpg


Question - if I buy a game on steam, is it mine, i.e. i can play it even if they decide not to support the game any more or something like that? I guess what I'm trying to find out is if there is a scenario whereby after I bought the game I would ever be unable to play it?

Games have been pulled from the store before, but they remain playable for those who bought them.

PenguinsFriend
16th Jul 2010, 16:52
^ ty!

Pretentious Old Man.
16th Jul 2010, 16:54
In an ideal world, I would prefer no DRM at all, a la SoaSE, including the inventive systems for patches requiring information of purchase.

However, in a non-ideal world, I can live with Steam. Trouble with it is, it doesn't always work in offline mode when an update is coming. Still, Steam is a lot better since the last update.

super...
17th Jul 2010, 02:52
remimber kids, before engaging with a person in a forum discussion imagine the other person with a neatly folded tin foil hat on their head.

Ashpolt
17th Jul 2010, 13:39
Let me tell you something about intellectual ownership: This fat grabby slug Gabe ‘Jabba the Hutt’ Newell didn’t program DE3 - the modern equivalent of Beethoven’s 9th, he was only the one who created this little buggy digital content distribution platform called Steam,

Neither did the guy who will sell it at my local game store. Or anyone from Amazon or Play, or any other medium you care to mention. As you say, Steam is a distribution platform - the same as any of those. Valve may not have programmed most of the games that are sold on Steam, but they provide the hosting space for them (can you even begin to imagine how expensive that must be?) as well as providing a distribution channel that already has millions of users. That's why they get money for it. And it obviously works for the developers as well, otherwise they wouldn't use Steam.


which forces us users to live with unacceptable time-robbing malfunctions, like bandwidth, server and update problems.

...And those things show you either have never used Steam, or haven't used it since its very earliest days. As with pretty much everyone who complains about Steam.

Ah, why am I even trying? Not one part of your posts speaks of rationality, so being rational isn't going to be useful.

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 13:53
...And those things show you either have never used Steam, or haven't used it since its very earliest days. As with pretty much everyone who complains about Steam.

Ah, why am I even trying? Not one part of your posts speaks of rationality, so being rational isn't going to be useful.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the case.

It's really quite astonishing. I haven't seen this much hatred for Steam before. It's so damned irrational.

If anyone doesn't want to be hooked up to Steam while playing a game, then don't be online! Just go to the "Steam" menu in the Steam window, choose "Go Offline", and play the game!

****, it's not that hard!

Corpus
17th Jul 2010, 14:00
Everyones main complaint is the server and update problems. Yet in all my time using steam these mantinence times occur for a mere 20 minutes, maybe less. I've been a member since early 2005 and I've never had any problems. I think I'll keep my frequent updates thanks.
Also, what bandwidth issues occur with steam? I've never had any at all. If you're on a bandwidth limit then you need to think about getting a different provider who offers unlimited. Sure you're probably going to run into a 'fair usage' policy but it's worth it if you game a lot.

Kodaemon
17th Jul 2010, 14:38
If you're on a bandwidth limit then you need to think about getting a different provider who offers unlimited.

You think I wouldn't, if I had an option? :mad2: There's just no proper internet/phone infrastructure around where I live. I have an option of the single gsm modem that seems to work here, or satellite, which is a bit faster, but with the same monthly limits and hideously overpriced.

Corpus
17th Jul 2010, 15:32
-snip-
Scratch that, just tried it and it doesn't work.

There was a way before where you could start a game without steam. Though it probably got fixed because you could install games from any account and play them that way.

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 16:04
-snip-
Scratch that, just tried it and it doesn't work.

There was a way before where you could start a game without steam. Though it probably got fixed because you could install games from any account and play them that way.

Yeah, it must have been removed fairly recently too. You have to start Steam with a game now, but you can still play the games without being online.

TrickyVein
17th Jul 2010, 16:16
All I know is this: I used to play Portal from Steam when they had offered it as a free download a while back.

There'd be long stretches when I hadn't played the game and whenever I revisited it, I had to wait ~ 45 minutes to an hour just to update whatever crap had come baggaged with the title: Achievemnets? Stats? I don't know what it was doing, and I didn't really care to find out or to deal with the annoyance anymore.

I don't play Portal anymore. :rolleyes:

super...
17th Jul 2010, 16:48
yeah waiting for updates can be a pain, it's something i would hate to have on an iPhone game or something, i can see why it would be a problem with something nice quick and casual like portal.

but it can also be really great, because hey it's usually free stuff and not just them fixing a problem. like TF2, when that starts up and needs to patch i quickly click the update info. it's like unwrapping a new present!

Pinky_Powers
17th Jul 2010, 18:14
Sure, it can be annoying waiting for a game to update, but really, who the f**k cares? Your game is updating by it's self, for free. And all you have to do is wait a little while. Jesus! What's the big goddamn deal?!

I've owned Steam since Christmas of 04, after unwrapping Half-Life2. There's been some occasional issues along the way, but nothing that would put me permanently off Steam or all the outstanding games that work with it.

TrickyVein
17th Jul 2010, 18:26
Who the frak cares? I care! I want my cake and I want to eat it too! All of the goddamn time!

I play games impulsively most of the time. Having to wait that long just to begin playing is a total mood killer.

I never said that I hate steam with a passion, only that was my experience and it was enough to put me off playing the goddamn game. I never update my junk anyways unless there's a specific bug/issue that I've noticed which needs fixing, so I couldn't care less about the automatic updating anyway. An example: the patch for ME screws up my realteck audio - the fix they provided don't do ****, son - it seems that steam would pile such a patch onto my game "automatically, for your convenience" when in fact I don't want the goddamn patch!!!

MechBFP
17th Jul 2010, 18:30
Who the frak cares? I care! I want my cake and I want to eat it too! All of the goddamn time!

I play games impulsively most of the time. Having to wait that long just to begin playing is a total mood killer.

I never said that I hate steam with a passion, only that was my experience and it was enough to put me off playing the goddamn game. I never update my junk anyways unless there's a specific bug/issue that I've noticed which needs fixing, so I couldn't care less about the automatic updating anyway. An example: the patch for ME screws up my realteck audio - the fix they provided don't do ****, son - it seems that steam would pile such a patch onto my game "automatically, for your convenience" when in fact I don't want the goddamn patch!!!

Then how about turning off automatic updates?
My guess is with the ADHD you have you're just too impatient to be smart.

Tecman
17th Jul 2010, 18:45
Then how about turning off automatic updates?
My guess is with the ADHD you have you're just too impatient to be smart.

Well, to be fair, disabling updates doesn't actually disable updates. :o What the option actually means is "Don't download updates on your own, acquire and apply them when I start the game." There have been numerous threads on this issue in pretty much every forum I visit, begging for a "Never update this game" feature.

So, yeah. You pretty much need to play games in Offline mode if you want to avoid them being updated at all.

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 18:55
Then how about turning off automatic updates?
My guess is with the ADHD you have you're just too impatient to be smart.

Actually, his was the only really valid reason for disliking Steam that I've read. You can't play the game without updating, if there is a patch available. It's just not possible.

Kodaemon
17th Jul 2010, 19:04
What's worse, you can't patch a Steam game outside Steam. I could swallow downloading patches at an internet cafe, then applying them home, but that's not possible.

So I have to wait days upon days for the games to update, not just because of the general slowness of my connection, but also because Steam times out every now and then, or corrupts the download and has to start from scratch.

EDIT: Oh, and another gripe - all games have to be installed in Steam's own directory. Which means I'm constantly juggling for space on that partition. Fun as hell.

ArcR
17th Jul 2010, 19:10
Ah, why am I even trying? Not one part of your posts speaks of rationality, so being rational isn't going to be useful.

I had written a reply then erased it. Then I wrote a funny/sarcastic reply but ultimately drew the same conclusion you did.

Tecman
17th Jul 2010, 19:13
So I have to wait days upon days for the games to update, not just because of the general slowness of my connection, but also because Steam times out every now and then, or corrupts the download and has to start from scratch.
Oh, that's not corruption, that's Steam's silly way of presenting updates. It's not showing 0% of the entire download (aka a reset), it's showing 0% of what's left to update. :lol: Unless of course you mean the entire download of a game, which has gone corrupt for me like twice since 2004/5 - I think it was Dead Space and Mirror's Edge. I bet that would have been annoying as hell on a slow connection. Then of course there's Relic games - Patch means full re-download! Ugh.



EDIT: Oh, and another gripe - all games have to be installed in Steam's own directory. Which means I'm constantly juggling for space on that partition. Fun as hell.
Two ways around that: dedicated Steam harddrive (this is my case, 1.5 TB has carried me a long way, but I'll be running out of space fairly soon) or learning how to do NTFS linking with Junction Point(s). :)

Kodaemon
17th Jul 2010, 19:22
I do mean corruption. I had to manually delete Steam's cache files a couple of times because of that.

And about the partitions: sure, I could do all that, but wasn't Steam meant to make my life easier?

Tecman
17th Jul 2010, 19:36
The stupid things (no-one will tell me that Steam doesn't do stupid things once and a while, come on, this is coming from an addict to the service) are just something you either have to "ignore" because of the other advantages (YMMV), tolerate them or you're pretty much required to avoid the service, especially if your internet isn't quite fast. I'd probably go mental on a slow connection with no possibilities to upgrade, too.

This is why I take issue with anyone saying "Just make everything Steamworks!". Sure, I love it to death, but there need to be alternatives for those who don't/can't to be able to pick up a vanilla physical copy.

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 20:10
Why can’t they develop something easier than Steam, something which is safe and needs only an absolute minimum of data exchange, something like eDNA?


Have you tried Direct2drive?

ArcR
17th Jul 2010, 20:15
EDIT: you are clearly insane or trolling. Obviously you could just buy the physical copy of any of the games you listed but you just registered this account to rant.

Kodaemon
17th Jul 2010, 20:25
Obviously you could just buy the physical copy of any of the games you listed

Newsflash: the physical copies of the latest Total War games come with Steam. And that's what we're ranting about here.

ArcR
17th Jul 2010, 20:44
Yeah but the complaints are about downloading games via steam. All it takes is a one time authentication not an entire download.

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 20:56
Yeah, five minutes ago: The page is slow.

