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Phaid_Min6Char_Sigh
5th Jun 2010, 10:39
I'm asking because according to the preview in the July issue of PC Gamer, that is no longer the case. So what else has been dumbed down or removed to appease the Call of Duty/Halo crowd?

"Earlier this year, lead game designer Jean-Francois Dugas told PC Gamer, "We want to remove the RPG aspect of the fighting and make it more straightforward, like you see in games such as Rainbow Six. So if you're good at shooting, the game will not tell you you're not good at shooting because your stats are low."
This design decision will no doubt broaden the game's appeal, but our love of Deus Ex emanates from the lateral-thinking approaches we come up with when guns don't work. If spray-and-pray can get you through from one end to the other, Eidos Montreal risks making alternative approaches feel pointless."

spm1138
5th Jun 2010, 10:46
lol

SageSavage
5th Jun 2010, 10:47
Why don't you use the search-function? This has been discussed already but there's no official answer to this yet. Sounds like stat-based aiming has been removed. A good thing, imo.

JackShandy
5th Jun 2010, 10:50
I'd actually prefer that. JC can't hit the broad side of a barn, just because the game arbitrarily drags your cursor all over the screen to tell you you're bad at shooting. It's frustrating and stupid- surely my aim should depend on how good my aim actually is, not how good the game tells me it is?

The problem would be what they replace that with, to make sure you can't do well with guns if your stats are low... more damage per hit, I suppose?

Sabretooth1
5th Jun 2010, 10:55
Agreed, it's a good thing. Aiming without stats based pretty much takes out the FPS element, IMO. Besides, if you're not good with aiming, you're going go sneaking anyway. And if you're good with aiming, you can sneak too.

Hell, there might even be an auto-targeting augmentation or something to balance that.

MaxxQ1
5th Jun 2010, 10:56
Why don't you use the search-function? This has been discussed already but there's no official answer to this yet. Sounds like stat-based aiming has been removed. A good thing, imo.

Yeah, the PCG issue was brought up in a thread I started:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109253

...but the thread degenerated into an insult-fest and was closed (at my request).

Ulysses
5th Jun 2010, 11:04
I'd actually prefer that. JC can't hit the broad side of a barn, just because the game arbitrarily drags your cursor all over the screen to tell you you're bad at shooting. It's frustrating and stupid- surely my aim should depend on how good my aim actually is, not how good the game tells me it is?

The problem would be what they replace that with, to make sure you can't do well with guns if your stats are low... more damage per hit, I suppose?

Well, it would if it were an RPG. Player skill isn't character skill, as you're 'pretending' to be the guy in the game. And most likely they'd just use reticule spread like DX or RS, rather than forcing you to combat wobble. Shame that they did that, but I guess it makes more accessible.

Blade_hunter
5th Jun 2010, 11:13
DX had a poorly calibrated aiming system, nothing to do with the skill system.
but I can tell that the game was completely imbalanced in that area

I believe that skills and aiming system can live together and work fine.
But As I said Dugas wants to make an other R6 las vegas. so consider the RPG elements being part of the augmentation system only
And maybe have something that upgrades the weapon like well a fast reload, refire rate and damage increase, but I don't think they want even that.

Gaunt88
5th Jun 2010, 11:21
And maybe have something that upgrades the weapon like well a fast reload, refire rate and damage increase, but I don't think they want even that.

No, I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that weapon upgrades are still in.

Pinky_Powers
5th Jun 2010, 11:24
I still throw on some cheat codes whenever I play Deus Ex; give myself all the talent points for all weapon types. Stat-based aiming was the worst part of that game.

Blade_hunter
5th Jun 2010, 11:25
But not those; this what I suppose here.
You can always have silencers and scopes, they won't increase your weapon's stats even if those can change their use and versatility.

Pinky_Powers
5th Jun 2010, 11:28
DX had a poorly calibrated aiming system, nothing to do with the skill system.
but I can tell that the game was completely imbalanced in that area

I believe that skills and aiming system can live together and work fine.
But As I said Dugas wants to make an other R6 las vegas. so consider the RPG elements being part of the augmentation system only
And maybe have something that upgrades the weapon like well a fast reload, refire rate and damage increase, but I don't think they want even that.

If you can enter into conversation with NPCs, then HR is already a far different (and far better) game than R6 Vegas.

SageSavage
5th Jun 2010, 11:28
All these years and people still have trouble grasping the cross-genre concept behind FPS/RPG-hybrids... *sigh*


Yeah, the PCG issue was brought up in a thread I started:

http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=109253

...but the thread degenerated into an insult-fest and was closed (at my request).

Ironically, I told people about an older discussion in the thread you've just mentioned, as well... http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1401152&postcount=33

rokstrombo
5th Jun 2010, 11:30
I think it was also mentioned in the recent PC Gamer UK article summarised by Ashpolt that upgrading the strength aug will allow Adam to better handle recoil while shooting, which combined with weapon modifications could be a reasonable compromise.

MaxxQ1
5th Jun 2010, 11:54
All these years and people still have trouble grasping the cross-genre concept behind FPS/RPG-hybrids... *sigh*



Ironically, I told people about an older discussion in the thread you've just mentioned, as well... http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpost.php?p=1401152&postcount=33

Too lazy to check, but you don't suppose that *that* thread points to an even older thread discussing the same thing, do you? :nut:

If the mods merged all similar threads together, the entire site would have, at most, 10 threads <grin>

Bionicicide
5th Jun 2010, 11:55
Alpha Protocol got hammered for stats-based aiming so I hope there isn't any here. Plenty of other areas for stats like weapons or augmentation (I personally hope it's no more in-depth than Dead Space's upgrade system).

Blade_hunter
5th Jun 2010, 11:57
If you can enter into conversation with NPCs, then HR is already a far different (and far better) game than R6 Vegas.

But the whole gameplay is similar under certain aspects, thanks

Gaunt88
5th Jun 2010, 12:14
Alpha Protocol got hammered for stats-based aiming so I hope there isn't any here. Plenty of other areas for stats like weapons or argumentation (I personally hope it's no more in-depth than Dead Space's upgrade system).

Weapon argumentation, eh? No way, there's already way too much of that on this board, thank you ;)

In all seriousness, I'd like to see specific upgrades for weapons. It's the same argument against universal ammo - "Oooh good, a recoil damper, haven't seen one of those before!" vs "Oh, another Upgrade module. Cool, I guess."

Let's also hope that upgrades are visible on the weapons now. I'd like my souped-up silenced scoped spec-ops pistol to look the part =D

Pinky_Powers
5th Jun 2010, 12:48
But the whole gameplay is similar under certain aspects, thanks

Yes. Firefights will play more like Vegas than the original Deus Ex. Which is a great thing, as Deus Ex's gunplay was awful and Vegas' is spectacular. But there is a whole lot more to Deus Ex than its gunplay. And from the sounds of it, Human Revolution holds true to that notion as well.

Bionicicide
5th Jun 2010, 14:36
Weapon argumentation, eh? No way, there's already way too much of that on this board, thank you ;)

In all seriousness, I'd like to see specific upgrades for weapons. It's the same argument against universal ammo - "Oooh good, a recoil damper, haven't seen one of those before!" vs "Oh, another Upgrade module. Cool, I guess."

Let's also hope that upgrades are visible on the weapons now. I'd like my souped-up silenced scoped spec-ops pistol to look the part =D
Doh! Fixed.

I too hope if there are any weapon mods, they are visible (a'la BioShock).

Blade_hunter
5th Jun 2010, 15:08
Well, man mountable scopes and silencers seems to be confirmed.
Now if I remember there is only two upgrades per weapon in Bioshock :scratch:

Pinky_Powers
5th Jun 2010, 15:57
But they looked awesome. :cool:

Flabdomen
5th Jun 2010, 16:07
Weapon proficiency could still be upgradable with this system.

Even though the aim is entirely based on the user, an upgraded weapons skill would guide the bullets toward the targets' heads or other critical parts. If you've ever played GTA4 without auto-aim, you know how hard it is to score head shots and move on. For consoles, though, holy suck. They better be given more sophisticated auto aim.

Combining this with another topic, if you were allowed to harvest NPC augmentations, weapon proficiency skill upgrades would give you a better chance to preserve the aug.

It's not all bad.

Romeo
6th Jun 2010, 00:00
Why don't you use the search-function? This has been discussed already but there's no official answer to this yet. Sounds like stat-based aiming has been removed. A good thing, imo.
I suppose it makes sense. Adam is a trained security agent, after all, but I really liked the RPG elements of the first. They promoted creative thinking early on. I know, I'm the minority... lol

FreedomForever
6th Jun 2010, 02:45
Stat based Aiming is pretty cool IMO.

It makes your actual choices more important. So if you pick snipers then you have too stick with your snipers.

Otherwise you can just pick and choose which is ok but I find it way better choosing your actual skills so your choices are important.

mad_red
6th Jun 2010, 04:27
I can't imagine why people want to get rid of skill-based fighting entirely, just so they can play Deus Ex more like an fps.

I wish Eidos would have just given them enough skill points at the start to remove inaccuracy on their chosen weapon type, and make them work for the rest (like everybody else, or use cheats if you prefer).

beastrn
6th Jun 2010, 04:36
You people will regret saying "imo it's better without stats" when DEHR boils down to a cover based autoaim headshot click n watch like every other modern shooting game. Stats take out the middleman and create a more character driven gameplay. If you can just headshot everyone from the get go because you're not a soccer mom taking care of 3 kids and eating dinner while playing the game then it's just going to be crap.

No learning curve, no difficulty ramp other than "enemies have more health" and "your gun now does more damage" - is that really what you want?

Like the quote says, if the game is designed around just spray and pray (bioshock) then alternative thinking and thus any sense of an actual memorable gaming experience goes flying out the window screaming "ACCESSIBILITY!!!!"

Romeo
6th Jun 2010, 06:04
You people will regret saying "imo it's better without stats" when DEHR boils down to a cover based autoaim headshot click n watch like every other modern shooting game. Stats take out the middleman and create a more character driven gameplay. If you can just headshot everyone from the get go because you're not a soccer mom taking care of 3 kids and eating dinner while playing the game then it's just going to be crap.

No learning curve, no difficulty ramp other than "enemies have more health" and "your gun now does more damage" - is that really what you want?

Like the quote says, if the game is designed around just spray and pray (bioshock) then alternative thinking and thus any sense of an actual memorable gaming experience goes flying out the window screaming "ACCESSIBILITY!!!!"
Ok, I'm sorry, your post seemed a touch... Aimless. Are you bashing non-stat-dependant shooters? Or promoting them?

Because from a story-perspective, which was the thing I loved Deus Ex for in the first place, it makes NO sense to me that JC was a special agent, with augmentations, and yet he had the accuracy of a five-year-old. On the other hand, from a gameplay perspective, I agree with those who are saying that it does remove some of the decision and focus from the player.

