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Sirviani
26th Jun 2010, 11:32
Yes, even worse. Why?

Metal Gear Solid is a stealth action game, right? Well, so is Deus Ex in a way.

If you seen the second part of the gameplay demonstration, you'll clearly notice that Metal Gear is above any stealth form applied in Deus Ex. No such thing as takedowns in Big Boss's game. It's all up to you to decide which way to make use of the several stealth options. Don't worry, you won't be bothered with a mini-intro. Pure gameplay.

So generally speaking, could you eliminate any form of stealth to this game? It doesn't fit with this game.

Oh, one more thing. What's with the crappy weapon selection menu? Isn't this a "decent" RPG ? Many people already knew that Deus Ex Invisible War failed in that way. Why repeat the same mistake?

ChfMojoRising
26th Jun 2010, 11:37
worse? But.. Metal Gear is perfectly wonderful T__T
I'm not exactly sure what you were saying in your post but the equivalent of takedowns in MGS would be pressing and holding square to grab someone, then spam pressing it to break the persons neck. Or hold the square button, then hold it tighter to choke them out non-lethally.

jtr7
26th Jun 2010, 11:54
They are likely not to have two different interfaces for PC and console, and the console template is likely to be the one UI and HUD, but we are six months away and things will change, but to what extent we don't know. We weren't supposed to see that gameplay, and I still don't know how the videos are not a violation of a non-disclosure agreement. DX:IW's changes had a lot to do with adapting to a console configuration early in the process, rather than after the fact as with DX1, and this game is still being made with consoles in mind as well as PC. Having the HUD and UI configured this way has more to do with what the devs face, and what happens with playtesting, and there's also the likelihood that they are not dismissing DX:IW, and being devs and having talked with Harvey Smith and Warren Spector in person, they certainly have some insight into what the configuration involves in building and interacting with. And then there are the playtesters. Players of DX:IW who never played DX1 or only afterward might voice strong opinion in favor of the way DX:IW does it--is that possible?

IcePure
26th Jun 2010, 12:13
Metal Gear is above any stealth form applied in Deus Ex..

Hide behind walls, camoflauge, making noises. Pretty sure DX covers all three (Thermoptic Camo, anyone?)


No such thing as takedowns in Big Boss's game.

Actually, in Big Boss's game, CQC was made a massive deal out of, and in the 4th, there were bloody quicktime events involved in the fighting (such as being strangled by a FROG).


It's all up to you to decide which way to make use of the several stealth options.

I agree with this, but both series have had several options, even Invisible War.


Don't worry, you won't be bothered with a mini-intro. Pure gameplay.

Are you talking about MGS here? Because if so, a 4 hour gameplay:16 hours cutscene ratio in MGS4 doesn't count as pure gameplay. Though if you meant that towards Deus Ex, I agree.

I've always preferred Deus Ex's stealth, since MGS mainly consists of 'wait here, move now, change camo, watch cutscene, hide behind wall, watch cutscene'. There's a reason there's only leaked footage of the game out - it's not finished. They were changing things in the original Deus Ex right up until they'd finished working on it.

AaronJ
26th Jun 2010, 12:30
Not very constructive, this thread.

Pinky_Powers
26th Jun 2010, 12:33
Not very constructive, this thread.

There's already a "constructive" thread. :)

Sirviani
26th Jun 2010, 12:41
Are you talking about MGS here? Because if so, a 4 hour gameplay:16 hours cutscene ratio in MGS4 doesn't count as pure gameplay.

You're right about the cutscenes Ice Pure, but those 4 hour gameplay moments will be far better than anything from Deus Ex HR.

I ain't a big fan of the series, simply saying that if you're gonna bring a third person perspective with stealth moments, why not make it pure gameplay? Doesn't make any sense at all.

If a console game like Metal Gear can do it, why not a game based upon one of the best games ever made on the computer platform?

Sirviani
26th Jun 2010, 12:45
worse? But.. Metal Gear is perfectly wonderful T__T
I'm not exactly sure what you were saying in your post but the equivalent of takedowns in MGS would be pressing and holding square to grab someone, then spam pressing it to break the persons neck. Or hold the square button, then hold it tighter to choke them out non-lethally.

You said it yourself Mojo Rising, you press buttons. That's what I'm talking about.

Just sitting there watching this guy do everything is boring.

ChfMojoRising
26th Jun 2010, 12:54
Different strokes I guess
That is, I find the stealth kills of Tenchu more entertaining than those two options.

Ashpolt
26th Jun 2010, 13:33
While I can't help but feel a lot of this thread is designed purely to provoke a response, I do agree that the takedowns we have are not as good an option as something like MGS3's CQC system. In that, you pressed and held one button to grab an enemy, and from there you had multiple options of what do with them: drag them around, use them as a human shield, interrogate them, cut their throats, throw them etc. That's a much more engaging experience than "get close to them, press one button and Adam will launch into a canned animation that's selected by the game rather than the player (except for whether it's lethal or non-lethal) which is totally non-interactive until it's over.

Incidentally, a system similar to MGS3's CQC could be done in first person - watch around 4:30 here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJYTgYiz3fs) - it's not exactly what I'm talking about, but it's close enough that you can see it could easily be adapted to work.

ZakKa89
26th Jun 2010, 13:41
the weapon system is fine for consoles. We will probably get a different hud for the pc where we can asign guns to numbers. just like deus ex 1. OP doesn't think straight.

beastrn
26th Jun 2010, 17:39
We will not get a different HUD.

Shralla
26th Jun 2010, 17:41
BLAH BLAH BLAH

GENERALIZATIONS AND BULL****

I LIKE TO PRETEND I HAVE INSIDER INFO AND KNOW MORE ABOUT GAME DESIGN THAN OTHER GAMERS

You and your nine posts. I don't care about e*****, but you could at least try to hang out for a while before making a thread like this.