But thanks, Direct2drive could be a true alternative for me especially in comparison with Steam. And the speed doesn’t matter after the game is down on the disc. I wish us all the luck they are going to offer DE3, too.

Many thanks again, that was a really useful hint! :thumb:

No probs.

Yeah, I've used it a couple of times. It's slow from time to time, since I don't think they have the same capabilities as Steam, but it's run by IGN, so I'm guessing it's as safe as it can get. If you can get to it when there's not a lot of traffic, it can get really fast. Don't forget to choose region. It can help with the speed as well.

Ashpolt
17th Jul 2010, 20:58
a load of nonsense

I was going to type a serious response, but as ArcR said, you're clearly insane or trolling. You've "tested" Steam have you? And that's enough for you to know it's an unfinished prototype? Well I use it on a nearly daily basis and in my experience, it's a finished, fully working platform.

Kodaemon, on the other hand, knows how to make a valid point in a rational way (though I disagree) so he can get a sensible response.


You think I wouldn't, if I had an option? :mad2: There's just no proper internet/phone infrastructure around where I live. I have an option of the single gsm modem that seems to work here, or satellite, which is a bit faster, but with the same monthly limits and hideously overpriced.

This is a fair enough point, and about the only genuine reason I can see for people disliking Steam. Thing is though - and I'm sure you understand this, but for the benefit of those who don't - that's not actually a problem with Steam, it's a problem with the internet infrastructure in your area. It's like saying "I don't like Ferraris because the roads around my house are full of potholes - no, 4x4s are much better." The Ferrari's still a great car, it's just not suited to your circumstances. Incidentally, I think this may be the case of a lot of your problems with it timing out etc - I've had circumstances where I've been downloading 2 games at once and had no issues. I'm not saying "I have no issues, therefore Steam has no issues" but it does seem to be pretty much 1:1 when comparing "people who have slow or limited internet connections" with "people who have problems with Steam" here.

The partition problem I'll give you though, I don't have different partitions or multiple hard drives so I've never encountered that.

ArcR
17th Jul 2010, 21:03
What about updates. Would you like to buy those at your local store too?

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 21:05
:lmao:

Empire: Total War Download Minimum System Requirements

* This game uses Steam for DRM.

(Found on Direct2drive.)


Ouch. That's something new, I think. It's been a couple of years since I used it last.
Oh well, I guess you're stuck with it. :)

TrickyVein
17th Jul 2010, 21:28
*grabs popcorn*

Movie time! I love this melodrama.

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 21:42
I don’t believe you if you say that there have never been any problems with stream. Which games do you play with Steam? How long do you have to wait till they start? Never any problems with updates? Can’t be! Did you hear about the Empire update which made it impossible to play it for a few days?

Actually, I have over 20 games on Steam, and the problems I have had with it have been the kind that happen on "patch day" for most other games as well. The average loading-time (since I usually play them in offline-mode) is about 10 seconds, not counting the start-up of the game itself.

Sometimes Steam can bug out at the start though, but then it's usually a simple matter of cancelling start-up and trying again. Then it kicks off without a hitch, for me at least. Major problems have been extremely rare for me.

ArcR
17th Jul 2010, 21:44
derp a herp derp :nut:

Not able to play for a couple days? That isn't enough. You need to leave the computer, exit your secret lab and get outside. Sunshine is currently the only know cure for troll brain disease.

Have fun cause I'm done.

pringlepower
17th Jul 2010, 22:09
Not able to play for a couple days? That isn't enough. You need to leave the computer, exit your secret lab and get outside. Sunshine is currently the only know cure for troll brain disease.

Have fun cause I'm done.

Not a bad time to quit: you have exactly 0451 posts

xsamitt
17th Jul 2010, 22:24
I'm OK with steam as I've said before.As long as it not limited installs and I can buy a hard copy and steam is used I'm fine with it.Quite fine infact all things considered.

Ashpolt
18th Jul 2010, 01:49
Now you are trolling, aren’t you? I repeat: Rationality depends on the logical structures they are connected with. Your disability to recognize any of these logical structures can have many reasons, maybe a lack of literary ability or a missing symmetry in the architecture of our consciousnesses or maybe you simply have a problem with ADS? Who knows?

It's amazing that you can type so much and say nothing. Also, the word you're looking for is "inability" not disability. If you're going to be pretentiously pseudo-intellectual, at least try to do so correctly.


I don’t believe you if you say that there have never been any problems with stream. Which games do you play with Steam? How long do you have to wait till they start? Never any problems with updates? Can’t be! Did you hear about the Empire update which made it impossible to play it for a few days?

I have probably around 30 games on Steam. As I've said before, I had problems in the very early days - around Half Life 2's launch - but the system has come on a long way since then. And yes, I've played Empire Total War, and was immensely grateful to have Steam automatically download the patches for me because the game was - and still is - a buggy mess. If there was an update which caused it to be unplayable for a few days - I didn't encounter that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - then that's The Creative Assembly's fault for putting out a bad update, not Steam's fault for delivering it.

Anasumtj
18th Jul 2010, 02:22
I don’t believe you if you say that there have never been any problems with stream. Which games do you play with Steam? How long do you have to wait till they start? Never any problems with updates? Can’t be! Did you hear about the Empire update which made it impossible to play it for a few days?

Yeah... I can download Morrowind and Oblivion both in around half an hour to forty-five minutes through Steam. A minor update to Portal that I have to download once and never worry about again is something I recall surviving with relative ease. My Steam library is actually quite sizable and with no difficulty to manage, and the last time I had a significant problem with the platform was probably back in its early days. And if I ever do have a problem with the game (usually after too much mod fiddling), I can just delete its local data and make a fresh install in a matter of minutes.

You sound absolutely hysterical and it's highly amusing.

Anasumtj
18th Jul 2010, 04:40
Oh my! We have waded off into the deep end, haven't we.

You should write a book in which you can endlessly bemoan the state of society. Or, like, a blogspot account. Surely that would be a better forum for your theatrics instead of battling phantom internet teenagers on a gaming message board.

Note: I also like how you bypassed the swear filter with your 1337 spelling. Just adorable.

Pinky_Powers
18th Jul 2010, 05:33
Why didn’t they test it before?

This one question is a prime example of your pettiness. It perfectly embodies everything wrong with you.

1. Who's to say they didn't?
2. Who's to say the issue you encountered was experienced in the general community?
3. They are not obligated to test every file and update their service interacts with.
4. It is not possible for them to test every file and update their service interacts with. The shear weight of this concept fractures reality.
5. Steam did not make the game, and Steam did not make the update. Yet you blame them for everything.

It's a lovely scenario we see so often on the net; a raunchy pigf**ker issues forth its mutant squeal, bemoaning the "immature teens" they find themselves contending with. All the while you clamber about with foolish, petty and little complaints.

It makes ya wonder just how old you are. And be warned, if you're older than thirteen, it's not looking so good for you.

hem dazon 90
18th Jul 2010, 06:19
there should be steam for consoles.

ooshp
18th Jul 2010, 08:54
... a raunchy pigf**ker issues forth its mutant squeal, bemoaning the "immature teens" they find themselves contending with.

I'm stealing that line. Thanks. :)

super...
18th Jul 2010, 09:48
Sorry for that. English isn’t my native language; I knew it was something with ‚ability’. But hey, 7 out of 9 - that’s still not bad for using no dictionary. I don’t want to know how many mistakes you commit in different tongue than your mother’s one, just for the case you’ve learned a second. But that’s not important. My foreign language skills aren’t the reason why you can’t follow my argumentation. It’s more likely that you don’t want to understand: Steam works for you, so why should you care about all the others who don’t have the same luck. I bet ‘moral’, ‘justice’, ‘solidarity’ and ‘commitment’ are foreign words for you, no matter in which language you hear them - even if it is your first.


Ok how your posts have been written makes a little more since, language and all that. i have trouble with English and it's my native tung.

Being in a country where the service works is fantastic. for the first time ever it feels like i actually own something. i can download my steam games to any new computer i want, it's great and it keeps old games available for a long time.

Steam is probably not a solution for where you live and that sucks, especially if it has content you cant get to elsewhere. but if i could chose free health care, education, or any number of benefits that other places give their citizens or steam i would drop steam in seconds. america is a raw deal for 99% of the people here.

if you live in a truly terrible part of the world then maybe scrape together what you can and move.

Ashpolt
18th Jul 2010, 09:54
Sorry for that. English isn’t my native language; I knew it was something with ‚ability’. But hey, 7 out of 9 - that’s still not bad for using no dictionary.

Didn't realise English wasn't your first language, my apologies.


I don’t want to know how many mistakes you commit in different tongue than your mother’s one, just for the case you’ve learned a second. But that’s not important. My foreign language skills aren’t the reason why you can’t follow my argumentation.

And then you wade in with the ad-hominem. Oh goody.


It’s more likely that you don’t want to understand: Steam works for you, so why should you care about all the others who don’t have the same luck. I bet ‘moral’, ‘justice’, ‘solidarity’ and ‘commitment’ are foreign words for you, no matter in which language you hear them - even if it is your first.

I understood the point you were trying to make, and even addressed it in my response to Kodaemon with the Ferrari / 4x4 comparison. Your second sentence in this quote bears no relation to the first, and is ludicrous.


And apropos pseudo-intellectual: If I really were that, I would say something elaborate like ‘In 1868 Dostojewski wrote a whole book about you.’, but hell no! A simple ‘You s!()”, naive and irresponsible acting little pr!(<!’ does it also for me.

And again with the ad-hominem. If you want to be taken semi-seriously, not be considered a troll, and especially not look unbelievably hypocritical when calling someone an "irresponsible acting little pr***" then you're going to want to cut back on this.


Why didn’t they test it before?

Because it's not Valve's job to test it. Do you think the guy behind the counter at your local game store tests every game before he sells it? Do you think your waiter at a restaurant tests your food to make sure the chef has cooked it right? Again, Steam is just the middle man between developer and consumer, the delivery platform, not the content creator.

