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View Full Version : MISC. After Latest Patch Vamps Seem OP



MarinePikachu
27th Mar 2014, 08:12
Now I never thought vamps were op before and infact, a good human team seemed to often win over a good vampire team. However, now the vampires seem to really be clearly better.

We know that after the March 13 patch, vamps were way underpowered since the aim assist got shrunk and they were missing attacks even when the attacks swiped right infront of a human. When this got fixed by changing the size of the hitbox, now the attacks NEVER miss.

In addition, for some reason the vamps seem to be attacking faster (may be me just going crazy) but I know from past experiences that I have to throw a choking haze to widdle down the opponenet and jump in and jump out of battles otherwise im dead. Now, I can just pounce in a group of people (without using choking haze) and start slashing away. I remember in the past that if I jumped into a full hp good scout trying to kill him, I would probably die or get close to dieing. Now, I can easily kill the scout with very little hp taken off, if any.

Something needs to be done because we went from vamps missing a lot of attacks and losing a lot of rounds to never missing attacks and always winning rounds.

Prime_Abstergo
27th Mar 2014, 08:44
In addition, for some reason the vamps seem to be attacking faster (may be me just going crazy)

Something needs to be done because we went from vamps missing a lot of attacks and losing a lot of rounds to never missing attacks and always winning rounds.
1. I had the same feeling about melee attack speed during last sessions. Maybe we need a quick respond from devs on last changes??:scratch:

2. I fully agree with you. The game become not about "Predators vs Hunters", but "Predators vs pathetic meat chunks". It is now when you're a vampire - you own, next round - you're underdog. The winner is a team that will shred human bodies faster.

Persiphas
27th Mar 2014, 11:22
They should just nerf Reaver. To me the game concept feels like rock, paper, scissors, Chuck Norris lately^^ I agree with you guys, the vampires seem much stronger than before. However I didn't notice any melee attack speed changes (but maybe that's just because I'm not that experienced). An alternative way might be a rework of dodge rolls to make humans a little harder to hit while rolling...

cmstache
27th Mar 2014, 11:52
The melee didn't change. The difference if that they actually hit then they are intended. Vampires are where they need to be, for the most part. Humans need to start dealing damage before they are close, if you wait until then it's too late, as it should be. Sure, certain abilities need tweaking, but the humans and vampires are really about even. The humans have issues that are abusive, but so do the vampires.

One of the issues is that the vampires have new abilities and the human teams need time to adjust tactics and learn ability weakness. Sure, some of the more experienced players are already starting to pick apart abilities, but many players can't yet. It takes time before you can say something is OP.

Deltajugg
27th Mar 2014, 12:07
I think the attack speed issue you guys have may have something to do with daily attack speed boost perk for vampires.

As for the overall game balance, it's hard for me to say. I sure seem to do much better with vampires than before, usually getting 30/15 as vampires, when we lost 29/30 as humans, but I can't tell exactly why is it like that. It definitely had nothing to do with new abilities, cause apart from new choking haze effects, my team didn't have any of it, but I won't blame any certain game aspect yet until I see the patchnotes to confirm it, because it may be just about poor human teamwork (that I sure do witness lately), as I did have one match where we won 30/15 on both sides.

Prime_Abstergo
27th Mar 2014, 12:17
It takes time before you can say something is OP. In this case I don't need any time.

As being a Hunter, my main character, I found it very easy to outplay a Reaver Norris. But what do you suggest me to do when playing Alchemist? Its really easy to flank Alchemist, then roundhouse kick-charged melee-one more melee. You dead.

Yea, LOT of fun. And now it looks like you play against 'reaver spam' in every session.

cmstache
27th Mar 2014, 12:40
In this case I don't need any time.

As being a Hunter, my main character, I found it very easy to outplay a Reaver Norris. But what do you suggest me to do when playing Alchemist? Its really easy to flank Alchemist, then roundhouse kick-charged melee-one more melee. You dead.

