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Thirdeyeop3n
4th Jul 2010, 21:23
What kind of achievements do you guys want to see in Human Revolution? I think it would be cool to see ones that were unlocked by specific choices you make that change the course of the game. Meaning it would take multiple playthroughs to unlock them all.

MaxxQ1
4th Jul 2010, 21:58
What kind of achievements do you guys want to see in Human Revolution? I think it would be cool to see ones that were unlocked by specific choices you make that change the course of the game. Meaning it would take multiple playthroughs to unlock them all.

No achievements, please. Not for something like DX.

I didn't mind them so much in Dragon Age, or Sins of a Solar Empire, but please, please, not for DX.

Thirdeyeop3n
4th Jul 2010, 22:01
I doubt they will be in the PC version, but xbox and ps3 will have them for sure.

ChfMojoRising
4th Jul 2010, 22:05
Last I heard it was mandatory to have trophies/achievements on the PS3/360, so they'll be there.
Going by other games I've played, there is like to be one for finishing the game on different difficulties, one for getting certain endings, one for all endings, one for maxing each kind of available stat or play style and probably some tricky quest specific ones.

Overtime
4th Jul 2010, 22:08
No achievements, please. Not for something like DX.

I didn't mind them so much in Dragon Age, or Sins of a Solar Empire, but please, please, not for DX.

I agree.

Ilves
4th Jul 2010, 22:11
I used to think trophies were just a lame cop out, and artificial means to squeeze out replay value, a sign of the end times, or at least of creative bankruptcy... Then I replayed MGS4 and found I kinda missed them. :rolleyes:

Silliness aside, getting any 'reward' for performing in game actions is stupid. Finishing the game should be its own reward.

Gaunt88
4th Jul 2010, 22:13
Yeah, if it's being released on the 360, it's going to have acheivements. Simple as that.

I agree with the OP, achievements relating to branching plot elements would be preferable to a single lame "chose an alliance" acheivement.

I'm expecting a couple of shout-outs to the first game in the names, too (A BOMB! for something explosives-related, etc).

Irate_Iguana
4th Jul 2010, 22:35
Going by other games I've played, there is like to be one for finishing the game on different difficulties, one for getting certain endings, one for all endings, one for maxing each kind of available stat or play style and probably some tricky quest specific ones.

Of all the achievements 90% will be ones that you are going to achieve simply by going through the game. There are a select few games that actually feature achievements that take something special to gain. TF2 comes to mind. Half Life also had a decent one or two. It is rare to find something that actually encourages playing in a completely different style than normal.

ChfMojoRising
4th Jul 2010, 22:39
Hrm~ well, I guess it depends on the games you're buying, but I can say the only game I have like that is Final Fantasy 13~ still, it has 50% non-story progression related trophies~

Ashbery76
4th Jul 2010, 22:58
No achievements, please. Not for something like DX.

I didn't mind them so much in Dragon Age, or Sins of a Solar Empire, but please, please, not for DX.

That is right because it would not be hardcore DuesEx game if it had achievements.:mad2:

pringlepower
4th Jul 2010, 23:04
No achievements, please. Not for something like DX.

I didn't mind them so much in Dragon Age, or Sins of a Solar Empire, but please, please, not for DX.

What the hell do achievements do to change Deus Ex? If they're like most games and just given out for beating the game, then nothing changes. If they reward some unique gameplay, e.g., pacifist run, then they'll encourage that. Achievements force you to do nothing. They're an option, or just something that tracks progress.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 00:10
What the hell do achievements do to change Deus Ex? If they're like most games and just given out for beating the game, then nothing changes. If they reward some unique gameplay, e.g., pacifist run, then they'll encourage that. Achievements force you to do nothing. They're an option, or just something that tracks progress.

Can you imagine seeing a "Completed the Massively Deep Conversation"-achievement in Deus Ex, with a nice little (quite big) icon, taking up a quarter of the screen? Or "Destroyed 100 Garbage Cans"?

Seriously though: Achievements are for games where you don't really feel you've accomplished something, based solely on playing the game. If a game is good enough, it doesn't need "achievements", because you will already know what you have achieved. And really: who else needs to know?

MaxxQ1
5th Jul 2010, 00:25
That is right because it would not be hardcore DuesEx game if it had achievements.:mad2:

I'm not a "hardcore" fanboy like you seem to be accusing me of. In fact, I'm pretty ambivalent about most of the changes made from DX to DX:HR.


What the hell do achievements do to change Deus Ex? If they're like most games and just given out for beating the game, then nothing changes. If they reward some unique gameplay, e.g., pacifist run, then they'll encourage that. Achievements force you to do nothing. They're an option, or just something that tracks progress.

Frankly, achievements seem pretty childish to me, like getting a gold star next to your name in kindergarten for tying your shoes correctly. I'd like to think that I can reward myself for a job well-done, rather than rely on some outside party to decide if I did something that *they* decided was rewardable.

Challenge should be its own reward. I've never completed a completely non-lethal playthrough of DX, but if I ever feel up to the challenge of doing it, I'll do it on my own terms and not because I want to have bragging rights about some pissant little .bmp or .tiff that shows up on a menu screen.

As for replayability, if the game is good enough, you don't need fake "prizes" to play in a different style, or with a different character, or character build. Do you think I've done 5 complete playthroughs of Dragon Age just for the achievements? Right. I couldn't even tell you what achievements I have. I've never looked at them, because I couldn't care less about them. I played all those times because I was having fun with the game. OTOH, I've only ever played Sins of a Solar Empire once. Achievements haven't helped me to decide to play it again, because it simply isn't as fun as DA:O.

I've played DX at least once per year ever since release, trying out different augs and styles, and I've played Vampire - The Masquerade: Bloodlines several times since I got it a couple years ago. Like DX, I've also played the complete Baldur's Gate series several times, as well as many other games, none of which have achievements. Are you so insecure with your own abilities that you need outside validation to define how "good" you are? I don't feel the need to brag about something I did in a game, and I sure as hell couldn't care less about what anyone else did.

Then again, I don't give much of a **** about anyone or anything anyway, so...

whatever.

MaxxQ1
5th Jul 2010, 00:26
Can you imagine seeing a "Completed the Massively Deep Conversation"-achievement in Deus Ex, with a nice little (quite big) icon, taking up a quarter of the screen? Or "Destroyed 100 Garbage Cans"?

Seriously though: Achievements are for games where you don't really feel you've accomplished something, based solely on playing the game. If a game is good enough, it doesn't need "achievements", because you will already know what you have achieved. And really: who else needs to know?

Just as I said, but much less verbosely.

:thumb::thumb:

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 00:29
Can you imagine seeing a "Completed the Massively Deep Conversation"-achievement in Deus Ex, with a nice little (quite big) icon, taking up a quarter of the screen? Or "Destroyed 100 Garbage Cans"?

Seriously though: Achievements are for games where you don't really feel you've accomplished something, based solely on playing the game. If a game is good enough, it doesn't need "achievements", because you will already know what you have achieved. And really: who else needs to know?

The icon disappears after a second. And I know it breaks the vaunted "immersion", but so does an inventory menu. Basically, there's bigger fish to fry. Third-person, less freedom, or a bad plot will actually change how you play the game and the quality of the game. If achievements seem childish, that's great. I've never cared for them either, but they aren't such a big deal.

Dragon Age as I recall had pretty small pictures that faded after a second or two.

Eh it's a good business model for Microsoft.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 00:36
The icon disappears after a second. And I know it breaks the vaunted "immersion", but so does an inventory menu.

Wait... back up. You think something that is a representation of what you have on you in-game, breaks immersion in the same way that an icon that is (in actuality) completely unrelated to the game?

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 00:47
for f u c k sake. people are moaning that this game will have achievements now???
you people are really sad individuals.
you make me sick.
you would complain if someone gave you 5million pounds out of the goodness of their heart.

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 00:50
explain to me what purpose achievements would play in a DX game.

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 00:54
explain to me what difference it would make if they were or werent in the game.
i have noticed that people on this forum just complain about anything.
they could make deus ex 3 EXACTLY the same as deus ex 1 and you lot would complain about something.
you lot are moaning this game will have achievements now.
really?
i mean f u c k i n g really??
unbelievable.

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 00:56
Wait... back up. You think something that is a representation of what you have on you in-game, breaks immersion in the same way that an icon that is (in actuality) completely unrelated to the game?

Okay bad analogy, it was before dinner and I don't think well while hungry.

What I was going for is that achievements remind you that you're in a game. Likewise an inventory reminds you that you have the capacity to hold 4 guns, a rocket launcher, a sword, 5 cigarette packs, a crowbar, and night-vision goggles in your trenchcoat.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 01:09
explain to me what difference it would make if they were or werent in the game.
i have noticed that people on this forum just complain about anything.
they could make deus ex 3 EXACTLY the same as deus ex 1 and you lot would complain about something.
you lot are moaning this game will have achievements now.
really?
i mean f u c k i n g really??
unbelievable.

I love the fact that some people can't put two and two together.

This thing, in and of itself, is not a big thing. But the "Not a Big Thing":s are starting to add up, and are heading for "Oh, That is a Pretty Big Thing".

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 01:12
Okay bad analogy, it was before dinner and I don't think well while hungry.

What I was going for is that achievements remind you that you're in a game. Likewise an inventory reminds you that you have the capacity to hold 4 guns, a rocket launcher, a sword, 5 cigarette packs, a crowbar, and night-vision goggles in your trenchcoat.

Still, that is a part of the game. In reality, there are very few ways to present an inventory that are wholly un-intrusive. Whichever you look at it though, an inventory is an integral part of the game. An Achievement is not.

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 01:12
I love the fact that some people can't put two and two together.

This thing, in and of itself, is not a big thing. But the "Not a Big Thing":s are starting to add up, and are heading for "Oh, That is a Pretty Big Thing".

you talk utter bollocks.
don't play the game.

sonicsidewinder
5th Jul 2010, 01:12
A deus ex game has enough depth that they could create some interesting achievements.

What i hope they don't resort to are the boring sort. (pour examplé...)

"Blade Frenzy - Perform 100 lethal take downs!" - 60g :cool:
"Out Cold - Perform 100 non-lethal take downs!" - 60g :cool:

Would be quite funny if an achievement was given for completing the game without using the cover system.
But i aint buying for console so it doesn't matter unless it's put on the "Windows Games for Live" thing-a-ma-jig.
Don't rightly care for Steam achievies.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 01:17
you talk utter bollocks.
don't play the game.

Oh, a "stfu or gtfo" answer. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 01:18
Oh, a "stfu or gtfo" answer. Haven't seen one of those in a while.

listen geezer you are a bus driver??
what a crap job.
you have ultimately failed in life with a rubbish career.
your opinion is null and void.

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 01:22
A deus ex game has enough depth that they could create some interesting achievements.

What i hope they don't resort to are the boring sort. (pour examplé...)

"Blade Frenzy - Perform 100 lethal take downs!" - 60g :cool:
"Out Cold - Perform 100 non-lethal take downs!" - 60g :cool:

Would be quite funny if an achievement was given for completing the game without using the cover system.
But i aint buying for console so it doesn't matter unless it's put on the "Windows Games for Live" thing-a-ma-jig.
Don't rightly care for Steam achievies.

if they go for Windows Live, i'ma getting the crack, no doubt about it.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 01:22
listen geezer you are a bus driver??
what a crap job.
you have ultimately failed in life with a rubbish career.
your opinion is null and void.

Oh noes! Someone on da IntarWebz thinks I'm no good! Whatever am I going to do?

You're so cute when you have no real answers.

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 01:23
explain to me what difference it would make if they were or werent in the game.
i have noticed that people on this forum just complain about anything.
they could make deus ex 3 EXACTLY the same as deus ex 1 and you lot would complain about something.
you lot are moaning this game will have achievements now.
really?
i mean f u c k i n g really??
unbelievable.

way to answer a question with a question, there.
I guess you really do have nothing constructive to say.

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 01:24
Oh noes! Someone on da IntarWebz thinks I'm no good! Whatever am I going to do?

You're so cute when you have no real answers.

a bus driver???
i ''lol'ed'' hard!

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 01:25
way to answer a question with a question, there.
I guess you really do have nothing constructive to say.

and you do have something constructive to say??
well i never knew continuous complaining was constructive. thanks for that insight.

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 01:33
and you do have something constructive to say??
well i never knew continuous complaining was constructive. thanks for that insight.

please back that up by quotes.
where have I just "complained" without providing an alternative?

and I don't mean the thread that talk about the sad state of modern hgaming, I mean a thread dedicated to discussing a gameplay mechanic where I "moaned" and "complained" without providing an alternative suggestion.

I honestly don't think you are just a troll, but we appear to have a radically different taste, and we find ourselves disagreeing. while no one here denies your right to say what you want, you seem adamant that everyone that doesn't agree with you should die a slow and agonizing death. that alone makes it difficult to carry on a conversation with you in a civilized matter.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 01:35
a bus driver???
i ''lol'ed'' hard!

That's what I do right now. I'm not ashamed. I like my job. I'm proud to say that I am good at it.

There's no below-the-belt attack that you can muster that is going to make me think you're better than me. In fact, everything you've said has convinced me that you're one of those sad people who, when they come up short (which you did really quickly here, I must say), start lashing out at whatever they can find. If anything, I pity you. It can't be easy to be so intellectually challenged.

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 01:37
That's what I do right now. I'm not ashamed. I like my job. I'm proud to say that I am good at it.

There's no below-the-belt attack that you can muster that is going to make me think you're better than me. In fact, everything you've said has convinced me that you're one of those sad people who, when they come up short (which you did really quickly here, I must say), start lashing out at whatever they can find. If anything, I pity you. It can't be easy to be so intellectually challenged.

i dont really mind what you think.
i know i am better then you and have financially already accomplished much more then you.

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 01:41
i dont really mind what you think.
i know i am better then you and have financially already accomplished much more then you.

I fail to see how that makes your opinion on video game design any more valid than anyone in els on this forum.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 01:44
i dont really mind what you think.
i know i am better then you and have financially already accomplished much more then you.

You only know what I'm doing right now.

And if you're so accomplished, then why are you so insecure?

Anyway, this is futile.

Mods: feel free to remove any part of this discussion you see fit. You can start with my posts. I got sucked into this little troll's low-brow argument, and I'm not proud of that.

deus ex
5th Jul 2010, 01:45
I fail to see how that makes your opinion on video game design any more valid than anyone in els on this forum.

it doesnt, i am just letting him know that in society i am his superior.
i have accomplished more then him
i own more then him
i earn more then him
i am younger then him
i am his superior economically and i am letting him know these facts.

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 01:50
and he should care because.....?


dude, seriously, it's like it's your first day on the internet.

MaxxQ1
5th Jul 2010, 01:52
This message is hidden because deus ex is on your ignore list.

Speak up! I can't hear you.













:D

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 01:54
it doesnt, i am just letting him know that in society i am his superior.
i have accomplished more then him
i own more then him
i earn more then him
i am younger then him
i am his superior economically and i am letting him know these facts.

Since you can't carry an actual debate and resort to such bull**** tactics it seems that you're the intellectual inferior of a bus driver. Congrats. Bus drivers are smarter than you.

Uh... no offense Fluffis.

beastrn
5th Jul 2010, 01:54
What a surprise - the people that defend 3rd person cover, health regeneration, one button kill animations, missing deus ex music and console controllers ALSO DEFEND ACHIEVEMENTS.

CASE

CLOSED.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 02:00
Since you can't carry an actual debate and resort to such bull**** tactics it seems that you're the intellectual inferior of a bus driver. Congrats. Bus drivers are smarter than you.

Uh... no offense Fluffis.

None taken. We have three former University professors and two former psychiatrists working at the company (that I know of). The intellectual level of some (actually quite a few) bus drivers is far higher than a lot of people think.

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 02:02
None taken. We have three former University professors and two former psychiatrists working at the company (that I know of). The intellectual level of some (actually quite a few) bus drivers is far higher than a lot of people think.

don't get me started on who can end up being a truck driver in this country.. :rolleye:

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 02:09
don't get me started on who can end up being a truck driver in this country.. :rolleye:

A guy who worked at the company that cleaned in my old dorm was a neurosurgeon (sic!). In all fairness, he was just waiting for the opportunity to become one here in Sweden as well, but still. Just because the guy came from a country that is considered "Third World".

jtr7
5th Jul 2010, 02:10
If anybody adds achievements and trophies, it better not be EM, since they should be working on making a bug-free DX:HR instead.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 02:20
If anybody adds achievements and trophies, it better not be EM, since they should be working on making a bug-free DX:HR instead.

Good call, jtr7. We really got off track there.

Yeah, I think they may have some other things to worry about first. Achievements should be one of the last things added in, if they're doing it themselves, and the game better be as bug-free as is possible, without the stress test of actual gamers, before that. (It's nigh-impossible to get a game, of any greater complexity, completely bug free at launch.)

Tverdyj
5th Jul 2010, 02:21
they can add achievements later if they want, same as Ion Storm added multiplayer with a patch.

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 02:23
they can add achievements later if they want, same as Ion Storm added multiplayer with a patch.

Aren't they mandatory?

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 02:32
Aren't they mandatory?

I just checked it out, and it seems they are. On both 360 and PS3.
Huh. Odd. A mandatory e-peen contest.

Corpus
5th Jul 2010, 02:36
Their not game breaking in the slightest and they don't affect gameplay. You guys are just complaining about anything now. Heck what next, you all gonna think they ruin immersion because they pop up on screen?

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 02:41
Their not game breaking in the slightest and they don't affect gameplay. You guys are just complaining about anything now. Heck what next, you all gonna think they ruin immersion because they pop up on screen?

If they're confined to the consoles, I've got no problem with it at all. Let 'em choke on them, for all I care.

