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Pretentious Old Man.
24th Jun 2010, 07:38
I anticipate that about 80% of you will have seen this already, but this is Ion Storm's Invisible War Post-Mortem, which acts as a neat little analysis of what went wrong.

EM would do well to listen, and learn. Enjoy.

PART ONE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTWvsGA77T4&feature=related

PART TWO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o31W_E73_U

Pinky_Powers
24th Jun 2010, 08:15
Those are good.

Angel-A
24th Jun 2010, 08:19
Is is just me or is that for DX1?

MaxxQ1
24th Jun 2010, 08:19
Those are good.

And suprisingly, even brutally, honest. I remember when these vids first came to light. It was definitely an eye-opener for those that were pretty vocal in their... dislike, shall we say?... of Harvey Smith for screwing up nearly everything, and the utter disbelief that Warren allowed it to happen.

Of course, there were also the expected I told you so's.

@Angel-A: Yeah, these vids are for DX. There's others floating around for IW - at least I think there were others...

Ah...found it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGIdYl2oN74&feature=related

ChfMojoRising
24th Jun 2010, 08:52
That bit about the swimming augs in the end were very interesting. Funny how players can kind of dupe themselves into seeing those as different due to one being made of many parts and the other being an all-in-one package.

xsamitt
24th Jun 2010, 12:32
JC VS Cat Naticus 1st person of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA0LtO8D2Ok

Pinky_Powers
24th Jun 2010, 12:50
JC VS Cat Naticus 1st person of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VA0LtO8D2Ok

:lol:

I liked it, quite a lot!

mr_cyberpunk
24th Jun 2010, 13:01
of Harvey Smith for screwing up nearly everything, and the utter disbelief that Warren allowed it to happen.


I would like to point out that warren cannot be blamed for the mess, Invisible War wasn't really Warren's project, in an article that was in PCPowerPlay he stated that Harvey was now playing a much larger role in the team. Warren was unfortunately forced to be more of a project manager this time around than a lead designer due to the fact that this was a multiplatform release and would be tightly run next to yet another project on the same scale and scope- I think Warren deserves a lot of credit here because to be honest, I don't know many developers that could pull off 2 games within a year of each other and still come out with something that may not have lived up to their predecessors but weren't complete and utter failures- Invisible War is still a game, its still a good game with solid gameplay- it just doesn't share much in common with Deus Ex 1 design wise, that's why it sucked (hence the fan rage towards Deus Ex 3- its like "here we go again". Please definately prove us wrong EM.. but somehow I'm doubtful what with this being their first ever title.)

Eidos was 100% focused on shutting Ion Storm down even as Deus Ex's development was coming to an end, it only allowed the company to continue developing because of Deus Ex's surprise success- this meant eidos now had some IPs it could exploit before shutting down the company, shutting down Ion Storm was an inevitability, even if Invisible War and Theif 3 had been moreso successful they still would have been booted.

Anyway back to Warren and Harvey, Warren established in an interview that himself and Harvey were having some massive conflicts on design choices that Harvey made, specifically the removal of the skill system and universal ammo. Warren hated the ideas of Universal Ammo, he also hated that Harvey was going to remove the skill system that he praised Harvey for so much in the first game- Harvey was thinking about "Accessibility" and Warren thinking about the fans of the first game. In the end Harvey won the arguement, I think because firstly Warren was under pressure by Eidos to make a return on the project, and because in the end this was the best move for Market Share.. but not so much for the consumer confidence and satisfaction. Invisible War was under developed because Eidos sabotaged it with constantly shorter deadlines, Ion was under a lot of pressure to deliver. Theif 3 came out a year later and only a few months after we got word "Warren Spector has left Ion Storm" only stating that he wanted to go and start his own developer up- suspected because he was fed up with Eidos' treatment of the team and wanted to control his own deadlines for a change. Understandable. (his joining with Disney however was a bit strange- but its suspected because he actually liked disney and liked the opportunty to work with their IPs- he has a lot of respect for the classic animators.)