Kodaemon
26th Jun 2010, 18:02
We will not get a different HUD.

Very interesting. What else did the voices tell you?

Keiichi81
26th Jun 2010, 19:23
You're right about the cutscenes Ice Pure, but those 4 hour gameplay moments will be far better than anything from Deus Ex HR.

Interesting that you could tell all this from a 9 minute closed-doors demonstration designed exclusively to show off takedowns...

I wish people would stop pretending like they know what the ***** they're talking about when they clearly don't.

ChfMojoRising
26th Jun 2010, 19:26
don't forget the other things they showed~ how guns work, how stealth works, how conversations work, how hacking works, multiple path styles throughout the same level, the environment~

pringlepower
26th Jun 2010, 19:41
don't forget the other things they showed~ how guns work, how stealth works, how conversations work, how hacking works, multiple path styles throughout the same level, the environment~

They didn't show off hacking and paths, just talked about them

ChfMojoRising
26th Jun 2010, 19:48
well~ they showed how you could try to handle things with convo (which the guy failed) hen showed him doing stealth, then showed him shooting the place up. That's all I meant by different path styles~ different ways of handling things.

And you're right about the hacking~ that computer was already on. My bad. Hacking was something I read about in an interview ^^;;

Maffis
26th Jun 2010, 20:01
You're right about the cutscenes Ice Pure, but those 4 hour gameplay moments will be far better than anything from Deus Ex HR.

I ain't a big fan of the series, simply saying that if you're gonna bring a third person perspective with stealth moments, why not make it pure gameplay? Doesn't make any sense at all.

If a console game like Metal Gear can do it, why not a game based upon one of the best games ever made on the computer platform?

Just shut up and get out. If you are not a big fan then why are you here saying the game will suck even when we know nothing about the game? And no, that demonstration does not count.

Sirviani
26th Jun 2010, 20:14
Just shut up and get out. If you are not a big fan then why are you here saying the game will suck even when we know nothing about the game? And no, that demonstration does not count.

If the demonstration does not count, what does? Tell me.

Sirviani
26th Jun 2010, 20:22
Just shut up and get out. If you are not a big fan then why are you here saying the game will suck even when we know nothing about the game? And no, that demonstration does not count.

By the way, this is what you said before:


My only complaint would be about the take-downs. They seem a little to cinematic for me. Will become repetitive to see such long cinematics all the time.

You seemed to agree with me there. Looks like you're just bored today, and you're paying it with me.

Keiichi81
26th Jun 2010, 21:18
If the demonstration does not count, what does? Tell me.

Probably something not from an alpha build and without god mode, all augmentations, unlimited energy, etc enabled with reduced AI designed to showcase one specific feature of the game.

gamer0004
26th Jun 2010, 21:55
We've been through this thousands of times. When the first previews started to arrive in october 2008 (IIRC) many people didn't like it and those who did continuously pointed out "we haven't seen any gameplay yet - we don't know how it will work in-game" and so on, and now we do have gameplay footage and people now say "we haven't seen non-alpha build gameplay yet". When will this end? As far as I can see, probably a year or so after release. "This is a beta build, not the final product" "This is just a demo" "This is just the unpatched game" "This is the unmodded game, they might release an SDK". I mean really, you can bet the final product will look almost exactly like this. The gameplay footage was in fact exactly the same as what they said in old previews DX3 would be, and if since then nothing has changed it certainly won't change now. Live with it.

Lrrpdude
26th Jun 2010, 22:00
Yes, even worse. Why?

Metal Gear Solid is a stealth action game, right? Well, so is Deus Ex in a way.

If you seen the second part of the gameplay demonstration, you'll clearly notice that Metal Gear is above any stealth form applied in Deus Ex. No such thing as takedowns in Big Boss's game. It's all up to you to decide which way to make use of the several stealth options. Don't worry, you won't be bothered with a mini-intro. Pure gameplay.

So generally speaking, could you eliminate any form of stealth to this game? It doesn't fit with this game.

Oh, one more thing. What's with the crappy weapon selection menu? Isn't this a "decent" RPG ? Many people already knew that Deus Ex Invisible War failed in that way. Why repeat the same mistake?

Lol, Don't buy the game then. All of your 12 posts have been about how much you hate a game that isn't even finished yet. :mad2:

Ashpolt
26th Jun 2010, 22:16
We've been through this thousands of times. When the first previews started to arrive in october 2008 (IIRC) many people didn't like it and those who did continuously pointed out "we haven't seen any gameplay yet - we don't know how it will work in-game" and so on, and now we do have gameplay footage and people now say "we haven't seen non-alpha build gameplay yet". When will this end? As far as I can see, probably a year or so after release. "This is a beta build, not the final product" "This is just a demo" "This is just the unpatched game" "This is the unmodded game, they might release an SDK". I mean really, you can bet the final product will look almost exactly like this. The gameplay footage was in fact exactly the same as what they said in old previews DX3 would be, and if since then nothing has changed it certainly won't change now. Live with it.

*Applause* My feelings exactly.

[EDIT] Though, of course, I would love to be proved wrong.

ThePrecursor
26th Jun 2010, 22:29
We've been through this thousands of times. When the first previews started to arrive in october 2008 (IIRC) many people didn't like it and those who did continuously pointed out "we haven't seen any gameplay yet - we don't know how it will work in-game" and so on, and now we do have gameplay footage and people now say "we haven't seen non-alpha build gameplay yet". When will this end? As far as I can see, probably a year or so after release. "This is a beta build, not the final product" "This is just a demo" "This is just the unpatched game" "This is the unmodded game, they might release an SDK". I mean really, you can bet the final product will look almost exactly like this. The gameplay footage was in fact exactly the same as what they said in old previews DX3 would be, and if since then nothing has changed it certainly won't change now. Live with it.