Kodaemon
18th Jul 2010, 11:32
The ferrari comparison doesn't work, by the way. I'm not saying Steam sucks in general, I'm saying it sucks when it's forced. It's like I want to buy that 4x4, but i can ONLY buy it bundled with a ferrari that I have no use for, that I can't sell, and that I have to do tedious maintenance on else the 4x4 breaks too.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
18th Jul 2010, 13:03
Second hand sales are hurting the industry financially, you'd have to be a complete idiot to expect companies to ignore the fact they spend millions on development, earn money for the sale at release and then see GAME re-selling their games at a fraction of the price in the next few weeks. Retailers like GAME and Gamestation are making money off each sale made and re-selling the game in the high street. The big companies lose out, GAME and Gamestation rake it in.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=246257

And there's nothing wrong with Steam, it's a great distributor of games.

Kodaemon
18th Jul 2010, 13:11
Oh please :rolleyes: Let's ban reselling anything! Used car sales hurt the automobile industry too, don't they?

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
18th Jul 2010, 13:20
Oh please :rolleyes: Let's ban reselling anything! Used car sales hurt the automobile industry too, don't they?

You still have to maintain a car by buying parts from the supplier.

The first game to require an "online pass" is Tiger Woods 2K11, expect many to follow suite soon. I can see why companies would be pissed at maintaining online games for people that haven't even bought the game yet. You have to see it from their point of view, not the greedy consumer who want everything for free.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/USD10-for-mp-in-pre-owned-ea-sports-titles

Fluffis
18th Jul 2010, 13:33
Oh please :rolleyes: Let's ban reselling anything! Used car sales hurt the automobile industry too, don't they?

Trust me: if the car industry could have it another way, they would. With computer games it's possible, so they do it.

The sad thing is that game developers brought this on themselves. Longevity in games has been removed from the list of priorities. Replay value is slowly becoming a thing of the past. SDKs are becoming more rare. It's about making games that sell massive amounts of copies as quickly as possible (accessibility), for as much money per game as possible (consoles). Then they do it as quickly as possible again. When the next title comes out, they need the players to stop playing the old game.

The reaction? The old game gets sold second-hand, to afford buying the new one. Instead of someone new buying the old game by paying the developers, they pay the merchants exclusively.

And then game companies have the gall to complain about it.

ⓣⓐⓕⓕⓔⓡ
18th Jul 2010, 13:39
The sad thing is that game developers brought this on themselves. Longevity in games has been removed from the list of priorities. Replay value is slowly becoming a thing of the past. .

Could not disagree more. Batman: AA and Bioshock 2 scream out longevity, Borderlands... and that's just the B's. You can play the game a million different ways and still enjoy it.

Fluffis
18th Jul 2010, 14:10
Could not disagree more. Batman: AA and Bioshock 2 scream out longevity, Borderlands... and that's just the B's. You can play the game a million different ways and still enjoy it.

If you compare the number of games that you can do that in, to the number that you can't, I think you'll find that those kinds of games are severely outnumbered. But replay value can still only extend the lifespan of a game to a certain point. After a while you will have played it every possible way. Some games this is not a problem with. They are simply so damn good, that you can play them over and over again even after beating them every possible way. These are extremely rare.

The thing that really increases the longevity in a game is an SDK. When people can (relatively easily) construct mods for a game, the longevity can, potentially, be increased to infinity. This is something that very few devs want these days, and so they don't release an SDK for their games. The ones that do, are the ones that the most gamers tend to think fondly of - actually having fond feelings for the devs and the company themselves. The others are, usually, simply remembered as "the ones who made that game", if people even bother to learn the name.

Anasumtj
18th Jul 2010, 19:15
He used "amoeba" as an insult.

This guy's ******* classy.

Ashpolt
18th Jul 2010, 20:16
There is a deeper relation and the reason why you still can’t see it says everything about you.

Ah, yes, the old "if all else fails, claim your nonsense is simply too deep for other people to understand" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIbBbI2T1sc&feature=fvst) defence.


Also, looking back over your posts, I believe you're confusing rationality with relativity, which is why your points related to this aren't making any sense.
That’s exactly the whole issue about Steam: If a game is published via Steam, there’s simply no alternative left. I know that Steam doesn’t program patches but it forces you to use them*, so after all they are also responsible whether the game works or not.

*At least this was the case when I tested Steam the last time. I had no choice which updates I wanted to use, because with every start Steam searched for new ones and installed them automatically. And that’s exactly what drives me really mad: With a maximum download speed of 28 kb/s every forced update is simply nerve-stretching and afterwards nobody guarantees that the game runs better than before. Offline mode? Forget it, you must log in online, and then it switches into the offline mode, but before it downloads and installs half of the internet.

This is actually approaching on making a decent point in a decent way, so congrats for that. However, as with Kodaemon, this is a problem with your internet connection, not with Steam. I appreciate that for those of you without a good internet connection, Steam must royally suck, and I do sympathise: however, that's not a fault with Steam itself, if things were only ever invented on the basis of "it's got to work for absolutely everybody" then we'd never get anywhere. Like I say, I sympathise with your situation here, I really do, but come on - 28k? I had twice that speed in 1999. On that kind of connection, flash heavy websites must take quite a while to load as well - I dread to think how long it would take you to load the front page of IGN - so should we get rid of those as well? At the end of the day, Steam is an internet based distribution service, so "my internet is too slow for it" is about as valid a criticism as "my pentium 2 with a 16Mb voodoo graphics card can't play Far Cry, thus Far Cry sucks."

Your criticism about it forcing you to download patches is a valid one, however. It doesn't make them responsible for the content of those patches though - that's always going to be a developer's job, not the distributor's. And it's only a problem on initial install: after that, you can switch to offline mode permanently (or until you install another game) and never be bothered by patches.

Pinky_Powers
18th Jul 2010, 21:05
Does he really think using words he believes are "intellectual-sounding" suddenly makes his point valid?

By the way. I am just as much against being forced to use Steam as anyone. Steam works great for me, but I don't think it should be forced on everyone.

That said, when I see a poor argument against something, I am still going to confront that and try and drill some sense into you. Or in this case, just give Ashpolt a little backup.

Anasumtj
18th Jul 2010, 21:09
OH SHI DOUBLE POST BADNESS

edit*

Anasumtj
18th Jul 2010, 21:15
I have to admit, I have some fond memories of the big patch day for most major games around the turn of the millennium. Hastily reading through the patch notes, waiting in queue for my file to be available, downloading a huge .exe file, then watching it unfurl all its goodies onto my C: drive. Ahh, memories.

Of course, I'm sure that nostalgia is centered more around the patch event itself rather than the actual process. These days - particularly with multiplayer games - auto-patching is just way too convenient (and perhaps necessary) for me to really be bothered by it.

The only time it really annoyed me was when Half-Life: Episode One got patched shortly after its release and basically nerfed the section where you have to battle zombies while waiting for an elevator to descend. Bug fixes and all that are dandy, but modifying the actual gameplay content in such a manner rubs me the wrong way. It would be cool if Steam allowed you access to a patch history so you could just select which version you want to be updated to. But it's not like the old days where you just had a huge patch update a few times a year. The prevailing model currently is with smaller patches, but more frequent. I can't imagine anybody sifting through all the updates that were released for, say, Half-Life 2.

Corpus
18th Jul 2010, 23:57
It is a little tough forcing steam onto people but it's the only decent DRM thats worked that barely anyone complains about. There's always going to be someone making a crack for DRM unfortunately.

Irate_Iguana
19th Jul 2010, 06:33
It is a little tough forcing steam onto people but it's the only decent DRM thats worked that barely anyone complains about. There's always going to be someone making a crack for DRM unfortunately.

What do you mean worked? You can find almost all, if not all, the steam games on the various download sites. As with all DRM give the pirates a week or two and it will be available.

Corpus
19th Jul 2010, 10:39
What do you mean worked? You can find almost all, if not all, the steam games on the various download sites. As with all DRM give the pirates a week or two and it will be available.

Worked that barely anyone complains about

You forgot that bit. It's the only form of DRM people have no real quarrel with. Beats online passes and limited installs. Yeah you can find the steam games on download sites but some of the games actually require steam for you to run.
They're beginning to make it so some games are only downloadable through steam (not counting if their retail or not in which case they require steam) which cuts out the other download sites.

Kodaemon
19th Jul 2010, 17:11
Whoop dee do, I just bought another boxed game (Saints Row 2. Shut up.) without realising it's Steam-infested.

And guess what: I can't even log in to Steam to begin installation. "Could not connect to the Steam network".

Corpus
19th Jul 2010, 17:16
Steams logged in fine for me. Reinstall steam.

Kodaemon
19th Jul 2010, 17:20
I'll reinstall YOUR FACE.

Corpus
19th Jul 2010, 17:22
I'll reinstall YOUR FACE.

That's nice.
Could you actually attempt it so that I can try and help you?

Kodaemon
19th Jul 2010, 17:26
Look, you don't know what you're talking about here. I won't do this, since I know it will turn into a two-month odyssey to get anything working again. As it always does with Steam.

Corpus
19th Jul 2010, 17:27
Look, you don't know what you're talking about here. I won't do this, since I know it will turn into a two-month odyssey to get anything working again. As it always does with Steam.

Maybe google search can help you instead. Guess you've wasted money, that is if you have actually bought the game and you're not just saying all this to grief steam.

Kodaemon
19th Jul 2010, 17:31
Fortunately, I already found the place again which helped me to bypass Steam for FEAR2.

Shralla
19th Jul 2010, 17:41
Maybe google search can help you instead. Guess you've wasted money, that is if you have actually bought the game and you're not just saying all this to grief steam.

I can kind of see where he's coming from but honestly, who lives somewhere that doesn't offer broadband Internet? I imagine he probably still lives with his parents, so it's no choice of his, but still!

Kodaemon
19th Jul 2010, 17:52
Look, we just built this house, nice neighbourhood, practically bordering with a wildlife reserve. Beautiful, quiet place. Downside? No phone lines/fiber/whatever and there probably won't be any for years.

Anasumtj
19th Jul 2010, 18:03
I would rather live in a cardboard box with broadband than an upscale neighborhood without!

Kodaemon
19th Jul 2010, 18:04
Next time I see you, I'lll be sure to mention iron and copper.

Ashpolt
19th Jul 2010, 18:07
Whoop dee do, I just bought another boxed game (Saints Row 2. Shut up.) without realising it's Steam-infested.