Yea, LOT of fun. And now it looks like you play against 'reaver spam' in every session.

Play a good alchemist. As you said, you main hunter. There are a few (though not many) GOOD alchemist players in the game. Most of them are underappreciated, but they can easily turn around a match. I welcome any reavers that want to run right up to me and kick me.

MasterFurbz
27th Mar 2014, 15:34
I'm going to play on this build for a bit before passing judgement. There's been a considerable amount of improvements to vampries which may have some unintended consequences.

As it stands most players are going to be used to the broken vamp hit detection that was just fixed, so now vamps will be just as deadly as they were in alpha when they get close. Couple this with a buffed shadowbomb and new abilities and it's going to seem crazy for a while. Personally I got stomped by a 4 reaver stack on a 4-30 round today :P

I want to say that sweeping kick seems too strong atm. It's a better version of leap attack with only 4s more CD. With a solid 340 dmg plus the stun it leads to some crazy combos. I will have to use this ability and have it used more on me though. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

cmstache
27th Mar 2014, 15:40
You do lose the mobility aspect of leap attack though, and the crouched, full-speed movement of it is good for mid-combat movement too.

PlagueMaster
27th Mar 2014, 16:03
But, but, but vampires in LoK universe is much more stronger then humans. Humans kill them with gadgets, that alchemy fire but not with hands. I think that vampires must owned humans in close combat and humans must kill them before vampires get to close range. It is ridiculous when human female kill vampire in close combat with HANDS. When you play humans you must survive but not running to vampires and kill them like some Blade or Movie Van Hellsing. IMHO.

Razaiim
27th Mar 2014, 16:41
I definitely think vampires seem op because the melee works properly and the new skills, which technically weren't supposed to be available, while humans seem to get no compensation

Khalith
27th Mar 2014, 16:46
Kick and shadowstep are brand new and dramatically change the gameplay of the reaver we've all gotten used to playing as or against after all this time, give people time to get used to the changes and adapt before crying nerf. Vamps are stronger now I agree with the new moves but I didn't notice any changes to the hit detection or the hitbox, their melee is just as broken as it was, dunno what people are talking about with that, humans are still the stronger side atm by far, but the new reaver abilities have evened it out a bit.

Hits that are clearly dead on are still missing, hits aren't registering, just yesterday I swung at a human, heard the person's character make the sound when they get hit but the damage didn't register at all.

MasterFurbz
27th Mar 2014, 16:51
I also want to add that shadowstep should NOT be activateable while bola'd. It's strong enough between the invul and the 12sec CD.

killdrith
27th Mar 2014, 17:04
But, but, but vampires in LoK universe is much more stronger then humans. Humans kill them with gadgets, that alchemy fire but not with hands. I think that vampires must owned humans in close combat and humans must kill them before vampires get to close range. It is ridiculous when human female kill vampire in close combat with HANDS. When you play humans you must survive but not running to vampires and kill them like some Blade or Movie Van Hellsing. IMHO.

Why do people even bother making comparisons like this? You think that lore-accurate gameplay would be positive to the experience?
Also, wth are you talking about? The average human is vamp fodder sure, but Sarafan(Seraphim) posed a serious threat. How do you think they hunted the Vampires to extinction(sans1)? I mean Raziel in human form would have been nearly impossible for a vampire to kill without the reaver revitalizing soul reaver Raziel. I'm actually surprised this game doesn't have a melee Human class as most humans in Legacy of Kain are melee.

EDIT:
What would be freakin' awesome is if humans WERE purposely weaker, but after so many kills the top players could play a Sarafan avatar instead for 1 life ala star wars battlefront 2. How cool would that be?

