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mad_red
16th Jun 2010, 14:06
DX1 had a storyline and lots of side-references to 'real' conspiracies - conspiracies that weren't just made up for the game, but that someone made up (or exposed if you believe it) in the real world. The talk with Leo Gold, the MJ12 water supply contamination in the NY sewers, all these little references made you think about the world we live in today, even if they're all just crazy stories. The general dystopian feel of DX1 also contributed to that.

I really like the Renaissance setting, and it offers plenty of material to reflect on the real world - renaissance philosophies, city state politics, religious dominance, hopeful nostalgia and the veneer of progress, etc. etc.

But I was wondering: has anyone found any references to real-world conspiracies, renaissance or otherwise? There's plenty of material - from the Medici's to Machiavelli, Shakespeare, John Dee, and Francis Bacon, the mysteries of the New World, etc. etc. I guess John Dee crosses over into the supernatural too much, but there's been theories about Shakespeare as a secret agent, there's Dan Brown sagas religious conspiracies, the Italian arts and sciences,etc. There's also Harry Mulisch book/movie "the Discovery of Heaven", where God calls Francis Bacon the devil for inventing science. Then there's the secret societies that many of these men were said to be involved with. Groups like the Freemasons, Hermetic orders such as the Rosicrucians and the later Oriental Knights Templar, Golden Dawn. And of course there's the Bavarian Illuminati.

So what have you found in DX:HR suggestive of these shadowy histories? What would you like to see?

PS: I wouldn't like this thread to turn into a debate about your favorite conspiracies (there's already a thread for that). Please check 'the truth' at the door and :whistle: and share your finds and ideas about the game instead.

Obnoxious Frog
16th Jun 2010, 14:24
I don't have a lot of input on this, since I'm avoiding story-related news like the plague, but I hope it ties into the conspiracies already in place more than creating its own. It seems to me that a lot of game companies slap the prequel label on their product in order to avoid having to tie their story in with the original. Unfortunately they forget that prequels are supposed to do that even more than sequels given that they are preludes to events to come. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I hope they don't take it too far from the conspiracy stories already in the series.

Kodaemon
16th Jun 2010, 14:44
Well, the most clear references we've seen to conspiracy theories so far in DX:HR are the dollar bill in the trailer, with the eye in the pyramid, and a concept of a detention center with the FEMA logo on the floor.

Pinky_Powers
16th Jun 2010, 15:19
Well, the most clear references we've seen to conspiracy theories so far in DX:HR are the dollar bill in the trailer, with the eye in the pyramid, and a concept of a detention center with the FEMA logo on the floor.

And based on how little we actually know about the story, that's an overwhelming comfort.

Romeo
17th Jun 2010, 01:10
Being Irish, I wouldn't mind seeing something regarding the I.R.A. split and the British occupation of Northern Ireland. Could be kind of cool. Or offensive. Definitely a thin line. lol

Deus_Ex_Machina
17th Jun 2010, 02:03
I think the only conspiracy surrounding DXHR is concerning Eidos Montreal's unwillingness to show us any in-game footage because they forsee the inevitable: we, the DX community, will not like what we see.

This business of not revealing much of anything to the fans is nothing new or even exclusive to Eidos. Just ask Codemasters and Raven about Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising and Wolfenstein (2009), respectively.

However, this will be my last post on this issue, at least for a while. I wouldn't want Eidos to purge my dissenting post. But then again, they would never do that (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/11/30/eidos-and-gamespot-forums-exploding-over-gerstmann-incident/), right?

Romeo
17th Jun 2010, 18:37
I think the only conspiracy surrounding DXHR is concerning Eidos Montreal's unwillingness to show us any in-game footage because they forsee the inevitable: we, the DX community, will not like what we see.

This business of not revealing much of anything to the fans is nothing new or even exclusive to Eidos. Just ask Codemasters and Raven about Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising and Wolfenstein (2009), respectively.

However, this will be my last post on this issue, at least for a while. I wouldn't want Eidos to purge my dissenting post. But then again, they would never do that (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/11/30/eidos-and-gamespot-forums-exploding-over-gerstmann-incident/), right?
Oh my god, you sound like a broken record. And on top of it, you're so narrow-minded it's almost embarassing. Have you considered that the demo isn't ready for public release? Have you considered that it's still completely unstable? Have you considered it may not have all the features in yet? It may be unbalanced? Unrunnable? Have you considered anything other than what you've passionately convinced yourself is an obvious ruse?

