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aduckworth
21st Jun 2010, 23:27
Hardcore DX fan here. I've only posted once, as I guess I'm more inclined to just casually glance at the forum looking for news. But I see so much endless bickering and fussing and nit-picking over this game here that more casual fans might think you're all talking about an overcooked turkey rather than a video game.

No, it's not identical to the original. Yes, it employs some ideas derived from other games. And no, it's probably not going to be perfect -- few games are. But just LOOK at this stuff. Look at it!! It looks friggin' badass, and a hell of a lot more awesome than Invisible War. I'm just happy to see Deus Ex out there again looking as cool as it does. And of course, if it does well -- and it will -- there will likely be more talk of returning to the franchise in the future. Which means more Deus Ex for us!!!

Really guys, it's gonna be okay. Really. So just.... relax.

http://drunkenachura.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/internet-serious-business.jpg?w=225&h=275

:mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2::mad2:

booheads
21st Jun 2010, 23:28
No, it's not identical to the original.


It's barely the same genre. Who are you trying to convince?

aduckworth
21st Jun 2010, 23:32
It's barely the same genre. Who are you trying to convince?

Don't play it then. Bye!

Spyhopping
21st Jun 2010, 23:32
There is a lot of negativity here, sure. Apart from some irksome things here and there, and there, and over here, I think it looks quite stunning. I'm feeling upbeat and now eagerly anticipating hearing a bit about how interactive the world is (newspapers, books, random rooms, hundreds of ingame emails and little side stories) but then it doesn't mean I'm going to restrict myself to only talking about what I like about it.

booheads
21st Jun 2010, 23:34
Don't play it then. Bye!

Oh i won't, im not much into third person action games.

Marses
21st Jun 2010, 23:35
It's barely the same genre. Who are you trying to convince?
And you know this from a gameplay video meant to show off only the gunplay how?

aduckworth
21st Jun 2010, 23:41
Oh i won't, im not much into third person action games.

Way to subtly poise yourself above it. A true DX fan.

So... Dead Space? Mass Effect? Resident Evil 4? Grand Theft Auto? Max Payne? Oblivion? You're right, now that I think about it -- all worthless. Crysis is the pinnacle.

:mad2:

AaronJ
21st Jun 2010, 23:43
I SPY WITH MY LITTLE EYE...


A new guy who doesn't know how the forum works. Some people are displeased, some people aren't.

also,

a locked thread.

aduckworth
21st Jun 2010, 23:46
C ya!

Ashpolt
21st Jun 2010, 23:48
>>ohitsthisthreadagainAGAIN.jpg

Lock please?

Spyhopping
21st Jun 2010, 23:49
Why don't you stay? It's sometimes fun. Though that largely depends on your definition of fun. ;)

aduckworth
21st Jun 2010, 23:53
http://www.freezeetch.com/crap/pancakeface.jpg

Deus_Ex_Machina
22nd Jun 2010, 00:02
I love the fact that we can easily separate the mature posters from the immature ones by looking at their join date.

It seems that everyone who's joined the forums within the last two months is approx. 14 years of age and quite possibly EM/Squeenix fanboys.

hem dazon 90
22nd Jun 2010, 00:04
elitism is bad

TrickyVein
22nd Jun 2010, 00:06
Only for non-elitists.

Ashpolt
22nd Jun 2010, 00:11
elitism is bad

Pfft, says you! You're just not elite enough to know how great it is. Yup, everything's pretty sweet here in my ivory tower!

jtr7
22nd Jun 2010, 00:13
Really? Another thread? Do you think it will get you heard louder? Do you think it will be more meaningful in impact? Did you not notice all the others who started threads, as well as all the others complaining about complainers' complaints in all the other threads? And yet you still managed to miss the point of it all?

Fluffis
22nd Jun 2010, 00:14
Really? Another thread? Do you think it will get you heard louder? Do you think it will be more meaningful in impact? Did you not notice all the others who started threads, as well as all the others complaining about complainers' complaints in all the other threads? And yet you still managed to miss the point of it all?

So, now you're complaining about his complaining about the complainers' complaints?

aduckworth
22nd Jun 2010, 00:15
Goddamn right I'm a fanboy.

Also, I'm 26, completely immature, and not afraid to admit it!

I'll take the opportunity to flaunt my musical skillz too:

www.freezeetch.com (http://www.freezeetch.com)

Notably there are several DX references in my music. ;)

aduckworth
22nd Jun 2010, 00:16
Really? Another thread? Do you think it will get you heard louder? Do you think it will be more meaningful in impact? Did you not notice all the others who started threads, as well as all the others complaining about complainers' complaints in all the other threads? And yet you still managed to miss the point of it all?