I wish I could find the article for more proof of this, but rest assured Warren was well aware that Unviseral Ammo and the removal of the skills (and even Inventory) was a bad move- he shouldn't be blamed for it, Harvey should because it was his idea- but granted he really only did it because of 1. Market Trends and 2. Eidos' pressure to deliver a return ASAP.

And to be honest I doubt Eidos has changed at all. Thank god Square Enix owns them now.

PenguinsFriend
24th Jun 2010, 13:23
^ interesting post - thanks for sharing

Tycho
24th Jun 2010, 17:05
If you listen to the right video (the one about DE:IW), there is one very importent point:

If you take millions of $ to make a game, you cannot listen to some guys in the forum, that scream: "You are ruining Deus Ex, because (insert Health Reg, 3rd/1st person or whatever you like here) is ****!" Because that is not your target audience, but that is most likely the same kind of person that has told them that Deus Ex was an big failure back then...

cya
Tycho

MaxxQ1
24th Jun 2010, 17:19
If you listen to the right video (the one about DE:IW), there is one very importent point:

If you take millions of $ to make a game, you cannot listen to some guys in the forum, that scream: "You are ruining Deus Ex, because (insert Health Reg, 3rd/1st person or whatever you like here) is ****!" Because that is not your target audience, but that is most likely the same kind of person that has told them that Deus Ex was an big failure back then...

cya
Tycho

Watch it again. He did *not* say they listened to "some guys in the forum", he said they listened to "good friends" that they trusted. He also pretty much said that they ignored the users (us).

Anasumtj
24th Jun 2010, 17:45
That bit about the swimming augs in the end were very interesting. Funny how players can kind of dupe themselves into seeing those as different due to one being made of many parts and the other being an all-in-one package.

It's not duping oneself. It's pulling me into the fantasy, "control your destiny" kind of ****. I like that I constructed a character who developed proficiency with skills and abilities, rather than swapping out an aug that just flat-out gave me what I wanted. Besides, a little overlap and redundancy frees up your gameplay possibilities.

ChfMojoRising
24th Jun 2010, 17:47
Same difference, hehe

Anasumtj
24th Jun 2010, 17:55
If you listen to the right video (the one about DE:IW), there is one very importent point:

If you take millions of $ to make a game, you cannot listen to some guys in the forum, that scream: "You are ruining Deus Ex, because (insert Health Reg, 3rd/1st person or whatever you like here) is ****!" Because that is not your target audience, but that is most likely the same kind of person that has told them that Deus Ex was an big failure back then...

cya
Tycho

No, not really.

What he says is a bit vague, but it sounds to me like friends in the industry told them DX was a failure and needed to be fixed. That's what led to stupid decisions in IW's development: caving into industry trends and a focus on immediate accessibility. The doomsayers in IO and PDX's forums turned out to be right, just as I'm sure the same ones here regarding HR will be.

The only difference is that, now with Square's financial backing and marketing, they can get away with all these choices with a new, larger audience. They don't have to worry any more about appealing to longtime fans.


Same difference, hehe

A game experience can be more than the sum of its parts, which DX achieved. HR seems to be all about its parts, and I think it will be a lesser title because of it.

nathanj
24th Jun 2010, 20:45
in the second interview he said that he listened to his designer friends and NOT the players. which might be repeating with deus ex 3. fortunately im hoping they are going to give choices for the more aggregious design flaws. they already said that the coversystem wont activate until you press a key....which is fine by me.

PenguinsFriend
24th Jun 2010, 20:51
DXIW sucked becuase nothing I did mattered - at all. Choices without concequenses do not punish nor do they reward; they simply bore

Bluey71
24th Jun 2010, 21:24
Thank god Square Enix owns them now.

I don't know anything about Square at all - so I am not taking the pi*s when I ask why is it so good?