This is besides the fact they HAVE been showing off the gameplay - to the journalists, who then come back to THE COMMUNITY and report on the things they saw.

Now, unless you have proof, questions or something constructive to say about the subject, I'm going to start considering more copies of these posts spam, okie dokie?

Kodaemon
17th Jun 2010, 18:52
Yay for censorship.

LisuPL
17th Jun 2010, 19:15
Joker : No way they spend 10 millions of $ on such awesome game trailer just to screw us over.....

KSingh77
17th Jun 2010, 19:28
Heres a conspiracy:

What company created those shades Adam is wearing?

Why was it giving to him?

HarleyLover
17th Jun 2010, 19:31
I think the only conspiracy surrounding DXHR is concerning Eidos Montreal's unwillingness to show us any in-game footage because they forsee the inevitable: we, the DX community, will not like what we see.

This business of not revealing much of anything to the fans is nothing new or even exclusive to Eidos. Just ask Codemasters and Raven about Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising and Wolfenstein (2009), respectively.

However, this will be my last post on this issue, at least for a while. I wouldn't want Eidos to purge my dissenting post. But then again, they would never do that (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/11/30/eidos-and-gamespot-forums-exploding-over-gerstmann-incident/), right?Well, I can not help you with that, but I just found this interesting blog post. :)

http://blog.gamer20.com/2010/06/e3-showfloor-preview-deus-ex-human-revolution/

And what seems to be the official fact sheet.

Deus Ex: Human Revolution Official Fact Sheet
DEUS EX: HUMAN REVOLUTION™

Developer: Eidos™ Montreal

Publisher: Square Enix, Inc.

Platforms: PlayStation®3 computer entertainment system/

Xbox 360® video game and entertainment system from Microsoft/ Windows PC

Genre: Action RPG

ESRB: RP (Rating Pending)

Ship Date: 2011

Deus Ex: Human Revolution makes its much‐anticipated return to the series delivering players an unmatched gaming experience. Set 25 years before the original, take on the role of Adam Jensen in a stunning Cyber Renaissance universe.

STORY

The year is 2027, a time of great innovation in neuroprosthetics, but also a time of chaos and conspiracy and a new social divide. The “have ‘and “have-nots” are redefined by those who can afford augmentations and those who cannot. Adam Jensen, a private security specialist hired to protect the interests of one of the largest bio-tech corporations, is undecided on the ethics of neuroprosthetics but becomes injured in an attack on the facility and must be augmented. Having this very important decision taken away from him, he now is driven to encounter the truth and discover who attacked the facility and why. In his search a vast global conspiracy is revealed and Adam’s decisions will decide the fate of humankind.



KEY FEATURES

- The long-awaited return of the award winning franchise that brings together the best of Action and RPG: the perfect mix of combat, stealth, hacking, and social gameplay.
- Play as Adam Jensen, a mechanically augmented agent: customize and upgrade your character with dozens of specialized augmentations that support your style of play.
- Engage in combat mode selecting from an arsenal of deadly weapons, each with their own customizable elements.
- Fight enemies including dangerous thugs, augmented special operations soldiers, advanced robots; and engage in epic boss battles.
- Live the reactive and dangerous world: your choices will have consequences in the game’s world.
- Play in an open-ended world: there are always multiple solutions to every challenge.
- Immerse yourself in the Cyber Renaissance setting: discover a world that masterfully blends near future and Renaissance elements in a unique visual style.
- Travel the world: visit multiple unique locations across the globe each with their own design, story and gameplay elements.
- Become involved in vast global conspiracy: unravel the story — discover who you can really trust.
- Decide humanity’s future: the decision you make and the actions you take will lead to an ultimate decision on mankind’s future.
Prequel to 2000’s Game of the Year and One of the Greatest PC Games of All Time.

Dead-Eye
17th Jun 2010, 21:35
This Topic has gotten OFF TOPIC!!! :mad2:

...so back on topic:

Well, the Illuminati is a major recurring character in Deus Ex games so we can expect to see them hanging around, or at lest their influence. I personally hope that MJ12 make's a return because they are my favorite antagonist.