Most of people that tell you this are actually satisfied about what they see from the game themselves and just attempt to give other people (the ones that don't like what they see) hope for the game, so this forum will cease to be a massive ranting board.

Seriously people just look at it from the bright side, look at what we DO have instead of what we don't - it's just a game after all, no reason to get upset about anything.

gamer0004
26th Jun 2010, 22:40
Most of people that tell you this are actually satisfied about what they see from the game themselves and just attempt to give other people (the ones that don't like what they see) hope for the game, so this forum will cease to be a massive ranting board.

Seriously people just look at it from the bright side, look at what we DO have instead of what we don't - it's just a game after all, no reason to get upset about anything.

What we do have: an utter insult to the original Deus Ex, its fans and its creators.

Ashpolt
26th Jun 2010, 22:44
Seriously people just look at it from the bright side, look at what we DO have instead of what we don't - it's just a game after all, no reason to get upset about anything.

A great point of view - "I've still got my leg from the knee up! Thankyou, landmine, for not taking the whole thing!" Deus Ex set the bar high. Achieving "OK" is not good enough in this instance.

ThePrecursor
26th Jun 2010, 22:51
A great point of view - "I've still got my leg from the knee up! Thankyou, landmine, for not taking the whole thing!"

Comparing a war victim's loss of a leg with a video game? Wow. Just wow.

Keiichi81
26th Jun 2010, 22:57
Comparing a war victim's loss of a leg with a video game? Wow. Just wow.

The melodrama is strong with the haters on this forum.

And FYI, when people said "wait for gameplay footage", they meant just that: footage of how the game is actually going to play. A neutered demonstration with augmentations the player isn't going to have, unlimited health and energy, and reduced AI that focuses on showcasing one specific mechanic of the game is not representative of gameplay.

You can't take what you saw in the closed-doors demonstration and say "OMG takedowns are so overpowered, no skill, blah blah blah!" because you're not going to have all those augmentations at the same time, you're not going to have the energy to use them anywhere near to the extent they did in the demonstration, and you're going to be at much greater risk attempting to pull them off in the actual game.

But if haters want to hate then that's just what they're going to do...

Ilves
26th Jun 2010, 23:03
With the PR machine being as tightly controlled as it is, you can bet your sweet ass EM showed the press exactly what they meant them to see. If they wanted the audience to walk away with an idea of a subtle, 'thinking man's shooter' (not fond of that term myself), they would have succeeded in that.
I myself am not expecting any major overhauls or radical departures from the leaked footage in the final product. *sigh* apart from god mode, naturally.

Sirviani
26th Jun 2010, 23:08
The melodrama is strong with the haters on this forum.

And FYI, when people said "wait for gameplay footage", they meant just that: footage of how the game is actually going to play. A neutered demonstration with augmentations the player isn't going to have, unlimited health and energy, and reduced AI that focuses on showcasing one specific mechanic of the game is not representative of gameplay.

So what? So what?? Did I even talk about that?

I didn't even mention anything about augmentation, neither the friggin unlimited health crap, nor the reduced AI. You didn't even read my original post.

Keiichi81
26th Jun 2010, 23:11
With the PR machine being as tightly controlled as it is, you can bet your sweet ass EM showed the press exactly what they meant them to see. If they wanted the audience to walk away with an idea of a subtle, 'thinking man's shooter' (not fond of that term myself), they would have succeeded in that.
I myself am not expecting any major overhauls or radical departures from the leaked footage in the final product. *sigh* apart from god mode, naturally.

To which I would ask you, if what we saw in the leaked closed-doors E3 demonstration is 99% accurate to what the finished game is going to look and play like and Eidos Montreal was confident in their presentation being indicative of actual gameplay, why then was it a press-only behind-closed-doors demonstration? Apparently because Eidos just enjoys withholding information from their fanbase?


So what? So what?? Did I even talk about that?

I didn't even mention anything about augmentation, neither the friggin unlimited health crap, nor the reduced AI. You didn't even read my original post.

I'm sorry, was I talking to you?

Jesus, take a chill pill. Why is it that so many of the self-proclaimed "real Deus Ex fans" seem to have the temperament and maturity of 8 year olds?

Ilves
26th Jun 2010, 23:20
To which I would ask you, if what we saw in the leaked closed-doors E3 demonstration is 99% accurate to what the finished game is going to look and play like and Eidos Montreal was confident in their presentation being indicative of actual gameplay, why then was it a press-only behind-closed-doors demonstration? Apparently because Eidos just enjoys withholding information from their fanbase?



You (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1417399&postcount=8) tell (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1417405&postcount=9) me. (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1417409&postcount=11) :D

Irate_Iguana
26th Jun 2010, 23:21
Apparently because Eidos just enjoys withholding information from their fanbase?

They've been doing exactly that for over two years, so yeah. I guess EM really likes withholding information.

ChfMojoRising
26th Jun 2010, 23:24
2 years? That's just doing business in the game industry. You don't show your hand until you're getting close to release.

Dead-Eye
26th Jun 2010, 23:51
Bla bla bla. Bla bla bla, bla bla bla bla. Bla bla bla. Bla bla bla bla bla bla. Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. bla bla bla bla bla bla, bla bla. bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. bla bla bla. bla bla bla. Asparagus.

IOOI
27th Jun 2010, 00:21
The melodrama is strong with the haters on this forum.[...]
But if haters want to hate then that's just what they're going to do...

Says the person who thinks modifications are "extremely insulting" (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1425475&postcount=36) to developers work. :rolleyes:
You're just a hater too. One that hates haters.

Troll elsewhere.