Yep!

aduckworth
22nd Jun 2010, 00:19
So, now you're complaining about his complaining about the complainers' complaints?

I can't vouch for the others, but I'm glad you and I are having fun. ;)

Fluffis
22nd Jun 2010, 00:22
I can't vouch for the others, but I'm glad you and I are having fun. ;)

Yeah, I've been negative enough for now. For the next couple of days I'm just going to try to have fun. :)

jtr7
22nd Jun 2010, 00:39
I have to ask all of you who are making threads like this: How much could things be changed, especially those very specific aspects that made you a fan to begin with, before you started to honestly say WTF? How much of a departure of aspects you like can it go before you seriously question why? How much does it have to deviate before you begin to count blessings or make excuses for yourself to find a game within that you can enjoy? How far before you actually can't see it fitting the brand name? When will you notice that no amount of awesomesauce can cover up the bad taste of a gameplay mechanic that a person has never liked in all of video game history that he/she has no option to avoid?

booheads
22nd Jun 2010, 00:43
Way to subtly poise yourself above it. A true DX fan.

So... Dead Space? Mass Effect? Resident Evil 4? Grand Theft Auto? Max Payne? Oblivion? You're right, now that I think about it -- all worthless. Crysis is the pinnacle.

:mad2:

i'm not a third person fan, however i never said those games suck. Infact i'd say they are amazing for their genre. I simply do not like the genre.

Deus Ex is a fpsrpg. not a third person action game. Changing the genre all of a sudden will obviously get fans upset.


wouldn't it?

Kain Carver
22nd Jun 2010, 00:46
I love the fact that we can easily separate the mature posters from the immature ones by looking at their join date.

It seems that everyone who's joined the forums within the last two months is approx. 14 years of age and quite possibly EM/Squeenix fanboys.
Come on dude, I'm 33 & hardly ever post on here because of all the childishness that goes on. Don't just assume everyone on here is a kid.

K^2
22nd Jun 2010, 00:51
So... Dead Space? Mass Effect? Resident Evil 4? Grand Theft Auto? Max Payne? Oblivion? You're right, now that I think about it -- all worthless. Crysis is the pinnacle.
Good games, mostly. But among these, only Oblivion is really on the same playing field as Deus Ex, and I found it to be by far a better experience in first person. That should say something.

aduckworth
22nd Jun 2010, 00:53
When the Deus Ex franchise is hijacked by PopCap, then I'll complain.

I just don't see what is so radical about a cover system or an occasional takedown or an occasional switch to 3rd person. I think the core elements of a DX game are atmosphere, a complex/multilayered/non-linear story, and playing the type of character you want to play. If DXHR looked like it was developing in the direction of an extremely linear, stale, lifeless machine-gunning FPS, then yeah, I'd be pretty disappointed. But for the most part, while taking a few liberties here and there, I think the devs are taking the source material pretty seriously and from the look of things so far I have few reasons to doubt that. The changes that have occurred within the GTA or Fallout franchises are far more radical than the changes being made in the DX franchise, and a lot of people enjoy those games regardless.

Pinky_Powers
22nd Jun 2010, 01:23
Good games, mostly. But among these, only Oblivion is really on the same playing field as Deus Ex, and I found it to be by far a better experience in first person. That should say something.

Yes, it says that game was never designed for third-person. Seriously, how can you compare Oblivion in third-person to a game like Mass Effect? Oblivion felt terrible in third-person... just hideous!! :gamer:

aduckworth
22nd Jun 2010, 01:31
Yes, it says that game was never designed for third-person. Seriously, how can you compare Oblivion in third-person to a game like Mass Effect? Oblivion felt terrible in third-person... just hideous!! :gamer:

BECAUSE... BECAUSE...

Alright it was a stretch. :nut:

K^2
22nd Jun 2010, 01:32
Yes, it says that game was never designed for third-person. Seriously, how can you compare Oblivion in third-person to a game like Mass Effect? Oblivion felt terrible in third-person... just hideous!! :gamer:
Mass Effect is a completely different type of game from Deus Ex, though. There are parallels in how they tell the story and principles of choice and consequence, though, generally not carried nearly as far in ME. Settings are similar. Very similar. So similar, in fact, that I expect throngs of ME fans to storm this place and accuse HR of ripping it off any day now. But the gameplay is completely different. ME is not meant to be immersive by any means. Deus ex is. Oblivion is a far better comparison. It can be played as a deeply immersive game, just like Deus Ex. And ability to play the whole thing in first person is very important for that.