This dose get me thinking about the character development though. In the original game the character development was vary good. Paul, Jock, Smuggler all had their lives in you're hands at one point or another and you're actions dictated weather they would live or die. This made me more attached to these characters because I felt like they were my only true allies, and without them I was all on my own fighting ageist the world.

We will never really know were the 3ed installment will take us, until the game is released of course, but I hope that when it is the game will deliver an entrancing story like the first.

Deus_Ex_Machina
17th Jun 2010, 21:47
Oh my god, you sound like a broken record. And on top of it, you're so narrow-minded it's almost embarassing. Have you considered that the demo isn't ready for public release? Have you considered that it's still completely unstable? Have you considered it may not have all the features in yet? It may be unbalanced? Unrunnable? Have you considered anything other than what you've passionately convinced yourself is an obvious ruse?

This is besides the fact they HAVE been showing off the gameplay - to the journalists, who then come back to THE COMMUNITY and report on the things they saw.

Now, unless you have proof, questions or something constructive to say about the subject, I'm going to start considering more copies of these posts spam, okie dokie?

This guy (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1421504&postcount=11), who saw the E3 gameplay footage, said the following about it : "The game is really polished. The animations are awesome, everything seems in place." The original thread can be found here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110158).

Sounds to me like there weren't any outstanding bugs/glitches. So, what's their excuse for not showing us the gameplay? It's certainly not what you're suggesting.

HarleyLover
17th Jun 2010, 21:56
So, what's their excuse for not showing us the gameplay? It's certainly not what you're suggesting.Because it's a Pre-Alpha version?

Deus_Ex_Machina
17th Jun 2010, 22:02
Because it's a Pre-Alpha version?

That may be the case. However, the guy in this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110158) had this to say about the in-game footage :

"Had it been me, I would have made gameplay public. The game is really polished. The animations are awesome, everything seems in place."

Even if the footage shown was Alpha, it sounds like it was a very polished build, which makes me again ask the question : WHY NOT SHOW US?

simulacra
17th Jun 2010, 22:33
That may be the case. However, the guy in this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110158) had this to say about the in-game footage :

"Had it been me, I would have made gameplay public. The game is really polished. The animations are awesome, everything seems in place."

Even if the footage shown was Alpha, it sounds like it was a very polished build, which makes me again ask the question : WHY NOT SHOW US?

Off topic for a bit again: Because EVERY time I've seen devs release pre alpha material the result has been feces blowing every which way on forums, and besides, releasing promotional materials of any kind is a Eidos/Squeenix public relations decision, not the developers.
If the devs where to release NDA:ed material they would find that their access card to the office has been deactivated before the got back from lunch, and their stuff on their desk would be waiting in a box outside.

Deus_Ex_Machina
17th Jun 2010, 22:40
Off topic for a bit again: Because EVERY time I've seen devs release pre alpha material the result has been feces blowing every which way on forums, and besides, releasing promotional materials of any kind is a Eidos/Squeenix public relations decision, not the developers.
If the devs where to release NDA:ed material they would find that their access card to the office has been deactivated before the got back from lunch, and their stuff on their desk would be waiting in a box outside.

Ok, then why doesn't Squeenix allow EM to show us? Because, again, the footage in question doesn't sound bug riddled and it has the potential to alleviate fan fears and quite possibly lead to future sales. Doing nothing, however, may result in a loss of sales as people don't like it when devs/pubs play the quiet game. See Wolfenstein (2009) for an example.

Delever
18th Jun 2010, 00:08
They don't show it because you want to see it. It is obvious. It is called building hype. If they do it right, they will never release all information at once, they will do it bit by bit. And since there is a lot of time left to release, expect those bits to be tiny enough. This is how to make community follow released bits of information, hang in forums and talk about the game.

Deus_Ex_Machina
18th Jun 2010, 00:11
They don't show it because you want to see it. It is obvious. It is called building hype. If they do it right, they will never release all information at once, they will do it bit by bit. And since there is a lot of time left to release, expect those bits to be tiny enough. This is how to make community follow released bits of information, hang in forums and talk about the game.

The funny thing is that their tactics are not generating hype on these forums, but rather generating negativity.

simulacra
18th Jun 2010, 00:35
Yes, but in my (sadly too long) experience with forums, the users tend to overrate their importance, most succesful AAA-titles today ship in +3 million units shipped category, and how many ppl posts in the forums? 100-200 tops but for some reason they think that they represent all of the customers, yes, the most hardcore fanbase and information hungry might post, but forums generally are a poor source of information, I mainly use them as aggregation sites to get info that other user have found aswell as discussion the game in general.
But still, there are a myriad of decisions and levels of corporate strategies in place here.