Keiichi81
27th Jun 2010, 00:31
Says the person who thinks modifications are "extremely insulting" (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1425475&postcount=36) to developers work. :rolleyes:
You're just a hater too. One that hates haters.

Troll elsewhere.

I never said that mods are insulting to developers. I said that claiming that a mod is necessary to "fix" a game and make it playable simply because you personally disagree with it's design choices, however, is rather insulting to the people who's hard work went into making it.

Nice attempt though.

It might benefit you as well to learn the proper definition of "troll", as I see far too many people throwing that word around simply because they disagree with or dislike a certain poster.

IOOI
27th Jun 2010, 01:40
I never said that mods are insulting to developers. I said that claiming that a mod is necessary to "fix" a game and make it playable simply because you personally disagree with it's design choices, however, is rather insulting to the people who's hard work went into making it.

Nice attempt though.


Are you telling me that developers/designers never fail? No design has flaws?
Do you believe that everything they do is right?
Well, in that case, I have this swampland in Florida to sell you.



It might benefit you as well to learn the proper definition of "troll", as I see far too many people throwing that word around simply because they disagree with or dislike a certain poster.

One of many definitions of troll (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll):


Troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

Your first post "What's with all the haters?" (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1423703#post1423703):


I loved Deus Ex when it came out 10 years ago. I played all the way through it multiple times. I even forced myself to play through Invisible War even though I thought it was a godawful mess and it barely ran on my old computer. So when I heard that there was a trailer out for a new prequel I was all over it, and after I had watched it about a dozen times and finished changing my boxers I searched for the official website so I could discuss what looks to me to be not only an incredible continuation of a favored old series but one of the best games of E3 2010 as well, and all I find is... a bunch of haters and elitists acting like spoiled petulant babies crying over every little minute scrap of info that's been released so far because "OMGOMG it's not an exact copy of Deus Ex 1 but with better graphics! Eidos is ruining it because there's regenerating health now instead of giant cartoony health packs wtfwtfwtf!!!1! They're dumbing it down for consoles! *RAAAAAAAAAGE*"

It's not the year 2000 anymore. Trying to release an old school game exactly like the original Deus Ex nowadays would be marketing suicide. I'm surprised they've even kept the "tetris" inventory, to be honest. You may not like it, but things like regenerating health, condensed dialog wheels, automated takedowns, etc are the future. Or at the very least they're the present. I can't fault Eidos/Square for getting with the program. If they can keep the original's spirit alive (and all signs point to that being the case from what I've seen), then I'm certainly not going to complain if it's wrapped in a shiny new package.

At the very least, wait until you actually have enough info to know what you're talking about before you start readying the torches and pitchforks and marching on Montreal, because half of what I see people raging and throwing tantrums over is just conjecture and assumption at this point.

Nice attempt *troll*.

Ashpolt
27th Jun 2010, 01:47
Comparing a war victim's loss of a leg with a video game? Wow. Just wow.

Jesus wept, lighten up. That was not suggesting that the two were comparable in terms of severity.

[EDIT] Want a less "severe" comparison? "Oh my dog has eaten half of my dinner, thanks dog for only eating half!" There you go.

Invictus Sol
27th Jun 2010, 02:04
You didn't even read my original post.

He sure didn't miss much.



Nice attempt *troll*.

I've agreed with the majority of what I've seen you post (or even if I don't agree, per se, you raise legitimate points), IOOI, but I think you're conflating trolling with someone who wrote a post in which they expressed some frustration with the "haters". I wouldn't equate anything I've read from Keiichi81 with being a troll, honestly (I actually agree with him that the term is being thrown around way too loosely). It's like anyone on here, you go a little stir-crazy with the endlessly circular arguments. Maybe he shouldn't have written it exactly that way, but it's not trolling, IMO.

Keiichi81
27th Jun 2010, 02:42
Are you telling me that developers/designers never fail? No design has flaws?
Do you believe that everything they do is right?
Well, in that case, I have this swampland in Florida to sell you.

No, but if a developer says "I'm going to make a third person shooter with regenerating health," you don't say that you're going to fix their unplayable mess by modding it to be a first-person shooter with health packs. Not unless you're deliberately trying to be an ass anyway.



One of many definitions of troll (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll):

Your first post "What's with all the haters?" (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1423703#post1423703):

Nice attempt *troll*.

Depends on what you would consider "deliberately provocative" and "with...intention of causing maximum disruption and argument." By your loose interpretation, I'm sure I could go back through your post history and find a few examples of where you were less than pleasant or irritable in conversation. Doesn't make you a troll. Nor does 1 of my 55 total posts being possibly considered a troll change the fact that what you linked earlier wasn't trollish in the least.

pringlepower
27th Jun 2010, 02:47
No, but if a developer says "I'm going to make a third person shooter with regenerating health," you don't say that you're going to fix their unplayable mess by modding it to be a first-person shooter with health packs. Not unless you're deliberately trying to be an ass anyway.



Depends on what you would consider "deliberately provocative" and "with...intention of causing maximum disruption and argument." By your loose interpretation, I'm sure I could go back through your post history and find a few examples of where you were less than pleasant or irritable in conversation. Doesn't make you a troll. Nor does 1 of my 55 total posts being possibly considered a troll change the fact that what you linked earlier wasn't trollish in the least.

If passionately defending classic DE values and criticizing next-gen games, the gaming industry, and all new features of DE:HR isn't trolling, neither is passionately criticizing the criticizers.

Anasumtj
27th Jun 2010, 02:55
I never said that mods are insulting to developers. I said that claiming that a mod is necessary to "fix" a game and make it playable simply because you personally disagree with it's design choices, however, is rather insulting to the people who's hard work went into making it.

Nice attempt though.

I have a certain The Elder Scrolls game you should play...

