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Hiver
11th Jun 2010, 21:48
It seems there will be something about it for each day of the week ending with answering most question subscribers post in the comments up until the last day.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/10/welcome-to-deus-ex-week-heres-whats-coming/

They have a preview too from the same session Eurogamer journalist was in.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/10/1014/


Interview is on. Reading it now.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/12/deus-ex-human-revolutions-game-director-speaks/

Pinky_Powers
11th Jun 2010, 23:46
I know I say this each time, but this is the best preview so far. :D

Ashpolt
11th Jun 2010, 23:48
I’ve written a blow-by-blow account of the full playthrough of two missions, including my thoughts on seeing some of the controversial elements we’ve heard about like the third-person cover system. This is what’ll be shown behind closed doors at E3 this year, but they’re not releasing it as a trailer, so this is probably the most nerdily detailed account of all the juicy info you’ll find.

Bugger.

Cheers for the link though, I forgot PCG had a new site.

ChrisVCB
12th Jun 2010, 00:17
I'm really really stoked after this. I usually swear PC game reviews are brought and paid for. I have to say, I think even if thats normally the case, DX is too much holy ground for reviewers to dare, and what we're getting is an actual honest assessment. What convinces me more than anything else is that these preveiw authors make it known they are skeptical about the same areas that I would be skeptical of. That so far, most reviews have said "it's different, but it's still DX" - man, am I getting on the hype train.

Jerion
12th Jun 2010, 00:28
Liking this more and more. :)

EDIT: Why not release it as a trailer? Show us the uninterrupted footage, complete with voiceovers.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2010, 01:22
This really is the most detailed summary I've read yet. Thanks for posting, Hiver. :thumb:

This REALLY interests me:



The club is cool – Deus Ex 3 actually has an art style, and this interior shows thought and creativity. It’s called the Hive, and gold hexagons dot the walls – a reference both to honeycomb, and a recurring motif on a lot of the cybernetic augs the game is about.

Hope I'm not jumping to conclusions but.... Omar anyone? :rasp:
I was hoping DX:HR would cover their history.

Kruxs
12th Jun 2010, 01:34
"Looky here, we got us a boyscout"

:mad2:

Jerion
12th Jun 2010, 01:36
"Looky here, we got us a boyscout"

:mad2:

My reaction too. I hope we won't have to hear that kind of thing too much.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2010, 01:40
Promising summary at the end of the article:




That’s the end of the demo. I am left confused and excited. It’s good? It’s good! When did this become good? I thought this was going to be the slightly embarrassing bastardisation of the Deus Ex template that I would play to death anyway, find some underlying virtue in, then spend seven years apologising for. That’s what happened with Invisible War.

There are third-person kills, you can shoot from cover, and there are a few mid-mission cut-scenes. But you don’t have to clone Deus Ex to stay true to it, and seeing some of the slicker changes here gets me thinking about how silly some of Deus Ex’s rough edges really were. I usually defend them, because things like the half-blind enemies and inaccurate shooting were key to making you plan your approach. But here, I can see those things replaced by better systems without reducing the thought required.

It’s a sneakier, prettier, more violent Deus Ex. That doesn’t mean it’ll be better than Deus Ex, but just seeing a game that’s comparable gets me buzzing.

Shralla
12th Jun 2010, 02:17
Adam, you're an *******. Welcome to the Deus Ex family.

Awesome.

Hiver
12th Jun 2010, 04:21
sure, no prob guys.

I liked this bit:

One: Adam’s voice, heard properly for the first time. Holy ****, it’s gravelliest thing ever. It’s like if Clint Eastwood played Batman.
:D
That would be an awesome batman. With a magnum 44, mad squinty eyes staring from the mask and teeth gritting: Make my day... punk.

On the other hand Barret doesnt sound too good or... fresh, in any way.

Overall a really good preview and i liked the tone, the way it goes from expecting a catastrophe to squinting with one raised eyebrow to actually liking it.
And i love the way some journalists were sharing looks at some stages. hehe.

Hopefully the few bits of critical info were expecting wont be that bad.

steelle
12th Jun 2010, 04:32
"Normally each of these abilities would consume at least one of your 2-6 energy pips, and you’d need to find something to replenish them before you could bash down any more walls or blow up any more crowds. Only your first energy pip regenerates over time."

Could the health regen be working the same way?

Hiver
12th Jun 2010, 04:35
We can only hope.

Deus_Ex_Machina
12th Jun 2010, 04:36
Bugger.

Cheers for the link though, I forgot PCG had a new site.

So, is that confirmation that we won't be seeing any in-game footage during the E3 coverage?

If so, that's unforgivable.

beastosterone
12th Jun 2010, 05:15
So... 3rd person for basically everything.

Sound great... really great...

MechBFP
12th Jun 2010, 07:00
Sounds good to me. The combat in Deus Ex is fun, but definitely not as fun as it could have been. I'm looking forward to this game, even with these changes. As long as the multiple-paths-and-solutions-to-everything game play stays intact and the character development allows for a lot of different types of builds like Dues Ex, I will be happy.
I don't have any problems with "skills" being merged into augs as long as the choices we can make are meaningful and make it so you can't become a master of everything.

You guys who worry about 3rd person, go play Batman: Arkham Asylum. It has hands down the best hand-to-hand combat I have ever played in a video game. It is so fluent and easy to use, but still difficult to master. The 3rd person perspective allows you to react to things like a real trained martial artist would be able to do because of their trained intuition, hearing, etc. Non-lethal take downs in Dues Ex were usually more annoying than satisfying. With the extra flair that 3rd person and the take downs add, it solves that problem.

ZakKa89
12th Jun 2010, 07:32
Thanks. I'm reading every preview I can get my hands on.

Pinky_Powers
12th Jun 2010, 13:58
So... 3rd person for basically everything.

Sound great... really great...

No. Just the cover-system and special take-downs. But we've known that for many months now.

Oh, and of course certain conversations... just as we had in the first Deus Ex.

Everything else is first-person. Including body-dragging and crate-lifting. :D

Irate_Iguana
12th Jun 2010, 14:03
No. Just the cover-system and special take-downs. But we've known that for many months now.

Oh, and of course certain conversations... just as we had in the first Deus Ex.

Everything else is first-person. Including body-dragging and crate-lifting. :D

Also certain augs even if they don't trigger a take-down.

Corpus
12th Jun 2010, 14:06
June 15th
Interview with Art Director Jonathan Jacques-Belletete
On the Renaissance style, the neglected status of cyberpunk, and why he looks suspiciously like the main character.

This made me laugh.

Ilves
12th Jun 2010, 14:09
[...]and why he looks suspiciously like the main character.



It's true.

Pinky_Powers
12th Jun 2010, 14:14
Also certain augs even if they don't trigger a take-down.

Sure sure. And probably every time he buys a drink or does anything special.

I'm playing the first game right now, and it does it fairly often too.

WildcatPhoenix
12th Jun 2010, 15:00
"I thought this was going to be the slightly embarrassing bastardisation of the Deus Ex template that I would play to death anyway, find some underlying virtue in, then spend seven years apologising for."

This just about sums it up. :hmm:

II J0SePh X II
12th Jun 2010, 15:22
Not reading it. I've read the less in depth previews of the same missions, and it's not wise to read every bit of information pre-release, they're called spoilers for a reason.

Bluey71
12th Jun 2010, 15:34
the cover-system and special take-downs. Oh, and of course certain conversations...




Also certain augs even if they don't trigger a take-down.

And climbing ladders. Climbing ladders will also take you into 3rd person.

Pinky_Powers
12th Jun 2010, 16:18
And climbing ladders. Climbing ladders will also take you into 3rd person.

Really? I didn't know that. ...is it true? http://tech-pc.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wtf.gif

Jerion
12th Jun 2010, 16:24
Really? I didn't know that. ...is it true? http://tech-pc.co.uk/forum/images/smilies/wtf.gif

Yeah, I'm not sure this is actually true.

Bluey71
12th Jun 2010, 16:42
Rene was kind enough to answer some questions for me in a pm - I didnt specifically ask about ladders, he used ladders as an example of the types of action that will take you to 3rd person in the game.

Corpus
12th Jun 2010, 17:57
TP does help when climbing ladders like in Riddick. The stealth Element I mean. Though with leg augs you won't really need ladders :D

ChrisVCB
12th Jun 2010, 21:22
Next part of PC Gamers HR week:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/12/deus-ex-human-revolutions-game-director-speaks/

Hiver
12th Jun 2010, 21:23
Yup, jut saw it. Reading now.

Ashpolt
12th Jun 2010, 22:01
Rene was kind enough to answer some questions for me in a pm - I didnt specifically ask about ladders, he used ladders as an example of the types of action that will take you to 3rd person in the game.

Oh, goody! More third person is exactly what I wanted! Yay!

But it's OK guys, third person is totally optional. You just have to not use the cover system (and you don't have lean keys), not use certain augs, not perform melee takedowns, and not climb ladders. That's not much to miss out![/sarcasm]

Who wants to bet that dragging bodies will be done in third person as well?

[EDIT] The article just posted on PCG confirms you can take down boxguard with a pistol. <<Insert rolly eyes smiley here>>

Jerion
12th Jun 2010, 22:08
[EDIT] The article just posted on PCG confirms you can take down boxguard with a pistol. <<Insert rolly eyes smiley here>>

That's not a fair complaint. You'd run out of ammo long before you could kill it with a pistol.

Ashpolt
12th Jun 2010, 22:15
Shooting guys, playing a map stealthily, discovering a hidden area, hacking successfully, convincing a character to do something for you, and even by failing you still get XP points. You get XP points for doing critical path missions, you get XP points for side missions… and I missed a lot of things.

Oh, COME ON! And people say this game isn't being dumbed down.

[EDIT] I also really don't like the way Dugas keep making references to "left trigger" and so on control wise, even though he's speaking to PC Gamer. There is not freaking way that this is PC-led.

Deus_Ex_Machina
12th Jun 2010, 22:31
Who wants to bet that dragging bodies will be done in third person as well?

Has the ability to drag bodies even been confirmed?

Jerion
12th Jun 2010, 22:33
Has the ability to drag bodies even been confirmed?

Yes it has, and it's in first person. :thumb:

Deus_Ex_Machina
12th Jun 2010, 22:35
Yes it has, and it's in first person. :thumb:

I'll believe it when I see it, in in-game footage.

Even if dragging bodies is in, I won't at all be surprised if they make it third person as well.

ZakKa89
12th Jun 2010, 22:37
I'll believe it when I see it, in in-game footage.

Even if dragging bodies is in, I won't at all be surprised if they make it third person as well.



It's confirmed to be firstperson.

Ashpolt
12th Jun 2010, 22:40
It's confirmed to be firstperson.

Link? I know it's in there, but I haven't seen anything about it being in first person.

Hiver
12th Jun 2010, 22:41
Yes it has been confirmed and its in FP.

As to the boxguard i would be much happier if there was specific locational damage on it so we would need to hit and destroy specific targets on it - shoot out its sensors, legs, weapons and so on.

Its going to be a tough fight regardless if we take into account Adam can die by being hit with 3-4 bullets (or one to the head) and the bot will have much more damage resistance in the game.

Punching through walls sounds good in a sense of creating shortcuts even if you dont grab anyone through the hole.

The aug that lets you see people through walls seems a bit too much and i hope it will have some limited range.

But still if you take into account you will be able to use Augs sparsely because of energy consumption it seems like the need for thinking, exploring and being tactical in your approach will be very present.
(if they didnt spamm energy refills every few meters)

ZakKa89
12th Jun 2010, 22:45
Link? I know it's in there, but I haven't seen anything about it being in first person.
One of the latest previews. Don't remember which one sorry. I am 100% certain though. I think it's the german or the pc gamer one.

EDIT: Never mind found it: Adam grabs the guard’s body and drags it into a storage closet – all in first person. Corpse dragging! Yay!

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/10/1014/

IOOI
12th Jun 2010, 22:46
Rene was kind enough to answer some questions for me in a pm - I didnt specifically ask about ladders, he used ladders as an example of the types of action that will take you to 3rd person in the game.

Oh boy... :rolleyes:


TP does help when climbing ladders like in Riddick. The stealth Element I mean. Though with leg augs you won't really need ladders :D

That's precisely what I don't like about that game: mandatory view switch that brakes immersion;

Irate_Iguana
12th Jun 2010, 22:50
PCG: There seems to be a focus on making content that all players will see because everything is so expensive to make, and takes so much time. You don’t want to record more dialogue unless everybody’s going to hear that line. Anyway, how does the hacking minigame work?

This is incredibly bad journalism. In the answer to his previous question he had a hook which he could use to tear more information from Dugas. There was a perfect opportunity to find out just how HR takes on content like that. How multi-path is it really? What does mr journalist do? He comes up with a ready excuse for Dugas and just goes on to something less relevant.

Deus_Ex_Machina
12th Jun 2010, 22:54
This is incredibly bad journalism. In the answer to his previous question he had a hook which he could use to tear more information from Dugas. There was a perfect opportunity to find out just how HR takes on content like that. How multi-path is it really? What does mr journalist do? He comes up with a ready excuse for Dugas and just goes on to something less relevant.

As I've posted several times before,

Reviews and previews aren't necessarily always accurate or unbiased. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann)

ZakKa89
12th Jun 2010, 23:07
This is incredibly bad journalism. In the answer to his previous question he had a hook which he could use to tear more information from Dugas. There was a perfect opportunity to find out just how HR takes on content like that. How multi-path is it really? What does mr journalist do? He comes up with a ready excuse for Dugas and just goes on to something less relevant.

Yeah I see where you are coming from. Kind off agree. I think he was trying to squeeze in as much questions as possible in a short amount of time though. I would have loved some more in depth questions myself too on that subject but don't know if I can blame it on the journalist really.

@deus ex machina: I love Jeff.

Ashpolt
12th Jun 2010, 23:15
One of the latest previews. Don't remember which one sorry. I am 100% certain though. I think it's the german or the pc gamer one.

EDIT: Never mind found it: Adam grabs the guard’s body and drags it into a storage closet – all in first person. Corpse dragging! Yay!

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/10/1014/

Thanks for the link. That's one bit of good news at least!

Moving on - no-one other than me bothered that you still get XP even for failing objectives / tasks? No-one?

ricwhite
12th Jun 2010, 23:15
Oh, goody! More third person is exactly what I wanted! Yay!

But it's OK guys, third person is totally optional. You just have to not use the cover system (and you don't have lean keys), not use certain augs, not perform melee takedowns, and not climb ladders. That's not much to miss out![/sarcasm]

Who wants to bet that dragging bodies will be done in third person as well?

[EDIT] The article just posted on PCG confirms you can take down boxguard with a pistol. <<Insert rolly eyes smiley here>>

I like the third person elements. Many are optional. You can switch back and forth between first and third person cover. I like melee take downs in third person. I like climbing ladders in third person. Still, most interactions, shoot outs, and just roaming is in first person -- probably 90% of the game. I like what I'm seeing and reading so far. They have balanced it quite well, IMO.

Jerion
12th Jun 2010, 23:18
Thanks for the link. That's one bit of good news at least!

Moving on - no-one other than me bothered that you still get XP even for failing objectives / tasks? No-one?

Doesn't bother me terribly much, I'm going to complete things anyway. Odd decision though, want to see how they handle it. Could be there for casual players who suck.

ricwhite
12th Jun 2010, 23:19
Oh, COME ON! And people say this game isn't being dumbed down.

[EDIT] I also really don't like the way Dugas keep making references to "left trigger" and so on control wise, even though he's speaking to PC Gamer. There is not freaking way that this is PC-led.

Just because you fail an objective doesn't mean you haven't learned something and gained SOME experience. I think it's totally realistic to get some XP points. Obviously you gain more experience and knowledge from success and the points are awarded as such. From what I'm reading, I find the XP point system quite well balanced and logical.

ZakKa89
12th Jun 2010, 23:19
climbing was also third person in the Chronicles of riddick: Escape from butcher bay if I remember correctly.

That game was great.

PlasmaSnake101
12th Jun 2010, 23:25
Thanks for the link. That's one bit of good news at least!

Moving on - no-one other than me bothered that you still get XP even for failing objectives / tasks? No-one?

You can still gain experience while failing a mission. I don't think it's that big a deal, ever hear of learning from ones mistakes. With that said, I hope the XP gained is reduced to 1/4 or less.

ricwhite
12th Jun 2010, 23:25
climbing was also third person in the Chronicles of riddick: Escape from butcher bay if I remember correctly.

That game was great.

Agreed, and I generally much prefer first person over third person. But there are some times where third person makes a lot of sense and is advantageous. If it's well implemented -- such as Riddick -- then it flows really well and is not distracting at all. It sounds like DXHR developers are trying to tweak and balance it well and are implementing the best of both first- and third-person views.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2010, 23:26
Good to see so many Riddick fans here. One of my top ten fave games ever! :cool:

ZakKa89
12th Jun 2010, 23:47
Good to see so many Riddick fans here. One of my top ten fave games ever! :cool:

Never really got into the sequel though. It's nice but haven't played it for more than 3-4 hours.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
12th Jun 2010, 23:53
Never really got into the sequel though. It's nice but haven't played it for more than 3-4 hours.

Dark Athena you mean? Didn't buy it myself. I didn't realise it was a sequel, I thought it was just a remake with better graphics and multiplayer. :o

ZakKa89
12th Jun 2010, 23:58
Dark Athena you mean? Didn't buy it myself. I didn't realise it was a sequel, I thought it was just a remake with better graphics and multiplayer. :o


It's a sequel but it INCLUDES the remake of Escape from butcher bay with prettier graphics : ). So its 2 games in 1 basically.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 00:18
It's a sequel but it INCLUDES the remake of Escape from butcher bay with prettier graphics : ). So its 2 games in 1 basically.

Where the hell have I been!?! :eek:
So, there is a completely new story and a ton of different missions? I had no idea!
Admittedly, last time I read about it (way before release) everyone was saying how it was just a remake - so I passed it by. :hmm:

Thanks. Must search for a second-hand copy and play! :thumb:

JackShandy
13th Jun 2010, 00:43
Oh, goody! More third person is exactly what I wanted! Yay!
...

[EDIT] The article just posted on PCG confirms you can take down boxguard with a pistol. <<Insert rolly eyes smiley here>>

Dude, did you read the preview, or just skim through to find everything you could possibly twist against this game? As they mentioned, you can kill the bots in Deus Ex with a pistol. It just takes a huge amount of time and ammo- enough to make it near impossible. Seems like they're doing the same here.

And climbing up ladders is absolutely horrible in first person. Doesn't you remember accidentally falling off the top of a ladder and killing yourself in DE, just because of the terrible controls? Sure happened to me a few times.

Anyway, pretty much all of my worries about the third person were allayed by this update at the end, after Dugas told him that he'd like it if he liked the Rainbow 6 vegas cover system:


Update: I actually did exactly this when I got back to the UK, and fell back in love with the Vegas games. The cover system is great, perhaps the only great one I’ve tried, and it’s both useful and intuitive. Being in first-person and precisely controlling your view means that it’s almost impossible to stick to something you didn’t mean to. And being in third-person once you are in cover lets you stop and plan how you’re going to deal with the enemies you see around the corner. We’re talking about it over in the forums, come and join us if you have an opinion.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 00:46
Dude, did you read the preview, or just skim through to find everything you could possibly twist against this game? As they mentioned, you can kill the bots in Deus Ex with a pistol. It just takes a huge amount of time and ammo- enough to make it near impossible. Seems like they're doing the same here.

I read the entire thing, but I don't think "because Deus Ex did it" is justification for the new game doing it. If we're going with that, it's OK if the new game has terrible AI and often horrendous voice acting.


And climbing up ladders is absolutely horrible in first person. Doesn't you remember accidentally falling off the top of a ladder and killing yourself in DE, just because of the terrible controls? Sure happened to me a few times.

That's because Deus Ex handled ladders badly, not because ladders can't be handled in first person games. See pretty much any FPS made after 2001 or so.

TezJaggs
13th Jun 2010, 00:53
Oh, COME ON! And people say this game isn't being dumbed down.

[EDIT] I also really don't like the way Dugas keep making references to "left trigger" and so on control wise, even though he's speaking to PC Gamer. There is not freaking way that this is PC-led.

pc fanboy.
guess should expect that on here though.

JackShandy
13th Jun 2010, 00:53
I notice you didn't argue against the point that PCG thinks the cover system itself will be pretty great, Ashpolt.

