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vaalix
30th Mar 2014, 19:18
I don't know if this would break any lore they are sticking to but I think 3 faction fighting each other in maps would be wicked fun..

werewolf - warrior
werewolf - stalker
werewolf - ???

MasterShuriko
30th Mar 2014, 19:28
I sense that you do not Know Nosgoth lore or any of the story in it, about it and its inhabitants.

There are no Werewolves in Nosgoth.

vaalix
30th Mar 2014, 19:31
There needs to be.. lol.. Your right I don't know the lore thats what I said "I don't know if this would break any lore"

I just thought it would be a cool addition..

MasterShuriko
30th Mar 2014, 19:40
It´s ok m8=D

We all have ideas sometimes. But Werewolfes are out of the question here.
If you do want to know more about Nosgoth you have quite a few games to go through that will leave you stunned and amazed.
"Blood Omen" "Blood Omen 2 Legacy Of Kain" "Legacy Of Kain: Soul Reaver 1-2" "Legacy Of Kain Defiance".
At the moment theres a bundle for all games (except the first one thats to old apparently) for approx 7.52 euro.

Lord_Aevum
30th Mar 2014, 19:52
I sense that you do not Know Nosgoth lore or any of the story in it, about it and its inhabitants.

There are no Werewolves in Nosgoth.

No, that's not the case, MasterShuriko. Werewolves have actually existed in Nosgoth since the very beginning of the series. Please refer to this article (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/lostcity.php) on Dark Chronicle for a little more information.

PencileyePirate
30th Mar 2014, 20:00
I don't think they'd fit in well with the lore of this time period ... and a third faction would mess with gameplay balance. I'd much rather see Psyonix focus their efforts on fixing lobby bugs and adding new classes for the existing races.

Vampmaster
30th Mar 2014, 20:09
No, that's not the case, MasterShuriko. Werewolves have actually existed in Nosgoth since the very beginning of the series. Please refer to this article (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/lostcity.php) on Dark Chronicle for a little more information.

They were also in Dark Eden where Kain learns the lightning spell:
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Werewolves

TendrilSavant
30th Mar 2014, 20:09
You might also want to check out THIS (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=7835) thread from last October as well, for info on werewolves in LoK lore.

While werewolves could be added in some way, having them as a third faction might be too much though.

GameInsomnia
31st Mar 2014, 03:10
werewolves while breaking lore, also would unbalance the game too much,
however having looked at the new vampire class. which to me appears to be some kinda of long range mage,
its gives me the idea that we need a vampire class which is long range specialist and useless up close unlike all the other vampire class.
correspondingly we can have a human class that is capable of going up close and beating the vampires but doesn't really work from any sense of range, unlike all the human class's.

i feel it would balance the game more and add a whole new level of thinking in combat that will only enhance the experience of nosgoth.


it also occurs to me a new game mode perhaps could be somewhat of infected type of mode, start off with 5 v3 , humans and vampires, humans have only one health station between them and every vampire that kills a human, the human will become a vampire.. one side wins by removing the other side entirely, and with only one life it would be rather intense..



another game mode of course would be domination, while it is a almost standard game mode, its fun and i feel with this game and the general feel of the maps and the variety of things that player can do another. it would be more interesting then say domination in other generic shooters


just some idea's i have thought of while i have been playing the game, been here since alpha and its one of the most fun and intense multi player games i have played in a while.

MasterShuriko
31st Mar 2014, 04:25
Oh snap I missed that

Vampmaster
31st Mar 2014, 09:13
werewolves while breaking lore, also would unbalance the game too much

As we explained in the links, there ARE werewolves in Blood Omen. You're right though, a third faction would unbalance the game. As a class of humans, they could potentially work if the right game mode came along. The Lieutenants have been suggested as a special type of super vampire for specific game modes, so werewolves could perhaps be one of the human counterparts to that.

Korevas
31st Mar 2014, 09:39
werewolves while breaking lore, also would unbalance the game too much,
however having looked at the new vampire class. which to me appears to be some kinda of long range mage,
its gives me the idea that we need a vampire class which is long range specialist and useless up close unlike all the other vampire class.
correspondingly we can have a human class that is capable of going up close and beating the vampires but doesn't really work from any sense of range, unlike all the human class's.


No. The game is entirely based around the asymmetrical factions and the melee vs. range idea. Long range vampires without *severe* penalties would completely break it.

Also, regarding the op, no one needs a poorly thought out completely random "idea", that is more or less derived from vaguely defined fictional tropes like "vampires should fight werewolves". It doesn't work with the lore, it doesn't work with the gameplay we have and as a whole, it's kinda boring.

Vampmaster
31st Mar 2014, 09:52
It's like talking to a brick wall. :rolleyes:

Lord_Aevum
31st Mar 2014, 11:19
Folks, there is absolutely nothing lore breaking about Werewolves in this world; just play Blood Omen if you don't already understand why. The only liberty I can see being taken with this general concept is the implication that they survived well into Kain's empire, but given their physical strength in the first game, that's hardly impossible or far-fetched.

NickTsiou
31st Mar 2014, 11:35
Folks, there is absolutely nothing lore breaking about Werewolves in this world; just play Blood Omen if you don't already understand why. The only liberty I can see being taken with this general concept is the implication that they survived well into Kain's empire, but given their physical strength in the first game, that's hardly impossible or far-fetched.


In the same way of thinking there is nothing wrong with having Hylden in Nosgoth (game)... You will ofcourse tell me they didn't show up anywhere in the SR era and they are banished from the land, although there were no werewolves in the SR era either, when this game is pretty much related to, so I guess again the whole point of view is wrong.