Want to know one of the reasons I love Steam? I bought that game for £2.50 during one of their recent sales.

It should say on the back of the box if it uses Steam. All the Steam boxed games I've got do.

Kodaemon
19th Jul 2010, 18:17
Yes, it does say Steam is included. In the smallest print possible. I had to look for it a few minutes before I finally found it. Also, I bought the game for pretty much the same price, it's the second price drop reedition, plus store sale, which took a further 50% off.

Pinky_Powers
19th Jul 2010, 22:21
greed.

I am indeed greedy.

By the way, I knew as I wrote it, you would turn my "intellectual-sounding" comment against me, claiming it was just my own amazement at the weight of your brainy words. I left it in there so it would serve as bait to trap you. What you don't understand is that by clenching on to it, pronouncing your brilliance and my bafflement, you've done all my work for me.

The truth is, your words did not sound smart to me. They stunk of having too much desperation poured into them. Too much need to sound a certain way. I've read truly brilliant writers. Your words were not brilliant. They were sad and poor. And they betray you, Luke.

Ashpolt
19th Jul 2010, 23:56
(Btw: Links containing property of Phony Music Entertainment doesn’t work outside the US&A.)

1) Phony? Oh, you are just hilarious!
2) Strange, I don't live in the USA, and it worked for me.


You must confess: The chance exists and it’s much larger than you would ever concede. When Einstein published his special theory of relativity only a half-dozen people on the whole planet (!) understood immediately the whole meaning of his work, but even for them a last quantum of doubt remained … and now, hundred five years and some solar eclipses later tell me who was (to 99 %) right? How long do we have to wait until you recognize and admit your error?

I admit that there's every chance I'm wrong, but you've done nothing to convince me so. Also, despite your high opinion of yourself, you're no Einstein.


I didn’t write that but I wrote:

Under specific circumstances rationality and relativity are the same. I’ll give you an example:

‘The next statement is true.
The previous statement is not true.’

Which statement is true and which one is false, can they both be true at the same time? Figure it out by yourself and transfer your insights to our little discussion here, and then - because I’m tired of doing your homework - answer me one question: Are these specific circumstances given in our discussion? Yes / no and why?

Entirely irrelevant, and a simple attempt to distract from the point at hand.


+ x - = -

My whole argumentation - from the early beginning on - followed this simple scheme. [...] I committed one giant mistake when I started complaining about Steam: I expected other users to analyse the problems with Steam with the same uncompromising and mature objectivity I did.

You’re contradicting yourself, Ashpolt. + x - will never be +. I know it and you know it. But for some unknown stupid reason you can’t confess your mistake and that’s why discussing with you is an endless vicious circle with absolutely no progress in sight.

This is fine when discussing maths. Thing is, we're not discussing maths. And before you launch into some nonsense about logic, it's not applicable here. I've not claimed Steam is good if you have a bad connection. I've claimed instead that Steam is good in itself, and as it's an internet content provider, a good connection is a basic requirement for it, in the same way that a good PC is a requirement to play modern games, and as such complaining that it doesn't work on your connection is not a valid criticism of the platform itself, just an incompatibility between the platform and you circumstances. I don't have a helipad on my roof, but I don't complain that helicopters suck just because they're not available to me.

And your claim that you are analysing Steam with "uncompromising and mature objectivity" is laughable. The very argument you are making is based around your own subjective circumstances: if Steam works for even one person - and it obviously does - you cannot claim objectivity when pronouncing that it's terrible. Steam doesn't work for you because your circumstances don't allow it to work - by definition, a subjective argument.


The truth is, your words did not sound smart to me. They stunk of having too much desperation poured into them. Too much need to sound a certain way. I've read truly brilliant writers. Your words were not brilliant. They were sad and poor. And they betray you, Luke.

Exactly. There's no surer way to dispel any illusion of intellect than to try too hard to convey it. A truly intelligent person can make their point in terms that even a child could understand.

Tecman
20th Jul 2010, 04:18
New bit of info has been added to the store page. Release Date: Feb 2011.

Of course we knew about this before, but now it's displayed there as well.

maddermadcat
20th Jul 2010, 05:03
The ferrari comparison doesn't work, by the way. I'm not saying Steam sucks in general, I'm saying it sucks when it's forced. It's like I want to buy that 4x4, but i can ONLY buy it bundled with a ferrari that I have no use for, that I can't sell, and that I have to do tedious maintenance on else the 4x4 breaks too.
Basically this. I don't like the idea of the game installing more crap than I need to play it. It would be great if steamworks' copy protection would work without installing the full client.

Though to be honest, I got steam a while ago just to buy shattered horizon, so it's not like I'll find it problematic. It's a matter of principle, I guess.


If you're going to be pretentiously pseudo-intellectual, at least try to do so correctly.
But using words correctly would be doing it wrong. :hmm:

Ashpolt
20th Jul 2010, 09:06
Give me your e-mail address, I’ll send you a note when they award me the Nobel in a couple of years.

:lol:


I will answer with your words:

Really? There are things in our universe, and I’m not talking about something very difficult like physics or math, which a child could never understand: War, for instance, to pick something easy. Somebody like you would claim war is a necessity because we don’t have the social, political and economical solutions to prevent war under all circumstances. A child, who doesn’t know enough about the world and who still has not learned to think in conventional patterns could understand your point but won’t accept it, because it’s primal intelligence might force it to go into a different direction: War isn’t necessary with the right solutions.

War can be explained in terms a child would understand. It's not necessarily something you would want to explain to a child, but it could be done. But that's besides the point: we're talking about phrasing, not about theme.


Here’s another one of your ignorant posts:

Is that truly intelligent? Now it’s your turn to convince me and don’t forget: I’m the lad who knows the solution for the little problem portrayed above - and who will send you a special note some day. :whistle:

And again you present a half-answer and expect me to fill in the rest - well, I'm not going to co-operate. Either make your own points fully and clearly, or don't, but don't expect me to do your work for you.

And I notice you have completely ignored the one part of my post that was actually about Steam in order to take this discussion entirely off-topic. So, unless you want to actually get back on topic and talk - plainly - about the pros and cons of Steam as a platform, then consider this my last response to you.

K^2
20th Jul 2010, 10:04
J.C.D., you effectively claim that you are right because being right or wrong is relative, and from your perspective you are right (and cannot be otherwise, really), and that Ashpolt is wrong because he disagrees.

And then you claim that Ashpolt doesn't understand logic?

I am speechless.

J.C.D.
20th Jul 2010, 16:41
I’m wasting my time here. Discussions with ignorant people about Steam are even more annoying than using Steam. I know the perfect solution which really works for everybody, but why should I release my ideas in this unqualified environment?

It’s time to progress.

P.S.: Aspolt, you’ll surly recognize me when I enter the field. :rasp:

Pretentious Old Man.
20th Jul 2010, 17:21
I’m wasting my time here. Discussions with ignorant people about Steam are even more annoying than using Steam. I know the perfect solution which really works for everybody, but why should I release my ideas in this unqualified environment?

It’s time to progress.

P.S.: Aspolt, you’ll surly recognize me when I enter the field. :rasp:

You're not Jonas Waever, are you?

BlazeL
20th Jul 2010, 19:29
Want to know one of the reasons I love Steam? I bought that game for £2.50 during one of their recent sales.

It should say on the back of the box if it uses Steam. All the Steam boxed games I've got do.


Yes, it does say Steam is included. In the smallest print possible. I had to look for it a few minutes before I finally found it.

I had a funny experience with SR2. It didn't actually say anything about steam nor on the box nor in the manual. Steam installer just popped up from nowhere after i put the disc in and the process seemed like a normal retail installer. The pop-up scared me like hell as i didn't expect it at all. If that had been my first steam game, i would have been extremely mad at it (i opposed steam for a long time before i tried it, mainly on irrational/emotional bases), but as i bought that game for really cheap at a local store and i have used steam before, i had no problems with it after all. But it was still strange, they should inform customers the requirement of their acceptance of SSA on the box or at least note that internet connection is required to install.

The other ludicrous thing is GTA IV on steam. It requires Rockstar Social Club/Games for Windows - LIVE/Steam just to run one damned game. That's an overkill.


Anyway, steam has its flaws (forced updates, maintenance times, RAM heavy client application, games being overpriced in EUR currency, some VAC controversies etc.) and i don't like when retail games are forcing it; but i like it a lot overall (mainly because of its great deals cause i'm a budget gamer and the in-game overlay's web browser). I prefer the way how UT3 steam release was handled, if you wanted, you could register it on steam and play it form there, or you could just install the retail version without it forcing steam on you. (Even though it is worth to note that UT3 have already used gamespy for DRM/user account management.) But i know there won't be much release like that.

Also, a steam release of DXHR doesn't necessarily mean that the retail version will be tied to steam.

Tecman
20th Jul 2010, 19:45
Also, a steam release of DXHR doesn't necessarily mean that the retail version will be tied to steam.

While this is absolutely true, I kind of think that it will be (sorry). Why? Supreme Commander 2 and Just Cause 2, two games published by Square-Enix, were Steamworks-only titles, and I bought a UK version of Just Cause 2 SE with some physical goodies and DLC keys to activate on Steam. I *think* The Last Remnant was Steamworks-only as well, just checked.

edit: You can see here: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7480-wusf-3601 which games can be activated, although "being able to activate" doesn't mean "needs Steam". For instance, Unreal Tournament 3 can exist just fine without Steam, but you can, if you wish, register its key on Steam.

BlazeL
20th Jul 2010, 22:34
While this is absolutely true, I kind of think that it will be (sorry). Why? Supreme Commander 2 and Just Cause 2, two games published by Square-Enix, were Steamworks-only titles, and I bought a UK version of Just Cause 2 SE with some physical goodies and DLC keys to activate on Steam. I *think* The Last Remnant was Steamworks-only as well, just checked.

I see, there's truly a tendency with Square titles. We'll see how it'll turn out in the case of DXHR.


edit: You can see here: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=7480-wusf-3601 which games can be activated, although "being able to activate" doesn't mean "needs Steam". For instance, Unreal Tournament 3 can exist just fine without Steam, but you can, if you wish, register its key on Steam.