IOOI
24th Jun 2010, 21:27
That bit about the swimming augs in the end were very interesting. Funny how players can kind of dupe themselves into seeing those as different due to one being made of many parts and the other being an all-in-one package.


Same difference, hehe

Yeah, it's funny because Designers sometimes have great difficulties understanding peoples fantasies, because they stand away from those who used/bought previous products - precisely those that could give them good feedback - and because of their mentality built around making something new. The problem is that new is not necessarily equal to better.

For instance look at Universal Ammo. It was done so players could think harder and not waste ammo. In the end it was one of the most criticised things.

Think about it. ;)

Marses
24th Jun 2010, 21:33
I anticipate that about 80% of you will have seen this already, but this is Ion Storm's Invisible War Post-Mortem, which acts as a neat little analysis of what went wrong.

EM would do well to listen, and learn. Enjoy.

PART ONE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTWvsGA77T4&feature=related

PART TWO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o31W_E73_U

Yeah. I'm sure they've never seen this. I mean, 80% of us have, as anticipated by you, but since we're so much more knowledgeable and passionate about the game than the developers of HR, I also bet they haven't seen it.

ChfMojoRising
24th Jun 2010, 21:40
Never played DX or DXIW~ I understand having different ammo for different guns but since I haven't played IW, I dunno what kind of effect universal ammo had.

I do get that there needs to be a balance between easy and complex~ I guess DX had more complex inventory management, while IW made it too simple? I totally get that~ Are you saying IW's swim aug was too simple?

Manho221
24th Jun 2010, 21:55
I could listen to those two talk about this for hours.

Anasumtj
24th Jun 2010, 22:00
Yeah. I'm sure they've never seen this. I mean, 80% of us have, as anticipated by you, but since we're so much more knowledgeable and passionate about the game than the developers of HR, I also bet they haven't seen it.

Totally not what he was saying, bro.

Don't be like that.

Daedalus CiarĂ¡n
24th Jun 2010, 22:11
I could listen to those two talk about this for hours.

Same. You should look up Warren's series of lectures on gaming, they were all recorded like this one. I think they're on Gametrailers... but I can't remember now for certain. But they're worth finding just to hear Warren talk about game design, story, and what makes games unique against all other mediums of story telling. Everything he says should be written down and every game designer in the world should be forced to read it cover to cover.

Fluffis
25th Jun 2010, 00:30
Never played DX or DXIW~ I understand having different ammo for different guns but since I haven't played IW, I dunno what kind of effect universal ammo had.


The result, for me, usually, was that when I wanted to shoot a rocket at something, I didn't have the ammo since I'd had to shoot stuff on the way there.

Imagine the annoyance of discovering that you have one "pip" too few, when trying to use a particular weapon, because you had just used another, completely different, weapon. That was my main beef with it.

ChfMojoRising
25th Jun 2010, 00:46
The result, for me, usually, was that when I wanted to shoot a rocket at something, I didn't have the ammo since I'd had to shoot stuff on the way there.

Imagine the annoyance of discovering that you have one "pip" too few, when trying to use a particular weapon, because you had just used another, completely different, weapon. That was my main beef with it.

Okay, yeah~ that sounds like it sucks lol.

Fluffis
25th Jun 2010, 00:58
Okay, yeah~ that sounds like it sucks lol.

Another thing was (and this is purely from a "feel" point of view): It also removed some of the challenge of finding ammo. In DX, if you want to shoot a rocket, you need to find one. In IW, you can just grab an ammo clip that fell off an NPC, and it would be a rocket, a bullet, a shotgun shell or a prod charge. It was... boring, I suppose is as good a word as any.