If they turn up on the PC version, however... I'm already seeing too many, IMHO, concessions made with consoles in mind. Make no mistake: most of the things that people complain about here, are things that make a game "consolized". Deus Ex has always stood as a sort of bastion of what PC gaming is all about. I can accept these things in a lot of other games, but DX has such a special place in the history of PC gaming, that anyone trying to consolize it (see IW) is playing with fire.

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 02:54
I just checked it out, and it seems they are. On both 360 and PS3.
Huh. Odd. A mandatory e-peen contest.

They started on Xbox and turned out super successful, and then PS3 made trophies mandatory to catch up. Anyways achievements are also a major part of Steam, which can also be seen as a bastion fo PC gaming (considering the frequent sales on old games)

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 02:58
They started on Xbox and turned out super successful, and then PS3 made trophies mandatory to catch up. Anyways achievements are also a major part of Steam, which can also be seen as a bastion fo PC gaming (considering the frequent sales on old games)

Yeah, but you're not forced to buy games on Steam. There's Direct2Drive, for instance... Or you can just run out and buy or order a "hardcopy".

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 03:01
Yeah, but you're not forced to buy games on Steam. There's Direct2Drive, for instance... Or you can just run out and buy or order a "hardcopy".

Just saying. Plenty of people who have Steam for HL or TF2 and have never heard of DE might be bored and want a cheap thrill, so they pick up DE for $9.99. Little do they know the cheap thrill is a trap, before you know it they'll be worn out and bitter about DEHR like everyone else.

Fluffis
5th Jul 2010, 03:06
Just saying. Plenty of people who have Steam for HL or TF2 and have never heard of DE might be bored and want a cheap thrill, so they pick up DE for $9.99. Little do they know the cheap thrill is a trap, before you know it they'll be worn out and bitter about DEHR like everyone else.

:lol: Fair enough.

MaxxQ1
5th Jul 2010, 04:47
Just saying. Plenty of people who have Steam for HL or TF2 and have never heard of DE might be bored and want a cheap thrill, so they pick up DE for $9.99. Little do they know the cheap thrill is a trap, before you know it they'll be worn out and bitter about DEHR like everyone else.

The first hit is (almost) free...





:D

II J0SePh X II
5th Jul 2010, 06:29
Added value - that's what achievements/trophies are. Virtually free to implement because it's just a little stat tracking ( which goes on anyway) they give us more reason to play the games we like and never impinge on a games development, story or gameplay.

On a personal level, gamerscore is how I score games in my collection. I have quite a few with just 5-20/1000. Farcry2, Fable2, Borderlands and Alan Wake fall into that range for me. I bought 'em, played 'em and just no-likey. Then there's those around the 500-600/1000. I like these ones, I've 'beat' the game and completed the story so all the story related achievements have been done, but I don't feel like I want to spend too much time playing them to get the more obscure achievements. Red Dead Redemption, Assassin's Creed and Modern Warfare 2 fall into that category. If I really love a game, and just want to play as much as possible I'll go for every damn chievo that I can. Mass Effect 2, Fallout 3 and GTA 4 are right up there, any excuse to play 'em and I'll take it.

I don't know where DE:HR will be in that gamerscore spectrum, but if it gets 10/1000 or 1000/1000 it won't be because of the achievements per se, more because of how I rated the game.

Angel-A
5th Jul 2010, 06:35
Trophies would make me cry. That's just not Deus Ex...

II J0SePh X II
5th Jul 2010, 07:43
Trophies would make me cry. That's just not Deus Ex...

Why? The first one didn't have them because they didn't exist - just like the PS3 didn't exist. How about HD? That's not Deus Ex, right?

Why would something that has no impact on the quality of the game make you cry?

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Jul 2010, 07:55
Dragon Age as I recall had pretty small pictures that faded after a second or two.


http://www.silentrage.co.uk/images/RageFace.png

Sorry, couldn't resist. Ashpolt will kill me, but I always find it...amusing when Dragon Age is brought up as what an RPG should aspire to be.

*Strokes Baldur's Gate box* Yes, my preeeeeeeeecious. Some day, we shall return, and we shall compel Bioware to make a proper sequel, yesssssss. What's that, precious? Yes, we shall make them make another Planescape, too. Gollum! Gollum!*






On Topic: Yeah, whatever, by all means put them in the console versions. Just don't try and shoe-horn them into the PC version (Looking at you, Empire and Napoleon Total War!) with ghastly Steam achievements.

Angel-A
5th Jul 2010, 08:01
Why? The first one didn't have them because they didn't exist - just like the PS3 didn't exist. How about HD? That's not Deus Ex, right?

Why would something that has no impact on the quality of the game make you cry?
...What?

Having trophies is just not Deus Ex-like. You didn't just play Deus Ex, you experienced it. It wasn't about how you won the game, you saw a story.
The idea of "You're winner"-esqe awards popping up when I finish is really, really awful.

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 08:24
http://www.silentrage.co.uk/images/RageFace.png

Sorry, couldn't resist. Ashpolt will kill me, but I always find it...amusing when Dragon Age is brought up as what an RPG should aspire to be.

*Strokes Baldur's Gate box* Yes, my preeeeeeeeecious. Some day, we shall return, and we shall compel Bioware to make a proper sequel, yesssssss. What's that, precious? Yes, we shall make them make another Planescape, too. Gollum! Gollum!*






On Topic: Yeah, whatever, by all means put them in the console versions. Just don't try and shoe-horn them into the PC version (Looking at you, Empire and Napoleon Total War!) with ghastly Steam achievements.

I'm not calling it the paragon of RPGs, but it is one of the better RPGs that has achievements.

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Jul 2010, 08:26
I'm not calling it the paragon of RPGs, but it is one of the better RPGs that has achievements.

Oh sure, I was only kidding man! I just like using the Rage pic. :flowers:

It's not ****, by any means. It just strikes me as by far the most cynical and complacent game Bioware ever produced. (Not that its by any means the first. Want Black Isle back NAO!) :nut:

Daedalus Ciarán
5th Jul 2010, 09:00
I don't understand achievements. Well, I do, but I don't. I mean, you don't get a page devoted to a congratulatory message from the author every fifty pages in a book. Nor does the film stop every 30 minutes so the directer can tell you how well you're doing watching the film. Why should games have them?

And yes achievements are mandatory, but there are no rules as to what should be rewarded in the game. EM could just stick in three achievements at the beginning of the game.

Hooray!: You just switched on the games - 50g
First Steps!: You used the controller! - 500g
We're Done With This Stupid Thing!: Achievements are utterly retarded, enjoy this work of gaming art! - 1,000g

Ashpolt
5th Jul 2010, 09:06
Why? The first one didn't have them because they didn't exist - just like the PS3 didn't exist. How about HD? That's not Deus Ex, right?

:lol: Oh, console gamers! :lol: We, the glorious PC gaming master race, have been playing in HD since before anyone thought to call it HD. We had resolutions that would now be considered HD back when Deus Ex came out, if not before. And by modern monitor standards, 1080p isn't exactly anything to boast about anymore anyway. :P


Sorry, couldn't resist. Ashpolt will kill me, but I always find it...amusing when Dragon Age is brought up as what an RPG should aspire to be.

No death for you today! I don't have a big history with CRPGs, so I enjoyed Dragon Age in the same way that a lot of people on here (mentioning no names...) think DXHR looks awesome. I fully understand that compared to the older Bioware RPGs it was over-simplified, but on the other hand, compared to other games that came out last year it was the shining example of depth. Dirty water to a thirsty man, etc.

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 09:24
I don't understand achievements. Well, I do, but I don't. I mean, you don't get a page devoted to a congratulatory message from the author every fifty pages in a book. Nor does the film stop every 30 minutes so the directer can tell you how well you're doing watching the film. Why should games have them?

And yes achievements are mandatory, but there are no rules as to what should be rewarded in the game. EM could just stick in three achievements at the beginning of the game.

Hooray!: You just switched on the games - 50g
First Steps!: You used the controller! - 500g
We're Done With This Stupid Thing!: Achievements are utterly retarded, enjoy this work of gaming art! - 1,000g

I quite enjoyed HL2's One Bullet Allowed and Carry the Gnome Achievements.

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 09:30
Oh sure, I was only kidding man! I just like using the Rage pic. :flowers:

It's not ****, by any means. It just strikes me as by far the most cynical and complacent game Bioware ever produced. (Not that its by any means the first. Want Black Isle back NAO!) :nut:

Also in my neverending quest to praise Dragon Age, consider that unlike The Witcher, BG, Icewind Dale, Planescape, NWN, KOTOR, etc. etc. with Dragon Age (and Mass Effect) Bioware had to go out and create their own IP, lore, backstory, races, etc. which takes a lot of effort, and it turned at pretty well. I guess I've played too much DnD but Ferelden was a breath of fresh, bleak, rainy, crumpet and tea-filled English air

once_more
5th Jul 2010, 09:50
Why? The first one didn't have them because they didn't exist - just like the PS3 didn't exist. How about HD? That's not Deus Ex, right?

Why would something that has no impact on the quality of the game make you cry?

the rage generated by users who read your post must be astronomical. if we could capture and store it, future generations would build a monument in your honour.

Serendip1ty
5th Jul 2010, 11:35
You have two types of achievements: based on overall story progression & based on stat tracking following your every move in the game.

You may think they are pointless & that you don't need to be reminded you actually wasted all of your time when the "no life achievement" pops up but arguing about their value is also pretty much wasting time that could be spent in more creative ways since they will inevitably be in the game.

Pinky_Powers
5th Jul 2010, 11:50
I see Achievements as one of those silly little things that is fun for some people and helps sales in a marginal way. There's really no reason to begrudge developers of something so small and insignificant.

ikenstein
5th Jul 2010, 12:20
What a surprise - the people that defend 3rd person cover, health regeneration, one button kill animations, missing deus ex music and console controllers ALSO DEFEND ACHIEVEMENTS.

CASE

CLOSED.

He he! A couple of months ago I made the mistake of buying star trek online. Boy, it sucked. The gameplay mechanics were just wrong for the game. But whenever anyone said anything they got shouted down on the forums by a bunch of brainless fanbois. Haven't been back there for a while, but when I last logged in the game was empty. I guess that game is dying fast.

It's pretty much the same with all games. You try to point out the inherent flaws in the game's design, which are completely obvious to everyone but the fanbois. But you then get a bunch of agressive 13 yos screaming at you.

Also, with this game I got the impression that the management culture was one of forcing through their decisions over the objections of everyone. I realised this just after the management had a random brainstorming session and as a result decided to force health regen into the game.

Everone knew it was a bad idea. Everyone. This forum was up in arms. I pretty sure anyone who played the orginal DX could see right away how this takes away from the superb mechanics of the original game. But the decision was forced through anyway. Same with pretty much all the other decisions. They seem like the random, unrefined results of a brainstorming session forced through by incompetent, bullying managers.

I'm predicting a standard format for this game. Maybe 15 pretty linear levels. The plot will be all explained in baby language in the cut-scenes. There will be a couple of obvious 'secret areas' that will flash 'secret area up on the screen when you find them. A bunch of flashy explosions and cheap special effects to make up for the game's lack of substance and voila.

IGN will give 10/10 thanks to their revenues from DX's huge advertising campain.

Pretentious Old Man.
5th Jul 2010, 12:35
He he! A couple of months ago I made the mistake of buying star trek online. Boy, it sucked. The gameplay mechanics were just wrong for the game. But whenever anyone said anything they got shouted down on the forums by a bunch of brainless fanbois. Haven't been back there for a while, but when I last logged in the game was empty. I guess that game is dying fast.

It's pretty much the same with all games. You try to point out the inherent flaws in the game's design, which are completely obvious to everyone but the fanbois. But you then get a bunch of agressive 13 yos screaming at you.

Also, with this game I got the impression that the management culture was one of forcing through their decisions over the objections of everyone. I realised this just after the management had a random brainstorming session and as a result decided to force health regen into the game.

Everone knew it was a bad idea. Everyone. This forum was up in arms. I pretty sure anyone who played the orginal DX could see right away how this takes away from the superb mechanics of the original game. But the decision was forced through anyway. Same with pretty much all the other decisions. They seem like the random, unrefined results of a brainstorming session forced through by incompetent, bullying managers.

I'm predicting a standard format for this game. Maybe 15 pretty linear levels. The plot will be all explained in baby language in the cut-scenes. There will be a couple of obvious 'secret areas' that will flash 'secret area up on the screen when you find them. A bunch of flashy explosions and cheap special effects to make up for the game's lack of substance and voila.

IGN will give 10/10 thanks to their revenues from DX's huge advertising campain.

May I remind everyone what happened with another Eidos game, Kane and Lynch? Someone (methinks Gamespot) tried to give it a low score, and Eidos had it suppressed. All hail the Death's Head Eidostaffel.

MaxxQ1
5th Jul 2010, 16:35
:lol: Oh, console gamers! :lol: We, the glorious PC gaming master race, have been playing in HD since before anyone thought to call it HD. We had resolutions that would now be considered HD back when Deus Ex came out, if not before. And by modern monitor standards, 1080p isn't exactly anything to boast about anymore anyway. :P

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hdtv.png

xsamitt
5th Jul 2010, 16:40
If they're confined to the consoles, I've got no problem with it at all. Let 'em choke on them, for all I care.

If they turn up on the PC version, however... I'm already seeing too many, IMHO, concessions made with consoles in mind. Make no mistake: most of the things that people complain about here, are things that make a game "consolized". Deus Ex has always stood as a sort of bastion of what PC gaming is all about. I can accept these things in a lot of other games, but DX has such a special place in the history of PC gaming, that anyone trying to consolize it (see IW) is playing with fire.


Makes sense to me.DX very nature is to be on it's own terms.J.C didn't follow trends,he set them.

pringlepower
5th Jul 2010, 19:42
Makes sense to me.DX very nature is to be on it's own terms.J.C didn't follow trends,he set them.

Who needs emotions anyways?

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Jul 2010, 00:14
Makes sense to me.DX very nature is to be on it's own terms.J.C didn't follow trends,he set them.

No, trends followed J.C. Denton.

Desperate? Your turn...

Dead-Eye
6th Jul 2010, 01:19
There should be an achievement for playing the original Deus Ex all the way.

Fluffis
6th Jul 2010, 02:59
There should be an achievement for playing the original Deus Ex all the way.

There is. It's called "I know what I'm talking about". ;)

hem dazon 90
6th Jul 2010, 05:34
I don't get achievements but they don't really subtract anything from the game . Hell some achievements add some replay value (if done correctly)

pringlepower
6th Jul 2010, 06:08
I don't get achievements but they don't really subtract anything from the game . Hell some achievements add some replay value (if done correctly)

Space gnome!

hem dazon 90
6th Jul 2010, 06:50
Space gnome!


That is an achievement done right

beastrn
6th Jul 2010, 07:20
Achivements do take away from the game because they substitute story/character/sense of belonging/exploration for a gimmicky doggie treat.

Instead of thinking "Oh awesome I found this hidden silenced pistol behind a bush and got 20xp for it, I wonder if anyone else will find this hidden part of the game world", you think

"Oh awesome plus one secret area - 49 more for the achievement"

Achievements should stay with dull/action/popcorn gaming because including them with (attempted) immersive games sabotages much of the experience. Especially when you realize that these achievements don't just magically appear - they're coded into the game specifically which means the devs have gone through meetings and debates to make these stupid things - which means you can bet your sweet bibby that there won't be any emergent or personal little gameplay nuances that you might discover by yourself otherwise there'd be an achievement for it. Just another sacrifice that's ruining gaming.

Pinky_Powers
6th Jul 2010, 13:06
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/hdtv.png

Funny comic, but not very discerning. No monitor resolution in existence will sharpen video quality. HD video is what's refreshing, not screen resolution.

Ashpolt
6th Jul 2010, 13:49
Funny comic, but not very discerning. No monitor resolution in existence will sharpen video quality. HD video is what's refreshing, not screen resolution.

My turn to jump in with the "context" card, Pinky. :P That was posted in response to my post, which was a response to II JOseph X II's post about Deus Ex not being in HD. PC games, as they're able to be rendered at variable resolutions on the fly, do look better (or at least, can look better) simply by virtue of better hardware. Deus Ex at 1680 x 1050 is a much nicer looking game than at 800 x 600, which is what I originally played it at. :P

Also, in terms of the comic mocking people who don't know much about technology, it's apt in the very way you discuss: I know loads of people who swear by their HDTVs, even though they're only running an SD signal. My parents, for instance, don't have a single device (barring their PC) capable of outputting in an HD resolution, but still had to get an HDTV. Yes, they're wrong to think it looks better: but it doesn't stop them doing so.

singularity
6th Jul 2010, 20:23
...What?

Having trophies is just not Deus Ex-like. You didn't just play Deus Ex, you experienced it. It wasn't about how you won the game, you saw a story.
The idea of "You're winner"-esqe awards popping up when I finish is really, really awful.

Don't play a lot of console games, eh?

True, there are a lot of games where trophies do just that -- they add to your gamer score just by completing a game, but I have seen quite a lot that are legitimately challenging and force players to play the game in a way not previously considered.

Lets be honest here -- DX is a DEAD franchise and most of the people that play DXHR will have no idea that 2.5 games preceeded it. Many of them won't even think about the prospect of going through the game without killing unless they see the achievement and it piques their interest (i.e. like Mirror's Edge). And what about something crazy like killing 10 enemies with a single LAM (Left 4 Dead)? Going through the game without ever opening up the game menu or using a flashlight (F.E.A.R.)? Killing every single NPC in a given area with only a knife (Hitman)? Beating the game on hard mode without ever dying (Bioshock)? Some achievements inspire creative thinking and require you to play in ways you might not normally. For this simple possibility, I say DXHR NEEDS achievements (and besides, they are required to have them on 360 and PS3, so get over it)

Also -- look at it (again) from a developer's stand point (something everyone here seems to have huge issues with). Achievements are trackable, which means the devs can see how many people played the game, but never finished it. Can see how many players finished the game stealthily and how many decided to run and gun (so long as there are achievements for them). How many people started hard mode, but never finished it. They can see how long it took someone to get the "complete first level" achievement and "complete last level" achievement and get an idea on how long it takes people to complete the game (a week, a month, a year?). How many people choose a particular ending? How many people have all the "pistol" achievements, but not the rifle ones? Is it because the rifles suck?