Actually, most games i know from that list requires steam, not just offer the possibility of registration. In fact, UT3 is the only one i know of that can be installed without steam, but that's because it was 2 years old when it hit steam. But perhaps there are more as i don't know them all.

Shinji Ex
24th Jul 2010, 10:24
Doubt my PC will run it
Think I'll be going with console

ikenstein
24th Jul 2010, 12:34
Well, here's another game I'm not going to be buying then. The PC market has been killed by this type of ill thought out, self righteous foolishness.

Here's the scoop. Steam does not hinder copyright infringement in any way at all. This will be available for download for free hours after release. Why? Because it will be decompiled and have the insane drm removed.

And I and many others wont buy the game if it comes with this kind of crap attached. My money, my choice. Steam fanboys need not reply.

puzl
24th Jul 2010, 14:51
Lots of butthurt in here. Steam is fine and has been for a long, long time now. Yes the DRM is easily removed, but it's also one of the least intrustive to start with. The only problem with some steam games (mainly titles like L4D which rely on it completely to start with) is that the game is unplayable online when the steam master servers are down... but I doubt this will be an issue for DX:HR anyway.

Honestly, i'm as anti-DRM as anyone, but publishers have to protect their investments and steam is the best and most acceptable way to do that. Valve know the PC market better than anyone and are in my opinion the absolute best developers alive today.

Enjoy not playing the game ikenstein.

St. Mellow
24th Jul 2010, 15:19
And I and many others wont buy the game if it comes with this kind of crap attached. My money, my choice. Steam fanboys need not reply.

Totally behind this post. Compulsory Steam (or similar) is unacceptable. Same reason I didn't buy Napoleon: Total War. I do not hate Steam and I do use it; but forcing it for a boxed game is unethical, obnoxious, inadmissible, offensive, just plain awful. And, like all forms of DRM, it doesn't even stop piracy. At all. It actually encourages it.

EDIT:
Enjoy not playing the game ikenstein.

Implying Steam would prevent anyone from playing it without paying for it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

puzl
24th Jul 2010, 15:40
;1456977']

Implying Steam would prevent anyone from playing it without paying for it. :lol: :lol: :lol:

So I take it you will be downloading it illegally then?

PlasmaSnake101
24th Jul 2010, 15:51
W
- Deadly weapons: Over 20 available weapons, each with their own customizable elements.
- Fight enemies including dangerous thugs, augmented special operations soldiers, advanced robots; and engage in epic boss battles.


Oh God, I lul'd hard. I remember when the forums were tearing itself apart at the mere mention of boss fights.

Kodaemon
24th Jul 2010, 15:54
Yes the DRM is easily removed, but it's also one of the least intrustive to start with.

Pardon me while I heartily guffaw. No other DRM has been capable of preventing me from playing my legally purchased games for weeks on end.

puzl
24th Jul 2010, 15:58
Pardon me while I heartily guffaw. No other DRM has been capable of preventing me from playing my legally purchased games for weeks on end.

Sorry if you mentioned it previously in the thread, but what game are you having issues with?

I've bought many, many games on Steam and never had a single issue with any of them.

St. Mellow
24th Jul 2010, 16:11
So I take it you will be downloading it illegally then?

Believe me, I'm not even sure if I will even buy/play this game at all yet. Also, none of your business. I'm a law-abiding citizen. What I generally do is completely boycott companies that implement draconian DRM. (See: Ubisoft.) What I'm saying is that neither Steam nor any other type of DRM actually do anything to stop piracy. At all. That's not even an opinion, it's a fact.

ikenstein
24th Jul 2010, 16:12
Sorry if you mentioned it previously in the thread, but what game are you having issues with?

I've bought many, many games on Steam and never had a single issue with any of them.

I don't like being treated like a thief. I don't like 'preparing to launch game' messages for twenty minutes. I don't like adverts popping up all over my PC. I don't like third party software being installed and slowing down my PC. I don't like massive internet installations, after I bought a dvd. I don't like steam.

Now, that's why I don't like the pile of garbage that is steam. Why do you like it so much you come on to forums and agressively defend it?

Corpus
24th Jul 2010, 16:30
I don't like being treated like a thief. I don't like 'preparing to launch game' messages for twenty minutes. I don't like adverts popping up all over my PC. I don't like third party software being installed and slowing down my PC. I don't like massive internet installations, after I bought a dvd. I don't like steam.

Now, that's why I don't like the pile of garbage that is steam. Why do you like it so much you come on to forums and agressively defend it?

What do you mean being treated like a thief.

Preparing to launch pops up for not even a second for me and I've not once seen anyone complain about that.

Adverts popping up on your PC? I don't get any and I've been using steam since 2005.

Third party software can be uninstalled. To get rid of gamespy comrade when i got battlefield 2 i simply deleted the installer.

What game is forcing you to download from net. Why can't you install from disk?

I'd say google these problems but you've already done that, right?

ikenstein
24th Jul 2010, 16:36
What do you mean being treated like a thief.

Preparing to launch pops up for not even a second for me and I've not once seen anyone complain about that.

Adverts popping up on your PC? I don't get any and I've been using steam since 2005.

Third party software can be uninstalled. To get rid of gamespy comrade when i got battlefield 2 i simply deleted the installer.

What game is forcing you to download from net. Why can't you install from disk?

I'd say google these problems but you've already done that, right?


Rubbish, and you know it.

Preparing to launch can take several hours if there's a patch. You have no choice about it. You have to wait. If there isn't a patch it can still take ten minutes, which doesnt sound like much, but is is.

Adverts do pop up, every time you quit the game. Adverts for other games on steam. You know this is trus. So does everytone else who has used steam. So why deny it?

Steam is third party software.

Telling me that steam is needed so that I dont 'steal' the doftware i just bought is treating me like a thief.

Now, answer the question. Why are you defending steam and why do you want to force it on me?

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9337/steamcl.jpg

St. Mellow
24th Jul 2010, 16:40
I don't like steam.

Now, that's why I don't like the pile of garbage that is steam. Why do you like it so much you come on to forums and agressively defend it?

Steam fanboys are very much like their Apple counterparts. Blind faith. Oblivious to the blatant holes that bother most people, they deny, deny and deny some more; confident in the absolute impossibility of the existence of a single dent in the perfect object of their devotion. Reason does not work against these people. We're weaponless in the face of their fanaticism. Note that I am not saying everyone that likes Steam (or Apple) is like this. Most aren't. It is simply the result of same effect we observe in the christian right and other groups: a vocal and fanatic minority gives a bad name to everyone else.

ikenstein
24th Jul 2010, 16:44
And here's the first thing I got when I logged into steam just now, to remind myself how rubbish it is.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5712/steam2l.jpg

Corpus
24th Jul 2010, 16:47
Rubbish, and you know it.

Preparing to launch can take several hours if there's a patch. You have no choice about it. You have to wait. If there isn't a patch it can still take ten minutes, which doesnt sound like much, but is is.

Adverts do pop up, every time you quit the game. Adverts for other games on steam. You know this is trus. So does everytone else who has used steam. So why deny it?

Steam is third party software.

Telling me that steam is needed so that I dont 'steal' the doftware i just bought is treating me like a thief.

Now, answer the question. Why are you defending steam and why do you want to force it on me?

Patches don't take very long. You act like every patch is going to be 1gb or more. 10 minutes to prepare for launch is total BS. If it's installed and fully patched it will launch straight away. You must have a lot of stuff running for it to take that long.

Adverts for sales on steam and updates. It's not hard to click close. Compare that to demos before that would launch a web page or two. If you're really annoyed that much by something insignificant as an update window you have issues.

"Telling me that steam is needed so that I don't 'steal' the software i just bought is treating me like a thief."
It's DRM what do you expect.

puzl
24th Jul 2010, 17:04
Rubbish, and you know it.

Preparing to launch can take several hours if there's a patch. You have no choice about it. You have to wait. If there isn't a patch it can still take ten minutes, which doesnt sound like much, but is is.

Adverts do pop up, every time you quit the game. Adverts for other games on steam. You know this is trus. So does everytone else who has used steam. So why deny it?

Steam is third party software.

Telling me that steam is needed so that I dont 'steal' the doftware i just bought is treating me like a thief.

Now, answer the question. Why are you defending steam and why do you want to force it on me?

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/9337/steamcl.jpg

Sounds more like you're one of the original haters back when Steam was originally released (and admitably flawed) and can't accept that Steam is actually a very good piece of software now. It keeps your whole library of games available to play on demand whenever you want and automatically keeps everything up to date. Not sure how that can be a bad thing!

Any kind of patch for a game will mean an installation process. This has always been the case. It's possible you have an archaic machine with a slow HDD, but never in my life has a patch taken several hours to install. L4D2 updates every friday and the whole process takes approximately 30 seconds, inc download for me. All done in the background too. It even waits until i finish the game before finalising install.

Adverts can be disabled in steam options. Look at the very bottom of settings/interface and untick it.

I find the whole process of digitally downloading games far superior to cluttering my house with CDs now. Plus I have multiple machines/laptops, which I often take away from home. Being able to download, install and play my library of games from a hotel room is perfect for me. Beats carrying a load of discs every time..

Steam makes my life easier. Thats the only reason i'm defending it. I don't care if you want to use it or not, but if you want to play DX:HR, then you have no choice. Deal with it.

puzl
24th Jul 2010, 17:07
;1457037']Steam fanboys are very much like their Apple counterparts. Blind faith. Oblivious to the blatant holes that bother most people, they deny, deny and deny some more; confident in the absolute impossibility of the existence of a single dent in the perfect object of their devotion. Reason does not work against these people. We're weaponless in the face of their fanaticism. Note that I am not saying everyone that likes Steam (or Apple) is like this. Most aren't. It is simply the result of same effect we observe in the christian right and other groups: a vocal and fanatic minority gives a bad name to everyone else.

Most people? Got any statistics for the hate to love ratio for steam do we?

Steam works great for me and the people I play online with. There is no conspiracy of devotion involved, just appreciation for making my life that little bit easier.

You talk as if Valve killed your mother. Bitter much?

Ashpolt
24th Jul 2010, 17:28
I don't like massive internet installations, after I bought a dvd.

