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Shralla
14th Jul 2010, 01:47
Fallout from one of the older Deus Ex forums, dxediting.com, got moved to the home of The Nameless Mod, and now the general DX section there encompasses both TNM exclusives, and crossovers from dxediting. Some of the most hardcore DX fanboys you will ever meet, and boy do they have a bone to pick with this game.

http://offtopicproductions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10425


I really didn't mind the art direction (once I got over the fact that it is not actually a Deus Ex game)

I mean really. Could anybody BE more pedantic and pretentious? There's even a guy there who is not only pissed off about Human Revolution, but is also super pissed about the new XCom game, and is STILL pissed about Fallout 3. Talk about nostalgia goggles.

Pretentious Old Man.
14th Jul 2010, 02:01
The new XCOM game is an aberration however you look at it. Whether Fallout 3 is a good game or not is up for debate (I believe that it kind of is), but that it isn't a proper Fallout game is more or less a cert.

Sorry mate, he's not being irrational as far as I can see. I didn't read the article, just what you quoted, but nouveau-renaissance is definitely nothing to do with the grotty style of the original. I think this is an acceptable change, but not everyone does, and those people don't deserve to have their opinion dismissed as "irrational".

Afro
14th Jul 2010, 02:07
The new XCOM game is an aberration however you look at it. Whether Fallout 3 is a good game or not is up for debate (I believe that it kind of is), but that it isn't a proper Fallout game is more or less a cert.

Sorry mate, he's not being irrational as far as I can see. I didn't read the article, just what you quoted, but nouveau-renaissance is definitely nothing to do with the grotty style of the original. I think this is an acceptable change, but not everyone does, and those people don't deserve to have their opinion dismissed as "irrational".

I kind of agree with you Old Man. FO3 to me was an amazing game. Buuuuuut then I went and played the originals. Yea it is a FO game but its sooo different. DE HR isnt even out yet so I dont think anyone can ***** (yet) until it is out.

Shralla
14th Jul 2010, 02:13
No, they really do. "Change=bad" is the mentality at work here. None of these people have played this game, and neither you nor anybody else has played the new XCom game, of which there is a SINGLE preview video, accompanied by write-ups that just summarize what was in the video. You have NO IDEA AT ALL of what the developers are planning for the game, and to even act like you do is, as I said, irrational. Just because it doesn't look like ass and doesn't have archaic gameplay doesn't mean that it's going to completely "destroy" the original concept. Honestly, from what I've read on the old XCom games in comparison to the new one, it sure as hell sounds like XCom to me. Encountering unknown lifeforms, gathering intelligence and information, developing new technologies to help combat the threats. The only complaint I've seen that has any sort of credence at all is "BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW NO BASE-BUILDING," only it doesn't actually have an legitimacy because YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT.

Oh yeah, and VATS literally turned Fallout 3 into Fallout 2 in 3D. Same combat system. Same stat system. Same perk system. Remind me again exactly how it "isn't a proper Fallout game."

The only reason anybody has a problem with the art direction of this game is the fact that the original Deus Ex had literally NO art direction at ALL. God forbid should they actually give some sort of character to the world.

I have yet to hear a single argument argument against any of these games that in any way suggests that the people making them put any sort of thought into them whatsoever. Every single last bit of complaint sounds as though it's a knee-jerk reaction to something being different than it used to be, which is hilarious since all these games are old as **** and are in desperate need of updates to make them less clunky.

jtr7
14th Jul 2010, 02:19
People can have valid negative opinions at this point from simply knowing the game contains elements they know they aren't compatible with. It's that simple. Aspects of games they don't like no matter what for whatever reason, often unarguably valid (as well as exotic and baffling reasons, too), guarantee incompatibility with the players. Having aspects added that were not included in the original, that the absence of made the game enjoyable and the player grateful for a game that didn't have those aspects, is, at minimum, a valid disappointment, and depending on the reasons, valid or incomprehensible to others, can become a deal-breaker. If it can't be ignored, and it's a known fact at this time that it is in the game, then opinions about it now include valid concerns now and forever. Opinions about the past that don't change as time goes by to something else has nothing to do with nostalgia or sentimentality or living in the past, but acknowledging history, knowing what worked and what didn't for the individual, and known community.


But yeah, positive and negative opinions have a full spectrum from one appalling extreme to the other. It's the Internet. Don't give the extremists too much coverage or leverage--on both ends.

Shralla
14th Jul 2010, 02:52
Really there's just nothing I hate more than people who are opposed to change just because they'd rather have the same thing over and over again. I'm the same way with my music. Lots of people would rather Infected Mushroom have stayed with straight-up "uhn tiss" trance music, but if they hadn't said "**** that, let's change it up," we never would have ended up with songs like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocEXPGilmbs

Evolution is necessary in all mediums, especially in a medium as NEW as video games. Deus Ex was made at a time when the industry was really just starting to discover itself and its potential, and while it reflected a lot of the awesome potential of games from that point on, it also reflected some of the not so hot things of games before it, and the same is DOUBLY true of both Fallout and XCom. Those games play the way they do because they didn't have the technology to properly execute it any other way, just like Deus Ex.