Then again, I suppose we've all heard more than enough arguing over third-person.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 01:01
I read the entire thing, but I don't think "because Deus Ex did it" is justification for the new game doing it.
Using your own logic, this must mean it doesn't matter if there's HR in "DX:HR" because the first game didn't do it.



That's because Deus Ex handled ladders badly, not because ladders can't be handled in first person games. See pretty much any FPS made after 2001 or so.
Fair comment there. Still, climbing ladders in 3P is no big deal breaker (for me).

hem dazon 90
13th Jun 2010, 01:03
How about we stop arguing and have a big bowl of strawberry ice cream?

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 01:07
How about we stop arguing and have a big bowl of strawberry ice cream?

Yeah, with cookies!

68_pie
13th Jun 2010, 01:08
tbh, one would expect Dugas to have the courtesy to use the correct lexicon when speaking to a particular audience.

Wow, TezJaggs, nice ad hominem - no need for that mate. Maybe next time try responding to a point in a pleasant manner.

IOOI
13th Jun 2010, 01:25
I like the third person elements. Many are optional. You can switch back and forth between first and third person cover. I like melee take downs in third person. I like climbing ladders in third person. Still, most interactions, shoot outs, and just roaming is in first person -- probably 90% of the game. I like what I'm seeing and reading so far. They have balanced it quite well, IMO.


climbing was also third person in the Chronicles of riddick: Escape from butcher bay if I remember correctly.

That game was great.


Agreed, and I generally much prefer first person over third person. But there are some times where third person makes a lot of sense and is advantageous. If it's well implemented -- such as Riddick -- then it flows really well and is not distracting at all. It sounds like DXHR developers are trying to tweak and balance it well and are implementing the best of both first- and third-person views.

I'll say what I remember, what I didn't like and what could've been done better.

One of the things I hate most is mandatory view switching when I perform certain actions, like climbing on top of a box while at the same time beeing shot by NPCs - that sense that you are the character and that you're about to barely escape gets lost, that sense of immersion gets lost.

What could've been done better in this case is that while your climbing a box you should be able to slide quickly on top of the box or jump above the box (with the help of the hands) to get behind it. In terms of controls when near a box you would need to press jump + tap forward twice to get this done.

The important here to me is to not brake the flow of the action. Changing to Third-Person while you escaping some raid brakes it - either you're climbing a ladder or a box.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 01:25
I notice you didn't argue against the point that PCG thinks the cover system itself will be pretty great, Ashpolt.

Well he says that it's like Rainbow Six: Vegas - which is what a bunch of us here assumed ages ago. I think that cover system worked well....for Rainbow Six: Vegas. That doesn't mean I think it's the right decision for a Deus Ex game. (Also, the R6:V cover system was entirely based around controllers, it doesn't work that well with mouse & keyboard.)


Using your own logic, this must mean it doesn't matter if there's HR in "DX:HR" because the first game didn't do it.

Close, but not exactly. It wouldn't matter that they'd removed the existing health system....if they were replacing it with something better. What I was saying to JackShandy was that where Deus Ex did things badly, that's no excuse for DXHR to do them badly as well. Where DX did things well, I think they should keep them in. Basically, they should take what worked and fix what didn't - you know, like sequels/prequels do. The parts I don't like about DXHR are where they've taken things that already worked perfectly well (or could've worked very well with some minor tweaks, as is the case with the health system) and got rid of them or oversimplified them, or where they've just added in things that are akin to sticking rudders on an aeroplane (i.e. third person.)

TezJaggs
13th Jun 2010, 01:28
tbh, one would expect Dugas to have the courtesy to use the correct lexicon when speaking to a particular audience.

Wow, TezJaggs, nice ad hominem - no need for that mate. Maybe next time try responding to a point in a pleasant manner.

i am hyped for this game, but i am going to cancel my account on these forums coz im already fed up of all the pc fanboys moaning about the game.
why cant they understand they are a dieing breed and that game companies dont care what the pc elitist minority think.
after reading many many threads in these forums i actually hate pc gamers, particularly the pc gamers in this forum.
i cant wait for this game and i hope everyone enjoys it, as it looks sublime.
and i hope the moaning groaning pc elitists burn in hell.

hem dazon 90
13th Jun 2010, 01:31
^

Ughh little extreamist much?

Corpus
13th Jun 2010, 01:42
Tbh I think the fanboys are annoyed because the devs are honestly trying to cater for all platforms. I'm hopeful this might be the first game to bridge the gaps between the platforms without loss of quality.

JackShandy
13th Jun 2010, 01:56
See, I agree with a lot of your points, Ashpolt- I just don't think they'll be game-breakers.

Third Person could quite possibly break immersion. For health regen, even super-simple cartoon kids-games like Ratchet and Clank had medipacks, so I don't think leaving it out would make the game harder- and Deus Ex has always been about exploring the environment to find things that will help you, so I don't see why they'd be against that. There's a few other things removed that I liked in deus ex.

But fact is, every other bit of news has been emphasising the multiple paths, the choice, the world-building, etc etc etc. And if they get that right, then none of this stuff is going to ruin the game for me. Deus ex was never ruined by going into third-person for conversations, or by being able to kill bots with a pistol. Going into third person all the time, even if it somehow manages to be as jarring as the battle transitions in a JRPG, isn't going to somehow kill the choice and consequence. Haqving my health regenerate isn't going to destroy the freedom. And it really does look like they're getting that part right.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 02:08
i am hyped for this game, but i am going to cancel my account on these forums coz im already fed up of all the pc fanboys moaning about the game.
why cant they understand they are a dieing breed and that game companies dont care what the pc elitist minority think.
after reading many many threads in these forums i actually hate pc gamers, particularly the pc gamers in this forum.
i cant wait for this game and i hope everyone enjoys it, as it looks sublime.
and i hope the moaning groaning pc elitists burn in hell.

Bye! :wave:


Tbh I think the fanboys are annoyed because the devs are honestly trying to cater for all platforms. I'm hopeful this might be the first game to bridge the gaps between the platforms without loss of quality.

First things first: I wouldn't call myself a PC "fanboy." I play games on PC first and foremost, but I do also own all the current consoles and handhelds, and play on them regularly. Well, maybe not my DS.

However, speaking from a PC gamer's perspective, the reason we're annoyed is because a) this is a series that started on PC, and moving to the consoles means a game designed around console limitations - see Invisible War - and b) early in development, Eidos Montreal said that this title was to have PC as the lead platform, which is becoming increasingly rare nowadays. As such, hearing otherwise is all the more disappointing than if they just hadn't said so in the first place.

Returning to point a), if they could make this cross platform with no concessions to quality or complexity, I'd have no problems with it being on other formats at all. But think about the original Deus Ex: not enough buttons on console controllers to have hotkeys, so they've got to go. They're going to have to find a way to simplify control of the augs as well, because again, not enough buttons. Text entry takes ages on a controller, so typing in usernames and passwords will have to go (as it did with Invisible War.) Also, as I've mentioned above, the R6:V cover system was entirely designed with controllers in mind, and doesn't translate all that well to mouse and keyboard. This isn't even getting into how the very limited RAM of current consoles will limit what EM can do.

Again, I'm not saying consoles are worse, but they're different, and a game designed with consoles in mind will not take full advantage of what the PC has to offer.

[EDIT] Damnit JackShandy, stop replying while I'm typing a reply to someone else! Two threads in a row! :P


See, I agree with a lot of your points, Ashpolt- I just don't think they'll be game-breakers.

I'll one-up you here, and say I'm damn sure they won't be game breakers. But they will detract from the game. Think about Invisible War - none of its faults were game breakers, but all added together, they made an experience that was underwhelming compared to its predecessor. And it wasn't a bad game, it just wasn't the game it could've been - and that's what I think will happen with DXHR. I have no doubt it'll be at least a solid 7/10, more likely an 8 - but personally, I don't think that's something devs should aim for, or something we should be satisfied with. A game with DXHR's setting, plot and production values, but retaining all the gameplay depth of the original, could very well make a 10/10 game, and something truly special and unique. Why should we be happy with anything less?

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 02:15
(Also, the R6:V cover system was entirely based around controllers, it doesn't work that well with mouse & keyboard.)

Your opinion... which is WRONG! I know, opinions are sacred, they can't be... no, you're simply wrong. That system was just as fluid and fun to use on PC with keyboard and mouse as it was with any gamepad. It just worked, and worked very well.

Ulysses
13th Jun 2010, 02:38
Shame they're looking at that game. R6 Vegas is a blight on the bloody series (thanks Ubisoft). The cover system does work pretty well in it though, as gimmicky as the cover system makes games - see ME2 with all the conveniently place cover spots. It would be nice if cover wasn't the all powerful shield it is in pretty much every game I've played it in.

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 02:57
Shame they're looking at that game. R6 Vegas is a blight on the bloody series (thanks Ubisoft). The cover system does work pretty well in it though, as gimmicky as the cover system makes games - see ME2 with all the conveniently place cover spots. It would be nice if cover wasn't the all powerful shield it is in pretty much every game I've played it in.

The series was dead long before Vegas released. It might be a terrible Rainbow Six game, but it was damn fun. Just be happy they stamped it with a special tag to separate it from the originals. Vegas is it's own thing, and it works well for what it is.

The thing you have to keep in mind with Deus Ex: Human Revolution, is the cover system is used for stealth, perhaps even more than it is for combat. So it won't turn the game into a Vegas shooter, unless you work hard to play it that way.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 03:04
Shame they're looking at that game. R6 Vegas is a blight on the bloody series (thanks Ubisoft).

Part of the thanks / blame for that goes to Jean-Francois Dugas, who is now the game director of DXHR!

http://skepacabra.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/the-more-you-know.jpg

Ulysses
13th Jun 2010, 03:22
Part of the thanks / blame for that goes to Jean-Francois Dugas, who is now the game director of DXHR!

http://skepacabra.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/the-more-you-know.jpg


Hahaha, I didn't know that. Lovely. :)

Ferral25
13th Jun 2010, 04:07
... and that game companies dont care what the pc elitist minority think.


Sorry for my english, but do you speek about EM ? If yes, i don't think so. First, a lot of people who work on DXHR ARE pc elitist . Tell me if i'm wrong. Second, if the Deus Ex series continues it's because a lot of PC gamers ARE fanatics. No doubt about that.
On other side, The PC is the best interface and it's the perfect ergonomic choice to play 3D complex Simulation software. How to control with precision an aircraft , a submarine, a tank or a avatar with one and only gamepad?
How to interact, communicate and deal with a virtual complex environment ?
For me, the answer is simple: PC Interface. I need to be smooth and concentrate to control quickly critical moments or phases . I don't want to make mistake. It's a matter of ergonomics: a seperate interfaces give the minimum physical space between the hands to have better control. So, my old brain can communicate better with my hands and my fingers. I can't do that with one gamepad. It's not enough. My fingers are too close to each other.
I had a chance to tried a game with a Playstation 3 at one of my friend appartment and I had a bad experience.
But don't worry be happy. We will be able to play all the game by only talking and walking quietly.
As for Deus Ex, the console has to adapt to the game after all, and not the other.

Destroyerzero
13th Jun 2010, 07:38
I wonder if it would have the element that existed in Jedi Knights or Jedi Academy.

I refer to the idea that the game defaulted to a First Person view when using firearms and went into a third person view when using Melee Weapons allowing you to see the area around you and really have a good hand to hand combat experience.

My favorite thing to the Original DeusEx was that it really had things to make knifers come alive. I loved Assault Rifles because of the dropdown animation, but nothing was as priceless as being able to become a Ninja in the multiplayer and DTS/CK and throwing knife everything.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 08:17
I have no doubt it'll be at least a solid 7/10, more likely an 8 - but personally, I don't think that's something devs should aim for, or something we should be satisfied with. A game with DXHR's setting, plot and production values, but retaining all the gameplay depth of the original, could very well make a 10/10 game, and something truly special and unique. Why should we be happy with anything less?

Well, yeah, it goes without saying that 10/10 would be amazing but, given your usual cute rants and moans, the fact that you would score the game 8/10 as it currently stands is even more amazing!! :eek:
LOL, too funny.



Your opinion... which is WRONG! I know, opinions are sacred, they can't be... no, you're simply wrong. That system was just as fluid and fun to use on PC with keyboard and mouse as it was with any gamepad. It just worked, and worked very well.

I agree. I found the system worked very well, no problems at all. :thumb:

Irate_Iguana
13th Jun 2010, 10:24
The thing you have to keep in mind with Deus Ex: Human Revolution, is the cover system is used for stealth, perhaps even more than it is for combat. So it won't turn the game into a Vegas shooter, unless you work hard to play it that way.

They emphasize how it will be used in combat. Sliding from cover to cover. Aiming out of cover. Everything they mention is about combat. After that they also say that it will be useful in stealth for peaking around corners. Has to be since there is no lean. Dugas is using his Vegas experience for the combat portion of the game and seems pretty focused on that.

IH-Denton
13th Jun 2010, 11:56
What happened with http://www.pcgamer.com ?
I've got this message:

The page you are looking for is temporarily unavailable.
Please try again later.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 12:05
OMG! They're being silenced! :eek:

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 12:33
They have been hacked by Illuminati , obviously.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 15:10
Well, yeah, it goes without saying that 10/10 would be amazing but, given your usual cute rants and moans, the fact that you would score the game 8/10 as it currently stands is even more amazing!! :eek:
LOL, too funny.

As I said in my previous post though, I don't consider 8/10 an achievement when we're talking about a Deus Ex game. I'd also give Invisible War 8/10, and I wouldn't consider another game of that quality to be anything worth celebrating.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 15:12
As I said in my previous post though, I don't consider 8/10 an achievement when we're talking about a Deus Ex game. I'd also give Invisible War 8/10, and I wouldn't consider another game of that quality to be anything worth celebrating.

Even so, very generous scores there. I was honestly quite surprised.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 15:18
Even so, very generous scores there. I was honestly quite surprised.

To be fair, I (don't think, at least) I've ever said that I expect it to be a poor game when completely detached from the Deus Ex name. I think schizo-cam will make it clunky, but other than that, if all you're looking for is a reasonably competent action RPG-lite with a good setting, then I'm sure you'll be in for a treat. I just don't think it'll be good as a Deus Ex game, and certainly not the spectacular piece of entertainment that Deus Ex with 10 years' better technology has the potential to be.

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 15:19
They emphasize how it will be used in combat.

I stopped reading there. I've read every interview and every preview summery of the passed few weeks (or has it only been one week?) and they almost all of them emphasize stealth over combat, and how the cover system is used for sneaking along walls and peaking around corners.

Yes, at the end of the preview they take on the Boxguard in combat, and slide from cover to cover like Gears of War. This scene takes about a minute or two. The rest of the demo was moving about in stealth, or walking openly in non-hostile environments.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 15:25
To be fair, I (don't think, at least) I've ever said that I expect it to be a poor game when completely detached from the Deus Ex name.

So, let me understand this statement correctly. You mean to say, in otherwords, that you do expect it to be a poor game because it is attached to the Deus Ex name? :scratch:

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 15:27
To be fair, I (don't think, at least) I've ever said that I expect it to be a poor game when completely detached from the Deus Ex name.

Let's say Human Revolution will be a decent game. Or, on your terms, "not a poor game" and extrapolate from there...

So HR is not a poor game, but a poor Deus Ex game. But RH is not a poor game and IS a Deus Ex game. Therefore HR is not a poor Deus Ex game.

It might not be a sound theory, but you get my drift. If Human Revolution turns out to be a decent game, then no matter how you want to compare it, it's in truth a decent Deus Ex game. And that's what's important to me.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 15:34
Its not a "schizo-cam". Making such statements makes your arguments look just ridiculous.

To me this much childish butthurt over one graphical feature (while the game as a whole remains fp) and calling the game "not a DX game" on account of it, when what truly matters is the same or improved - is beyond pathetic.

On one side DX players rave about freedom of choice and non linear paths through objectives as what is the best thing about DX but then cry because of some TP features and call DX:HR something else. Or even a bad game.

In fact, this doesnt have anything to do with DX at all. its just that you FP-ers are so gone in your heads thats its all you care about.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 15:35
Let's say Human Revolution will be a decent game. Or, on your terms, "not a poor game" and extrapolate from there...

So HR is not a poor game, but a poor Deus Ex game. But RH is not a poor game and IS a Deus Ex game. Therefore HR is not a poor Deus Ex game.

It might not be a sound theory, but you get my drift. If Human Revolution turns out to be a decent game, then no matter how you want to compare it, it's in truth a decent Deus Ex game. And that's what's important to me.

Hehe, I love it.

Pinky For President!!!

Ilves
13th Jun 2010, 15:36
^ No no no. If HR wants to qualify as a DX game, different (higher) standards apply, is the argument I believe.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 15:37
So, let me understand this statement correctly. You mean to say, in otherwords, that you do expect it to be a poor game because it is attached to the Deus Ex name? :scratch:

*Removes non-existent glasses, sighs, rubs bridge of his nose, sighs again, puts non-existent glasses back on.*

No.

Moving on:


Let's say Human Revolution will be a decent game. Or, on your terms, "not a poor game" and extrapolate from there...

So HR is not a poor game, but a poor Deus Ex game. But RH is not a poor game and IS a Deus Ex game. Therefore HR is not a poor Deus Ex game.

It might not be a sound theory, but you get my drift. If Human Revolution turns out to be a decent game, then no matter how you want to compare it, it's in truth a decent Deus Ex game. And that's what's important to me.

It really depends on how you classify "Deus Ex game." If you're happy to call it a Deus Ex game simply by virtue of having the Deus Ex name attached, then sure, it's a Deus Ex game. I'm not, however, and as such your way of thinking doesn't work for me. A game that played exactly the same as Gears of War (for instance, not saying this is the case with DXHR) but was in a cyberpunk setting and was nominally part of the DX series would not, in my view, be a good Deus Ex game. It could be a great game in its own right, and coould be called Deus Ex by the devs in order to cash in on the name, but it wouldn't have any link to the series beyond that cash-in name-drop.

So, to summarise: there is a difference between "a good Deus Ex game" and "a good game which happens to use the Deus Ex name," and I think DXHR will mostly succeed at the latter, but mostly fail at the former.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 15:39
*Removes non-existent glasses, sighs, rubs bridge of his nose, sighs again, puts non-existent glasses back on.*
.

Not really. I'm not the only one who read it like you said it.



It really depends on how you classify "Deus Ex game." If you're happy to call it a Deus Ex game simply by virtue of having the Deus Ex name attached, then sure, it's a Deus Ex game. .

No, we're happy it's classified as a "Deus Ex game" because the story relates to the original game, for one thing.





^ No no no. If HR wants to qualify as a DX game, different standards apply, is the argument I believe.

Hear what you say, But this is very much a personal argument, of course. :)

Ilves
13th Jun 2010, 15:41
Hear what you say, But this is very much a personal argument, of course. :)

Absolutely. And personally I'm closer to Pinky's standpoint than Ashes, in the sense that for me HR seems to bring what I loved in DX in the first place by the truckloads. But I do think the oldskoolers have valid complaints, and I share a small number of them.

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 15:48
Absolutely. And personally I'm closer to Pinky's standpoint than Ashes, in the sense that for me HR seems to bring what I loved in DX in the first place by the truckloads. But I do think the oldskoolers have valid complaints, and I share a small number of them.

Yeah, me too.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 15:53
Absolutely. And personally I'm closer to Pinky's standpoint than Ashes, in the sense that for me HR seems to bring what I loved in DX in the first place by the truckloads. But I do think the oldskoolers have valid complaints, and I share a small number of them.


Yes, there are valid complaints being made but sometimes their validity becomes lost, abused even, with buckets full of conjecture and pessimism. Not that this isn't allowed... but just that the actual reasons don't stand up in court - "deus ex shouldn't be in the title", for example: I just find this ridiculous.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 15:57
Its not a "schizo-cam". Making such statements makes your arguments look just ridiculous.

To me this much childish butthurt over one graphical feature (while the game as a whole remains fp) and calling the game "not a DX game" on account of it, when what truly matters is the same or improved - is beyond pathetic.

I call it schizo-cam because that's what it is: a camera system that has an inconsistent sense of player identity. One second you are Adam Jensen, the next you're controlling him like a puppet. Hence, schizo-cam. Besides, it's quicker and easier than typing out "first person with frequent contextual third person elements" every time.