Lord_Aevum
31st Mar 2014, 11:58
Not wrong, but perhaps not properly analogous, because these two things aren't equatable. To say that the Hylden simply couldn't appear is reasonable, because we know from previous games that they've been banished by the Pillars. The games don't tell us that Werewolves have been banished or exterminated by anything, however, so we can't say if they do or don't exist in that era. There were werewolf-like concept artworks (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120226151633/legacyofkain/images/b/bf/SR1-Enemy-UnusedVampireWolf.jpg) created for Soul Reaver, though.

Vampmaster
31st Mar 2014, 11:59
In the same way of thinking there is nothing wrong with having Hylden in Nosgoth (game)... You will ofcourse tell me they didn't show up anywhere in the SR era and they are banished from the land, although there were no werewolves in the SR era either, when this game is pretty much related to, so I guess again the whole point of view is wrong.

The difference is that we know the hylden were banished and we were told by Amy Hennig and others from Crystal Dynamics that Raziel didn't know about the hylden until Kain told him at the end or SR2 and in timelines prior to that, Kain didn't know about them either and therefore couldn't have encountered them. Virtually nothing has been revealed about the werewolves, so it's hard to say if they were scattered to the corners of Nosgoth during Kains empire or if they were kept around to hunt for sport/training or died out long ago.

MysteryOne
31st Mar 2014, 14:43
I think that Human and Vampire factions as a race are enough until release - 3rd faction should come in the future of it's release, if at all.

Vampmaster
31st Mar 2014, 14:58
They're not against the lore, but they shouldn't be a third faction. That's all I was saying. At most they'd be a class of human and probably only for specific modes where melees vs ranged might not be an issue.

MysteryOne
31st Mar 2014, 15:39
They're not against the lore, but they shouldn't be a third faction. That's all I was saying. At most they'd be a class of human and probably only for specific modes where melees vs ranged might not be an issue.

Agreed.

Vallass
31st Mar 2014, 17:47
It's like talking to a brick wall. :rolleyes:

This is the internet Vampmaster. Where the rules don't apply and everything's made up. :D
I think if you post a few more times about the fact that wolves WERE in Blood Omen, in a day or two they might catch on....OR not...

Ygdrasel
31st Mar 2014, 18:21
There needs to be.. lol.. Your right I don't know the lore thats what I said "I don't know if this would break any lore"

I just thought it would be a cool addition..

It wouldn't. At all. With all due respect, if you don't know the lore, your ideas on lore-relevant stuff (like a third faction of any kind) will probably fail. Though werewolves don't break LoK lore, there is no reason whatsoever for them to be involved in the vampire-human conflict.

For the sake of knowing the lore (and just because it's an amazing series), I would suggest playing the rest of the series, starting from Blood Omen (if you can endure its poorly-aged self) or from Blood Omen 2 if you can't deal with BO1's dated ways. (In the latter case, get BO1's story off Wikipedia or something.)

shinros
31st Mar 2014, 20:05
Well if we have a vampire class that can transform into a wolf form like kain in blood omen 1 I would be okay with that but I wonder which clan would inherit kain's shape shifting skills.

Plus this conflict is centered on humans and vampires don't know why someone would want a 3rd faction no matter what it is.

OrLeX44
31st Mar 2014, 20:48
It's an interesting concept to have a 3rd faction. The possibility of making certain gametypes available with three factions would be something that could be cool. It would have to be very balanced though.

NickTsiou
31st Mar 2014, 20:53
Damn I really hope SE wont hear those suggestion for werewolves...

Indeed guys there were werewolves in BO1 BUT.... we didn't see any in SR1, nor SR2, nor BO2 and guess what? not in Defiance either so I guess something must have happened to them and they are no longer here...

I strongly believe that (if) any future reanimations or introductions of creatures in Nosgothic universe should be done through a single player game wth explanation of how, why and by whom rather than just because "it would be cool to add werewolves or fairies" :P

P.S. If I am wrong please correct me but it wasn't an inherted ability of Kain's to transform into wolf but a spell right? so I guess that answers the question of who would going to inherit it....

ZeroFernir
31st Mar 2014, 22:33
Werewolves may be opposing to Lieutenants IF lieutenants happen to appear in Nosgoth, if no other idea come up.. Not, AT ALL, in any other case. It would break the game atmosphere, giving power to humans. The game is fun because humans know they can't stand vampires and take ranged weapons to try to get some advantage before they get too close =P That's why no human melee class should ever be released.

Vampmaster
31st Mar 2014, 22:36
The reason they weren't in any games besides BO1 is most likely that:

1. Their presence would get in the way of the existing story arcs.
2. There wasn't time to implement them.

That doesn't mean that anyone had specifically decided they don't exist. Raziel didn't explore every inch of the entire planet, so there no information to draw any conclusions.

Note: I'm not really concerned about whether they appear in Nosgoth, I just don't see anything about it that's particularly plot breaking.

jukko111
31st Mar 2014, 23:53
Werewolves :D

I`m waiting for Zephon`s Kids.

ParadoxicalOmen
1st Apr 2014, 03:05
Werewolves are in no way against the lore...
Sure they only showed up in the first game, but nowhere was it said that they went extinct or anything of the like. My opinion is that it was just not the focus of the game(s) and was left aside.

Secondly, although i do love the werewolves and got mad that they were never seen again, we have to remember that they don't qualify as an "alternate class". This because both humans and vampires can achieve the werewolf form.
Kain and Vorador could transform, and also the humans inhabiting the lost city, for example.

Nubi_K
1st Apr 2014, 03:20
I sense that you do not Know Nosgoth lore or any of the story in it, about it and its inhabitants.

There are no Werewolves in Nosgoth.
Incorrect
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_City
http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Werewolves

The_Hylden
1st Apr 2014, 03:36
I'm very glad to see that most rational people who know the lore defended werewolves.