Apart from politics in publishing and PR-deals there are like Delever said an element of building hype, there are atleast 2 major gaming conventions between now and the release window and the level of published material will escalate the closer we get to release.

I totally understand why forums mostly is a nuisance to the actual developers, there's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't sentiment" and if they where to publish a lot more info it would lead to 2 things, topic pollution and excessive whining, in the end, it amounts to nothing, the devs wont take input from the users (since it often leads to disaster) and because the bulk of the posts are made when the features are set in stone and pure gameplay creation/testing remains.

I understand how you feel, I've felt the same way over the years but it makes you frustrated, you'll still have to wait for the game, and you can mkae your mind up about buying the game when we're closer to release...

SquidPirate
18th Jun 2010, 00:48
I know we're just looking for things to talk about, but I don't want to know what the story for DXHR is. They've given us enough. I want to be surprised. The trailer was plenty.

When I first played the original, I had no idea it was going to connect so many odd dots into a unique package of MJ12, Templars, cattle mutilations, grays, etc etc etc. That was surprising.

I do NOT need EM giving out any more detail about the story. I only get one chance to experience it fresh.

mad_red
18th Jun 2010, 01:53
I do NOT need EM giving out any more detail about the story. I only get one chance to experience it fresh.

Hell no, I don't want the story spoiled either. I was hoping that this would be more of a brainstorm thread where people can come up with their conspiracy ideas for the game. However, if people start speculating about the game or interpret the hints correctly, I can't help that.

In that vein, am I to understand that you guys want DX:HR to include a nefarious conspiracy within the gaming industry whom's diabolical goal is to mess with players' heads, to program them through the hegelian thesis-antithesis-synthesis dialectic by playing on their desires and disappointments as part of a comprehensive social engineering process which slowly introduces trends which condition us into a state of helpless emotional dependency and obedience as the precursor for their ultimate goal of a triple globalizing whammy of centralized/universal culture, religion, and governance? [inhale] Because if that's the case, just wait until you see the next generation personal entertainment system! Tomorrow's mind-control technologies are today's reality so you'd better tell your grandchildren to get used to them yesterday!
(Thanks Kat!) :D

Romeo
18th Jun 2010, 07:26
That may be the case. However, the guy in this thread (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=110158) had this to say about the in-game footage :

"Had it been me, I would have made gameplay public. The game is really polished. The animations are awesome, everything seems in place."

Even if the footage shown was Alpha, it sounds like it was a very polished build, which makes me again ask the question : WHY NOT SHOW US?
Look at the Halo 2 alpha demo: Looked great, performed great, everything was great - so long as you did EXACTLY what was planned out in advance. Step outside the pre-thought areas though, and then you had the embarassing moment where the game simply... Stopped. And you have to restart your own demo. And that was a slip up by the develloper, who knew where he should be going. Imagine the happy times we'd get to deal with when several thousand all get an uncompleted build of the game and find themselves falling through floors, passing through walls, freezing, etc...

Like I said, it's not like Eidos has the journalists playing this demo but not us. It's an employee, who knows where he should be, and what he should and shouldn't do.




Now, on to the original topic, I wouldn't mind seeing the points where MJ12 broke away, that would be a cool nod to the original. Also, something (Anything) pertaining to Roswell, New Mexico. :p

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 08:11
You're still dodging the real issue like crazy. No one's complaining about the demo not being playable by the public or even selected journalists. We just want to see the game in action, even if a super-controlled presentation played by a dev. And no amount of articles describing that presentation is going to make up for that.

cherish
18th Jun 2010, 08:21
Well, the most clear references we've seen to conspiracy theories so far in DX:HR are the dollar bill in the trailer, with the eye in the pyramid, and a concept of a detention center with the FEMA logo on the floor.

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 08:22
Is there an echo in here?

Great_Ragnarok
18th Jun 2010, 08:25
I would love to see them ask fundamental but basic questions about the currency
system. How the world has come to the point where a piece of paper with a number
on it is deemed valuable is staggering mystery. It just smells of conspiracy since
everyone needs money to interact with eachother, yet the value of this interaction
is not controlled by democratic processes. Further more it dictates what a nation can
do and can't do hence the designation of third world countries.(third world countries are some of
the richest nations on earth in terms of natural resources and human workforces.)