And FYI: if you're going to attempt to criticise someone for being childish, don't use the word "butthurt."


On one side DX players rave about freedom of choice and non linear paths through objectives as what is the best thing about DX but then cry because of some TP features and call DX:HR something else. Or even a bad game.

In fact, this doesnt have anything to do with DX at all. its just that you FP-ers are so gone in your heads thats its all you care about.

OK, firstly, the reason I say I don't expect this to be a true Deus Ex game is about more than just third person: it's also about health regen, simplified game mechanics (no lockpicking or multitools anymore,) lack of character skills, emphasis on Hollywood "cool" over the more reserved, grounded and realistic storytelling style and setting of DX1, inconsistency in terms of setting and technology with the original game, use of minigames for hacking, etc etc. Third person is just a part of it.

Secondly, yes, freedom of choice and non-linear paths are what most people would identify as the best parts of DX1, and they probably wouldn't name the first person perspective - but that's not because it's not important, it's just because it goes almost without saying that it was a key element of the experience. I think the best way to explain my point is with an example:

I drive a Vauxhall Astra (Opel Astra for the rest of Europe.) If someone asked me what the defining factors of this car were, and what made me choose to drive it, I would say things like reliability, good fuel mileage, comfort, correct price, etc. They would be what I would identify as the "core features" of this car. I would not, under those circumstances, list the fact that the car has wheels, or has an engine, because they're just things that I would expect from a car: if someone were to offer me the same car but without wheels or an engine, however, I wouldn't buy it, even though it would still have the "core features" that I listed earlier. Similarly, when asked to list the core features of Deus Ex, I would just take it for granted that a first person perspective, the fact that you get to shoot things, skill points etc are intrinsically part of an FPSRPG / "immersive simulator."


Absolutely. And personally I'm closer to Pinky's standpoint than Ashes, in the sense that for me HR seems to bring what I loved in DX in the first place by the truckloads. But I do think the oldskoolers have valid complaints, and I share a small number of them.

As above, they may well get the very core elements of Deus Ex right, but they'll need to do more than that for me to call it a good Deus Ex game, getting just the skeleton of the DX experience, while a good start, is not enough. After all, Invisible War had choice / consequence, multi-path solutions, a "complex, multilayered plot" that followed on from the original, etc - in fact, in everything except for use of XP, it had all the same things that EM are listing for DXHR as being proof that it's close to the DX experience. But I think most people would agree that a game that's simply on par with Invisible War would not be good enough - hell, about 50% of Eidos Montreal's marketing push is based on saying "this isn't going to be another Invisible War, honestly! We don't have universal ammo!" :D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 16:00
And FYI: if you're going to attempt to criticise someone for being childish, don't use the word "butthurt."

LOL, too funny! :D

Ilves
13th Jun 2010, 16:01
[...] sometimes their validity becomes lost, abused even, with buckets full of conjecture and pessimism.

Hmmm, I think those voices are sufficiently balanced out by the equally baseless 'if you don't like HR GTFO' - yahoos streaming in since the last trailer. In any case our resident negativists are infinitely more well versed about their opinion, if you'll allow me to generalize... ;)


As above, they may well get the very core elements of Deus Ex right, but they'll need to do more than that for me to call it a good Deus Ex game, getting just the skeleton of the DX experience, while a good start, is not enough. After all, Invisible War had choice / consequence, multi-path solutions, a "complex, multilayered plot" that followed on from the original, etc - in fact, in everything except for use of XP, it had all the same things that EM are listing for DXHR as being proof that it's close to the DX experience.

... Which brings us back to MyImmortal's point; what makes a DX game is merely subjective. But fair enough, if you look at Gaming (capitalized) in the last decade as a massive whole, the features you list above are what made DX unique, and therefor carrying the DX name comes with the obligation to incorporate at least these elements.

Here (http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1417736&postcount=35) are my final thoughts on EM's departure of the classic DX, and with that I'm going to retreat from this snake pit debate... :D

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 16:04
^
Absolutely. I did confirm that it's allowed... all opinions are welcome, whether we agree with them or not.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 16:04
Hmmm, I think those voices are sufficiently balanced out by the equally baseless 'if you don't like HR GTFO' - yahoos streaming in since the last trailer. In any case our resident negativists are infinitely more well versed about their opinion, if you'll allow me to generalize... ;)

Thankyou! You are my new best internet friend. Come, let us drink tea under ye olde oak tree.

...Yeah I don't have a clue where I was going with that either, it's just nice to have someone acknowledge that at least the "negativists" generally attempt to explain their points as opposed to "stop whining! if you don't like it gtfo! butthurt!"

I replied to your last post btw, but it's got lost now we've gone to the new page.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 16:29
I call it schizo-cam because that's what it is: a camera system that has an inconsistent sense of player identity. One second you are Adam Jensen, the next you're controlling him like a puppet. Hence, schizo-cam. Besides, it's quicker and easier than typing out "first person with frequent contextual third person elements" every time.

And FYI: if you're going to attempt to criticise someone for being childish, don't use the word "butthurt."
Why? Butthurt precisely explains the childish attitude of such arguments.

Schizo-cam is a cheap overstatement meant to make it like the camera will be something so frantic it will cause schizophrenia in players.
Thats bull****.

There is no disconnect from the character when you go into TP unless you yourself force it in your mind.
Immersion comes from the quality of the game not from the PoV.
And your not playing yourself so much as the character. There is always a duality of connection to the character in the game present and sometimes going to TP wont break any immersion once the game itself sucks you in.
It never bothered anyone in Riddick and it wont bother anyone here.

To many people narrow limited view of FP has numerous negative effects too.
Its an acquired taste, not something inherent.

Anyway, the game is FP 90% of the time and such complaints would be valid only if it was totally changed into TP from start to finish.





OK, firstly, the reason I say I don't expect this to be a true Deus Ex game is about more than just third person: it's also about health regen, simplified game mechanics (no lockpicking or multitools anymore,) lack of character skills, emphasis on Hollywood "cool" over the more reserved, grounded and realistic storytelling style and setting of DX1, inconsistency in terms of setting and technology with the original game, use of minigames for hacking, etc etc. Third person is just a part of it.

Health regen is its weakest spot as far as im concerned too but we were told it wont be as cheap as Health Regen
(hmm HR :P) as in CoD and other similar games.
There seems to be some time peroid where you have to wait until it kicks in and it may be further limited which i hope it will be. The confirmed existence of some kind of med-packs seems to go along with this theory.

Thats the only thing you got right, btw. (half right i hope)

Game mechanics are not simplified and its ridiculous to say so based on lack of lockpicking or multitools.

Skills are still in the game, only now they are called Augmentations and from what we can see Augs will bring much more gameplay abilities, each playing a deeply significant gameplay changing role, - then all skills and augs combined from the first two games.

Hollywood cool? In games? hahahaha...
btw thats your personal invention and nothing more. I dont see any cheap Hollywood moves or cheap story or anything else that could be qualified as such - while the seriousness of the setting and the overall story remained - by all we know - a serious cyberpunk experience with its deep social and personal repercussions.

Whats inconsistent in the setting and technology?
HR is simply better designed, with better graphical technology available and the fact that design of futuristic features has moved on.

When you look at Gunther today he simply looks laughable and ridiculous.

Im not that crazy about minigames myself (in fact i hate them) but as long as they are skill (aug) connected i can survive if they are not really dumb and tiresome.



Secondly, yes, freedom of choice and non-linear paths are what most people would identify as the best parts of DX1, and they probably wouldn't name the first person perspective - but that's not because it's not important, it's just because it goes almost without saying that it was a key element of the experience. I think the best way to explain my point is with an example:

I drive a Vauxhall Astra (Opel Astra for the rest of Europe.) If someone asked me what the defining factors of this car were, and what made me choose to drive it, I would say things like reliability, good fuel mileage, comfort, correct price, etc. They would be what I would identify as the "core features" of this car. I would not, under those circumstances, list the fact that the car has wheels, or has an engine, because they're just things that I would expect from a car: if someone were to offer me the same car but without wheels or an engine, however, I wouldn't buy it, even though it would still have the "core features" that I listed earlier. Similarly, when asked to list the core features of Deus Ex, I would just take it for granted that a first person perspective, the fact that you get to shoot things, skill points etc are intrinsically part of an FPSRPG / "immersive simulator."
Well, nobody took out the wheels or the engine of this game/car and left it with nothing instead.
They just added something new on top of the old ones.
Now besides your old wheels you have ... i dont know... small jets and the engine is a new shinier and better one then your old one. Or your old one only spruced up, cleaned and with turbo injectors installed.

Is that not still your car?



As above, they may well get the very core elements of Deus Ex right, but they'll need to do more than that for me to call it a good Deus Ex game, getting just the skeleton of the DX experience, while a good start, is not enough.
They did much more then got right just the skeleton. Youre either just being stubborn or are inventing ie lying.


After all, Invisible War had choice / consequence, multi-path solutions, a "complex, multilayered plot" that followed on from the original, etc - in fact, in everything except for use of XP, it had all the same things that EM are listing for DXHR as being proof that it's close to the DX experience. But I think most people would agree that a game that's simply on par with Invisible War would not be good enough - hell, about 50% of Eidos Montreal's marketing push is based on saying "this isn't going to be another Invisible War, honestly! We don't have universal ammo!" :D
Did IW have FP camera all the way? What did make it a failure as a DX game according to you?

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 16:33
Good debate (between Ilves and Ashpolt). And I agree wholeheartedly with you, Ashpolt about Human Revolution needing to be more than IW to really be a good Deus Ex game. I feel the core of Deus Ex is there, so with all the gameplay elements of HR in mind, I think surpassing IW will come down to story, characters, environments and atmosphere.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 16:38
Good debate (between Ilves and Ashpolt). And I agree wholeheartedly with you, Ashpolt about Human Revolution needing to be more than IW to really be a good Deus Ex game

I think everyone agrees with this one particular point.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 16:44
I really dont mind people criticizing the new game or some specific features it has but i would really hope to see some actual arguments rather then overblown statements.

beastosterone
13th Jun 2010, 16:52
One has to wonder if agreeing also means understanding.

Everything I hear from your side of the fence is "it's made to be more accessible and easier and thus more "fun" so go play something else if you don't like it"

The worst ******* thing to ever say, btw. Especially regarding Deus Ex of all games.

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 16:56
I think everyone agrees with this one particular point.

When you put it like that...

Thanks for making me feel like a douche for saying it! :(

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 16:56
Schizo-cam is a cheap overstatement meant to make it like the camera will be something so frantic it will cause schizophrenia in players.
Thats bull****.

:lol: No, I call it schizo-cam because I'm suggesting the camera itself is schizophrenic.


To many people narrow limited view of FP has numerous negative effects too.

Such as....?


Anyway, the game is FP 90% of the time and such complaints would be valid only if it was totally changed into TP from start to finish.

You're acknowledging that my complaining about it spoiling immersion would be valid if the game was in third person all the way through.
Thus, you're acknowledging that third person is inherently less immersive than first person.
Thus, the rest of your argument here breaks down.


Health regen is its weakest spot as far as im concerned too but we were told it wont be as cheap as Health Regen
(hmm HR :P) as in CoD and other similar games.
There seems to be some time peroid where you have to wait until it kicks in and it may be further limited which i hope it will be. The confirmed existence of some kind of med-packs seems to go along with this theory.

It could be that the system they use won't be terrible - if EM would actually come out and give us details of it we'd know for sure, rather than having to guess, and I think the fact that they won't give us details is a bad sign. What we do know for sure though is that limb damage is out, and that's the big change that I'm bothered about in terms of the health system. We're just down to a single HP bar now with no affect on your performance. However they handle health regen, that part is a simplification.


Game mechanics are not simplified and its ridiculous to say so based on lack of lockpicking or multitools.

Why is it ridiculous to say so? It's two less options open to the player. That's simplification pretty much by definition.


Skills are still in the game, only now they are called Augmentations and from what we can see Augs will bring much more gameplay abilities, each playing a deeply significant gameplay changing role, - then all skills and augs combined from the first two games.

I said player skills are out, not that upgrading is out entirely. It's a pretty subtle difference and, of the things I listed, the one I'm least bothered about, but it's still there. IW still had aug upgrades.


Hollywood cool? In games? hahahaha...
btw thats your personal invention and nothing more. I dont see any cheap Hollywood moves or cheap story or anything else that could be qualified as such - while the seriousness of the setting and the overall story remained - by all we know - a serious cyberpunk experience with its deep social and personal repercussions.

EM have said numerous times in interviews that third person is being used for takedowns / certain augs in order to show off Adam's "cool moves" - yes, that's their wording, not mine.


Whats inconsistent in the setting and technology?
HR is simply better designed, with better graphical technology available and the fact that design of futuristic features has moved on.

This has been discussed dozens of times. As with player skills, this is not something I'm massively bothered about, so I'm happy to leave the explanation here to people who are more concerned about it, but it's still one more factor to take into account.


Im not that crazy about minigames myself (in fact i hate them) but as long as they are skill (aug) connected i can survive if they are not really dumb and tiresome.

That's my concern - that they will become tiresome. Consider how often you hacked in DX1. Now consider the fact that, because multitools and lockpicks are out, we're going to be relying on hacking when we want to shut down all cameras, open all doors (except when we have a key) and so on, so hacking is definitely going to be more frequent. Now imagine having to play a minigame every time you do that - even if it's only 15 seconds or so, it's still going to be distracting.


Well, nobody took out the wheels or the engine of this game/car and left it with nothing instead.
They just added something new on top of the old ones.
Now besides your old wheels you have ... i dont know... small jets and the engine is a new shinier and better one then your old one. Or your old one only spruced up, cleaned and with turbo injectors installed.

And those jets and turbo injectors are going to ruin my fuel efficiency. See my point? Besides, I don't see third person etc as adding new jets or whatever, I see them more as adding rudders or giant cardboard fins. I've yet to see anyone say why third person (etc) is actually a good thing, I've just seen people explain why they think it won't be a bad thing, and then from that make the logical leap that it must, therefore, be a good thing.


Did IW have FP camera all the way? What did make it a failure as a DX game according to you?

What made IW a failure was a large number of small factors, rather than any one single terrible factor, and that's what I'm worried will happen to DXHR. None of the changes are unbearable in themself - though I maintain that the "first person with frequent switches to third person camera" (happy now?) is a larger and more detrimental change than any IW made - but added together, they will probably create an experience that's lacking.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 17:03
When you put it like that...
Exactly. ;)


Thanks for making me feel like a douche for saying it! :(
Hehe, don't worry... we understand each other.

Tecman
13th Jun 2010, 17:04
I really dont mind people criticizing the new game or some specific features it has but i would really hope to see some actual arguments rather then overblown statements.

Sadly, it's the usual nature of the Internet and Discussion Boards in particular to think of something you're talking about as either the "BEST EVER" or the "WORST EVER". I dislike both the pure negativists and the pure positivists just because they forget that it isn't just about them writing and venting / knighting, it's about people reading the posts as well. And having two polar opposites just constantly whine about the other gets tiring and boring to read very quickly. So there's nothing wrong with someone critiquing the game as long as they articulate their thoughts well and that they are capable of distancing themselves from their tastes and personal expectations - the same goes for people who do nothing else but post positive feedback. As someone who from time to time works on visual projects, I hate the "OMG BEST EVAR" people just as much as I hate the "OMG DIS SUX" crowd simply because, to me, it's just noise without substance. I cannot improve my work based on any of the two.

RE: DX:HR, from what I have read so far, certain things that are planned annoy me and certain things sound pretty much amazing. Sometimes it's both: Multitools gone? Christ I'll miss them, but maybe it's just tech that isn't meant to exist yet. It's just taste, and as long as they implement the features I may not like in a relatively unobtrusive manner and take care to design the interface and gameplay mechanics and write the tech running the game to be actually workable (IW made a lot of bad design choices in my eyes, but it was the unstable TECH -at least on every computer I've owned up till and including the current one - that genuinely made me angry), I'll probably like it overall. Sometimes it isn't about the gameplay mechanic on its own, it's the thought behind it and what it actually accomplishes relating to the game that matters. And at other times it's just so infuriatingly annoying that you can't help but being angry at it. :o And then there's the actual implementation of a certain feature - it can be done well, or it can be done dreadfully.

Just keep those things in mind. :)

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 17:10
I dislike both the pure negativists and the pure positivists just because they forget that it isn't just about them writing and venting / knighting, it's about people reading the posts as well. And having two polar opposites just constantly whine about the other gets tiring and boring to read very quickly.

I completely agree. No matter whether you're an optimist, a pessimist or an in-betweener - you are still able to put your point of view across without the need to make it sound like a 'whine' That's where it all goes wrong, imo.

IOOI
13th Jun 2010, 17:47
Why? Butthurt precisely explains the childish attitude of such arguments.

Schizo-cam is a cheap overstatement meant to make it like the camera will be something so frantic it will cause schizophrenia in players.
Thats bull****.

There is no disconnect from the character when you go into TP unless you yourself force it in your mind.
Immersion comes from the quality of the game not from the PoV.
And your not playing yourself so much as the character. There is always a duality of connection to the character in the game present and sometimes going to TP wont break any immersion once the game itself sucks you in.
It never bothered anyone in Riddick and it wont bother anyone here.

To many people narrow limited view of FP has numerous negative effects too.
Its an acquired taste, not something inherent.

Anyway, the game is FP 90% of the time and such complaints would be valid only if it was totally changed into TP from start to finish.

There wouldn't be the slightest problem if TP was optional, if there was also FP cover (I don't know how many times this was repeated).

Answering the bold parts:


One of the things I hate most is mandatory view switching when I perform certain actions, like climbing on top of a box while at the same time beeing shot by NPCs - that sense that you are the character and that you're about to barely escape gets lost, that sense of immersion gets lost.

What could've been done better in this case is that while your climbing a box you should be able to slide quickly on top of the box or jump above the box (with the help of the hands) to get behind it. In terms of controls when near a box you would need to press jump + tap forward twice to get this done.

The important here to me is to not brake the flow of the action. Changing to Third-Person while you escaping some raid brakes it - either you're climbing a ladder or a box.

And you know why this is frustating? Because while your climbing a box you have to watch an animation of it and you have no control and you can't dodge/hide quickly from a raid of bullets coming from behind. This could be improved, like I said above, and there wouldn't be no need to change view. The other thing that devs could've thought and done *from the very beggining* would be making FP/TP views optional, because I thought FP was granted in a DX game.

Devs say they know what the core elements of DX are but still they make awkward options that people aren't expecting, they say they want to give you choices but they make the mistake to not give simple options like that.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 17:47
:lol: No, I call it schizo-cam because I'm suggesting the camera itself is schizophrenic.
camera is schizophrenic... i see. ok.


Such as....?
Boxed in unrealistic view, no body awareness in space, the constant violent spinning of that small window into the game around to see whats on the side or back.



You're acknowledging that my complaining about it spoiling immersion would be valid if the game was in third person all the way through.
Thus, you're acknowledging that third person is inherently less immersive than first person.
Thus, the rest of your argument here breaks down.
Not at all but, you trying to strawman what i say, actually breaks your arguments down even if we forget that laughable sentence about the camera up there.


TP is far more immersive to me then FP. I come from the different line of gaming. Namely true RPG games where top down isometric view is- be all end all - orgasmic experience.
Its an acquired taste dependant on personal sensibilities and preferences as much as FP preference.

Saying that one PoV is actually inherently more immersive then the other is frankly stupid and only points out that the one making such argument doesnt know whats he talking about or that he is unable to distinguish between personal and objective reality.

What i was saying up there is that complaints about TP are invalid since the game is still FP all the way.
It has nothing to do with immersion but with the fact that original games were FP and their fans rightfully expect the sequels to have the same features since they are accustomed to it and its one of the trademarks of the game.



It could be that the system they use won't be terrible - if EM would actually come out and give us details of it we'd know for sure, rather than having to guess, and I think the fact that they won't give us details is a bad sign. Thats nothing more then normal marketing procedure. They wont give you all the info at once since that would be stupid from marketing point of view.
Also they are still working on the game which release is somewhere next year.

Less paranoia, more thinking.


What we do know for sure though is that limb damage is out, and that's the big change that I'm bothered about in terms of the health system. We're just down to a single HP bar now with no affect on your performance. However they handle health regen, that part is a simplification.
I agree. Locational damage increases gameplay options and removing it is a mistake.