Shame it had to happen again, though.

PencileyePirate
1st Apr 2014, 14:21
Secondly, although i do love the werewolves and got mad that they were never seen again, we have to remember that they don't qualify as an "alternate class". This because both humans and vampires can achieve the werewolf form.
Kain and Vorador could transform, and also the humans inhabiting the lost city, for example.

Kain could also transform into a bat, but that doesn't make him a Werebat. I would argue that Kain and Vorador's transformative skills were a result of their vampirism, and that only humans can be true "werewolves." From the wiki:


These lycanthropes fought him as wolves, but resumed human form when they died. This duality, however, seemed to be their natural, inherent state of being, whereas the vampires' Wolf Form was unnatural and magically-adopted.

With that said, the only way I would support Werewolves in game would be as a human class.

Umngyr
1st Apr 2014, 16:45
I don't know if this would break any lore they are sticking to but I think 3 faction fighting each other in maps would be wicked fun..

werewolf - warrior
werewolf - stalker
werewolf - ???

no. just no.

TendrilSavant
1st Apr 2014, 21:51
I'm very glad to see that most rational people who know the lore defended werewolves.

Shame it had to happen again, though.

I think too many people are too hung up on how werewolves are portrayed in current media. I'm sure many want to distance Nosgoth from either the Underworld or Twilight romance centered franchises.

If you do some research on werewolves though, there's plenty of folklore to build upon. With good direction, I'm sure an interesting lore for werewolves could be established within Nosgoth.

Here's my logic; humans in Nosgoth have historically used whatever means at their disposal to kill vampires: steampunk, magic/eldritch energy, demon summoning and even time travel. So why wouldn't some of them resort to lycanthropy? The real problem, if implemented, is how to make a human werewolf use ranged weapons in order to keep the current asymmetrical gameplay.

ZeroFernir
1st Apr 2014, 23:24
I think too many people are too hung up on how werewolves are portrayed in current media. I'm sure many want to distance Nosgoth from either the Underworld or Twilight romance centered franchises.

If you do some research on werewolves though, there's plenty of folklore to build upon. With good direction, I'm sure an interesting lore for werewolves could be established within Nosgoth.

Here's my logic; humans in Nosgoth have historically used whatever means at their disposal to kill vampires: steampunk, magic/eldritch energy, demon summoning and even time travel. So why wouldn't some of them resort to lycanthropy? The real problem, if implemented, is how to make a human werewolf use ranged weapons in order to keep the current asymmetrical gameplay.

Right. As they said, Werewolves are, in no way, against the lore. They are well-known by the fanbase, actually. But the assymetrical gameplay is something that needs to be kept, it is one of the biggest attractives to the non-old-times-fan community, which is the taget audience for this game (so the franchise would rise from the ashes, in the utopic future). Maybe in one specific game mode (and please don't do too many of them) there may be the werewolves. Otherwise, I would find it out of the atmosphere (even though, as an old-time fan of LoK, I found hard to believe that Nosgoth get me the fun that it's getting. I doubt nothing, anymore).

SaturaxCZ
2nd Apr 2014, 11:23
Werewolves dont need new fraction: Orginal purpose of werewolves was defend vampires over day, when they sleep and werewolfs was slaves/pets for vampires soo give 1 character of warewolves on vampire side will not harm anyone :gamer:

When i see planed over 10 new classes i dont think there is enought time creat new fraction + combat vampires vs werewolves will need lot of time remove all bugs, if it get in game... so meybe later in some big game update ? After all basic game parts and characters are finished ?

Vampmaster
2nd Apr 2014, 11:36
Orginal purpose of werewolves was defend vampires over day, when they sleep and werewolfs was slaves/pets for vampires

That's only in certain franchises. As far as I know the myths evolved separately, so any franchise that uses both can make up it's own backstory for them.

I don't think it's 10 new classes. There's 6 existing ones and then 6 new ones if they manage to include the 3 remaining clans plus 3 new human classes to balance things out.

NickTsiou
2nd Apr 2014, 12:23
Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps... or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?

I do not mean to offend anyone but a current path should be followed... IMHO since no werewolf appeared in after-BO1 Nosgoth then tis should be kept in this game which is actually really close to the era mentioned above.

Again no offense but that's the problem when newcomers, that do not have played the saga, start throwing random ideas about what sounds funny or cool to them...

No disrespect to anyone, just my personal opinion.

SaturaxCZ
2nd Apr 2014, 12:41
That's only in certain franchises. As far as I know the myths evolved separately, so any franchise that uses both can make up it's own backstory for them.

I don't think it's 10 new classes. There's 6 existing ones and then 6 new ones if they manage to include the 3 remaining clans plus 3 new human classes to balance things out.

I had fear about game mechanic: fight humans vs vampire, werewolves is without problem, becose they can us same/similar mechanic, but creat fight vampire vs werewolves can be tricky.

For werewolfs serving vampires: You can easy creat own, not used story without franchise like: Old werewolf clan living in peace and harmony with nature deep in XXX mountains,behinde XXX forest, until humans come and start killing them just becose they looks like beast and call it justice ( no one did us it for sure becose its boring ), right before XXX werewolfs clan annihilation, they did find new ally: The vampire Lord XXX from XXX clan. Soo... they start fight humans together. I dont think its problem creat whatever new clan you wish for and end of story for werewolf clan like this will allow all werewolf models you wish for from: some rat werewolfs hated be vampires and serve in fear in nearby swamps around crypts, up to royal guard werewolfs with hight pride defending only oldest pure blood vampires lords for generations.... just come up with name and side story about 5-10 sentences. ( English is not my strong side, soo i will leave it for some one else with imagination and beter language skill ) My point is: why creat some good story for action game, creat bad story to get character in action game is what is count, or not ?