-Anyways, to respond to your first point, there's an amazing amount of shooters without auto-aim that arn't stat-based. In fact, I'd go so far as to say auto-aim is more common on shooters WITH stats. Besides, 99% of people acknowledge that combat was not a Deus Ex selling point originally.
-Stats take out the middle-man? The player's talent being this "middle man"? That's probably why many players are opposed to the idea. lol
-Yes. If a player is better at combat than another, they deserve to be rewarded for it. Let them have the option to use combat if they want to, even early on.
-There's learning curves in every FPS, and many of them offer creative problems and solutions other than health and damage. I can literally pick from almost any FPS in history, such as Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Halo, Battlefield... Besides, hate to break this to you, but typically the weapons you found later in Deus Ex did more damage, and the enemies became harder to kill...
-Don't confuse decent combat and spray and pray. As I already said, it shouldn't be a goal of the game to have poor combat. Frankly, Deus Ex was "spray and pray" in the beginning as the player lacked sufficient accuracy for precision shooting.

Pinky_Powers
6th Jun 2010, 06:23
^----- amen brother!

Wizard1200
6th Jun 2010, 07:02
Well, it would if it were an RPG. Player skill isn't character skill, as you're 'pretending' to be the guy in the game. And most likely they'd just use reticule spread like DX or RS, rather than forcing you to combat wobble. Shame that they did that, but I guess it makes more accessible.

I would prefer that the combat abilities depend on the character stats, too, because if those are seperated everything else (stealth, hacking, conversations, ...) could be seperated, too, and that would turn DX 3 in a standard shooter.

I think Alpha Protocol is a very good example for combat abilities, that are based on the player skill and the character stats, because you can hit exactly where you aim, but if you want to perform special attacks your character stats are important.

JCpies
6th Jun 2010, 07:05
Okay i will tell you, weapons' accuracy and usability are still governed by stats. Don't worry this isn't a Deus Ex game, but it looks damn good.

Pinky_Powers
6th Jun 2010, 07:09
I think Alpha Protocol is a very good example for combat abilities, that are based on the player skill and the character stats, because you can hit exactly where you aim, but if you want to perform special attacks your character stats are important.

Unless I'm mistaken, that's precisely what we'll have in Human Revolution. There are Augs and upgrades that you can use for Stealth, Computer Hacking, Social Hacking and... Combat. But your basic aiming and gun-handling is rock solid.

Wizard1200
6th Jun 2010, 07:11
Unless I'm mistaken, that's precisely what we'll have in Human Revolution. There are Augs and upgrades that you can use for Stealth, Computer Hacking, Social Hacking and... Combat. But your basic aiming and gun-handling is rock solid.

That would be great, but i got the feeling that could not be the case.

beastrn
6th Jun 2010, 07:25
Ok, I'm sorry, your post seemed a touch... Aimless. Are you bashing non-stat-dependant shooters? Or promoting them?

Because from a story-perspective, which was the thing I loved Deus Ex for in the first place, it makes NO sense to me that JC was a special agent, with augmentations, and yet he had the accuracy of a five-year-old. On the other hand, from a gameplay perspective, I agree with those who are saying that it does remove some of the decision and focus from the player.

-Anyways, to respond to your first point, there's an amazing amount of shooters without auto-aim that arn't stat-based. In fact, I'd go so far as to say auto-aim is more common on shooters WITH stats. Besides, 99% of people acknowledge that combat was not a Deus Ex selling point originally.
-Stats take out the middle-man? The player's talent being this "middle man"? That's probably why many players are opposed to the idea. lol
-Yes. If a player is better at combat than another, they deserve to be rewarded for it. Let them have the option to use combat if they want to, even early on.
-There's learning curves in every FPS, and many of them offer creative problems and solutions other than health and damage. I can literally pick from almost any FPS in history, such as Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Halo, Battlefield... Besides, hate to break this to you, but typically the weapons you found later in Deus Ex did more damage, and the enemies became harder to kill...
-Don't confuse decent combat and spray and pray. As I already said, it shouldn't be a goal of the game to have poor combat. Frankly, Deus Ex was "spray and pray" in the beginning as the player lacked sufficient accuracy for precision shooting.

I think you may have midread my post because we seem to be arguing the same thing, although from different perspectives. With that in mind I'll respond to each line;


Ok, I'm sorry, your post seemed a touch... Aimless. Are you bashing non-stat-dependant shooters? Or promoting them?

I'm not "bashing" either. I'm saying that as far as Deus Ex goes, removing stats and accuracy % and crosshair wavering it will only help to make the game easier, stupider, and based around "her her I made the guy go flying" thought processes as opposed to actually thinking about improving stats or taking risks.


Because from a story-perspective, which was the thing I loved Deus Ex for in the first place, it makes NO sense to me that JC was a special agent, with augmentations, and yet he had the accuracy of a five-year-old. On the other hand, from a gameplay perspective, I agree with those who are saying that it does remove some of the decision and focus from the player.

Sure.


-Anyways, to respond to your first point, there's an amazing amount of shooters without auto-aim that arn't stat-based. In fact, I'd go so far as to say auto-aim is more common on shooters WITH stats. Besides, 99% of people acknowledge that combat was not a Deus Ex selling point originally.

Please name an amazing amount of shooters that don't have auto-aim. Please. Go ahead. Keep in mind that this is 2010 and DEHR is a modern console game - so if you can name even 3 modern console shooters that don't have auto-aim I'll swiftly apologize. Fact is, there aren't. My point is if it's on console it will be designed around auto aim and big AOE weapons and standing still enemies, etc.


-Stats take out the middle-man? The player's talent being this "middle man"? That's probably why many players are opposed to the idea. lol

Yes, the player actually having to do something themselves instead of moving the reticule to the big red enemy and pressing RT until they fall over. Yes, I'm opposed to that. I want to have a CHALLENGE.


-Yes. If a player is better at combat than another, they deserve to be rewarded for it. Let them have the option to use combat if they want to, even early on.

Right. Though the "reward" needs to actually be something a good player actually wants. These days being "better" means absolutely nothing besides "winning" quicker. It needs to mean something.


-There's learning curves in every FPS, and many of them offer creative problems and solutions other than health and damage. I can literally pick from almost any FPS in history, such as Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Halo, Battlefield... Besides, hate to break this to you, but typically the weapons you found later in Deus Ex did more damage, and the enemies became harder to kill..

Although I disagree with you (Halo? Gets more difficult besides more health enemies? Surely you jest) I'm talking MODERN gaming. You know, accessible, never-fail, easy enough that special 'lil Larry with one arm can still complete it on hardest? Unless you actually think DEHR will be anything like older shooters that were actually good... psshffwwt!


-Don't confuse decent combat and spray and pray. As I already said, it shouldn't be a goal of the game to have poor combat. Frankly, Deus Ex was "spray and pray" in the beginning as the player lacked sufficient accuracy for precision shooting.

Wrong. Deus Ex wasn't spray and pray :\ it scares me that you actually think that. ESPECIALLY in the beginning Deux Ex was very precise and very risk/reward. If you sprayed you wasted precious ammo. You alerted guards. Your accuracy would bottom out. You had to be very click click click to compensate for your terrible stat-based accuracy. It was ANYTHING BUT the console based spray and pray of todays games where all you need to do is hold down the trigger and spam around because you never have a care in the world - even if you take damage you just hide for a second and you're 100% again. Crazy, isn't it?

Pinky_Powers
6th Jun 2010, 07:47
The bottom line is, a trained field agent representing the premier bad-ass of UNATCO should not have trouble hitting his targets with any weapon. There's a lot of things that can be upgraded and modified throughout the game, but basic weapon handling should not be one of them for a well trained soldier.

FreedomForever
6th Jun 2010, 09:48
Allthough it does make sense that a Super Soldier guy shouldn't have a problem shooting people.

and it seems that augs are in and skills are out.

I still want to be aug specials that help you with actual weapons. I think somebody said these are already included...also weapons mods that I think are included.

Anyways I think the perfect solution will be that weapons have a bunch of recoil etc like in real life...make it "sort" of realistic.

Before you guys say "he is a supersoldier"....even the elite soldiers have problem shooting, it takes a bunch of skill.

This will fix the problem by making actual skilled players get head shots...make those 30 rounds u have left count etc...so skilled players actually get rewarded.....players who don't have that much skill and have trouble will also notice the huge difference augs/skills/and weapon mods give, so these improvements will be a hard choice for players to make and important one which is a big immersion factor.

This will be a happy medium solution/realistic/immersion solution for people saying "Accuracy is too hard with Skill" and "Aiming will be way to easy without it".

This system will make so much sense since...you would actually see a "real" difference compared to the augs/weapon mods.....and a bigger diffrence if weapon skills are in game again.

Gaunt88
6th Jun 2010, 09:53
Snip.

I had an elaborate reply to your post writen out, but I decided not to bother. You seem to be convinced that all modern console shooters are AI-less shooting galleries with unlimited ammo and paper-mache bad guys, and I don't think anything I say is going to make a difference.

Anyway, there are more ways to make the game harder without a stat system than just having more/tougher enemies.

Blade_hunter
6th Jun 2010, 11:00
That's a relation of the damage you can take, and even weapon efficiency.
If you are fragile or your weapons aren't very efficient, then the game can be very hard.

Yeah I mention efficiency because there is a lot of factors that can make a weapons efficient or not even when they are managed by a dynamic aim (expandable crosshair that shows the current accuracy).
Personally, my opinion is just will remove some RPG elements from the game, now I'm not against and I'm not fully with.
I mean Deus Ex can come with a great stat based system even if in reality that's a combination of the two.
To me the combat will be "streamlined" in therms of gunfights and that's not because of the removal of the stats from the combats.

If I remember ME1 had stats for the combat, no :scratch: ?

beastrn
6th Jun 2010, 11:27
I had an elaborate reply to your post writen out, but I decided not to bother. You seem to be convinced that all modern console shooters are AI-less shooting galleries with unlimited ammo and paper-mache bad guys, and I don't think anything I say is going to make a difference.


More like you had an elaborate reply written out then realized everything you said was a load of crap and decided not to "bother".


Anyway, there are more ways to make the game harder without a stat system than just having more/tougher enemies.

Of course. Though your options are very limited when your target audience is a bunch of barely literate beer guzzling idiots.

Prove me wrong, Eidos!

JackShandy
6th Jun 2010, 11:34
Yes, the player actually having to do something themselves instead of moving the reticule to the big red enemy and pressing RT until they fall over. Yes, I'm opposed to that. I want to have a CHALLENGE.

Having the stats arbitrarily make aiming harder does technically increase the challenge, but honestly- it's fake difficulty. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty)

I think there's a misconception that letting the player aim well will make the game easier. Here's a good line I once heard:

It's better to play as a skilled character completing complex tasks than to play as a useless character completing simple ones.

That means that, as a general rule, it is better to play as an incredibly accurate hotshot taking down a ton of enemies than it is to play as early-game JC struggling to aim well enough to take down a single terrorist. A pretty obvious point, really. Not to mention that the impossible aiming really drives away first-time players (And yes, I understand this seems to be a target group that no-one wants Eidos to think about at all).

Gaunt88
6th Jun 2010, 11:42
That's a relation of the damage you can take, and even weapon efficiency.
If you are fragile or your weapons aren't very efficient, then the game can be very hard.

