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jkruse
23rd Jun 2010, 09:33
Okay, yes, I'm technically new to the forum, sorry, been lurking since the game was announced but in light of recent developments, i.e. the E3 live demo footage and an apparent lean toward criticism with no constructive element, I felt it was probably about time to get my hands dirty.

I first want to make in clear that YES, I have played Deus Ex and Invisible War, albeit DX not until 2004 and IW only a couple years ago. I also want to mention that the key element that I personally enjoyed about DX seems to still be present in this prequel, that being levels as an open puzzle to explore and solve in the way I see fit rather than a corridor to run down with my finger on a trigger. I'm pretty much indifferent to the whole third person debate. I would prefer fully first, but it's not really a big deal to me.

However, there are a number of disturbing changes that this community have pointed out repeatedly, I'd go so far as to say it's come to the point of beating a dead horse. Unfortunately the likelihood of these complaints being wholly rectified is small. For that reason I'd like to propose some relatively minor adjustments to systems already known to be present in DX:HR in order to, at the very least, make them more acceptable. Here goes.

-First major complaint, Takedowns/HTH (or lack thereof). I don't see any problem with the basic idea of takedowns, but they need to be implemented better. First, remove double takedowns altogether, then require singles to be done only to an unaware enemy, either from behind or from around a corner. Also, EITHER keep them in first person, or use quicker, more efficient animations. Having them use energy was a good call and will hopefully force players to think carefully about when to use them.
On the HTH side (unfortunately this takes a bit more than a minor tweak, but I'll mention it anyway), if melee weapons have to go, okay, but let players use their fists and/or blades actively in first person, perhaps with a form of disarm, Butcher Bay would be a good model for HTH vs. guns. Tie its efficiency to existing augments like strength.

-The other major complaint is Third Person Cover. Once again, I'm relatively indifferent to it's implementation save for one detail. When using it to look around corners the player is more or less invisible, enabling potentially flawless sneaking. The fix for this is really quite simple, when the player moves all the way to the edge enable NPCs that are facing toward them to become suspicious (assuming a passive/suspicious/alert stealth system). When the player moves away from the edge of cover adjust the camera so they can no longer see around the corner. Alpha Protocol, while hardly an amazing game, does exactly this and it works great, guards catch a quick glimpse of you and come to investigate, forcing the player to back off or rush to silence him.

-Third Person Augment Animations. This one I do have a problem with, not necessarily with the third person part, but with the speed at which they are performed. Both the slam attack and the claymore aug seen in the live demo went into slow motion, panned around Adam, and slowly performed the action. The whole thing took about 5 seconds, maybe longer. Any such animations should be quick and concise; pull quickly to third, bombs pop out, explode, done, within the space of 1, MAYBE 2 seconds. We can watch the aftermath in first person. It would be better in first person and directly controlled by the player, but I can live with them if they speed up.

Those are the major gameplay mechanics that could be adjusted easily. Others include tying health regen to an aug or using the same system as has been described for energy use. I'm not going to touch story or characters, I can't really judge that with the snapshot of information we currently have. However, if there are more gameplay mechanics that you would like to see tweaked, rather than completely swapped out, I'd like to hear about it. I certainly have ideas for major changes, but I assume most of you do. Those can be discussed elsewhere.

Oh, one last thing, I want to address the skills vs. augments concerns. I may be completely wrong, but it seems that they have been combined rather than dumping skills. Weapons used to be skills, now each one has it's own upgrade scale that will likely have the same effects. Some skills were redundant with augments, like swimming and toxin resistance. Combining them will only force more careful consideration when building a character. At the end of the day it seems they'll work similar enough. Upgrading an aug is pretty much the same thing as leveling a skill, just explained differently.

jtr7
23rd Jun 2010, 09:39
"Minor" fixes? Only the Third Person Augment Animations suggestion is close to being minor. I don't how you can think any of that is easily fixed.


I agree about the combined skills/augs, though.

jkruse
23rd Jun 2010, 09:41
Actually they would be quite doable in the remaining development time, minus the HTH combat. At least the core changes, I add more at the end of some.

Bluey71
23rd Jun 2010, 10:11
I think it was MR K that initially talked about tweaking the 3rd person cover cam. If EM will not/cannot implement lean keys, this would the next best thing. Limiting that cheat cam is a must.

rokstrombo
23rd Jun 2010, 12:37
First major complaint, Takedowns/HTH (or lack thereof). I don't see any problem with the basic idea of takedowns, but they need to be implemented better. First, remove double takedowns altogether, then require singles to be done only to an unaware enemy, either from behind or from around a corner. Also, EITHER keep them in first person, or use quicker, more efficient animations. Having them use energy was a good call and will hopefully force players to think carefully about when to use them.

It has been confirmed that the third person take downs will be unavailable once the enemy is alerted to Adam's presence. I agree though that the animations should generally be quicker than what was leaked through E3. I also agree that the ability to perform most of these moves in first person could be a nice addition, but Eidos Montréal have consistently emphasised the cinematic appeal of their game and I doubt they will provide such a simple means for players to mess with it. I'm prepared to trust their judgement at this stage.