If you've bought the DVD, it will install from the DVD. I will admit to having had a couple of issues a few years ago with multi-disc games, where it installed from the first disc and then looked to the internet for the rest of the data, but that's been fixed now as far as I'm aware. Single-disc games have never had this issue.


Preparing to launch can take several hours if there's a patch. You have no choice about it. You have to wait. If there isn't a patch it can still take ten minutes, which doesnt sound like much, but is is.

This is absolute nonsense. The "preparing to launch" screen takes, at most, about 10 seconds, and is simply Steam's alternative to the splash screens games have used for years anyway. Obviously it's different if there's a patch, but a) that's expected, it's a patch, b) the Steam client can download patches in the background while you're not playing, and c) regardless of the above, "several hours" is a ridiculous exaggeration anyway, unless you have a ridiculously slow internet connection.


Adverts do pop up, every time you quit the game. Adverts for other games on steam. You know this is trus. So does everytone else who has used steam. So why deny it?

This is also nonsense. Someone else on here has mentioned you can disable this, but I haven't even had to do that. I seem to remember - vaguely - this happening when Steam first launched (and I fully suspect you're basing all your criticisms on that time, and haven't tried it in the last few years) but it certainly doesn't happen now. You get adverts when you launch the Steam client itself (as you posted above) but you don't have to do that to launch games. Simply double click the desktop icon for whatever game you want to play and it'll connect to Steam without launching the client, and hence without bringing up any ads. Also, contrary to your previous post, they don't pop up "all over your PC" - they pop up only when you launch the Steam client.

If you're going to criticise something, at least get your facts straight.

MechBFP
24th Jul 2010, 17:46
It's always fun watching some total retard criticize something that they blatantly know nothing about. Children are so stupid.

puzl
24th Jul 2010, 18:18
Reminds me of this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCEQZ_4V7NY&feature=related) actually.

St. Mellow
24th Jul 2010, 18:35
Most people? Got any statistics for the hate to love ratio for steam do we?

Steam works great for me and the people I play online with. There is no conspiracy of devotion involved, just appreciation for making my life that little bit easier.

You talk as if Valve killed your mother. Bitter much?

First learn to read all the post and then criticize the main argument, not just some minor detail; or instead escape altogether and insult the writer. You and MechBFP embody the blind fanaticism I was talking about. Ikenstein has brought up many points that I don't agree with and I admit his criticisms are shallow, but it's nowhere near the blatant imbecility you demonstrate. Like myself, but for different reasons, he dislikes the platform and is completely entitled to that right. The problem with you is that instead of defending you are actively attacking and trying to justify forcing Steam upon everyone, since it's a flawless system in your mind and you can't see why anyone would disagree. I'm taking sides, like usual, with choice and freedom. Like with anything else, there are issues and these should be discussed openly so solutions can be sought. There is always more potential, always new places to go, always problems to solve. If it works for you, great. Remember you're not the only user that needs to be satisfied. The attitude Steam fans have taken in this thread is precisely that: "It works great for me. If it doesn't work for you, you're stupid." Or even: "It works great for me. It's working great for you too, you just don't know it. You're stupid." Even Ashpolt, one of the firmest voices of reason in these forums, degrades to this level when discussing Steam.

Fluffis
24th Jul 2010, 18:36
Reminds me of this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCEQZ_4V7NY&feature=related) actually.

I can't really find words... Damn. That guy is... so way off. I'm seriously at a loss for words here. :D

Ashpolt
24th Jul 2010, 18:59
;1457113']Even Ashpolt, one of the firmest voices of reason in these forums, degrades to this level when discussing Steam.

I appreciate that you consider me "one of the firmest voices of reason in these forums", but please tell me what I've said about Steam that's unreasonable? I've conceded that it's not ideal if you've got a bad internet connection, but with the caveat that that's a fault of the bad internet connection, not of Steam: I understand the frustrations of people who dislike boxed copies using Steam, even if I don't share them, but am waiting for a proper justification of why Steam is in itself bad before accepting this as a particularly valid criticism of the system as a whole. What of that is not reasonable? I'm happy to take this to PM if you would prefer. :)

Anasumtj
24th Jul 2010, 19:39
And here's the first thing I got when I logged into steam just now, to remind myself how rubbish it is.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5712/steam2l.jpg

I won't get into the rest of your post. Granted, you take issues with some things that I've never had problems with, and it would be pointless to argue the whole.

But this particular point of yours is a flat-out falsehood. First of all, it's not like the ads you're describing are freakin' third-party pop-ups or anything like that which infest your PC. They are all dependent on your Steam client being booted up. Secondly, you can disable those notifications in your Steam settings.

I don't see anybody arguing why Steam needs to be forced on anybody. That's a straw man. I do see some people leveling quite a few outdated or otherwise invalid arguments against the service, to which they are being appropriately challenged. But overall, quite a lot of people like Steam and it's requirements are fine to its millions of users. You may have some very legitimate complaints with Steam, and it's unfortunate for you if a dev or publisher wants to package their title with it. When considering other DRM/Distribution options however, I vastly prefer it to the competition, especially considering the additional value and convenience I'm getting in return for it.

It's not for everybody, but I think you'll have a tough time selling the "Steam is horrible" argument.

pringlepower
24th Jul 2010, 19:41
And here's the first thing I got when I logged into steam just now, to remind myself how rubbish it is.

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5712/steam2l.jpg

So ads are... bad?

If so, you might as well just **** the modern world.

Kodaemon
24th Jul 2010, 19:54
My biggest beef with Steam is the patching system.

I could swallow the timeouts and all that is related to my slow connection if Steam would let me update games when I want to. Again: in Steam you HAVE to fully patch a game once you install it, otherwise you can't play. By the way, what about games like Fallout 3 where the subsequent patches break more than they fix? (THANK GOD F3 doesn't come with mandatory Steam).

Or, at the very least let me download standalone patches. Steam-using games CANNOT be patched outside Steam, thus I can't even go to a cafe, get that 1 gig patch I don't really need and install it at home, I have to drudge through downloading it here, at max 20k per second if I'm lucky or max 4k if i'm not.

Fluffis
24th Jul 2010, 19:57
By the way, what about games like Fallout 3 where the subsequent patches break more than they fix?


That's not really something you can blame Steam for...

K^2
24th Jul 2010, 19:58
You CAN patch the game elsewhere. Copy the game to portable drive, take it to the caffe, copy your files to the correct folder on local machine, wait for Steam to do all the checking and patching, copy files back, bring them home, copy them to your local folder.

If the game is already present in the directory where Steam expects it to, it only checks the files, makes sure they are up to date, and then lets you play. I haven't had to re-install any of my Steam games after knocking down the OS and installing Windows 7, for example.

puzl
24th Jul 2010, 19:59
;1457113']First learn to read all the post and then criticize the main argument, not just some minor detail; or instead escape altogether and insult the writer. You and MechBFP embody the blind fanaticism I was talking about. Ikenstein has brought up many points that I don't agree with and I admit his criticisms are shallow, but it's nowhere near the blatant imbecility you demonstrate. Like myself, but for different reasons, he dislikes the platform and is completely entitled to that right. The problem with you is that instead of defending you are actively attacking and trying to justify forcing Steam upon everyone, since it's a flawless system in your mind and you can't see why anyone would disagree. I'm taking sides, like usual, with choice and freedom. Like with anything else, there are issues and these should be discussed openly so solutions can be sought. There is always more potential, always new places to go, always problems to solve. If it works for you, great. Remember you're not the only user that needs to be satisfied. The attitude Steam fans have taken in this thread is precisely that: "It works great for me. If it doesn't work for you, you're stupid." Or even: "It works great for me. It's working great for you too, you just don't know it. You're stupid." Even Ashpolt, one of the firmest voices of reason in these forums, degrades to this level when discussing Steam.

And I suggest you read my post above the one you quoted, whereby I go in detail about why the "flaws" in steam aren't actually flaws at all. It was aimed at another guy, but you both share the same mentalities, hence why I didn't bother to regurgitate the same thing twice.

I'm not attacking anyone. I'm just countering arguments made against steam that are either fictitious or misguided. You just seem REALLY bitter about the subject for some reason and it's quite amusing to see how genuinely upset the whole issue has made you.

Kodaemon
24th Jul 2010, 22:45
You CAN patch the game elsewhere. Copy the game to portable drive, take it to the caffe, copy your files to the correct folder on local machine, wait for Steam to do all the checking and patching, copy files back, bring them home, copy them to your local folder.

If the game is already present in the directory where Steam expects it to, it only checks the files, makes sure they are up to date, and then lets you play. I haven't had to re-install any of my Steam games after knocking down the OS and installing Windows 7, for example.

I would be very grateful if you could give a more detailed description of the procedure. Do I copy the entire Steam folder? Or just the game's files? If it's the latter, which files are actually relevant? Only those in \SteamApps\[user name]]\ or something more? Will it really work when copied to/from another machine? I mean, even here it gets confused every now and then and starts downloading everything from the start...

'm just really, really cautious here, I'd like to try it, but I'm afraid it doesn't really work and I'll have to install/update everything AGAIN :hmm:

DeusWhatever
24th Jul 2010, 23:13
Sry but most of the anti-steam statements here are either false or kind of stupid ...

Steam is great, it keeps your games up to date (btw you dont have to update them you can disable the updatesystem for a game with a simple rightclick, and honestly if you play a mp game you have to get patches to play either way even if you dont have steam), you can play on any pc with your account (i usually have a backup of my steam-folder so i dont have to redownload). It works pretty good.

Dont get me wrong steam has problems:
- bad if you have a slow internet-connection
- you dont get hard copys just some sort of licence which is a pretty big problem
- your games are in an account, loose the account loose the games
- offline steam only works for a limited ammount of time
- steam games are overpriced so you have to wait for special-deals ...

Most of the things stated here either dont exist, or just need the user to check the options ...
I dont want to make steam look like the best invetion ever, but if you want to criticize somehting, please try to inform yourselfes first. And yes i would also be glad if steam was only optional and not forced, but i have to admit, it seems like this kind of stuff is "trendy" now and every little company wants to do this on their own cause its a "cashcow", still thats why i like steam, if steam stays on top, at least that ensures that companys like MS will fail with their Gfwl-crap.

