PDA

View Full Version : WEAPONS Vampire Melee feels clunky to newcomers (Bad for sales)



DaiReaver
26th Mar 2014, 19:39
Hi all,
This is mainly aimed directly at the Dev's themselves.

My first impression when trying out Nosgoth as a vampire was confusion. This confusion was due simply to being bound along one direction while attacking with a standard melee attack, even when not charged up. This was doubly frustrating as having played a human primarily in my first game, i could move and fire at the same time.

So what this means to the newcomer is 'an immediate feeling of unresponsive combat'. This is not good for playability or sales as it may put many newcomers off as they feel they are having to fight the controls at first.

My analysis of how i would expect the combat mechanic to work for vampires as a newcomer would be:

- Quick clicking melee attacks while also permitting movement/turning much like in any other games. For this example.. consider games like Warband / War of the Roses / Skyrim. (If the vampires strength is the reason behind not doing this.. then make the attack weaker, also give humans a way to disengage).

- Charged click - exactly as you have it now, if the button is held, they charge up and can turn, then when released they charge along that direct vector/line.

- Other abilities... work great, you've done a great job on the variation and general 'feel' of these mechanics.

So the only bugbear in the combat is there is no attack which permits 'free movement' to the vampire. When up close they shouldn't feel clunky and unresponsive, a good player as a human can potentially run circles around a vampire who is restricted in movement in melee.

I only mention now that i'm a games programmer myself within the industry to hopefully add a little weight to what i'm about to say:

If it were me coding it up.. I'd adjust it by:
- Reducing the power of Vampire SingleClick Melee slightly
- Remove the 'auto-aim' of SingleClick Melee and give free movement to the user.
- Provide humans with an 'escape' from melee. (Possible grenade/spray they could use which is toxic to the vamps). Note: If the humans are able to use a spray or grenade as an escape (3rd unchangeable ability?), then it would need a respectable cooldown time, and also have a short duration, just long enough for the vamp to have to back off a bit. I would also say that the grenade/spray should not cause damage, perhaps a severe visual imparement/burred screen for example, and have them unable to attack while they are within the proximity of the grenade/spray.

In this situation:
- The human can back off enough to then dodge and resume attacking.
- The vamp can back off and either disengage with their reduce damage ability for the hit and run tactic, or can disengage then continue to persue the human who will have to wait before being able to use the ability again giving the vampire a 2nd chance to slay the human through melee.

So i believe this would produce a better 'feel' for controlling the characters, and should hopefully produce a nice balance between the conflicts.

Hopefully the comments will be well received, and it would be very helpful to have other players comment on these concepts and specify whether they agree/disagree and also state why, along with any modifications/suggestions to resolve the same issue.

Cheers.
- DaiReaver.

ThatsNotMyPirate
26th Mar 2014, 20:40
Hi DaiReaver

Honestly the melee attack right now is awesome. I have been on for months now. Last patch there was an problem with the melee where it auto aimed for us. It made it so humans could circle around vampires and never get hit. (This isn't how this game is meant to be played)

Auto aim has been removed this patch, which is awesome news. Now we can finally hit. There is a learning curve which you are now having problems with but Nosgoth IS a hard game. It is a very strong team based game. In time you will get the hang of it. Us vets now land almost 100% of our hits now where before it was like below 40%.

Also, humans shouldn't have Escapes


I know you are very new so you don't know how this game is meant to be played. For Humans, their goal is to keep the vampires at bay, keep them as far away as you can. If you slip up and let a vampire get in your face, Your suppose to be f***ed.

Turn up your sensitivity to about 70% and see how that works for you! Good luck!

DaiReaver
26th Mar 2014, 21:01
Thanks for the reply, i am steadily getting the hang of it and i believe that given time i may indeed be of similar opinions to yourself.

My concern is mainly the initial impression that gamers will gain from those first 3-ish games they will play. If they find the control system restrictive due to the melee single click attack being slow and unresponsive and not letting you move, then many players will be turned away from it and may not desire to get used to it. Unfortunately those first few games of any game need to ensure that there is a basic useability where the user doesn't feel like they are fighting the controls, otherwise it has the likely effect of stunting the number of players who would otherwise play the game.

After spending a little more time, i find that it's better to hold the attack for a slight moment, turn to aim and then release.. as quick as possible and i'll generally land a hit. So i accept for a moment i'm going to be rooted to the spot while i'm permitted to turn, because as soon as i release the button i'll be bound to that direction.

So i do indeed see how the mechnic is being used, and being a fan of the series, i am prepared to pursue and practise and learn how better to use it.. though i do fear people who have no attachment to the series and pick it up as a new game may not continue with it if the movement is restrictive.

ThatsNotMyPirate
26th Mar 2014, 21:20
Happy to hear it and I do see the fear. But this is just closed beta. There maybe a A.I training or something before the release. So who knows

Also if you are a fan of the series you should join us sometime on may play through of Soul Reaver 1 since I have never played.

Here was part one start at like 5 mins. I'm joined by most of the fans on the forums.

Part 1 - http://www.twitch.tv/thatsnotmypirate/b/513944696

Ygdrasel
27th Mar 2014, 08:03
Nosgoth: Easy to learn, tough to master. ;)

Rhorge
27th Mar 2014, 18:58
The melee is perfectly fine. Without the rooting is would feel floaty and vampires would be difficult to counter at close range. They have more than enough ways of avoiding damage and side movement while attacking would really unbalance the game.

Saturnity
28th Mar 2014, 08:07
Some sort of tutorial to let new players mess with the controls would really fix the problem. The melee system is straightforward enough, it just takes a few minutes of swinging to get used to it.

RainaAudron
28th Mar 2014, 10:46
Melee has been definitely improved, it feels fine for me - be happy you didn´t play the pre-update melee which was barely hitting anything xP

Khalith
28th Mar 2014, 10:50
Melee has been definitely improved, it feels fine for me - be happy you didn´t play the pre-update melee which was barely hitting anything xP

Has it really been improved then? I have not noticed a single difference, maybe it's just me?

PencileyePirate
28th Mar 2014, 13:36
Has it really been improved then? I have not noticed a single difference, maybe it's just me?

Well for one, "barely hitting anything" is an exaggeration. The zero-damage hits were far more prevalent in high-latency games, so if you've been keeping to your region, you may not have noticed them in the first place.

However, there has definitely been a reduction of zero-damage hits since the most recent patch. It doesn't make aiming easier, but if your aim is on target you should find that vampire melee is doing damage more reliably.

Ygdrasel
31st Mar 2014, 19:28
Some sort of tutorial to let new players mess with the controls would really fix the problem. The melee system is straightforward enough, it just takes a few minutes of swinging to get used to it.

There is a tutorial. Literally just start playing and you'll learn.

Psyonix_Corey
31st Mar 2014, 20:18
Tutorial is coming