On the HTH side (unfortunately this takes a bit more than a minor tweak, but I'll mention it anyway), if melee weapons have to go, okay, but let players use their fists and/or blades actively in first person, perhaps with a form of disarm, Butcher Bay would be a good model for HTH vs. guns. Tie its efficiency to existing augments like strength.

Although this hasn't been well described in any interviews to date, I suspect that this will be the case. Very early interviews hinted at some sort of melee combat system IIRC, although it remains to be seen what this system will consist of if it is still planned.


-The other major complaint is Third Person Cover. Once again, I'm relatively indifferent to it's implementation save for one detail. When using it to look around corners the player is more or less invisible, enabling potentially flawless sneaking. The fix for this is really quite simple, when the player moves all the way to the edge enable NPCs that are facing toward them to become suspicious (assuming a passive/suspicious/alert stealth system). When the player moves away from the edge of cover adjust the camera so they can no longer see around the corner. Alpha Protocol, while hardly an amazing game, does exactly this and it works great, guards catch a quick glimpse of you and come to investigate, forcing the player to back off or rush to silence him.

Eidos Montréal have stated on several occasions that engaging the third person cover system will be optional. There is also a "See through walls" augmentation to assist players with sneaking if they need additional assistance. I think a stealth system based on sound and line of sight is much more predictable and realistic than the system in Deus Ex.


-Third Person Augment Animations. This one I do have a problem with, not necessarily with the third person part, but with the speed at which they are performed. Both the slam attack and the claymore aug seen in the live demo went into slow motion, panned around Adam, and slowly performed the action. The whole thing took about 5 seconds, maybe longer. Any such animations should be quick and concise; pull quickly to third, bombs pop out, explode, done, within the space of 1, MAYBE 2 seconds. We can watch the aftermath in first person. It would be better in first person and directly controlled by the player, but I can live with them if they speed up.

The Icarus Landing System aug took just about 3 seconds, and the Claymore aug took about 10 seconds. I too think they would be adequately impressive if they were shown in real-time.


Oh, one last thing, I want to address the skills vs. augments concerns. I may be completely wrong, but it seems that they have been combined rather than dumping skills. Weapons used to be skills, now each one has it's own upgrade scale that will likely have the same effects. Some skills were redundant with augments, like swimming and toxin resistance. Combining them will only force more careful consideration when building a character. At the end of the day it seems they'll work similar enough. Upgrading an aug is pretty much the same thing as leveling a skill, just explained differently.

You're correct about the skills being combined with augmentations for the most part. Augmentations will be available for purchase at Limb Clinics with credits, and upgraded at any time using XP. I am of the impression that XP will be much scarcer than credits. The degree to which the player will be able to specialise has not been described, but it will obviously be impossible to max out all augmentations in a single play-through.

Blade_hunter
23rd Jun 2010, 13:29
1/ wrong the only rule is to get close enough to the enemy to make a takedown but you can die during the takedown if others fire at you that has been stated in several articles.
At least there is no melee combat, or even the simple stuns we had before.

2/ the new stealth system isn't more realistic even if DX haven't a best use of it's stealth, let's say we needed thievish options to make the rooms dark, splinter cell and Thief were better on that area and more evolved.
And don't forget that the see through wall aug have strong chances to eat energy even if it's partially regenerating, the cover system doesn't eat energy, so the cover system isn't that optional also second the gameplay vid I can't see the cams with.

3/ And last thing, correcting the FP or even the TP view wouldn't be that easy, for the sole reason that they doesn't use body awareness, because there is weapon animations for the FP view and the TP animations for the takedowns, some biomods, the cover and weapon animations while in cover, ladder climbing.

rokstrombo
23rd Jun 2010, 14:32
1/ wrong the only rule is to get close enough to the enemy to make a takedown but you can die during the takedown if others fire at you that has been stated in several articles.
At least there is no melee combat, or even the simple stuns we had before.

I'm almost positive that someone from Eidos Montréal has explicitly stated that the player will not be able to go into a third person take down if he is spotted by the enemy (obviously this does not apply to Icarus Landing System and Claymore, which we have seen in the video). I couldn't find the quote just now, but I will do a more thorough search tomorrow.

Regarding the presence of first person melee combat, I cannot recall any articles where this has been confirmed or denied. Do you have any links?


2/ the new stealth system isn't more realistic even if DX haven't a best use of it's stealth, let's say we needed thievish options to make the rooms dark, splinter cell and Thief were better on that area and more evolved.
And don't forget that the see through wall aug have strong chances to eat energy even if it's partially regenerating, the cover system doesn't eat energy, so the cover system isn't that optional also second the gameplay vid I can't see the cams with.

The new stealth system is more realistic if you don't engage the third person cover system. The cover system is engaged with a button, and if the player doesn't use that button in the appropriate context the system won't be engaged. I too would prefer if the player character would be able to hide in darkness, however.