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 08:30
Too much Zeitgeist there, bud. Yeah, let's go back to trading for goods.

Great_Ragnarok
18th Jun 2010, 08:41
Too much Zeitgeist there, bud. Yeah, let's go back to trading for goods.

too much what? Currency has an asserted value. and anything that is asserted requires
mass acceptance because it's not an inherent reality. do you understand what that means?
allow me to explain. gravity is an inherent reality. We have no choice but to submit to it.
a concept of currency on the other hand has an inherent reality of a piece of paper or
a piece of metal. The actual value relies on assertion by banks and the government.
That is the poor has to believe they are poor and limit their interaction as demanded
by this concept of currency. There's no greater conspiracy than this. This might not be a big
deal in the US. but in the third world nations it's a huge deal!

The solution is to have a currency system that is determined by a democratic process.

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 08:46
It's a great "conspiracy" indeed, and one that was in effect since very, very long. Observed already by Aristophanes, 5th century BC.

Great_Ragnarok
18th Jun 2010, 08:56
It's a great "conspiracy" indeed, and one that was in effect since very, very long. Observed already by Aristophanes, 5th century BC.

In the old days each nation had their own currency valued to meet local needs.
Thus the local population could interact with eachother in regards to their services and
personal property. Furthermore the value was defined in reference to an objective
property like the availability of gold,silver or some other material, they agreed to be valuable
at the time. Today's currency system is very different and highly interdependent with other nations.
This means that the people in a particular country, aren't completely free to interact with their locals and their
resources to the best of their ability, unless they are in some form of good terms in relation to arbitrary
monetary value.

Thus the question this conspiracy addresses is the question of authourity.
To whose declaration of monetary value are the nations submitting to?
and why is submission to this type of currency important even,when it results
in a serious degree of poverty and stagnation in the population?

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 09:04
So, just to know what we're standing on here, where and when do you propose a "conspiracy" started as opposed to the simple effects of Gresham's Law?

Great_Ragnarok
18th Jun 2010, 09:48
So, just to know what we're standing on here, where and when do you propose a "conspiracy" started as opposed to the simple effects of Gresham's Law?

Gresham's law is an observation on the flow of currency.
Thus the concept of currency has to be already established before the law applies.
It's not to do with the concept of actually declaring a unit of currency to be of x value,
and declaring/allowing the maximum number of units to be another value y.

It's those values x and y that are mostly the subject of the conspiracy.
How humans interact with an established currency is not the basis for the conspiracy.
The interaction(flow of currency) is mostly due to one's education on that currency and basic instincts of greed.
anyway where do you stand? do you say there is or there isn't a conspiracy in regards to the
declaration of currency? If you say there isn't, then explain to me why 3rd world countries
are coerced to submit themselves to a value, that results in the poverty of their population?
also explain to me what exactly governs and controls these asserted values.
If you are unable to answer these question, then that means you don't have knowledge of
these answers. If you are unable to even find a source for these answers then already
you end up admitting that this is a conspiracy. why? because part of a conspiracy is for
the majority to be blind and ignorant of that which controls their lives!

so if no one or the vast majority of people can't explain, away these simple questions regarding
the monetary force that governs them, then we must conclude that there's a conspiracy regarding currency.

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 10:16
So basically, you're pretty much proposing the very concept of money is conspiracy, because someone decides on the value of a unit of currency. But: currency was created for practical reasons. It's easier to carry around a purse of coin than a bag of goods, and it's easier to adjust the trade value. And speaking of that adjustment: that's what controls the power of a currency. Deficits, surpluses, fashions... there's no "fixed" value on any given thing. It's all a series of immensely complicated connected tubes. Who controls the trade? You might as well ask: who controls the weather? And if you can't answer that, it means there's a giant weather control conspiracy.

Great_Ragnarok
18th Jun 2010, 10:33
So basically, you're pretty much proposing the very concept of money is conspiracy, because someone decides on the value of a unit of currency. But: currency was created for practical reasons. It's easier to carry around a purse of coin than a bag of goods, and it's easier to adjust the trade value.