+ i think orginal saga is full of holes and leave place for imagination, say it was not in saga so dont give it here, Ok i respect it... but if players want werewolfs and game is not based on story... is it realy problem? Of course i hope it will not walk down from main path, but +1 worewolf character dont sound like much problem... soo meybe creat some poll for players if they want it or not ?

ParadoxicalOmen
2nd Apr 2014, 12:58
Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps... or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?

I do not mean to offend anyone but a current path should be followed... IMHO since no werewolf appeared in after-BO1 Nosgoth then tis should be kept in this game which is actually really close to the era mentioned above.

Again no offense but that's the problem when newcomers, that do not have played the saga, start throwing random ideas about what sounds funny or cool to them...

No disrespect to anyone, just my personal opinion.

I think including Demons in this game just isn't right...They didn't appear in the SR era.
They still exist of course, but they haven't been able to enter Nosgoth since BO2 if i'm not mistaken. This because Kain closed the portal to their realm in the end of BO2. After this start the SR era, with Kain rising the 6 lieutenants etc etc...and in this era the Hylden and Demons aren't seen anymore.


As for the werewolves, i am not against the idea that they still exist in SR era...but frankly, if they did, it's more likely that they are hidden somewhere like in the "Lost City" (since they are nowhere to be seen).
I also had another theory that i dunno if it is plausible...
Werewolves probably didn't appear anymore due to the smoke towers that blocked out the sun AND the moon rays.

Vampmaster
2nd Apr 2014, 13:14
Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps... or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?

I do not mean to offend anyone but a current path should be followed... IMHO since no werewolf appeared in after-BO1 Nosgoth then tis should be kept in this game which is actually really close to the era mentioned above.

Again no offense but that's the problem when newcomers, that do not have played the saga, start throwing random ideas about what sounds funny or cool to them...

No disrespect to anyone, just my personal opinion.

Was that directed at me, since I was the one who said about Raziel not exploring the whole planet? Alright, point taken. Werewolves are fantasy creatures and not even in the same genre as vampires and absence of proof is proof of absence and it was just a joke/mistake that they were added to BO1 in the first place. Happy?

SaturaxCZ
2nd Apr 2014, 13:15
Aside from saga what you guys expect from werewolfs in game ? When i think about it... its basicaly the same gameplay like curent vampires, so what new powers specialy for werewolfes would be interesting ? I tought about tracking like: hightlight blood, steps of humans or scent in air, but when i think about some realy orginal powers werewolf was basicly strong, ressistant, fast regenerate, atc... so its like vampire tyrant... ( give vampire tracking ability is posible too... so its not 100% werewolfs only )

PencileyePirate
2nd Apr 2014, 14:22
Aside from saga what you guys expect from werewolfs in game ? When i think about it... its basicaly the same gameplay like curent vampires, so what new powers specialy for werewolfes would be interesting ? I tought about tracking like: hightlight blood, steps of humans or scent in air, but when i think about some realy orginal powers werewolf was basicly strong, ressistant, fast regenerate, atc... so its like vampire tyrant... ( give vampire tracking ability is posible too... so its not 100% werewolfs only )

Highlighting blood trails to follow a human would be an interesting vampire skill, though.

TendrilSavant
2nd Apr 2014, 18:03
Do you know what else appears in the saga? Creatures from the Demon Realm... why not then bring some of them in as well, it wouldn't be lore breaking would it? perhaps the humans have found a way to summon demons to fight vamps...



I think including Demons in this game just isn't right...They didn't appear in the SR era.


Actually... there were plans to have a human boss that summoned monster/demons in SR1, the Priestess. Unfortunately it was cut due to time/budget constraints.

I'm not arguing for a summoning class, just stating that there is so much more lore to the LoK series that most don't realize.


They still exist of course, but they haven't been able to enter Nosgoth since BO2 if i'm not mistaken. This because Kain closed the portal to their realm in the end of BO2. After this start the SR era, with Kain rising the 6 lieutenants etc etc...and in this era the Hylden and Demons aren't seen anymore.


Nosgoth takes place before any time paradoxes occur (the ones cause by Raziel anyway), and the devs are making their gameplay/lore choices based on this premise.

Vampmaster
2nd Apr 2014, 18:28
Amy had previously said this era was unaffected by the paradoxes, so it wouldn't make any difference.

There were at least two timelines where demons existed in Nosgoth without the hylden gate being open and with the binding still intact. They were at Avernus in the original timeline when Azimuth was summoning them, then in SR2 where Moebius sends Raziel forward instead of back to Janos' time period and then in that period too after Janos died. Sure time had been altered by Raziel sparing Kain, but just like how Raziel said that killing Kain's future self wouldn't alter the past events, sparing him shouldn't either.

The_Hylden
2nd Apr 2014, 21:35
or on the same way fo thinking since Raziel didn't explore the whole planet, perhaps fairies, dwarfs, aliens and lepricans were there... what if they managed to get into this war?

While not meaning to offend, you're sounding most condescending and comparing apples to oranges to exaggerate your point. Werewolves were very present in the current map explored by Kain. No other creature you mention here was. Werewolves are just as much a horror trope as vampires, which fairies, dwarfs, aliens, and Leprechauns usually are either in the fantasy, or sci-fi categories, and certainly are far devoid from this conversation, since they've never appeared in the games, nor ever have been even mentioned in any game. So, why use them as examples?

Since werewolves were otherwise human, they would make sense for the human class to have as a special power, if nothing else. No-one is saying they must be implemented. However, if it were, somehow, it would not be out of place, nor should it be off-putting for any newcomer. I mean, if you can't take a human transforming into a werewolf, but you can somehow take vampires flying, or launching themselves up into the air and landing with enough force to crack open the earth, etc., etc., then there's something odd at play.