No one seems to get it -- achievements aren't just "Good job! Gold star!" They are an easy, effecient and reliable way for a game maker/ publisher to get very valuable feedback on their game, so they can do a better job next time, on top of being ways for developers to throw in nudges for players to explore and experiment in the world they created. End of story.

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Jul 2010, 20:34
No one seems to get it -- achievements aren't just "Good job! Gold star!" They are an easy, effecient and reliable way for a game maker/ publisher to get very valuable feedback on their game, so they can do a better job next time, on top of being ways for developers to throw in nudges for players to explore and experiment in the world they created. End of story.

Playing devil's advocate.

Let's say 2 million people buy the game. Let's say 1 million fail to beat the game. They might not have liked it, they may have got bored, they may have bought something else. Not everyone can stick 20 hours on the same campaign.

What conclusion do they draw? OMG, over half our purchasing base didn't beat the game! We must now simplify it! And so next release, they make Call of Duty: Cyberpunk Warfare.

That would probably lead to more sales, but would hardly be a great scenario for us as gamers. Also, on this point, you say elsewhere words to the effect that "why does no-one think from a developer standpoint". Well, that's like saying why do trade union bosses not think from the boss's standpoint: because that's the boss's job. Think of it as two sides with conflicting interests (I wander from achievements now). If gamers only gave thought from a dev perspective, people like Bob Kotick would run riot. You may not have *rights* as a consumer as such, but that does not mean if you have a grievance you should not voice it, because "it'll make the devs job harder". We've all got hard jobs too, y'know.

hem dazon 90
6th Jul 2010, 20:36
Call of Duty: Cyberpunk Warfare. .

Not for nothing, but done right that would be pretty bad ass

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Jul 2010, 20:47
Not for nothing, but done right that would be pretty bad ass

No wai! :rasp:

singularity
6th Jul 2010, 20:51
Playing devil's advocate.

Let's say 2 million people buy the game. Let's say 1 million fail to beat the game. They might not have liked it, they may have got bored, they may have bought something else. Not everyone can stick 20 hours on the same campaign.

What conclusion do they draw? OMG, over half our purchasing base didn't beat the game! We must now simplify it! And so next release, they make Call of Duty: Cyberpunk Warfare.

That would probably lead to more sales, but would hardly be a great scenario for us as gamers. Also, on this point, you say elsewhere words to the effect that "why does no-one think from a developer standpoint". Well, that's like saying why do trade union bosses not think from the boss's standpoint: because that's the boss's job. Think of it as two sides with conflicting interests (I wander from achievements now). If gamers only gave thought from a dev perspective, people like Bob Kotick would run riot. You may not have *rights* as a consumer as such, but that does not mean if you have a grievance you should not voice it, because "it'll make the devs job harder". We've all got hard jobs too, y'know.

I definitely see your point, and it is a good one.
But you can see how many people rented your game and how many bought it. Then you take those numbers and dice it up. You can do the same with other games in similar genres, etc and you can start to get an idea on what people who liked DXHR "like" about your game. Nothing hurts more as a dev to see that you sold a million copies of your title, but only 7% of all buyers finished your game.

As for the no one thinking like a creater, only as a player, again -- I understand your view and once again, you bring up a great point (and a debate that will rage through eternity). But I see it as a bunch of racing fans who get upset and yell everytime their favorite car has to go in for a pit stop and loses a position because of it. If you don't understand what is going on under the hood or through the driver's head, then you aren't getting the full picture, and don't have the ability to make much of a valid arguement.
People are bashing things like achievements or 3rd person cover (ok -- the 3rd person arguement is a little more valid, but that's another story) without understanding why these decisions were made or even having any insight as to what it means to make a large project like DXHR.

I log on daily and see a bunch of "old school" gamers who whine about the changes made to DX (and a ton of other games), and it's the same feeling I get walking into the classroom and hearing students rip apart a political stance without any idea of the true pros and cons to it. People are neglecting an entire fascet of this game, and simply blindly demanding everything they want. They are the real reason the gaming industry is making changes for the worse.

Edit: Call of Duty: Cyberpunk Warfare might be something I could actually get into...:)

hem dazon 90
6th Jul 2010, 20:52
No wai! :rasp:

Ya weh!

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/usa/images-3/god.jpg

Pinky_Powers
6th Jul 2010, 20:59
My turn to jump in with the "context" card, Pinky. :P That was posted in response to my post, which was a response to II JOseph X II's post about Deus Ex not being in HD. PC games, as they're able to be rendered at variable resolutions on the fly, do look better (or at least, can look better) simply by virtue of better hardware. Deus Ex at 1680 x 1050 is a much nicer looking game than at 800 x 600, which is what I originally played it at. :P

Also, in terms of the comic mocking people who don't know much about technology, it's apt in the very way you discuss: I know loads of people who swear by their HDTVs, even though they're only running an SD signal. My parents, for instance, don't have a single device (barring their PC) capable of outputting in an HD resolution, but still had to get an HDTV. Yes, they're wrong to think it looks better: but it doesn't stop them doing so.

Context is for losers! :D

Either way, I wasn't concerned with Max for posting the comic, I just wanted to make an observation about the comic itself... even though, I'm sure whoever created it isn't here on these forums.

Of course PC users have enjoyed "HD" (and better) gaming for years and years now. What do you take me for, some kind of... moron??!

:eek:

Pretentious Old Man.
6th Jul 2010, 21:07
I definitely see your point, and it is a good one.
But you can see how many people rented your game and how many bought it. Then you take those numbers and dice it up. You can do the same with other games in similar genres, etc and you can start to get an idea on what people who liked DXHR "like" about your game. Nothing hurts more as a dev to see that you sold a million copies of your title, but only 7% of all buyers finished your game.

As for the no one thinking like a creater, only as a player, again -- I understand your view and once again, you bring up a great point (and a debate that will rage through eternity). But I see it as a bunch of racing fans who get upset and yell everytime their favorite car has to go in for a pit stop and loses a position because of it. If you don't understand what is going on under the hood or through the driver's head, then you aren't getting the full picture, and don't have the ability to make much of a valid arguement.
People are bashing things like achievements or 3rd person cover (ok -- the 3rd person arguement is a little more valid, but that's another story) without understanding why these decisions were made or even having any insight as to what it means to make a large project like DXHR.

I log on daily and see a bunch of "old school" gamers who whine about the changes made to DX (and a ton of other games), and it's the same feeling I get walking into the classroom and hearing students rip apart a political stance without any idea of the true pros and cons to it. People are neglecting an entire fascet of this game, and simply blindly demanding everything they want. They are the real reason the gaming industry is making changes for the worse.

Edit: Call of Duty: Cyberpunk Warfare might be something I could actually get into...:)

You also make a great point. I think I slightly mis-spoke when I said "developers". I was actually thinking more in publishing terms, although the two concomitantly inter-relate. There is, as always, a line to draw. If we as players started saying things like "why not use models with 2 million polygons and textures of 12MB"? without thinking or realising that not everyone has the hardware punch, then yeah, the dev team are right. However, when thinking in terms more akin to core ideology/business model, it only makes sense to oppose an LCD approach to gaming, especially if it comes from non-gaming idiots like the aforementioned Kotick.

As usual, everything in moderationl. Alas, most publishers and developers have brought such concepts as "epic setpieces" and "streamlined gameplay" into such unbiquity that they have broken this balance. I agree that we should not strive to return to the days of no RPG being welcome if it doesn't use AD&D rules, but variety in the industry is rapidly being curtailed.

Ilves
6th Jul 2010, 21:13
Trophies as a ways to track player behavior; I never thought of it in that light.



People are neglecting an entire fascet of this game, and simply blindly demanding everything they want. They are the real reason the gaming industry is making changes for the worse.


I'd get all worked up over this baseless statement, but I'm in too good a mood right now to make a fuss about it. http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/4.gif

IOOI
6th Jul 2010, 21:41
Space gnome!

If VALVe had designed a trunk on the Muscle Car that achievement (and the whole game) would've been a bit more interesting. Imagine carrying rollermines and weapons in the trunk.

ThePrecursor
6th Jul 2010, 21:48
I always liked trophies as they actually feel kinda rewarding and, like singularity said, challenge you to play the game in a certain way.

Plus I love it when devs make creative names for the trophies: Killing a large quantity of enemies with the crossbow could result in the achievement "The Nail In The Coffin" for example.

Irate_Iguana
7th Jul 2010, 08:09
You can do the same with other games in similar genres, etc and you can start to get an idea on what people who liked DXHR "like" about your game.

You can't. All you can see is how people have played the game. You can't get motivation from this kind of data. All it gives is raw gameplay statistics. Just because people fire 1500 rounds from the assault rifle for every plasma bolt doesn't mean that people enjoy the assault rifle more than the plasma rifle. It could also mean that you gave them too little plasma bolts. Numbers alone are rubbish.



If you don't understand what is going on under the hood or through the driver's head, then you aren't getting the full picture, and don't have the ability to make much of a valid arguement.

First of all it isn't our job to think like a developer. It is only our job to think like gamers who may or may not purchase this game depending on the information we receive. All we need to do is make our minds up at the end of the day and decide whether or not we want to spend out money based on what we think the game will be. The grand strategy behind the development is not our concern. Whether or not the game is good is.

Secondly, whose fault is it if we know nothing about why certain decisions were made? Who is supposed to give this information? It certainly isn't the fans. When we do make certain predictions based on what little circumstantial evidence we have it generally tends to be true.



I log on daily and see a bunch of "old school" gamers who whine about the changes made to DX (and a ton of other games), and it's the same feeling I get walking into the classroom and hearing students rip apart a political stance without any idea of the true pros and cons to it. People are neglecting an entire fascet of this game, and simply blindly demanding everything they want. They are the real reason the gaming industry is making changes for the worse.

That's just rich. Sure, compare the people who don't praise everything to whining children. Let's certainly not say anything about people coming in here and praising everything to high heaven on blind faith alone. It's easy to hate on the haters. Let's not make an effort to see why they actual make those comments.

People come here with concerns about the game, voice them and more often than not (at least before the influx after the last cinematic trailer) make good arguments about why they feel that way. What do we get in return? Complete and utter silence from the people making this game. From the other forumites who like this game we get almost no constructive feedback. Comments generally follow the line of "you haven't seen the game", "you haven't played the game", "you have to trust the developers because they said it would be good", "be thankful that they are making a new installment" or my personal favorite "the industry as a whole has grown up".

pringlepower
7th Jul 2010, 08:11
" or my personal favorite "the industry as a whole has grown up".

You don't like "go **** yourself and just don't play the game"? That's fun.

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 08:13
You can't. All you can see is how people have played the game. You can't get motivation from this kind of data. All it gives is raw gameplay statistics. Just because people fire 1500 rounds from the assault rifle for every plasma bolt doesn't mean that people enjoy the assault rifle more than the plasma rifle. It could also mean that you gave them too little plasma bolts. Numbers alone are rubbish.


True. As we all know, 80% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

You need context to make numbers mean anything. Otherwise they could mean anything. Just like those sentences.

Irate_Iguana
7th Jul 2010, 08:21
You don't like "go **** yourself and just don't play the game"? That's fun.

That's mindless hating. That is much less fun than trying to apologize for someone else.

VastShadowz41
7th Jul 2010, 17:03
Of all the achievements 90% will be ones that you are going to achieve simply by going through the game. There are a select few games that actually feature achievements that take something special to gain. TF2 comes to mind. Half Life also had a decent one or two.

My proudest Xbox achievement was on the Orange Box, The One Free Bullet, where you had to go through Episode 1using only one bullet (and that was to shoot the padlock off the closed area you dropped in to get your first guns for the episode). You couldn't use any other weapons other than rockets, grenades, the gravity gun, or the crowbar.

Maybe they'll be one for a pacifist, non-lethal runthrough.

PenguinsFriend
7th Jul 2010, 17:09
What kind of achievements do you guys want to see in Human Revolution? I think it would be cool to see ones that were unlocked by specific choices you make that change the course of the game. Meaning it would take multiple playthroughs to unlock them all.

I hate you

Pinky_Powers
7th Jul 2010, 19:58
My proudest Xbox achievement was on the Orange Box, The One Free Bullet, where you had to go through Episode 1using only one bullet (and that was to shoot the padlock off the closed area you dropped in to get your first guns for the episode). You couldn't use any other weapons other than rockets, grenades, the gravity gun, or the crowbar.

Valve does everything right. :D

Thirdeyeop3n
7th Jul 2010, 19:58
I hate you

You hate me because I am someone who finds achievements fun? Nobody is telling you how to play the game at all by adding achievements.

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 20:04
Nobody is telling you how to play the game at all by adding achievements.

Actually, in a way, they are. If you play it through and don't get any achievements, they have effectively told you that you did it "wrong".

Pinky_Powers
7th Jul 2010, 20:09
You hate me because I am someone who finds achievements fun? Nobody is telling you how to play the game at all by adding achievements.

He hates you because your name reminds him of his long-lost codpiece. The thing could be used as a laser-pointer, and a piercing melody came from its summit.

Romeo
7th Jul 2010, 20:10
Actually, in a way, they are. If you play it through and don't get any achievements, they have effectively told you that you did it "wrong".
No - they haven't.

I have only gotten all achievements in I think three games: NFS, because as long as you beat the single player you have everything, ME, because I played it to death, and ME2, for the same reason.

Honestly, if you're so fixated on that number, then you deserve to play the game as they dictate, you obviously can't think for yourself. As he said, nothing about the game is forcing you to collect achievements. Can't think of a single game where I couldn't get to the last level because I didn't have enough achievements...

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 20:54
No - they haven't.

I have only gotten all achievements in I think three games: NFS, because as long as you beat the single player you have everything, ME, because I played it to death, and ME2, for the same reason.

Honestly, if you're so fixated on that number, then you deserve to play the game as they dictate, you obviously can't think for yourself. As he said, nothing about the game is forcing you to collect achievements. Can't think of a single game where I couldn't get to the last level because I didn't have enough achievements...

I didn't say "all". I said "any". As in "at all".
And I'm one of the people that are against achievements, in case you missed it.

Ilves
7th Jul 2010, 20:58
[...] nothing about the game is forcing you to collect achievements.

There's something about an unfilled percentage gauge that drives me nuts. That's one reason rhight there I consider trophies a source of frustration rather than fun. :nut:

Pinky_Powers
7th Jul 2010, 21:26
I would love to be informed that I had just gained the Achievement for manipulating a corpse to the pinnacle of a player-made pyramid of stacked boxes.

pringlepower
7th Jul 2010, 21:28
Actually, in a way, they are. If you play it through and don't get any achievements, they have effectively told you that you did it "wrong".

Since when have we cared what the developers think is right or wrong.

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 21:29
I would love to be informed that I had just gained the Achievement for manipulating a corpse to the pinnacle of a player-made pyramid of stacked boxes.

Alright, that one I would actually also want. :)

KSingh77
7th Jul 2010, 21:54
Achievement:

Pick up glass without cracking it(10p)

Get into the club without punching the douch bouncer(20p)

Punch the bouncer in the face(30p)

Find the new Xbox 360 by searching every box in the game(50p)

Romeo
7th Jul 2010, 21:57
I didn't say "all". I said "any". As in "at all".
And I'm one of the people that are against achievements, in case you missed it.
Oh, I know where you stand, I'm just saying I disagree. There is NOTHING about achievements that are mandatory for you to enjoy the game. If you don't like them, they arn't relevent. If you do like them, it adds something to the game for you. There is literally no downside.

There's something about an unfilled percentage gauge that drives me nuts. That's one reason rhight there I consider trophies a source of frustration rather than fun. :nut:
See, I just don't care about my gamerscore. At all.

I mean, don't get me wrong, a couple games achievements inspire you to do something you may not have thought of before - such as juggling a car using explosives for seven seconds (Crackdown) or playing through a dark game without ever using your flashlight (F.E.A.R.). But all in all, I've never come across a game where I was compelled to play exclusively, or even at all, for the achievements. I'd say all but maybe five of my achievements have been gained from doing something without even knowing it was an achievement.

FrankCSIS
7th Jul 2010, 22:28
There is literally no downside.

Depends on what the achievments are, really. I mean, let's try to imagine what they would have been like in DX, and how it could affect the game.

If you get things like "master hacker" or "NSF killer" trophies, that's all fine and dandy. There is no effect, outside of this little trophy which appears on your screen for a few seconds.

Some achievements are stastitcs-based, though, and reveal parts of the plot unintentionally. I really don't want to know that I've found 34 out of 52 hidden areas, or that I've collected 3 out of 5 special items. Knowing in advance what to look forward to is a major turn off for me, as is the reminder that the game is not infinite in all its aspect. Of course I know that realistically the game is finite, but I don't want to hear about it while I play. It just destroys the world you work so hard to get immersed into, in the real sense of the word immersion. I know many here like to say this is a subjective experience, but details like this act on your mind, whether you realise it or not. The illusion of a world which exists outside of what you see through the narrative is a major part of the experience, be it in movies, books, songs or games, and knowing that you've discovered for sure everything there is to it affects this illusion.

So I guess it really depends on how it's made, but don't be so quick to say there are no effects whatsoever to them.