The reason I brought up line of sight was to compare with the system in Deus Ex where the player can strafe/lean around a corner briefly, and the enemy will forget in a couple of seconds. This is unrealistic. In Deus Ex: HR, without th use of the third person cover system, the player will be guided by footsteps and augmentations such as See through walls only. I think this is a better system, even though it is not perfect.

I agree that the see through walls aug will be probably be inefficient. For players who choose not to engage the third person cover system though, it could be useful for emergencies. Alternatively, the player can choose to retreat or attack. The point I was raising was that the potential for multiple choices will probably still be prominent in the next game.


3/ And last thing, correcting the FP or even the TP view wouldn't be that easy, for the sole reason that they doesn't use body awareness, because there is weapon animations for the FP view and the TP animations for the takedowns, some biomods, the cover and weapon animations while in cover, ladder climbing.

Yep, I agree with you here. I think increasing first person body awareness would be an excellent way to improve the game as it was presented at E3.

I don't like the ladder climbing being in third person either, but it allows people to see over the "top corner" before they reach the top which is consistent with the presence of the third person cover system. This is apparently the only non-optional use of this system.

Blade_hunter
23rd Jun 2010, 15:22
Search at Eurogamer and read the the whole recent interviews about DX HR.
At least even the demo showed how close combat was done in an extent, even when Adam was invisible and suffocate of the guard, it wasn't an augmentation (I will find a bit ridiculous if it is)
Just a stealth takedown and they also said that if you are spotted the takedown animation would be different than the stealth one.

Even in therms of weapons we have non lethal guns which would certainly be the only way to make stealthy stuns in first person.
They didn't show their tranquilizers or their stun guns in action.

Don't forget that what you are criticizing for the DX stealth is the AI, not the stealth by itself
When I played with shifter the game was better because of the enhanced AI.

And the TP cover will be encouraged in therms of use, even people that want to skip it couldn't skip it.
At least I remember a quote of Dugas saying that there is people who completed gears of war without using the cover system (it's from a French video interview), but the problem of this is, Dugas didn't used a stealth game as an example that means you can fight even with difficulty without using the cover, since cover systems are made to make the combat more easy when we use them, but the stealth in that story ?

People would have to use invisibility and see through wall augs to play without the cover and they will use energy.
So even if the BE can be partially restored because it partially regenerates., people will use the cover because it saves energy for more useful augmentations.
And people wouldn't have such things at start.

Actually I don't think they will use body awareness, we sew that the game has floating guns, the most obvious scene where we show that was when Adam broke the glass before using the ILS.
And changing this will require a lot of work.

EDIT: I think the whole game is much more designed around the third person than the first person and even some people stated that ...

jkruse
23rd Jun 2010, 17:34
Better body awareness in first person would be nice, however, depending how their AI works I think the change I proposed for stealth would be possible. The cover system already has to recognize when a player is at the edge of cover so it knows when to allow the lean and shoot animation. This means there is some sort of tag telling the game the player is at a corner. All that needs to be done is add a partial visibility line when the player is at a corner, and script in camera movements when he slides away from one. A coder that knows what he's doing and knows the game well should be able to do this in a days work. At this point it would actually be easier to implement this adjustment to the third person system than to add lean to first person. Again though, it is highly dependent on how DX:HR's AI is written. If they have a tiered awareness, i.e. passive/suspicious/hostile, then it would work beautifully. However, if the A.I. turns hostile at the slightest glimpse of the player it won't work at all.

And I'm sorry, but 'you don't have to use it' as an argument for third person cover is BS. It's designed as a core dynamic, not using it will effectively cripple the player. If they had both lean and TPC THEN not using it would be a valid option.



...The point I was raising was that the potential for multiple choices will probably still be prominent in the next game...
I certainly won't argue that, but the concern I hold, and it seems many others do as well, is focused on the diminished possibility for player error, for those mistakes that force the player to react quickly and/or rethink their strategy.

rokstrombo
24th Jun 2010, 07:47
I've re-read some interviews so I will update this thread:


1/ wrong the only rule is to get close enough to the enemy to make a takedown but you can die during the takedown if others fire at you that has been stated in several articles.

This is correct. It was confirmed in a recent PC Gamer interview (http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/12/deus-ex-human-revolutions-game-director-speaks/) with Jean-Francois Dugas:


PCG: What are the rules for when you can do takedowns like the wrist-blade stabbing moves?

Dugas: The rules are very simple. You need to have the augmentation, and you need to get close to an enemy.

PCG: Does it matter whether they can see you or not?

Dugas: If they see you and you’re not dead, it’s going to be a different animation, because you’re up front so it’s not the same thing as surprising them from behind. What I’ve been explaining today is that basically there are two ways you can off them. You can press the button to kill them, or you can briefly press it just to make them unconscious. So when all the arm hatches are opening and he’s going with his blades then it’s killing, but if they’re not opening then [it will be non-lethal]. So it’s all in the player’s control. Basically you can come from the front and still do it, but you need, to come in from a corner and surprise him. If you come from afar and you try, he’s going to start shooting at you, and the chances that you survive are low. It can happen, but they’re very low.