GenFeelGood
27th Mar 2014, 17:07
New abilities aside, with the last patch we lost the aim assist for the vampire melee while not widening the strike area of the humans to encompass their whole frame and as a result, during the 2 weeks leading up to this current patch, we have had to get better at attacking in precisely the right places which improved our skill at aiming. With the new patch the strike area has been widened to encompass the whole human frame. So now the vampire attack is where it should have been with the last patch, but we still have the skills for precise strikes from then. That is why vampires seem more effective than before.

Take it as a compliment, we got good enough to make the vampires look even more bad ass than they already are.

PlagueMaster
27th Mar 2014, 17:41
Why do people even bother making comparisons like this? You think that lore-accurate gameplay would be positive to the experience?
Also, wth are you talking about? The average human is vamp fodder sure, but Sarafan(Seraphim) posed a serious threat. How do you think they hunted the Vampires to extinction(sans1)? I mean Raziel in human form would have been nearly impossible for a vampire to kill without the reaver revitalizing soul reaver Raziel. I'm actually surprised this game doesn't have a melee Human class as most humans in Legacy of Kain are melee.

EDIT:
What would be freakin' awesome is if humans WERE purposely weaker, but after so many kills the top players could play a Sarafan avatar instead for 1 life ala star wars battlefront 2. How cool would that be?

LOL, "Why do people even bother making comparisons like this?", Raziel human was THE LAST BOSS of game - he must be very strong. The game and the universe lore isn't one thing. Vampires was slained by humans because there is no billions vampires and those vampires was not the Kain vampires, they was made by Vorador, we don't know if those vampires was as strong as vampires made by Kain's "Six". We don't see that war, the only thing we see is Janos house and some of dead vampires. This war is far away from that times - different vampires and humans who was slaves for hundreds of years. The young Kain slain thousands of humans and hundreds of demons even before he have Soulreaver, so vampires is very strong (not that strong like young Kain was, but strong).

If they made melee human, then they must do range vampire and that will be not cool - vampires kills with their claws but not with guns or whatever. Most humans enemies in SR and SR2 was melee because of Soulreaver sword and game will be stupid if we must run all over the map to kill "that archer" and 100 more. In BO2 all Serafan warriors was hilden, in BO:LoK - well we was like only one vampire in town, and only in end of game there is vampire hunters.

And, dear sir, I can write my opinion here on this forum if I want to.

killdrith
27th Mar 2014, 17:46
LOL, "Why do people even bother making comparisons like this?", Raziel human was THE LAST BOSS of game - he must be very strong. The game and the universe lore isn't one thing. Vampires was slained by humans because there is no billions vampires and those vampires was not the Kain vampires, they was made by Vorador, we don't know if those vampires was as strong as vampires made by Kain's "Six". We don't see that war, the only thing we see is Janos house and some of dead vampires. This war is far away from that times - different vampires and humans who was slaves for hundreds of years. The young Kain slain thousands of humans and hundreds of demons even before he have Soulreaver, so vampires is very strong (not that strong like young Kain was, but strong).
If they made melee human, then they must do range vampire and that will be not cool - vampires kills with their claws but not with guns or whatever. Most humans enemies in SR and SR2 was melee because of Soulreaver sword and game will be stupid if we must run all over the map to kill "that archer" and 100 more. In BO2 all Serafan warriors was hilden, in BO:LoK - well we was like only one vampire who walks in human towns.


You are giving reasons that counter your original logic which was the point of me posting. Thanks for verifying that.

"It's ok in LoK because you use a sword and need to melee things for it to be fun"
"It's not ok in Nosgoth to melee vamps because vamps are supposed to be really powerful in that regard"

Do you see the contradiction here?

Also Sarafan were not literally Hylden, they were simply being controlled by Hylden.
"Patience, Kain. The race that fought the vampires was the Hylden, the very Hylden that you have just encountered. They control the Sarafan. They are striving to wipe out the vampires, enslave the humans, and reclaim all Nosgoth as their own. They are the evil that plague us once again, authors of the demons and the Device and all else that threatens the land. They have returned to enact a terrible revenge."
―Janos Audron

Even in Blood Omen 2, which is hardly canon, they are not literally Hylden or directly controlled by the dark entity.
*edit* Actually the status of the Sarafan in blood omen 2 could literally have been Hylden but the original Sarafan (well before Blood Omen 2) were most definitely not.