Or in simple terms, i choose the lesser evil ^^

Tecman
24th Jul 2010, 23:51
I would be very grateful if you could give a more detailed description of the procedure. Do I copy the entire Steam folder? Or just the game's files? If it's the latter, which files are actually relevant? Only those in \SteamApps\[user name]]\ or something more? Will it really work when copied to/from another machine? I mean, even here it gets confused every now and then and starts downloading everything from the start...

'm just really, really cautious here, I'd like to try it, but I'm afraid it doesn't really work and I'll have to install/update everything AGAIN :hmm:

The relevant folders are all under \steamapps\. But if you want some more info, the way Steam stores downloaded games is as follows:

\steamapps\<username> - This is where Valve games, Steam-distributed Source-engine mods and some of the earlier releases get stored PARTIALLY (examples: HL2, Portal, Sin1 & Episodes, Synergy, Darwinia, CSS, etc...). Why partially? These games also need a large .gcf file inside \steamapps\ since some share resources (Source games, for example, share stuff like source engine.gcf, source 2007 shared materials.gcf etc etc...).

\steamapps\common - This is where all the latter releases get stored. For example, Alien Swarm, Mass Effect 1&2, Battlefield games, Bioshock, etc etc etc... These games also have very small (under 5 megs) corresponding .ncf files inside \steamapps\

Then there's \steamapps\media and \steamapps\sourcemods, which I'm guessing you won't need. :)

If you have portable storage (or a harddrive you could detatch) and a friend who has a decent internet connection who is patient enough, just take the drive that has Steam on it and run Steam from there - this would probably work best if he doesn't have Steam installed yet himself, as I've never tried doing it with two Steam "installations", a live one and a "moved" one... I just rebuild off my Steam harddrive when I format. In my case, I never "re-install" Steam, I just run it off the drive and it essentially re-builds itself by downloading what it needs and setting all the relevant registry keys and whatnot.

I'm not quite sure how this would work in an internet cafe or whatever, since they may have Steam ports closed, or protection from installing unwanted applications, which this re-build essentially does.

When you run Steam off of your drive from wherever you have it installed, it should auto-update whatever files the Steam-client itself needs at first, then when you actually log into it properly also update whatever game updates it can find.

If you want to be thorough, verify all the games' caches (rightclick in Library/Games, select Properties, go to the Local Files tab, use Verify Integrity of Game Cache) so Steam re-checks the entire game for any updates or missing files it may have missed while doing regular updates. Mass Effect 1 is notorious for "forgetting" files sometimes.

Truth be told, this doesn't protect you from the occasional "Whoops, Steam forgot I have downloaded this game already, time to redownload it :nut: " curse.

If you need any more info, just friend me on Steam (http://steamcommunity.com/id/tecman). I may be a huge fanboy, but I also had my share of problems so if I can help, no problem. :thumb:

ikenstein
25th Jul 2010, 09:14
You like steam? Great. Go buy your games online, put up with the ads, the updates, the software on your pc, someone else controlling your software, etc.

But no, you feel the need to force your utter garbage, badly thought out corporate crap on everyone else. It's not a case of I like it so I buy it that way. And your justifications for trying to force this garbage down my throat are rediculous.

I'll tell you again why I dont like steam.

Steam has pop up ads. Steam installs crap software on your PC. Steam makes starting your software take forever. Steam requires registration. Steam stops you reselling your old games. Steam is intrusive, unwanted crap that is hidden away on packageing so that I buy the dvd by accident, in thge vain hope that I'll accept being ripped off and not return the thing.

Just today I got a dvd called 'Red Orchestra' that does not install from the dvd. No, it needs steam. So it goes back to the store. Simple. And so far I don't hear any arguments that convince me to spend my money on games that come with this garbage bolted on to them.

For a third time, I'll ask you steam fanboys. Why do you like steam so much you come on forums all angry and start demanding that crap is forced onto me? Answer please. None of these 'but...but...but...adverts are ok really and you should like steam taking control of your games and stuff....i do, i love bending over for big corporations' whiney,slack jawed excuses.

super...
25th Jul 2010, 09:30
i dont think it should be forced on you. but steam is great anyway. i have lost more games on disk then i have with steam.

adverts, i had mine turned off, but i guess the major steam update flipped that switch again, looks like i will have to flip it again. annoying but not as annoying as losing my star craft disk for the 6th time.

you have legitimate gripes that probably don't apply to many people here, being an angry tit about it is only going to disturb the trolls.

Fluffis
25th Jul 2010, 10:09
Steam has pop up ads.


It's a simple matter of unchecking a box to remove those.



Steam installs crap software on your PC.


You mean the software library/browser thing? That's one of the reasons why a lot of people like Steam. It gathers your games in an easy-to-use list. Me, I could go either way with it. I usually have the games as icons on the desktop anyway, and just use the client as a download manager.



Steam makes starting your software take forever.


Only when updating.



Steam requires registration. Steam stops you reselling your old games.


These are quite correct. The first one, I personally have no problem with. The second one has simply made me think harder about which games I buy, but I agree; that one is bad.



Steam is intrusive, unwanted crap that is hidden away on packageing so that I buy the dvd by accident, in thge vain hope that I'll accept being ripped off and not return the thing.


Just look at the box. There is always a "Steam" logo on games that require it. And sites that sell the game usually put "Requires Steam" somewhere in the tech specs. At least any half-decent ones.



Just today I got a dvd called 'Red Orchestra' that does not install from the dvd. No, it needs steam. So it goes back to the store.


It installed from the DVD for me. It updated through Steam, but the installation was from the DVD.

As for us not owning the games: Valve have said that if anything should happen, that would necessitate the permanent shut-down of Steam, they have the technology to remotely remove all need for authentication. It works, and they will use it.

puzl
25th Jul 2010, 10:57
Pointless arguing with ikenstein. He is obviously one of those guys who are set in their ways and won't adapt to change in any way. It's funny how he has posted the same bs reasons for not accepting steam twice now and each time every single one of his points has been rebuted.

BTW, 99% of retail boxed games that require steam are installed from the DVD. The authentication part usually comes from a serial that ties the game to your steam account. You can also backup all this content to another DVD directly from steam if you like.

I do wish people would do a little research into something before taking the time to automatically damn it. I hated steam when it was first released, but the software improved dramatically and it is now my prefered way to buy games. Steam/Valve just released Alien Swarm for FREE - and it's brilliant. Much better than most full priced games actually. Steam isn't the enemy people - bad games are.

puzl
25th Jul 2010, 10:59
For a third time, I'll ask you steam fanboys. Why do you like steam so much you come on forums all angry and start demanding that crap is forced onto me? Answer please. None of these 'but...but...but...adverts are ok really and you should like steam taking control of your games and stuff....i do, i love bending over for big corporations' whiney,slack jawed excuses.

Oh and noone from the forum is forcing steam on you. DX:HR uses it though, so as I said earlier, if you intend to play the game (bearing in mind you're taking the time to post in a forum dedicated to this very game) then you'll have no choice but to use it. Or pirate it, which I suspect is what you'll probably do anyway.

Ashpolt
25th Jul 2010, 11:34
Steam has pop up ads. Steam installs crap software on your PC. Steam makes starting your software take forever. Steam requires registration. Steam stops you reselling your old games. Steam is intrusive, unwanted crap that is hidden away on packageing so that I buy the dvd by accident, in thge vain hope that I'll accept being ripped off and not return the thing.

You know repeating (mostly) false points doesn't somehow magically make them true, right?

Pooeypants
25th Jul 2010, 12:01
Steam is the best solution for DRM. It's the lesser of all evils currently and I have learnt to embrace it. As long as the game doesn't require GFWL to be used as well then I'm all down for Steam integration. If there were an MP then I could see far more benefits with steam added.

Irate_Iguana
25th Jul 2010, 13:13
You know repeating (mostly) false points doesn't somehow magically make them true, right?

Actually, he said some things that are dependent on his internet connection and computer configuration. Some of you immediately screamed false while it may be that for his comp it is perfectly true. Like the guy who couldn't fathom that Kodaemon has a slow internet connection.

DeusWhatever
25th Jul 2010, 14:01
You like steam? Great. Go buy your games online, put up with the ads, the updates, the software on your pc, someone else controlling your software, etc.


Or just disable updates and ads, but hey its not like people had to update multiplayergames without steam ...
If the reasons why you dislike something are things you can change, what does that make you?
Your just like the Mac-Guy in the video, dont blame your own inability on steam ...

Like i said, their are tons of reasons to dislike steam, but disliking steam for reasons that dont exist is stupid ...
Also if a game requires steam its printed on the box, so if you really dont even want to buy a steamgame may you read the box ...
Your only legit point was the reselling.

Im not a big steam-fanboy but people like you just annoy me.

MechBFP
25th Jul 2010, 14:59
Like I said, children are so stupid.

Kodaemon
25th Jul 2010, 15:12
Cheers Tecman, I'll be checking this stuff out in the week :):thumb:

Ashpolt
25th Jul 2010, 15:13
Actually, he said some things that are dependent on his internet connection and computer configuration. Some of you immediately screamed false while it may be that for his comp it is perfectly true. Like the guy who couldn't fathom that Kodaemon has a slow internet connection.

This may be the case, but like I said before, that's not a problem with Steam per se, it's a problem with his internet connection. Steam is an internet-based service: a reasonable internet connection is, no matter how they manage it, going to be a base requirement.

A comparison: My computer runs Half Life 2 fine with everything maxed out. My dad's computer, which is from 2000, struggles to run it at low settings. Does that mean Half Life 2 is a poorly optimised game? No!

Same with Steam. I've run it on a 2Mb connection which is really not that fast by today's standards with no problems. I totally appreciate that in some countries the infrastructure may not be there for this kind of internet connection to be widely available, and for people in that situation, I sympathise: but it is not a fault with Steam. I also understand the grievance over boxed copies forcing Steam: that's only a problem, though, if you have a problem with Steam itself, and if your problems are based on a slow internet connection....see where I'm going with this?