Why is it ridiculous to say so? It's two less options open to the player. That's simplification pretty much by definition.
Thats not simplification of the whole game and DX experience as you would like to present it in your paranoid rant.
What use is lock picking tools if every lock is electronic? What does it matter if you have a different tool to do the same job? Gameplay isnt lost.

Mulitools? You mean the magical gizmo that opens up any electrinic device or a lock? Why isnt the hacking aug you will get really a multitool in itself? Again, one ridiculous magical tool is replaced by something more fitting for the setting while you dont loose any gameplay it provided.


I said player skills are out, not that upgrading is out entirely. It's a pretty subtle difference and, of the things I listed, the one I'm least bothered about, but it's still there. IW still had aug upgrades.
The player skills are not out. They are called augmentations now. Augmentations are skills. What is not clear there?
Instead of skills youll be upgrading augs and that is much more fitting with the whole setting then having "magical" skills.
Do i need to repeat how much direct influence on the gameplay each aug and its upgrades have?
How they open up different possibilities and paths and options or give the player a hole new style of gameplay?



EM have said numerous times in interviews that third person is being used for takedowns / certain augs in order to show off Adam's "cool moves" - yes, that's their wording, not mine.
Yes, and there is nothing wrong with cool moves, especially in the games.
Your wording was "Hollywood cool" and that means something entirely else mister.



That's my concern - that they will become tiresome. Consider how often you hacked in DX1. Now consider the fact that, because multitools and lockpicks are out, we're going to be relying on hacking when we want to shut down all cameras, open all doors (except when we have a key) and so on, so hacking is definitely going to be more frequent. Now imagine having to play a minigame every time you do that - even if it's only 15 seconds or so, it's still going to be distracting.
You dont have to rely on hacking for each of those. Other options and paths are available. The only ones who will be bothered by possible tedium of minigames are those that go for hacking completely but to them it will be much easier then to other kinds of players.

However, as i said - i hate the minigames and i dont see any reason of why they should be forced into the games at all. Any games at all. They are a weak and often tiresome feature mostly used to circumvent skills in games that are supposed to be about skills in the first place (like modern "RPGs" such as god awful Oblivion or the like)



And those jets and turbo injectors are going to ruin my fuel efficiency. See my point? Besides, I don't see third person etc as adding new jets or whatever, I see them more as adding rudders or giant cardboard fins. I've yet to see anyone say why third person (etc) is actually a good thing, I've just seen people explain why they think it won't be a bad thing, and then from that make the logical leap that it must, therefore, be a good thing.
No i dont see your point at all and frankly your example is ridiculous.

/

Oh boy.... some of you FP-ers really live with a box around your head...
Third person is good because it replaces the inherent lacks of FP view in regards to normal realistic human senses.

It also enhances immersion for players who have such preferences and enhances the feeling you are playing a character in games that are based around that feature.

Plus it makes melee combat look way more interesting and increases tactical approaches because you can actually see where your character is in the space and where the enemies are and act and plan accordingly.



What made IW a failure was a large number of small factors, rather than any one single terrible factor, and that's what I'm worried will happen to DXHR. None of the changes are unbearable in themself - though I maintain that the "first person with frequent switches to third person camera" (happy now?) is a larger and more detrimental change than any IW made - but added together, they will probably create an experience that's lacking.
That doesnt make any sense apart from being your personal preference and as such its invalid and slightly funny argument i cant take seriously at all.

IOOI
13th Jun 2010, 17:53
The confirmed existence of some kind of med-packs seems to go along with this theory.


What the **** is this!? :confused::confused::confused:
Weren't medpacks left behind because of backtracking?
Can anyone explain or point me out to a source?

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 17:54
There wouldn't be the slightest problem if TP was optional, if there was also FP cover (I don't know how many times this was repeated).
I suggested making TP optional myself.
I would prefer if i could play the whole game in TP myself.

The problem is that there is no leaning so if you force FP when your in cover you would have no way of seeing the environment. Still i wouldnt mind if they make it an option at all.



And you know why this is frustating? Because while your climbing a box you have to watch an animation of it and you have no control and you can't dodge/hide quickly from a raid of bullets coming from behind.
Ill consider this when i hear that such feature exists from the devs.
If they make it in such a way its clearly a mistake.

Kodaemon
13th Jun 2010, 18:07
Boxed in unrealistic view

Sure, out-of-body experiences are more realistic.


the constant violent spinning of that small window into the game around to see whats on the side or back.

Yeah, I hate not having 360 vision irl too.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 18:12
Yes they are. Because the apparent increased field of view replaces what FP takes away.

btw read this :

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1436.0.html

IOOI
medpacks have been mentioned in some of the latest previews and interviews as a help for those players who dont want to wait for the health regen to kick in - as they said.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
13th Jun 2010, 18:16
IOOI
medpacks have been mentioned in some of the latest previews and interviews as a help for those players who dont want to wait for the health regen to kick in - as they said.

Was that actually medpacks or a kind of aug? I'm confused now. :nut:
Can you add original interview quote in here, it will help. Thank you.

Righto
13th Jun 2010, 18:21
Consider how often you hacked in DX1. Now consider the fact that, because multitools and lockpicks are out, we're going to be relying on hacking when we want to shut down all cameras, open all doors (except when we have a key) and so on, so hacking is definitely going to be more frequent. Now imagine having to play a minigame every time you do that - even if it's only 15 seconds or so, it's still going to be distracting.

I can see some loss, some gain to removing multi tools for the mini-game approach.

The gain: More choice.
Hacking won't be item based, which means you'll always have that path open to you when it's available (assuming you've made the right upgrades). No more not being able to hack into something useful because earlier on you spent too many multi tools on something that turned out to be useless, even though you couldn't have known it was useless without hacking it.

The loss: Less consequence.
If you wanted to hack something in DX without any indication of whether you'd get something useful out of it (computers, atms), then that was a risk you had to be willing to take, so it was a bummer if you got nothing, but genuinely rewarding when the risk payed off.
[EDIT] Oh wait, there's risk/reward built into the minigame, I guess the loss is minimal then.

This says nothing of the minigame itself of course, which may or may not stink.

Haven't seen it confirmed that lockpicking is out (though I've yet to read the new interview, it's "temporarily unavailable"), have you got a link? Dumb side note about lockpicking: I only just realized how logically daft it is that all the lockpicks in DX are one use only. Those things must be made of plastic.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 18:22
Im afraid it might be a part of PC gamer interviews so untill they reboot i cant find it.
Ill take a look see if its in any of the others.


Yeah, I hate not having 360 vision irl too.
Do you have anything cheaper as a comeback?

In rl you dont have to turn your head completely around to see what was behind you, merely enough for peripheral vision to catch it.
You have sound and space awareness and you can feel the movement of air on your skin sometimes, not to mention just feel it outright.

Oh please let me know we have surround sound in the games today, PLEASE - its really is the same thing.

Tecman
13th Jun 2010, 18:26
What the **** is this!? :confused::confused::confused:
Weren't medpacks left behind because of backtracking?
Can anyone explain or point me out to a source?

From the IGN preview ( http://pc.ign.com/articles/109/1096065p1.html ):

A regenerating health system is in place, meaning Jensen never has to worry about running low on supplies, but rather must find a safe spot for a few seconds to recover. That being said, the regeneration isn't immediate. Eidos Montreal is still including recovery items for players who don't have time to wait for the regen to kick in as well as ways to boost overall health reserves.

Pinky_Powers
13th Jun 2010, 18:33
On the subject of First-Person Perspective faults:

For a lot of people, 1st-person shooters (or even exploration games) are dizzying and uncomfortable. Some will get sick. My sister can't even watch without getting a murderous headache. Even the suggestion that she try a game in that perspective will only frustrate her.

I've suffered from this every now and again myself. But when I feel those bastard affects I just quite a for a while and do something else.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 18:35
Thanks tecman, i just found it myself. So - recovery items it is.

Kodaemon
13th Jun 2010, 18:36
In rl you dont have to turn your head completely around to see what was behind you, merely enough for peripheral vision to catch it.

Kind of like I move my mouse slightly to the left or right to see what's behind me.


You have sound and space awareness and you can feel the movement of air on your skin sometimes, not to mention just feel it outright.

You see, I kind of understand you. I couldn't play Mirror's Edge because the game was so focused on body movement that first person was to confining for me. But DX or Thief? Nah, Doin' just fine. Also: your Iron Tower link has some straight up BS in it. Sure, lots of FPS games nowadays use cramped FOV, but there's nothing stopping you from using, say, 90 degrees rather than the claimed 45. Quake 1 had 90 degrees, Half Life 2 can be smoothly adjusted to 90 degrees via the options menu. Gives wider vision and doesn't feel "unnatural" at all.

IOOI
13th Jun 2010, 18:36
Ill consider this when i hear that such feature exists from the devs.
If they make it in such a way its clearly a mistake.

Takedown animations and kills can't be interrupted, that means that TP view that should be used in your advantage won't do any good here if you're attacked.

Ilves
13th Jun 2010, 18:42
Don't know if it is either accurate or relevant, but the latest 4Players article mentions the camera going into "over the shoulder" view during certain actions. Is is just me or is there really a perceivable distinction between regular 3rd person view and OTS view? Like the game character being more fixed in the screen in an OTS situation? I don't know, the phrase caught my eye. Call me a visual nitpicker, but I always find OTS view particularly uncinematic.

68_pie
13th Jun 2010, 18:47
I liked OTS for The Witcher but again it's just going to depend upon the game

Kodaemon
13th Jun 2010, 18:50
Ots is sort of a middle ground between fpp and tpp these days. Supposed to show the character, but play more like fps. As far as "cinematicness" goes, when done well, it gives a sort of documentary feel - you know, like there's a guy with a camera just following your character from two meters away.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 18:54
Keep trying Kodeamon, keep trying...

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 18:55
Takedown animations and kills can't be interrupted, that means that TP view that should be used in your advantage won't do any good here if you're attacked.
I thought we were talking about climbing boxes or containers.
Those couldnt be interrupted even if your in FP so that makes no difference. Youll just have to plan your attacks better.

Kodaemon
13th Jun 2010, 19:26
Keep trying Kodeamon, keep trying...

Keep trying what?

Jerion
13th Jun 2010, 19:43
The reason I don't have a problem with takedowns, is that if they move quickly and slip back into first person rapidly enough, you don't have to worry about anyone stumbling upon you. Hell, in the first game you had to keep slapping your poor victim (who incidentally was a father of three) with a lightsaber until he fell over. This way at least it looks cool and is pretty much guaranteed to work. The "immersion" thing is the only potential drawback here, but we can't really debate that until we see it in action.

Ashpolt
13th Jun 2010, 19:58
For the sakes of brevity, I'm only going to respond to points that can't easily be countered with "subjective!", ad-hominem or points where we obviously agree.


Boxed in unrealistic view, no body awareness in space, the constant violent spinning of that small window into the game around to see whats on the side or back.

:lol: I'm not one to defend something in games on the basis of realism - this is a game, not real life - but how exactly is first person unrealistic? In case you hadn't noticed, real life is lived in first person. And body awareness can be done in first person games - look at Mirror's Edge for a good example - and I would be absolutely happy for them to put that into DXHR. As for constant violent spinning of the view - man, what the hell kind of games do you play? :scratch:


What i was saying up there is that complaints about TP are invalid since the game is still FP all the way.

The game isn't FP all the way though. Even if TP was only being used for cover, it'd still get used a lot - have you played Rainbow Six: Vegas? You spent a lot of that game in third person. Add in takedowns, augs and ladders, and you've got even more.


It has nothing to do with immersion but with the fact that original games were FP and their fans rightfully expect the sequels to have the same features since they are accustomed to it and its one of the trademarks of the game.

I don't agree that it has nothing to do with immersion, but I do agree with the rest of your point, and that is indeed one of the points I was making with my car example. First person is just part of what made the Deus Ex experience.


Thats nothing more then normal marketing procedure. They wont give you all the info at once since that would be stupid from marketing point of view.

It's normal marketing procedure, sure, but being as there has been so much concern about regenerating health from the fans for the past 2 years (I know it doesn't seem like it on here now, but you should've been here last year or the year before) good marketing procedure at this point would be to put those concerns to rest by saying "here's how it works, and here's why it won't suck."


Also they are still working on the game which release is somewhere next year.

We're pretty close to release. These kind of features are going to have been decided upon now.


What use is lock picking tools if every lock is electronic? What does it matter if you have a different tool to do the same job? Gameplay isnt lost.

But they're only making every lock electronic to fit in with the fact that they don't have lockpicks. Also, lockpicks didn't do exactly the same job as hacking in DX1, they allowed you (if you had the correct resources) to open a door then and there without having to go to one part of the level, hack a terminal, and than come back to that door. Also, as I've said elsewhere, the fact that there are no more lockpicks / multitools means that all the top secret bases and hidden headquarters we visit are going to have gaping security flaws where the terminal used to access important areas is, in itself, not in a secured location.


The player skills are not out. They are called augmentations now. Augmentations are skills. What is not clear there?
Instead of skills youll be upgrading augs and that is much more fitting with the whole setting then having "magical" skills.

Player skills aren't "magical", they simply represent you getting better at things over time. Are you perfect at everything the first time you try it? I don't think so. OK, with the weapon skills in DX they went overboard, and JC was barely able to handle a weapon without the right XP poured into it, but that's just that DX handled it badly (or not - it is part RPG, after all) rather than that the system itself is flawed. It's something that (arguably) needed refinement, not outright scrapping.

And player skills and augs aren't the same things - DX1 had both, and they both served different purposes. Even if they could both be rolled into one system - which is not entirely what DXHR is doing, though it does it in some instances - that's still aiming for "lesser granularity", which was the design philosophy behind Invisible War and is, by Warren Spector and Harvey Smith's own admission, part of what messed up that game. If you haven't watched the Invisible War postmortem, I'd recommend it - it's on Youtube, and very eye-opening.


Yes, and there is nothing wrong with cool moves, especially in the games.
Your wording was "Hollywood cool" and that means something entirely else mister.

"Hollywood cool" to me means excessive violence, improbable and inefficient kills (eviscerating your opponents rather than just cutting their throat quickly or whatever) and cheesy one liners. If there's some "official" definition I'm not aware of, please enlighten me. But until then, DXHR seems to represent all of those things: nearly all of the 3rd party previews have mentioned how much more violent it is than DX, the "cool moves" are going to be inefficient by definition (after all, the hidden blades in themselves are over the top - much better to simply have hidden daggers or a silenced pistol) and as for cheesy one liners - "I'll take you to hell!" OK, the last one may just be the trailer, I'll grant you that, but we'll see. My point is, Deus Ex was, to me, about being quiet, clean, efficient, getting the job done and getting out of there, not about being Rambo - even if you went all-out action, you still went for clean kills.


You dont have to rely on hacking for each of those. Other options and paths are available. The only ones who will be bothered by possible tedium of minigames are those that go for hacking completely but to them it will be much easier then to other kinds of players.

You don't have to rely on hacking for those in the sense that you don't have to do them at all, but I've not heard of any other way to shut down cameras or open locked doors (I assume we'll be able to find keys for the latter, but part of the beauty of DX1 was that it provided you multiple ways of doing things, not just one.)


That doesnt make any sense apart from being your personal preference and as such its invalid and slightly funny argument i cant take seriously at all.

How exactly does that not make any sense? Please explain. It made perfect sense to me.

Just out of interest: have you played both Deus Ex and Invisible War? I'm not going to say your point is invalid if you haven't, I'm just curious, because a lot of what you are saying to defend DXHR can also be applied to Invisible War, and yet that was very badly received by the fans.

beastosterone
13th Jun 2010, 20:33
Nice post Ashpolt. As usual.

IOOI
13th Jun 2010, 20:35
I thought we were talking about climbing boxes or containers.
Those couldnt be interrupted even if your in FP so that makes no difference. Youll just have to plan your attacks better.

Can't animations be counteracted with another animation? :scratch:

In a broader sense many quirks could be fixed, and in the case of killing/takedowns animations, either by letting you push the NPC and making a run for it or by lettting you hold the NPC as a shield. Though I have to admit I don't know how much time killing/takedown animations will take. I'm expecting (but I don't know) that some augmented NPC's to be harder and take more time to kill, so the following idea could work (in theory):

For instance if we used a live NPC as a shield and positioned the PC effectively, other enemy NPCs could flank us. They would have the option to fire back if we started to fire at them or if their patience runs up (and in this way killing the NPC shield). Though, before that, you could just let off/push the NPC shield and make a run for it. That means if you triggered a killing animation you'd still have the option to 'cancel' it with another animation without necessarily killing the opponent.

You'd still be able to see the surroundings in FP (or TP) if, for instance, you had control over the PC's head - you'd need to press a button (action button for instance) like it's usually done when switching to "mouse look".

This the idea anyway. I didn't test it.

3rdmillhouse
13th Jun 2010, 20:51
Can't animations be counteracted with another animation? :scratch:

It's possible, GTA4 has the most clear examples of animations being counteracted with other animations.

Hiver
13th Jun 2010, 22:13
:lol: I'm not one to defend something in games on the basis of realism - this is a game, not real life - but how exactly is first person unrealistic? In case you hadn't noticed, real life is lived in first person. And body awareness can be done in first person games - look at Mirror's Edge for a good example - and I would be absolutely happy for them to put that into DXHR. As for constant violent spinning of the view - man, what the hell kind of games do you play? :scratch:

Thats really funny. I just adore the argument that FP is realistic. Its hillarious.

Real life isnt lived in First person camera - if you hadnt noticed.
You "see" reality around yourself through all of your senses working together and contemplating each other.
Senses of your whole body.

Thats whats completely lacking in FP and that TP covers to some degree in the limited medium of "seeing things on the screen".

Yes im aware the body can be made visible since ive played Riddick and i prefer if its made so since it helps with one of the serious lacks of FP.


The game isn't FP all the way though. Even if TP was only being used for cover, it'd still get used a lot - have you played Rainbow Six: Vegas? You spent a lot of that game in third person. Add in takedowns, augs and ladders, and you've got even more.
The game is First Person with some small TP additions that last only a fraction of time. The longest being staying in cover.





I don't agree that it has nothing to do with immersion, but I do agree with the rest of your point, and that is indeed one of the points I was making with my car example. First person is just part of what made the Deus Ex experience.
Ive already said what i think of people that think that the style of PoV has anything inherent to do with immersion.



It's normal marketing procedure, sure, but being as there has been so much concern about regenerating health from the fans for the past 2 years (I know it doesn't seem like it on here now, but you should've been here last year or the year before) good marketing procedure at this point would be to put those concerns to rest by saying "here's how it works, and here's why it won't suck."
That would be very nice and useful of them.
Frankly i thought devs are communicating with fans here and its one of the bigger disappointments so far for me.



We're pretty close to release. These kind of features are going to have been decided upon now.
One year is a lot and some alterations can still be made.



But they're only making every lock electronic to fit in with the fact that they don't have lockpicks. Also, lockpicks didn't do exactly the same job as hacking in DX1, they allowed you (if you had the correct resources) to open a door then and there without having to go to one part of the level, hack a terminal, and than come back to that door. Also, as I've said elsewhere, the fact that there are no more lockpicks / multitools means that all the top secret bases and hidden headquarters we visit are going to have gaping security flaws where the terminal used to access important areas is, in itself, not in a secured location.
No, it only means that each lock on any door is electronic instead of mechanical.
Why do you think those would be opened by some remote terminal?

Youll be hacking and opening locks on those doors and accesing those terminals directly not going for some remote one to open them.

wtf?


Player skills aren't "magical", they simply represent you getting better at things over time. Are you perfect at everything the first time you try it? I don't think so. OK, with the weapon skills in DX they went overboard, and JC was barely able to handle a weapon without the right XP poured into it, but that's just that DX handled it badly (or not - it is part RPG, after all) rather than that the system itself is flawed. It's something that (arguably) needed refinement, not outright scrapping.
There is no need for skills in a DX setting.
Augs override all of possible ones.

There were 25 skills and augs in DX and now you have 50 augs and upgrades.
That btw make much more sense than those in DX.



And player skills and augs aren't the same things - DX1 had both, and they both served different purposes. Even if they could both be rolled into one system - which is not entirely what DXHR is doing, though it does it in some instances - that's still aiming for "lesser granularity", which was the design philosophy behind Invisible War and is, by Warren Spector and Harvey Smith's own admission, part of what messed up that game. If you haven't watched the Invisible War postmortem, I'd recommend it - it's on Youtube, and very eye-opening.

