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View Full Version : i want mirrors edge style melee in deus ex HR



super...
23rd Jun 2010, 13:35
made this it's own thread for visibility.

while it may be too late to change anything i just wanted to put that idea out there. even though the waggle melee combat in the original deus ex is VERY dated by today's standards, melee was an important way to solve problems in the game. i'm sure most of us have completed a melee only play through. whats more is there were some great enemies in the original that used melee attacks. guard dogs and eugenics, dragons tooth swinging MIB, these added a lot of tension to the scenes they were in and offered another kind of problem to solve (how do you keep an enemy AWAY from you in a tight location).

Mirror's Edge did a fantastic job at offering both challenging and great looking melee and could be an example to emulate that would fit with the deus ex ideals.

copied from a newer post:
if i were to define it, mirror's edge melee was about timing and context.

you could disarm just about anyone easily from behind, running into a punch was different then a standing punch, crouching was a nuts punch, running into a crouch was a slide kick. mixing up your context allowed you to take down even the heaver guys with just melee. the game even had a few very gratifying melee boss fights.

Also important is the animations for all this worked as timing cues and looked great.

it's major downfall was it's ambiguity, most people don't know or did not expect the melee in that game to be so usefull and complex regardless of all the loading screen tips they used to try and make people realize.

JackShandy
23rd Jun 2010, 13:57
Guess I'll say this again, then.


Melee combat in FPS games is a reset button. It's there to keep everyone at a suitable distance in order to use the guns, because using the guns is the fun part. (Thus the SHOOTER in FPS). Someone gets close enough to you that using the guns seems stupid- reset, they're dead or they run away, you continue to shoot things in the way the game wants you to. Takedowns do this same reset thing, just in an overly flashy style.

Do you really want, like, THIS in your deus ex? Some sort of multiple-button combat system, with blocking or disarming or fist-fighting... does anyone actually really want that? This isn't a rhetorical question. I just think that would be kind of weird.


I'll add that I'm fairly sure Mirror's Edge's meelee went basically like this:

"Wait for the guard shooting at you to whip you with his gun. He may not do this- he may simply keep shooting. If so, Die."

"If the guard pistol-whips you, press a button at the exact moment his gun turns red to grab it and whack him with it, knocking him out. If you don't press the button at exactly the right moment, Die."

"Now that you have the guards gun, shoot the guards like a normal person. Hope that you don't run out of ammo and have to repeat the stupid process."

Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played it in a while, but it always seemed fairly terrible to me. Also, the "THIS" used to link to the Zeno Clash website.

Blade_hunter
23rd Jun 2010, 14:04
As I said I want true first person melee combat, disarming and that whatsoever.

ChfMojoRising
23rd Jun 2010, 14:04
Correction, they'll always try to hit you with the gun, and when you disarm them, the first thing you want to do is drop the gun and run. Holding guns slows you down. It's generally more of a liability than anything else. Besides, you get a trophy for finishing the game with no kills hehe. Also, jump kicks were useful when vaulting over an object. Many a shotgun armed cops learned to fly while standing too close to the edge of a building that way haha XD. Well~ there was that one time I missed and jump kicked my way off some scaffolding on the side of a skyscraper @_@

bukkit
23rd Jun 2010, 14:05
Guess I'll say this again, then.



I'll add that I'm fairly sure Mirror's Edge's meelee went basically like this:

"Wait for the guard shooting at you to whip you with his gun. He may not do this- he may simply keep shooting. If so, Die."

"If the guard pistol-whips you, press a button at the exact moment his gun turns red to grab it and whack him with it, knocking him out."

"Now that you have the guards gun, shoot the guards like a normal person. Hope that you don't run out of ammo and have to repeat the stupid process."

Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played it in a while, but it always seemed fairly terrible to me. Also, the "THIS" used to link to the Zeno Clash website.

imho the point was that it stayed in 1st person no matter what.

super...
23rd Jun 2010, 14:20
imho the point was that it stayed in 1st person no matter what.

that was less of my point, i don't mind perspective shifts in a cross genre game, even the origonal Deus Ex went third person for multi choice conversation.

if i were to define it, mirror's edge melee was about timing and context.

you could disarm just about anyone easily from behind, running into a punch was different then a standing punch, crouching was a nuts punch, ruining into a crouch was a slide kick. mixing up your positions allowed you to take down even the heaver guys with just melee. the game even had a few very gratifying melee fights.