Also, when we were comparing the Human Sarafan to vampires I wasn't comparing them to humans but to soul reaver Raziel. Raziel is also a lot stronger than a vampire and the Sarafan were still strong. I don't think that it's without reason that some humans could duke it out with some underling vamps.

SiD_Green
27th Mar 2014, 17:57
In addition to Sausage's response, I would like to add that not ever class needs to be able to take a vampire 1v1 in every situation. Why are you an alchemist that isn't near any teammates for so long?

PlagueMaster
27th Mar 2014, 18:10
"It's ok in LoK because you use a sword and need to melee things for it to be fun"
"It's not ok in Nosgoth to melee vamps because vamps are supposed to be really powerful in that regard"

Do you see the contradiction here?


Oh my, SR and SR2 is not about fight. Nosgoth about fight only. I talk about lore only, and lore said us that vampires is more strong in melee that humans. In my opinion vampires must be very strong in melee, but I don't make games and I can be wrong, yes?

You try to said that "In SR2 we fight vs allmost immortal Raziel human, so thats why humans must be OP in melee in Nosgoth". This is wrong logic, sir. I only said that multiplayer players vs players game is not the singleplayer game and in SR enemies was melee because that was simplier for players to fight vs melee enemies. Lore doesn't said us with what humans kill vampires in young Kains time, ok?

Ok, man, I don't try to convince you in something. This game was originally made as "range vs melee" so range vampire telekinesis shooter and noble human melee knight will be wrong. And balance in two teams is must be, but humans must not be able to kill vampire in 1vs1 in every situation (also hunter is allmost every time kill reaver 1vs1, but it is ok).

killdrith
27th Mar 2014, 18:42
I'm saying that entering into the LoK universe for Nosgoth gameplay is immediately wrong.
All of my commenting is based on:

But, but, but vampires in LoK universe is much more stronger then humans. Humans kill them with gadgets, that alchemy fire but not with hands. I think that vampires must owned humans in close combat and humans must kill them before vampires get to close range.

I was merely contesting that going by lore alone humans would have fought in close range as well.
Nosgoth maps are NOT BUILT so that you can rely on long-range attacks. You may get a few shots in if the enemy isn't careful, but against good vampires you're going to rely on a lot of close-range combat (not melee).

Rhorge
27th Mar 2014, 18:55
I'm saying that entering into the LoK universe for Nosgoth gameplay is immediately wrong.
All of my commenting is based on:


I was merely contesting that going by lore alone humans would have fought in close range as well.
Nosgoth maps are NOT BUILT so that you can rely on long-range attacks. You may get a few shots in if the enemy isn't careful, but against good vampires you're going to rely on a lot of close-range combat (not melee).

Long range in this game is outside of melee range, be it 10 meters or 100. A scout twacking you for 500 damage on a rooftop makes all the difference in a fight.

PlagueMaster
27th Mar 2014, 18:55
I'm saying that entering into the LoK universe for Nosgoth gameplay is immediately wrong.
All of my commenting is based on:


I was merely contesting that going by lore alone humans would have fought in close range as well.
Nosgoth maps are NOT BUILT so that you can rely on long-range attacks. You may get a few shots in if the enemy isn't careful, but against good vampires you're going to rely on a lot of close-range combat (not melee).

That's why everyone is talk about how teamwork is important for humans. Human team win only if they coordinate. This is what I mean - vampires are kill human, humans - survive. I think this is great - one match you try to kill as many humans as you can, second match you try not to be killed be vampires. Thats why game is awesome and making vampires and humans equal in power is not the good choice for game, I think. And I don't understand wine about "why humans don't kill vampires as easy as vampire kill humans".

killdrith
27th Mar 2014, 19:05
I agree that this game doesn't need the 2 sides to be balanced since you play as both. That's really the strength here. I personally think it's different and cool that one side can be about doing as well as you possibly can and the other is about demolishing as well as you can.

I think people are getting thrown off by the developer's intentions since the side that's doing the "demolishing" is flipping back and forth.

PencileyePirate
27th Mar 2014, 19:21
To be honest I don't see what the problem is. The only significant change I've noticed is that I don't have zero-damage hits anymore. Vampires don't seem more powerful, just a little more reliable ... and as human, they don't seem any harder to fend off.

cmstache
27th Mar 2014, 19:24
^This....

Honestly, the issue isn't that vampires got stronger, it's that they are consistent. Now they can commit to attacking instead of planning on a screw-up. Many newer players are used to having that safety cushion. Humans are PUNISHED for messing up, which is how it should be. With the high DPs of the human team it's hard enough to get close as-is. It SHOULD be a death sentence if you can't do some damage to the team on the way in.

MarinePikachu
27th Mar 2014, 20:47
So why I think something is messed up is because I remember playing with the aim assist on; I never ran into so many matches where the dps of the vamps were this high. I usually kill reavers that come and melee me by kiting but now I end up dieing too soon. Pretty much none of the hits miss me now even though visually they do miss.

As for the speed of the attacks its not due to the daily perk as that only gets triggered when below 33% hp i think. There may be another which is after a kill.

Note that this was the case BEFORE we got the new skills but after the fixbox got fixed.

So basically my point is that when we had aim assist the dps was much less than it is now. Aim assist hits hit very often so the dmg should be as much as it is now but atm it seems like with the new hitbox the dps is higher. For new people being able to do this much dmg compared to past experienced players who didnt have the increased hitbox seems weird.

Khalith
27th Mar 2014, 21:14
As for the speed of the attacks its not due to the daily perk as that only gets triggered when below 33% hp i think. There may be another which is after a kill.

Wrong perk. The haste perk is 5% at all times, you're thinking of the berserk perk which is a damage increase below 33% hp.

MarinePikachu
27th Mar 2014, 21:19
anyways its not the perks because it happens everyday and i never swap out perks

SiD_Green
27th Mar 2014, 21:27
Well really, you should not be able to kite a reaver that's in melee range anyway, that was only working because hits were so inconsistent before.

Psyonix_Corey
27th Mar 2014, 22:07
We'll keep an eye on it. We might need to reduce the hit check distance on melee attacks, or reduce the damage a little bit, now that they're more reliable.

Khalith
27th Mar 2014, 23:08
We'll keep an eye on it. We might need to reduce the hit check distance on melee attacks, or reduce the damage a little bit, now that they're more reliable.

Where are these "more reliable hits" people are getting suddenly? The vamp melee doesn't appear to be any different whatsoever to me, I haven't noticed any change, attacks that should hit are still missing and the hitbox is still too small.

PencileyePirate
27th Mar 2014, 23:09
We'll keep an eye on it. We might need to reduce the hit check distance on melee attacks, or reduce the damage a little bit, now that they're more reliable.

Please don't, unless you find some overwhelming reason to. I think that it's fine as-is and people are overreacting.

MarinePikachu
28th Mar 2014, 00:01
Well really, you should not be able to kite a reaver that's in melee range anyway, that was only working because hits were so inconsistent before.

I was kiting (moving backwards in a circular motion)before aim assist god nerfed so that means they were missing back then. Thats my point they should miss if they are completely off. Theres a difference between missing a swing that is locked on target vs a swing that totally missed the target.

Saturnity
28th Mar 2014, 01:48
I'm going to play on this build for a bit before passing judgement. There's been a considerable amount of improvements to vampries which may have some unintended consequences.