Also, withholding the gameplay video and allowing only journalists to disperse any gameplay information (and endless praise) was purely a marketing tactic. I highly doubt it has anything to do with disappointing the fanbase. The footage would have been appealing to plenty of modern gamers and people who have no familiarity with the DX series, and EM certainly doesn't give a damn about the opinions expressed on this forum.

Keiichi81
27th Jun 2010, 02:56
If passionately defending classic DE values and criticizing next-gen games, the gaming industry, and all new features of DE:HR isn't trolling, neither is passionately criticizing the criticizers.

I never said it was trolling. I said it was insulting.

EDIT: Wait. I think I might've misread that. In any case, the above still stands.

Keiichi81
27th Jun 2010, 03:02
I have a certain The Elder Scrolls game you should play...

Also, withholding the gameplay video and allowing only journalists to disperse any gameplay information (and endless praise) was purely a marketing tactic. I highly doubt it has anything to do with disappointing the fanbase. The footage would have been appealing to plenty of modern gamers and people who have no familiarity with the DX series, and EM certainly doesn't give a damn about the opinions expressed on this forum.

Which proves... what, exactly? By your own admission, the footage EM showed behind closed doors at E3 would've appealed to the "mainstream" fanbase they're constantly accused of targeting and you state that they apparently don't give a crap about this community or any complaints that it would generate. So why exactly would they withhold that footage from the mainstream public if they felt it was a complete representation of their vision?

Anasumtj
27th Jun 2010, 03:16
...Marketing? It was in the second sentence, dude.

They have a good amount of time until they need to release this baby. It's easier to get excited about the intangible and get word of mouth going. Put out a few glowing first impressions and inform players' judgment before they see it themselves.

Lots of companies do this. I'm surprised this sounds alien to you.

pringlepower
27th Jun 2010, 03:18
I never said it was trolling. I said it was insulting.

EDIT: Wait. I think I might've misread that. In any case, the above still stands.

If it's confusing, sorry. I'm supporting you

IOOI
27th Jun 2010, 06:08
No, but if a developer says "I'm going to make a third person shooter with regenerating health," you don't say that you're going to fix their unplayable mess by modding it to be a first-person shooter with health packs. Not unless you're deliberately trying to be an ass anyway.

Right now by some fans standards it's a mess. So a fix for it would please them.
Mods are completely optional. I don't see the problem. Don't you take a critic?


Depends on what you would consider "deliberately provocative" and "with...intention of causing maximum disruption and argument."
By your loose interpretation, I'm sure I could go back through your post history and find a few examples of where you were less than pleasant or irritable in conversation. Doesn't make you a troll. Nor does 1 of my 55 total posts being possibly considered a troll change the fact that what you linked earlier wasn't trollish in the least.

Well, ok, continue posting like that (your first post) and I might as well start calling you an Optimistic White Fairy. But then don't start complaining.

Try to go through my post history, If you find one post where I'm less than pleasant or irritable consider us even.

See you later. :wave:

jtr7
27th Jun 2010, 06:42
Title: Community Manager
Reporting to: Marketing Manager

Job Summary:

* Lead the community efforts for the various games of the studio and animate the studio’s own social media and community channels
* Develop the community for established and high-profile gaming brands:

Duties:
1. Define the strategy and tools to grow the community;
2. Initiate the production of key assets such as dedicated community video blogs, podcasts, screenshots, clues and tips related to the game;
3. Moderate and animate relevant forums and blogs and initiate new debates, content and images of the development team;
4. Implant a monitoring matrix in order to evaluate the success and the return of investment of initiatives and projects for the community and network;
5. Represent the ideas and suggestions of the community to the development teams

* Manage post launch support communication on applicable situations such as patch content, status and delivery.
* Develop and manage mod-making community.
* Develop and manage successful betas and report internally on community feedback to improve final product.
* Carry out event organization for the community and/or participation to the events related to the community;
* Oversee the tools for the community in order to optimize the choices made and meet the changing needs of members.




Yes, as rude as it is indeed to declare to a game developer that their game needs changing, it's also a reality when dealing with millions of people. Not everyone can enjoy a game the way it was made, and sometimes, changing the things that kill the joy make it possible to enjoy everything else, and as long as EM gets paid for the copy that gets modded, it's a compromise they can live with. By nurturing a modding community, they avoid bigger troubles, and can increase profits.

ThePrecursor
27th Jun 2010, 07:56
Jesus wept, lighten up. That was not suggesting that the two were comparable in terms of severity.

[EDIT] Want a less "severe" comparison? "Oh my dog has eaten half of my dinner, thanks dog for only eating half!" There you go.

My point is that getting upset about a videogame is kind of pathetic. It isn't comparable to anything in real life, really.

pringlepower
27th Jun 2010, 08:00
My point is that getting upset about a videogame is kind of pathetic. It isn't comparable to anything in real life, really.

Oh you only put whipped cream on half of my caesar salad, thank god you didn't put it on all!

That seems like a trivial real-life issue

ThePrecursor
27th Jun 2010, 08:07
Oh you only put whipped cream on half of my caesar salad, thank god you didn't put it on all!

That seems like a trivial real-life issue

So now you are saying that having issues with a video game is trivial (you wouldn't compare it with something trivial if this wasn't what you implied)? So you are actually saying you are kind of pathetic for getting upset about changes to game? :lol:

pringlepower
27th Jun 2010, 08:47
So now you are saying that having issues with a video game is trivial (you wouldn't compare it with something trivial if this wasn't what you implied)? So you are actually saying you are kind of pathetic for getting upset about changes to game? :lol:

What, me? I'm new to this thread, you've been arguing with someone else the entire time.
Anyways I like Deus Ex as much as caesar salad. And I love my caesar salad. However, if someone put whipped cream on my caesar salad I'll complain for a while and then just give up and grab a bowl of some chinese noodle salad (say Civ IV) or just turn to some chicken noodle soup (which shall be the metaphor for a book).