Im not interested in your personal interpretation on the motives of such fusion. im only interested in how it works and what it brings to gameplay.

Your just hang up on old duality and cant see past semantics.

For all intents and purposes augs are the skills now.


"Hollywood cool" to me means excessive violence, improbable and inefficient kills (eviscerating your opponents rather than just cutting their throat quickly or whatever) and cheesy one liners. If there's some "official" definition I'm not aware of, please enlighten me. But until then, DXHR seems to represent all of those things: nearly all of the 3rd party previews have mentioned how much more violent it is than DX, the "cool moves" are going to be inefficient by definition (after all, the hidden blades in themselves are over the top - much better to simply have hidden daggers or a silenced pistol) and as for cheesy one liners - "I'll take you to hell!" OK, the last one may just be the trailer, I'll grant you that, but we'll see. My point is, Deus Ex was, to me, about being quiet, clean, efficient, getting the job done and getting out of there, not about being Rambo - even if you went all-out action, you still went for clean kills.
If i had the augmented arms you can bet there would be blades in them.
There is a difference between truly cool and cheap and so far the augs DXHR presented seem to be swaying on the former side of that fence.

Clean efficient? like hitting someone with light saber repeatedly over the head while he runs around or guards yelling and shooting at you after you hit them with the crosbow?

Right.



You don't have to rely on hacking for those in the sense that you don't have to do them at all, but I've not heard of any other way to shut down cameras or open locked doors (I assume we'll be able to find keys for the latter, but part of the beauty of DX1 was that it provided you multiple ways of doing things, not just one.)
Find the key, get the code from an NPC, find another way in seems like more ways then one to me.



How exactly does that not make any sense? Please explain. It made perfect sense to me.
Sadly, yes.



Just out of interest: have you played both Deus Ex and Invisible War? I'm not going to say your point is invalid if you haven't, I'm just curious, because a lot of what you are saying to defend DXHR can also be applied to Invisible War, and yet that was very badly received by the fans.
Im not defending HR at all. Im just saying your arguments are overblown paranoia and inability to distinguish between personal, subjective and objective reality which you demonstrate more then readily over and over again.
Im just seeing specific features on one side that look like they could be awesome in gameplay and unreasonable butthurt arguments on the other even if the game is FP.

It all comes down to you disliking TP features more then anything and then grabbing onto any small thing you can to show how it isnt a DX game or a good game at all.
And saying: "trust me - it will all be bad."
Buddy - i just dont care for that kind of talk.

If it really turns out bad ill be among the first to call it crap.

Instead you should be counting yourself lucky it isnt turned into some horrible action shooter but remains true to what really made DeusX great game.

No, i havent played it - in the end. I tried but couldnt get past that awful FP shooter view and confusing beginning and totally uninteresting and horribly designed characters and environments at the start. It just didnt catch me with anything and i hate sneaking in FP anyway.

I was too busy enjoying amazing games like Fallout or Planescape Torment to bother, really.

I might as well try it again these days.

68_pie
13th Jun 2010, 23:24
I would find it very strange for every single lock to be electronic. Also, the term hack seems strange to me to apply to a lock. One would think that you would hack a computer. Unless they have the computer controlling the door right next to the door. I can see Ash's point that it is one less option: lockpicking versus hacking.

I count 11 skills and 21 augs in DX.

Where did you get the figure of 50 augs for DXHR?

objectively, can one judge whether DXHR is going to be a good Deus Ex game if they havent played Deus Ex?

Irate_Iguana
13th Jun 2010, 23:26
Where did you get the figure of 50 augs for DXHR?

Augs plus the upgrade paths for those augs combine to a total of 50 according to several interviews. The 4Players one mentions it for example.

68_pie
13th Jun 2010, 23:37
ah that makes more sense than 50 individual augs, as i had thought from Hiver's post - i thought he meant 50 augs and upgrades for each of those.

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 00:04
No, i meant all together and presumed most people have read the previews.

As to judging the game a real DX game that will be done by true fans in the end.
Though those that base their arguments on some TP features making it bad just by being there will get ignored or ridiculed.

I think i can fairly tell what are the best features of the game and what made it special by reading fan opinions of it and i limit myself to judging how some particular feature will affect the desired gameplay so far.

If my opinion matters at all beyond exchanging views with other posters.
I dont think it does.


I would find it very strange for every single lock to be electronic. Also, the term hack seems strange to me to apply to a lock. One would think that you would hack a computer. Unless they have the computer controlling the door right next to the door.
I would not - in that kind of a setting.
The term is not strange if the lock is electronic.

Why would they have a whole computer controlling the door - standing next to the door?
In the future. With advanced technology available.

Maybe, in some cases there is a computer controlling locks on several doors for some reason but it would be very strange if that was forced throughout the whole game.

Its certainly a minor point either way. Reducing number of skills just for the hell of it or "streamlining" and making games "more accessible" to mass market is bad. It stupid but unfortunately unavoidable with publishers being as they are today.

Designing the game so every skill or, augmentation in this case, has a clear effect and contributes to gameplay in a very visible way is not.
Time will tell which one they are doing.

Hertzila
14th Jun 2010, 00:05
Thats really funny. I just adore the argument that FP is realistic. Its hillarious.

Real life isnt lived in First person camera - if you hadnt noticed.
You "see" reality around yourself through all of your senses working together and contemplating each other.
Senses of your whole body.

Thats whats completely lacking in FP and that TP covers to some degree in the limited medium of "seeing things on the screen".

Yes im aware the body can be made visible since ive played Riddick and i prefer if its made so since it helps with one of the serious lacks of FP.


I don't know about you, but at least my life is primarily based on my vision, hearing and touch. Of these three vision and hearing can be simulated realistically, and touch is also appearing (Novint Falcon). Smell and taste don't appear but they aren't overly important to sense and manipulate the world, for a human in a video game at least.

None of these allow you to look behind you or over cover like a TP camera does.



The game is First Person with some small TP additions that last only a fraction of time. The longest being staying in cover.

You'll be staying in cover for likely a quite long in this kind of game. Not just fractions of a second.



No, it only means that each lock on any door is electronic instead of mechanical.
Why do you think those would be opened by some remote terminal?

Youll be hacking and opening locks on those doors and accesing those terminals directly not going for some remote one to open them.

wtf?

This would still mean that the locks would either feature a USB port or a wireless connection and a working, unsecure computer, how else would you be hacking the damn thing?
Hacking is not the same thing as bypassing.



There is no need for skills in a DX setting.
Augs override all of possible ones.

There were 25 skills and augs in DX and now you have 50 augs and upgrades.
That btw make much more sense than those in DX.

It depends on what they'll pick for skills. Things like lockpicking with an external lockpick make more sense as a real skill instead of as an aug.



If i had the augmented arms you can bet there would be blades in them.
There is a difference between truly cool and cheap and so far the augs DXHR presented seem to be swaying on the former side of that fence.

Clean efficient? like hitting someone with light saber repeatedly over the head while he runs around or guards yelling and shooting at you after you hit them with the crosbow?

Right.


As would I but that's beside the point. The question is would you use them to do clean kills or overkills? Would you cut their throat or hit them in the head or heart with it in perhaps less than a second or do an "epic and cool" multiple-second overkill, during which not only your target's friends but also the target itself could shoot you in the face?

Fun fact: "lightsaber" killed in one hit to the head, at least unless the enemy was a fellow augmented person. I'm fairly sure it killed in one hit even if it hits the torso.



Sadly, yes.

You don't respond "yes" when asked "how", do you? (Answer the question please.)



Im not defending HR at all. Im just saying your arguments are overblown paranoia and inability to distinguish between personal, subjective and objective reality which you demonstrate more then readily over and over again.
Im just seeing specific features on one side that look like they could be awesome in gameplay and unreasonable butthurt arguments on the other even if the game is FP.

It all comes down to you disliking TP features more then anything and then grabbing onto any small thing you can to show how it isnt a DX game or a good game at all.
And saying: "trust me - it will all be bad."
Buddy - i just dont care for that kind of talk.

If it really turns out bad ill be among the first to call it crap.


You are defending it, whether you think this as defending or not. We complain about the things we have heard about and you post counterarguments at our complains -> you defend the thing we are complaining about. Even if you were the first to switch sides when it's released.



Instead you should be counting yourself lucky it isnt turned into some horrible action shooter but remains true to what really made DeusX great game.


That's something certain people here are not so sure about.

EEDIT:



I think i can fairly tell what are the best features of the game and what made it special by reading fan opinions of it and i limit myself to judging how some particular feature will affect the desired gameplay so far.

Reading fan opinions isn't quite the same as playing and enjoying the game.


I would not - in that kind of a setting.
The term is not strange if the lock is electronic.

Why would they have a whole computer controlling the door - standing next to the door?
In the future. With advanced technology available.

Maybe, in some cases there is a computer controlling locks on several doors for some reason but it would be very strange if that was forced throughout the whole game.

Having an electronic locks everywhere would kinda make sense in the setting (though it will remove the lockpicking option and still make no sense why the poor people still have electronic locks) but having a hackable computer in every lock doesn't.


Its certainly a minor point either way. Reducing number of skills just for the hell of it or "streamlining" and making games "more accessible" to mass market is bad. It stupid but unfortunately unavoidable with publishers being as they are today.

This is something some of us are still pissed about.

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 00:25
I don't know about you, but at least my life is primarily based on my vision, hearing and touch. Of these three vision and hearing can be simulated realistically, and touch is also appearing (Novint Falcon). Smell and taste don't appear but they aren't overly important to sense and manipulate the world, for a human in a video game at least.

None of these allow you to look behind you or over cover like a TP camera does.
All your senses make you aware of your immediate surroundings all around you. Little less directly behind you visually of course but other senses and field of view compensate to some degree.
You have a very distinct feeling of your body in space.

FP gives you only a very narrow boxed field of view.
There is nothing realistic about it.

TP compensates somewhat for the lack of everything i described.

As i said so before. Either take my argument in its entirety or dont take it all when responding to it.




You'll be staying in cover for likely a quite long in this kind of game. Not just fractions of a second.
Doesnt bother me and it wont bother many of other players. Game is still primarily FP.



This would still mean that the locks would either feature a USB port or a wireless connection and a working, unsecure computer, how else would you be hacking the damn thing?
Hacking is not the same thing as bypassing.
Or the locks could just be electronic without any "computer" attached at all and you just hack them.
You think usb ports will still be in use in 2027? Funny.




It depends on what they'll pick for skills. Things like lockpicking with an external lockpick make more sense as a real skill instead as an aug.
Not if the locks are electronic. Anyway augs are skills which we enhance by investing exp points into.



As would I but that's beside the point. The question is would you use them to do clean kills or overkills? Would you cut their throat or hit them in the head or heart with it in perhaps less than a second or do an "epic and cool" multiple-second overkill, during which not only your target's friends but also the target itself could shoot you in the face?
I didnt see any epic multiple seconds overkills in the trailer. All kills done with blades were one strike clean kills.



Fun fact: "lightsaber" killed in one hit to the head, at least unless the enemy was a fellow augmented person. I'm fairly sure it killed in one hit even if it hits the torso.
I heard things about hitting people multiple times with it in order to kill them while they ran around.
Possibly it was some other weapon.
my point was that even in original game you didnt always perform clean fast kills.



You don't respond "yes" when asked "how", do you? (Answer the question please.)
I already did. If you cant understand it - not my problem.




You are defending it, whether you think this as defending or not. We complain about the things we have heard about and you post counterarguments at our complains -> you defend the thing we are complaining about. Even if you were the first to switch sides when it's released.
No im not defending it. Thats a moronic and pathetic thing to say.
There is no sides here. There is no "either your with us or against us" stupidity.

I dont agree with those arguments and i explain why and thats the whole of it.



That's something certain people here are not so sure about.
Personal feeling are not my problem. When we have some definite info or someone presents an actual argument instead of paranoid rants ill consider it and agree with it if its logical and true.


Reading fan opinions isn't quite the same as playing and enjoying the game.
Really? Who would have thought it? and i just said somewhere that i think it is.


This is something some of us are still pissed about.
Quite understandable.

FrankCSIS
14th Jun 2010, 00:35
TP compensates somewhat for the lack of everything i described.

Not really. The main problem with TP sneaking, and third person movement in general, is that you are never sure exactly where you are standing and what is your field of view. As such, especially around a corner, it's very difficult to know whether you are viewed by those you are sneaking on, as opposed to a FP view. This was somewhat ''solved'' by the wall-hugging gimmick, this system which assures you that so long as you are with your back against the wall no one from around the corner can see you.

Basic movements such as a pivot or simple walking\running are also problematic, because in third person you are always reacting to the movements your characters have done, whereas in FP you always know exactly where you are heading. It is very much less instinctive to control a puppet than it is to move your own entity. The only upside of TP are stunts, but I remain convinced full body awareness in FP would solve this issue.

The lack of smell and taste does not in any way influence your ability to know whether or not you are in danger. If anything, the only thing we're missing is whether or not the enemy is baking a delicious apple pie. Digital sound indicates where the steps are echoing from, and the field of view is exactly the one of a human being. They could and should work on developping better sound though, to enable us to make better use of our earing sense. The only problem with FP, which could easily be solved, is eye movements to a side or another without physically moving your body. A ''lean key'' for the eyes could solve this, at least when you are in a first person cover mode, where only the head is moving while the rest of the body remains against the wall. Mouse movement usually covers this, however, so I really don't see much of a problem.

Ashpolt
14th Jun 2010, 00:49
In an effort to reduce the length of the quote train again, I'll only respond to points where you're not agreeing with me, aren't pointless ad-hominem and where I haven't covered them before in this thread:


No, it only means that each lock on any door is electronic instead of mechanical.
Why do you think those would be opened by some remote terminal?

Because that's what hacking means - accessing computers. I hadn't considered that there might be mini-computers besides locked doors to open them, and if so, that's not terrible - though it will increase the amount of time you spend playing the hacking minigame even further.


There is no need for skills in a DX setting.
Augs override all of possible ones.

As it's a word you're so fond of using: subjective. I personally felt the skills added an extra layer to Deus Ex that wrapping them into augs doesn't provide.


Clean efficient? like hitting someone with light saber repeatedly over the head while he runs around or guards yelling and shooting at you after you hit them with the crosbow?

Again, this is a weakness of the exact way Deus Ex worked, not with the idea behind it. I'll admit those moments are stupid (though as Hertzilla pointed out, I'm pretty sure the dragon's tooth was a one hit kill) but generally in Deus Ex you were encouraged to do things quickly and efficiently - not chop people up with dual arm blades.


No, i havent played it - in the end. I tried but couldnt get past that awful FP shooter view and confusing beginning and totally uninteresting and horribly designed characters and environments at the start. It just didnt catch me with anything and i hate sneaking in FP anyway.

Just to confirm - do you mean you haven't played DX1, haven't played IW, or haven't played either? Again, I'm not saying it'll make your argument any less valid, but if you haven't played / haven't played much of either, it'll definitely explain where you're coming from to a degree.

Wow....that was pretty brief. Good.

MechBFP
14th Jun 2010, 00:52
I personally felt the skills added an extra layer to Deus Ex that wrapping them into augs doesn't provide.


And you know this how?

hem dazon 90
14th Jun 2010, 00:53
Its his personal opinion

FrankCSIS
14th Jun 2010, 00:56
And you know this how?

Bioshock, most likely.

neoWilks
14th Jun 2010, 01:06
My internet locked up for a few minutes so it looks like I'm a little behind in the conversation. But I typed all this up, so I'm gonna post it, 'kay? :)


Thats really funny. I just adore the argument that FP is realistic. Its hillarious.

Real life isnt lived in First person camera - if you hadnt noticed.
You "see" reality around yourself through all of your senses working together and contemplating each other.
Senses of your whole body.

Thats whats completely lacking in FP and that TP covers to some degree in the limited medium of "seeing things on the screen".

Yes im aware the body can be made visible since ive played Riddick and i prefer if its made so since it helps with one of the serious lacks of FP.

The game is First Person with some small TP additions that last only a fraction of time. The longest being staying in cover.

I'm not going to go into this so much because I don't see any meaningful difference in immersion between the two perspectives.

However, this is a Deus Ex game, and as such, any departure from a first-person perspective seems arbitrary. How does the switch to a first-person/third-person perspective enhance the Deus Ex experience? Certainly in some games it can work. Riddick uses a similar system, from the sound of things. I've not played it myself, but I've heard nothing but good things.

But still, we are talking Deus Ex. And if the third person perspective does not offer a notably valuable improvement to that Deus Ex experience, than what use is this departure from a purely first-person experience offered in the past? It would be like a Half-life game switching to a third person perspective whenever you clobbered someone with a crowbar. Just... why?


Frankly i thought devs are communicating with fans here and its one of the bigger disappointments so far for me.

I'm not 100 percent sure I'm parsing this correctly. You'd prefer less developer-fan interaction or more?


No, it only means that each lock on any door is electronic instead of mechanical.
Why do you think those would be opened by some remote terminal?

Youll be hacking and opening locks on those doors and accesing those terminals directly not going for some remote one to open them.

wtf?

For one, contextually it doesn't make sense. Everything is electronic around 2027 , flash forward twenty some years, and it's all mechanical and electronic. It's indicative of a mild lack of concern for the setting.

Beyond that, it is simply another option that has been removed. Period. If Deus Ex lets you pick a door, override a keypad, unlock the door from a remote terminal/security station, or blow it the **** up (can you still do this in HR, I haven't heard anything?), and the DEHR only lets you do two or three of those, you are more limited in DEHR.

You can argue that it's unnecessary. I disagree, but objectively there are fewer avenues of attack. Granted, dropping the skill system changes things somewhat in this regard, but I think that was a bad idea, too.


There is no need for skills in a DX setting.
Augs override all of possible ones.

There were 25 skills and augs in DX and now you have 50 augs and upgrades.
That btw make much more sense than those in DX.

Yes, some of the skills in the original Deus Ex were clumsy, but axing the whole system is not the answer. The only reason Augmentations override them is because they dropped the skills and are forced to compensate for that by creating new augmentations or broadening the scope of old ones. It's at the point where augmentations don't really seem to make sense in the context of the Deus Ex series.


Im not interested in your personal interpretation on the motives of such fusion. im only interested in how it works and what it brings to gameplay.

Your just hang up on old duality and cant see past semantics.

For all intents and purposes augs are the skills now.

But that's total bull****. And for someone who's stated old school isometic CRPGs are their bread and butter, it's a bit surprising. An augmentation is a piece of equipment. Equipment physically attached to your body, but equipment nonetheless. With this kind of logic we might go even further: "Skills and Augs are gone. For all intents and purposes guns are the skills now. With the experience you gain from finding hidden rooms and unlocking doors, you upgrade your guns to improve recoild and reload."


If i had the augmented arms you can bet there would be blades in them.
There is a difference between truly cool and cheap and so far the augs DXHR presented seem to be swaying on the former side of that fence.

It's less to me about the cool-factor or the cheap-factor and more about what makes sense in the world of Deus Ex. Everything I hear about new augmentations just seems so obnoxious.


Clean efficient? like hitting someone with light saber repeatedly over the head while he runs around or guards yelling and shooting at you after you hit them with the crosbow?

Right.

More to do with minor issues in the skill system. My maxed out melee character would end groups of enemies in seconds. If you run in without any skill in the weapon you are using, it's going to be a mess. That's why Deus Ex emphasized thoughtful approaches, avoidance, hit and run tactics (pop a guy or two with the crosbow and return to your hiding place til they are conked out).


Find the key, get the code from an NPC, find another way in seems like more ways then one to me.

And yet, not as many as there were available in the original.


Im not defending HR at all. Im just saying your arguments are overblown paranoia and inability to distinguish between personal, subjective and objective reality which you demonstrate more then readily over and over again.
Im just seeing specific features on one side that look like they could be awesome in gameplay and unreasonable butthurt arguments on the other even if the game is FP.

Of course they are personal, subjective arguments. They can't not be. Yours are too. If we were to boil this down to completely objective arguments, we would be saying nothing. We'd be retyping the frequently asked questions. We can, though, objectively say what the original Deus Ex did and what DEHR is doing. And if something cannot be defended keeping in mind the goals the original Deus Ex attempted to achieve, then I t don't think it's unfair to say that a particular mechanic in DEHR is not keeping in spirit with the original game. Does that mean the entire Deus Ex experience is ruined? Perhaps, perhaps not.