No I'm not saying the very concept is a conspiracy. I'm saying the declaration of the unit of currency
is a conspiracy, because it's not controlled by a democratic process.
and it's not at all easy to change trade values, if that was the case then we wouldn't have
poverty today. The 3rd world nations would be able to define a value for their local needs
and carry on interacting with their local populations and local resources.
but this is not the case, hence the conspiracy.



And speaking of that adjustment: that's what controls the power of a currency. Deficits, surpluses, fashions... there's no "fixed" value on any given thing. It's all a series of immensely complicated connected tubes. Who controls the trade? You might as well ask: who controls the weather? And if you can't answer that, it means there's a giant weather control conspiracy.
Physics of air, chemistry of air composition, heat received from the sun and the movement of the earth
about its axis controls the weather. more so such properties are objective properties
and are not the result of subjective assertions by other humans.
(there are weather control conspiracies btw!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Frequency_Active_Auroral_Research_Program)


where as the only objective property of currency, is the physical and chemical property of
the medium regarded to be money. that is either paper, or some special combination of metals.
The actual value used in trade depends on the subjective assertions of a few.
Now because the very inherent concept of money relies on an assertion, it therefore follows
that the best way of conducting this value should be up to a democratic process.
Not having that democratic freedom is the reason why there are such nations as 3rd world nations.

also what is your answer to my question as to whether you think there's a conspiracy?
make sure to find answers to the resulting questions, failure to do so is a sign of ignorance.
and ignorance in regards to the social force that govern yours and my life, is a sure sign of
conspiracy!

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 10:51
I am certainly no expert on economy. But my ignorance in this field does not make me believe there is a conspiracy to obscure it. I rather seek fault with myself than look for hidden enemies, since that's rather unhealthy.

I know about weather control conspiracy theories, they're one of the reasons I chose that comparison - they're just so ridiculous! :D The comparison is not perfect, but I still think it holds some ground: both the weather and trade are immensely complicated systems.

We can and we do influence the weather: on purpose locally (cloud seeding etc.), inadvertently globally (any climate changes caused by man's massive activity).

The trade is similar: it can be influenced locally, and sure, there certainly are local conspiracies to be found. But how they influence the global system is unpredictable and largely irrelevant. Any global changes on the other hand, I see as the inadvertent result of mass activity rather than controlled actions of groups or individuals.

Great_Ragnarok
18th Jun 2010, 11:01
I wouldn't be eager to blame my self If I were you.
I just think that it's important to question the force that influence,
just about everything except how much we breathe.lol.
and you know weather control conspiracies maybe valid in some cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding

and HAARP is just a research center, but it directly interacts with the ionosphere.
but yeah I can see your point as well. once you entertain some conspiracy theories,
you begin to get a little too paranoid.lol.

Senka
18th Jun 2010, 11:06
Cloud seeding is some hardcore weather control man

ArcR
18th Jun 2010, 12:21
Weather control isn't a conspiracy. The USAF isn't hiding... http://csat.maxwell.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf

Ilves
18th Jun 2010, 12:24
Weather control and chemtrails make for some of the most boooring conspiracy theories. Although admittedly Morgellon's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNb2XhqW-7c) was pretty creepy... http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/7184/faceworriedge4.gif

Deus_Ex_Machina
18th Jun 2010, 14:19
You're still dodging the real issue like crazy. No one's complaining about the demo not being playable by the public or even selected journalists. We just want to see the game in action, even if a super-controlled presentation played by a dev. And no amount of articles describing that presentation is going to make up for that.

You took the words right out of my mouth. :friends:

Also, the conversation you and Ragnarok were having regarding the allegation of a monetary conspiracy was, IMO, somewhat reminiscent of the conversation JC Denton had with Leo Gold in the Statue of Liberty. Funny.

mad_red
18th Jun 2010, 14:41
Cool ideas!

@ Kodaemon, if you want to know why a lot of people consider the control over currency a conspiracy theory, here's a couple of standard readings:

Secrets of the Temple by William Greider (NY Times bestseller)
The Creature from Jekyll Island by G.E. Griffin
Currency Wars by Song Hongbing (China's take on the subject)

And of course I'm sure you're familiar with works such as Zeitgeist, the Money Masters, End the Fed, etc.

I believe even mainstream books like Niall Ferguson's the Ascent of Money will go into episodes such as the creation of the Bank of England from an arguably 'conspiracy' viewpoint. They certainly don't reduce our modern economy into a inevitable product of Gresham's Law, as far as I know. Another argument might be that Gresham's law inevitably leads to cartel-forming, hence conspiracy.