Yeah I mention efficiency because there is a lot of factors that can make a weapons efficient or not even when they are managed by a dynamic aim (expandable crosshair that shows the current accuracy).
Personally, my opinion is just will remove some RPG elements from the game, now I'm not against and I'm not fully with.
I mean Deus Ex can come with a great stat based system even if in reality that's a combination of the two.
To me the combat will be "streamlined" in therms of gunfights and that's not because of the removal of the stats from the combats.

If I remember ME1 had stats for the combat, no :scratch: ?

Yep, for both weapon accuracy/damage/rate of fire and your own accuracy & damage. While the game's combat was enjoyable, it ran into the same problem - at early levels, your elite special-operations veteran PC couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. At least you could counteract it somewhat by finding/buying better weapons. In DX you can't do that, since there's only one version of each type of weapon.

I guess that's just one of the things you have to ignore in games like DX and ME (games where your character is supposed to be a soldier or expert as opposed to a complete newbie like in Fable or Fallout). Willing suspension of disbelief and all that.


Having the stats arbitrarily make aiming harder does technically increase the challenge, but honestly- it's fake difficulty. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty)

I think there's a misconception that letting the player aim well will make the game easier. Here's a good line I once heard:

It's better to play as a skilled character completing complex tasks than to play as a useless character completing simple ones.

That means that, as a general rule, it is better to play as an incredibly accurate hotshot taking down a ton of enemies than it is to play as early-game JC struggling to aim well enough to take down a single terrorist. A pretty obvious point, really. Not to mention that the impossible aiming really drives away first-time players (And yes, I understand this seems to be a target group that no-one wants Eidos to think about at all).

QFT. Also, greetings, fellow Troper! :wave:

mad_red
6th Jun 2010, 11:57
It's better to play as a skilled character completing complex tasks than to play as a useless character completing simple ones

That means that, as a general rule, it is better to play as an incredibly accurate hotshot taking down a ton of enemies than it is to play as early-game JC struggling to aim well enough to take down a single terrorist. A pretty obvious point, really. Not to mention that the impossible aiming really drives away first-time players (And yes, I understand this seems to be a target group that no-one wants Eidos to think about at all).

You're missing the point. If I spend all my skillpoints on non-weapon skills, that means I CHOOSE to make combat harder. It will be harder and less fun to fight that terrorist head on, but that's because I choose the stealth approach. Being spotted and surviving a hard fight with bad aim is a different type of 'fun'.

First-time players should see a hint about inaccuracy and weapon skills, or alternatively, start with a pre-made character who can shoot a pistol accurately.

Also, "special agent" does not equal "super geeksoldier", even in a counter-terrorist organization.

Ulysses
6th Jun 2010, 12:11
I don't see what's wrong about a "special agent" actually having to aim his shots, waiting for the reticule to narrow in game or what have you. Easy to design too, just give the player enough skill points or whatever before any combat situation that they can get a proficiency in one weapon. Would be boring if your character is a badass at minute 1, can use any weapon with excellent proficiency.

Philljc
6th Jun 2010, 12:28
Jesus christ.

Removing stats based aiming, adding health regeneration (not tied to an Augmentation), adding a cover system, making it a generic piece of ***.

####THIS IS WHY DEUS EX 2 SUCKED####

Why change any of the core features that made Deus Ex great? It was regarded as one of the best games of all time for a reason. For what reason would you want to change anything, rather than just develop on what you have with a decent story? Well, let's face it, there is only one reason. Accessibility for controllers, stupid kids, and console users who need everything done for them. I suppose next we can add damage stats and multipliers on the screen like in Borderlands? Or some other ego boosting bull*** that detracts from engaging gameplay that extends far beyond turning your 360 on then having a snooze while the game finishes itself.

Gone are the days where you actually have to think. Are you taking this post as an insult? Well you should, to keep encouraging this type of over simplification is moronic, there are literally about 3 games left that haven't joined the mainstream *gaming*crowd.

Back when Deus ex was made it was made for gamers, now games are made for casual nimrods, with an experience that is streamlined across every single game so they don't get confuzzled. FFS.

SageSavage
6th Jun 2010, 12:36
Ahh... the long awaited return of the angry internetman! Excellent!

MaxxQ1
6th Jun 2010, 12:40
Jesus christ.

Removing stats based aiming, adding health regeneration (not tied to an Augmentation), adding a cover system, making it a generic piece of ***.

####THIS IS WHY DEUS EX 2 SUCKED####

Why change any of the core features that made Deus Ex great? It was regarded as one of the best games of all time for a reason. For what reason would you want to change anything, rather than just develop on what you have with a decent story? Well, let's face it, there is only one reason. Accessibility for controllers, stupid kids, and console users who need everything done for them. I suppose next we can add damage stats and multipliers on the screen like in Borderlands? Or some other ego boosting bull*** that detracts from engaging gameplay that extends far beyond turning your 360 on then having a snooze while the game finishes itself.

Gone are the days where you actually have to think. Are you taking this post as an insult? Well you should, to keep encouraging this type of over simplification is moronic, there are literally about 3 games left that haven't joined the mainstream *gaming*crowd.

Back when Deus ex was made it was made for gamers, now games are made for casual nimrods, with an experience that is streamlined across every single game so they don't get confuzzled. FFS.

[David Byrne]same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was[/David Byrne]

And before you yell at me for defending those decisions, I'm only just poking fun at your expense because you're not saying anything that hasn't already been discussed ad nauseum over the past 2 years.

Philljc
6th Jun 2010, 12:50
Ahh... the long awaited return of the angry internetman! Excellent!

Ah, the not wanted obligatory *look at me I have nothing to say* post, there's always one of you little *** kickers sticking your nose in. This is where you now try and come up with something of substance, or brush it off because you have nothing interesting to say.

Spector is a fool for ever letting this slip into anyone elses hands. But hey I guess dimwits like you need something to do hey?


And before you yell at me for defending those decisions, I'm only just poking fun at your expense because you're not saying anything that hasn't already been discussed ad nauseum over the past 2 years.

Perhaps they would stop being said if we had some assurance that this game wasn't being molested again for the sake of money, because you know, a few million in profit isn't enough. It's actually the opposite of everything Deus ex stands for if you read everything in the game and the general undertone.

But hey let's not let the prime example of what this game should be get in the way. I like gunz, I can auto-aimz with ma controller! hurr durr!

SageSavage
6th Jun 2010, 12:57
This is where you now try and come up with something of substance, or brush it off because you have nothing interesting to say.
Nah, this where I go and make myself a nice cup of coffee. Maybe you should use a more appropriate thread for telling us about your personal frustrations.
I suggest this one: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=86078&page=10

MaxxQ1
6th Jun 2010, 13:00
Ah, the not wanted obligatory *look at me I have nothing to say* post, there's always one of you little *** kickers sticking your nose in. This is where you now try and come up with something of substance, or brush it off because you have nothing interesting to say.

Spector is a fool for ever letting this slip into anyone elses hands. But hey I guess dimwits like you need something to do hey?



Perhaps they would stop being said if we had some assurance that this game wasn't being molested again for the sake of money, because you know, a few million in profit isn't enough. It's actually the opposite of everything Deus ex stands for if you read everything in the game and the general undertone.

But hey let's not let the prime example of what this game should be get in the way. I like gunz, I can auto-aimz with ma controller! hurr durr!

[Bill Murray] Lighten up, Francis [/Bill Murray]

It was simply a joke and there's no need to be childish and insulting. Most of the other peeps who've made the same comments present their arguments well, without resorting to name-calling.

So, chill dude.

beastrn
6th Jun 2010, 13:04
>This is where you now try and come up with something of substance, or brush it off because you have nothing interesting to say.
>>Nah, this where I go and make myself a nice cup of coffee.

>or brush it off because you have nothing interesting to say.
>>I go and make myself a nice cup of coffee.

>brush it off because you have nothing
>>I go and make myself

>brush it off
>>I go and

>off
>>I go

Seeya -=fox=-! *wave*

MaxxQ1
6th Jun 2010, 13:05
^^^I see what you did there.

SageSavage
6th Jun 2010, 13:07
You got me there, I guess.

El_Bel
6th Jun 2010, 13:27
Last night MiB's raid my brothers apartment. He that he would hold them off.. To run.. There was no chance i was going to leave him. I took out my shotgun and i put on my ballistic armor. I was more then trained with both of them. With a thought i activated my ballistic protection augmentation and i felt my skin tightening. After a hard battle we decided that we would go out the front door. There a small army of UNATCO troopers expected us. I was a bit down on medkits, so i decided not to waste them on my hands. I found hard to aim from a comfortable distance(!) so i activated my Running augmentation so i could get at point-blank range(!!!!). After this battle i decided to clear the streets.

Well at the last 2 guards i had no Medkits and my hands and one of my legs were blown off. They were just two guards but i couldnt aim for ****! According to some of you guys and of course the developers, this was a bad thing! Well it was not. First of all i was careless. I made some stupid mistakes and the lasting consequences for my combat decisions brought me at this place, not bad game design. Second it is supposed to be one of the hardest battles in the game. Third it was immersive. I crawled (not literaly) my ass at the bar and i half expected Shea to tell me "You look like ****". I started drinking everything and she told me that she thought i had enough. The image it created on my mind was that i was at a bar, shot to pieces and i got drunk, trying to kill the pain. I felt sorry for poor old JC. And then there was the actual combat. There was no way i was going to leave those guys breathing! I tried everything. Everytime they killed me i reloaded. They were just 2 troops, but they were harder then a boss for me at the moment, because i couldnt aim for ****! And why should i be able to aim? Why does it matter that i can move my mouse, when my character has more 7.62×51mm bullets in his arms then i have teeth? This is drama on its best. Like the scene in terminator 2 where Shara shot T-1000 with one hand! I had to think smart if i was going to get past this (i could take out my GEP gun of course, but i didnt feel like doing it). I threw some **** at one direction and they turned to look at it. I crawled behind one, i activated Speed and Ballistic augs, shot one guy in the head and run to the other one. Shot my head, leaving me at 7 life, while i shot him in the head leaving him dead.

I then gone back to NSF HQ and healed. Then i took the subway, made Gunther follow me below and i destroyed the army topside without any Medkit left. Just strategy.

Blade_hunter
6th Jun 2010, 13:33
This one doesn't disturb me; even if I prefer it with some stats, well that's why the Combo RPG/FPS is made for.
But to me there is much more worrisome features than the stats removal from combat in this game

In DX we aren't an expert soldier, we are a nano augmented agent that evolve through the game.
JC is pretty much not an expert, since his first mission is the Liberty Island, he gain experience to be better.
I know that the Aiming system was poorly calibrated in the original DX, I think it could be way better.

The fact that DX separated the combat stats wasn't made without any sense, weapons aren't the same
And there is at least 4 weapons on each category.

FrankCSIS
6th Jun 2010, 13:54
Because from a story-perspective, which was the thing I loved Deus Ex for in the first place, it makes NO sense to me that JC was a special agent, with augmentations, and yet he had the accuracy of a five-year-old. On the other hand, from a gameplay perspective, I agree with those who are saying that it does remove some of the decision and focus from the player.