Romeo
14th Jul 2010, 03:04
Really there's just nothing I hate more than people who are opposed to change just because they'd rather have the same thing over and over again. I'm the same way with my music. Lots of people would rather Infected Mushroom have stayed with straight-up "uhn tiss" trance music, but if they hadn't said "**** that, let's change it up," we never would have ended up with songs like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocEXPGilmbs

Evolution is necessary in all mediums, especially in a medium as NEW as video games. Deus Ex was made at a time when the industry was really just starting to discover itself and its potential, and while it reflected a lot of the awesome potential of games from that point on, it also reflected some of the not so hot things of games before it, and the same is DOUBLY true of both Fallout and XCom. Those games play the way they do because they didn't have the technology to properly execute it any other way, just like Deus Ex.
But as something I see in my beloved automotive industry, I strongly oppose change when it doesn't improve anything. Health regeneration was a change - but not one that should have been applied to Deus Ex. And besides, you speak of being different, then why not focus on some individualism apart from modern games? Rather than emulate games like Halo, Modern Warfare and R6:Vegas, why not try to do something unique?

You see, the reason your argument is invalid, is because you fail to see the way the vast majority of people here view the changes: That a old, broken system is still superior to a modern, worse replacement.

FrankCSIS
14th Jul 2010, 03:06
I'm having a double deja vu experience in this thread.

Srew that, make it a triple, barkeep. I'll live up to the headache.

Kodaemon
14th Jul 2010, 04:43
Oh goody, another crazy rant thread against criticism.

Romeo
14th Jul 2010, 07:18
Oh goody, another crazy rant thread against criticism.
Are you criticizing his criticism of criticism? How dare you! :lol:

Mindmute
14th Jul 2010, 11:12
Oh yeah, and VATS literally turned Fallout 3 into Fallout 2 in 3D. Same combat system. Same stat system. Same perk system. Remind me again exactly how it "isn't a proper Fallout game."


Lack of world depth, easy to max-out any and all skills making the game's difficulty superfluous, lack of character depth or even heavilly memorable characters or places (most of them felt useless to the world, so that the elimination of an entire settlement would appear to have no impact whatsoever on the scope of the wasteland, being mere quest-givers with little or no depth), the story was frankly mediocre, the guns were even more unbalanced to the point where more powerful nearly always meant better. Lack of diversity in enemies, significant number of smaller and less intricate/in-depth settlements, companions were blank slates with little to no personality other than a karma test required to join with you, etc.



The only reason anybody has a problem with the art direction of this game is the fact that the original Deus Ex had literally NO art direction at ALL. God forbid should they actually give some sort of character to the world.


It was a gritty industrial-based art style. It meshed in to the constant night-gameplay, I don't mind DX:HR's style, but to say there was none on DX is a bit too much.




I have yet to hear a single argument argument against any of these games that in any way suggests that the people making them put any sort of thought into them whatsoever.

Strange, I'd say the same about all the people complaining about the "complainers" (not directed at you, just a vent about a few others).

Ashpolt
14th Jul 2010, 11:31
Shralla, your view that changing with the times is necessarily a good thing is as ignorant as the straw man that you're attacking - and it is a straw man, because people aren't just complaining about change, they're complaining specifically about what they feel to be bad change. Additionally, the way you put across your point is incredibly arrogant.

I could write a long post here about good change vs bad change, respecting a legacy, gameplay being more than its core components etc, but I've said it all before. You're just going to have to face up to it: a lot of people don't like the direction DXHR is taking. You do, fine. But their views are not invalid - what you think their views are might have a shaky claim on validity, but there's a difference between what you think they're saying and what they're actually saying. Either that or you're intentionally twisting their words in a vain attempt to make your own point sound more logical, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not the case.

ikenstein
14th Jul 2010, 11:31
The more I hear about HR the worse it sounds. Invisisble war's inventory system. A 3rd person cover system. Regen health. Even the sad, tired, worn out, boring bullet time ffs! I mean, how much lame can you pack into a game?

The people who worked on this have just stuck random garbage from second rate shooter together. Havn't they played deus ex before? I guess the dudes who made invisible war had the same attitude when they added universal ammo and those stupid augs you could find all over the place.

Also, I can't understand why people try to insist on turn gameplay for xcom. Sure, UFO enemy unknown and terror from the deep were awesome. But the real time combat in apocolypse was way better. Real time ftw

Corpus
14th Jul 2010, 12:03
The more I hear about HR the worse it sounds. Invisisble war's inventory system. A 3rd person cover system. Regen health. Even the sad, tired, worn out, boring bullet time ffs! I mean, how much lame can you pack into a game?

The people who worked on this have just stuck random garbage from second rate shooter together. Havn't they played deus ex before? I guess the dudes who made invisible war had the same attitude when they added universal ammo and those stupid augs you could find all over the place.