But you can do them anywhere, anytime, it’s up to you. It’s contextual, but it’s not scripted. You could go in the city and do it to the civilians in the store and everything, but it’s not necessary.

Sorry for the misunderstanding! :) It appears that there will be no first person melee combat in Deus Ex: HR. This contradicts an earlier quote I remember but can no longer find, but Dugas was very specific.


Don't forget that what you are criticizing for the DX stealth is the AI, not the stealth by itself
When I played with shifter the game was better because of the enhanced AI.

I don't think there is any purpose in separating the overall stealth mechanics from the AI because both systems are designed specifically to work together. The point I was raising was that when you stick your head around a corner you will always be spotted if you are in the enemy's line of sight. There is no realistic means for a virtual human guard to then forget what they just saw in only two seconds. In Deus Ex: HR, by choosing not to engage the third person cover system, the player character will be unable to see around corners while the enemy is facing him. They must either listen for footsteps or engage augmentations to gain awareness of what lies outside their field of vision (or walk around the corner and risk detection). This is more realistic than the system in Deus Ex, and the system jkruse described from Alpha Protocol in the OP.


And the TP cover will be encouraged in therms of use, even people that want to skip it couldn't skip it.
At least I remember a quote of Dugas saying that there is people who completed gears of war without using the cover system (it's from a French video interview), but the problem of this is, Dugas didn't used a stealth game as an example that means you can fight even with difficulty without using the cover, since cover systems are made to make the combat more easy when we use them, but the stealth in that story ?

I agree totally that the third person cover system will be encouraged, but IIRC René has stated on multiple occasions on this forum that the decision to engage the system will be optional. Completing the game without engaging the system will probably be very difficult, but the same could be said of Deus Ex if the player had to rely on sound and augmented vision instead of exploiting the AI's poor "vision" and memory.


People would have to use invisibility and see through wall augs to play without the cover and they will use energy.
So even if the BE can be partially restored because it partially regenerates., people will use the cover because it saves energy for more useful augmentations.
And people wouldn't have such things at start.

Players would still be able to use the sound of footsteps, hacked security cameras, distraction, memorising patrols, and moving crates into patrol routes to cause delays or create distinctive patterns of footsteps to aid in sneaking. Obviously this will be a lot more difficult than engaging the third person cover system, but this is scarcely different to the tactics required in Deus Ex during non-lethal play-throughs and other role-playing challenges.

I agree totally that most people will opt to use the third person cover system, but the point I am raising is that it is up to the individual player to decide how they want to play though the game. If you consider the third person camera to be an unfair advantage, don't use it (except on ladders, where you have no choice!).


Actually I don't think they will use body awareness, we sew that the game has floating guns, the most obvious scene where we show that was when Adam broke the glass before using the ILS.
And changing this will require a lot of work.

I agree with this too. It doesn't look like there is any first person body awareness besides the "robot arms" and Adam's footsteps and presumably pain sounds. As you said, there were no feet when Adam shot out the skylight on the roof of the warehouse. I can dream, I suppose :)


EDIT: I think the whole game is much more designed around the third person than the first person and even some people stated that ...

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, though the interviewees from Eidos Montréal have generally played down any divergence from the original game in terms of design. The game is still 9+ months out from release, though so some improvements are possible. I personally would be quite happy if the third person cinematics were made faster, and first person body awareness was increased.

rokstrombo
24th Jun 2010, 07:49
Better body awareness in first person would be nice, however, depending how their AI works I think the change I proposed for stealth would be possible. The cover system already has to recognize when a player is at the edge of cover so it knows when to allow the lean and shoot animation. This means there is some sort of tag telling the game the player is at a corner. All that needs to be done is add a partial visibility line when the player is at a corner, and script in camera movements when he slides away from one. A coder that knows what he's doing and knows the game well should be able to do this in a days work. At this point it would actually be easier to implement this adjustment to the third person system than to add lean to first person. Again though, it is highly dependent on how DX:HR's AI is written. If they have a tiered awareness, i.e. passive/suspicious/hostile, then it would work beautifully. However, if the A.I. turns hostile at the slightest glimpse of the player it won't work at all.

Perhaps I've misunderstood your descriptions, but it sounds like the system you propose would still allow the player to see around corners without exposure and would only add a penalty of temporarily raising enemy suspicion if the player happened to reach the edge of cover while the enemy is facing this cover. If this is the case, it is functionally equivilent to the lean/strafe system in Deus Ex where leaning out of cover briefly triggered the suspicion of the enemies who were within a certain distance and had clear line of sight of JC.


And I'm sorry, but 'you don't have to use it' as an argument for third person cover is BS. It's designed as a core dynamic, not using it will effectively cripple the player. If they had both lean and TPC THEN not using it would be a valid option.