Also important is the animations for all this worked as timing cues and looked great.

it's major downfall was it's ambiguity, most people don't know or did not expect the melee in that game to be so useful and complex regardless of all the loading screen tips they used to try and make people realize.

rokstrombo
23rd Jun 2010, 14:43
I thought the first person body awareness in Mirror's Edge was awesome, and I really liked the concept of first person melee combat. That said, even after completing the game I still hadn't figured out how to fight effectively against the higher level enemies without shooting them or exploiting the player character's regenerating health.

I think increasing first person body awareness in Deus Ex: HR would be a welcome improvement, especially if there was a first person melee system implemented.

I don't think the implementation of first person unarmed combat in Mirror's Edge worked particularly well in fights that lasted more than 2 seconds, however.

Badmaker
23rd Jun 2010, 14:48
WTF is wrong with u people ? if u dont want to see these "stupid takedowns" then dont use the takedowns.
Same applies for 3rd camera cover

JCpies
23rd Jun 2010, 14:58
WTF is wrong with u people ? if u dont want to see these "stupid takedowns" then dont use the takedowns.
Same applies for 3rd camera cover

Your comment is invalid.

Ashpolt
23rd Jun 2010, 15:02
I agree that the melee combat in Mirror's Edge was really well done, and I would prefer to see something similar to that in DX than the first/third person mishmash of auto-takedowns that we have.

super...
23rd Jun 2010, 16:10
WTF is wrong with u people ? if u dont want to see these "stupid takedowns" then dont use the takedowns.
Same applies for 3rd camera cover

I would more or less agree... the camera switch is not that big of a deal to me, but having compelling melee game play could be an issue. with the right tactics you could play the original deus ex with a charge in and whop ass melee style, gas nades and pepper spray could control crowds long enough for you to go to town with the beat stick of your choice.

3rd person camera for stealth and cover makes makes game-play sense (though wouldn't a look around corners vision aug be cool? like Adam really has eyes in the back of his head!) it helps the game play quite a bit and allows for AI that reacts believably.

But what happens if I try to use a take down on a boss character? is getting that close challenge enough? do i simply use the take down and the fight is over? or do i attempt the take down then the game punks me by not having it work? Is melee simply not a solution to the problem of a boss fight? that would disappoint me a little bit.

ZakKa89
23rd Jun 2010, 16:11
I really liked Mirror's Edge melee system. There were multiple stuff you could do and you had to have the timing right. It wasn't always as simple as some people who never played the game want you to believe.

Though, I really like the third person takedowns in DEHR, so I am curious about Mirror's Edge 2 : )

ZakKa89
23rd Jun 2010, 16:13
I really liked Mirror's Edge melee system. There were multiple stuff you could do and you had to have the timing right. It wasn't always as simple as some people who never played the game want you to believe.

Though, I really like the third person takedowns in DEHR, so I am curious about Mirror's Edge 2 : )

JablesKage
23rd Jun 2010, 16:19
Didn't FEAR provide the first stable in game melee with the kicks and slides? That was quite good, but i think it would be out of place in this game.

hardwired
23rd Jun 2010, 16:35
I pretty much prefer the Mirrors Edge-Style.

1. Its looks "too cool" No doubt the crowd will love it, but I dont pay for toys for people with that kinda taste.

2. You are out of control and it is to much automized. Melee-combat have much potential for much more satisfying combat then shooting, cause aiming and pressing a button is simple and you allready did that often enough.
Invulnerability is mostly lame. If you are vulnerable the takedowns have to be short and effective, without to much attention about to impress the main audience, which you an do with realistic and effective takedowns, too.
Anyway Adams moves fit to his appearance. A laughing stock.

3. Immersionbreaker, specially if its so flashy that it hurts.

Mirrors Edge got a good system, even you could do it better. The main problem is, that most people arent able to use it effectivly or just dont wanted to. I needed some time to become good, but it was worth the effort.
So actually i wish for more experiments, before i stop thinking about buying anymore consoles or hardware.

After the trailer and gameplay (design/voiceacting) it seems DXHR will not make me think about it again.

Anyway Portal 2 looks good, at least.

3rdmillhouse
23rd Jun 2010, 18:51
WTF is wrong with u people ? if u dont want to see these "stupid takedowns" then dont use the takedowns.
Same applies for 3rd camera cover

Don't you fvcking dare to counteract their silly arguments with common sense.

booheads
23rd Jun 2010, 18:55
WTF is wrong with u people ? if u dont want to see these "stupid takedowns" then dont use the takedowns.
Same applies for 3rd camera cover

so i can't play Deus ex as a melee character. awesome.


so much for RPG.

Kodaemon
23rd Jun 2010, 19:01
Don't you fvcking dare to counteract their silly arguments with common sense.

That's not common sense, it's troll logic.