I was too busy enjoying amazing games like Fallout or Planescape Torment to bother, really.

Can I ask how you felt about Fallout 3's gameplay and perspective changes?

MechBFP
14th Jun 2010, 01:15
Its his personal opinion

Odd, he said it like it was a fact.:scratch:

Ubersuntzu
14th Jun 2010, 01:52
My internet locked up for a few minutes so it looks like I'm a little behind in the conversation. But I typed all this up, so I'm gonna post it, 'kay? :)


I'm not going to go into this so much because I don't see any meaningful difference in immersion between the two perspectives.

However, this is a Deus Ex game, and as such, any departure from a first-person perspective seems arbitrary. How does the switch to a first-person/third-person perspective enhance the Deus Ex experience? Certainly in some games it can work. Riddick uses a similar system, from the sound of things. I've not played it myself, but I've heard nothing but good things.

But still, we are talking Deus Ex. And if the third person perspective does not offer a notably valuable improvement to that Deus Ex experience, than what use is this departure from a purely first-person experience offered in the past? It would be like a Half-life game switching to a third person perspective whenever you clobbered someone with a crowbar. Just... why?

You are gaining something. You're gaining spacial awareness, which is important in melee combat. The stabs and grabs would have to be needlessly simplified if done in a first person view.

Likewise, cover and ladder climbing are both situations where simulating small movements of the neck and peeking are hard to simulate from a first person view. Instead it ends up feeling like you're rotating and moving your entire "body," because you ARE. Third person avoids making such situations awkward.



For one, contextually it doesn't make sense. Everything is electronic around 2027 , flash forward twenty some years, and it's all mechanical and electronic. It's indicative of a mild lack of concern for the setting.

They already commented on that. They weren't going to keep everything too low tech because a lot of the technology used in Deus Ex is already old by our standards, much less the time period its supposed to take place in. It's a bit of a retcon, but it doesn't really effect canon so I'm not bothered by it.


Beyond that, it is simply another option that has been removed. Period. If Deus Ex lets you pick a door, override a keypad, unlock the door from a remote terminal/security station, or blow it the **** up (can you still do this in HR, I haven't heard anything?), and the DEHR only lets you do two or three of those, you are more limited in DEHR.

You can argue that it's unnecessary. I disagree, but objectively there are fewer avenues of attack. Granted, dropping the skill system changes things somewhat in this regard, but I think that was a bad idea, too.

No options have been removed. Unlocking a door with a lockpick or an electronic lockpick functions exactly the same way. Using two items to accomplish the same task does not count as an alternative option. Nothing has been lost. FFS, I can't believe we're having this argument all over again after IW.


Yes, some of the skills in the original Deus Ex were clumsy, but axing the whole system is not the answer. The only reason Augmentations override them is because they dropped the skills and are forced to compensate for that by creating new augmentations or broadening the scope of old ones. It's at the point where augmentations don't really seem to make sense in the context of the Deus Ex series.

The only skill that has been replaced by an aug is hacking, which is just fine with me. Augs have multiple branches in this game, so if anything we could end up with some more advanced than the original, not less. The vast majority of skills in the first game were all weapon skills that I would expect someone with as much training as Adam/JC/Alex to already have to begin with. Playing as a black ops commando who can't use a gun is ridiculous and if you're going to have a skill tree it should give you access to skills that go BEYOND what is reasonably expected by default. The DX skill tree started out totally gimped and made you play through half the game before JC was at least competent in a firefight. There's no good reason to include the same mistake a second time.



It's less to me about the cool-factor or the cheap-factor and more about what makes sense in the world of Deus Ex. Everything I hear about new augmentations just seems so obnoxious.

Elaborate. I'm not seeing anything about the new augmentations that breaks from what we know about the DX universe.

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 02:02
Not really. The main problem with TP sneaking, and third person movement in general, is that you are never sure exactly where you are standing and what is your field of view.

:scratch:
the rest of what you said either doesnt make any sense to me or is just your personal preference.

-edit-
ubersuntzu told you what i would have if i had the patience.



Because that's what hacking means - accessing computers. I hadn't considered that there might be mini-computers besides locked doors to open them, and if so, that's not terrible - though it will increase the amount of time you spend playing the hacking minigame even further.
Cant the lock just be an electronic lock without any sort of "whole computer" on the side or in it with appropriately advanced electronic systems in it that the term hacking could still apply?



As it's a word you're so fond of using: subjective. I personally felt the skills added an extra layer to Deus Ex that wrapping them into augs doesn't provide.
What would those be?


Again, this is a weakness of the exact way Deus Ex worked, not with the idea behind it. I'll admit those moments are stupid (though as Hertzilla pointed out, I'm pretty sure the dragon's tooth was a one hit kill) but generally in Deus Ex you were encouraged to do things quickly and efficiently - not chop people up with dual arm blades.
I didnt see any chopping with blades. Only efficient one strike kills.


Just to confirm - do you mean you haven't played DX1, haven't played IW, or haven't played either? Again, I'm not saying it'll make your argument any less valid, but if you haven't played / haven't played much of either, it'll definitely explain where you're coming from to a degree.
Naturally i didnt play IW if i didnt play DX, that would be an abomination. ;)
So no, im not some IW maniac.



My internet locked up for a few minutes so it looks like I'm a little behind in the conversation. But I typed all this up, so I'm gonna post it, 'kay? :)
Kay!:nut:



I'm not going to go into this so much because I don't see any meaningful difference in immersion between the two perspectives.

However, this is a Deus Ex game, and as such, any departure from a first-person perspective seems arbitrary. How does the switch to a first-person/third-person perspective enhance the Deus Ex experience? Certainly in some games it can work. Riddick uses a similar system, from the sound of things. I've not played it myself, but I've heard nothing but good things.

But still, we are talking Deus Ex. And if the third person perspective does not offer a notably valuable improvement to that Deus Ex experience, than what use is this departure from a purely first-person experience offered in the past? It would be like a Half-life game switching to a third person perspective whenever you clobbered someone with a crowbar. Just... why?
Why not? Unless some sinsiter motives and a conspiracy are really behind it i can only see the positives of such a feature.


I'm not 100 percent sure I'm parsing this correctly. You'd prefer less developer-fan interaction or more?
How can there be less then none? More of course since it seems they do not comunicate at all and i read an interview where one of them is bragging about forums and how they pay attention to the fans.
that was the reason i joined here at first since i approve and like such way of doing business.

What bull**** and flat out lie.



For one, contextually it doesn't make sense. Everything is electronic around 2027 , flash forward twenty some years, and it's all mechanical and electronic. It's indicative of a mild lack of concern for the setting.
The augs arent really mechanical. They are not moved or operated by small wheels, pulleys and gears inside them or fueled by steam.

Its just a lack of proper explanation on their part.



Beyond that, it is simply another option that has been removed. Period. If Deus Ex lets you pick a door, override a keypad, unlock the door from a remote terminal/security station, or blow it the **** up (can you still do this in HR, I haven't heard anything?), and the DEHR only lets you do two or three of those, you are more limited in DEHR.
I was just wandering can you blow doors up. or punch through. That would be good to have.
On the other hand is it really necessary to have three different options that do the same thing - ie open the lock on a door?


You can argue that it's unnecessary. I disagree, but objectively there are fewer avenues of attack. Granted, dropping the skill system changes things somewhat in this regard, but I think that was a bad idea, too.

Yes, some of the skills in the original Deus Ex were clumsy, but axing the whole system is not the answer. The only reason Augmentations override them is because they dropped the skills and are forced to compensate for that by creating new augmentations or broadening the scope of old ones. It's at the point where augmentations don't really seem to make sense in the context of the Deus Ex series.
No, i meant to say that augmentations naturally override natural skills, or should if they are advanced enough.
If they would provide the whole gameplay based on Adam refusing augmentations then skills would be necessary to compensate though i cant see how could he go against augmented enemies.


But that's total bull****. And for someone who's stated old school isometic CRPGs are their bread and butter, it's a bit surprising. An augmentation is a piece of equipment. Equipment physically attached to your body, but equipment nonetheless. With this kind of logic we might go even further: "Skills and Augs are gone. For all intents and purposes guns are the skills now. With the experience you gain from finding hidden rooms and unlocking doors, you upgrade your guns to improve recoild and reload."
I was explaining the same thing back at one particular old school rpg forum. Its only a difference in semantics basically.
A different name. Functionality wise its the same thing.

Take weapon skill from DX. Why does it make sense you do greater damage if you enhanced that skill?
It doesnt really - Its just an approximation.
The same thing can be handled in a different way.

And no, if you take that logic into unlogical absurd territory that doesn't make your argument more valid.


It's less to me about the cool-factor or the cheap-factor and more about what makes sense in the world of Deus Ex. Everything I hear about new augmentations just seems so obnoxious.
Why and how?


My maxed out melee character would end groups of enemies in seconds. If you run in without any skill in the weapon you are using, it's going to be a mess. That's why Deus Ex emphasized thoughtful approaches, avoidance, hit and run tactics (pop a guy or two with the crosbow and return to your hiding place til they are conked out).
As far as i can see DX;HR encourages the same approach. Remember that the demo they showed had Adam almost invulnerable, with unlimited energy for augs and the enemies weaker (as the box guard).


And yet, not as many as there were available in the original.
Because several in the original were doing the same thing basically.


Of course they are personal, subjective arguments. They can't not be. Yours are too. If we were to boil this down to completely objective arguments, we would be saying nothing. We'd be retyping the frequently asked questions. We can, though, objectively say what the original Deus Ex did and what DEHR is doing. And if something cannot be defended keeping in mind the goals the original Deus Ex attempted to achieve, then I t don't think it's unfair to say that a particular mechanic in DEHR is not keeping in spirit with the original game. Does that mean the entire Deus Ex experience is ruined? Perhaps, perhaps not.
I try and i think i succeeded in drawing a line between my subjective likes and dislikes and objective arguments based on available info.
I think the difference is noticeable.

I already said several times i personally would accept real arguments and criticism of specific features. on some, like health regen i agree.

I`ll make it even more clear and say that i think you guys have every right to criticize and complain and suggest.



Can I ask how you felt about Fallout 3's gameplay and perspective changes?
That piece of crap doesnt deserve that name. - in short.

But its a completely another ball game. Virtually nothing of the originals survived and what bits did were so mangled and so poor in execution and actual gameplay that you cannot compare.
Its a prime example of dumbing down and just flat out ripping off a setting and sometimes just flat out idiocy on all levels of the game. They did pay for it but that doesnt make it any less horrible then it is and they had the nerve to name it as a direct sequel of all things.

You guys have it all compared to that awful mess.
You still have the main perspective, same gameplay, same main features, same setting and the story.

We got none of it.

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 02:17
Can't animations be counteracted with another animation? :scratch:

In a broader sense many quirks could be fixed, and in the case of killing/takedowns animations, either by letting you push the NPC and making a run for it or by lettting you hold the NPC as a shield. Though I have to admit I don't know how much time killing/takedown animations will take. I'm expecting (but I don't know) that some augmented NPC's to be harder and take more time to kill, so the following idea could work (in theory):

For instance if we used a live NPC as a shield and positioned the PC effectively, other enemy NPCs could flank us. They would have the option to fire back if we started to fire at them or if their patience runs up (and in this way killing the NPC shield). Though, before that, you could just let off/push the NPC shield and make a run for it. That means if you triggered a killing animation you'd still have the option to 'cancel' it with another animation without necessarily killing the opponent.

You'd still be able to see the surroundings in FP (or TP) if, for instance, you had control over the PC's head - you'd need to press a button (action button for instance) like it's usually done when switching to "mouse look".

This the idea anyway. I didn't test it.
Sure, they could do that and having an option of holding an NPC as a shield would be sweet.
Or pushing him into his buddy.

As for takedowns: Non-lethal ones are actually hard to do with your bare hands and would take a lot of time even if they dont turn out into a full hand to hand fight which most of them would.
Lethal ones depend on how precise you are while being very fast and we saw in the trailer they last a second at the most.
I dont think it will be an issue unless they do something very illogical and wrong.

If you had to kill someone in reality and even if you can do it reasonably quickly, would you do it in front of their friends who have guns?

Corse not.

neoWilks
14th Jun 2010, 02:24
You are gaining something. You're gaining spacial awareness, which is important in melee combat. The stabs and grabs would have to be needlessly simplified if done in a first person view.

Thought Crysis handled grabs pretty alright for an FPS. My understanding is Riddick's first person fighting system was pretty well done, too. But you're not looking for just complicated stabs and grabs, you're looking for visually complicated stabs and grabs. I would argue the two are quite different. We're not talking about button combos here, stinging together attacks. We are talking about you walking up to a dude, clicking a button, and having the game then take control away from you so it can complete some stylish, flashy visual display. Deus Ex is not the matrix.


Likewise, cover and ladder climbing are both situations where simulating small movements of the neck and peeking are hard to simulate from a first person view. Instead it ends up feeling like you're rotating and moving your entire "body," because you ARE. Third person avoids making such situations awkward.

I thought the lean function in Deus Ex worked fine. It's certainly not as intuitive a cover system as Gears of War or Mass Effect 2, but in those cases you have other kinds of problems. Levels designed entirely around cover systems, walls and boxes strewn about just so you can dive from shield to shield. It's cluttered and boring. Personally I'll trade a perfect cover system for something that works pretty alright and lacks the ridiculous level design.

'Course I could be wrong. They might design the levels in a less obnoxious manner. I'm just hard pressed to count on it. But I'd like an answer on the subject of Half-Life. How would you fell about Half-Life adopting a hybrid first-person/third-person system? If you're okay with that, then is there any reason to continue making pure FP shooters?


They already commented on that. They weren't going to keep everything too low tech because a lot of the technology used in Deus Ex is already old by our standards, much less the time period its supposed to take place in. It's a bit of a retcon, but it doesn't really effect canon so I'm not bothered by it.

Does anyone really see the human race completely doing away with mechanical locks in 17 years? That'd be crazy. Deus Ex is not set in "The Future!" It's near-future. We're not even talking rough, Blade Runner near future. It's more like the X-Files with robots and more advanced body modifications (like stuff that already exists to some degree right now).


No options have been removed. Unlocking a door with a lockpick or an electronic lockpick functions exactly the same way. Using two items to accomplish the same task does not count as an alternative option. Nothing has been lost. FFS, I can't believe we're having this argument all over again after IW.

Like I said, with skills gone it became less of an issue. Because with skills some people could only pick it, some could only bypass it, some had to hack a pc, some could only blow it up. Some could do a few of those, but it put more emphasis on the choices you make regarding your character. Lockpicks and Multitools were not unlimited and so you had to make choices based on how much it would cost you. Same circumstance in using LAMs.

Obviously if everyone can do all of those it no longer matters. But that's sort of another problem I was getting at.


The only skill that has been replaced by an aug is hacking, which is just fine with me. Augs have multiple branches in this game, so if anything we could end up with some more advanced than the original, not less. The vast majority of skills in the first game were all weapon skills that I would expect someone with as much training as Adam/JC/Alex to already have to begin with. Playing as a black ops commando who can't use a gun is ridiculous and if you're going to have a skill tree it should give you access to skills that go BEYOND what is reasonably expected by default. The DX skill tree started out totally gimped and made you play through half the game before JC was at least competent in a firefight. There's no good reason to include the same mistake a second time.

Agreed, but it's a red herring. I think you'll find pretty much nobody who thinks Deus Ex' skill system was perfect and didn't need to be tweaked at all.


Elaborate. I'm not seeing anything about the new augmentations that breaks from what we know about the DX universe.
It doesn't strictly break from the world. It more breaks from the tone. That being a grounded, near-future, scifi. An augmentation that shoots out little nano bombs all around you that then explode and decomate a room is obnoxious and over the top. Deus Ex' augs were far more subtle. Things like active defensive measures, stealth enhancements, and things that temporarily boosted your physical abilities. Nothing like a doomsday device hidden away in your elbow.


>>>EDIT:


Gotta go here, so responding briefly...


:scratch:
How can there be less then none? More of course since it seems they do not comunicate at all and i read an interview where one of them is bragging about forums and how they pay attention to the fans.
that was the reason i joined here at first since i approve and like such way of doing business.

What bull**** and flat out lie.

Oh-Kay, I read it the other way and was all "WHAT??"



On the other hand is it really necessary to have three different options that do the same thing - ie open the lock on a door?

I don't see why it isn't. Are infiltration skills less important than combat skills? Especially for a game purporting to allow a no-kill run? Because we could make the same argument to drop melee weapons. 'Cause how many different ways do we really need to ice some sucker?


And no, if you take that logic into unlogical absurd territory that doesn't make your argument more valid.

I don't see why it's any more absurd than having skill points somehow make your strength augmentation stronger. :/
Why and how?


That piece of crap doesnt deserve that name. - in short.

But its a completely another ball game. Virtually nothing of the originals survived and what bits did were so mangled and so poor in execution and actual gameplay that you cannot compare.
Its a prime example of dumbing down and just flat out ripping off a setting and sometimes just flat out idiocy on all levels of the game. They did pay for it but that doesnt make it any less horrible then it is and they had the nerve to name it as a direct sequel of all things.

You guys have it all compared to that awful mess.
You still have the main perspective, same gameplay, same main features, same setting and the story.

We got none of it.
COMMON GROUND!! :friends:

FrankCSIS
14th Jun 2010, 02:39
the rest of what you said either doesnt make any sense to me or is just your personal preference.

Nothing to do with personal preference. Fire up a third person shooter where there is no wall-hugging cover system. Just put Max Payne 1 on, I'm sure you have it in your library. Find a location where you have a doorway, the game is filled with them. Pop open the door and try to position yourself nicely along the doorway without getting shot at every now and then. Now, without using bullet time, pivot around the doorway in order to shoot at a guy or two, and tell me it's not clumsy.

Third person movements, on land, are clumsy by default. That's why they came up with wall-hugging as a cover system, and over-the-shoulder camera for the aiming/shooting parts. The reason is very simple to understand really. In third person your control is one of reaction. You move something else, constantly adapting to where it ends up and how it reacts to the nearby environment. First person, by its very nature, has instinctive movement. It's much easier to move around a corner and know your exposition, because you see for yourself where the wall/doorway ends.

Nothing hard to understand, really.

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 03:05
Nothing to do with personal preference. Fire up a third person shooter where there is no wall-hugging cover system. Just put Max Payne 1 on, I'm sure you have it in your library. Find a location where you have a doorway, the game is filled with them. Pop open the door and try to position yourself nicely along the doorway without getting shot at every now and then. Now, without using bullet time, pivot around the doorway in order to shoot at a guy or two, and tell me it's not clumsy.

Third person movements, on land, are clumsy by default. That's why they came up with wall-hugging as a cover system, and over-the-shoulder camera for the aiming/shooting parts. The reason is very simple to understand really. In third person your control is one of reaction. You move something else, constantly adapting to where it ends up and how it reacts to the nearby environment. First person, by its very nature, has instinctive movement. It's much easier to move around a corner and know your exposition, because you see for yourself where the wall/doorway ends.

Nothing hard to understand, really.
That is completely a personal preference problem.
I played Max and loved it and never had any problem with its PoV at any time.

Thats the way such thing play out for you so you suppose that makes it a universal rule.

I wasnt moving "something else" or a "puppet" - i was moving Max around.
Never had the problem of evaluating where he is in relation to environment.

When i play Fallout sometimes i play with my character and sometimes i play me (with stats that supposedly reflect me) - no disconnect at all.

You can stop repeating your personal preferences now as if they are actual arguments since ill just ignore or ridicule them from now on.

super...
14th Jun 2010, 03:15
good lord do you people have nothing better to do?

Ulysses
14th Jun 2010, 03:18
One thing I always hated about third person is the cheat you get where you can see stuff your character wouldn't. Same thing with a cover system as well, you'd have a vague idea of where people are, but not that clear and precise.

FrankCSIS
14th Jun 2010, 03:19
The argument of subjectivity has become an all-out joke on this forum.

You're right, let's just ignore physical realities. Wall-hugging is absolutely not a symptom of problematical land movement and wall bouncing. Roll overs and air dives have nothing to do with pivoting issue. Over the shoulder camera was aboslutely not spawned by the desire to make aiming more precise.

It's all in my head, clearly. I yield, I yield!