There has to be a happy medium between the frustrating "unable to shoot" early-game setting vs no stats at all. I know it makes little sense that you can't shoot for *****, especially after being told by JC himself that he's done so much drilling he wants to hit the field. At the same time though, El Bel hit the big problem with player-based aiming only, ie the character's habilities, without any skill system, are never affected by the events of the game. It's not normal, for any shooting game that pretends to be realistic or wishes to be taken seriously, for the player to be able to shoot as quickly and as accurately after being shot at as much as Murphy got hit before he became Robocop. People mentioned immersion a lot, this is a big chunk of it right there.

Couldn't we eliminate the training levels, but keep a stats record running in the background compiling where and when the player gets shot, and use it to affect combat reaction and skills?

Philologus
6th Jun 2010, 14:45
You got me there, I guess.

A lobotomized cockroach could have outsmarted you.

This is a thread concerning the soul of a beloved game. People who are passionate about playing games with depth both in gameplay and story, would like to see most of the elements that made Deus Ex an unforgettable experience, remain intact. No doubt, such details fall on deaf ears when spoken to the current generation of gamers, who have been subject to the mass-marketization of gaming. My genre is RPGs. Modern day RPGs are certainly more aesthetically pleasing, but quite frankly, the general depth of most is sorely lacking. Games such as NVN2 and Oblivion are held as paragons of achievement, when in fact there are RPGs from the 80s and 90s that blow them both away in terms of gameplay and story. Daggerfall was far better than Oblivion, because Daggerfall was an in-depth RPG, rather than an RPG-lite that provided gameplay mechanics that a chimp could master. "Click and slash over and over!" NVN2 was about as free-flowing as the most linear JRPG anyone could name, with a storyline that was about as innovative as the concept of prostitution. These are just two examples. I could also point to the "rape" of Fallout as another example.

But obviously, this conversation doesn't apply to you. Go back to your "day job", which surely includes vacillation between self-flagellating to Justin Bieber songs while watching Naruto on Cartoon Network, and FINALLY trying to master using the toilet.. at the tender young age of 14. (And hey, if you manage to do that, you'll be able to keep your Iron Man underoos free of skid-marks)

beastrn
6th Jun 2010, 14:52
A lobotomized cockroach could have outsmarted you.

This is a thread concerning the soul of a beloved game. People who are passionate about playing games with depth both in gameplay and story, would like to see most of the elements that made Deus Ex an unforgettable experience, remain intact. No doubt, such details fall on deaf ears when spoken to the current generation of gamers, who have been subject to the mass-marketization of gaming. My genre is RPGs. Modern day RPGs are certainly more aesthetically pleasing, but quite frankly, the general depth of most is sorely lacking. Games such as NVN2 and Oblivion are held as paragons of achievement, when in fact there are RPGs from the 80s and 90s that blow them both away in terms of gameplay and story. Daggerfall was far better than Oblivion, because Daggerfall was an in-depth RPG, rather than an RPG-lite that provided gameplay mechanics that a chimp could master. "Click and slash over and over!" NVN2 was about as free-flowing as the most linear JRPG anyone could name, with a storyline that was about as innovative as the concept of prostitution. These are just two examples. I could also point to the "rape" of Fallout as another example.

But obviously, this conversation doesn't apply to you. Go back to your "day job", which surely includes vacillation between self-flagellating to Justin Bieber songs while watching Naruto on Cartoon Network, and FINALLY trying to master using the toilet.. at the tender young age of 14. (And hey, if you manage to do that, you'll be able to keep your Iron Man underoos free of skid-marks)

Sometimes you think you're going crazy. Then someone posts something like that.

You are now my new best friend.

Sabretooth1
6th Jun 2010, 14:58
A lobotomized cockroach could have outsmarted you.

This is a thread concerning the soul of a beloved game. People who are passionate about playing games with depth both in gameplay and story, would like to see most of the elements that made Deus Ex an unforgettable experience, remain intact. No doubt, such details fall on deaf ears when spoken to the current generation of gamers, who have been subject to the mass-marketization of gaming. My genre is RPGs. Modern day RPGs are certainly more aesthetically pleasing, but quite frankly, the general depth of most is sorely lacking. Games such as NVN2 and Oblivion are held as paragons of achievement, when in fact there are RPGs from the 80s and 90s that blow them both away in terms of gameplay and story. Daggerfall was far better than Oblivion, because Daggerfall was an in-depth RPG, rather than an RPG-lite that provided gameplay mechanics that a chimp could master. "Click and slash over and over!" NVN2 was about as free-flowing as the most linear JRPG anyone could name, with a storyline that was about as innovative as the concept of prostitution. These are just two examples. I could also point to the "rape" of Fallout as another example.

But obviously, this conversation doesn't apply to you. Go back to your "day job", which surely includes vacillation between self-flagellating to Justin Bieber songs while watching Naruto on Cartoon Network, and FINALLY trying to master using the toilet.. at the tender young age of 14. (And hey, if you manage to do that, you'll be able to keep your Iron Man underoos free of skid-marks)

Is there a factory that churns out more and more of you guys?

I'm gonna back up Fox on this, for no particular reason. Firstly, NWN2 is far from the paragon of achievement, if you look at the reviews that fired it for its bugginess and outdatedness. I think a better example of overrated RPG-ness would be Mass Effect, or Dragon Age. I doubt if you've even played a JRPG... but seeing your penchant for unabashed exaggerations, I'm willing to take your comment on NWN2 at null value. Agreed more or less with Fallout, though.

And the mass-marketization of games, ah yes... Because games like Deus Ex were released by well-wishing developers to a small cabal of friends, who then passed the copies to friends, and so on? In case you were brain-dead during the time the game was released, it was a mass-marketed product, published by Eidos.

If you're saying that straight-shooting instead of stats-based is limited to the current generation though, then I'm afraid you're ignoring a rather insignificant crowd that played rather unknown games like Doom, Unreal, Unreal Tournament, Quake, Half-Life, Medal of Honor, Jedi Knight, on and on. Deus Ex's experiment with stats-based shooting may have been good, but at a time with weak AI, a straight-out shooter would have made the developer's life much harder, in terms of balancing the gameplay options.

Today, AI is much more advanced. If you've played Far Cry (I don't know about Crysis), then you'll know that a vulnerable protagonist and an intelligent AI can make for a great non-stats-based-shooter that still requires lots of technique, skill and strategy.

SageSavage
6th Jun 2010, 15:01
They breed. Something must be done... *twirls beard" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLhvFSmhGC0&feature=related)

IOOI
6th Jun 2010, 15:18
The bottom line is, a trained field agent representing the premier bad-ass of UNATCO should not have trouble hitting his targets with any weapon. There's a lot of things that can be upgraded and modified throughout the game, but basic weapon handling should not be one of them for a well trained soldier.

Peculiarly, Adam shouldn't have great weapon handling from the beggining of the game since he just received augmentations (he was all pure human before) - he's not used to them yet. He should have a long period of adaptation no? :hmm:

Philologus
6th Jun 2010, 15:35
Is there a factory that churns out more and more of you guys?

I'm gonna back up Fox on this, for no particular reason. Firstly, NWN2 is far from the paragon of achievement, if you look at the reviews that fired it for its bugginess and outdatedness. I think a better example of overrated RPG-ness would be Mass Effect, or Dragon Age. I doubt if you've even played a JRPG... but seeing your penchant for unabashed exaggerations, I'm willing to take your comment on NWN2 at null value. Agreed more or less with Fallout, though.

And the mass-marketization of games, ah yes... Because games like Deus Ex were released by well-wishing developers to a small cabal of friends, who then passed the copies to friends, and so on? In case you were brain-dead during the time the game was released, it was a mass-marketed product, published by Eidos.

If you're saying that straight-shooting instead of stats-based is limited to the current generation though, then I'm afraid you're ignoring a rather insignificant crowd that played rather unknown games like Doom, Unreal, Unreal Tournament, Quake, Half-Life, Medal of Honor, Jedi Knight, on and on. Deus Ex's experiment with stats-based shooting may have been good, but at a time with weak AI, a straight-out shooter would have made the developer's life much harder, in terms of balancing the gameplay options.

Today, AI is much more advanced. If you've played Far Cry (I don't know about Crysis), then you'll know that a vulnerable protagonist and an intelligent AI can make for a great non-stats-based-shooter that still requires lots of technique, skill and strategy.

Sabretooth, I can't say for sure, but I am willing to bet good hard money that I've played more RPGs than anyone on this forum. Among the early ones I remember off the top of my head include the original Wizardry, Ultima, Temple of Apshai, Questron, Magic Candle and the goes on. As for JRPGs? Don't even get me started. I prefer PC RPGs any day of the week, but JRPGs, for the most part, are a different subset that require a great story (IMO), more than their counterparts. Many JRPG stories have been incredibly enjoyable, and completely masked deficiencies. One shining example would be Xenogears.

As for your absurdity about Deus Ex? Please, try again. ANY game is made with the idea of making money. The difference with Deus Ex is that those who made it wanted more from the product, than just money.

I'm not saying that "straight-shooting" is limited to the current generation. I loved playing Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem and that ilk. Heck, I even enjoyed a game called Strife, back in the day, which I feel was a somewhat a spiritual predecessor to Deus Ex (although far less satisfying in every way). I still like playing that type of game to break up the occasional monotony involved with playing an in-depth RPG.

IOOI
6th Jun 2010, 15:44
Yep, for both weapon accuracy/damage/rate of fire and your own accuracy & damage. While the game's combat was enjoyable, it ran into the same problem - at early levels, your elite special-operations veteran PC couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. At least you could counteract it somewhat by finding/buying better weapons. In DX you can't do that, since there's only one version of each type of weapon.




In DX we aren't an expert soldier, we are a nano augmented agent that evolve through the game.
JC is pretty much not an expert, since his first mission is the Liberty Island, he gain experience to be better.
I know that the Aiming system was poorly calibrated in the original DX, I think it could be way better.

The fact that DX separated the combat stats wasn't made without any sense, weapons aren't the same

And we had weapon modifications (http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Weapon_Modifications). Remember!? ;)


And there is at least 4 weapons on each category.

Yes you're right Blade. Here are the weapons (http://www.gamebanshee.com/deusex/weapons.php). :)

mad_red
6th Jun 2010, 15:56
Firstly, NWN2 is far from the paragon of achievement, if you look at the reviews that fired it for its bugginess and outdatedness.

If reviewers were critical of the graphics and how smooth the game runs, other things, such as depth of gameplay, story, etc., were apperently good enough for them.

Also, skill-based fighting adds individuality of the protagonist. It's called role-playing: your character has the skills you imagine him to have, and his preferred methods of actions can imply things about his personality and life experiences. This adds more depth of personality than augs and weapon upgrades alone could.

Yeah I'm sorry this constant righteous indignation tiresome, but i think these guys are new here. (Ya'll look new...) Cut their righteous knee-jerk a break.