Ashpolt
27th Jun 2010, 12:40
My point is that getting upset about a videogame is kind of pathetic. It isn't comparable to anything in real life, really.

Well why are you on this forum if you don't care either way about the development of this game? Yes, it's "only a videogame," but its outcome will likely affect my life to some degree (namely, whether I will play this game or not, and whether another proper Deus Ex game will ever be made or not.) It certainly will affect me, on a grand scale, more than a dog eating half of my dinner. Once. Besides, you're the one who's arguing that we should be thankful to Eidos Montreal for making another Deus Ex game at all: why should we be thankful to them for something that, in your opinion, isn't important?

tl:dr: You obviously care about what happens with this game or else you wouldn't be here arguing with me.

@pringlepower: Love your metaphors dude!

IOOI
27th Jun 2010, 19:39
My point is that getting upset about a videogame is kind of pathetic. It isn't comparable to anything in real life, really.

A fan getting upset at any kind of game is really pathetic, but we see it every day.
A professional getting down because fans don't like certain aspects of a game is really pathetic too.
So what gives?

I think it would be better to accept that this things move with our hearts and minds, like it's supposed to be. The best way to avoid this would be by starting a new IP.

PenguinsFriend
28th Jun 2010, 16:15
You're right about the cutscenes Ice Pure, but those 4 hour gameplay moments will be far better than anything from Deus Ex HR.

I ain't a big fan of the series, simply saying that if you're gonna bring a third person perspective with stealth moments, why not make it pure gameplay? Doesn't make any sense at all.

If a console game like Metal Gear can do it, why not a game based upon one of the best games ever made on the computer platform?

Listen here you little drunk monkey - DEHR will leave MGS4 laying in the dust - if not, there's a poster on here who is gonna eat his fingers over the Interweb :D

ThePrecursor
28th Jun 2010, 16:24
Well why are you on this forum if you don't care either way about the development of this game?

tl:dr: You obviously care about what happens with this game or else you wouldn't be here arguing with me.


I never said I didn't care about its development, all I said is that some people on this forum are continuously attacking the game for changes made to the gameplay because it upsets them,while it's really just a game - Thus I believe there is not a good reason to get upset about.

So yes, I do care about what happens with this game.

Pretentious Old Man.
28th Jun 2010, 16:31
I never said I didn't care about its development, all I said is that some people on this forum are continuously attacking the game for changes made to the gameplay because it upsets them,while it's really just a game - Thus I believe there is not a good reason to get upset about.

So yes, I do care about what happens with this game.

You make out that this is the only game that people have EVER complained about, the ONLY recent game to have "dumbing down" issues.

Erm, it couldn't be, by some chance, that this is a problem concomitant with the entirety of the industry, and that fans are wary due to many, many past disappointments?

Please do not be so naive as to think we live in a world with a lovely games industry focused on creating "great products". We don't. Eidos are only getting this treatment because they can't be arsed to come on here and tell us any differently.

ThePrecursor
28th Jun 2010, 20:25
You make out that this is the only game that people have EVER complained about, the ONLY recent game to have "dumbing down" issues.

Erm, it couldn't be, by some chance, that this is a problem concomitant with the entirety of the industry, and that fans are wary due to many, many past disappointments?

Please do not be so naive as to think we live in a world with a lovely games industry focused on creating "great products". We don't. Eidos are only getting this treatment because they can't be arsed to come on here and tell us any differently.

I never said or even implied that this is the only game with potential issues. Neither did I say I believe in a world where there are only good games. I know that there a LOT of bad games out there.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

neilthecellist
29th Jun 2010, 19:08
From the gameplay videos that were leaked onto the internet so far for DX: HR, I really don't think it looks worse than Metal Gear Solid 4. Or better. In fact, we won't even know until the game comes out.

And you guys, get a room.

singularity
29th Jun 2010, 19:31
We will not get a different HUD.

Obviously you've never been involved in the design process of a video game before.

At this stage of the design, the HUD and menu options for DXHR are almost certianly filler for the demo. I thought this was obvious.

HUD design and menus are typicly one of the LAST things to get ironed out before a release. The game isn't even done yet -- with a launch early next year, I would be surprised if the game is in Alpha yet...

They are still crushing bugs and working on balancing. HUD and menus are the last things on their mind... and will be until about 2 months before completion.

JackShandy
3rd Jul 2010, 13:12
I'm not entirely sure I understand this thread at all. This is a debate about whether Deus Ex 3 will be worse than MGS? The whole thing seems to have devolved into another "DE3 SUCKS" thread, so I guess it doesn't matter.

But really, sirviani, if you're still around- what were you talking about? It seems like you're calling MGS terrible in the thread title, and then suggesting that it's pure gameplay, "no need for a mini-intro..."

Ilves
4th Jul 2010, 11:21
Seeing MGS and DX in the same sentence evokes something in me… :D

I’ve been replaying bits of MGS4 over the last week with HR’s implementation of 3rd person stealth very much in mind, and the following random thoughts came up.

- MGS(4)'s cutscenes are a massive pain if you're not in the mood. Even when you are in the mood. There's no defending them, other than the production values are through the roof. /capt.obv. But at least they don't intrude in gameplay (which I believe is the OP's main point?) If you skip 'em, you're left with 100% pure gameplay, right down to the 'takedowns'. Keep your cinema out of my game. And don't take control away at the pinnacle of action! When you start 'rewarding' stealth, you make the stealthy approach the high point of the situation, where it should be the execution of the attack itself, not the lead up. I'm sure it's all very Freudian.

- I love the MGS series with a vengeance, but in my experience its stealth system is broken. In essence MGS never managed to depart from the 1987 top down 100% cheat-o-vision game design.