As it stands most players are going to be used to the broken vamp hit detection that was just fixed, so now vamps will be just as deadly as they were in alpha when they get close. Couple this with a buffed shadowbomb and new abilities and it's going to seem crazy for a while. Personally I got stomped by a 4 reaver stack on a 4-30 round today :P

I want to say that sweeping kick seems too strong atm. It's a better version of leap attack with only 4s more CD. With a solid 340 dmg plus the stun it leads to some crazy combos. I will have to use this ability and have it used more on me though. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Leap attack got a huge buff with the release of shadow step. Having two movement options is incredibly powerful, especially now that melee attacks are reliable.

MasterFurbz
28th Mar 2014, 03:20
We'll keep an eye on it. We might need to reduce the hit check distance on melee attacks, or reduce the damage a little bit, now that they're more reliable.

A damage reduction would be more palpable than a hitbox reduction. Atm cross-region play is manageable once again and I would hate to see that go away :(

There's going to be a lot more wailing and gnashing of teeth now that we have essentially opened the floodgates with founders packs. You might want to take the next few days worth of feedback with an extra grain of salt Corey.

-That being said, shadowstep shouldn't be useable while bola'd by a hunter. Considering that the skill can be used both offensively and defensively (with a low CD) it outpaces evasion currently.

-Sweeping kick needs a small damage reduction. It averages out more dmg than leap attack in close range and furthermore can be used in ways the other pounces cannot (i.e. knocking people into gas, off buildings, etc)

Prime_Abstergo
28th Mar 2014, 09:07
Where are these "more reliable hits" people are getting suddenly? The vamp melee doesn't appear to be any different whatsoever to me, I haven't noticed any change, attacks that should hit are still missing and the hitbox is still too small.Please don't be silly. Melee definitely has become more accurate and more reliable.
I've noticed it because since the patch..
I. NEVER. MISS. PEOPLE.

Khalith
28th Mar 2014, 09:11
Please don't be silly. Melee definitely has become more accurate and more reliable.
I've noticed it because since the patch..
I. NEVER. MISS. PEOPLE.

I'm not being facetious here. I played a few games today as vamp and I swear I didn't notice any difference, at all.

Prime_Abstergo
28th Mar 2014, 09:19
I'm not being facetious here. I played a few games today as vamp and I swear I didn't notice any difference, at all. Okay lets assume you didn't notice any difference as a vamp but haven't you noticed how much faster you become dead when a -regular- reaver get close to you?

Prime_Abstergo
28th Mar 2014, 09:20
I'm not being facetious here. I played a few games today as vamp and I swear I didn't notice any difference, at all. Okay lets assume you didn't notice any difference as a vamp but haven't you noticed how much faster you become dead when a -regular- reaver (not only reaver ofc. dont get me wrong) get close to you?

Khalith
28th Mar 2014, 09:26
Okay lets assume you didn't notice any difference as a vamp but haven't you noticed how much faster you become dead when a -regular- reaver (not only reaver ofc. dont get me wrong) get close to you?

Nope, I haven't. I'm dying just as quickly as I always did. Again, I swear I'm not joking, I'm dead serious, I haven't noticed any difference, at all.

MarinePikachu
28th Mar 2014, 21:49
Nope, I haven't. I'm dying just as quickly as I always did. Again, I swear I'm not joking, I'm dead serious, I haven't noticed any difference, at all.

Ive heard you say you are bad at humans, so yeah if you were bad before then you aren't going to notice it now as you will still be dieing a lot. A lot of my alpha friends have noticed that there is a big difference (dieing a lot more).

Khalith
28th Mar 2014, 22:32
Ive heard you say you are bad at humans, so yeah if you were bad before then you aren't going to notice it now as you will still be dieing a lot. A lot of my alpha friends have noticed that there is a big difference (dieing a lot more).

That is true, I am bad at them, I admit to that regularly.