Pinky_Powers
6th Jun 2010, 16:02
Peculiarly, Adam shouldn't have great weapon handling from the beggining of the game since he just received augmentations (he was all pure human before) - he's not used to them yet. He should have a long period of adaptation no? :hmm:

lol. That's certainly one way to look at it. :thumb:

Philologus
6th Jun 2010, 16:31
Sometimes you think you're going crazy. Then someone posts something like that.

You are now my new best friend.
Hey, it’s not a problem. You and I are not crazy; we just want more than the typical experience that many present day games offer. I like and play console games, but “consolization” which goes hand-in-hand with mass-market gaming, has served to the detriment of our enjoyment.
Of course, these threads generally revolve around Deus Ex with peripheral conversation about the underpinnings of great games. Back when I was a kid, and the number of gamers and games released per year was (at least seemingly) far fewer than what we see today, I hypothesize that developers had far more leeway with respect to personal creativity than today. There has been an obvious trade-off since then that has come with the popularization of gaming: looks (graphics) and advertising for substance.
It has been mentioned multiple times in this forum.. the current generation of gamers consists of too many clueless, who have subsisted on mediocre games. It was something inevitable

Brockxz
6th Jun 2010, 16:45
-Don't confuse decent combat and spray and pray. As I already said, it shouldn't be a goal of the game to have poor combat. Frankly, Deus Ex was "spray and pray" in the beginning as the player lacked sufficient accuracy for precision shooting.
Spray and pray? :mad2: What were you playing? Deus Ex was all about careful approach at start. You stayed in shadows, aimed and made one shot one kill. That's how i was playing it and it was great gameplay experience. Deus Ex never was a shooter and Eidos and most of forum members seems still confuse what Deus Ex is. If i want to play shooter, i better play CoD, Halo etc not Deus Ex. But i want to play Deus Ex and i don't want that Deus Ex is just another run and gun game with some meaningless RPG stats or augments.
OK, it is still early to say what Eidos will deliver (there is no 100% info how the shooting will be) but i hope it will give me stealth gameplay and non lethal approach then i will not care if shooting is skill/augment or whatever based. I want to complete game without killing any human (robots, animals etc don 't count :rasp:)

Blade_hunter
6th Jun 2010, 16:50
99% tells that would be like R6V with some minor tweaks

Sabretooth1
6th Jun 2010, 17:22
such as depth of gameplay, story, etc., were apperently good enough for them.

Well, it wasn't a bad story, but it could barely stand up to the greats made by the same creators, like Planescape: Torment, or KotOR II. I thought it was too BioWarean, and by that definition, rather dull. The expansion Mask of the Betrayer on the other hand, had a brilliant story.

As for gameplay, it was a hardcore D&D game, I don't think there are roleplaying games with more complex (or complicated) gameplay than a D&D game.

Pinky_Powers
6th Jun 2010, 17:34
For me, the pinnacle of RPGs was the first Knights of the Old Republic. It was the perfect balance of complexity and fluidity. The story was amazing. The conversation system was innovative and industry-changing. The characters were deep and memorable. Simply the very best the genre has produced.

Philologus
6th Jun 2010, 17:37
Well, it wasn't a bad story, but it could barely stand up to the greats made by the same creators, like Planescape: Torment, or KotOR II. I thought it was too BioWarean, and by that definition, rather dull. The expansion Mask of the Betrayer on the other hand, had a brilliant story.

As for gameplay, it was a hardcore D&D game, I don't think there are roleplaying games with more complex (or complicated) gameplay than a D&D game.

Completely agree about MOB.. great game. When reviews compared it to Planescape, I was skeptical, but it was a pleasurable experience (despite retaining the same, limited mechanics of NVN2)

As for complexity? Yes, the pen&paper game can be very complex. But the CRPG? Give me a break.. one shining example, the Ultima VII's (Black Gate and Serpent's Isle) were more complex. The story was better, the random encounters, dialogue trees, (relative) non-linearity.. not even close.

Philologus
6th Jun 2010, 17:39
For me, the pinnacle of RPGs was the first Knights of the Old Republic. It was the perfect balance of complexity and fluidity. The story was amazing. The conversation system was innovative and industry-changing. The characters were deep and memorable. Simply the very best the genre has produced.

KOTR was a good game. But "industry changing" is a fallacious term to use here. No, it wasn't, it had been done before, although perhaps not in the exact same way (and your statements helps prove my point about the generational knowledge gap).

Pinky_Powers
6th Jun 2010, 17:48
KOTR was a good game. But "industry changing" is a fallacious term to use here. No, it wasn't, it had been done before, although perhaps not in the exact same way (and your statements helps prove my point about the generational knowledge gap).

You're twisting what I said into something it wasn't. It was the conversation system I said was "industry changing". And "industry changing" does not mean "never done before". It was the brilliant execution within a high-selling product that caught so many people's attention. And it was due to that package that the system has caught on and evolved. That makes it industry changing.

Philologus
6th Jun 2010, 17:52
You're twisting what I said into something it wasn't. It was the conversation system I said was "industry changing". And "industry changing" does not mean "never done before". It was the brilliant execution within a high-selling product that caught so many people's attention. And it was due to that package that the system has caught on and evolved. That makes it industry changing.

Pinky, maybe other take that term to mean something less striking, but when someone says "industry changing", I think of a game with impact on the order of Doom, when it first came out.

Anyway, my apologies for misinterpreting your statement.

rashal
6th Jun 2010, 17:54
Aiming in DX was absurd.

In the first liberty island mission it took me around 20 second to get a special agent to aim for a head shot from 3 meters away. No matter how you defend it, this makes no sense. As a shooting instructor I can tell you for sure that half the people I teach (those with no prior experience with handguns) can get a headshot on a paper target from 5 meters away in less than 5 seconds (including pulling out the handgun from the holster and cocking) after just one day of practice without much trouble.

The solution? Well, read this and tell me what you think -

Shooting skills based on stats should still be there, along with another parameter which is the amount of stress Adam is underl. The skills levels are:

Level 1 - BASIC

Weapon handling and maintenance
1) Adam knows how the weapon works, can maintain the weapon on a low level (cleaning and replacing major broken parts)
2) can change magazines and fix jams as they occur.
3)High stress effects the speed in which Adam reloads and fixes jams (shaky hands make it problematic to insert magazines and cocking the weapon).

Aiming
1) Adam knows the basics of aiming the weapon, but it takes him a while to align the sights with his eyes (aim down sights). Also after each shot it takes the shooter a while to reacquire the sights, this will be more difficult as the rate of fire increases.
2) Stress effects the ability to focus on the sights, and on super high stress (being hit by ricochet in a gunfight) the sights will be a complete blur while the target is in full focus (making shots from over 8 meters almost impossible).
3) Adam can't aim down sights while walking, strafing or running.
4) Rifles and other heavier weapons will sway making long range shots very difficult.

Shooting
1) Pressing the trigger is often accompanied by small to big flinches depending on stress level and rate of fire. It's important that the gun will hit exactly where it's aimed (unlike every other game out there in the market where it's god damn frustrating to have a weapon that shoots sideways), and that the player can see Adam flinching and understand that this shot is out of his range of abilities.
2) Depending on rate of fire and stress level the weapon shouldn't always respond to a mouse click telling it to shoot - much like a real shooter Adam will sometimes pull the trigger irregularly without reaching trigger reset and not every press of the finger will translate to a gunshot.
3) Recoil is a *****, Adam has serious problems controlling his handguns and rifles at high rates of fire.

Miscellaneous
1) Pulling out the weapon takes a longer time.
2) Accuracy from the hip is horrible.
3) Shooting while running is useless.
4) Shooting full auto is useless for medium ranges. In long bursts Adam will focus completely on firing the weapon without being able to aim at all.


Level 2 - Experianced

Weapon handling and maintenance
1) Adam can maintain the weapon, replace any broken parts and upgrade the weapon with generic parts as long as he has the right tools.
2) Increased speed of reloading and jam fixing.
3)High stress effects the speed in which Adam reloads and fixes jams (shaky hands make it problematic to insert magazines and cocking the weapon).

Aiming
1) Adam can aim quicker down sights, and keep the focus on them even at high rates of fire.
2) Adam can focus on sights even under stress, but using non-holographic sights still means sights are focused and the target is blurry. On super high stress (being hit by ricochet in a gunfight) the sights will still be a complete blur while the target is in full focus (making shots from over 8 meters almost impossible).
3) Adam can aim down sights while walking and strafing, but weapon sway has a strong effect.
4) Rifles sway in a small '8' pattern allowing Adam to shoot effectively at long rage with enough patience.

Shooting
1) Small flinches only occur on single shots making it difficult to get head shots from a medium range. On high rates of fire flinching doesn't occur.
2) Weapon will always shoot when the player clicks the trigger. Rate of fire is basically limitless but the question is where will the bullet hit.
3) Adam has a good control of handgun recoil which is up-down only. He also has good control over rifle recoil but the weapon jerking as he shoots is sporadic, making it hard to get long bursts hit the target dead on.

Miscellaneous
1) Pulling out the weapon takes a much shorter time
2) Accuracy from the hip is mediocre
3) Shooting while running is still useless.
4) Adam can control the weapon while shooting full auto as long as the bursts are 5 bullets or less.


Level 3 - Professional

Weapon handling and maintenance
1) Adam can maintain the weapon, replace any broken parts and completely optimize the weapon as long as he has the right tools and equipment.
2) Insane reload and jam fixing speed.
3)High stress still effects the speed in which Adam reloads and fixes jams, but the speed is still amazing.

Aiming
1) Adam can aim down sights much like he can point his finger at something he wants dead.
2) Adam can focus on sights even under great stress and high rates of fire, but using non-holographic sights still means sights are focused and the target is blurry. On super high stress (being hit by ricochet in a gunfight) the sights will still be a complete blur while the target is in full focus (making shots from over 8 meters almost impossible).
3) Adam can aim down sights while walking and strafing, weapon sway is almost neutralized thanks to Adam's technique. He can also aim down sights while running but the weapon sway has a major effect.
4) Adam can hold his breath to remove rifle sway almost completely for short periods of time. With normal breathing the weapon will still move in '8' pattern. (impossible to preform under stress)

Shooting
1) Adam doesn't flinch.
2) Weapon will always shoot when the player clicks the trigger. Rate of fire is basically limitless but the question is where will the bullet hit.
3) Adam ignores handgun recoil almost completely. Rifle recoil is significantly reduced and holds a stable up-down pattern, allowing for experienced and calm players to hit fast bursts right on target even at medium ranges.

Miscellaneous
1) Adam can pull out his gun and kill you before you can say 'oh ****'
2) Accuracy from the hip is mediocre
3) Shooting while running is still kinda useless
4) Adam has a great control over weapons firing full auto.