On the other hand DX style first person form for me is the king of game design. It’s the most natural, logical, immersive and versatile from of video entertainment. Stealth in 1st person feels instinctive and straightforward; no need for band aid gimmicks like camouflage meters, or ‘awareness rings’, or of course the stealth genre defeating radar.

- In MGS4 the full blown 1st person adds to atmosphere & sense of immersion more than it does to gameplay. In any DX game, 3rd person has nothing to add to gameplay because it wasn’t broken in the first place.

- Idea for console stealth game perfection: Strictly first person, enhanced with the stroke-of-brilliance MGS2 heart beat force feedback –granted, a gimmick- to indicate close enemy proximity. Maximum thrills ensue.

Pinky_Powers
4th Jul 2010, 12:08
Being able to blend in with your surroundings is very important for stealth.

Just two days ago I was at my mates house, and as usual, we ended up walking around late at night. We made our way to this private cemetery.
I was feeling all sneaky and $h1t, and noticed my two companions were enamored with this one tombstone. So I quickly snuck off behind this tree and disappeared into shadow.
Naturally, being in a graveyard at night only made my vanishing all the more troubling to my friends. But they couldn't find me.

My point is, there is a lot more to stealth than what we had in DX1. I couldn't be nearly as sneaky as a I wanted to be in that game. Folding yourself up behind whatever your environment has to offer is a huge part of stealth. As is camouflage and cloaking and being able to move silently.

You might not like what they're doing in Human Revolution, but it's only right and good that they branch out with their mechanics; the original was rather poor in its individual parts.

As for me, I'm loving the third-person cover system as it relates to both stealth and combat. I do hope they find a way to make the game challenging though.

But Metal Gear Solid is challenging, and so is Splinter Cell... and so was Batman Arkhem Asylum for that matter. So perhaps its foolishness to think that merely being able to see around a corner is a win-cheat.

Ilves
4th Jul 2010, 12:42
So I quickly snuck off behind this tree and disappeared into shadow.
Naturally, being in a graveyard at night only made my vanishing all the more troubling to my friends. But they couldn't find me.

Beautiful. :D


You might not like what they're doing in Human Revolution, but it's only right and good that they branch out with their mechanics; the original was rather poor in its individual parts.

In a true stealth game I'd definitely expect some kind of blending in mechanic, be it camo or shadow based. Octocamo was fun. However I recall a dev stated almost literally that HR will not feature stealth- shooter- and RPG perfection, but just like DX should be judged by the sum of its parts. Which is perfectly fine.

To be honest, DX offered me all I needed in terms of stealth, but yeah, that’s personal. At this point, other than 3rd person corner view, what else new does HR bring in the stealth department, really?


[...] perhaps its foolishness to think that merely being able to see around a corner is a win-cheat.

Check out the leaked footage, part one, around 00:08:20, Adam entering the catacombs beneath the Hive. The 1st person sequence where he descends the stairs and nears the junction is perfect. You're somewhere you shouldn’t be, the possibility of someone being down that hallway, maybe hearing his footsteps, not knowing how far the guy will stroll down the hallway, whether you’re safe being where you are or not...

But then –whoosh- corner view, oh, right, there’s the guy, turns his back, sneak up behind, takedown, blue sparks fly, done and done.

Yeah, maybe it is about personal preference. But 3rd person making stealth easier (or less tense, let's put it that way) seems like a no brainer to me. If they were to compensate by upping difficulty with 3-4 shot kills, then it'll only add to frustration in my book.

edit: ehhm, okay, corner view that stealth bit was completely optional.

Shralla
4th Jul 2010, 19:28
But then –whoosh- corner view, oh, right, there’s the guy, turns his back, sneak up behind, takedown, blue sparks fly, done and done.

Leaning allowed the exact same thing, especially in light of how RETARDED the AI in the first game is.

Ilves
5th Jul 2010, 13:32
Leaning allowed the exact same thing, especially in light of how RETARDED the AI in the first game is.

That's a flaw in AI, not a gameplay staple though.

Anasumtj
5th Jul 2010, 17:36
Leaning allowed the exact same thing, especially in light of how RETARDED the AI in the first game is.

WOW, I NEVER HEARD THAT POINT BEFORE.

Thanks, dude. This changes everything.

JackShandy
5th Jul 2010, 23:39
That's a flaw in AI, not a gameplay staple though.

The AI HAD to be flawed to allow the first person stealth they wanted. It wasn't a technical problem with the level of AI they could program- just having the soldiers see JC instantly would have been a piece of cake- they had to make them dumb as two bricks in order to make their stealth work. It was a game design decision, not a technical one. You want first-person lean-out-of-the-corner stealth, you're going to have to have thick-as-two-bricks soldiers. They're inseperable.

Vasarto
6th Jul 2010, 07:05
You DO realize that the entire premise of Deus Ex is to "choose"......right?

You...DO get that.......right? :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

If you ever played the first game which you haven't...you would know this. If you were a fan of the series you would know that Metal Gear Solid is an action based game that has a heavy dependence on stealth combat....of course it will NEVER compair to splinter cell in stealth and take downs etc...but that is because splinter is meant to be a pure
stealth with combat thrown in if you are discovered.

Dues Ex is in very little ways an RPG...also like in all RPG they have a stealth class....since this only has elements there is no class. Furthermore Deus Ex is not pure combat with RPG elements thrown in just to enhance your weapons skills....Therefore you would not have multitool and hacking and lockpicking skills and stuff like that.

You are just *****ing a fit because you are seeing them make a change to the series and not just making it Deus Ex 1 with New Graphics. If they did that with today's games enhancements and the expectation of the quallity of the games today it would fail, Stealth is nessassary so players may choose to do so and since the old tech would not allow them to do anywhere near half of what it can today...back than...well if they could had made it look like JC could punch threw a wall with the enhanced muscles they would had back then....the tech did not exist..