Deus_Ex_Machina
25th Jun 2010, 01:08
If you listen to the right video (the one about DE:IW), there is one very importent point:

If you take millions of $ to make a game, you cannot listen to some guys in the forum, that scream: "You are ruining Deus Ex, because (insert Health Reg, 3rd/1st person or whatever you like here) is ****!" Because that is not your target audience, but that is most likely the same kind of person that has told them that Deus Ex was an big failure back then...

cya
Tycho

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

The ultimate and my favorite example of a well received, high selling sequel that was made for the fans : MGS4. Hideo Kojima has said on multiple occasions that MGS4 was pure fan service.

http://gamingrelated.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mgs4.jpg

Fluffis
25th Jun 2010, 01:21
If you listen to the right video (the one about DE:IW), there is one very importent point:

If you take millions of $ to make a game, you cannot listen to some guys in the forum, that scream: "You are ruining Deus Ex, because (insert Health Reg, 3rd/1st person or whatever you like here) is ****!" Because that is not your target audience, but that is most likely the same kind of person that has told them that Deus Ex was an big failure back then...

cya
Tycho

No, the people that are saying things like that are the same kind of people he said they didn't listen to when they made IW: players who like what they had done before.

3rdmillhouse
25th Jun 2010, 01:21
I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.

The ultimate and my favorite example of a well received, high selling sequel that was made for the fans : MGS4. Hideo Kojima has said on multiple occasions that MGS4 was pure fan service.

http://gamingrelated.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/mgs4.jpg

And a sucky fan service at that, technically perfect but a sucky game. 20 plus hours of custcenes and just some few and scarce hours of gameplay. The only chapter of the Metal Gear Solid saga I'm looking to get rid of my copy. And I f***ing love this series, I'm a big fanboy of it, childish and irrational.

Righto
25th Jun 2010, 06:43
I think it's incredibly naive that Harvey attributes so many of IW's flaws to not listening to the fans. Did Warren listen to the fans to make DX1? No, there weren't fans to listen to, he's just a talented game designer.

MaxxQ1
25th Jun 2010, 06:46
I think it's incredibly naive that Harvey attributes so many of IW's flaws to not listening to the fans. Did Warren listen to the fans to make DX1? No, there weren't fans to listen to, he's just a talented game designer.

Even so, there were *many* flaws in DX that could have been rectified in IW in a smart way. It's just that Harvey chose not to do it the smart way.

And besides, Warren was pretty much "hands off" during the development of IW - it was all Harvey's baby.

mr_cyberpunk
25th Jun 2010, 06:48
I don't know anything about Square at all - so I am not taking the pi*s when I ask why is it so good?

Its the fact that now Eidos is policed based on their actions- if Eidos does anything, it has to report it to Square. It means that Eidos has less power, this is a good thing. (because Eidos IMHO went totally insane with power for a while there just like Activision and EA are like now.)


Did Warren listen to the fans to make DX1? No, there weren't fans to listen to, he's just a talented game designer.

Fans of System Shock 1, 2 and Thief 1 would disagree with you. Warren definately listened to their feedback, and "Shooter" or Deus Ex as it would become evolved based on his successes and failures with System Shock and Thief. Lets just totally ignore his award winning career with Origin and TTGL /sarcasm. Deus Ex would have been under scrutiny by his fans and I do recall that being the case.

Righto
25th Jun 2010, 12:27
Fans of System Shock 1, 2 and Thief 1 would disagree with you. Warren definately listened to their feedback, and "Shooter" or Deus Ex as it would become evolved based on his successes and failures with System Shock and Thief. Lets just totally ignore his award winning career with Origin and TTGL /sarcasm. Deus Ex would have been under scrutiny by his fans and I do recall that being the case.

Yeah, fair enough. I don't remember WS having much of a fanbase unto himself pre-Deus Ex, thought it was more of a Looking Glass/Origin (and Irrational by proxy) thing back then.

My point still stands though, if Harvey thinks he needed to rely on what a bunch of enthusiastic people posted on message boards to make a decent game, then that's a pretty good sign that he doesn't have a clear idea of what he's doing. That's not to say anything against the fans, of course, or that there wouldn't have been value in hearing out their experiences with the original.