Also, here's a viewpoint that comes straight out of Sir Thomas Gresham's College. None of the classic conspiracies here, but it's a very interesting read nonetheless, and I highly recommend it:
Debt: The first five thousand years (http://www.eurozine.com/articles/2009-08-20-graeber-en.html)
(more info: http://www.gresham.ac.uk/event.asp?PageId=45&EventId=1019)

Sorry I don't want to draw you into an argument here. What I'm trying to say is that banking or monetary 'conspiracies' are a fine subject for Deus Ex: the ultimate illusion of material freedom, the ultimate tool for control, mark of the beast and all that. Like you pointed out it's an issue as old as Aristophanes, Plato & Aristotle, and possibly even Mesopotamia.


@ HAARP: Another classic! Please note that as far as the European Union is concerned, HAARP is a weapons research program for all practical purposes:

Resolution on the environment, security and foreign policy, 1999 (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/omk/omnsapir.so/pv2?PRG=DOCPV&APP=PV2&LANGUE=EN&SDOCTA=8&TXTLST=1&POS=1&Type_Doc=RESOL&TPV=DEF&DATE=280199&PrgPrev=TYPEF@A4|PRG@QUERY|APP@PV2|FILE@BIBLIO99|NUMERO@5|YEAR@99|PLAGE@1&TYPEF=A4&NUMB=1&DATEF=990128)
"R. whereas, despite the existing conventions, military research is ongoing on environmental manipulation as a weapon, as demonstrated for example by the Alaska-based HAARP system,"

@ Dead-eye: I never really thought about that - that at some point in DX1 you hold the life of you buddies in your hands. More stuff to reminisce about ...

@ Roswell: Probably one of the original conspiracy archetypes. There's the old "faked alien invasion" that conspiracy that Werner von Braun supposedly warned us about. Here's why it just might become a very interesting subject (http://www.examiner.com/x-2024-Denver-UFO-Examiner~y2010m5d12-President-Eisenhower-briefed-on-ET-presence-says-former-New-Hampshire-legislator) soon.

Some more ideas:

In my book over the Bavarian Illuminati it was established that the Gold- und Rosenkreutz [Golden and Rosy Cross] were the enemies of the Illuminati and vice versa. Why? 1) They were competitors for initiates; 2) Illuminati were rationalists and outright worshippers of reason, while the Rosicrucians pursued mysticism and theosophy and indulged in all manner of practical occultism (séances, theurgy, thaumaturgy, astrology, sorcery, kabbalistic magic and alchemy), which the Illuminati frowned upon, to say the least; 3) and the fact that the Rosicrucians were also aligned with the obscurantists of religious orthodoxy, the Jesuits, and recruited members from among its ranks.http://www.bavarian-illuminati.info/?p=303

This was kind of done already in the Bob Page v Morgan Everett thing, but I always felt their differences were never fleshed out as much as they could have. The spiritual side of the Illuminati was made to sound a bit like some exercises you do in the morning to wake yourself up properly. Another way to approach this subject might be through a Project Blue Beam (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Beam) narrative.

Oh, and check out this baby, more secret renaissance church v science controversy:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/7833070/Michelangelo-hid-anatomical-sketches-in-Sistine-Chapel-in-Church-attack.html

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned MK Ultra. No Muse fans among us?

Edit: Just saw the Singularity trailer. Reminds me of the philadelphia experiment.

MaxxQ1
18th Jun 2010, 16:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sq-VmBMHkw&feature=related

No explanation needed. :mad2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBgMCTBGX_w&feature=related

Apparently, this person has never heard of sun dogs.

Added this one because it's pretty cool, and doesn't rely on conspiracy theories. Stick around 'til about 1:53.

http://vimeo.com/9410195

Kodaemon
18th Jun 2010, 17:49
@mad_red Since your post mentioned the Jesuits in relation to Rosicruicians, I'd like to point out that they're (the Jesuits) a fascinating bunch themselves, more than the common stereotypes would have you believe. Religious fanatics, sure, but they have no qualms with science, evolution etc. In fact, they have no problems with the possibility of intelligent extraterrestrial life! Of course, they'd seek to convert it to catholicism, but hey! :D