As for demon summoning, that would not be out of place either. Human already have traps they can set. A demon that is summoned and acts as a trap to tear apart vampires, instead of a turret, or bomb, certainly would work. It fits not only with BO1, where the entirety of Avernus was overrun by demons Azimuth and her followers summoned, but in the last game seen in the series, Defiance, where the followers of Azimuth and Mortanius, the Cenobites, directly summon demons to attack both Raziel and Kain within Avernus Cathedral. So, kudos in your jest for coming up with a very good suggestion ;)


Werewolves are fantasy creatures and not even in the same genre as vampires and absence of proof is proof of absence and it was just a joke/mistake that they were added to BO1 in the first place. Happy?


While I get that you're making a sarcastic point in rebuttal of Nick above, Vampmaster, I'll just note here once more for any who may actually believe this that werewolves are completely NOT fantasy trope creatures and are just as much horror monsters as vampires are. In fact, as we've all bore witness to a certain history of them linked by others before months ago, vampire and werewolves perhaps even spawned from the same idea in our actual world thousands of years ago, but they were thought of at the very least for similar reasons.


On the subject of them being used, as I noted in the previous thread I believe, they would not have to be a separate faction, but could be a power bought for any human class (since any human really should be able to be cursed as a werewolf), and used sparingly, as a one-off power once per match maybe (you transform briefly, and while in this form you can reek some havoc, but then it's over and possibly leaves you weakened in the downtime to recover, so your human would have to get out of fire fast), perhaps working best on maps where it is night, or the moon is out.


These are just ideas. I do think it best that they get the existing game working and I know they're working hard on that. There are always possibilities for the future that should not be discounted, however.


Note on demons and timelines: they are in every timeline. Even past the last paradox of SR2, the one that engendered BO2's events, this led to them still being summoned in Avernus, as I mentioned, and also demons are brought through the gate in BO2 by the Hylden.

TheIgHero
3rd Apr 2014, 01:47
I would actually like to see werewolves maybe give the game a horde mode where both Vamps & Humans work together against the Werewolfs. Another the other option allow the human team to pick between playing as the vampire or human Faction to battle the werewolves.
(Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend)

kushmankilla
3rd Apr 2014, 09:07
werewolves in this game would be awesome Also i have an idea that i think would be more fair and easier to implement into the game... what about just making a werewolf skin for the reaver? if you think about it most of his moves would be cool as a werewolf and it wouldnt mess with anything balance wise. and as a human it would at some variaty to the monsterrs your slaying.

ZeroFernir
3rd Apr 2014, 11:35
werewolves in this game would be awesome Also i have an idea that i think would be more fair and easier to implement into the game... what about just making a werewolf skin for the reaver? if you think about it most of his moves would be cool as a werewolf and it wouldnt mess with anything balance wise. and as a human it would at some variaty to the monsterrs your slaying.

But don't you think it would feel awkward to have a werewolf among vampires?

RemovedQuasar
3rd Apr 2014, 16:09
Cool idea but it will kill the Nosgoth lore :D :D

During the Kain's Empire there were only 2 factions: humand and vampires.

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Apr 2014, 01:06
^
Yup...people just don't seem to get that...

The_Hylden
4th Apr 2014, 04:02
Ugh, kill the lore by adding in more of the lore. That is what you are suggesting people aren't getting at.

We do not know that there weren't humans in this era under Kain's rule cursed by Lycanthropy. That they didn't animate yet another enemy class in SR1 for Raziel to face is not the absence of the possibility, especially given that they existed in the Nosgoth that Kain conquered. There is no evidence of him wiping them all out. It would stand to reason, unless officially made clear otherwise, that these cursed humans, like humans cursed with vamparism after Moebius' efforts to wipe them out, are not extinct.

Vampmaster
4th Apr 2014, 10:38
Ugh, kill the lore by adding in more of the lore. That is what you are suggesting people aren't getting at.

We do not know that there weren't humans in this era under Kain's rule cursed by Lycanthropy. That they didn't animate yet another enemy class in SR1 for Raziel to face is not the absence of the possibility, especially given that they existed in the Nosgoth that Kain conquered. There is no evidence of him wiping them all out. It would stand to reason, unless officially made clear otherwise, that these cursed humans, like humans cursed with vamparism after Moebius' efforts to wipe them out, are not extinct.

Indeed. The precedent has been set for them being able to exist in the LOK universe and now there's no evidence for *either* their survival *or* their extinction. There's literally no information to jump to any conclusions about whether they exist in this era.

For situations like that, where there is precedent and no evidence one way or the other, it's entirely up to whoever the writer is at the time whether to include the subject in question.

ParadoxicalOmen
4th Apr 2014, 11:30
Ugh, kill the lore by adding in more of the lore. That is what you are suggesting people aren't getting at.

We do not know that there weren't humans in this era under Kain's rule cursed by Lycanthropy. That they didn't animate yet another enemy class in SR1 for Raziel to face is not the absence of the possibility, especially given that they existed in the Nosgoth that Kain conquered. There is no evidence of him wiping them all out. It would stand to reason, unless officially made clear otherwise, that these cursed humans, like humans cursed with vamparism after Moebius' efforts to wipe them out, are not extinct.

You guys keep ignoring the smoke towers...I'm not saying the werewolves went extinct, i'm just saying they don't appear.
Smoke towers = no moon rays = no human werewolves
Only vampires could transform into werewolves at will. All human werewolves were strictly seen in those those "full moon secret areas" in BO. In my opinion, this means they needed the full moon to transform, which no longer is possible due to the smoke towers.

I'm all in for the werewolves...i constantly complain that Kain doesn't use his werewolf form, and how they don't appear in any other game aside from BO...But that doesn't mean you can reintroduce them any way you like, ignoring the world/setting/context.