Just like the movie JAWS could had been much better if they had the tech to make it do what they wanted.

IOOI
7th Jul 2010, 01:59
The AI HAD to be flawed to allow the first person stealth they wanted. It wasn't a technical problem with the level of AI they could program- just having the soldiers see JC instantly would have been a piece of cake- they had to make them dumb as two bricks in order to make their stealth work. It was a game design decision, not a technical one. You want first-person lean-out-of-the-corner stealth, you're going to have to have thick-as-two-bricks soldiers. They're inseperable.

I always find those moments to be funny :D, but they helped creating the tension.
You start to ask yourself "Did he see me?", "Will he turn on the alarm?", "Will he come after me?", (imagination) that's precious.

Leo687
11th Jul 2010, 14:05
my thoughts are this: why complain about a game until its finished? i mean if its in pre-alpha stages and the ai is run down so as to show off only 1 aspect of the game then theres no need its like watching 10 mins of a film and deciding its crap assuming the other 1hr and 35 mins is also going to be crap moral is dont compalin about something until its finished then if you dont like it complain

TheUnbeholden
2nd Dec 2010, 16:21
You are just *****ing a fit because you are seeing them make a change to the series and not just making it Deus Ex 1 with New Graphics. If they did that with today's games enhancements and the expectation of the quallity of the games today it would fail

Fail my ass, a tried and true formula that works isn't going to fail... and where not saying to make the game 100% like the original Deus Ex with good graphics, where saying improve upon what the previous game has, by using it as a base, and refining it one step at a time, the first Deus Ex wasn't perfect, no game is perfect. Take what didn't work so well and change it, test it, and don't fix what isn't broken.

Health regen isn't necessary for a game that is a bit slower like Deus Ex 3, its just lazy design not to have balance the games medkits supply, but the medkits weren't perfect though, being able to heal yourself in the middle of combat was a bit ridiculous, adding some sort of animation to go through before your healed and if your shot while going through this animation then the healing fails, thats a example of refining the game.

The combining of augmentations and skills into one system sounds intriguing and its innovative, we'll have to wait and see what its like.


Stealth for instance could be much more intense, where you would really have to pay attention and can get caught very fast if your to impatient. Deus Ex had more leniency, so making Deus Ex 3 harder sounds like a good plan. Leaning would not expose you unless the enemy is very close, but if you step out in an enemies line of sight, you get caught almost instantly ... that would be a very welcome change...

Third person sounds for cover, is basically a cheap way to see where the enemies are, its not anything innovative but treading the same ground. Mixture of both first person and third person is not innovative when Rainbow six Vegas 1 and 2 have done that already. VTM bloodlines and Thief Deadly shadows allowed you to choose between first and third person, and both had stealth... and let me tell you the stealth worked quite well, either way. A refinement can get it perfectly right, without the need for third person.

Takedowns where you go into these minicut scenes and watch you kill them I would say that a takedown doesn't need third person, unless you want to see your beautiful character model do some cool moves, sounds like it would get boring seeing after the 10th time though.. you can still make some simple animations in first person without alot bobbing of the camera (you don't want people to get motion sickness), I've seen games like Condemned do that nicely... actually I would say that was one of the first games I've seen that did first person fighting very brutal and realistic, but you also had a sense of control.

Really, you don't need third person, its just a stylish choice... but you loose immersiveness. You have a sort of disconnection between you and the player, you end up looking more at yourself, then at the environment, you play less attention to your surroundings. Deus Ex doesn't seem like that sort of game to me...


Nobody wants a reskinned DX with a few patches... I hope. What they're looking for is an improvement to the Deus Ex elements, like what Riddick managed to do with FP stealth and melee. Personally I'm not as anal about the first-person, or the cover, but don't just accuse them of wanting another carbon-copy DE

Yes I forgot about that one. Riddick, escape from Butcher Bay was a good way to combine First person and third person and being able to switch between the 2, and stealth was also done remarkbly well, I would say that game delivered on all aspects.

3rdmillhouse
2nd Dec 2010, 16:33
Are you talking about MGS here? Because if so, a 4 hour gameplay:16 hours cutscene ratio in MGS4 doesn't count as pure gameplay.

http://stng.36el.com/st-tng/cast/images/stewart.jpg

Indeed.

cartridge
2nd Dec 2010, 16:44
The MGS series is hugely successful, and for good reason. And the whole "x hours of cut scenes" argument is so unfounded. The gameplay to cinematic ratio is much more in favor of gameplay, for anyone that has actually bothered to play through an entire game instead of drawing conclusions from a few bias and sorely inaccurate observations.

Anasumtj
2nd Dec 2010, 17:15
I've only played MGS2, and while there may have been more gameplay than cutscenes.... There were still a **** TON of cutscenes. To the point where it actually marred the product.

Fox89
2nd Dec 2010, 17:17
I've only played MGS2, and while there may have been more gameplay than cutscenes.... There were still a **** TON of cutscenes. To the point where it actually marred the product.

Play one of the better MGS games, your opinion may differ :) They all follow a similar formula but 2 is by far the weakest. Play 3, that's the best.

Unstoppable
2nd Dec 2010, 17:20
http://gentoo-blog.de/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/please-do-not-feed-the-troll.jpg

cartridge
2nd Dec 2010, 17:21
I've only played MGS2, and while there may have been more gameplay than cutscenes.... There were still a **** TON of cutscenes.

That's nice. Shame of Kojima for telling a story.


To the point where it actually marred the product.

To the point it was an enormous success with millions of fans and transformed Kojima into an industry legend. Yeah, "marred."

Coyotegrey
2nd Dec 2010, 17:31
Move along. Nothing to see here.