As for the idea that it actually serves as yet another marketing toy, I shiver at the very thought. This means that if all studios compile similar stats, they will continuously optimise their games until we reach an absolute hegemony, and this thought terifies me.

Pinky_Powers
7th Jul 2010, 22:38
and this thought terifies me.

Ghosts, and large Finnish women with swollen ankles terrify me.

Ilves
7th Jul 2010, 22:41
Ghosts, and large Finnish women with swollen ankles terrify me.

Where did that come from? http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/18.gif

FrankCSIS
7th Jul 2010, 22:44
I think seeing the ghost of a large Finnish woman would shatter the mind to a trauma beyond repair.

In fact, there must be a chapter on this in the Necronomicon.

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 23:14
Oh, I know where you stand, I'm just saying I disagree. There is NOTHING about achievements that are mandatory for you to enjoy the game.


"Of course we're not forcing you... You just won't get any dessert if you play that way." ;)



If you don't like them, they arn't relevent. If you do like them, it adds something to the game for you. There is literally no downside.


But if you do like them, you have to play the game a certain way to get them. It's not exactly "forcing" (I did write "in a way"), but it's "restricting" by dangling a carrot in front of you.

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 23:15
I think seeing the ghost of a large Finnish woman would shatter the mind to a trauma beyond repair.

In fact, there must be a chapter on this in the Necronomicon.

There was supposed to be, but Abdul Alhazred got so spooked he left it out.

Ilves
7th Jul 2010, 23:25
Hmmm, being a Finnish woman (of modest proportions! http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/9.gif) I somehow feel obliged to be offended. But the thought of Pinky on a nightly graveyard getting spooked by a huge middle aged Finnish lady just cracks me up.

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 23:29
Hmmm, being a Finnish woman (of modest proportions! http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/9.gif) I somehow feel obliged to be offended. But the thought of Pinky on a nightly graveyard getting spooked by a huge middle aged Finnish lady just cracks me up.

Ei millään pahalla (that's right, isn't it? "No offense"? I haven't tried my hand at Finnish for decades.)

But as a Swede I'm kind of obliged to poke fun at you, so I, for one, at least have sort of an excuse. :whistle:

Ilves
7th Jul 2010, 23:32
Sorry for not retorting in fluent Swedish... Growing up in Holland has witheld the blessings of Finnish education from me. Man, I'm already on my toes with all the russkies around here, but I don't think they're onto me yet... Sshhh...

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 23:34
Sorry for not retorting in fluent Swedish... Growing up in Holland has witheld the blessings of Finnish education from me. Man, I'm already on my toes with all the russkies around here, but I don't think they're onto me yet... Sshhh...

Sinun salaisuus on turvassa kanssani. (That was Google Translate. ;) )

Ilves
7th Jul 2010, 23:48
Sinun salaisuus on turvassa kanssani. (That was Google Translate. ;) )

For your information I just called the mods on your butt for spewing such lewd immoralities.










http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/5.gif

TrickyVein
7th Jul 2010, 23:49
Get a room, you two!

Fluffis
7th Jul 2010, 23:58
For your information I just called the mods on your butt for spewing such lewd immoralities.


Hehe.

http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/21.gif


Get a room, you two!

Don't worry. We'll stop before the steam fogs up the whole board.


... or will we...?

hem dazon 90
8th Jul 2010, 00:10
Hehe.

http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/21.gif



Don't worry. We'll stop before the steam fogs up the whole board.


... or will we...?

*grabs camera and stealth suit*

nathanj
8th Jul 2010, 01:44
if its released on steam it will probably have some achievements.

achievement in general are retarded and i dont get people who obsess over them. Kaching.......i finished the tutorial. Kaching.........i killed 10 enemies. Kaching........i killed 100 enemies. Kaching........i killed someone with out any weapons. Kaching.......i killed someone in stealth mod. Kaching i used all my augs. Kaching.........i talked to 10 people. Kaching.........insert stupid action here. its just stupid and annoying and especially on pc versions its stupid cause you can literally give yourself achievements with save game editors.

for mass effect 2 i can give myself completion on insane mode without changing the difficulty and not dying once. now if that isnt worthy of an achievement i dont know what is. of course it only takes a couple of clicks in the editor to do that. :)

KSingh77
8th Jul 2010, 03:04
Tip a sleeping employee's chair over before the raid(20p)

pringlepower
8th Jul 2010, 03:41
Well now that the SC2 Beta is back (woooo) and comes with new achievements, I come with the point that good achievements can challenge the player, or encourage them to try new things.

E.g., for SCII there's kill 40 units with a single unit, regenerate 500 shields on a single unit w/o friendly fire, etc.

If well implemented DXHR achievements could be challenging or hint towards different playstyles (of course there will be people against that idea, since they don't want to be spoiled)

Senka
8th Jul 2010, 05:22
Achievements would ruin it.

hem dazon 90
8th Jul 2010, 05:52
Achievements would ruin it.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h309/vampiric_alchemist/Deep_thinker_cat.jpg
please elaborate

Romeo
8th Jul 2010, 06:53
Depends on what the achievments are, really. I mean, let's try to imagine what they would have been like in DX, and how it could affect the game.

If you get things like "master hacker" or "NSF killer" trophies, that's all fine and dandy. There is no effect, outside of this little trophy which appears on your screen for a few seconds.

Some achievements are stastitcs-based, though, and reveal parts of the plot unintentionally. I really don't want to know that I've found 34 out of 52 hidden areas, or that I've collected 3 out of 5 special items. Knowing in advance what to look forward to is a major turn off for me, as is the reminder that the game is not infinite in all its aspect. Of course I know that realistically the game is finite, but I don't want to hear about it while I play. It just destroys the world you work so hard to get immersed into, in the real sense of the word immersion. I know many here like to say this is a subjective experience, but details like this act on your mind, whether you realise it or not. The illusion of a world which exists outside of what you see through the narrative is a major part of the experience, be it in movies, books, songs or games, and knowing that you've discovered for sure everything there is to it affects this illusion.

So I guess it really depends on how it's made, but don't be so quick to say there are no effects whatsoever to them.

As for the idea that it actually serves as yet another marketing toy, I shiver at the very thought. This means that if all studios compile similar stats, they will continuously optimise their games until we reach an absolute hegemony, and this thought terifies me.
Achievements pertaining to plot are either intentionally vague in title and description, or are made "Secret", which means the title and description simply say: SECRET: Unlock this achievement to read it's description.

Pinky_Powers
8th Jul 2010, 12:29
Hmmm, being a Finnish woman (of modest proportions! http://media.ign.com/boardfaces/9.gif) I somehow feel obliged to be offended. But the thought of Pinky on a nightly graveyard getting spooked by a huge middle aged Finnish lady just cracks me up.

You are at the very core of my fear and torment.

http://paulwilkinson.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/scared-kids-1.jpg

Pinky_Powers
8th Jul 2010, 12:35
Achievements would ruin it.

Indeed. Yet another little, innocent thing has ruined the game. What a shame... I was really looking forward to it, too.

*huge, exaggerated eye-roll*

Romeo
9th Jul 2010, 01:27
Indeed. Yet another little, innocent thing has ruined the game. What a shame... I was really looking forward to it, too.

*huge, exaggerated eye-roll*
LOL!

Yes, I still fail to see how achievements even could manage to negatively affect this game. If you don't like them, then you needn't worry about them (As I do) or if you do like them then they provide something else to look forward to. And like I said, they don't reveal plot information 99.9999% of the time (If they do it's the devellopers fault for not making plot-related achievements secret).

Isterio
9th Jul 2010, 01:34
I would rather see the developers spending time for something useful. I prefer 1 or 2 more side-quests or something. I don't need this "feature".

Thirdeyeop3n
9th Jul 2010, 01:41
I would rather see the developers spending time for something useful. I prefer 1 or 2 more side-quests or something. I don't need this "feature".

Implementing achievements doesn't seem like it would take near the amount of time it would to add "1 or 2 more side-quests or something." Achievements are mandatory for the xbox and PS3 versions anyway.

jtr7
9th Jul 2010, 01:42
I remember when pop-up ads were really annoying and rude and distracting and blocked what people wanted to see, and then pop-up blockers were made to make surfing the 'Net more tolerable and more time-efficient again. Now games have pop-ups and people love 'em. Me, I still see something on the screen I care nothing for, care not for the distraction, immersion-breaking, etc.


Is this one of those "optional features" that can be toggled off, then? Is this one of those things that has zero impact on how the devs and playtesters spend their time, so there's less excuse for bugs and glitches and mistakes?

beastrn
9th Jul 2010, 05:04
LOL!

Yes, I still fail to see how achievements even could manage to negatively affect this game. If you don't like them, then you needn't worry about them (As I do) or if you do like them then they provide something else to look forward to. And like I said, they don't reveal plot information 99.9999% of the time (If they do it's the devellopers fault for not making plot-related achievements secret).

Achivements do take away from the game because they substitute story/character/sense of belonging/exploration for a gimmicky doggie treat.

Instead of thinking "Oh awesome I found this hidden silenced pistol behind a bush and got 20xp for it, I wonder if anyone else will find this hidden part of the game world", you think

"Oh awesome plus one secret area - 49 more for the achievement"

Achievements should stay with dull/action/popcorn gaming because including them with (attempted) immersive games sabotages much of the experience. Especially when you realize that these achievements don't just magically appear - they're coded into the game specifically which means the devs have gone through meetings and debates to make these stupid things - which means you can bet your sweet bibby that there won't be any emergent or personal little gameplay nuances that you might discover by yourself otherwise there'd be an achievement for it. Just another sacrifice that's ruining gaming.

Irate_Iguana
9th Jul 2010, 08:26
And like I said, they don't reveal plot information 99.9999% of the time (If they do it's the devellopers fault for not making plot-related achievements secret).

If they want achievements to actually mean something these plot-related achievements need to go. Going through the game and getting an achievement for it is stupid. It doesn't encourage people to explore the gameplay in news ways. If you want to finish the game (presumably the goal of the gamer) then why would you need some pop-up telling you that you can go to the next area? Give me more "Space Gnome" achievements and less "Press Forward To Move" achievements.

ThePrecursor
9th Jul 2010, 10:49
The people with consoles at home are going to get achievements/trophies anyway. I think they add to the experience.

Romeo
9th Jul 2010, 14:00
Achivements do take away from the game because they substitute story/character/sense of belonging/exploration for a gimmicky doggie treat.

Instead of thinking "Oh awesome I found this hidden silenced pistol behind a bush and got 20xp for it, I wonder if anyone else will find this hidden part of the game world", you think

"Oh awesome plus one secret area - 49 more for the achievement"

Achievements should stay with dull/action/popcorn gaming because including them with (attempted) immersive games sabotages much of the experience. Especially when you realize that these achievements don't just magically appear - they're coded into the game specifically which means the devs have gone through meetings and debates to make these stupid things - which means you can bet your sweet bibby that there won't be any emergent or personal little gameplay nuances that you might discover by yourself otherwise there'd be an achievement for it. Just another sacrifice that's ruining gaming.
Now, I don't know about you, but I ended up exploring in Deus Ex despite it not having achievements, so somehow I think your argument is a touch shallow. And even with achievements, I'm still going to be pretty damn excited if I get a "hidden silenced pistol" (speaking of doggie treats...) not because I could get some generic post, but because I have the damn pistol.

If they want achievements to actually mean something these plot-related achievements need to go. Going through the game and getting an achievement for it is stupid. It doesn't encourage people to explore the gameplay in news ways. If you want to finish the game (presumably the goal of the gamer) then why would you need some pop-up telling you that you can go to the next area? Give me more "Space Gnome" achievements and less "Press Forward To Move" achievements.
Well, I wouldn't mind seeing a bit of a mix then myself. I'm going to play the game however I feel like playing it, so I guess I don't really warrant a vote on how they'll be implemented. lol

Fluffis
9th Jul 2010, 15:20
Now, I don't know about you, but I ended up exploring in Deus Ex despite it not having achievements, so somehow I think your argument is a touch shallow. And even with achievements, I'm still going to be pretty damn excited if I get a "hidden silenced pistol" (speaking of doggie treats...) not because I could get some generic post, but because I have the damn pistol.


I think that may sort of have been the point. Isn't it enough to actually accomplish something? Is there really a need for some e-peen contest as well?

Pinky_Powers
9th Jul 2010, 17:30
I think that may sort of have been the point. Isn't it enough to actually accomplish something? Is there really a need for some e-peen contest as well?

I don't see how that could possibly be the point.

1. You have people who will play the game however they want, regardless of what Achievements there are.
2. You have people and industry standards that demand Achievements.

These two factors work simultaneously together.

Fluffis
9th Jul 2010, 18:12
I don't see how that could possibly be the point.

1. You have people who will play the game however they want, regardless of what Achievements there are.
2. You have people and industry standards that demand Achievements.

These two factors work simultaneously together.

Of course, but they are also redundant together.

Edit: let me explain. You know that you have done something. It's right there in the game. This is a single player game. Why is an achievement necessary?

Pinky_Powers
9th Jul 2010, 18:17
Of course, but they are also redundant together.

That's not even close to being true.

Faction one gets what they want and is unaffected by Achievements.
Faction two gets what they want and enjoys Achievements.

There is nothing redundant in that philosophy.

Fluffis
9th Jul 2010, 18:30
That's not even close to being true.

Faction one gets what they want and is unaffected by Achievements.
Faction two gets what they want and enjoys Achievements.

There is nothing redundant in that philosophy.

But you're approaching this from the perspective of one who enjoys Achievements. I'm approaching it from the perspective of someone who doesn't. I see an Achievement, when I know I have managed to do something, the Achievement is annoying, because it is telling me things I already know. I don't need it, so I don't want it. I know what I have done, which means the Achievement is redundant. ("You managed to beat the game!"... No ****, Sherlock)

The only real reason for Achievements is to compare them online (e-peen measuring). This is supposed to be a single player game, where finding out for yourself is a big thing. (I.E. getting things explained with a pointer aimed at them, is a no-no, and as long as you know something, it's supposed to be enough.)

I know I can't stop it, same as with all the other "Cool™", consolish things. I'll just have to hope that adding things like this doesn't come in the way of constructing a great game. If the game turns out to be perfect, I'll learn to live with them. If it isn't... well...

jjc
9th Jul 2010, 18:47
Does anybody know why achievements are required, if indeed they are? Every game I've played on 360, which admittedly isn't many, has included them. But I fail to see why someone (Sony? Microsoft?) would demand a game include achievements. Do they feel there are potential purchasers who would forego buying a game simply because it didn't have them? What possible drawbacks are there to not including achievements and why isn't it up to the developer to decide whether or not to include them?

Pretentious Old Man.
9th Jul 2010, 18:53
Yet another

Yes, alright, I am a facetious ****. The irony was just too delicious to resist, though.

Pinky_Powers
9th Jul 2010, 19:06
But you're approaching this from the perspective of one who enjoys Achievements.

Actually, I tend to ride the fence on this matter. In some sense, I fall squarely into Faction One. I will play a game the way I want to play it. I will never strive to reach an Achievement.

On the other hand, I've been known to smile when I do something weird and game tells me I Achieved something.

99% of the time I don't give a $h1t. But there are those who love Achievements, and I say let them have it. I'm an adult and it doesn't hurt me any.

Pinky_Powers
9th Jul 2010, 19:08
Yes, alright, I am a facetious ****. The irony was just too delicious to resist, though.

"yet another innocent..."

Fluffis
9th Jul 2010, 19:42
Actually, I tend to ride the fence on this matter. In some sense, I fall squarely into Faction One. I will play a game the way I want to play it. I will never strive to reach an Achievement.

On the other hand, I've been known to smile when I do something weird and game tells me I Achieved something.

99% of the time I don't give a $h1t. But there are those who love Achievements, and I say let them have it. I'm an adult and it doesn't hurt me any.

If it was just Achievements by themselves, I wouldn't care much myself. It's just getting a bit thick.

Pretentious Old Man.
9th Jul 2010, 21:39
"yet another innocent..."

You just ruined the mojo there, pal.

Romeo
9th Jul 2010, 22:36
But you're approaching this from the perspective of one who enjoys Achievements. I'm approaching it from the perspective of someone who doesn't. I see an Achievement, when I know I have managed to do something, the Achievement is annoying, because it is telling me things I already know. I don't need it, so I don't want it. I know what I have done, which means the Achievement is redundant. ("You managed to beat the game!"... No ****, Sherlock)

The only real reason for Achievements is to compare them online (e-peen measuring). This is supposed to be a single player game, where finding out for yourself is a big thing. (I.E. getting things explained with a pointer aimed at them, is a no-no, and as long as you know something, it's supposed to be enough.)

I know I can't stop it, same as with all the other "Cool™", consolish things. I'll just have to hope that adding things like this doesn't come in the way of constructing a great game. If the game turns out to be perfect, I'll learn to live with them. If it isn't... well...
I'm someone who doesn't enjoy them, and yet I have absolutely no problem at all with their presence in game.

Does anybody know why achievements are required, if indeed they are? Every game I've played on 360, which admittedly isn't many, has included them. But I fail to see why someone (Sony? Microsoft?) would demand a game include achievements. Do they feel there are potential purchasers who would forego buying a game simply because it didn't have them? What possible drawbacks are there to not including achievements and why isn't it up to the developer to decide whether or not to include them?
It's mandatory that they be in, and follow certain guidelines.

I don't know about Sony, but Microsoft has a very strict set of rules for every game coming out to the 360 regarding achievements:

1) Base game always has 1000 Gamerscore. DLC-packs may add up to 250 in between ALL downloads for a game (So if there's five small content packs of 20GS, then they can add up to 150GS on the next DLC before they can no longer add achievements).

2) Base game always has between 5 and 50 achievements (With corresponding values allocated to achievements and whatnot).

3) Achievements must be worth a minimum of 1 GS up to a maximum of 200 GS.

4) ALL achievements must be gainable by any player at any time, and must not necessitate downloads to achieve (For the original 1000). Achievements for playing before June 2009, for example, would not be allowed. However, Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter had an achievement worth one point for getting to the top of the leaderboards online. Technically, it was completely legal as anyone could achieve first place.

5) Achievements for Xbox Live arcade games have a 250 point total, and may range between 4 and 20 individual achievements. DLC rules are identical (Meaning one could technically double the gamerscore of their game by releasing it, and then releasing a content pack directly after).

5)

Irate_Iguana
9th Jul 2010, 22:38
Does anybody know why achievements are required, if indeed they are? Every game I've played on 360, which admittedly isn't many, has included them. But I fail to see why someone (Sony? Microsoft?) would demand a game include achievements. Do they feel there are potential purchasers who would forego buying a game simply because it didn't have them? What possible drawbacks are there to not including achievements and why isn't it up to the developer to decide whether or not to include them?

Best I can figure it was made mandatory by Microsoft in order for them to push Xbox Live. By including the achievements the gamers had something to show on Live. I guess the achievements contribute in a way to a steady amount of subscriber.

Fluffis
9th Jul 2010, 23:34
I'm someone who doesn't enjoy them, and yet I have absolutely no problem at all with their presence in game.


Hey, that's Kool and the Gang. I'm just trying to get my opinion across. :)

pringlepower
9th Jul 2010, 23:37
Best I can figure it was made mandatory by Microsoft in order for them to push Xbox Live. By including the achievements the gamers had something to show on Live. I guess the achievements contribute in a way to a steady amount of subscriber.

It worked.

Senka
10th Jul 2010, 00:38
please elaborate

Massive IMMURSHUN breaker. Imagine sneaking into a enemy compound, getting into a good sniping position, you pick your target.. Bang! *Sudden guitar riff* ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!

Unobtrusive achievements would probably be ok, as long as they never distracted you or appeared during gameplay..

Fluffis
10th Jul 2010, 00:45
Massive IMMURSHUN breaker. Imagine sneaking into a enemy compound, getting into a good sniping position, you pick your target.. Bang! *Sudden guitar riff* ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!


:lol: That's even worse than I'd thought.

Pinky_Powers
10th Jul 2010, 00:53
Massive IMMURSHUN breaker. Imagine sneaking into a enemy compound, getting into a good sniping position, you pick your target.. Bang! *Sudden guitar riff* ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!

Unobtrusive achievements would probably be ok, as long as they never distracted you or appeared during gameplay..

lol. How about a massive line of text in 3D, spinning slowly across the screen saying "LOOK AT YOU GO!"

TrickyVein
10th Jul 2010, 01:53
I'd want a naked lady to walk across the screen holding my achievement up in the air above her head.

pringlepower
10th Jul 2010, 02:14
lol. How about a massive line of text in 3D, spinning slowly across the screen saying "LOOK AT YOU GO!"

Barrett's giant head appears: "Atta boy!"

Romeo
10th Jul 2010, 03:10
Hey, that's Kool and the Gang. I'm just trying to get my opinion across. :)
No no, I understand, I'm just saying I have a little experience with them first hand. They arn't that bad, they only happen every now and then, and I just ignore them.

Massive IMMURSHUN breaker. Imagine sneaking into a enemy compound, getting into a good sniping position, you pick your target.. Bang! *Sudden guitar riff* ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!

Unobtrusive achievements would probably be ok, as long as they never distracted you or appeared during gameplay..
They make a quiet little "Doo de Doo" sound, and a small message appears, in the exact same way as if one of your friends sends you a message on msn (Assuming you have your xbox on msn) or if one of your xbox live friends signs in. Like I said, it's phenominally easy to ignore, and I honestly don't notice it. This is besides the fact I've never seen one happen at a time that is immersion breaking, they almost always happen during loading screens. Heck, even online shooters typically wait for the match to end before they alert you.

PenguinsFriend
12th Jul 2010, 16:01
No no, I understand, I'm just saying I have a little experience with them first hand. They arn't that bad, they only happen every now and then, and I just ignore them.

They make a quiet little "Doo de Doo" sound, and a small message appears, in the exact same way as if one of your friends sends you a message on msn (Assuming you have your xbox on msn) or if one of your xbox live friends signs in. Like I said, it's phenominally easy to ignore, and I honestly don't notice it. This is besides the fact I've never seen one happen at a time that is immersion breaking, they almost always happen during loading screens. Heck, even online shooters typically wait for the match to end before they alert you.

Play Fallout 3 - the achievements are annoyning and immersion breaking. I'm not sure how they wouold have done the leveling any better - but the whole - found 100 locations etc trophies are down right game breaking.

singularity
13th Jul 2010, 01:28
You can't. All you can see is how people have played the game. You can't get motivation from this kind of data. All it gives is raw gameplay statistics. Just because people fire 1500 rounds from the assault rifle for every plasma bolt doesn't mean that people enjoy the assault rifle more than the plasma rifle. It could also mean that you gave them too little plasma bolts. Numbers alone are rubbish.

Numbers alone are far from rubbish. They provide the first building blocks to understand more about how your audience played your game. While making a game, you design areas that you hope your audience will see, you record dialogue you hope they will hear. You create gameplay that you hope they will experience. You have play-testers run through every nook and crany of your game, and give you valuable feed back. And then you set it free. These raw numbers give you an idea of what your "audience" saw. What they heard. What did you create that they actually experienced?



First of all it isn't our job to think like a developer. It is only our job to think like gamers who may or may not purchase this game depending on the information we receive. All we need to do is make our minds up at the end of the day and decide whether or not we want to spend out money based on what we think the game will be. The grand strategy behind the development is not our concern. Whether or not the game is good is.

Secondly, whose fault is it if we know nothing about why certain decisions were made? Who is supposed to give this information? It certainly isn't the fans. When we do make certain predictions based on what little circumstantial evidence we have it generally tends to be true .

You're absolutely right. As a DX player and (potential) consumer, it is simply your job to... well... consume. Or reject. If you want to hop on to a public area and start to make claims, form arguements, express concerns, and try and generate thoughtful conversation, however, I'd recomend you acquire knowledge required to do so, otherwise you'll just start to sound like another whiny fan to those of us who do have a little bit of experience in this area.

And it isn't the developer's job to educate you. Their job is create something for all those DX player and consumers to consume. It's your job to educate yourself.



That's just rich. Sure, compare the people who don't praise everything to whining children. Let's certainly not say anything about people coming in here and praising everything to high heaven on blind faith alone. It's easy to hate on the haters. Let's not make an effort to see why they actual make those comments.

People come here with concerns about the game, voice them and more often than not (at least before the influx after the last cinematic trailer) make good arguments about why they feel that way. What do we get in return? Complete and utter silence from the people making this game. From the other forumites who like this game we get almost no constructive feedback. Comments generally follow the line of "you haven't seen the game", "you haven't played the game", "you have to trust the developers because they said it would be good", "be thankful that they are making a new installment" or my personal favorite "the industry as a whole has grown up".

You're right -- it is rich. And I'll be the first to say that those who come here and simply praise everything obviously have not had much experience in the tendencies of the gaming industry as of late. Many of them are either too young or too inexperienced with interactive entertainment in general to form a basic criticisim, which is why they don't criticize.

However, even more rich are those who have nothing positive to say about the game at all. I'll admit, I have my own complaints, and a list of worries regarding the game as a whole, but most of these "good arguements" you keep rattling on about are hardly arguements, let alone "good", and most of them are made by people who, once again, have not taken the time or effort necessary to understand what is happening or why. They simply see something like "3rd person cover" -- realize it isn't in DX1, or any other game they list as "great" and call for it to be removed. The handful of people trying to make arguments (i.e. Third person cover completely dictates all level design and thus, should be removed because we hate "knee high walls") don't have the slightest clue what they're talking about. So yes -- I compare a great deal of them to "whiny children" -- or in reference to my original post, political science students who mean well, but don't take the time to fully understand a particular stance on a subject.

Romeo
13th Jul 2010, 06:27
Play Fallout 3 - the achievements are annoyning and immersion breaking. I'm not sure how they wouold have done the leveling any better - but the whole - found 100 locations etc trophies are down right game breaking.
Oh, I bought Fallout 3 for the computer (And was actually mad at myself when it didn't ship with a mod kit. lol) not the Xbox. But I know for games like Mass Effect, for example, say you beat the game, you wont be notified during the end scene, it will wait until the end credits. Forza 3 waits for you to finish your race (Which is great, because Forza 2 didn't and it really buggered you up hearing that beep-boop right before a corner). Most of the games I've been playing have managed to not screw up, so I have hope that Deus Ex will also wait for load-screens/opportune moments.

jtr7
13th Jul 2010, 07:07
Not only do you get a sense of accomplishment, but pats on the back, and public gloating, and praise, and knowing you did something unusual (that the devs already guessed people would do), and badges, and medals, and... and... All without actually having friends over to share the fun with. It just seems desperate and childish in a bad way and makes the game itself seem unfulfilling if getting through each stage isn't rewarding enough, experimenting isn't enough, the experience isn't enough, feeling like you were the first to do something isn't enough, and it seems really really gamey and non-immersing, all while people are asking for more realism. "You did good!" "High-five!" And it's important enough to have people take the time building it in, rather than fixing and preventing bugs? I don't feel that need.

Irate_Iguana
13th Jul 2010, 08:25
These raw numbers give you an idea of what your "audience" saw. What they heard. What did you create that they actually experienced?

That tells you nothing. Without context you don't know why they missed that content. If the reason you are collecting information is to draw some conclusion you need to find out the reasons for those numbers. It is no good just to see that 0.1% of the people talked to Fred more than once. If you want them to talk to Fred all the time you need to know why he wasn't talked to more. Just reading that people didn't talk to him doesn't give you ideas on how to make them want to talk to Fred.



I'd recomend you acquire knowledge required to do so, otherwise you'll just start to sound like another whiny fan to those of us who do have a little bit of experience in this area.

Don't pull this "you are not a developer you don't know" crap. Just because they work at the game doesn't mean that they have all the answers or that all of their decisions are the correct ones. Working at a project and in a certain direction can easily blind you to other possibilities. Especially in a game that is being designed by a marketing committee with a certain goal in mind.

Secondly, just because we might not have experience in the business doesn't mean that any and all of our observations and suggestions are invalid. I know nothing about building a car, but I have been riding cars for a while. I can say that if the accelerator pedal doesn't function and the shifter randomly comes loose that the car is complete ****. We all have experience playing games. We can judge and form our opinions based on that. There might be a perfectly good reason for the shifter to come loose but that doesn't make it any less of a problem for the driver.



And it isn't the developer's job to educate you. Their job is create something for all those DX player and consumers to consume. It's your job to educate yourself.

You are right, it isn't the dev's job to educate us. It is the job of the marketing department to do so. And they are failing in a spectacular manner in that regard.




The handful of people trying to make arguments (i.e. Third person cover completely dictates all level design and thus, should be removed because we hate "knee high walls") don't have the slightest clue what they're talking about.

So people with practical experience about what has happened in each and every game featuring this gameplay feature have no idea what they are talking about? Even when it was clearly visible in the trailer in the warehouse level? People who say "you can see way too much of the level in 3rd person giving you an unfair advantage" don't know what they saw? Most of us have been playing games for a pretty long time. We've got experience with damn near everything that is being introduced in this game. Based on games in the past (even those claiming to revolutionize the feature) we can make pretty accurate predictions. Hell, a lot of those were even confirmed in the leaked gameplay trailer.

The arguments against things like HR, 3rd person and the takedowns went beyond your simplification of "I don't like it, remove it." I agree that there have been a shedload of those in the last few months, but both sides of the equation seem to have been going down the drain lately.

Keep in mind that this isn't brain surgery or rocket science. People know what they like to play and what they don't like to play. Just because the devs might be able to explain why they made things a certain way doesn't mean that the feature will suddenly be good.

Romeo
14th Jul 2010, 02:58
Not only do you get a sense of accomplishment, but pats on the back, and public gloating, and praise, and knowing you did something unusual (that the devs already guessed people would do), and badges, and medals, and... and... All without actually having friends over to share the fun with. It just seems desperate and childish in a bad way and makes the game itself seem unfulfilling if getting through each stage isn't rewarding enough, experimenting isn't enough, the experience isn't enough, feeling like you were the first to do something isn't enough, and it seems really really gamey and non-immersing, all while people are asking for more realism. "You did good!" "High-five!" And it's important enough to have people take the time building it in, rather than fixing and preventing bugs? I don't feel that need.
I have to disagree with you here. Talking to friends about achievements is no different than chatting to your friends about, say, how you managed to get the whole way through the game without killing. And I have to say, watching my younger brother on Crackdown 2 today, I think I'm starting to see potential in achievements. For example, I watched him angle himself in such a manner that he harpooned five people to his vehicle. This would be something I would have never thought to do, but in amazement the game itself was his inspiration, and sure enough, he got an achievement for it.

Now I understand not every game seems like it's made for achievements, Deus Ex being a pristine example, but if they're done in a unobtrusive way, I can't see any problem with them at all. In many people's words, they already have their own rewards for exploration and doing things differently, so I fail to see what the issue is.

PenguinsFriend
14th Jul 2010, 19:16
I have to disagree with you here. Talking to friends about achievements is no different than chatting to your friends about, say, how you managed to get the whole way through the game without killing. And I have to say, watching my younger brother on Crackdown 2 today, I think I'm starting to see potential in achievements. For example, I watched him angle himself in such a manner that he harpooned five people to his vehicle. This would be something I would have never thought to do, but in amazement the game itself was his inspiration, and sure enough, he got an achievement for it.

Congratulations! You've just completed the "respond more than three times in the same thread to the same poster" achievement!


Now I understand not every game seems like it's made for achievements, Deus Ex being a pristine example, but if they're done in a unobtrusive way, You've earned a trophy! I can't see any problem with them at all. In many people's words, they already have their own rewards for exploration and doing things differently, so I fail to see what Go check out your trophy the issue is.

Fixed ;)

Pretentious Old Man.
14th Jul 2010, 20:03
Fixed ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdZC5LJswFE

WildcatPhoenix
14th Jul 2010, 20:09
Barrett's giant head appears: "Atta boy!"

Or how about:

"Ya dun' good, boy scout!"

Ashpolt
14th Jul 2010, 20:14
Or D'Astous' head:

"You are SO GREENLIGHT!"

Pretentious Old Man.
14th Jul 2010, 20:19
ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED

15G-

"Well, basically, you basically actually did what we expected by basically listening on that conversation, actually. For this, we're basically gonna actually reward you, basically".

PenguinsFriend
14th Jul 2010, 20:56
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdzc5ljswfe

ftw!

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 00:58
Fixed ;)
Wow, intelligent rebuttle. I see how you adressed each of my points and responded accordingly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdZC5LJswFE
My god that was an amazing RvB. I love Caboose's achievements. "BLEEP BLOOP: YES IT IS". lol

Pinky_Powers
15th Jul 2010, 04:21
I've always believed in my heart of hearts that Caboose was a sun-dried god.

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 07:59
I've always believed in my heart of hearts that Caboose was a sun-dried god.
You know that part in the bible about the guy sacrificing his kid for god? Little known fact - it's actually referring to Caboose: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VliQVB5T6mI

Pinky_Powers
15th Jul 2010, 16:30
You know that part in the bible about the guy sacrificing his kid for god? Little known fact - it's actually referring to Caboose: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VliQVB5T6mI

OOooo, there's an old one for ya!

I quote on a semi-regular basis one of Caboose's lines when he was slowly being taken over by O'mally for the first time.

*deep and evil voice*
Don't ever. Be. Alone.

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 18:26
Everything he says is utterly brilliant.

-SARGE. A SLEEPING PERSON.
-He ain't sleeping son, he's dead.
-Oh, good. Because at first, I thought he was me, because I am blue, and, I like to sleep. But if he is dead, he cannot be me. That would be silly.

beastrn
15th Jul 2010, 18:38
Please stop talking about RvB - you're slowly ruining it for me. I already pretend it's not popular and dumb people don't understand why it's good - please don't make it worse. :(

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 18:42
Please stop talking about RvB - you're slowly ruining it for me. I already pretend it's not popular and dumb people don't understand why it's good - please don't make it worse. :(
You have no idea how little I care about what you want. So on that happy note, everyone, feel free to continue discussing it!

Pinky_Powers
15th Jul 2010, 18:49
You have no idea how little I care about what you want. So on that happy note, everyone, feel free to continue discussing it!

Why did you quote him??!!!!

I was much happier with this:


This message is hidden because beastrn is on your ignore list.

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 18:52
Why did you quote him??!!!!

I was much happier with this:
Bah, it's ok, the secret is to just not care about him. lol

Pinky_Powers
15th Jul 2010, 18:54
It's not a secret, it's a skill. And I don't have it. :hmm:

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 19:11
It's ok. When my patience runs out I have the ban hammer. Her name is Susie. =D

beastrn
15th Jul 2010, 19:19
Yeah! You've got the Power, man! If you've got it, flaunt it!

ps that's an RvB quote

PenguinsFriend
15th Jul 2010, 21:00
Wow, intelligent rebuttle. I see how you adressed each of my points and responded accordingly.

My god that was an amazing RvB. I love Caboose's achievements. "BLEEP BLOOP: YES IT IS". lol

Wha? Since when did I ever post anything intelligent or worth reading, Romeo? You know I only come in here for fun. I won't troll, but I do like to goof off :D

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 21:13
Wha? Since when did I ever post anything intelligent or worth reading, Romeo? You know I only come in here for fun. I won't troll, but I do like to goof off :D
Relax Penguin, I know you're not a jerk. It's just kind of annoying, because I see people in here making assessments and arguing, and yet, they have little to know first-hand experience. Like I said, I am not achievements greatest proponent, if they went away tomorrow, it'd probably take me weeks to notice they were gone, but people are making them out to be this great pariah that is going to rip the game apart, and I have to say, even in their worst implementation, I haven't seen them even come close to doing that.

WildcatPhoenix
15th Jul 2010, 21:16
Relax Penguin, I know you're not a jerk. It's just kind of annoying, because I see people in here making assessments and arguing, and yet, they have little to know first-hand experience. Like I said, I am not achievements greatest proponent, if they went away tomorrow, it'd probably take me weeks to notice they were gone, but people are making them out to be this great pariah that is going to rip the game apart, and I have to say, even in their worst implementation, I haven't seen them even come close to doing that.

If they don't intrude into the HUD like some games (such as Modern Warfare 2), I won't have a problem with them.

But if I'm sneaking up on some unsuspecting trooper, pull off an impressive kill, then suddenly see "Michael Myers!- Stab 15 guards!" pop up on my screen, there is going to be a BIG problem. :hmm:

Romeo
15th Jul 2010, 21:19
If they don't intrude into the HUD like some games (such as Modern Warfare 2), I won't have a problem with them.

But if I'm sneaking up on some unsuspecting trooper, pull off an impressive kill, then suddenly see "Michael Myers!- Stab 15 guards!" pop up on my screen, there is going to be a BIG problem. :hmm:
Well, like I said, I hope they do what Mass Effect and it's sequel did, which is just to let them go at either load screens or at the credits, because those will already break immersion, so I don't really care if an achievement "bleep bloop" goes off then (I recognize ME2 had two achievements that would go off in game. Still, over-all they were well done).

Pinky_Powers
16th Jul 2010, 03:22
They should make Achievements that ADD to the immersion.

Shoot a kid in the eyeball, and the special Logitech Genital Cuffs caress you tenderly.

Fluffis
16th Jul 2010, 03:26
They should make Achievements that ADD to the immersion.

Shoot a kid in the eyeball, and the special Logitech Genital Cuffs caress you tenderly.

And the Real Doll Anna Navarre does a seductive dance.

Romeo
16th Jul 2010, 04:09
LOL. Oh wow you two...

Something I REALLY liked about the achievements in Mass Effect was that they had a reason for those who don't care about achievements to like achievements (Hehe). Unlocking the achievements still got you the gamerscore and whatnot (Who cares, right?) but, more importantly, it unlocked some sort of bonus for in game. So, for example, getting the "rich" achievement (Attained a certain amount of credits. Can't remember how much) unlocked Spectre Gear, or playing through the majority of the game with a certain ally granted some sort of bonus to that ally. It was pretty nice. Granted, I can't imagine how that would be fairly implemented into a Deus Ex game.

pringlepower
16th Jul 2010, 04:35
Killing 150 enemies in a "Texan manner" gets you a minigun arm?

II J0SePh X II
16th Jul 2010, 06:04
I just got the "Vault-tec CEO" 'chieve in Fallout 3 and there was no bleep-bloop - no noise at all - just the message. I'm currently going for completion before New Vegas comes out (wouldn't bother if it wasn't such a great game) and I just need to do a bit of collecting from the DLCs before I embark on a neutral playthru and then an evil playthru (both to Lvl 30)

I only have one other 'complete' gamerscore, and that's Mass Effect 2 - again a game I really enjoy playing.

Romeo
16th Jul 2010, 08:31
I just got the "Vault-tec CEO" 'chieve in Fallout 3 and there was no bleep-bloop - no noise at all - just the message. I'm currently going for completion before New Vegas comes out (wouldn't bother if it wasn't such a great game) and I just need to do a bit of collecting from the DLCs before I embark on a neutral playthru and then an evil playthru (both to Lvl 30)

I only have one other 'complete' gamerscore, and that's Mass Effect 2 - again a game I really enjoy playing.
I've only ever maxxed on three games: Need for Speed: Most Wanted (It gave you EVERY achievement for completing the single player game), Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 (I have one achievement left from the DLC, I missed one of the information packs in the Overlord DLC).

PenguinsFriend
16th Jul 2010, 15:19
Relax Penguin, I know you're not a jerk. It's just kind of annoying, because I see people in here making assessments and arguing, and yet, they have little to know first-hand experience. Like I said, I am not achievements greatest proponent, if they went away tomorrow, it'd probably take me weeks to notice they were gone, but people are making them out to be this great pariah that is going to rip the game apart, and I have to say, even in their worst implementation, I haven't seen them even come close to doing that.

Well, I can be a jerk sometimes, but I do know it; I won't pretend I'm not :D

Fair point about the achievements. i can only base my experience on two games that I've played via my PS3; Fallout 3 and Madden Football.

In Madden I was able to disable the achievements so they didn't pop up at the end of the game. but even if I could not have, I guess it would be OK since they didn't pop up in the middle of a game, but waited until the game was over.

Fallout 3 has them popping up while the game is happening and frankly speaking, i hate it. If there were a way to turn it off I would. I don't have any "friends" that I want/need to brag about by showing meaningless boasts to online.

It just ruined the game for me to the point where i def. regret buying it. So frankly speaking, when I comment on the achievement messages, that's exactly where my "rage" is comming from - Fallout 3 and their game breaking (IMO) stupid little messages.

I would not want to see DE:HR do the same thing and if they do, then make it for PS#/Xbox and leave the PC version alone.

Pretentious Old Man.
16th Jul 2010, 15:28
"You just got Jensened"
"You are not a member of our augmented buddy club!"
"Don't ever. Be. Augmented."
"A bomb! Hey, Andy!"

Romeo
16th Jul 2010, 17:34
Well, I can be a jerk sometimes, but I do know it; I won't pretend I'm not :D

Fair point about the achievements. i can only base my experience on two games that I've played via my PS3; Fallout 3 and Madden Football.

In Madden I was able to disable the achievements so they didn't pop up at the end of the game. but even if I could not have, I guess it would be OK since they didn't pop up in the middle of a game, but waited until the game was over.

Fallout 3 has them popping up while the game is happening and frankly speaking, i hate it. If there were a way to turn it off I would. I don't have any "friends" that I want/need to brag about by showing meaningless boasts to online.

It just ruined the game for me to the point where i def. regret buying it. So frankly speaking, when I comment on the achievement messages, that's exactly where my "rage" is comming from - Fallout 3 and their game breaking (IMO) stupid little messages.

I would not want to see DE:HR do the same thing and if they do, then make it for PS#/Xbox and leave the PC version alone.
Oh, see that's odd, I would've expected better from Bethesda. Have only ever played Fallout 3 for the computer though, so I can't refute your claim. Just use it as an example of how NOT to do achievements. lol

"You just got Jensened"
"You are not a member of our augmented buddy club!"
"Don't ever. Be. Augmented."
"A bomb! Hey, Andy!"
I hated Andy. Yet strangely, loved Shiela and Lopoz.

DeusWhatever
16th Jul 2010, 18:58
A nice parody-Game on Achievements ^^
http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked

maybe the future of gaming ...

K^2
16th Jul 2010, 19:58
I got all of them. What do I get?

mrvwbug
16th Jul 2010, 22:19
Create an achievement that was possible with the first game. Play through the entire game without killing anyone (you could actually play through all of DX1 without killing anyone, it was very difficult but possible).

Another possible one that was doable in the fist game (but very difficult). Play through the entire game without using any guns, melee range weapons only.

DeusWhatever
16th Jul 2010, 23:46
Its kind of strange to think that there are people wasting their time by playing a game again with some handicap just to activate an implemented textfile.

How about a "You just wasted 40 hours to get a blinking text" achievement? ... :mad2:

@K^2
You just got 100 achievements, you won endless recognition in real life :worship:
(some1 told me that women like guys with high gamerscores)

pringlepower
16th Jul 2010, 23:58
Its kind of strange to think that there are people wasting their time by playing a game again with some handicap just to activate an implemented textfile.

How about a "You just wasted 40 hours to get a blinking text" achievement? ... :mad2:

@K^2
You just got 100 achievements, you won endless recognition in real life :worship:
(some1 told me that women like guys with high gamerscores)

Just like the douches who played Deus Ex again with only melee, or without murder, or only stealth, or by only using a chocolate bar for the challenge and self-satisfaction. What complete idiot console gamers!

DeusWhatever
17th Jul 2010, 00:09
Well but those do it for fun, but others do it just to enlarge their virtual genitals "aka Gamerscore" ... (there are even communities of ppl that exchange info about what games to buy to get a maximum of points...)

Fluffis
17th Jul 2010, 00:11
Just like the douches who played Deus Ex again with only melee, or without murder, or only stealth, or by only using a chocolate bar for the challenge and self-satisfaction. What complete idiot console gamers!

We don't do that to get some form of recognition. We do it to see if it can be done. The joy of experimentation and exploration. That's the difference. When we find something that we haven't found before, that's the only achievement that matters. With Achievements, a lot of people are going to do those things to see if there is an Achievement for it. We (the ones who tried everything in DX) did it because it looked like fun. Those other people are going to do it for the reward.

pringlepower
17th Jul 2010, 02:05
Well but those do it for fun, but others do it just to enlarge their virtual genitals "aka Gamerscore" ... (there are even communities of ppl that exchange info about what games to buy to get a maximum of points...)

Oh okay I misunderstood your point, sorry for sounding like a dick. It's just so much fun to sound like a dick on the internet.

Yeah those people suck, but most everyone I know either doesn't care for achievements (achievements just end up tracking the extra stuff they do anyways) or try to get them all for the challenge or for completion (e.g., win on hardest setting without dying once, etc.), which honestly isn't too different from wanting to beat DE on realistic or explore every nook and cranny, picking up every aug upgrade, etc. And if the achievements are really good, e.g., Orange Box, they're a lot of fun to do.

Anyways as for immersion breaking, you could see it as the character keeping tracks of stuff he/she has done, like making notches in a sword for kills.

There's my less sarcastic two cents.

Romeo
18th Jul 2010, 21:42
Just like the douches who played Deus Ex again with only melee, or without murder, or only stealth, or by only using a chocolate bar for the challenge and self-satisfaction. What complete idiot console gamers!
Hehe. I mean, NO, play nice. Okie dokie?

We don't do that to get some form of recognition. We do it to see if it can be done. The joy of experimentation and exploration. That's the difference. When we find something that we haven't found before, that's the only achievement that matters. With Achievements, a lot of people are going to do those things to see if there is an Achievement for it. We (the ones who tried everything in DX) did it because it looked like fun. Those other people are going to do it for the reward.
He has a point though. Everyone does crap like that because they can. If I do something bizarre in a game and I get a little message that the develloper thought of that, it doesn't diminish the experience, or mean I'm interested in some generic number. For people to assume otherwise is insulting, and reeks of elitism.

DeusWhatever
18th Jul 2010, 22:16
For people to assume otherwise is insulting, and reeks of elitism.

Maybe, but I think it's mainly about people of losing their hobbies. At least that's how I feel, I really enjoyed hard games, I even enjoyed reading big "books" like the falcon 4.0 manual. If I want to just waste time with shallow nonsense I turn on my TV. And for ppl like me gaming as a hobby seems to "die". And shure maybe this is elitism but its my hobbie and i think you will find this sort of "elitism" in any hobby. I know it seems unavoidable but still it sucks that those ppl that helped build up this market now get dumped for masses of casual-gamers. I know this is just logical since you can earn a lot of money now, but i always thought developing games was also about art and creating something special, but i guess i was wrong ... (i guess you could say that computergames now are pretty similar to movies, from art to hollywood crap ..)

And I don't know if any publishers, or developers read this forum, I really ask myself how those ppl can't see how flawed their strategy is. You are making games more expensive every year, the funny part is, the consumer hardly sees the difference, most seems to be used for hiring "big names" for Voice-Over, Music etc. but if I just look at the product, it's impossible to justify the increasing costs. (at least not in this magnitude)

Yet the big "flaw" I'm talking about is a concept quite simple, your strategy will only work, as long the market is growing at a rate that covers the extra costs. And when you reach the point where the market won't grow as fast as you need it to, you will have a big problem, I guess the first "idea" will be to make games more expensive, but this will fail pretty hard, since higher prices will also lead to fewer sales, so I really ask myself and I guess you should also ask yourselves doesn't that make your strategy kind of shortsighted?

Romeo
18th Jul 2010, 22:21
Maybe, but I think it's mainly about people of losing their hobbies. At least that's how I feel, I really enjoyed hard games, I even enjoyed reading big "books" like the falcon 4.0 manual. If I want to just waste time with shallow nonsense I turn on my TV. And for ppl like me gaming as a hobby seems to "die".

And I don't know if any publishers, or developers read this forum, I really ask myself how those ppl can't see how flawed their strategy is. You are making games more expensive every year, the funny part is, the consumer hardly sees the difference, most seems to be used for hiring "big names" for Voice-Over, Music etc. but if I just look at the product, it's impossible to justify the increasing costs.

Yet the big "flaw" I'm talking about is a concept quite simple, your strategy will only work, as long the market is growing at a rate that covers the extra costs. And when you reach the point where the market won't grow as fast as you need it to, you will have a big problem, I guess the first "idea" will be to make games more expensive, but this will fail pretty hard, since higher prices will also lead to fewer sales, so I really ask myself and I guess you should also ask yourselves doesn't that make your strategy kind of shortsighted?
I'm not sure you understand what's being discussed brother... This has nothing to do with voice-acting, plot, budget or anything else. Just achievements, and seeing as how the budget required to do those would be like slipping the intern an extra $20 on his next paycheque, I'm not worried about how sustainable they are. And I don't have any particular "strategy" going, I'm merely stating I'm not worried about the fact there's achievements in the game. lol

pringlepower
18th Jul 2010, 22:27
Maybe, but I think it's mainly about people of losing their hobbies. At least that's how I feel, I really enjoyed hard games, I even enjoyed reading big "books" like the falcon 4.0 manual. If I want to just waste time with shallow nonsense I turn on my TV. And for ppl like me gaming as a hobby seems to "die". And shure maybe this is elitism but its my hobbie and i think you will find this sort of "elitism" in any hobby. I know it seems unavoidable but still it sucks that those ppl that helped build up this market now get dumped for masses of casual-gamers. I know this is just logical since you can earn a lot of money now, but i always thought developing games was also about art and creating something special, but i guess i was wrong ... (i guess you could say "Computergaming goes Hollywood ...")

And I don't know if any publishers, or developers read this forum, I really ask myself how those ppl can't see how flawed their strategy is. You are making games more expensive every year, the funny part is, the consumer hardly sees the difference, most seems to be used for hiring "big names" for Voice-Over, Music etc. but if I just look at the product, it's impossible to justify the increasing costs. (at least not in this magnitude)

Yet the big "flaw" I'm talking about is a concept quite simple, your strategy will only work, as long the market is growing at a rate that covers the extra costs. And when you reach the point where the market won't grow as fast as you need it to, you will have a big problem, I guess the first "idea" will be to make games more expensive, but this will fail pretty hard, since higher prices will also lead to fewer sales, so I really ask myself and I guess you should also ask yourselves doesn't that make your strategy kind of shortsighted?

I do believe GTA IV made 500% profits in a week.

Fluffis
18th Jul 2010, 22:39
He has a point though. Everyone does crap like that because they can. If I do something bizarre in a game and I get a little message that the develloper thought of that, it doesn't diminish the experience, or mean I'm interested in some generic number. For people to assume otherwise is insulting, and reeks of elitism.

I don't think you understood me correctly (Edit: or maybe I just suck at explaining...). When I wrote "We (the ones who tried everything in DX) did it because it looked like fun", I meant that whole mind-set. Yes, people are going to be trying to do stuff because it looks like fun. However, there are going to be people doing it just to get Achievements. In my opinion, that kind of removes the spontaneity of the actions themselves. "Let's see if I get an Achievement for doing this!"

I'm not saying this to be elitist. I'm saying it because I think that some people (maybe even a lot of people) won't experience odd and quirky things in the game for the sheer enjoyment of experiencing it, but as some kind of treasure hunt. And I'm afraid of what that kind of thing is doing to the gaming community. I'm one of those people who subscribe to the thought that the journey is the goal. With things like Achievements, I'm being overruled. What I did to get to a place doesn't matter, since when I get there, I get a "treat". My journey wasn't important, just the result.

Also: Achievements do remove a bit of the spontaneity of exploration and experimentation. If I manage to do something completely outrageous, and it's clearly spelled out that the developers anticipated that I'd do that ("Tower of Babel Achievement! You stacked 100 barrels against a wall!"), it feels like my own weird little accomplishment is diminished. If it's not spelled out, I at least have the feeling that I may have managed to utilize the engine to do something that may not have been explicitly intended.

Romeo
18th Jul 2010, 22:39
And Halo, Modern Warfare 2 and Mass Effect 2 all were WELL into the black despite having large budgets as well.

Pinky_Powers
19th Jul 2010, 03:56
Yes, people are going to be trying to do stuff because it looks like fun. However, there are going to be people doing it just to get Achievements. In my opinion, that kind of removes the spontaneity of the actions themselves. "Let's see if I get an Achievement for doing this!"

Column A: People who try everything just for the fun of it.
Column B: People who try everything for the Achievements.

Without Achievements, only Column A get to have the fun of exploration and weirdness. With Achievements, both A and B get to have the same fun. The motivations of B do not diminish anything from A.

tartarus_sauce
19th Jul 2010, 04:20
Yeah, I'm sorry if there being an achievement for stacking barrels ruins your fun, but come on! That's like those elitist snobs who will turn on a band the moment people other than their friends like it. It just reeks of juvenile snobbery and insecurity.

jtr7
19th Jul 2010, 05:02
Keep pretending it's what you say it is, and the detractors are saying something other than what they are.

While EM could be building the game and letting you make your own achievements, you want them to take the time to not only guess what players are going to do and make artwork and UI assets for these things, but spend how long also pre-planning and building things tailored for an achievement system?

Describe how building and conceptualizing achievements systems has no negative impact on budget, resources, playtesting, debugging, conceptualizing the main game, and time?
Describe how a game made to be a Column A game is not impacted by also making mini-games and sub-games and side-games to fill-in Column B, and why any Column other than A doesn't actually matter more to you.


They could be building a Deus Ex game, and making it as solid as possible. If the Achievements system was built afterward, and provided as DLC, then we could know the game wasn't compromised, and no one was distracted from making the best Deus Ex game possible. It's a good thing they had their deadline extended. I mean, how much cost to us could be shaved off the if the communities still made their own achievements as part of social fandom and EM didn't spend time officially anticipating what players will do outside the main game and build systems and assets around and for them?

We're telling you, in one way after another, that funding Column B does and has harmed Column A, and the complaints and concerns are coming from real--not just perceived and denied--circumstances. Emotions and subjectivity aside, it objectively exists in the math.

II J0SePh X II
19th Jul 2010, 05:52
Haha, gotta laugh at that. They've probably got the same budget (as a percentage of costs) for achievements as all other Eidos games. Achievements/Trophies have never stopped a brilliant game from being brilliant, just like the little notification that one of my friends has come online (it's exactly the same as an achievement toast btw) has ever stopped a brilliant game from being brilliant.

I have yet to hear a developer say they couldn't make a great game, or that their game didn't come out so well because of achievements. If you can find one I'd be interested to read what they have to say.

Romeo
19th Jul 2010, 06:00
Keep pretending it's what you say it is, and the detractors are saying something other than what they are.

While EM could be building the game and letting you make your own achievements, you want them to take the time to not only guess what players are going to do and make artwork and UI assets for these things, but spend how long also pre-planning and building things tailored for an achievement system?

Describe how building and conceptualizing achievements systems has no negative impact on budget, resources, playtesting, debugging, conceptualizing the main game, and time?
Describe how a game made to be a Column A game is not impacted by also making mini-games and sub-games and side-games to fill-in Column B, and why any Column other than A doesn't actually matter more to you.


They could be building a Deus Ex game, and making it as solid as possible. If the Achievements system was built afterward, and provided as DLC, then we could know the game wasn't compromised, and no one was distracted from making the best Deus Ex game possible. It's a good thing they had their deadline extended. I mean, how much cost to us could be shaved off the if the communities still made their own achievements as part of social fandom and EM didn't spend time officially anticipating what players will do outside the main game and build systems and assets around and for them?

We're telling you, in one way after another, that funding Column B does and has harmed Column A, and the complaints and concerns are coming from real--not just perceived and denied--circumstances. Emotions and subjectivity aside, it objectively exists in the math.
You are aware achievements are mandatory on Xbox games, right? Besides, I could easily rattle off a ton of achievements, they arn't going to be wasting a ton of time and resources thinking about what to put in. Not to mention "anticipating what players will do outside the main game and build systems and assets around them"? This is Deus Ex - it damn well better do that achievements or not.

As for your final paragraph, you obviously have not done enough research into what's being discussed. The programming has already been done by Microsoft, it is just a script that tells a little message to go off, and it doesn't exactly take months of creative planning to think of. There has yet to be an Xbox game where I've played and thought "Damn, if they had not used that day to implement these mandatory achievements, this game would have SO much more to offer me."

pringlepower
19th Jul 2010, 07:13
Keep pretending it's what you say it is, and the detractors are saying something other than what they are.

While EM could be building the game and letting you make your own achievements, you want them to take the time to not only guess what players are going to do and make artwork and UI assets for these things, but spend how long also pre-planning and building things tailored for an achievement system?

Describe how building and conceptualizing achievements systems has no negative impact on budget, resources, playtesting, debugging, conceptualizing the main game, and time?
Describe how a game made to be a Column A game is not impacted by also making mini-games and sub-games and side-games to fill-in Column B, and why any Column other than A doesn't actually matter more to you.


They could be building a Deus Ex game, and making it as solid as possible. If the Achievements system was built afterward, and provided as DLC, then we could know the game wasn't compromised, and no one was distracted from making the best Deus Ex game possible. It's a good thing they had their deadline extended. I mean, how much cost to us could be shaved off the if the communities still made their own achievements as part of social fandom and EM didn't spend time officially anticipating what players will do outside the main game and build systems and assets around and for them?

We're telling you, in one way after another, that funding Column B does and has harmed Column A, and the complaints and concerns are coming from real--not just perceived and denied--circumstances. Emotions and subjectivity aside, it objectively exists in the math.

We should also cut funding for EM Montreal's air conditioning and plumbing budget to make sure everything goes to gameplay.

Let's also cut secretaries and janitors.

And unemployment insurance.

Screw it cut everything.

Fluffis
19th Jul 2010, 10:03
Column A: People who try everything just for the fun of it.
Column B: People who try everything for the Achievements.

Without Achievements, only Column A get to have the fun of exploration and weirdness. With Achievements, both A and B get to have the same fun. The motivations of B do not diminish anything from A.

You kind of ignored my point with this.

Pinky_Powers
19th Jul 2010, 11:34
You kind of ignored my point with this.

Unless you had some hidden code within the text, I'm pretty sure your point consisted of this line: "In my opinion, that kind of removes the spontaneity of the actions themselves."

I addressed this with Column A. Nothing is lost of the spontaneity if your own motives remain for the purity of discovery.

People are not all the same. Some folk need Achievements to lead them to discover all that a game has to offer. But for those of us who do it all for the joy of discovery, nothing is lost. Whether or not there are Achievements or Trophies, we will still explore every facet of a Deus Ex game. But with these simple things, both groups of gamers have a rewarding experience.

Of course, there's at least one other group out there; Column C. This set of simpletons will play nothing but the straightest path, with or without Achievements. But there's nothing anybody can do for them.

Fluffis
19th Jul 2010, 11:52
Unless you had some hidden code within the text, I'm pretty sure your point consisted of this line: "In my opinion, that kind of removes the spontaneity of the actions themselves."

I addressed this with Column A. Nothing is lost of the spontaneity if your own motives remain for the purity of discovery.

People are not all the same. Some folk need Achievements to lead them to discover all that a game has to offer. But for those of us who do it all for the joy of discovery, nothing is lost. Whether or not there are Achievements or Trophies, we will still explore every facet of a Deus Ex game. But with these simple things, both groups of gamers have a rewarding experience.


"I'm saying it because I think that some people (maybe even a lot of people) won't experience odd and quirky things in the game for the sheer enjoyment of experiencing it, but as some kind of treasure hunt. And I'm afraid of what that kind of thing is doing to the gaming community."

Not much of a "hidden code", I'd say.

I just feel that it is symptomatic of the "dumbing down" of games (for lack of a better word). The game developers are saying outright that the joy of exploration and experimentation is not enough. People have to be "forced" to do it, by having a carrot dangled in front of them. If people who don't like the idea don't speak out, developers are going to think that everyone is happy with it. It's kind of a "Good doggy! Here's a treat!" deal.

The spontaneity comment was more of a "And furthermore" kind of thing.



Of course, there's at least one other group out there; Column C. This set of simpletons will play nothing but the straightest path, with or without Achievements. But there's nothing anybody can do for them.

Amen to that. Those are the kind of people who probably shouldn't even be playing computer games in the first place. ;)

Ashpolt
19th Jul 2010, 12:51
^^ I would personally say that column C are "better" than column B: they are, at least, playing the game the way they want to play it, rather than exploring not through choice or interest, but instead because of a drive to find developer-placed "carrots."

Fluffis
19th Jul 2010, 13:14
^^ I would personally say that column C are "better" than column B: they are, at least, playing the game the way they want to play it, rather than exploring not through choice or interest, but instead because of a drive to find developer-placed "carrots."

Yeah, that was what my "wink" was about. I was intending it to be sarcastic but I know that that doesn't travel well over the internet, so I hold no grudges. :)

Yes, going "straight forward" is definitely "better", imo, since you actually do what you want to do, without caring about any surrounding "pressure". They may miss out on things, but that's really neither here nor there.

Pinky_Powers
19th Jul 2010, 22:06
You speak of symptoms and dumbing down, but I smell a far uglier infliction in this thread alone. There's a hateful elitism here that boggles my mind.

Achievements and Trophies actually bring folk back to the old foundation of videogames. Accumulating points and collecting treasures was a refined joy in the beginning. It is a hideousness to me to see you hating on those people who still have that old-school joy within them. Calling it dumbing down without any philosophical backing... you just hate on these people because you want to hate.

People who seek out Achievements are playing the game the way the want to play it. And their way is not "dumber" than ours.

hem dazon 90
20th Jul 2010, 00:51
I have to say I'm with pinky on this. How does tha addition of a ringing sound and a small blurb possibly do well anything hindering toward your enjoyment.

Fluffis
20th Jul 2010, 05:29
You speak of symptoms and dumbing down, but I smell a far uglier infliction in this thread alone. There's a hateful elitism here that boggles my mind.


It's actually pretty far from elitism, at least on my part.



Achievements and Trophies actually bring folk back to the old foundation of videogames. Accumulating points and collecting treasures was a refined joy in the beginning.


I know you're probably not going to agree with this, and you may even think I'm stupid for writing something like this:

"Back in the day", those things were an integral part of the game. It was usually the sole purpose, or one of the main purposes of the game itself. With Achievements, this is no longer the case. It's something that is added as an afterthought. Something to make gamers explore and experience. (It's kind of hard to explain what I mean.) It's like they don't trust gamers to do those kinds of things because they actually want to. That we have to have an incentive to explore. We never used to need that.



It is a hideousness to me to see you hating on those people who still have that old-school joy within them. Calling it dumbing down without any philosophical backing... you just hate on these people because you want to hate.

People who seek out Achievements are playing the game the way the want to play it. And their way is not "dumber" than ours.


No, I don't "hate on" those gamers. I "hate on" what that kind of gaming is doing to the gaming community. The very thought that gamers wouldn't explore and experience unless they get a "treat". Unfortunately, there are people that are swallowing this hook, line and sinker. That's their prerogative. It's the way they want to play a game, fine. I don't have a problem with the playing style as such.

No, their way is not dumber. I may have put it clumsily. It's the effect of that style of gaming that is the problem, since developers seem to be starting to think that we need those Achievements to go anywhere (a sort of downward spiral, if you will). I don't like developers treating me like I'm dumb. (I hope I'm not confusing my standpoint even further :o)

maddermadcat
20th Jul 2010, 05:37
A key part of game design is rewarding the player effectively. I think the problem with achievements it that they're lazy and have no substance as a reward -- instead of getting a shiny new gun (or skill points, or a readable, or even a nice view), you get a virtual pat on the back. It's lazy, and the fact that it works is rather depressing.

There's nothing wrong with receiving a "treat" for exploration, Fluffis. When that "treat" is as unsubstantial as an achievement -- that's a problem. I would argue that those treats are necessary to encourage exploration, but the reward ought to be something worthwhile.

As for whether achievements break immersion or not, I'd say they do. Instead of going somewhere and finding something useful or just getting the satisfaction of seeing something you haven't before, the game reminds you it's a game and HELLO I AM THE DEVELOPER I WANTED YOU TO GO HERE ISN'T IT COOL

Romeo
20th Jul 2010, 06:06
It's actually pretty far from elitism, at least on my part.



I know you're probably not going to agree with this, and you may even think I'm stupid for writing something like this:

"Back in the day", those things were an integral part of the game. It was usually the sole purpose, or one of the main purposes of the game itself. With Achievements, this is no longer the case. It's something that is added as an afterthought. Something to make gamers explore and experience. (It's kind of hard to explain what I mean.) It's like they don't trust gamers to do those kinds of things because they actually want to. That we have to have an incentive to explore. We never used to need that.



No, I don't "hate on" those gamers. I "hate on" what that kind of gaming is doing to the gaming community. The very thought that gamers wouldn't explore and experience unless they get a "treat". Unfortunately, there are people that are swallowing this hook, line and sinker. That's their prerogative. It's the way they want to play a game, fine. I don't have a problem with the playing style as such.

No, their way is not dumber. I may have put it clumsily. It's the effect of that style of gaming that is the problem, since developers seem to be starting to think that we need those Achievements to go anywhere (a sort of downward spiral, if you will). I don't like developers treating me like I'm dumb. (I hope I'm not confusing my standpoint even further :o)
You're only interpreting that way then, and it's your own fault for doing so. I don't feel "dumb" when I beat a game and get an achievement - that was kinda the point, after all. A simple message doesn't speak down to me, but it does provide weird things to do - and a unique momento that one did indeed do such a feat - for those who might otherwise stop playing a game. For others, such as myself, they don't affect the gameplay, and thus are useless, but don't negatively impact my experience so I'm not particularly worried.

A key part of game design is rewarding the player effectively. I think the problem with achievements it that they're lazy and have no substance as a reward -- instead of getting a shiny new gun (or skill points, or a readable, or even a nice view), you get a virtual pat on the back. It's lazy, and the fact that it works is rather depressing.

There's nothing wrong with receiving a "treat" for exploration, Fluffis. When that "treat" is as unsubstantial as an achievement -- that's a problem. I would argue that those treats are necessary to encourage exploration, but the reward ought to be something worthwhile.

As for whether achievements break immersion or not, I'd say they do. Instead of going somewhere and finding something useful or just getting the satisfaction of seeing something you haven't before, the game reminds you it's a game and HELLO I AM THE DEVELOPER I WANTED YOU TO GO HERE ISN'T IT COOL
So what happens in racing games, where there isn't hidden areas to explore, or shooters that may not have "special weapons"? I would say for those, such as yourself, who seem to demand some sort of in game reward, that a memory and something you can compare with your friends is better than just the memory. If I do some crazy drifting in Forza 3, that's cool, but it happens then it's done. With achievements, one could look at their friends profile and see that they did that, which provides sort of a rough estimate on how they play the game.

Fluffis
20th Jul 2010, 06:25
There's nothing wrong with receiving a "treat" for exploration, Fluffis. When that "treat" is as unsubstantial as an achievement -- that's a problem. I would argue that those treats are necessary to encourage exploration, but the reward ought to be something worthwhile.


I agree, to a certain extent. I have no problem with something like a treat being insubstantial, as long as it is an integral part of the game. A fantastic view over part of the game world, for instance.

If there is a treat at the end of an exploration I'm all for it, if (and it's a pretty big "if") it's not expected. When you expect to find something, then a big point of exploration and experimentation is lost. It should not always succeed. Yes, I know that you don't get Achievements for everything in a game, but the Achievements themselves are a constant. You know that there are Achievements. The only trick is finding them.

And also, when the developers come out and say "We expected you to do this" (Achievement), the feeling of actually accomplishing something is diminished, because it says there, right on screen, that you did exactly what the developers wanted you to do.

Fluffis
20th Jul 2010, 06:41
You're only interpreting that way then, and it's your own fault for doing so. I don't feel "dumb" when I beat a game and get an achievement - that was kinda the point, after all. A simple message doesn't speak down to me, but it does provide weird things to do - and a unique momento that one did indeed do such a feat - for those who might otherwise stop playing a game. For others, such as myself, they don't affect the gameplay, and thus are useless, but don't negatively impact my experience so I'm not particularly worried.


I'm not talking about an Achievement for beating the game (though I think one of those may be the most pointless - you already know you beat it). I'm talking about those that you know are there for exploring, and doing weird things. And you do know that they are there. Change one achievement into a new gun, for instance. Change another one into a fantastic view. Change one into a hilarious conversation, or some foreshadowing event. Just don't let the gamer expect them from the get-go.

And if you have an engine that supports doing weird stuff with the environment, let that be its own reward! It's always worked before. This is the reason why people are still making completely outrageous walkthroughs for games like DX. If there had been an achievement for gathering every TNT crate in the NY area, just to blow up everyone in the 'Ton, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. The walkthrough would have been called: "This is how you get the Achievement for blowing up everyone in the 'Ton". You see the difference in creativity? In the license granted to the gamer? No matter if the developers know it can be done or not - as long as they don't explicitly state that it was intended, it is the gamer's idea.

MaxxQ1
20th Jul 2010, 07:15
I agree, to a certain extent. I have no problem with something like a treat being insubstantial, as long as it is an integral part of the game. A fantastic view over part of the game world, for instance.

If there is a treat at the end of an exploration I'm all for it, if (and it's a pretty big "if") it's not expected. When you expect to find something, then a big point of exploration and experimentation is lost. It should not always succeed. Yes, I know that you don't get Achievements for everything in a game, but the Achievements themselves are a constant. You know that there are Achievements. The only trick is finding them.

And also, when the developers come out and say "We expected you to do this" (Achievement), the feeling of actually accomplishing something is diminished, because it says there, right on screen, that you did exactly what the developers wanted you to do.

The point of the journey is not to arrive, but the journey itself.

IOW, I agree with you.

Fluffis
20th Jul 2010, 07:18
The point of the journey is not to arrive, but the journey itself.


Exactly.

Pinky_Powers
20th Jul 2010, 11:47
You've beaten me with your stubbornness Fluffis. I admit to nurturing a feeble hope of persuading you. But you really won't budge. And I was as compelling as I could manage! :)

Fluffis
20th Jul 2010, 12:42
You've beaten me with your stubbornness Fluffis. I admit to nurturing a feeble hope of persuading you. But you really won't budge. And I was as compelling as I could manage! :)

I'm sorry... I just feel kind of strongly about this.

Romeo
21st Jul 2010, 01:33
I'm not talking about an Achievement for beating the game (though I think one of those may be the most pointless - you already know you beat it). I'm talking about those that you know are there for exploring, and doing weird things. And you do know that they are there. Change one achievement into a new gun, for instance. Change another one into a fantastic view. Change one into a hilarious conversation, or some foreshadowing event. Just don't let the gamer expect them from the get-go.

And if you have an engine that supports doing weird stuff with the environment, let that be its own reward! It's always worked before. This is the reason why people are still making completely outrageous walkthroughs for games like DX. If there had been an achievement for gathering every TNT crate in the NY area, just to blow up everyone in the 'Ton, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. The walkthrough would have been called: "This is how you get the Achievement for blowing up everyone in the 'Ton". You see the difference in creativity? In the license granted to the gamer? No matter if the developers know it can be done or not - as long as they don't explicitly state that it was intended, it is the gamer's idea.
Ok, so right off the bet, in no way are achievements a replacement for in-game rewards. In fact, as I said with Mass Effect, they can actually be a part of in-game rewards. As I also said, achievements can be made so you don't know what to look for, by either making the pre-reward description very vague, or by making it a secret achievement (In which case you don't know what it is until you have it).

And your second point still makes me feel achievements arn't the problem - your perception is. Just the simple fact that something acknowledged that you did something ruins the experience to you? That's unfortunate - most people are capable of living with themselves after a game notes that they did something. If I act like an idiot in a game and an achievement goes off (Such as jumping off the top of the tallest building in Crackdown without dying) that experience is still the same to me. I honestly cannot figure out how a simple message so easily breaks a moment to you.

Pinky_Powers
21st Jul 2010, 02:13
And your second point still makes me feel achievements arn't the problem - your perception is.

Quite true. Right from the off I tried to get him to look outside of himself for a moment and acknowledge there are indeed people who need achievements to guide them into the same awesomeness that players like you or I find on our own.

He says Achievements are founded on the industries lack of trust for the gamer. What he doesn't understand is that studios do extensive play-testing. They have a hard numerical understanding of just how many players do need a little nudge to explore their products more thoroughly.

And then came Achievements. And so very many more gamers begin to explore and have fun beyond the game-proper.

Fluffis, you say that your concerns are far from elitist. But I've read everything you've said, and your views and opinions couldn't be more prejudiced and arrogant. There are a great many things that have diminished the industry, but the fact that more gamers, with Achievements, are having the same fun we always did without them, is absolutely not hurtful to anything.

Romeo
21st Jul 2010, 05:56
Quite true. Right from the off I tried to get him to look outside of himself for a moment and acknowledge there are indeed people who need achievements to guide them into the same awesomeness that players like you or I find on our own.

He says Achievements are founded on the industries lack of trust for the gamer. What he doesn't understand is that studios do extensive play-testing. They have a hard numerical understanding of just how many players do need a little nudge to explore their products more thoroughly.

And then came Achievements. And so very many more gamers begin to explore and have fun beyond the game-proper.

Fluffis, you say that your concerns are far from elitist. But I've read everything you've said, and your views and opinions couldn't be more prejudiced and arrogant. There are a great many things that have diminished the industry, but the fact that more gamers, with Achievements, are having the same fun we always did without them, is absolutely not hurtful to anything.
Agreed, if it's allowing more people to have fun without ruining anything, I'm great with that.

II J0SePh X II
21st Jul 2010, 08:01
I'm closing in on the Auf Wiedersehen Petrovich achievement on GTA IV after two years. I was lukewarm about it when I realised early on that I was no racer, all my MP time was given to DM and TDM. That was until a couple of weeks ago when I managed to lock off all the heli races. Then I changed tactics and concentrated on trying to host my own races and setting it to one lap because with a good start I can be in the lead after a lap, but then get overhauled on laps two and above. It worked! Last week I locked of all the road races.

The Cannonball Runs were proving really difficult, there's no track and you have to pass through checkpoints any way you can,so I checked youtube and there was a series of vids posted showing all the best routes and short cuts.

Now all I have to do is five free races, which are point to point and one boat race, before doing all 54 tracks again in GTA Race except in GTA Race you can get out of the car, pick up weapons and shoot your fellow contestants.

And what do you get for winning every multiplayer variant on GTA IV ? 20 points and an icon! I don't think that's the reward though, it's a famously difficult achievement and the reward is just having done it, but it's a long way away.

Fluffis
21st Jul 2010, 11:31
If I act like an idiot in a game and an achievement goes off (Such as jumping off the top of the tallest building in Crackdown without dying) that experience is still the same to me.

... and it isn't to me... Does that mean I'm wrong?



I honestly cannot figure out how a simple message so easily breaks a moment to you.


Because all of a sudden that outrageous idea wasn't "really" mine. I do something on the spur of the moment, and it turns out that it was something that the developers wanted me to do. It was something they expected me to do. That doesn't diminish a moment like that to you? Fine. It does to me.



What he doesn't understand is that studios do extensive play-testing.


Talk about being prejudiced and arrogant... I've been a gamer since 1985, and you don't think I know that?

But then... isn't it true that they are, for XBox360 and PS3, forced to add Achievements/Trophies by Microsoft and Sony? When it comes to Achievements/Trophies, it doesn't matter if they've play-tested or not. They have to add them. No matter if those poor people who "need a nudge" really exist or not (yes, I know they do). But the point there, is that since Microsoft and Sony are enforcing these things, they are in fact making sure that there will always be gamers who depend on Achievements/Trophies to enjoy games fully. I've actually heard people who avoid playing games that don't have Achievements (more accurately: don't add to their Gamerscore)... doesn't that sound like the whole thing has started to become counter-productive?



There are a great many things that have diminished the industry, but the fact that more gamers, with Achievements, are having the same fun we always did without them, is absolutely not hurtful to anything.


Okay, so the only thing that is right and correct, is to like Achievements then? Glad we sorted that out...

I mean: it's not like a power-up, a new gun, a Black Forest Cake or something like that could be a better reward... right? You know... something that is actually in game. Or even the only possible way you could get to see an amazing view of the game world. Or a funny dialogue. Or a foreshadowing dialogue. Hell, you can even print that on the cover of the game: "Don't forget to look around! There are things hidden in this game!"

But no. You're right. The only thing that can possibly get some people to explore, is an icon and a cute little sound.

pringlepower
21st Jul 2010, 21:56
So if you save someone's life by giving them CPR, then they give you a thank you message, that's bad?

Pretentious Old Man.
21st Jul 2010, 22:21
So if you save someone's life by giving them CPR, then they give you a thank you message, that's bad?

Real Life =/= Game.

If you have an idea in real life, then it's definitely your idea, and you're pleased with your ingenuity. It does kind of ruin the moment when you use lateral thinking to solve a problem, and then developers give you a "well done, we thought someone might do that, have a cookie" award.

I'm supposed to be a super-spy agent, not some random guy playing on the couch! :nut:

(Not that I care, I'll be playing the PC version, which hopefully won't have bleep-bloop style achievements anyway.)

Fluffis
21st Jul 2010, 22:34
(Not that I care, I'll be playing the PC version, which hopefully won't have bleep-bloop style achievements anyway.)

Here's hoping.

Pretentious Old Man.
21st Jul 2010, 22:36
Here's hoping.


Nah, it won't. Most it'll have are Steam achievements, and they don't pop up in-game.

Fluffis
21st Jul 2010, 22:42
Nah, it won't. Most it'll have are Steam achievements, and they don't pop up in-game.

Oh yes they do... Not in all games, but they can definitely pop up in-game. Well... not exactly in-game, but still... seeing a green-grey square chugging up slowly in the right-hand corner can be really annoying in some circumstances. No sound though, which is a relief.

Edit: a small horror-story: I played Portal for the first time (bought on Steam), the other day. At the beginning of the ending cut-scene, there that annoying little square came moseying up from the bottom of the screen. And since it is designed to not take up too much computer power... it flickered. It took about 5-10 seconds to get all the way up, and go back down again. God, that was irritating.

Romeo
22nd Jul 2010, 01:00
... and it isn't to me... Does that mean I'm wrong?

No, but it also doesn't mean others need to have to sacrifice their good time because you personally can't ignore a simple message.

Because all of a sudden that outrageous idea wasn't "really" mine. I do something on the spur of the moment, and it turns out that it was something that the developers wanted me to do. It was something they expected me to do. That doesn't diminish a moment like that to you? Fine. It does to me.

You do realize other people probably have done the things you did anyways, right? They are still your ideas - even if others have done so before. Case in point: The Porsche Carrera GT is a car, and there are other cars that have come before, but it was still someone's idea. You just need to quit thinking that the things you do are uniquely yours, plenty others will likely do what you do, get over it.

Talk about being prejudiced and arrogant... I've been a gamer since 1985, and you don't think I know that?

But then... isn't it true that they are, for XBox360 and PS3, forced to add Achievements/Trophies by Microsoft and Sony? When it comes to Achievements/Trophies, it doesn't matter if they've play-tested or not. They have to add them. No matter if those poor people who "need a nudge" really exist or not (yes, I know they do). But the point there, is that since Microsoft and Sony are enforcing these things, they are in fact making sure that there will always be gamers who depend on Achievements/Trophies to enjoy games fully. I've actually heard people who avoid playing games that don't have Achievements (more accurately: don't add to their Gamerscore)... doesn't that sound like the whole thing has started to become counter-productive?

Those are people obviously find enjoyment from that. So they obviously enjoying achievements.

Okay, so the only thing that is right and correct, is to like Achievements then? Glad we sorted that out...

I mean: it's not like a power-up, a new gun, a Black Forest Cake or something like that could be a better reward... right? You know... something that is actually in game. Or even the only possible way you could get to see an amazing view of the game world. Or a funny dialogue. Or a foreshadowing dialogue. Hell, you can even print that on the cover of the game: "Don't forget to look around! There are things hidden in this game!"

But no. You're right. The only thing that can possibly get some people to explore, is an icon and a cute little sound.

Ok, so just to confirm here - you are aware that in giving you a gun in-game versus an achievement in-game, you're still being bribed in both cases? And for about the 84756th time: In-game rewards and achievements are not mutually exclusive. You needn't lose out on collecting a silenced pistol hidden in a room, or getting in-game information.


Now, to just set aside your personal argument, I keep hearing that people are worried doing something crazy will unlock an achievement, and make them feel like they weren't the genius they thought they were. I'm going to go out on a limb and say achievements will likely be awarded for beating the game, beating it on hard, beating each ending, collecting all information and maxxing a particular aug or skill. None of which anyone with half a braincell would think is something unique only they did.

Fluffis
22nd Jul 2010, 02:33
You do realize other people probably have done the things you did anyways, right? They are still your ideas - even if others have done so before. Case in point: The Porsche Carrera GT is a car, and there are other cars that have come before, but it was still someone's idea. You just need to quit thinking that the things you do are uniquely yours, plenty others will likely do what you do, get over it.

This is not about the idea itself, or how many do the same thing. I thought that was pretty obvious. It's the experience. You know: the reason why we play games... at all. It's the way I experience the game. I don't give a frell about other people when I play a game (and I actually think this is the case with most gamers). The only one that matters when I play a game is me. And if an idea I have, when doing something weird, or maybe completely outrageous, (totally off the cuff, spur of the moment kind of deal) turns out to be something that the developers not only thought of, but felt they have to tell me that they thought of, and cared enough about to construct an Achievement around, it diminishes my experience. I've noticed here, and on other boards, that I'm not alone in this. Achievements are starting to have a bit of a backlash with quite a few gamers.



Those are people obviously find enjoyment from that. So they obviously enjoying achievements.


Here's a couple of crazy ideas (and bear with me, because they're completely nutty (apparently)): Maybe they would enjoy the game anyway. Or maybe, just maybe, they would enjoy an in-game reward just as much. :nut:

I mean, god forbid that they would actually try think up some way to appease everyone, right? Who gives a **** about the people who aren't happy, right? That would require work. And thinking. And effort.



Ok, so just to confirm here - you are aware that in giving you a gun in-game versus an achievement in-game, you're still being bribed in both cases?


Yeah no ****, Sherlock...
But a gun, for instance, is something that is valuable in-game. An Achievement is worth nothing. It's crap. It's an abstract in an abstract. Why have just an icon, when you can actually give the gamer something (experience points, perhaps). At least then, a weird decision can actually be beneficial to the game itself.



And for about the 84756th time: In-game rewards and achievements are not mutually exclusive. You needn't lose out on collecting a silenced pistol hidden in a room, or getting in-game information.


But most of the time (and we're talking about 90%), an Achievement is nothing. It's just an icon, and a sound. It says "Wohoo! You did something!", and then there is nothing more, except e-peen measuring online.

You know: DX had Achievements as well... they were called Experience Points, guns, conversations, great environments and Easter Eggs. And they did exactly what Achievements are supposed to do: got people to explore. Funny thing about them, though... they added something to the game. They, ultimately, helped you in-game and/or entertained you.

Are the developers (as an extension of Microsoft and Sony (and to a lesser extent: Steam)) saying that all gamers nowadays are so stupid and/or lazy, that that isn't enough to get them to explore? That they have to have more, to get them to move around? And not only that: That they will be satisfied with an icon and a cute sound "Oh, it says I managed to do something!". I don't know about you, but... I'd be offended by that... if I was a console gamer.


Now, to just set aside your personal argument, I keep hearing that people are worried doing something crazy will unlock an achievement, and make them feel like they weren't the genius they thought they were. I'm going to go out on a limb and say achievements will likely be awarded for beating the game, beating it on hard, beating each ending, collecting all information and maxxing a particular aug or skill. None of which anyone with half a braincell would think is something unique only they did.

Until I see some proof of this, I'll remain sceptical.

Anyway... that's enough talk about this, for me. I have a feeling I won't be converting anyone, and I've probably managed to alienate quite a few people, who think I'm completely off my rocker for not accepting things as they are, without question.
Not to mention the fact that I'm bumping my head on the ceiling in here.

I'm done with this thread.

Romeo
23rd Jul 2010, 05:03
1) This is not about the idea itself, or how many do the same thing. I thought that was pretty obvious. It's the experience. You know: the reason why we play games... at all. It's the way I experience the game. I don't give a frell about other people when I play a game (and I actually think this is the case with most gamers). The only one that matters when I play a game is me. And if an idea I have, when doing something weird, or maybe completely outrageous, (totally off the cuff, spur of the moment kind of deal) turns out to be something that the developers not only thought of, but felt they have to tell me that they thought of, and cared enough about to construct an Achievement around, it diminishes my experience. I've noticed here, and on other boards, that I'm not alone in this. Achievements are starting to have a bit of a backlash with quite a few gamers.



2) Here's a couple of crazy ideas (and bear with me, because they're completely nutty (apparently)): Maybe they would enjoy the game anyway. Or maybe, just maybe, they would enjoy an in-game reward just as much. :nut:

I mean, god forbid that they would actually try think up some way to appease everyone, right? Who gives a **** about the people who aren't happy, right? That would require work. And thinking. And effort.



3) Yeah no ****, Sherlock...
But a gun, for instance, is something that is valuable in-game. An Achievement is worth nothing. It's crap. It's an abstract in an abstract. Why have just an icon, when you can actually give the gamer something (experience points, perhaps). At least then, a weird decision can actually be beneficial to the game itself.



4) But most of the time (and we're talking about 90%), an Achievement is nothing. It's just an icon, and a sound. It says "Wohoo! You did something!", and then there is nothing more, except e-peen measuring online.

5) You know: DX had Achievements as well... they were called Experience Points, guns, conversations, great environments and Easter Eggs. And they did exactly what Achievements are supposed to do: got people to explore. Funny thing about them, though... they added something to the game. They, ultimately, helped you in-game and/or entertained you.

6) Are the developers (as an extension of Microsoft and Sony (and to a lesser extent: Steam)) saying that all gamers nowadays are so stupid and/or lazy, that that isn't enough to get them to explore? That they have to have more, to get them to move around? And not only that: That they will be satisfied with an icon and a cute sound "Oh, it says I managed to do something!". I don't know about you, but... I'd be offended by that... if I was a console gamer.



7) Until I see some proof of this, I'll remain sceptical.

8) Anyway... that's enough talk about this, for me. I have a feeling I won't be converting anyone, and I've probably managed to alienate quite a few people, who think I'm completely off my rocker for not accepting things as they are, without question.
Not to mention the fact that I'm bumping my head on the ceiling in here.

9) I'm done with this thread.
1) And as far as I can see, you still are the focus of the game. When you go from level 1 to level 2, that is still a personal achievement (As well as possibly a literal one in this discussion) of course the develloper thought of that. Hell, when you kill Anna earlier than predicted, the devellopers obviously considered that, but it doesn't diminish the experience. Again, you need to quit assuming that these crazy ideas you do in game are completely yours - they arn't.

2) Those specific people seem to treat achievements as a sort of game. It's like a contest to them. So, let them have their fun.

3) So, when you picked up data and literature - that then annoyed you? I mean, after all, that is not useful more often than not (And this is ignoring that typically achievements for collecting things are based upon the same things you collect normally, such as in-game data).

4) No, not at all. That was so far off it's not even funny. 90% of the time, collection-based (The only ones you seem to be able to argue against) achievements are based upon one of two models: Either collecting something exceptionally rare and useful (See: Skulgun) which most people aim to do anyways, or by collecting packets of in-game information, which most people again do anyways.

5) Wow, you mean those same things that are still in the game? I can't possibly imagine how they'll manage to fit them in, you know, with achievements being in and all. Maybe that'll be PC-only. :rolleyes:

6) No, that's what you're saying. Something I still find funny given that by substituting a message for a gun you're suddenly all weak in the knees for the concept. All they're doing is adding a sort've Pokemon-like "gotta catch 'em all" thing going for those who want to pursue that.

7) That's aces, I'd expect no less. But logistics tell me "Pin five people to a barrel" and "Walk through every room in the game" wont be making it.

8) Which should tell you something, non?

9) Au revoir.