The only really valid concern I see is the auto-patching thing, and even then it's only a valid concern when discussing single-player only games: in multiplayer games it's near enough a necessity, and makes things a lot easier. Like I say, this I can agree with to a degree, but that wasn't even one of ikenstein's points.

puzl
25th Jul 2010, 16:44
The only really valid concern I see is the auto-patching thing, and even then it's only a valid concern when discussing single-player only games: in multiplayer games it's near enough a necessity, and makes things a lot easier. Like I say, this I can agree with to a degree, but that wasn't even one of ikenstein's points.


And again, this isn't even an issue if the guy knew how to use steam.

http://imgur.com/fncs2.jpg

Tecman
25th Jul 2010, 17:35
And again, this isn't even an issue if the guy knew how to use steam.


We've touched upon this already in this thread. That feature is all fine and dandy until you try running the game while in Online mode - it WILL try to update the game, no matter what setting it's at. "Do not automatically" doesn't actually mean "never" like people sometimes claim, it only means it won't do it in the background, plus if you forget and it downloads even one kilobyte of an update, you'll pretty much HAVE to update the game before you can play it again, unless you keep another Steam download folder as backup. You need to be in Offline mode to avoid the patching issue.

Fluffis
25th Jul 2010, 17:38
We've touched upon this already in this thread. That feature is all fine and dandy until you try running the game while in Online mode - it WILL try to update the game, no matter what setting it's at. "Do not automatically" doesn't actually mean "never" like people sometimes claim, it only means it won't do it in the background, plus if you forget and it downloads even one kilobyte of an update, you'll pretty much HAVE to update the game before you can play it again, unless you keep another Steam download folder as backup. You need to be in Offline mode to avoid the patching issue.

^^^ This. It wouldn't surprise me if it is some form of condition from the game companies.

Or a way to simplify the update process.

Kodaemon
25th Jul 2010, 17:43
And again, this isn't even an issue if the guy knew how to use steam.

Again: THERE IS NO WAY TO RUN A FRESHLY INSTALLED GAME WITHOUT FULLY UPDATING IT. Try it, por favor.


You need to be in Offline mode to avoid the patching issue.

And you need to go online when installing a new game, thus the circle closes.

Fluffis
25th Jul 2010, 17:45
And you need to go online when installing a new game, thus the circle closes.

But the update process doesn't start until you actually start the game. Just go offline right after installing, and everything should be fine.

Edit: I haven't actually tried, since I've never had a problem with it, but I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work.

Kodaemon
25th Jul 2010, 17:48
Nope, you can't run the game for the first time in offline mode. Also, consider that going online to install the new game means you have to get the updates for the previously installed ones.

Tecman
25th Jul 2010, 17:54
But the update process doesn't start until you actually start the game. Just go offline right after installing, and everything should be fine.

Edit: I haven't actually tried, since I've never had a problem with it, but I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work.

Like Kodaemon already said, you need to run each game at least ONCE in Online mode for it to work, so it flags it as "legit" and assigns it something like a cookie saying "Okay, this game has been verified in online mode, it's not just downloaded content off a tracker or something".



Nope, you can't run the game for the first time in offline mode. Also, consider that going online to install the new game means you have to get the updates for the previously installed ones.

This is where the "Don't Automatically Update" option comes in handy. Flag all of your games like that, and it shouldn't try to update the rest. Some of my Aussie Steam friends use this to avoid going over their bandwidth limits. :)

Fluffis
25th Jul 2010, 17:57
Like Kodaemon already said, you need to run each game at least ONCE in Online mode for it to work, so it flags it as "legit" and assigns it something like a cookie saying "Okay, this game has been verified in online mode, it's not just downloaded content off a tracker or something".

Yeah, I realized I'd written something that I actually know isn't true (a couple of gears in my head spun free there for a while), and was about to edit it but then I found he'd answered. :D

Kodaemon
25th Jul 2010, 18:19
This is where the "Don't Automatically Update" option comes in handy. Flag all of your games like that, and it shouldn't try to update the rest. Some of my Aussie Steam friends use this to avoid going over their bandwidth limits. :)

Except it doesn't always work :hmm:. For example, that big update for Steam itself some time ago (which there was naturally no option to block) reset all my autoupdate settings for the games.

Fluffis
25th Jul 2010, 18:35
Except it doesn't always work :hmm:. For example, that big update for Steam itself some time ago (which there was naturally no option to block) reset all my autoupdate settings for the games.

Yeah, something like that can really mess it up for you. It's something that shouldn't be too hard for Valve to fix though. Just some flags that it shouldn't touch settings that it doesn't update. If enough people comment about it, it'll probably get fixed.

I actually think that the "enforced" update to the client itself, as such, is a good thing. Then, if you have a problem, you never have to bother to find out what version you're using, for instance.
For someone with a shaky connection, however, I can imagine that it isn't as much fun... :hmm:

K^2
26th Jul 2010, 04:10
We still get back to, "There are still problems left to address." They are being addressed. Most of the problems that used to plague Steam aren't problems anymore. A few are still left over. Make sure you let Valve know. Post on their forums asking for more options for this and that. They tend to listen on that sort of thing.

St. Mellow
26th Jul 2010, 16:35
You just seem REALLY bitter about the subject for some reason and it's quite amusing to see how genuinely upset the whole issue has made you.

Mirror mirror. The exact same thing can be said about you. (And some others here as well.)


I appreciate that you consider me "one of the firmest voices of reason in these forums", but please tell me what I've said about Steam that's unreasonable? I've conceded that it's not ideal if you've got a bad internet connection, but with the caveat that that's a fault of the bad internet connection, not of Steam: I understand the frustrations of people who dislike boxed copies using Steam, even if I don't share them, but am waiting for a proper justification of why Steam is in itself bad before accepting this as a particularly valid criticism of the system as a whole. What of that is not reasonable? I'm happy to take this to PM if you would prefer. :)


Just look at the box. There is always a "Steam" logo on games that require it. And sites that sell the game usually put "Requires Steam" somewhere in the tech specs. At least any half-decent ones.

No need to take it to PM. I like keeping things in the open, if you don't mind. :) So, first off: I'm sorry if it seemed that I likened your defense of Steam to the ignorance and aggression of puzl's fanboyism. I was merely pointing out the condescension and inflexibility that you do occasionally demonstrate on the issue. The thing is, I am not arguing that Steam itself is bad. It's a pretty nice idea overall, but I do demand both the possibility of opting out of it and not missing out on content I desire. Of course, the lack of such an option is completely understandable in the case of digital copies, but it is absolutely unacceptable for boxed copies to force Steam down my throat. When I buy a boxed game, I want the option of NO STEAM whatsoever. Is this not reasonable? More and more boxed games are like this, with either Steam or GFWL being compulsory. What makes this even worse for me is that I have a younger brother. He has his own Steam account. If either one of us buys a boxed game with Steam, we either have to buy two or buy a second digital copy. :mad2: Finally:


'] [...] I still have some big issues with Steam. Mainly, the blatant violation of the first-sale doctrine. :mad2:

No point in discussing the smaller issues, as they have pretty much been thoroughly exposed and discussed in this thread. Personally, I'd be satisfied with compulsory Steam for boxed copies ended. All that said, I'm pretty much done discussing this topic here. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

DeusWhatever
26th Jul 2010, 17:50
So i guess we can agree then that steam is actually pretty nice but its not ok to force ppl to use it and it still hase some flaws and general problems. Yet i have to say im happy that valve has done it, otherwise im pretty shure MS would have done it with their really crappy software like Gfwl.

Since i have steam i have a lot of games on my computer, all up to date, normally i would have just a few on my pc. And i really like the update feature, cause there are some games with a crappy update-management, like supreme commander ;)

I also have to admit, i dont miss the boxes, i liked the art, but gaming is not a hobby i want to "throw ppl in the face" when they visit me, especially women ;) (btw the new dvd-cases, with non existing manuals are crappy either way ...)

puzl
28th Jul 2010, 13:38
Dunno how any of my posts could be regarded as steam "fanboyism" (i'm just explaining the benefits of the system, whereas people like ikenstein are throwing lots of false negatives which they are claiming as fact) but you're entitled to your opinion I spose, even if it is wrong. I don't care for steam in any way other than a means for purchasing and organising games I purchase. As a tool, it is handy to use. I certainly don't send love letters to Gabe Newell or anything.

Please explain exactly where i'm being ignorant (and what exactly i'm being ignorant to). You're the only one throwing insults around in here, afterall.

As I say, it's gonna be interesting to see if you actually buy DX:HR for steam in a few months when it is released. We'll see how "unacceptable" steam really is for you afterall, lol.

caitsith01
4th Aug 2010, 12:34
I just have to jump into this thread to comment on the ridiculously aggressive attitude of pro-Steam people to any criticism.

There are some very legitimate reasons that someone might dislike Steam. Mostly they are philosophical - I don't want to be forced to have a relationship with a third party (Valve) to play a game. I don't want to be forced to have closed source, internet-connected piece of software on my machine to run a single player game. I want to be able to sell or gift my games. I don't want to be reliant upon the continued existence or goodwill of Valve to play my games. I don't want to be forced to patch.

You may disagree with all of that because you think Steam's great. But the point is - why FORCE people to use it? I have no problem with you using it, but I want publishers to respect my strong preference not to use it.

Anyway. Attacking and belittling people who have a different opinion to yours is childish and pathetic, doubly so when your own views reflect very superficial thinking at best.

MechBFP
4th Aug 2010, 13:11
I just have to jump into this thread to comment on the ridiculously aggressive attitude of pro-Steam people to any criticism.

There are some very legitimate reasons that someone might dislike Steam. Mostly they are philosophical - I don't want to be forced to have a relationship with a third party (Valve) to play a game. I don't want to be forced to have closed source, internet-connected piece of software on my machine to run a single player game. I want to be able to sell or gift my games. I don't want to be reliant upon the continued existence or goodwill of Valve to play my games. I don't want to be forced to patch.

You may disagree with all of that because you think Steam's great. But the point is - why FORCE people to use it? I have no problem with you using it, but I want publishers to respect my strong preference not to use it.

Anyway. Attacking and belittling people who have a different opinion to yours is childish and pathetic, doubly so when your own views reflect very superficial thinking at best.

Maybe you should actually read the thread champ.

Xenoc
6th Aug 2010, 09:53
dont mind steam so not concerned

Kodaemon
6th Aug 2010, 10:10
Thank you for your meaningful input.