I really wouldn't mind a toggle somewhere that switches HR from first person to third person. But there was no reason to have takedowns, stealth, and most importantly ladder climbing in 3rd person. If some people have to have a handicap on stealth, let them use it. If they want to watch takedowns in 3rd person, it can be a checkbox away. No reason to drag the rest of us down with it.

Remington
22nd Jun 2010, 01:35
Mass Effect is a completely different type of game from Deus Ex, though. There are parallels in how they tell the story and principles of choice and consequence, though, generally not carried nearly as far in ME. Settings are similar. Very similar. So similar, in fact, that I expect throngs of ME fans to storm this place and accuse HR of ripping it off any day now. But the gameplay is completely different. ME is not meant to be immersive by any means. Deus ex is. Oblivion is a far better comparison. It can be played as a deeply immersive game, just like Deus Ex. And ability to play the whole thing in first person is very important for that.

I really wouldn't mind a toggle somewhere that switches HR from first person to third person. But there was no reason to have takedowns, stealth, and most importantly ladder climbing in 3rd person. If some people have to have a handicap on stealth, let them use it. If they want to watch takedowns in 3rd person, it can be a checkbox away. No reason to drag the rest of us down with it.

Just to avoid mix-ups, Oblivion horses HAD to be 3D, just HAD to. :(

Also, an incredible aspect of Oblivion is that it was modifiable, so that the features they missed (believe me, I was on the Oblivion forums long before it came out) were modded in. Levitation being a very strong example and there are many more. (e.g. Settler mod)


BTW, Mass Effect 2 was immersive IMO, just as much as KOTOR

K^2
22nd Jun 2010, 01:37
I don't think I ever used horses, except for trying them once or twice. Were they forced into 3rd person? I'm pretty sure there is a way to use them in first. Might have been a mod.

Pinky_Powers
22nd Jun 2010, 01:45
Mass Effect is a completely different type of game from Deus Ex, though. There are parallels in how they tell the story and principles of choice and consequence, though, generally not carried nearly as far in ME. Settings are similar. Very similar. So similar, in fact, that I expect throngs of ME fans to storm this place and accuse HR of ripping it off any day now. But the gameplay is completely different. ME is not meant to be immersive by any means. Deus ex is. Oblivion is a far better comparison. It can be played as a deeply immersive game, just like Deus Ex. And ability to play the whole thing in first person is very important for that.

I really wouldn't mind a toggle somewhere that switches HR from first person to third person. But there was no reason to have takedowns, stealth, and most importantly ladder climbing in 3rd person. If some people have to have a handicap on stealth, let them use it. If they want to watch takedowns in 3rd person, it can be a checkbox away. No reason to drag the rest of us down with it.

This goes back to the old and impossible debate of what makes entertainment immersive. Mass Effect was absolutely immersive for a lot of people. Many of us don't need to be inside their very eyeballs to feel like we are that character inside the game world. We can get lost in immersion just fine in third-person.

The argument of the perspective changes... that has weight, I've always felt. Until I play Rainbow Six Vegas, and realize how fluid and flawless the change is, and discover that immersion is once again unbroken.

But again, this is an impossible debate, as immersion is such a subjective reality.

You just need to be more flexible with your realities. ;)

K^2
22nd Jun 2010, 02:43
I'm extremely flexible with realities. They are outside my control. That's why I'm more firm on my position on virtualities, where I can at least pretend to be in charge.

I'm not sure exactly how you are supposed to be pretending to be Shepard and stare at his/her butt at the same time, but whatever floats your boat.

Point is, Deus Ex has never been one of these outer-body-experience games. I don't see this is as a good time to start.

Sure, there are good 3rd person games. But when you take this sudden change in paradigm, and combine it with inherent problems of balancing action and stealth in a game with regenerating health and 3rd person, you end up with something that's just wrong for Deus Ex.

pringlepower
22nd Jun 2010, 02:51
I'm extremely flexible with realities. They are outside my control. That's why I'm more firm on my position on virtualities, where I can at least pretend to be in charge.

I'm not sure exactly how you are supposed to be pretending to be Shepard and stare at his/her butt at the same time, but whatever floats your boat.

Point is, Deus Ex has never been one of these outer-body-experience games. I don't see this is as a good time to start.