Vampmaster
4th Apr 2014, 11:47
Does the smoke cover the whole world?
Do the clouds ever part?
Are they thick enough to block out all light or is it more like on a very cloudy day?
Is the werewolves transformation because of direct exposure to moonlight or it it the moon's gravitational position or something supernatural that has nothing to do with the light.

There's just no information.

TheMalgot
4th Apr 2014, 13:15
I would rather like to see the fate of the werewolves remains unknown.
While werewolves aren't against the lore per se, Nosgoth would make a clear, unmistakable statement about their existence and their faction and for me, werewolves always were loners instead of joining forces with someone.

But the lost city as a battle arena would be a neat idea. :3

Lord_Aevum
4th Apr 2014, 14:22
Heh, well, they've already taken a bigger leap than that by revealing that the Razielim survived long enough to grow wings.

In this kind of situation, where you have an excuse to use something mostly untapped and interesting, I don't think any writer or designer would realistically decide to say "whoops, they're all dead, oh well". There's not really a thematic issue, a logic issue, or a flogging the dead horse issue here, like bringing back Vorador or the Sarafan for instance.

SaturaxCZ
4th Apr 2014, 14:30
I dont get few parts: Why need werewolfs moon rays to transform ?
There was more variants of werewolf transformations in some cases they just didnt us 100% power without moon, but was able transofrm without problem. Werewolf did live all time transformed to werewolf form even under ground. Moust of time human is forced transforme under moon light, but say becose there is smoke covering 100% planet 24/7x365 days he can not transform dont sound right, more like advantage for werewolf, without direct moon rays he is not forced transforme and can stay under cover. :rolleyes:

+Im curious what other beasts and animals this realm hiding ? Have vampires or humans some animals useful for battlefield ?
( on action buttons ) Like:
Noisy Bug, place on wall and when enemy go around make sound+paralyze human for moment. Can have diferent abilitys.
Falcon vs flying vampires, point on vampire and whistle and he will make him fall on ground.
Snake for vampires, move in line, when he reach human ( watching 99% roofs and sky ), bite him or splite poison.

Us other animals like semi inteligent type of weapon ? :lol: or did humans and vampires kill all other specieses and can not be in game ?

The_Hylden
4th Apr 2014, 16:36
Indeed, there was never a statement that they need moonlight, simply that when the moon is full, the moon doors open and you're able to access areas where they are most prevalent, like the Lost City and where you find the Lightning Spell. I don't think it matters, though. They still roam around the Lost City in the sunlight, if you stay in there past the night, for instance. I believe the one possibly in Vorador's Mansion is in transformed mode, whether, or not, the moon is full. I can't say for sure on that, though.


However, as noted above by others, the smokestacks aren't 100% covering the entire sky with smoke so thick no light of any kind gets through. I mean, the sun gets through. The opening to SR1 is very much bathed in sunlight. Perhaps it's a bit more yellow, as if the light is diffused, but it's there. If you discount that as GlyphX just didn't get the memo of what lighting it was to be, then there are also the ingame shafts of light that you burn up fledglings with indoors. That's sunlight you're burning them with. Perhaps the smokestacks have faded more in the later days of the empire, but it seems more logical that they were simply used to diffuse the light to make it less of a problem for fledglings. However, they shouldn't be used to blot out all light. What would humans use to grow crops? While vampires keep them as slaves and for food, they certainly need them to keep living and breeding, so humans eating their veggies is a priority, I am sure. With the land systematically dying, slowly, food and the resources to maintain it grow ever more scarce. Vampires completely cutting off the sun would ensure their own demise, after the humans and all of the remaining livestock and plant-life on the planet died off from lack of sunlight first.

ParadoxicalOmen
5th Apr 2014, 23:19
A valid point...
Although i could still argue that the fact that they are still in werewolf from in the sun is due to laziness...Since it would require an extra effort on the programmers etc etc. And was not worth it since they only appear in 2 areas, the Lost City and Lighting Spell Area (at least i only remember seeing them in these 2 places).

Well, i guess it`s open to debate. There is nothing substantial about the werewolves in Nosgoth, aside that they exist and that this ability isn`t restricted to humans only.
I still think that they were more of a secret and hard to find, so wouldn`t be right to make them as a Class. This would give the idea that they are common.

TendrilSavant
6th Apr 2014, 06:11
A valid point...
Although i could still argue that the fact that they are still in werewolf from in the sun is due to laziness...Since it would require an extra effort on the programmers etc etc. And was not worth it since they only appear in 2 areas, the Lost City and Lighting Spell Area (at least i only remember seeing them in these 2 places).
It seems like your weighting your opinion based on Hollywood werewolves; most of which are influenced by the 1941 film The Wolf Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wolf_Man_%281941_film%29). Not all werewolves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf) need a full moon to transform.

Vampires in LoK are so unique and far from your run of the mill Dracula variant; so why would you expect generic werewolves if they were added? I just don't see a reason to stifle the artist and designers by saying "I don't want werewolves."

PencileyePirate
6th Apr 2014, 07:16
I see all this lore based discussion when (IMO) the more important issue is this:

Nosgoth's humans vs. vampires equates to ranged vs. melee. If we throw in werewolves, they'll need to fit into one (or both) of the two factions ... or exist only as some intermediate wildcard faction in a game mode designed especially for their inclusion. Otherwise they'll just unbalance what is currently a very well balanced game, ruining Nosgoth's competitive potential.

kushmankilla
6th Apr 2014, 07:26
thats why im saying just make the werewolf class either on the vampire side or as a skin for the reaver or the tyrant it would be awesome and stick with the lore.