So to put it into more visual terms Basic level will look like this -

Basic shooting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuwHygZlWYE)
Fast shooting attempt (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdiJsFln64U)

Experienced level -

Handgun on steel plate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzib6IWQ4og)
Short combat drill (http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/rsrc.php/z4OG5/hash/7qkbs3nb.swf?v=126375813595&ev=0)

And finally Professional -

IPSC (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D72ZC4kOapg)
Hostage rescue unit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NkbYnuX0Zw)
USSA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAy-HyEFHC8)


One question still remains, how will you gain the levels? I think that the best way to go is the more you use a certain weapon the better you can handle it, slowly leveling up. The alternative is to level it up with generic XP points you gain in various ways, but this makes leveling up feel very un-natural.

What do you think?

Pinky_Powers
6th Jun 2010, 17:59
Pinky, maybe other take that term to mean something less striking, but when someone says "industry changing", I think of a game with impact on the order of Doom, when it first came out.

Anyway, my apologies for misinterpreting your statement.

There are certainly levels involved here. But the term itself simply means "something has change in the industry". It's the little changes that are often the most important. I was all too happy to see the elaborate tree structure of the KotOR system pop up in other games. And Bioware has done a wonderful job with the Mass Effect system as well.

Archy
6th Jun 2010, 18:59
come one guys i thought you were better than this
it's not as if you're going to have any weight on stats by whining about it.
it doesn't even make sense for any of you to be whining in the first place, you don't even know how they're going about without skills

booheads
6th Jun 2010, 19:43
no weapon stats. this is more of a straight shooter than rpg now. well third person shooter half of the time

Irate_Iguana
6th Jun 2010, 19:47
I think that the best way to go is the more you use a certain weapon the better you can handle it, slowly leveling up. The alternative is to level it up with generic XP points you gain in various ways, but this makes leveling up feel very un-natural.

No, just no. Use-based systems always degenerate into mindless grinding in order to level up as soon as possible. With XP-based systems at least there is something preventing you from doing that. Leveling up by doing sounds like a good idea, but it is still the same unnatural way of gaining skill. I'd rather see an abstract system like XP than having to shoot dead greasels for level-ups.



you don't even know how they're going about without skills

Yeah, we do. They were removed from the game.

Lady_Of_The_Vine
6th Jun 2010, 20:21
Perhaps FAQs might help:


HOW DOES EXPERIENCE & SKILL POINTS FIT IN?
DX:HR will use experience gained through completing objectives, exploration, or other means to "upgrade" or "learn better use of" purchased augmentations. There is some versatility in character build; you aren't forced to use your skill points in the same manner at the beginning of the game, you can use other configurations and clear the levels of the game. You can modify yourself and your weapons to be able to do different things and also in the physical world there are different ways to complete an objective. It's about multi-path and multi-solution - it depends on your own personal style of play. But you won't be able to get every augmentation or weapon in one playthrough - as mentioned already, Deus Ex: Human Revolution is about choice and consequences, so multiple playthroughs will be required to find and use everything.

Experience Points accumulated during the game experience are spent to gain new, or improve upon, already possessed talents conferred by augmentation. As an example: everyone can shoot a gun, simple point and shoot. Only practice and experience will make you a better shot. Same applies to hacking: everyone can use a low level hacking software to help out, but skilled and experienced hackers will be faster, better, and have less risk of getting noticed while on their endeavor. You can spend skill points on augs. Weapons are upgraded by other means, such as with money or if you find an upgrade in the environment (i.e. searching off the beaten path). But your handling of the weapons are "upgraded" via augmentation (recoil and accuracy) which are basically "arm augment" related.


WHAT ABOUT COMBAT/COVER/STEALTH & WEAPONS?
The game's main focus is not on combat - it's on you choosing how you want to play. The dev team wants to make combat and the actual mechanics of firing a gun better than it was in DX. Not more frequent, not more important, just better in the instances in which you will use it.

Deus Ex had boss fights - Walton Simons, Gunther Hermann, etc., but they weren't the Zelda "hit the boss in the eye three times to kill it" kind of boss fight, and neither is Deus Ex: HR's.

The weapons in DX:HR will be similar to those of our own time, based on real life models so that they have credibility. In addition, there will be some prototype weapons that are a bit more futuristic. Weapons will be upgradeable and will face the same difficult choices as your cybernetic innards. There will be unique upgrades and customisation that might change the behaviour of certain weapons. There is going to be a mix.

In DX:HR, stats have been removed from the act of shooting and instead relies on your ability to target with your mouse and keyboard. However stats have not been removed from you building your character or modifying weapons. There may be other examples of stats/simulation like this in the game, but it must be restated: combat is not more frequent than DX1, not more important, just better in the instances in which you will use it.

The design has been updated to utilise a cover system should you choose to engage it. As the game is first person, it is only if you press a key when up against a wall that the view changes to third person perspective. As soon as you move away from the wall, the game returns to first person. You don't have to engage the cover system if you don't want to. You can just easily walk up to that same wall in first person and never see the third person cover. It remains your choice... an option if you wish to see the way Adam looks with augmentations you've chosen throughout the game.

Stealth in DX:HR is based on light and sound; shadows are no longer used as the primary stealth element - it will be line-of-sight and sound propagation. You can hide anywhere you see fit as long as you're hidden by an obstacle and don't produce too much noise.

Blade_hunter
6th Jun 2010, 20:34
99% tells that would be like R6V with some minor tweaks

My own quote helps better, it shows the whole direction in a few words.
And don't say that is wrong because even the previews seems to confirm that.

singularity
6th Jun 2010, 20:49
I don't mind that they removed stats for weapon accuracy. The first half of DX, I didn't feel like a highly trained, bad-ass nano-tech agent who could tackle a situation any way I wanted. I felt like a scared 12 year old girl who was forced to take the stealth route more often than not because I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with my pistol.

DX has always been a shooter-RPG. And the weakest part of both DX games thus far have been the shooting mechanics (DXIW had problems with the RPG mechanics too, but that's another topic). I play something like Morrowwind, and simply cannot restart the game and build a new character because for the first 5 hours, you cannot hit anything because your stats are too low. DX is similar for me, although less so.

Look at Borderlands -- a looting, co-op RPG rather than a story-driven one but still an RPG with excellent shooting mechanics. Your weapon accuracy, damage, etc is dependant on your weapon and its attachments -- the rest is down to your own personal skill.

Long story short, I'd rather shooting be up to my own personal skill -- where things like stealth, hacking, lockpicking, conversation skills, inventory size, aug abilities, etc. be governed by traditional points systems/ RPG elements. Have a wide variety of weapons and a lot of attachments for them so the guns don't get old, but at the end of the day, if I am quick enough to enter a room and strafe through it, taking down 4 guys with my assault rifle, I want to be able to DO it. I don't want to have to stealth by the room because I have to, (despite my awesome, tricked out SMG).

Blade_hunter
6th Jun 2010, 21:21
Deus Ex isn't a run and gun game and even this one won't be.

Romeo
6th Jun 2010, 21:28
That's a relation of the damage you can take, and even weapon efficiency.
If you are fragile or your weapons aren't very efficient, then the game can be very hard.

Yeah I mention efficiency because there is a lot of factors that can make a weapons efficient or not even when they are managed by a dynamic aim (expandable crosshair that shows the current accuracy).
Personally, my opinion is just will remove some RPG elements from the game, now I'm not against and I'm not fully with.
I mean Deus Ex can come with a great stat based system even if in reality that's a combination of the two.
To me the combat will be "streamlined" in therms of gunfights and that's not because of the removal of the stats from the combats.

If I remember ME1 had stats for the combat, no :scratch: ?
It did, although many players found the stats there... Wanting.

If a player wanted accuracy, the stats were damn near useless, they were better just grabbing the best weapon (Spectre gear) and ignoring the stats. Power? Same thing. Stats really only helped with special abilities.

My point is, whether or not the combat is or isn't stat-based, it wont matter to me, so long as it's good.

Blade_hunter
6th Jun 2010, 21:39
You know even if I prefer them in, that's not my main worry, the worry are other features that are much more problematic for the gameplay than the presence or not of the stats.
They doesn't make good or bad shooting by themselves, they just makes the shooting act easier or harder second the stats we have.
They can at best make your favorite gameplay aspect more easy.

That's even why they aren't my main worry, even if the RPG aspect of the game is reduced, and that's why there is people who complain about.
I just tell that the game can have great shooting and stats with, nothing else.

Gaunt88
6th Jun 2010, 22:28
Perhaps FAQs might help:

So. Firing our guns will produce recoil, which will make them more inaccurate. Maybe this will apply, like in DX1, to movement as well, with adam being more accurate when he's crouched and stationary than when he's running around. This will probably be represented by "reticle bloom".

An early-game Adam will only be able to fire accurately slowly, in short bursts. Spending skill points on certain augs will result in Adam being able to handle the recoil better, resulting in more accurate shooting for longer periods of time.

There's you RPG skill progression right there. The only difference being that now, a careful player can still use guns fairly effectively even at low levels.

This doesn't sound like the mindless point-and-click shooter people seem to be worried about. Try playing like it is, start blasting away, your shots will go everywhere and you'll probably run out of ammo before you've even left the first area.

hem dazon 90
6th Jun 2010, 22:33
I love how the only dude in this thread wh is making any sense and isn't a butthurt "purist" is gaunt

Angel/0A
6th Jun 2010, 22:44
It did, although many players found the stats there... Wanting.

If a player wanted accuracy, the stats were damn near useless, they were better just grabbing the best weapon (Spectre gear) and ignoring the stats. Power? Same thing. Stats really only helped with special abilities.

Hey, you couldn't use the scope on the sniper rifle if you were untrained in sniper rifles!

Blade_hunter
6th Jun 2010, 23:44
This doesn't sound like the mindless point-and-click shooter people seem to be worried about. Try playing like it is, start blasting away, your shots will go everywhere and you'll probably run out of ammo before you've even left the first area.

It depends how you define it, I defined it as an other R6vegas which it is.
As far as I know TP cover shooters or FPS using TP cover aren't run n' gun, you have to use the cover system then pop and shoot.
I don't know why you imagined from people's talk.

Pinky_Powers
7th Jun 2010, 02:24
It depends how you define it, I defined it as an other R6vegas which it is.
As far as I know TP cover shooters or FPS using TP cover aren't run n' gun, you have to use the cover system then pop and shoot.
I don't know why you imagined from people's talk.

How about the truth? That there's a lot more to this game than your extremely poor assessment.

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2010, 02:35
That's the truth, man, the gunfights won't be very different.

singularity
7th Jun 2010, 02:38
Hey, you couldn't use the scope on the sniper rifle if you were untrained in sniper rifles!

Really? ... I just realized I've NEVER played a run-through of DX without putting at least one upgrade in rifles right out of the gate. And the one time I didn't I grabbed the crossbow in the begining instead of the sniper rifle and had already upgraded rifles by the time I got one.

On topic -- so long as the combat feels good, and it feels like shooting my way out is just as much fun as sneaking in, I'll be happy. It was the one aspect of DX 1 and 2 that I hatted the most. Stealth was fun, story was cool... gunplay was lacking.
If the guys at Eidos don't think they can make the gunplay good with stats included, that's fine by me. so long as it is good.

Pinky_Powers
7th Jun 2010, 02:49
That's the truth, man, the gunfights won't be very different.