You don't like our posts? Then don't read them, DURRRR! :rolleyes:

booheads
23rd Jun 2010, 19:03
i honestly don't think it needs to be that complex,


as long as its controllable , lol not being able to control your character in a deus ex game :lol:

"but but da choices :( "

Shralla
23rd Jun 2010, 20:21
Riddick had a great first-person melee system. An evolution of that would have worked perfectly.

Poison_Berrie
23rd Jun 2010, 21:21
I'll add that I'm fairly sure Mirror's Edge's meelee went basically like this:

"Wait for the guard shooting at you to whip you with his gun. He may not do this- he may simply keep shooting. If so, Die."

"If the guard pistol-whips you, press a button at the exact moment his gun turns red to grab it and whack him with it, knocking him out."

"Now that you have the guards gun, shoot the guards like a normal person. Hope that you don't run out of ammo and have to repeat the stupid process."

Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played it in a while, but it always seemed fairly terrible to me. Also, the "THIS" used to link to the Zeno Clash website.
Depends on the person playing. I usually tried to mix it up. And I certainly didn't shoot that much.

Daedalus CiarĂ¡n
23rd Jun 2010, 22:13
My 'perfect' melee system remains this:


A balance between EM's system and a decent player controlled one would be left and right mouse clicks (this would necessitate creating an alt-fire button if there isn't one already) and depending on context Adam interprets each click as either a punch or kick depending on button pressed. Then if you're running at a person, or jumping at them, clicking fire will land a contextualised punch (provided your aim was on target) which will be heavier than one delivered standing still. You could also factor in the crosshair placement to add extra depth, so aim for the head and left click delivers a punch to the head. Punch for the head while crouching in front of a character will deliver an uppercut. No complicated button combinations, lots of different moves, and almost complete player control.

Having said all that though, I haven't played Mirror's Edge so maybe that game's got a better one.

jtr7
24th Jun 2010, 00:22
WTF is wrong with u people ? if u dont want to see these "stupid takedowns" then dont use the takedowns.
Same applies for 3rd camera cover


I voted takedowns, 3rd camera and cutscenes....to be removed :D

:nut:




Don't you fvcking dare to counteract their silly arguments with common sense.
You're only right in that there's a sense among the common population that what the devs do is easy and black & white simple. But you're all wrong.

JackShandy
24th Jun 2010, 04:43
Problem is, the Mirrors Edge system only worked because you were constantly running away from the guards, instead of trying to fight them.

Jerion
24th Jun 2010, 05:06
Problem is, the Mirrors Edge system only worked because you were constantly running away from the guards, instead of trying to fight them.

The moves offered only made sense in that context, but the concept as a whole was quite good. The natural behavior and fluidity of first person in that game made it work.

ricwhite
24th Jun 2010, 05:30
I thought Mirror's Edge was very good, but the melee was sometimes tedious and inconsistent. Or maybe I was inconsistent. But either way, it was definitely tedious and frustrating at times and I ended up having to redo a sequence four or five times until the timing was down right. I certainly DON'T want that in a Deus Ex game. In a game like Mirror's Edge where the game was MAINLY about melee, it's fine. But in a game like Deus Ex where there are so many other facets of gameplay, I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck on a melee move that I have die and redo several times just to move on past that point.

pringlepower
24th Jun 2010, 06:05
Mirror's Edge isn't mainly about melee, it's about running.

Pinky_Powers
24th Jun 2010, 06:19
And mirrors.

pringlepower
24th Jun 2010, 06:22
Right. Anyways DE isn't about disarming and then parkouring your way to Shanghai. Riddick would be more applicable

Pinky_Powers
24th Jun 2010, 06:35
Riddick would be more applicable

I've always felt that myself.

Visualizing some of Riddick's take-downs, I can easily see Jensen doing those.

singularity
24th Jun 2010, 07:50
Depends on the person playing. I usually tried to mix it up. And I certainly didn't shoot that much.

I've beaten Mirror's Edge thrice now, including one, no weapon-hard-mode speed run.

And I have to say it is tied with Breakdown as the WORST first person melee combat I have ever seen. Ever. Very few animations for disarming people, and it was all trial and error. When you finially got the timing down, it was still useless because it was frustrating and unreliable. The game was about free running. The guns and people chasing you simply provided a motivation to run. Combat was not an option -- trust me. The only thing harder than doing a no-kill-hard run in the game is doing an agressive hard run.

Riddick did it better and gave you much more control over your attacks, without making it frustrating or look repettitive. Riddick wins... however, I like what I see thus far in DXHR.

From what I read and saw in the leaked vid, the take downs are a little jarring at first, but very fast and brutal looking. I immagine it will be far less jarring when I am controling my character and know when it is going to happen.