Vampmaster
6th Apr 2014, 08:03
I see all this lore based discussion when (IMO) the more important issue is this:

Nosgoth's humans vs. vampires equates to ranged vs. melee. If we throw in werewolves, they'll need to fit into one (or both) of the two factions ... or exist only as some intermediate wildcard faction in a game mode designed especially for their inclusion. Otherwise they'll just unbalance what is currently a very well balanced game, ruining Nosgoth's competitive potential.

^^That is a much better reason for not including them. Like I said earlier, they might be suitable for certain game modes, but they could be difficult to fit into the existing ones without unbalancing the game. Also, while not against the lore, it's important to pick the right time and place to include them without over complicating the plot.

The_Hylden
6th Apr 2014, 13:19
My notion above agrees with you, Paradoxical Omen, and all following, that it shouldn't probably be a new class. I think if something like it were implemented, again, just have it be a special ability that can be used maybe once per round on the human side, like a brief rage/invulnerable power mode, and once it's used, it's over. It could also be a special power that is random that any on the human team could use and only on a certain map (with a full moon). It would sure spice things up if suddenly, and without warning, one of the humans transforms and goes into a brief berserker mode. Even the Tyrant would be wise to not engage the werewolf until the transformation ends. Once it's over, the human would maybe have to hide to recover and would be vulnerable after this.

Certainly, I doubt anything like this would be implemented until a while down the road anyway. It would be nice, though.

ParadoxicalOmen
6th Apr 2014, 20:03
It seems like your weighting your opinion based on Hollywood werewolves; most of which are influenced by the 1941 film The Wolf Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wolf_Man_%281941_film%29). Not all werewolves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf) need a full moon to transform.

Vampires in LoK are so unique and far from your run of the mill Dracula variant; so why would you expect generic werewolves if they were added? I just don't see a reason to stifle the artist and designers by saying "I don't want werewolves."

Didn't you read my whole post, dude? I explicitly agreed with that idea in the next paragraph:
"Well, i guess it`s open to debate. There is nothing substantial about the werewolves in Nosgoth, aside that they exist and that this ability isn`t restricted to humans only."




My notion above agrees with you, Paradoxical Omen, and all following, that it shouldn't probably be a new class. I think if something like it were implemented, again, just have it be a special ability that can be used maybe once per round on the human side, like a brief rage/invulnerable power mode, and once it's used, it's over. It could also be a special power that is random that any on the human team could use and only on a certain map (with a full moon). It would sure spice things up if suddenly, and without warning, one of the humans transforms and goes into a brief berserker mode. Even the Tyrant would be wise to not engage the werewolf until the transformation ends. Once it's over, the human would maybe have to hide to recover and would be vulnerable after this.

Certainly, I doubt anything like this would be implemented until a while down the road anyway. It would be nice, though.

The main reason i'm against Werewolf as a class is that it is a rare trait in Nosgoth, or least seems to be.
They were only found in special locations and even among the vampires it wasn't common (the only know vampires to transform into werewolf are Kain and Vorador).

Meh...but maybe i'm being too restrictive...
For me it would be ideal for them to be reintroduced in a new ADVENTURE FOCUSED LoK game. In a setting such as, you are exploring a not well know region of Nosgoth and stumble upon them. Maybe re-finding a werewolf shrine, similar to the one in BO...

Eh...i dunno...i just wish it to be well done, and not simply stuffed in the game out of nowhere...

Vallass
7th Apr 2014, 03:02
Does the smoke cover the whole world?
Do the clouds ever part?
Are they thick enough to block out all light or is it more like on a very cloudy day?
Is the werewolves transformation because of direct exposure to moonlight or it it the moon's gravitational position or something supernatural that has nothing to do with the light.

There's just no information.

Going by SR1 era, even CENTURIES after this game, sunlight still breaks through the clouds, leading to Raziel being able to burn vamps to death with SUNLIGHT. So no, the smokestacks don't block out all light centuries after this game's timeline, and I'm betting they let a bit more light in now that humans are actively destroying all things vamp. Super fires that keep their young alive would most likely be high on the priority list for humans. I'm not putting anything for or against wolves, but lore-wise they could still change. More so now thanks to regular humans than previously even.

Then you can take into account the fact that werewolves in LEGACY OF KAIN don't need the moon to change. Some people should learn the lore to SOME degree before they post ridiculous things like," Vamps are protected by werewolves". That's Underworld. Not LoK, so please, don't combine the two. That's like saying since all holy symbols work against vampires in ShadowRun, they should work in EVERYTHING with vampires. It's ridiculous, and kind of annoying. This isn't aimed at you Vampmaster, just saying to the community as a whole

SaturaxCZ
7th Apr 2014, 05:42
Then you can take into account the fact that werewolves in LEGACY OF KAIN don't need the moon to change. Some people should learn the lore to SOME degree before they post ridiculous things like," Vamps are protected by werewolves". That's Underworld. Not LoK, so please, don't combine the two. That's like saying since all holy symbols work against vampires in ShadowRun, they should work in EVERYTHING with vampires. It's ridiculous, and kind of annoying. This isn't aimed at you Vampmaster, just saying to the community as a whole

It was more for game purpose so werewolfs will stay on vampire side and dont change game play. There can be all time one werewolf clan ally for vampires and come up with story more suitet for legacy of Kain. I would like to see orginal transformation, but dont want some over drive for game play soo... new skin will be plenty if players like it. ( or like some one said +2 skins tyrant, reaver )

About holy items and holy powers, i dont see problem have some character using them, it will work like all other weapons+diferent abilitys normal weapons can not have. ( dont tell me there is no specialist who can us holy weapons/relics, powers, symbols ( on scrols, paint on grounds symbol, atc... ) Who dont want see sky open and make AOE damage from sun light clasic weapon can not create and work basicaly same like arow barage ? :naughty: ( special ability can be: ignite vampires on sun, if they dont evade it and stay on light :D )