But the game will be. And $h1t, even the gunfights too! Yes, the mechanic will be very similar, but the progression and unfolding of the fight won't be nearly as linear and railed as Vegas. The AI alone will see to that, as they will be written susceptible to stealth elements and open-ended environments.

You need to open your eyes and look at the whole picture, not just these little details you've fixated on.

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2010, 03:24
And what ? I don't said that the level design that will be like Vegas, only the shooting, but those gameplay mechanics leads unfortunately to a very repetitive gameplay. Even with a *cool* recoil upgrade we can get from the strength aug.
And you know that vegas allowed you to choose sometimes the entrance of a room, so even if it was almost railed, you could have some choices and that didn't changed its repetitiveness in therms of fightings and even gameplay.

I don't make a simple fixation, but that thing is one of the the things that worry me a lot because the cover system is a MAJOR gameplay element since it acts in the 2 core aspects of DX 3 and the RH is the other which works in combination with the cover.
And this indicates some possibilities in therms of how you will play your missions.

And finally you don't seemed to be unhappy with those things.

Pinky_Powers
7th Jun 2010, 03:47
And what ? I don't said that the level design that will be like Vegas, only the shooting, but those gameplay mechanics leads unfortunately to a very repetitive gameplay. Even with a *cool* recoil upgrade we can get from the strength aug.
And you know that vegas allowed you to choose sometimes the entrance of a room, so even if it was almost railed, you could have some choices and that didn't changed its repetitiveness in therms of fightings and even gameplay.

I don't make a simple fixation, but that thing is one of the the things that worry me a lot because the cover system is a MAJOR gameplay element since it acts in the 2 core aspects of DX 3 and the RH is the other which works in combination with the cover.
And this indicates some possibilities in therms of how you will play your missions.

And finally you don't seemed to be unhappy with those things.

You're not fooling anybody but yourself here. In the last few days you've said maybe a dozen times how DX:HR is little more than a modified R6V. It's only when someone calls you on it that you revise your statement to "oh, no. It's only the shooting mechanic... the shooting mechanic that's like Vegas".

What I've gleamed from your posts is that you truly believe the 3rd-person cover-system and health regeneration makes the game a Rainbow Six Las Vegas clone. And this is baseless... absurdly baseless.

You'll notice there was another point in my previous reply that you overlooked. I said "AI alone will see to that, as they will be written susceptible to stealth elements and..." This will have an enormous affect on how gunfights play out. The ability to run and hide, the ability to break line-of-sight and flank the enemy. These are things you could not do in Las Vegas.

Also, multiple entry points is not even close to the same as open-ended buildings and environments. Every fight in Vegas was a set-piece, and once it began, you were in it for the long hall. That's not how a Deus Ex game works, and you know it. But the second you hear there's a 3rd-person cover system you throw away all rationality and proclaim in the fashion of a broken record that "Deus Ex -Human Revolution is just a Rainbow Six Las Vegas wannabe!".

Now you can either get mad at me, or ignore me, or you can sit quietly for a little bit and ponder these things. I'm speaking the truth here, whether you're willing to admit it or not. And I speak as your friend.

Philologus
7th Jun 2010, 04:06
Well well.. count me in as one of those who enjoyed the gameplay of DX1, and hope for at least some of it to translate to HR. (Don't worry, I realize fully futility of such wanton sentimentality, in this gaming age of Halo, and its ilk)

That being said, if the story can equal or surpass that of DX1, I will be pleased overall. The subject-matter of DX, and its presentation of the human condition is the biggest draw for me.

alerus
7th Jun 2010, 04:57
No, just no. Use-based systems always degenerate into mindless grinding in order to level up as soon as possible. With XP-based systems at least there is something preventing you from doing that. Leveling up by doing sounds like a good idea, but it is still the same unnatural way of gaining skill. I'd rather see an abstract system like XP than having to shoot dead greasels for level-ups.


That assumes that you *can* actually grind. I don't recall any way you can actually level grind in Deus Ex (save the key pad glitch :p ). Assuming this follows the same path, use-based systems would not suffer this fate, but instead would actually reflect how you approach the game.

minus0ne
7th Jun 2010, 06:06
You're not fooling anybody but yourself here. In the last few days you've said maybe a dozen times how DX:HR is little more than a modified R6V. It's only when someone calls you on it that you revise your statement to "oh, no. It's only the shooting mechanic... the shooting mechanic that's like Vegas".

What I've gleamed from your posts is that you truly believe the 3rd-person cover-system and health regeneration makes the game a Rainbow Six Las Vegas clone. And this is baseless... absurdly baseless.
Blade_hunter takes his shooting and combat/health mechanics seriously, and I've never heard him say the entire game will be a R6V clone, he just expresses concerns that the game mechanics will be similarly "streamlined" when compared to previous instalments of R6. The point he's making is that third-person cover based mechanics also lead to major undesirable side-effects in other areas.

Perhaps in the future you should gleam a little bit more before putting words in someone's mouth.

Irate_Iguana
7th Jun 2010, 07:02
That assumes that you *can* actually grind.

Well, yes. I don't know of the top of my head any use-based system that wasn't completely vulnerable to this. There are always ways to grind since you'll need to be able to train those skills.

Another thing I have against use-based systems is that it makes it very hard to do anything other than the path you are set on. Suppose I want to primarily play a hacker with decent to good pistol skills. In a use-based system I'd be forced to go around shooting people now and again to train my weapon skills for those three fights where I actively choose to use my weapon. I actually need to alter my gameplay because I'd be hosed otherwise. XP, though much more abstract, will at least allow me greater flexibility.

Romeo
7th Jun 2010, 07:31
I love how the only dude in this thread wh is making any sense and isn't a butthurt "purist" is gaunt
I think both sides have made intelligent arguments. I'm sort've undecided on the matter (Although I will admit, I prefer the concept of improving weapons moreso than upping stats. And yes, I'm aware the first game had both). I wouldn't say he's the only person in this thread making any sense, not at all.

Hey, you couldn't use the scope on the sniper rifle if you were untrained in sniper rifles!
Ok yeah, that was pretty bad. lol

Really? ... I just realized I've NEVER played a run-through of DX without putting at least one upgrade in rifles right out of the gate. And the one time I didn't I grabbed the crossbow in the begining instead of the sniper rifle and had already upgraded rifles by the time I got one.

On topic -- so long as the combat feels good, and it feels like shooting my way out is just as much fun as sneaking in, I'll be happy. It was the one aspect of DX 1 and 2 that I hatted the most. Stealth was fun, story was cool... gunplay was lacking.
If the guys at Eidos don't think they can make the gunplay good with stats included, that's fine by me. so long as it is good.
No no no, she's referring to Mass Effect. If you weren't trained to be proficient with a Sniper Rifle (You had to be a soldier, or infiltrator) you literally couldn't bring the weapon's sights up, which meant your accuracy reticule was quite literally 7/8ths of the screen, it was hilarious. It was somewhat unfair being an Infiltrator, as the Assault Rifles and Shotguns both still remained fairly useful even if you couldn't sight them.

Romeo
7th Jun 2010, 07:33
Well, yes. I don't know of the top of my head any use-based system that wasn't completely vulnerable to this. There are always ways to grind since you'll need to be able to train those skills.

Another thing I have against use-based systems is that it makes it very hard to do anything other than the path you are set on. Suppose I want to primarily play a hacker with decent to good pistol skills. In a use-based system I'd be forced to go around shooting people now and again to train my weapon skills for those three fights where I actively choose to use my weapon. I actually need to alter my gameplay because I'd be hosed otherwise. XP, though much more abstract, will at least allow me greater flexibility.
Yeah, I'm with you on this one brother. I loved the system in Morrowind - for a time. After a while though, you begin to devolve into things like jumping from tall ledges to up you acrobatics, or just sitting there getting hit to increase armor skills.

It's cool to know that what you're doing is improving with use, but ultimately, it does make for poor gameplay.

JackShandy
7th Jun 2010, 08:39
As an example: everyone can shoot a gun, simple point and shoot. Only practice and experience will make you a better shot...But your handling of the weapons are "upgraded" via augmentation (recoil and accuracy)...

So, your accuracy with weapons IS controlled by stats, unless I'm misunderstanding (it all hinges on how exactly they mean "Experience", in-game or out.). Should we swap sides, then? The Butthurt Purists defending HR while we complain about it?

SageSavage
7th Jun 2010, 08:48
Apart from reading books or taking lessons, use-based systems are still the most natural feeling skill-systems to me, despite their shortcomings.

Zahar
7th Jun 2010, 13:32
I'm asking because according to the preview in the July issue of PC Gamer, that is no longer the case. So what else has been dumbed down or removed to appease the Call of Duty/Halo crowd?
[/B]

I'm not into Call of Duty or Halo. My favorite games are RPGs and RTSs.

I also NEVER liked that specific mechanic and I think it aged vey badly too. Actually, I only used pistols in DE1 because of it, and it's the main flaw with that game imho.

There are TONS of ways to do that without making the early game so BORING and the weapons balance so BAD. Pistols are concelable, assault rifles aren't - so ARs SHOULD be better in open combat, specially if you're not highly trained with either, etc.

Just look at Mass Effect 1 and ME2. ME1 has the same system DE1 had, so if you choose to be a sniper (infiltrator in that game), you'd use pistols for 80% of the game. Simply lame.

Now take ME2. You "slow time" when scoping with your rifle, so you can become better and better with it and still it's useful at early game. The problem was solved.

There's no reason to FORCE people to play in a way they don't like (snipers using pistols for 80% of the game i.e.), they simply had not developed better ways to make players feel their char skills are increasing back in DE1 release date. It's not the case today.

Just a few examples of how games deal with it withot boring, old methods:
Fallout3 VATS
ME2 "slows" many combat classes have if you invest points on the right skills
Splinter Cell Conviction "marking" system for instant kills
Red Dead Redemption "dead eye" (actually changes, has 3 levels, and I'll not explain all 3 here, but it works well)

Single player games have SO MANY WAYS to simulate your evolution in combat skills - since you can STOP or SLOW DOWN time without pausing the other players time too (obviously that would be crap) - why you want us all to have a bad combat experience just because you'd like a remake with new graphics? Just try some new stuff, you'd me amazed how good some new systems are.

I hope they implement something equaly good to contemporary games at DE:HR.

Blade_hunter
7th Jun 2010, 13:42
Overestimating the AI effect on gameplay, I have to say, and In Vegas the AI could be flanked on certain areas, that's much more because using the cover and BTW relying on our ability to regenerate, that made that combo very effective that most people when playing Vegas rely on those two elements.
AI have always effects on gameplay, but the cover and even the RH will make your ability to move more risky than standing behind that cover system.

As for broken record, you can call me like that if you want, but my eyes are sightly open, and the AI stealth capabilities weren't ignored as well as level design possibilities.
But Minus0ne took my own point it lead into undesirable effects.

The cover systems in TP gave too much advantages for those using them over people who rely on a certain mobility, and this is valuable in FPS since the cover hides you, protects you and even allow you to see around the said corner without being partially exposed.
If you are unable to see the point I am making then move on.