Sure, there are good 3rd person games. But when you take this sudden change in paradigm, and combine it with inherent problems of balancing action and stealth in a game with regenerating health and 3rd person, you end up with something that's just wrong for Deus Ex.

Immersion doesn't have to be as simple and clear-cut as FPS. That might be the only way you can feel truly immersed in a world, and there's nothing wrong with that, but TP can still be immersive. You don't have to pretend to be Shepard to be immersed in the universe, the fiction, etc.

And there's nothing wrong with his/her butt. He/she has a very nice butt

Fluffis
22nd Jun 2010, 02:52
I don't think I ever used horses, except for trying them once or twice. Were they forced into 3rd person? I'm pretty sure there is a way to use them in first. Might have been a mod.

3D was only forced in mounting and dismounting. You are never forced to play in 3D in Oblivion. In fact, the game is all the better for it. Sneaking through a zombie-infested cave in FP is a hell of a lot cooler than in TP.

Pinky_Powers
22nd Jun 2010, 02:55
Sure, there are good 3rd person games. But when you take this sudden change in paradigm, and combine it with inherent problems of balancing action and stealth in a game with regenerating health and 3rd person, you end up with something that's just wrong for Deus Ex.

It doesn't have to be wrong. So long as the atmosphere is there, (and Jensen is certainly right), and I can still play the game the way I want, it is quite Deus Ex.

Your inflexibility on the third-person issue may ruin the game for you. Whilst I (just as long and devoted a fan as you) will get a marvelous new game that immerses me in all the things that makes Deus Ex my favorite game of all time.

You may see yourself as taking the principled path, but I can't help think how great my own road will be.

ArcR
22nd Jun 2010, 03:03
Your inflexibility on the third-person issue may ruin the game for you. Whilst I (just as long and devoted a fan as you) will get a marvelous new game that immerses me in all the things that makes Deus Ex my favorite game of all time.


Flexibility? I can live with 3rd person takedowns, preferable non melee ones. 3rd person ladder climbing and snap to cover... Damn it! They said that 3rd person was only for showing off augs! NOT FREAKING COVER! http://emoticonhq.com/images/ICQ/ICQ6.0/crying.gif

K^2
22nd Jun 2010, 03:03
Bon voyage, Pinky.

pringlepower
22nd Jun 2010, 03:08
Flexibility? I can live with 3rd person takedowns, preferable non melee ones. 3rd person ladder climbing and snap to cover... Damn it! They said that 3rd person was only for showing off augs! NOT FREAKING COVER! http://emoticonhq.com/images/ICQ/ICQ6.0/crying.gif

No, they said it was for cover. How did you manage to miss that?

jjc
22nd Jun 2010, 03:11
Here's my question:

Are the 3rd person views avoidable? TP was in DX1 during dialogue scenes, so that's a moot thing to complain about. But as far as the cover system and take downs, can you play the game without having to initiate them? If you can whack somebody with a baton or crowbar in FP, then that's one thing that's exactly like DX1. Just avoid the new feature. And the cover system may be dependant on how gunbattles are fought. It's impossible to play Mass Effect standing in the open and shooting. This case may be a drawback for DX3. However, I find the cover system in Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway adds a lot to the game. You can view the battlefield better and can see your men running back and forth and can better judge how dug in they are.

pringlepower
22nd Jun 2010, 03:14
Here's my question:

Are the 3rd person views avoidable? TP was in DX1 during dialogue scenes, so that's a moot thing to complain about. But as far as the cover system and take downs, can you play the game without having to initiate them? If you can whack somebody with a baton or crowbar in FP, then that's one thing that's exactly like DX1. Just avoid the new feature. And the cover system may be dependant on how gunbattles are fought. It's impossible to play Mass Effect standing in the open and shooting. This case may be a drawback for DX3. However, I find the cover system in Brothers in Arms: Hell's Highway adds a lot to the game. You can view the battlefield better and can see your men running back and forth and can better judge how dug in they are.

I believe there is no longer melee combat, just takedowns. But, knowing the fanatical fanbase, there's gonna be a mod eventually

Keiichi81
22nd Jun 2010, 03:25
I'm not sure exactly how you are supposed to be pretending to be Shepard and stare at his/her butt at the same time, but whatever floats your boat.

Every time you look in a mirror, do you shout "HOLY *****! Who's that!?"

I've never understand where this disconnect comes from with some people that, unless the camera is lodged firmly inside the skull of their character at all times, they're incapable of immersing themselves in their persona. Especially when you consider that MMORPGs, which have the highest degree of character association and game immersion than most any other genre, are almost exclusively all in third-person.