Both lean and third person camera require the player to have an unfair advantage over the NPCs. That is, being able to see around corners without being fully detected. In Deus Ex, leaning was no different to strafing, except the player's field of vision was tilted. In Deus Ex: HR, the player can still strafe, but they may not be able to strafe around a corner and avoid detection (this hasn't been described yet). Playing through Deus Ex: HR without using the third person camera will be equivilent to playing through Deus Ex if the enemy AI had been improved to contemporary standards (ie not half-blind, not severely amnesic).

I agree that the third person camera will probably be a core dynamic in terms of level design, but I don't agree that a skilled player would neccessarily be crippled by choosing not to engage it. As I mentioned above to Blade_hunter, players would still be able to use the sound of footsteps, hacked security cameras, distraction, memorising patrols, and moving crates into patrol routes to cause delays or create distinctive patterns of footsteps to aid in sneaking. On top of that, there will be augmentations that will provide the player advantages over the enemy at a cost of bioelectric energy. Obviously this will be a lot more difficult than engaging the third person cover system, but this is scarcely different to the tactics required in Deus Ex during non-lethal play-throughs and other role-playing challenges.


I certainly won't argue that, but the concern I hold, and it seems many others do as well, is focused on the diminished possibility for player error, for those mistakes that force the player to react quickly and/or rethink their strategy.

I too hold this concern, however it appears that most of the promotional efforts of Eidos Montreal have been targeted at new gamers rather than addressing the specific concerns of existing fans so there could be a lot that will remain undescribed until after release. I think the biggest concern with regards to diminishing the effects of player error is the inclusion of regenerating health. I believe that the third person cover system is also present for this purpose, however to my knowledge no one from Eidos Montréal has contradicted René's claims that it will be optional so far.

Blade_hunter
24th Jun 2010, 12:41
Yes the AI plays a big role in stealth, but other games like Thief mainly or Splinter cell have a better AI in that regard and the stealth uses similar components as DX.
Deus Ex has an AI that is made to play with stealth and fightings and the AI isn't perfect in both areas, it has some advanced tweaks, but that's not marvelous, but good enough to not be a crap, and a lot of games when the AI "thinks" there is something suspicious, they will investigate, instead of just standing watching and forget us.
I also played a Thief multiplayer mod for UT99 which allow people to play against human beings with the same stealth ingredients as Thief and also similar to Deus Ex since they share many components.

And no having leaning you can be detected if the enemy is close to you, with a TP camera that's impossible, so the unfair advantage goes only with the TP cover which you don't need to pop up to see around a corner.
The first person cover is close to the lean in that regard that's why even people is much more ready to accept an FP cover than a TP cover.
And don't forget playing DX HR in ranged combat can be made without the TP cover with an higher difficulty, but certainly not the stealth, and even the other tools needs a lot of time consumption and resources that we could avoid with simple lean keys, but the game is made around a third person stealth, not a first person one.
Then the TP cover won't be avoidable so easily. The game would manage people to use it.
Actually jkruse is right when he said if there is no leaning then the cover is unavoidable, there is some alternate means, but they doesn't play the same role as leaning.

At least what the point of playing a game if we have to avoid most of its own features to enjoy it ?
If that's only a third person view like in thief 3, then I won't mind the third person, but actually that's not the case.

Tverdyj
24th Jun 2010, 13:58
minor tweaks
health regen: make its speed variable and up to the player to control in options.

3rd person cover:
give us crouch and lean keys.

simple.

JablesKage
24th Jun 2010, 14:02
wow everyone seems to be on the old high horse regarding fixing the game thats not even out yet??? maybe we should save all the anger for if and when DX comes out and we are still not happy?

rokstrombo
24th Jun 2010, 14:54
Yes the AI plays a big role in stealth, but other games like Thief mainly or Splinter cell have a better AI in that regard and the stealth uses similar components as DX.
Deus Ex has an AI that is made to play with stealth and fightings and the AI isn't perfect in both areas, it has some advanced tweaks, but that's not marvelous, but good enough to not be a crap, and a lot of games when the AI "thinks" there is something suspicious, they will investigate, instead of just standing watching and forget us.
I also played a Thief multiplayer mod for UT99 which allow people to play against human beings with the same stealth ingredients as Thief and also similar to Deus Ex since they share many components.

I agree that a stealth system can work independantly of NPC AI. I was referring specifically to the single player component of Deus Ex, where the sole purpose of the stealth system is to avoid detection from NPC AI.


And no having leaning you can be detected if the enemy is close to you, with a TP camera that's impossible, so the unfair advantage goes only with the TP cover which you don't need to pop up to see around a corner.
The first person cover is close to the lean in that regard that's why even people is much more ready to accept an FP cover than a TP cover.

I know that a leaning player character can be detected and attacked by the enemy within a certain range. A strafing player character can also be detected and attacked in exactly the same situation. In Deus Ex: HR, Adam can strafe.

The unfair advantage is leaning around a corner, being detected, and then being "forgotten" 2 seconds later. The enemy cannot do that, because the player will never forget. I realise that game AI has been improved much over the last 10 years, but the point I was making was that there is no realistic way for an unequipped human character to see around a corner without someone around that corner being able to see that human also.


And don't forget playing DX HR in ranged combat can be made without the TP cover with an higher difficulty, but certainly not the stealth, and even the other tools needs a lot of time consumption and resources that we could avoid with simple lean keys, but the game is made around a third person stealth, not a first person one.

I just want to clarify here that the "simple lean keys" in Deus Ex were identical to brief press of the strafe keys, with the exceptions that the player's view was tilted and the player character returned to his previous position when the key was released. There was no new stealth dynamic. JC was no harder to detect or shoot when leaning as he was when strafing.

If you are proposing an updated lean system where Adam would be harder to see and shoot while leaning, then I agree that this could be a good addition to Human Revolution. But as it stands now, leaning/strafing in Deus Ex = strafing in Human Revolution. They are one and the same. A player who chooses not to engage the third person cover system in Human Revolution will not have any less vision than a player of Deus Ex. BUT, if the enemy AI has been improved the game will be harder.

To put it another way (and if darkness is excluded), if the enemy AI of Human Revolution was inserted into Deus Ex, the restrictions on seeing around corners without detection would be the same as playing Human Revolution without third person cover.


Then the TP cover won't be avoidable so easily. The game would manage people to use it.
Actually jkruse is right when he said if there is no leaning then the cover is unavoidable, there is some alternate means, but they doesn't play the same role as leaning.

René said that engaging the third person cover system was optional. No one from Eidos Montréal has contradicted this so far. I don't recall any clearer details on how the system is engaged so far.

As mentioned above, in Deus Ex leaning was almost functionally identical to strafing, so the alternate means in Human Revolution will likely be similar to the alternate means in Deus Ex.


At least what the point of playing a game if we have to avoid most of its own features to enjoy it ?
If that's only a third person view like in thief 3, then I won't mind the third person, but actually that's not the case.

I agree that from what we know so far, it will be difficult to avoid experiencing the third person camera totally because it is apparently mandatory in most take downs (perhaps all melee combat), and there are presumably mandatory scripted cinematics throughout the game.

However the present discussion refers to the use of the third person camera to gain an unfair advantage over the enemy, which is only one feature.

Blade_hunter
24th Jun 2010, 16:10
Don't forget that the optional fact is only said because you have to press a button to use the cover, but an other thing that René said it's the fact that the game could be played in first person only, and that's not the case.

And again that won't be normal to have the same AI as in DX, don't turn around the same pot, please.
As I said the game will manage people to use it and there no alternatives to the TP cover so people if they want to play the stealth, they have to use it.

And also lean isn't identical to a strafe, lean = cover system, but certainly not a strafe.
You can be spotted only at a close range, when you stand in a front of the enemy you are seen and clearly viewable and the enemy will spot you even at long range.
Also in therms of defense your body is harder to hit than when you are out of a cover and strafe mostly if your run speed isn't very fast like in games such as quake 3.
So that's not equal.

The third person is one feature that isn't avoidable, that's why me and some other people complains about it.
that's perhaps only one feature, but it takes a large place in the game and there is other features that are at the same level or even worse than the view switch.

Abram730
24th Jun 2010, 17:07
The 3rd person seems quite set in stone.
So
Constructive 3rd person take down advice.

I'd suggest categorizing take downs into two categories, quick and extended.
In duel take downs the first take down should always be a quick one.

I'd suggest that each take down cost a pip.. single pip's regen so double take downs cost a pip and thus the pip that costs produces the extended take down. This also lets those that don't want long take downs to avoid them. Simply don't do it.

jkruse
24th Jun 2010, 19:49
I suppose I should be more specific about detection in lean and third person cover. I'm not thinking of a system like DX1 where they think they see you and forget about it in a few seconds. I'm saying once they hit that point they should come straight to where you are, cautiously, to figure out what it is that they saw, forcing the player to react rather than just sit and wait. I also mentioned moving the camera when you back away from a corner so the only way to see around it is to expose yourself in this way.

rokstrombo
24th Jun 2010, 20:10
Don't forget that the optional fact is only said because you have to press a button to use the cover, but an other thing that René said it's the fact that the game could be played in first person only, and that's not the case.

Presumably, if the player doesn't press the button to go into cover then the third person cover system will not be activated. Isn't this optional?


And again that won't be normal to have the same AI as in DX, don't turn around the same pot, please.
As I said the game will manage people to use it and there no alternatives to the TP cover so people if they want to play the stealth, they have to use it.

I didn't say the AI in Human Revolution will be the same as in Deus Ex. That comparison was hypothetical to illustrate my point about strafing in Human Revolution being functionally equivilent to leaning/strafing in Deus Ex in terms of what the player is able to see around corners. I'm afraid you've misunderstood.

The alternative to third person cover is to move around the corner, listen for footsteps, use cameras, memorise patrols, use augmentations, etc. You can't deny that these options were present in Deus Ex and that they were virtually unavoidable for stealth players.


And also lean isn't identical to a strafe, lean = cover system, but certainly not a strafe.

You can be spotted only at a close range, when you stand in a front of the enemy you are seen and clearly viewable and the enemy will spot you even at long range.
Also in therms of defense your body is harder to hit than when you are out of a cover and strafe mostly if your run speed isn't very fast like in games such as quake 3.
So that's not equal.

You're mistaken about this. In Deus Ex, lean is functionally equivilent to strafe. Have a look in a mirror, or join a multiplayer game. There is no question that JC is no less visible or less exposed when leaning as opposed to strafing the equivilent distance.


The third person is one feature that isn't avoidable, that's why me and some other people complains about it.
that's perhaps only one feature, but it takes a large place in the game and there is other features that are at the same level or even worse than the view switch.

I disagree that the third person cover system will be unavoidable, although I acknowledge that it is somewhat uncertain.

The reason you and others complain about it is because you believe it will be unavoidable, not because you know it will be. Either cite your sources, or acknowledge that you are uncertain.

I agree that the third person cover system is a prominent one, although as I implied above it is fundamentally unneccessary if the player is given the option as to whether or not to engage it.

rokstrombo
24th Jun 2010, 20:33
I suppose I should be more specific about detection in lean and third person cover. I'm not thinking of a system like DX1 where they think they see you and forget about it in a few seconds. I'm saying once they hit that point they should come straight to where you are, cautiously, to figure out what it is that they saw, forcing the player to react rather than just sit and wait. I also mentioned moving the camera when you back away from a corner so the only way to see around it is to expose yourself in this way.

I understand now, thanks for clarifying! I would prefer if the third person cover system would be more conservative in terms of what the player can see without exposing themselves, too. I agree that there have been some recent games that have provided a better compromise in terms of enemy vision and player stealth.

I don't really have a problem with somewhat forgetful NPCs in games, as I think it's a good way to prevent repeated save/loading during difficult parts of the game (it is a game, after all). The main reason I contest the issue is because so many people on this forum criticise the third person cover system as providing an unfair advantage to the player, when the player had a similar advantage (very forgetful, half-blind NPCs) in the first game.

Blade_hunter
24th Jun 2010, 22:32
The alternative to a third person cover is a lean or first person cover, those two are similar to the first one and without having a completely unfair advantage
You can argue again that there is other tools we mentioned but they doesn't replace a lean or a cover system and most of them aren't available by default or everywhere and even everytime.

You can listen footsteps but nothing says that there isn't a guard that stands somewhere and can see you and there isn't cameras everywhere.
The only efficient tools are the augs but they aren't available for a continuous use and at the beginning, the cover can be used continuously oppositely.
And memorizing patrols needs a clear view in first place to do it.
So for those reasons the cover is unavoidable for stealth.

And even if in DX the NPCs were somewhat forgetful you were forced to hide and not stay longer visible, the TP cover isn't the same advantage, you can't be spotted at all except if an NPC goes behind to the other side of the cover.

rokstrombo
25th Jun 2010, 12:24
The alternative to a third person cover is a lean or first person cover, those two are similar to the first one and without having a completely unfair advantage

The lean system in Deus Ex is no different from the strafe system. You can play the entire game without using the lean keys and not be disadvantaged in any way. If strafing is in Human Revolution, then the player will effectively have a "lean system".

Secondly, any system that allows the player to see around corners without significant persistent consequences provides an unfair advantage to the player. In Deus Ex, the NPCs "forgot" about seeing JC leaning/strafing around a corner in as little as 2 seconds depending on time/distance. Therefore, JC could see around every corner in the entire game provided he was more than about 10 metres from the enemy and had somewhere to temporarily retreat. Obviously the third person cover system in Human Revolution makes this easier for the player, but as far as we know this system is optional. Therefore, if the third person cover system is not engaged, the player will have no more vision or advantage than they had in Deus Ex.


You can argue again that there is other tools we mentioned but they doesn't replace a lean or a cover system and most of them aren't available by default or everywhere and even everytime.

I'm not saying that these tools replace leaning or a hypothetical first person cover system. I'm saying that they provide the player with additional options to use when appropriate. Of course they are not available by default or all the time; resource management and character development were very important dynamics in Deus Ex. That's why we like it so much!


You can listen footsteps but nothing says that there isn't a guard that stands somewhere and can see you and there isn't cameras everywhere.

You're correct. There is not always a means of knowing for certain what is around a corner without actually looking. The player may required to retreat from the situation or attack their enemies. The player may have to resort to using their augmentations, or find an alternative route, or hack bots or otherwise use the environment to their advantage. Alternatively, the player may simple reload an earlier save game and try again. This variety of options is part of the reason why the gameplay of Deus Ex has received so much praise over the last decade.


The only efficient tools are the augs but they aren't available for a continuous use and at the beginning, the cover can be used continuously oppositely.
And memorizing patrols needs a clear view in first place to do it.
So for those reasons the cover is unavoidable for stealth.

As mentioned above, resource management (health, inventory, bioelectric energy, etc) and character development (specialisation, exploration, etc) were very important dynamics in the gameplay of Deus Ex. There was no one solution for every problem. The player must find alternative means.