IOOI
7th Jun 2010, 17:01
You're not fooling anybody but yourself here. In the last few days you've said maybe a dozen times how DX:HR is little more than a modified R6V. It's only when someone calls you on it that you revise your statement to "oh, no. It's only the shooting mechanic... the shooting mechanic that's like Vegas".

What I've gleamed from your posts is that you truly believe the 3rd-person cover-system and health regeneration makes the game a Rainbow Six Las Vegas clone. And this is baseless... absurdly baseless.

You'll notice there was another point in my previous reply that you overlooked. I said "AI alone will see to that, as they will be written susceptible to stealth elements and..." This will have an enormous affect on how gunfights play out. The ability to run and hide, the ability to break line-of-sight and flank the enemy. These are things you could not do in Las Vegas.

Also, multiple entry points is not even close to the same as open-ended buildings and environments. Every fight in Vegas was a set-piece, and once it began, you were in it for the long hall. That's not how a Deus Ex game works, and you know it. But the second you hear there's a 3rd-person cover system you throw away all rationality and proclaim in the fashion of a broken record that "Deus Ex -Human Revolution is just a Rainbow Six Las Vegas wannabe!".

Now you can either get mad at me, or ignore me, or you can sit quietly for a little bit and ponder these things. I'm speaking the truth here, whether you're willing to admit it or not. And I speak as your friend.

Hey Mr.P., my Made Man. You isa skunkin. Start tripin again. :nut:

Dudeman315
7th Jun 2010, 23:42
I'm not into Call of Duty or Halo. My favorite games are RPGs and RTSs.

I also NEVER liked that specific mechanic and I think it aged vey badly too. Actually, I only used pistols in DE1 because of it, and it's the main flaw with that game imho.

There are TONS of ways to do that without making the early game so BORING and the weapons balance so BAD. Pistols are concelable, assault rifles aren't - so ARs SHOULD be better in open combat, specially if you're not highly trained with either, etc.

Just look at Mass Effect 1 and ME2. ME1 has the same system DE1 had, so if you choose to be a sniper (infiltrator in that game), you'd use pistols for 80% of the game. Simply lame.

Now take ME2. You "slow time" when scoping with your rifle, so you can become better and better with it and still it's useful at early game. The problem was solved.

There's no reason to FORCE people to play in a way they don't like (snipers using pistols for 80% of the game i.e.), they simply had not developed better ways to make players feel their char skills are increasing back in DE1 release date. It's not the case today.

Just a few examples of how games deal with it withot boring, old methods:
Fallout3 VATS
ME2 "slows" many combat classes have if you invest points on the right skills
Splinter Cell Conviction "marking" system for instant kills
Red Dead Redemption "dead eye" (actually changes, has 3 levels, and I'll not explain all 3 here, but it works well)

Single player games have SO MANY WAYS to simulate your evolution in combat skills - since you can STOP or SLOW DOWN time without pausing the other players time too (obviously that would be crap) - why you want us all to have a bad combat experience just because you'd like a remake with new graphics? Just try some new stuff, you'd me amazed how good some new systems are.

I hope they implement something equaly good to contemporary games at DE:HR.
I actually came here hoping to find a RPG/FPS since the ME series decided to jump the boat and become GoW in space but the removal of stat based aiming it just saved me $$. Thanks Eidos!

Yes ME1 and FO3 were great because they had stat based aiming! ME2 ruined the ME franchise and it seems that DE:HR will ruin the the DE franchise, but hey stat management is apparently too hard for today's gamers they just want instant gratification with out the thinking. Enjoy Rainbow Six: Future Edition!

Romeo
8th Jun 2010, 00:09
Ok, right off the bat, the combat system in ME1 can't hold a candle to it's successor. Yes, ME2 had many, many flaws over the first, but combat was definitely NOT one of them. As for Fallout 3, you were still pretty damn capable even without investing stats into dexterity/weapons, and that was with a character who wasn't bred to be an expert agent. If that had been the case with DX1, I'd daresay the game would've been a little more open-ended in the early levels.

mad_red
8th Jun 2010, 00:55
There's you RPG skill progression right there. The only difference being that now, a careful player can still use guns fairly effectively even at low levels.

This doesn't sound like the mindless point-and-click shooter people seem to be worried about. Try playing like it is, start blasting away, your shots will go everywhere and you'll probably run out of ammo before you've even left the first area.

I don't think the game will be as simple as a point-and-click shooter either, but there's nothing a well calibrated skills+upgrades system can't do, that an upgrade-only system can do. Gameplay-wise, that is. But like I said before, removing skill progression de-emphasizes the experience of your character learning and improving as a human being, instead of merely a machine, whoms abilities are not all equal, and who is limited in some areas eventually accumulate history of difficult and uncommon feats in other areas. I prefer to play a character that can improve his human body by itself, in addition to technology. That's why I think the decision to remove the skills-based system... it just stinks.

Use-based system could work too I guess, but you'd definitely have to get rid of the grind somehow. Maybe some kind of per-mission skill advancement cap? It certainly does reward exploration - the only thing you get good at by storming through the front door is... yeah I'm pretty sure it's storming through front doors.
(edit: and origami?)

Nyysjan
8th Jun 2010, 11:21
Ok, right off the bat, the combat system in ME1 can't hold a candle to it's successor. Yes, ME2 had many, many flaws over the first, but combat was definitely NOT one of them.

I disagree, in part atleast.
Combat was mostly more fun, but the constant hunt for more ammo was horrible, especially if you had sniper rifle as your weapon of choice, so while in ME1 it sometimes took too long to kill things (even from point blank range with best possible weapons), ME2 had faster paced combat (for the most part), but the constant worry about ammo more than made up for that improvement, so ME2 merely replaced one flaw with another.

Pinky_Powers
8th Jun 2010, 14:04
I disagree, in part atleast.
Combat was mostly more fun, but the constant hunt for more ammo was horrible, especially if you had sniper rifle as your weapon of choice, so while in ME1 it sometimes took too long to kill things (even from point blank range with best possible weapons), ME2 had faster paced combat (for the most part), but the constant worry about ammo more than made up for that improvement, so ME2 merely replaced one flaw with another.

Running out of ammo isn't a flaw.

I played Mass Effect 2 twice (I'll run through a 3rd time after all the major DLCs are released), and generally, I never had ammo troubles.

Angel/0A
8th Jun 2010, 15:18
...ME2 had faster paced combat (for the most part), but the constant worry about ammo more than made up for that improvement, so ME2 merely replaced one flaw with another.


Running out of ammo isn't a flaw.

I played Mass Effect 2 twice (I'll run through a 3rd time after all the major DLCs are released), and generally, I never had ammo troubles.

Aye, you typically run out of ammo for any given weapon if you're trying to use it in every situation (sniper at point-blank, shotgun at someone 30 yards away), and even if you do, all classes have alternate weapons to fall back on, so you're still in the game. My only problem with ammo in ME2 is there's a little OCD part of me that makes me want to have a full ammo stock going into fights and at the end of every mission...

Pinky_Powers
8th Jun 2010, 16:14
All this ME2 talk is making me want to replay it right now. It was the best gaming experience I'd had in many years... despite it's flaws, which grated on me heavily.

Rindill the Red
8th Jun 2010, 19:06
This issue seems to have people on both sides of the fence.

The fact is, making a game like Deus Ex more "shooter-like" will not allow it compete with games like R6, CoD, or Halo.

DX has it's own category.

Having stats based shooting is an important part of the RPG/FPS hybrid because you are Role-Playing the character in the game and because of this you are using *his* skills.

That being said, I think many games (Alpha Protocol as a recent example, and the original DX), simply start your weapon stats too low.

It takes normal people in real life time to aim their shots (they are actually holding a weapon, not looking at a dot drawn on a computer screen and moving a tiny light smooth mouse). So to say that your ability to move a dot with a mouse should equate to aiming an actual weapon is ridiculous.

Besides that there are things like recoil, accuracy, stability, etc. which play into being able to actually hit what you are aiming at.

If an rpg player thinks that their character should be able to aim and hit things like a robot then they can dump skill points into their weapon skills.

I think this "issue" is easily solved by making the initial skill stats "realistic" and leaving room for stat-based improvement (even if it's not as obvious as DX 1 made it).

I think Alpha Protocol makes you wait waaay too long to line up a good shot even on the higher skill levels.

Dudeman315
8th Jun 2010, 23:56
FO3>ME1>WaW>MW2>Halo>Doom>Me2 in regards to combat in my opinion.

Sorry I was kinda angry because my hopes were up. If xp and levels don't effect combat it takes away choice why should I invest in a combat alt skill(like stealth) since I'm great at combat that I can kill everything anyways. So we remove the stealth as a good way to spend points you have what talking and hacking? So now unless hacking does something amazing outside of combat we only have talking to invest points into and it kinda destroys choice because it only leave you with one viable stat since you are already good enough at combat to finish the whole game. So if you don't have a combat stat why even have stats?

Angel/0A
9th Jun 2010, 01:21
You invest in another skill because although you may be competent in combat, you won't be able to easily charge everything head-on in combat up to the end of the game with just your starting skill set/weapons. Just because you're decent at combat doesn't mean you can't supplement that ability with other stats.

Also, technically you could claim that DX:IW ruined the DX franchise, so in a way there's nothing left to mess up! :P

Dudeman315
9th Jun 2010, 02:08
You invest in another skill because although you may be competent in combat, you won't be able to easily charge everything head-on in combat up to the end of the game with just your starting skill set/weapons. Just because you're decent at combat doesn't mean you can't supplement that ability with other stats.

Also, technically you could claim that DX:IW ruined the DX franchise, so in a way there's nothing left to mess up! :P

Maybe there isn't I didn't play IW cause I had a mac by then--DX would be for 360 for me--We have no proof that you can't just head on charge everything--look at vanguard insanity ME2 play through--which could be achieved without spending a single level up point after the tutorial. I would like to hear someone confirm that without combat upgrade you will not be able to own all challenges and maybe get some pro-fps players to prove that it is not possible.

Zahar
9th Jun 2010, 16:26
I disagree, in part atleast.
Combat was mostly more fun, but the constant hunt for more ammo was horrible, especially if you had sniper rifle as your weapon of choice, so while in ME1 it sometimes took too long to kill things (even from point blank range with best possible weapons), ME2 had faster paced combat (for the most part), but the constant worry about ammo more than made up for that improvement, so ME2 merely replaced one flaw with another.

Like people said, running out of ammo is not a flaw.

You know why ammo is not free in ME2? Because it lets the devs balance the game even if you can AIM with the good guns early on. So at the beginning of the game you cannot use ONLY a sniper rifle like you can later (well, actually you can, but you must make your bullets count, not spray n pray with a sniper rifle).

It's a very usual way to balance games with combat using guns btw, just new to ME cause ME 1 didn't have ammo. ME1 was different, not ME2 :)

Pinky_Powers
9th Jun 2010, 16:53
Mass Effect 2 certainly had some flaws, but they were mostly due to dumbing-down issues. The ammo system actually worked quite well I thought.