Deus Ex is a fpsrpg. not a third person action game. Changing the genre all of a sudden will obviously get fans upset.

The original Deus Ex, as a game, was a first-person shooter. Deus Ex as an IP can be whatever the hell it wants to be.

I see all these people complaining that "It's just not Deus Ex anymore!" for things as trivial as there not being health packs or no longer being able to lean in first-person. Deus Ex is an idea. It's a mood. It's a theme and a setting. Deus Ex means having a non-linear, branching story and multiple paths through each level. It means dark, multi-layered conspiracy themes and heavy social interaction. Deus Ex is a great many things. What it is not is a freakin' camera position. They could make a Deus Ex on-rails shooter or top-down shooter or (hell) freakin' realtime strategy game and, as long as they stay true to the aforementioned themes and characteristics, it'd still be a Deus Ex game in my opinion.

Pinky_Powers
22nd Jun 2010, 03:26
I believe there is no longer melee combat, just takedowns. But, knowing the fanatical fanbase, there's gonna be a mod eventually

Personally, I'm betting EM will change their minds on melee weapons and incorporate a few before launch. Call it wishful thinking, but it's the kind of half-measure that takes almost no work and would give many very out-spoken fans what they want. There's no real chance of them making the take-downs first-person now. But a melee weapon would go a long way for a lot of people.

jjc
22nd Jun 2010, 03:29
Personally, I'm betting EM will change their minds on melee weapons and incorporate a few before launch. Call it wishful thinking, but it's the kind of half-measure that takes almost no work and would give many very out-spoken fans what they want. There's no real chance of them making the take-downs first-person now. But a melee weapon would go a long way for a lot of people.

Not only that, but I can't think of any FPS that doesn't have some form of FP melee.

K^2
22nd Jun 2010, 03:30
Every time you look in a mirror, do you shout "HOLY *****! Who's that!?"
Occasionally, but it's the times I look in the mirror and see myself from behind that really throw me off. And if such a vision persists as I go about my daily business, well, that's just a really bad day for me.

loke13
22nd Jun 2010, 03:35
I'm extremely flexible with realities. They are outside my control. That's why I'm more firm on my position on virtualities, where I can at least pretend to be in charge.

I'm not sure exactly how you are supposed to be pretending to be Shepard and stare at his/her butt at the same time, but whatever floats your boat.

Point is, Deus Ex has never been one of these outer-body-experience games. I don't see this is as a good time to start.

Sure, there are good 3rd person games. But when you take this sudden change in paradigm, and combine it with inherent problems of balancing action and stealth in a game with regenerating health and 3rd person, you end up with something that's just wrong for Deus Ex.
And this is the root of the problem, fans have this mindset of what a game should be. Like the MGS fans crying over why Raiden is cutting people with swords and not sneaking by them. Then they yell how "MGS is dead!!!" "This is NOT MGS" "They have betrayed the spirit of MGS!!!" *sigh* my point being gameplay changes are not uncommon when it comes to sequels. One of the reasons why I like Kingdom Hearts so much is that the battle systems are constantly changing so the fans don't have this false sense of entitlement.

pringlepower
22nd Jun 2010, 03:37
Completely random: but did K^2 change his avatar in response to Pinky?

Back on topic: People criticize Deus Ex: HR for being "too much of an experience as opposed to a game" and yet the viewpoint is solely experience-based. Being in FP would neglect the gameplay

Pinky_Powers
22nd Jun 2010, 03:43
Completely random: but did K^2 change his avatar in response to Pinky?

No, he had a Brain avatar before I ever joined these forums. And I've used my handle/avatar (which I drew and painted) for over ten years now.


Back on topic: People criticize Deus Ex: HR for being "too much of an experience as opposed to a game" and yet the viewpoint is solely experience-based. Being in FP would neglect the gameplay

You really shouldn't have said that. Not only will it draw outrage and menace, but it's a fairly ridiculous statement and easy to argue against.

You'll see. :cool:

pringlepower
22nd Jun 2010, 03:48
That's pretty cool, And now you're in conflict. Ah the coincidences of life

Yeah I've noticed I've taken a pretty bad side... I dunno how to say it. Not neglect the gameplay just... I guess don't give up on the game because of perspective. Look at the whole package first. Then exploded in anger if necessary

Romeo
22nd Jun 2010, 03:51
Please carry this conversation into the general discussion.