IOOI
14th Jun 2010, 03:23
Likewise, cover and ladder climbing are both situations where simulating small movements of the neck and peeking are hard to simulate from a first person view. Instead it ends up feeling like you're rotating and moving your entire "body," because you ARE. Third person avoids making such situations awkward.


Try putting your back against a wall (either standing or crouched) and peeking around the corner. If you put your hands together (with a gun in your hands or some similar shaped object) down close to the body and peek, does it still look like you're moving your body that much? Try it around both sides of a door so you can have a feeling how it would be with both hands.

Now try: 1) peeking; 2) and then putting your hands (with a gun or object) around the corner without exposing all your body. Would it feel that awkward in a game?


With full body awareness, you could see your shoulders leaning against the wall, and your weapon arm lifted in the air and pressing against the wall. Do the test at home (or work, but don't let anyone see you!) and then tell me that it wouldn't be even more engaging than a third person cover.

You could even make cover fire actually interesting, instead of a simple action move, because just as in real life all you'd see is your arm turning the corner and shooting blindly, not knowing whether or not you actually hit something. It would become the defensive move it actually is, instead of an attack move. It would also allow you to lean right after the cover fire without risking to get your head blown up, for half a second anyway.

Couple that with your other propositions of more realistic cover objects and situations for even more fun.


It's...a bit plain. Effective I assume, but plain. Having your face up against a rusty wall for most of the game will probably turn up to be annoying. That's why I suggested the possibility of also pressing your back against a wall, and allowing you to rotate your head to cover your sides and see slightly behind your shoulders, as you would in real life. Allows you to see around the corner when you lean, but also cover what would normally be behind and next to you. You can always turn around and storm the front when ready. I don't know how good a tactic it is in real life combat, but I can tell you right away it would make for a great immersive experience.


My 2 cents...



"FrankCSIS - F.P. Cover System" by IOOI :D



-Essentially there are two buttons needed to operate the cover system: cover button and action button (e.g: middle mouse button).
-When near a wall (crate, pillar, ... any object liable to make cover) pressing the cover button will put your back against the wall.
-You'll control the vision (head movement) with the mouse movements - you'll have the same range of motion like IRL*.
-You'll be able to move along the wall (left and right keys).

While in cover - System #1

-To peak you'll need to get to the edge of which side of the wall you intend to look (left or right) using the movement keys and if you hold the movement key (left, right and backward/jump/stance up) you'll peak (it can be toggled) - You'll be able to control your vision around the corner.
-To put the gun around the corner without firing you'll need to move as close to the edge as you can without peaking** and press the action button - you'll only be able to control the direction of the gun, but you'll not be able to see where you're aiming.
-To blindfire you'll need to move as close to the edge as you can without peaking and then press the primary fire button - the gun will be out around the corner as long as you press primary fire and you'll still be able to control the gun's direction.
-To get out of cover press forward - if you're peaking with the gun around the corner you'll be facing in the direction you're aiming so it feels natural - or the cover button.
-When you're peaking with the gun around the corner you'll still be able to use your scope for instance (e.g: secondary fire).

Other improvements:
-While standing up close and facing a guardrail if you press the action button and then forward you could be able to lean forward in order to see whats happening in a lower and upper level (with the mouse movement). To get out just press the backward key or the action button.



* - almost 360-degree field of view when turning the head from side to side.
** - To let the player know is getting closer to the edge there should be a change on the pace or the movement should be stopped (and then the player could use the movement key again to peak).

----------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Putting the gun around the corner without firing is intended to threat or scare, but you can still fire by pressing the primary fire button.
And obviously some actions can be toggled.

EDIT 2: I just forgot to mention how it works with low walls. It's simple, you just need to look up with the mouse and then: to put the gun above the wall without firing press the action button; to blindfire above the wall press the primary fire button.



About climbing ladders and viewing your surroundings, there is one simple way of doing this, by pressing a button (action button for instance) to enable to move the head/vision with mouse look. When you're finished release the button and the head/vision will center.

IOOI
14th Jun 2010, 03:44
Not really. The main problem with TP sneaking, and third person movement in general, is that you are never sure exactly where you are standing and what is your field of view. As such, especially around a corner, it's very difficult to know whether you are viewed by those you are sneaking on, as opposed to a FP view. This was somewhat ''solved'' by the wall-hugging gimmick, this system which assures you that so long as you are with your back against the wall no one from around the corner can see you.

Basic movements such as a pivot or simple walking\running are also problematic, because in third person you are always reacting to the movements your characters have done, whereas in FP you always know exactly where you are heading. It is very much less instinctive to control a puppet than it is to move your own entity. The only upside of TP are stunts, but I remain convinced full body awareness in FP would solve this issue.

The lack of smell and taste does not in any way influence your ability to know whether or not you are in danger. If anything, the only thing we're missing is whether or not the enemy is baking a delicious apple pie. Digital sound indicates where the steps are echoing from, and the field of view is exactly the one of a human being. They could and should work on developping better sound though, to enable us to make better use of our earing sense. The only problem with FP, which could easily be solved, is eye movements to a side or another without physically moving your body. A ''lean key'' for the eyes could solve this, at least when you are in a first person cover mode, where only the head is moving while the rest of the body remains against the wall. Mouse movement usually covers this, however, so I really don't see much of a problem.


Nothing to do with personal preference. Fire up a third person shooter where there is no wall-hugging cover system. Just put Max Payne 1 on, I'm sure you have it in your library. Find a location where you have a doorway, the game is filled with them. Pop open the door and try to position yourself nicely along the doorway without getting shot at every now and then. Now, without using bullet time, pivot around the doorway in order to shoot at a guy or two, and tell me it's not clumsy.

Third person movements, on land, are clumsy by default. That's why they came up with wall-hugging as a cover system, and over-the-shoulder camera for the aiming/shooting parts. The reason is very simple to understand really. In third person your control is one of reaction. You move something else, constantly adapting to where it ends up and how it reacts to the nearby environment. First person, by its very nature, has instinctive movement. It's much easier to move around a corner and know your exposition, because you see for yourself where the wall/doorway ends.

Nothing hard to understand, really.

I agree with this.

We need to do a 'Pros and Cons' about TP and FP views. No need for a poll, just something that puts things side to side.

QUICK, someone invite Dugas and Spector for this! It would be interesting. :D

MaxxQ1
14th Jun 2010, 04:06
In real life, I have a moderate fear of heights. I'm okay on 5 or 6 foot stepladders, or looking out the twenty-fifth floor window of a high-rise, but put me on a 20-foot ladder, or on an open terrace a couple hundred feet up, and I get some serious shakes. It's not debilitating, as I was able to work through it when I did rock-climbing (real rock-climbing, not that fake-wall-with-nubs-attached BS they have nowadays) almost 30 years ago.

In DX, I always get the shakes during the warehouse level (the first time you go there) when I look around and especially down, while climbing one of those tall ladders attached to the sides of the buildings. This even though I know it's a game with lousy graphics.

OTOH, I have no problems climbing ladders (or mountains, statues, or whatever, as in TR:U) in TP, because I don't see that character I see as *me*, since my view is completely separate from that character. I'm controlling that character, but it's as much *me* as the red robot from Rock 'em, Sock 'em Robots is.

Let's go back to the car analogy for a minute. Suppose you're a driver who *really* enjoys driving - not the kind of driving that most of us do, getting from point A to point B quicker, but the kind of driver who seeks out the twistiest, most challenging roads you can find, just so you can feel the wind in your hair, feel every little imperfection in the road, feel every bit of the lateral G's when making a nice tight turn, respond to every twitch of the steering wheel, and so on.

Now, suppose you're driving along, enjoying all that, and there's a turn coming up. You get ready to downshift going into the turn... and suddenly, you're in the back seat, behind your twin brother, watching do all the things you'd like to do, but have been forcibly taken from doing. Meanwhile, high-def TV monitors have popped up, showing you a complete 360 degree view of everything, but mainly concentrating on what's around the turn long before you actually experience it. Also, all sensation of lateral G's, bumps in the road, and wind in your hair has been rmoved by some mysterious force that's able to do that. All you are at this point is Jessica Tandy, and Morgan Freeman's doing the driving, unable to control, or have *any* influence over what happens next.

For some people, that's fine. I don't fault them for that. For others, it's an abhorrent way to "go for a drive", and I don't fault *them* either. Some games work well in TP (the aforementioned TR:U - or any TR game, for that matter - the BG series, PS:T, and so on) and some work well in FP (Half-Life - which I've only played a few hours of - DX, HL2, Far Cry, etc.). DX was pretty much always billed as an RPG/FPS hybrid, and even IW kept the FPS part. My feelings are that HR *should* be all FP (except maybe for convos, as in DX), but I'm not as against FP/TP switches as some here.

As I've stated before in other threads, I'm ambivalent about most of what I've heard about HR, but there are some things I'm leaning towards as being wrong changes to "update" the gameplay. That doesn't mean I think the game will outright suck, but that I will be looking at these changes with a more critical eye once I start playing (yes, I will most likely buy it day of release). However, it also does not mean that I am creaming my jeans over what I've been reading about it so far, even though some things have me excited.

Both sides of the various issues have been over the top at one point or another in their "discussions", and for the most part, it's annoying at best, and downright immature at worst. I left this board for several months awhile ago because of the vitriol spewed by *both* sides. I just read through this entire thread, and some arguments here have been well-presented, and others read like they were written by spoiled brats (on both sides). Some have both in the same post by the same person (talk about schizo), and those are the most difficult to get through because just when I'm thinking this person (or these persons) have made a point, they totally screw up their entire argument by calling someone a name, or otherwise belittling their opponent. At that point, anything they said previously is worth less than if they had said nothing at all.

Most of us here are fans of DX (I'm sure we've had a recent influx of peeps that have never played the original, or, as has been stated by a couple peeps, they've only played partway through), so we have something in common: a love for a game that was groundbreaking for its time, and in some ways, is still groundbreaking today. As has also been stated here before, DX:HR seems to have more in common with DX than it differs, which is a good thing. OTOH, where it differs can be considered fairly major, when taken as a whole. I don't think it will be a bad game, but, as has been asked before, will it be a good *DX* game? Despite the arguments both for and against, in the end, it's all subjective, and no one will be able to honestly answer that question (in their own opinion) until they play the game.

None of the opinions expressed in this thread are anything but opinions, and all opinions expressed in this thread are subjective. There is no such thing as an objective opinion, as long as someone disagrees with with said "objective" opinion. It would do a lot of people on this board some good to remember that.

On both sides.

Anasumtj
14th Jun 2010, 04:14
Full body awareness is cool and all, but I don't really want keyboard commands for shifting my eyes side to side.

IOOI
14th Jun 2010, 04:20
For some people, that's fine. I don't fault them for that. For others, it's an abhorrent way to "go for a drive", and I don't fault *them* either. Some games work well in TP (the aforementioned TR:U - or any TR game, for that matter - the BG series, PS:T, and so on) and some work well in FP (Half-Life - which I've only played a few hours of - DX, HL2, Far Cry, etc.). DX was pretty much always billed as an RPG/FPS hybrid, and even IW kept the FPS part. My feelings are that HR *should* be all FP (except maybe for convos, as in DX), but I'm not as against FP/TP switches as some here.


I can agree with you too.

Keyword here: *option*. That's what they should've done. Problem solved.

MaxxQ1
14th Jun 2010, 04:32
I can agree with you too.

Keyword here: *option*. That's what they should've done. Problem solved.

Here's a definite (subjective) opinion I can agree with.

loke13
14th Jun 2010, 05:25
Does anyone really see the human race completely doing away with mechanical locks in 17 years? That'd be crazy. Deus Ex is not set in "The Future!" It's near-future. We're not even talking rough, Blade Runner near future. It's more like the X-Files with robots and more advanced body modifications (like stuff that already exists to some degree right now).


they already have a mentally controlled prosthetic arm capable of both picking up heavy objects and holding a grape between the fingers without crushing it, and technology is always a few years farther ahead then the general public thinks. 17 years ago, cell phones were essentially non existent, and home computers were just coming out, now look at us.

Shralla
14th Jun 2010, 06:03
they already have a mentally controlled prosthetic arm capable of both picking up heavy objects and holding a grape between the fingers without crushing it, and technology is always a few years farther ahead then the general public thinks. 17 years ago, cell phones were essentially non existent, and home computers were just coming out, now look at us.

Hey, I saw your post on YouTube!

PenguinsFriend
14th Jun 2010, 16:09
If this has already been posted in here, please move this thread. I did look but couldn't find it.

This is a review of DX3 game play. Super cool:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/10/1014/

Tecman
14th Jun 2010, 16:41
Day four:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG5AnAFfxRA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KktWTc_Z40

beastosterone
14th Jun 2010, 16:44
Previewtisement.

imported_D_X
14th Jun 2010, 16:56
Thanks man that was new to me. There was some awesome stuff mentioned in there and then there was some worrying new details that I haven't heard before, like this sequence:

"A conversation unfolds in a cut-scene that reveals the hacker you’re after is at the shipyard. Fade out.

16m
The next section of the demo takes place at the dock. Adam ducks behind a low wall as he approaches the security gates – again the switch to third person feels useful rather than weird..."

That sounds to me like the game just jumps from the club location to the shipyard with a fade-out screen.:hmm: I really hope that the author has just decided to omit the walk to the docks, otherwise that sounds like a very ****y way to unfold the story. One of the greatest elements of the first Deus Ex was that you actually had to find your next location in order to progress the story, weather it be by talking to npc's or just through exploration. But again here's to hopping this is just a misinterpretation and not another dumbing-down for the PlayStation generation (no rhyming intended).

SageSavage
14th Jun 2010, 17:02
Thanks!

Ashpolt
14th Jun 2010, 17:03
^^ I think that's just because this was a demo build - EM specifically wanted to show off two distinct styles of play (conversation and combat) in a limited space of time, so they just patched together two bits of a level. At least, I hope.

FYI PenguinsFriend, this has been posted before: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109974

MOAS
14th Jun 2010, 17:12
here's the new article from pcgamer.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/14/deus-ex-3-screenshots-and-art-explained/

IOOI
14th Jun 2010, 18:49
Thanks man that was new to me. There was some awesome stuff mentioned in there and then there was some worrying new details that I haven't heard before, like this sequence:

"A conversation unfolds in a cut-scene that reveals the hacker you’re after is at the shipyard. Fade out.

16m
The next section of the demo takes place at the dock. Adam ducks behind a low wall as he approaches the security gates – again the switch to third person feels useful rather than weird..."

That sounds to me like the game just jumps from the club location to the shipyard with a fade-out screen.:hmm: I really hope that the author has just decided to omit the walk to the docks, otherwise that sounds like a very ****y way to unfold the story. One of the greatest elements of the first Deus Ex was that you actually had to find your next location in order to progress the story, weather it be by talking to npc's or just through exploration. But again here's to hopping this is just a misinterpretation and not another dumbing-down for the PlayStation generation (no rhyming intended).


^^ I think that's just because this was a demo build - EM specifically wanted to show off two distinct styles of play (conversation and combat) in a limited space of time, so they just patched together two bits of a level. At least, I hope.

FYI PenguinsFriend, this has been posted before: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109974

Yes, they skipped that part on purpose:


Jensen's then able to hide in a ventilation shaft and overhear a conversation that's relevant to his quest goal.

Eidos Montreal cut off the demo at that point and loaded up another section of the game to show off more combat elements.

http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/109/1096065p2.html

Shralla
14th Jun 2010, 19:32
Why did you make a new thread about this when it was posted several days ago, and we already have a thread dedicated to PC Gamer and their updates?

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109974

imported_D_X
14th Jun 2010, 20:12
@ IOOI
cool thanks.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
14th Jun 2010, 20:45
Why did you make a new thread about this when it was posted several days ago, and we already have a thread dedicated to PC Gamer and their updates?

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109974

Merged.

Corpus
14th Jun 2010, 21:04
Sucks to hear that the producer felt down about people hating it. Hope he gets cheered up soon :)

Ashpolt
14th Jun 2010, 22:03
Sucks to hear that the producer felt down about people hating it. Hope he gets cheered up soon :)

Link? I've read the PC Gamer articles but don't remember anything about that. Unless it's in the videos they posted today, of course - I haven't watched them yet.

Ilves
14th Jun 2010, 22:12
^ It's in one of the vids. And golly gosh, those kids don't really have a full grasp of the whole renaissance concept... Look! Curly motive! A leather wingchair! Renaissance! *Da Vinci facepalm*

Pinky_Powers
14th Jun 2010, 23:12
^ It's in one of the vids. And golly gosh, those kids don't really have a full grasp of the whole renaissance concept... Look! Curly motive! A leather wingchair! Renaissance! *Da Vinci facepalm*

The renaissance concept is found in the story and the politics and the state of society. You shouldn't chide them so hard for wanting to mirror that in the design work. :hmm:

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 23:25
I think a much more interesting thing is that health regen will become active only when youre not in combat.
Quite nice i think.
second one, around 7;00 to 7;50

Ashpolt
14th Jun 2010, 23:26
^ It's in one of the vids.

So it is - at the very end of the second one. Frankly, I love the idea that the producer is getting down at the negative reaction they've received from some corners. Good. Shame they're not doing anything about it, really.

MechBFP
14th Jun 2010, 23:28
So it is - at the very end of the second one. Frankly, I love the idea that the producer is getting down at the negative reaction they've received from some corners. Good. Shame they're not doing anything about it, really.

That is why trolls do what they do after all.

Ashpolt
14th Jun 2010, 23:44
I'm apparently missing the point of your post. Care to explain?

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 23:46
Can you stop arguing and discuss something from the latest article instead?

If you cant i would prefer if you do it somewhere else.

IOOI
14th Jun 2010, 23:47
I think he's trying to say that devs are the biggest 'trolls' here in this forum. That's for sure.

Hiver
14th Jun 2010, 23:53
I dont care really. keep on topic since there is new info or make some other thread and do that there.

Ashpolt
14th Jun 2010, 23:54
Can you stop arguing and discuss something from the latest article instead?

If that was directed at me, please note that my post wasn't arguing, just asking for clarification.

[EDIT] And that it's stemmed from something that came from the latest PC Gamer article, hence is on-topic.

Hiver
15th Jun 2010, 00:08
Your assertion that they arent doing anything about it is pointless as anything else other then a troll that will cause further arguing.
If you want to do that go and make a thread about it.

Ashpolt
15th Jun 2010, 00:10
Can I point out the irony of you arguing about my statement causing an argument, or would that be argumentative? :D

Hiver
15th Jun 2010, 00:37
No, because that is arguing and a pretty obvious one too.

How about that health regen huh? It turned out it is very limited and slow on top of that.
It wont be able to save you in combat. Pretty simple solution that makes it much less intrusive and game breaking.

How about them mind-control implants?

JackShandy
15th Jun 2010, 01:04
Hiver, a Troll would be going into the Deus Ex 3 forums and saying: "Hey, guys, how about that Abortion! Eh? Eh?"

Going into the Deus Ex 3 forums and arguing about the producer of Deus Ex 3 isn't trolling in any way, shape or form.

ANYWAY because we are slaves to the topic: Mind control strikes me as very similar to computer hacking. As in- you could managed to get by without a high hacking skill and still open a lot of computers, just by being clever and guessing the passwords. Social seems to be the same way- you could make your way through social interactions by figuring out the conversation battles, or just mind-control them if you're not in the mood.

Ulysses
15th Jun 2010, 02:00
Comments about the health kits making you invincible are pretty funny. But decent videos, somewhat informative.

Pinky_Powers
15th Jun 2010, 02:51
I think a much more interesting thing is that health regen will become active only when youre not in combat.
Quite nice i think.
second one, around 7;00 to 7;50

This is great news!

Ilves
15th Jun 2010, 05:17
The renaissance concept is found in the story and the politics and the state of society. You shouldn't chide them so hard for wanting to mirror that in the design work. :hmm:

I was chiding those kids narrating the video. I'm having a total love affair with the art direction for HR, not a bad word about that. http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/351/23417636gt0.gif

Pinky_Powers
15th Jun 2010, 05:23
I gotch'ya now.

Irate_Iguana
15th Jun 2010, 06:48
Is there a text version?