Vallass
7th Apr 2014, 17:47
It was more for game purpose so werewolfs will stay on vampire side and dont change game play. There can be all time one werewolf clan ally for vampires and come up with story more suitet for legacy of Kain. I would like to see orginal transformation, but dont want some over drive for game play soo... new skin will be plenty if players like it. ( or like some one said +2 skins tyrant, reaver )

About holy items and holy powers, i dont see problem have some character using them, it will work like all other weapons+diferent abilitys normal weapons can not have. ( dont tell me there is no specialist who can us holy weapons/relics, powers, symbols ( on scrols, paint on grounds symbol, atc... ) Who dont want see sky open and make AOE damage from sun light clasic weapon can not create and work basicaly same like arow barage ? :naughty: ( special ability can be: ignite vampires on sun, if they dont evade it and stay on light :D )

Vampires can't be hurt by sunlight after they've grown out of fledgling state though. I love the holy class idea, I just meant that the vamps aren't hurt by holy items, otherwise humans would wear them on EVERYTHING there is. Holy powers or whatever are fine, just holy symbols don't really affect vamps. And as for the werewolves on vamp sides, I'd imagine if they're still alive they remember Kain and his unholy hell-rained down on their city. I doubt if they really wanna join the vamps.

That being said, vamps turning into wolves is possible for mage class vamps, but I don't think true werewolves would be inclined to join the vampires. Especially since they're humans at times, and I don't think vamps would stop drinking blood on account of a little wofliness. Yea, it's a word now. Shut up. :D

SaturaxCZ
7th Apr 2014, 19:06
Vampires can't be hurt by sunlight after they've grown out of fledgling state though.

I just meant that the vamps aren't hurt by holy items, otherwise humans would wear them on EVERYTHING there is. Holy powers or whatever are fine, just holy symbols don't really affect vamps.

Didnt know it :D so just area flesh to blind ? Im sure some one will find something more suited for it. :worship:

I did mean it litl diferent, not like pasive protection against vampires just becose its HOLY :D, but user will us spiritual power/mana/will throught holy relic like spiritual tool/weapon. Throught make holy armor or repulsive item for few seconds sound interesting, meybe like support spell for frend in problem ( slowly pushing vampires from midle of gravity :D + damage/unable vampire suck blood after kill/mighty push, atc... There is definitely room for occult stuff )
Bow is too just harmless tool until you give it in corect hands ---> :nut: <---- dont give it this guy

ICantPauseItMom
7th Apr 2014, 19:37
Thinking of them being put into this game just makes me feel all tingly!!
I really wish they would add them as a faction, tho I dough it would, story and all that stuff wise...
BUT things about story's is they can do anything they want with them, all of a sudden they could appear with a hate to vampires, and humans could see them as a threat and attack them as well, giving them a reason to hate humans also.

Ygdrasel
8th Apr 2014, 06:54
BUT things about story's is they can do anything they want with them

Nope. A story has to follow continuity, internal logic, things like that.

"WEREWOLVES APPEAR AND INEXPLICABLY WAR WITH VAMPIRES! HUMANS INEXPLICABLY FEEL THREATENED BY WEREWOLVES KILLING THEIR ENEMIES!" is not a good story.

Also, just an observation but weren't the werewolves in BO1 mostly concentrated in the Lost City? That city that was accessed via a teleporter in the Lake of the Dead...In Nosgoth's era, no such teleporter exists as it presumably collapsed into the Abyss. Then there's the City itself which bares resemblance to ruins below the Abyss (in the Elder God's chamber), suggesting its destruction.

So...They probably would be extinct now in the latter case...Or trapped in the former...

Vampmaster
8th Apr 2014, 09:38
Nope. A story has to follow continuity, internal logic, things like that.

"WEREWOLVES APPEAR AND INEXPLICABLY WAR WITH VAMPIRES! HUMANS INEXPLICABLY FEEL THREATENED BY WEREWOLVES KILLING THEIR ENEMIES!" is not a good story.

Also, just an observation but weren't the werewolves in BO1 mostly concentrated in the Lost City? That city that was accessed via a teleporter in the Lake of the Dead...In Nosgoth's era, no such teleporter exists as it presumably collapsed into the Abyss. Then there's the City itself which bares resemblance to ruins below the Abyss (in the Elder God's chamber), suggesting its destruction.

So...They probably would be extinct now in the latter case...Or trapped in the former...

What about the ones in Dark Eden where Kain found the lightning spell? Also, even animals are smart enough to run away when the ground starts collapsing beneath their feet. There's no reason to assume that the lost city collapsed in a single massive event.

Lord_Aevum
8th Apr 2014, 11:15
How unbelievably dull and uncreative it would be if the team spoke out and said they're extinct, heh.

ZeroFernir
8th Apr 2014, 13:10
What about the ones in Dark Eden where Kain found the lightning spell? Also, even animals are smart enough to run away when the ground starts collapsing beneath their feet. There's no reason to assume that the lost city collapsed in a single massive event.

The ones in Dark Eden (I suppose) may be dead. As the Watchers of Dark Eden are from (tadaaaaa) Dark Eden, I suppose they got the place cleaned of all dangers so they can live there. But Nosgoth is so big! There may be a werewolf village or something hidden around.

agile2015
8th Apr 2014, 15:30
Sorry for interference. Just wanted to point out that, if there would be a third faction, it should be 'equiped' with weapons and abilities that differ from those of existing races. So werewolves can't be because they would be all melee like vamps... Fail.

Abraracoursix
15th Apr 2014, 12:24
I would gladly play a werewolf human class, for a third faction : I think it just won't be possible.