Of course memorising patrols requires good vantage points and is very dangerous. It is very difficult to sneak around highly populated areas without being seen. If JC is detected, he may shoot his way out, retreat, or the player may reload from an earlier save. I highly doubt that anyone has managed a stealthy, minimally-lethal play-through without once saving their progress and retrying. Besides which, a play-though with these restrictions is an optional challenge. The game was designed with the expectation that most players will use a combination of combat, stealth, conversations, saving/loading etc throughout the course of their game. The degree to which these dynamics are employed is up to the individual player.


And even if in DX the NPCs were somewhat forgetful you were forced to hide and not stay longer visible, the TP cover isn't the same advantage, you can't be spotted at all except if an NPC goes behind to the other side of the cover.

I agree totally that the third person cover system provides more advantage than the leaning/strafing system. I'm not arguing with you on that :). But you must acknowledge that the leaning/strafing system in Deus Ex allowed the player to do things in certain circumstances that the NPCs could not: see around corners without persistent consequences.

I suspect the third person cover system will make Human Revolution much easier, but as far as we know it will be optional. If it is confirmed that the player will have no choice but to engage the system, I will acknowledge that the game will probably be inferior to Deus Ex in terms of stealth mechanics and the potential for player immersion. Until then, I can't think of any reason to be gloomy about this aspect of the game.

Bluey71
25th Jun 2010, 12:35
I suspect the third person cover system will make Human Revolution much easier, but as far as we know it will be optional.

As far as we know it is optional yes, but what are you supposed to do for stealth if you don't want to use the 3rd person cover system?

Pinky_Powers
25th Jun 2010, 12:48
As far as we know it is optional yes, but what are you supposed to do for stealth if you don't want to use the 3rd person cover system?

Crouch behind objects the same as you do in the first game.

In the footage we saw, the only cover Adam took that might not work well just "crouching" were those cement things. Everything else was clearly high enough for crouching to be efficient.

And you'll notice, at both ends of that row of cement-things, there were walls you could hide behind to get a clear view of the guard patrolling. You could make that distance easily... or stealth shoot the guard. :)

Blade_hunter
25th Jun 2010, 12:53
I don't know if you understand my point here, but I will repeat it.
The cover is optional only in the sense that there is a button to engage it; a thing I can't negate and I never negated that point.
But my point and there is why I say it's not optional, it's because the gameplay will manage you to use it and mostly for the stealth and by the way the fightings, but that's least optional for the stealth.
And I don't think the game will provide you the tools you need to avoid it at start.

And I agree with the fact if we move away from the NPC's sight the consequences aren't persistent.

Blade_hunter
25th Jun 2010, 12:55
Crouch behind objects the same as you do in the first game.

In the footage we saw, the only cover Adam took that might not work well just "crouching" were those cement things. Everything else was clearly high enough for crouching to be efficient.

And you'll notice, at both ends of that row of cement-things, there were walls you could hide behind to get a clear view of the guard patrolling. You could make that distance easily... or stealth shoot the guard. :)

Pinky, he used the invisibility a thing that you won't have at start

Pinky_Powers
25th Jun 2010, 13:06
Pinky, he used the invisibility a thing that you won't have at start

No he didn't. I'm referring to the very first patrol you come across. After he kills the guy at the computer and turns off the camera.

Blade_hunter
25th Jun 2010, 13:22
In that place, ok

PenguinsFriend
25th Jun 2010, 13:27
Here are some fixes for me:

1 - Don't put vents in obvious places that only go to the place I need to go to (really, it only directs me to Tong's office? There are no side paths that lead to other offices for me to get lost in?)
2 - Find some rational in-game explanation as to why "my" (adam's) as$ doesn't fall through the flimsy metal aluminum used to make these types of shafts in the first place. Seriously, you guys work in an office building with AC right? Push Rene' into a vent tube and see how long beofre he falls through or is heard - or better yet, go watch the video at Mythbyusters - they already showed it doesn't work
3 - Add a fan or tube leading up from an HVAC unit or otherwise explain to us what the vent is there for in the first place other than adding it for an alternative sneak option - after all - you're not trying to replicate DE: IW are you? :D
4 - Have the NPCs tell Adam to buzz off if it's clear he is standing too close to try and listen in - please don't make the game so easy that I can basicaly stand close enough to the coversing npcs to breath on the back of their necks and still have them talk to each other without noticing me - I want them to turn around and say something like, "back off guilo, I no swing that way," or, "back off or I'll take you to hell!" :D
5 - if you insist on giving Adam a blade that comes out of his arm ala Assasin game, then please also add a cowl and a big red cross to his back and chest when he uses it and have the npc that he stabs say something like "I did not see you there" before he gurgles blood out of his mouth and dies

ChfMojoRising
25th Jun 2010, 15:50
On point number five~ don't you mean he needs giant teeth that don't fit in his mouth? **channels Baraka of Mortal Kombat** lol