Daedalus Ciarán
15th Jun 2010, 11:19
I think a much more interesting thing is that health regen will become active only when youre not in combat.
Quite nice i think.
second one, around 7;00 to 7;50

So when we're in a firefight, we can't heal ourselves in any way, and we take roughly five hits before we start to feel the cold hand of death (according to another article)? How do we heal then, do we have to run away and hide from the enemies for a certain length of time, or reload from our last save? So we'll have to backtrack :rolleyes: or reload if we get stuck in a sticky situation? And medkits were taken out because...

JackShandy
15th Jun 2010, 11:29
Actually, daedalus, I believe the game has medi-kits to use in the heat of battle, even though health regen doesn't kick in. Weren't we complaining that the health regen would be too fast a while back? Will this new comment make people complain that having the medipacks as well will make it too easy?

I thought- well, hoped- they'd announce that the health regen worked like this. This is what I imagined when they were talking about removing medipacks. Not a COD insta-heal system, just something that makes it so that you don't need to apply medpacks in-between battles, remove the possibility of being stuck dragging two broken legs around with no medpacks left. Seems like the least possible evil the health regen system could wreak, imo.

PenguinsFriend
15th Jun 2010, 12:52
^^ I think that's just because this was a demo build - EM specifically wanted to show off two distinct styles of play (conversation and combat) in a limited space of time, so they just patched together two bits of a level. At least, I hope.

FYI PenguinsFriend, this has been posted before: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109974

Thanks Ash - the mods moved me :)

PenguinsFriend
15th Jun 2010, 12:53
Merged.

Thanks - I couldn't find it for looking!

PenguinsFriend
15th Jun 2010, 13:01
Actually, daedalus, I believe the game has medi-kits to use in the heat of battle, even though health regen doesn't kick in. Weren't we complaining that the health regen would be too fast a while back? Will this new comment make people complain that having the medipacks as well will make it too easy?

I thought- well, hoped- they'd announce that the health regen worked like this. This is what I imagined when they were talking about removing medipacks. Not a COD insta-heal system, just something that makes it so that you don't need to apply medpacks in-between battles, remove the possibility of being stuck dragging two broken legs around with no medpacks left. Seems like the least possible evil the health regen system could wreak, imo.

Not to be an as$, but I've always felt that health healing through med pack (or whatever) during battle is kinda dumb. I mean, if you had a .45 and were shooting me, i'd have to get you off me as$ before I can crawl into a hole and patch up - I sure as hec ain't gonna break it out and wrap bandages on myself while runnin' and gunnin' :)

My personal take - the med packs we do get to use should be adrenilyn (/sp) shots - you know, break out a needle and juice yourself so you can resist the damage while you kill or evade the attackers. When it's over, that's the time to let health regen do its thing or use a different kind of med pack to speed the healing process - or, sleep in a bed so my limbs automaticaly repair themselves (thanks Fallout 3 - argggg!:rolleyes:).

The Deadly Shadow
15th Jun 2010, 17:00
What's wrong with health regeneration? All you had to do in the original is press F9 and it regenerated anyway. Don't see what the obsessive whining and moaning is about.

Hertzila
15th Jun 2010, 17:15
What's wrong with health regeneration? All you had to do in the original is press F9 and it regenerated anyway. Don't see what the obsessive whining and moaning is about.

It was an option, not forced. And it still required resources, namely your bioenergy.

This topic has been discussed to death so please use search if you want to see all of it.

The Deadly Shadow
15th Jun 2010, 17:20
It was an option, not forced. And it still required resources, namely your bioenergy.

This topic has been discussed to death so please use search if you want to see all of it.

All I see is a load of people still whining about it, so we're allowed to call you up on it.

Ashpolt
15th Jun 2010, 17:22
Please learn the difference between "whining" and "criticising", it'll save you a lot of grief on this forum.

Unless your intention is to troll, in which case, calling it whining is the way to go.

68_pie
15th Jun 2010, 17:24
Before we start a new health regen debate make sure you've read the old ones.

....

Now feel free to go ahead.

The Deadly Shadow
15th Jun 2010, 17:28
It was an option, not forced. And it still required resources, namely your bioenergy.


Which was really easy to get, and it didn't use much ENERGY so it's not like you were depending on every single point. At least the new-age method of health is less patronising and cuts out the really lame method of using a med-pack in mid-battle which worked instantly. That's as unbelievable as the health system inspired by Halo.

MaxxQ1
15th Jun 2010, 17:52
Which was really easy to get, and it didn't use much ENERGY so it's not like you were depending on every single point. At least the new-age method of health is less patronising and cuts out the really lame method of using a med-pack in mid-battle which worked instantly. That's as unbelievable as the health system inspired by Halo.

The difference is that getting the regen aug in DX meant you had to go through about half the game before it became available. At that point, it could be considered a reward for getting as far as you had. With the DX3 regen, you have it from the start, with no choice but to use it. The player has no control over it - it's just there, always working. The hardcore DX fans want to have the ability to control when and where they use something like that. Making it automatic removes that sense of control, making the game feel that much more like it's playing itself, rather than being a fully interactive experience.

OTOH, in recent talks about the game (I think in the videos from PC Gamer), it's strongly hinted that the regen aug does *not* regen while in combat. If so, then I think I can live with it.

Hiver
15th Jun 2010, 18:56
I would be most happy if health regeneration was an aug you can buy, and a very expensive one.
Still, if it must be there from the start i guess not having it working in combat makes it tolerable.

Deadly shadow, please no accusations of whining. Thats just flaming others and serves no other purpose.

dropthesky
15th Jun 2010, 19:35
On the Skills vs Aug upgrade front
--
I thought choosing to buy augs could be controversial because of the transhumanism subplotline. In DX if I want to swim better I can use skills, now I need to get mechanical leg parts and use xp to swim faster? (this is an example I don't know if swimming is even in the game)

Just showing how skills =/= augs like a lot of people have been saying. Especially with the plot of the game. Sounds like to do anything meaningful in this game we're going to have to augment ourselves to the teeth.

Hiver
15th Jun 2010, 21:41
I dont mind. You had to improve your nano augs or whatever if you wanted to get anywhere in dx1 right?
As far as i can deduce the choice will be going for only a few augs and then upgrading them to the max , depending how you want to play, or upgrading most or all of them a bit.

Im pretty sure i wont ever use that "empathy" aug for dialogues.

No word on the swimming yet but maybe there is some kind of lung aug for diving (and smoking three packs a day).

Malah
15th Jun 2010, 21:58
You get to choose between a mermaid tail and normal legs. True story.

Pldgmygrievance
15th Jun 2010, 22:05
The PC gamer site is a day behind. Frustrating

dropthesky
15th Jun 2010, 22:23
I dont mind. You had to improve your nano augs or whatever if you wanted to get anywhere in dx1 right?
As far as i can deduce the choice will be going for only a few augs and then upgrading them to the max , depending how you want to play, or upgrading most or all of them a bit.

Im pretty sure i wont ever use that "empathy" aug for dialogues.

No word on the swimming yet but maybe there is some kind of lung aug for diving (and smoking three packs a day).


Right, but that's not the issue. There was no subplot about your character maybe being adverse to receiving further augmentations. Initially they made it seem that forgoing further augmentation would be a subplot in the story. I hear little about that now.

ChrisVCB
15th Jun 2010, 23:02
Right, but that's not the issue. There was no subplot about your character maybe being adverse to receiving further augmentations. Initially they made it seem that forgoing further augmentation would be a subplot in the story. I hear little about that now.

I'm with you. I brought this up in another thread a week or so ago; theres meant to be this whole transhumanism, 'how far will you go with augmentation' angle thats been raised, with it suggested that you could forgo augmentation if you didn't agree with it. But with no skill system, it sounds like you are totally reliant on Augs, whether you like it or not.

The great thing is in DX, I don't think you actually need augs all that much. I for one only use them rarely - the bulk of JCs 'powers' come from skills - weapons, lockpicking, hacking, electronics, etc. Medical kit isn't in short supply, and in terms of kit, ammunition and weapons, theres plenty to go with before you even get into Augs, provided you manage it right. This is part of the great thing about the first game, in my opinion; it feels like the augs make you superhuman, but without them, you're still an absolute badass. It's hard to explain exactly what I mean, but thats the jist; because you're not reliant on the augs, they have that much more 'weight' in the 'this is something really special' category.

I guess this is something heavily invested in both personal opinion and personal playstyle- in DX1, I always use my augs sparingly, the only time I turn them on are those occasions when Ive no option but to jump into a room with 5 or 6 enemies. Because of my playstyle, I tend to regard Augs as inessential, but very very powerful when I need them.

My concern is that in DX:HR, the focus is going to be all about the augs, pushing them from a 'there if I need them' to role a 'can't do anything without them' role. I have a feeling i'm going to just feel like a walking tin opener than a badass agent with a bunch of tricks up my sleeve. And this aspect of it is even before we consider the whole supposed transhumanism element in which we might not want to augment ourselves.

Only time will tell. The game may well be designed so that like DX, we can achieve most of what we want to achieve without augs, and that as with DX, Augs simply make our lives easier, rather than being a requirement. However, I do have a nasty feeling in my gut, telling me that, in focusing on Mechanical Augmentation as they have, they've probably overlooked the fact that augs were mostly never -really- needed in DX, and instead made them a central feature, one which is required for the player to adopt if he wants to stand a chance. Thus far, it certainly does look as if they've made the augmentation thing thier central feature, thats for sure.

Corpus
16th Jun 2010, 12:52
http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/06/16/interview-the-art-of-deus-ex-human-revolution/

New article folks, pretty interesting read.

Ilves
16th Jun 2010, 13:48
Obviously there’s no quick time events or whatever [...]

Big fat sigh of relief!

Thanks Corpus for the heads up.

Ashpolt
16th Jun 2010, 14:06
My first thought was "Oh great, another THE ART!!!!! interview", but there are a couple of things to take from this.

The good:

Belletete: "Obviously there’s no quick time events or whatever." Hooray!


The bad:

PC Gamer: "When you do a takedown move and it cuts to third person, it seems like quite a jarring difference."
Belletete: "So… are you saying that the switch of view is a little weird? Or the fact that you’re watching something happening in front of you is a little weird, or is it both?"
PC Gamer: "It’s kind of the change. When you’re playing a first person shooter, you’re in control of every action. When you press ‘fire’, there’s not much difference between that and pulling a trigger, whereas here you’re pressing ‘fire’ and he’s doing a whole series of moves and you’re watching it happen."

...Sums up about half my fears about the system. Belletete then says (basically) "It worked well in the Bourne and Bond games" which is missing the point, as they aren't same style of game as Deus Ex is meant to be. That said, Belletete is the art director, not involved directly with gameplay, so I won't read too much into that poor comparison.

Kodaemon
16th Jun 2010, 14:18
On the issue of necessity of augs, I think we're missing something here:

Augs cost money. What you don't spend on augs, you can probably spend on weapon mods (and it seems there's a lot of them to choose from) and other stuff (remember that curious item template system? Making mines from grenades etc.?).

Also, even if you don't buy new augs, you can still spend your xp on the augs you get initially (the arms, the eyes, possibly your brain).

So, I'm quite confident you can do fine without installing new augs.

rokstrombo
16th Jun 2010, 14:23
Interesting interview. I didn't realise Jacques-Ballette was the model for Adam Jensen, but I do see the resemblance. Maybe he just needs some "robot arms"! He sounds less like he is reading from bullet points than Dugas, but I guess he has to do a lot of these interviews!

Regarding the art direction of the first game, I thought the bright orange/gold in the NYC sky line was a striking choice given the very bleak and underpopulated police state that the player actually gets to see up close. The view from Liberty Island was one of the few in the entire game where the world didn't look like it was dying. It was an interesting way to introduce the player to the game's setting. I understand from the descriptions that in Deus Ex: HR the player will get to see more of this side of the world than in the first game, which I am very excited about.

Also, is it common practice to use focus groups to help decide on art direction in games?

Ashpolt
16th Jun 2010, 14:47
Also, is it common practice to use focus groups to help decide on art direction in games?

With Eidos Montreal, everything is decided by focus group. Including the members of other focus groups. Whether you know it or not, you're part of one of these focus groups, and other people are part of a focus group judging your worthiness for focus group inclusion, going on infinitely.

Bono
16th Jun 2010, 14:54
Obviously we’re doing everything to please the fans, but we need to get a lot of people other than the fans, it’s just the nature of the games industry. This game needs to make money, right? I’m not going to make screens that are 4:3 ratio just because that’s what they had in the first one. It makes no sense, we’re already way beyond that today, so I need to follow suit.

Now, as far as the Cyber Renaissance, well, it’s somewhat of a reboot of the franchise. Notice that the number 3 is not in the title. A lot of people have no idea what Deus Ex is. The fans think that the whole universe knows what that game is, but it’s just not true.

Got a question.

Why the hell are you 'innovating' within the Deus Ex franchise if a lot of people have no idea what Deus Ex is? Why bothering with this third-person crap and 'rebooting the franchise' if only a couple of people know about this franchise? Why not making a purely stand-alone game under a new title?

Jonathan, you risk to alienate some few remaining fans of the game by calling it Deus Ex and then messing things up, while the majority of your target audience don't give a **** if it's called Deus Ex or not Deus Ex.

WildcatPhoenix
16th Jun 2010, 14:56
This part is about as close as they come to acknowledging what we've known for a while:

"Jacques-Belletete: ...A lot of people have no idea what Deus Ex is. The fans think that the whole universe knows what that game is, but it’s just not true.

PCG: Yeah.

Jacques-Belletete: And trust me, I was one of those people. The first focus test was a big eye opener, so hopefully the aesthetic choices that we made is also to try to have a very tangible flavour that’ll attract a lot of people also."

Most of these design choices have been made to draw in people who are not original Deus Ex fans. I can't blame Eidos Montreal for doing it this way, especially since Deus was always more of a cult hit than a blockbuster smash like Halo or Call of Duty or Gears.

But damn, what I wouldn't give for a new Deus Ex built for the fans. Maybe the DX fans themselves are the only way for this to happen? If DX:HR comes with an SDK or modtools, there might still be hope...

rokstrombo
16th Jun 2010, 15:06
But damn, what I wouldn't give for a new Deus Ex built for the fans. Maybe the DX fans themselves are the only way for this to happen? If DX:HR comes with an SDK or modtools, there might still be hope...

Well there is a Deus Ex built by the fans, for the fans and about the fans. Can't beat that!

Pinky_Powers
16th Jun 2010, 15:09
More reassuring sentiments! :D


Now, this being said, there’s no way that we could have a stealth as good as I think we have and at the same time always have crazy scripted events a la Modern Warfare 2, where they probably spent six months polishing each one of those events, you know? It’s just not possible.

The goal is to have a really good shooter, and a really good stealth game, and a really good RPG. This is it.

Kodaemon
16th Jun 2010, 15:10
@Bono

Well that's simple. Marketing! Even if the majority of the audience doesn't know DX, you can center your campaign around the game being part of a legendary series. Like what they're doing now. Every preview mentions how awesome DX was.

Same thing happened with BioShock - "Ooh, look, we're doing a spiritual successor to the System Shocks! You might have not heard about the games, but they were great and gaming snobs love them! And you'll like our new one since we put in more shiny!" In the end, BioShock turned to be hardly more sophisticated than your average shooter, the new audience had a false sense of elevation into the "upper class of gamers" by playing it.

rokstrombo
16th Jun 2010, 15:11
With Eidos Montreal, everything is decided by focus group.

:lmao:


Whether you know it or not, you're part of one of these focus groups, and other people are part of a focus group judging your worthiness for focus group inclusion, going on infinitely.

I forgot about that focus group!

Kodaemon
16th Jun 2010, 15:13
Well there is a Deus Ex built by the fans, for the fans and about the fans. Can't beat that!

It's the "about the fans" part that makes most potential players cringe at the very thought of installing TNM.

Jerion
16th Jun 2010, 15:13
With Eidos Montreal, everything is decided by focus group. Including the members of other focus groups. Whether you know it or not, you're part of one of these focus groups, and other people are part of a focus group judging your worthiness for focus group inclusion, going on infinitely.

Yeah, uh, about the forum community...:whistle:

Kodaemon
16th Jun 2010, 15:15
Yeah, uh, about the forum community...:whistle:

As if we have any influence on EM :rolleyes:

Jerion
16th Jun 2010, 15:19
As if we have any influence on EM :rolleyes:

You'd be surprised.

Kodaemon
16th Jun 2010, 15:24
So, you mean they're thinking of dumping health regen and third person shifts? Because those are the two things most of us here agree on.

Irate_Iguana
16th Jun 2010, 15:24
Absolutely. I’m happy to hear that. It’s always felt rather good and natural to us, so yeah, getting all the flak from, uh-

Hey, here's an idea. Just show us how it works. Show us how well it works and how natural it is. Instead you've done nothing of the sort and you get our worst fears in return. If you want us to understand than maybe you should be doing some actual communicating with the community instead of running everything past those focus groups.



It’s funny because focus testing cyberpunk and all that kind of stuff, we had a lot of surprises. We focus tested in London for Europe

Oh, crap. The country known only for poor weather, bad food, bad teeth, chavs and teen pregnancies. Kinda makes me wonder how that focus group looked like.



It's the "about the fans" part that makes most potential players cringe at the very thought of installing TNM.

It has at the very least kept me from installing it. I have no desire to spend a long time reading only in-jokes.

Daedalus Ciarán
16th Jun 2010, 15:27
...Sums up about half my fears about the system. Belletete then says (basically) "It worked well in the Bourne and Bond games" which is missing the point, as they aren't same style of game as Deus Ex is meant to be. That said, Belletete is the art director, not involved directly with gameplay, so I won't read too much into that poor comparison.

Yeah I remember when they first announced TPV and I thought back to a review I'd seen of the last James Bond game where the switching to TP was one of the major criticisms of the gameplay. It didn't do too well, but it was a pretty bland game that had some glaring flaws from what I remember, so it's not a perfect comparison to DX:HR since I seriously doubt DX:HR will be bland.

InGroove2
16th Jun 2010, 15:44
Oh, crap. The country known only for poor weather, bad food, bad teeth, chavs and teen pregnancies. Kinda makes me wonder how that focus group looked like.

this is ridiculous.



It has at the very least kept me from installing it. I have no desire to spend a long time reading only in-jokes.

this is just as ridiculous. it's not even 5 percent IN JOKES. Meta refferences? yeah. easter eggs? yeah.

Ilves
16th Jun 2010, 15:49
[...]poor weather, bad food, bad teeth, chavs and teen pregnancies.

...Cyberpunk?

Kodaemon
16th Jun 2010, 15:51
Punk at the very least. Also, good place for conspiracy theories and atmosphere of oppression.

Ulysses
16th Jun 2010, 16:19
You'd be surprised.

Heh, I would be, for certain. Very surprised. It's a pleasant fantasy though.

Ashpolt
16th Jun 2010, 16:35
You'd be surprised.

Surprised? I'd be utterly in shock. As Kodaemon said, TPV and health regen are two things we've been complaining about massively on these forums for two years now, and they're still in, even though simply making them optional would quite literally please everybody. So yeah, I would be very, very surprised to hear that we've had any influence on EM.


Oh, crap. The country known only for poor weather, bad food, bad teeth, chavs and teen pregnancies. Kinda makes me wonder how that focus group looked like.

Hey, hey, hey! Not all English people are like that. I am neither a chav nor a teenage father, not do I have bad teeth. Bad food and poor weather - you've got us there.

WildcatPhoenix
16th Jun 2010, 18:17
I'm very torn on TNM. The level design and several of the new features draw me in, only to be pushed away by a storyline and characters that have exactly ZERO interest to me. *sigh*

I've been very impressed with the small but still surviving DX mod community, and I even have my own mod stuck in the eternal pit of development hell. But the reality of the mod scene is that nobody wants to spend months, maybe even years developing a mod from an engine that is over a decade old.

If we had the tools for that Tomb Raider engine, however... :whistle:

ZakKa89
16th Jun 2010, 19:15
I really like the new art.

http://media.pcgamer.com/files/2010/06/sarif2.jpg

Ashpolt
16th Jun 2010, 20:07
^^ I like the fact that they have a roomba.

WildcatPhoenix
16th Jun 2010, 20:08
Hehehe, I do kinda dig the Detroit Tigers poster in the back.

Tecman
16th Jun 2010, 20:17
Hehehe, I do kinda dig the Detroit Tigers poster in the back.

That's ...not a poster. :)

WildcatPhoenix
16th Jun 2010, 20:21
Lol. Guess I should've made a closer inspection. :lol: