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Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 18:38
In the original Deus Ex, and to a lesser extent invisible war, one of the defining gameplay elements (at least as far as I remember) was resource management, and the thoughtful play that provoked.

I'll give an example. Going into a level (let's say, Hell's Kitchen or the Sub Base) you might have 3 lockpicks, 4 multitools and a couple of HE rounds (capable of destroying <inf strength doors). That means that, realistically, and depending on your skills, you were able to break into x number of doors and hack y number of consoles. You could roughly guess this. If you then got to a safe with "pick strength 2 picks, door strength 50%" you had a three options, you could

A.) Pick the lock and take a chance on wasting lockpicks.
B.) Blow it up and take a chance on wasting an HE round/rocket/lam.
C.) Decide to leave it, because resources were just too tight to risk.

This was a major part of building the tension: agonising on the question "is it really important enough for me to waste resources on this? What if I need these resources to continue the game later?"
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now consider the new game. As far as we know, there are no longer any multitools, lockpicks, or HE rounds (although it's possible rockets might do the trick). In a move of streamlining / simplification, there is a hacking mini-game a la Mass Effect (although hopefully a bit better) that lets you open doors without any tools or resources at all, with added help if you have the right aug.

Now, while I don't have a problem with a minigame, the removal of resource management takes away a lot of the experience for me. Never again will I think "damn, I would quite like that aug upgrade, but to get at it I would need several multitools that I blew earlier on that keypad". I could always get to it. There will not be secret areas that you actually can't get to any more, due to not having the right numbe of tools and picks.

I think this is quite unfortunate, personally, and don't understand why they couldn't have had tools and a minigame, if they wanted a minigame. To me, it smacks of not wanting to punish players who haven't planned ahead.

Discuss. Am I missing something stated in some obscure preview about resource management?

PenguinsFriend
28th Jun 2010, 18:40
^well - if you are going for total immersion, then there are other games that do this well and could be good modles. I'm a little sick of being able to carry a rocket launcher, 15 sniper rifles, a laser rifle, 50 grenades and various other items all on my back!

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 18:42
^well - if you are going for total immersion, then there are other games that do this well and could be good modles. I'm a little sick of being able to carry a rocket launcher, 15 sniper rifles, a laser rifle, 50 grenades and various other items all on my back!

Yup. Obviously you don't want to limit the player too much, but I think the tetris inventory is a fairly good way of saying what you can and cannot carry.

You should not be able to carry something of everything, for sure. But that's another debate.

Ragequit
28th Jun 2010, 18:42
I'm pretty sure you hit the nail on the head about the removal of multi-tools, lockpicks, I don't know about HE rounds (but they've also removed med-kits, and I would question bio-cells?). It's too bad, I liked the resource system in DX. I'm probably gonna buy DX3 but it looks like I'm on the road towards major disappointment.
If I wanted a generic shooter I'd just continue playing modern warfare 2 with my buds

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 18:46
I'm pretty sure you hit the nail on the head about the removal of multi-tools, lockpicks, I don't know about HE rounds (but they've also removed med-kits, and I would question bio-cells?). It's too bad, I liked the resource system in DX. I'm probably gonna buy DX3 but it looks like I'm on the road towards major disappointment.
If I wanted a generic shooter I'd just continue playing modern warfare 2 with my buds

There's no alternate ammo types, so it seems like a fairly dead cert that there'll be no HE rounds.

PenguinsFriend
28th Jun 2010, 18:49
There's no alternate ammo types, so it seems like a fairly dead cert that there'll be no HE rounds.

The ammo is tied to the weapon you use. You don't see them producing an in-game weapon that only uses high explosive rounds?

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 18:51
The ammo is tied to the weapon you use. You don't see them producing an in-game weapon that only uses high explosive rounds?

I said there'd be other types of rocket or lam in the OP. I meant there would no longer be a gun attachment from an assault rifle firing HE.

Jerion
28th Jun 2010, 18:52
I said there'd be other types of rocket or lam in the OP. I meant there would no longer be a gun attachment from an assault rifle firing HE.

This, I'm not so sure about. Weapon attachments are (probably) part of the weapon upgrade system. But the default weapon won't be able to switch ammo types on the whim, like you could in the original with the shotguns.

Ashpolt
28th Jun 2010, 18:55
Yeah, they keep mentioning that the grid-based inventory is still in - which is great - but with lockpicks and multitools out of the picture, augs and aug upgrades now handled by money and XP respectively (i.e. not canisters,) weapon upgrades I believe also being handled by money, and medkits apparently in but non-essential because you have health regen (and we haven't been told clearly exactly what form these health restoring items will take anyway) I'm not entirely sure what we're going to be storing in our fancy grid based inventory other than guns 'n' ammo. And I wouldn't bet 100% on ammo taking up inventory space.

I totally agree with you with regards to resource management btw - it's a big part of any RPG, and even more so in Deus Ex because your resources actually determined what you could and couldn't do within a level (rather than just being health and mana restorative items and weapons.) To have that removed is yet another pillar of the gameplay experience taken out, or at least diminished. There may be some limit to how much you can hack - e.g. it may take up an energy "pip" - but I don't like the idea that hacking a console means I can't later use my ballistic shield: I want consequences, but they have to be sensible consequences.

PenguinsFriend
28th Jun 2010, 18:57
The AGS-17 and AGS-30 fire explosive rounds, but they need to be tripod mounted. There's the new M320 - hope they add that.

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 19:00
Yeah, they keep mentioning that the grid-based inventory is still in - which is great - but with lockpicks and multitools out of the picture, augs and aug upgrades now handled by money and XP respectively (i.e. not canisters,) weapon upgrades I believe also being handled by money, and medkits apparently in but non-essential because you have health regen (and we haven't been told clearly exactly what form these health restoring items will take anyway) I'm not entirely sure what we're going to be storing in our fancy grid based inventory other than guns 'n' ammo. And I wouldn't bet 100% on ammo taking up inventory space.

I totally agree with you with regards to resource management btw - it's a big part of any RPG, and even more so in Deus Ex because your resources actually determined what you could and couldn't do within a level (rather than just being health and mana restorative items and weapons.) To have that removed is yet another pillar of the gameplay experience taken out, or at least diminished. There may be some limit to how much you can hack - e.g. it may take up an energy "pip" - but I don't like the idea that hacking a console means I can't later use my ballistic shield: I want consequences, but they have to be sensible consequences.

Agreed.

Now, if they had a guy here on the forum, they could just say "oh, no..." or "oh, yes..." and we would know for sure. Eidos do it to themselves...:scratch:

VectorM
28th Jun 2010, 19:00
This was a major part of building the tension: agonising on the question "is it really important enough for me to waste resources on this? What if I need these resources to continue the game later?"


And then you just save before you take action and all of that tension is gone :lol:

Oh, wait, people save ONLY when they have to go for dinner, I forgot :nut:

Blade_hunter
28th Jun 2010, 19:02
Attachments are part of the upgrade system, but we wouldn't have anything that could add a secondary barrel to our weapon since they want weapons with a clear cut functionality ...
We have scopes, silencers, clip upgrades, heat seeking systems and such things, but otherwise there won't be any other kind of attachment like an underbarrel shotgun; according to their definition, they want weapons with a clear cut functionality.
Their crossbow is a pure lethal weapon now, but I see they want to add a stun gun (a sort of taster pistol) so if people wants a non lethal weaponry they have to chose a non lethal weapon or use the takedowns

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 19:03
And then you just save before you take action and all of that tension is gone :lol:


I was waiting for someone to say that! :)

Yeah, you can do that. However, some of us try to role-play our RPGs. Also, even if you KNOW there's a hazmat suit (say) inside, the tactical question still stands: would I rather have a Hazmat or 2 lockpicks?

Remington
28th Jun 2010, 19:04
Hey! This is one of the features we can ACTUALLY mod in! (given that there is an SDK, of course)

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 19:05
Hey! This is one of the features we can ACTUALLY mod in! (given that there is an SDK, of course)

Granted, but again, I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you.

Jerion
28th Jun 2010, 19:07
Granted, but again, I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you.

Just give K^2 a week or two and all the problems will be solved.

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 19:17
Just give K^2 a week or two and all the problems will be solved.

O rly? :D

I hope so. Seems a bit much to expect a whole engine to be decompiled and modded in two weeks, but hey. Tell K squared to buy Tomb Raider: Underworld, and attack it with a hex editor! :nut:

Oddness
28th Jun 2010, 19:30
Pretty sad and stupid that stuff like this gets dropped but the block inventory was considered a good enough idea to bring back.

Jerion
28th Jun 2010, 19:54
Things that we could have in the tetris inventory...hmmm.

-Weapons
-Misc objects? (ex: Ambrosia Vial, Flares)
-Armor/Camo suits?
-Ammo?
-Uninstalled Augmentations?
-Keys?
-Rebreathers/Binoculars/Goggles?
-Grenade/Mine Components?
-Health supplements (food/stimpacks/meds)
-Energy cells?

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 19:56
Things that we could have in the tetris inventory...hmmm.

-Weapons
-Misc objects? (ex: Ambrosia Vial)
-Armor/Camo suits?
-Ammo?
-Uninstalled Augmentations?
-Keys?
-Rebreathers/Binoculars/Goggles?
-Grenade/Mine Components?
-Health supplements (food/stimpacks/meds)
-Energy cells?

Maybe we can badger Keir with this when he takes up his reins? :)

mad_red
28th Jun 2010, 20:14
And then you just save before you take action and all of that tension is gone :lol:

Oh, wait, people save ONLY when they have to go for dinner, I forgot :nut:

Ouch! Collective punishment...

Try it folks, just for once. Who knows, maybe you'll like it?



Things that we could have in the tetris inventory...hmmm.

-Weapons
-Misc objects? (ex: Ambrosia Vial, Flares)
-Armor/Camo suits?
-Ammo?
-Uninstalled Augmentations?
-Keys?
-Rebreathers/Binoculars/Goggles?
-Grenade/Mine Components?
-Health supplements (food/stimpacks/meds)
-Energy cells?

Remove all the question marks and that's a decent list of things. If the stuff is there, the next question becomes one of quantity and distribution.

For example, I'd hope that a guy that wants to play through the game using only a single ammunition type, is going to come up just a bit short every now and then. Not a lot mind you - just a bit, and only when going up against grunts.

It's not that I have a grudge against that guy. It's just that if a player decides to use the same ammo 90% of the time, and use a different weapon 10% of the time, he will never run out of ammo unless he is less skilled. This becomes more and more important on higher difficulties, and it also encourages the player to come up with creative solutions.

So I hope that when they're playtesting, they won't go: "We don't wanna frustrate the player and leave him without ammo. Let's make sure there's more than he'll ever need."

TrickyVein
28th Jun 2010, 20:53
I'm playing Dead Space right now, and while it's not as big into resource management as other titles I've played (fallout 1 + 2, System shock) It's still a prime factor in the gameplay - you can't be an ammo glutton, and it's even slightly overwhelming to be wielding the maximum of four weapons allotted to the player at a time. You have to manage ammo for each of them, and ammo for all of them becomes more rare.

I read this thought in another thread, that a good game should allow you to fail. Apply this same concept to inventory management, and availability of ammo, inventory slots, etc. should be restricted. I hope HR doesn't allow you to eat your cake too.

Oddness
28th Jun 2010, 21:01
Things that we could have in the tetris inventory...hmmm.

-Weapons
-Misc objects? (ex: Ambrosia Vial, Flares)
-Armor/Camo suits?
-Ammo?
-Uninstalled Augmentations?
-Keys?
-Rebreathers/Binoculars/Goggles?
-Grenade/Mine Components?
-Health supplements (food/stimpacks/meds)
-Energy cells?

Wishful thinking.

Augs will probably take the place of all enhancement items like armor or rebreather (doubt there will be swimming anyway).

Keys? If there were keys there would be locks to pick.

Food and minor healing items are useless because of regenerating health.

This is all I see being in the game:

-Guns
-Ammo
-Mines + grenades
-Medpacks + energy packs

Remington
28th Jun 2010, 21:09
O rly? :D

I hope so. Seems a bit much to expect a whole engine to be decompiled and modded in two weeks, but hey. Tell K squared to buy Tomb Raider: Underworld, and attack it with a hex editor! :nut:

Yeah, I dared K^2 to get TR:U and hack its 3rd person, as he assures he can do in DXHR

atLaNt1s
28th Jun 2010, 21:14
quicksave, reload, quicksave, reload, and so on

pringlepower
28th Jun 2010, 21:18
Wishful thinking.

Augs will probably take the place of all enhancement items like armor or rebreather (doubt there will be swimming anyway).

Keys? If there were keys there would be locks to pick.

Food and minor healing items are useless because of regenerating health.

This is all I see being in the game:

-Guns
-Ammo
-Mines + grenades
-Medpacks + energy packs

Keys weren't used in the original either, just put into a keyring, and Ammo came with the gun, instead of a seperate slot. About food and minor healing, this is a stretch, but Dugas did say in an interview they're bringing back "nutrients" in addition to regen. But of course we have no idea what "nutrients" are.

Consuming a pack of frito-lays or orange bonanza to fix your internal bleeding and crushed ribs never flew well with me anyways

Blade_hunter
28th Jun 2010, 22:00
I won't talk about the keys, since nothing tells their presence or not even if the chance of getting them are low.

The healing items in DX 3 plays a minor role, they are an addition of the RH than being essential, An article (PC gamer, I think) told that the RH could be helped with those items in two ways, adding an health bonus (so a little bit of more resistance) and avoiding the wait time for the RH. Otherwise they are unnecessary and you can play without them even if they can help.

The ammo in DX could be stored in a fixed amount, they doesn't came specifically with the gun, we can drop the gun and have the ammo anyway even ammo of weapons we never had.
But ammo can be in the tetris inventory some games have ammo in their inventories I can mention some games having them.
At least René told me, but I don't know if that still true or not that the ammo would be in.

Guns -> Confirmed
Mine component + grenades -> Confirmed
Ammo -> question pending but practically confirmed
Health resources / Biocells -> not certain if they are in the same inventory or not but probably

Food -> Probably
Keys -> Question pending but low chance (but if they are here, they won't take inventory space)
Misc objects -> Maybe but low

Weapon upgrades -> I think not, we have to buy them
Uninstalled augs -> very low chance (we have to buy them into limb clinics)
Wearables -> I think not
Hacking tools -> No

So consider that goes from the most confirmed to the least

FrankCSIS
28th Jun 2010, 23:11
And then you just save before you take action and all of that tension is gone

Absolutely not. Two brief examples of my personal experience:

At one point which I don't distinctively remember in my first playthrough I decided to ditch medpacks altogether because I needed the room in the inventory. You can imagine this somewhat modified my play style, and greatly helped generate tension when tight spots were just a bit too tight for my liking. Of course there were still chances to heal or pick up health, and so it wasn't definitive, but regardless, for quite a few moments it did create a unique tension which is almost impossible to achieve in a setting where ressources are managed and designed for you to ensure you rarely if ever run out, or at least only do run out when it serves the plot.

Another moment which was much more definite, and to which saves were of no help to me, was when I decided to rid myself of the GEP. Much later on, having run out of LAM's, I was confronted with one mech for which I couldn't find any off switch. Without the GEP, and having used all of my LAMs for other mechs, I was left to scrounge the area for some way to get rid of that beast which was awaiting me outside the base. I eventually ended up packing explosing barrels on a rolling cart I had found somewhere in the base, pushed the damn thing so it would roll close to the bot, and blow it up to kingdom come. This moment, which I will forever remember fondly as something absolutely unique, was a direct effect of ressource management, and the general design philosophy behind it. The fact that anyone on this board, I'm sure, has a story somewhat similar and yet unique proves how much of a difference such simple mechanics can do on the overall experience.

Oh and yeah, the point of that answer to your quote is that loading up a previous save would not have helped me in the slightest, considering I had abandonned the GEP several gaming hours earlier.