Also, I can't understand why people try to insist on turn gameplay for xcom. Sure, UFO enemy unknown and terror from the deep were awesome. But the real time combat in apocolypse was way better. Real time ftw

Inventory system is slot style like the original and where the hell is the bullet time? The only slow motion occurs for a second when he uses the claymore Aug. No universal ammo and this is in a time where bio augmentation is being pushed into mainstream but only available to people with a lot of money. Augs were so easy to find on IW because that was when everyone had easy access to nano augmentations.

Obviously they played the original because they realize the combat in the original was lacking and the choice/consequence game play is what really made it shine. This game could've been a lot worse and you're just hoping on the most obvious band wagon. Get your facts right before you criticize please. What kind of combat could they include without having it looking like something else? These days it's almost impossible to make a good game that sells without having similar mechanics to another of the same genre. People fear change.

ThePrecursor
14th Jul 2010, 12:09
Invisisble war's inventory system.

Learn to spell and get yourself informed as this is not the case. It is clear that they will feature an inventory system similar to Deus Ex's original system, which is quite risky on its own (but it's a good choice).

You appear to be a frustrated individual.

Mindmute
14th Jul 2010, 13:06
Learn to spell and get yourself informed as this is not the case. It is clear that they will feature an inventory system similar to Deus Ex's original system, which is quite risky on its own (but it's a good choice).

Why do you think that's risky?

Corpus
14th Jul 2010, 13:15
Why do you think that's risky?

Might not play out as well as it did in the original. Casuals are probably gonna hate it.

Kodaemon
14th Jul 2010, 13:24
I don't think anyone complained about it in games like Resident Evil 4.

PenguinsFriend
14th Jul 2010, 14:13
Learn to spell and get yourself informed as this is not the case. It is clear that they will feature an inventory system similar to Deus Ex's original system, which is quite risky on its own (but it's a good choice).

You appear to be a frustrated individual.

"learn to speall?" You have to be freaken kidding me. who the hell cares? It's the internet, only lamo nerds and douche bags worry about spelling. It's a game forum; not literature :mad2:

ThePrecursor
14th Jul 2010, 14:28
Might not play out as well as it did in the original. Casuals are probably gonna hate it.

Exactly.

Kodaemon
14th Jul 2010, 14:33
"learn to speall?" You have to be freaken kidding me. who the hell cares? It's the internet, only lamo nerds and douche bags worry about spelling. It's a game forum; not literature :mad2:

Call me a lamo nerd and a douchebag all you want, but I do like to see proper spelling. Doesn't matter if it's literature or an internet forum.

Mindmute
14th Jul 2010, 14:35
Might not play out as well as it did in the original. Casuals are probably gonna hate it.

"They see us organizin' a grid inventory, they hatin'..."

Ashpolt
14th Jul 2010, 14:43
Call me a lamo nerd and a douchebag all you want, but I do like to see proper spelling. Doesn't matter if it's literature or an internet forum.

Agreed. This also isn't a maths lesson, but if you try and tell me that 2 + 2 = watermelon, then I'm going to call you an idiot. Normally I feel that "this isnt an english lesson lol!!!1111" is the weak defence of someone who can't spell or punctuate correctly, but I know that PenguinsFriend is capable of doing so, so not sure where the ire is coming from...

JCpies
14th Jul 2010, 15:10
At first I thought it said 'Dxdating' I was wondering if I could get a girlfriend who likes Deus Ex O_o

And on the spelling topic (I'm being neutral here), grammar on the internet is like slang in the real world, just worse. xD

Laputin Man
14th Jul 2010, 15:52
Oh yeah, and VATS literally turned Fallout 3 into Fallout 2 in 3D. Same combat system. Same stat system. Same perk system. Remind me again exactly how it "isn't a proper Fallout game."

The only reason anybody has a problem with the art direction of this game is the fact that the original Deus Ex had literally NO art direction at ALL. God forbid should they actually give some sort of character to the world.

I have yet to hear a single argument argument against any of these games that in any way suggests that the people making them put any sort of thought into them whatsoever. Every single last bit of complaint sounds as though it's a knee-jerk reaction to something being different than it used to be, which is hilarious since all these games are old as **** and are in desperate need of updates to make them less clunky.

No the Vats system did not make the game anything remotely close to either FO 1 or 2. The stats were different, they had less effect on your character and game world. It wasn't a proper FO game because it played nothing like a FO game. It was more like playing Oblivion with guns and the VATS system which was an I WIN button. For instance the each point in agility only raised your vats accuracy 2%. In the original games hitting certain locations on an enemy yielded different results/effects. In FO 3 this wasn't really the case except for head shot = critical and nothing else really.

The original DE had art derection. It was meant to look a lot like the present. It pulled that off really well I thought. The world has as much character as ours does, that was the whole point. Did you not read WS's words in the thread I saw you post in? The one interviewing him and the team before DE1 shipped.

Romeo
14th Jul 2010, 17:50
I was going to give this thread a chance to flourish and evolve, but it seems to have simply turned into a directed attack against those who voice any opinions against DX:HR. As such...

LOCKDOWN.