PDA

View Full Version : ABILITIES Roundhouse Kick needs to be reworked.



Poppios
26th Mar 2014, 19:02
Having a main ability of this caliber is absurd. Every vampire main attack has a Sound indicator so you have some sort of a chance to dodge/avoid it. Not this, all a vampire needs to do is run (silent already) and you can be kicked all over the place with ZERO chance of defense and the ability seems to lack any downfall after using it. Kick and instantly evade or shadow step away.

In 4 games today there was no less then 3 reavers EVERY round using it. Yes it may be new but I don't see how it got past Q-A not seeing the issue of multiple players using the same skill and imbalancing the game heavily.

PencileyePirate
26th Mar 2014, 19:28
I haven't used it yet as a vampire but as a human I don't think it's a problem. There's plenty of chance to dodge/avoid it, you just have to rely on sight rather than sound.

ThatsNotMyPirate
26th Mar 2014, 20:50
a vampire needs to do is run (silent already) and you can be kicked all over the place with ZERO chance of defense and the ability seems to lack any downfall after using it. Kick and instantly evade or shadow step away.

Humans should be watching each others back, when he kicks he is open to attacks. If a Reaver sneaks pasts your team and gets behind you, you deserve to be kick.... Don't know what else to tell you, and if he evades and shadow steps away, they are 1 vampire down in a fight and if they don't go in. You have time to heal. Just give it time to find out how to counter.

Khalith
26th Mar 2014, 20:55
The kick is pretty easy to dodge, I didn't get hit by it at all unless my team wasn't covering me or I wasn't watching my back correctly, once I know a reaver has it I can tell easily enough to stay away from him as he needs to run in to do it. Plus, if you see a reaver running around and never crouching it's a pretty obvious tell he's running the kick instead of the leap. Also, with the wind up for the kick, if you react fast enough you can get out of it's path and not take the damage while he's locked in the animation.

I honestly believe that pounce is still the better ability simply because of the range + ambush factor, if it were up to me I would put the kick in the Q ability and give it as an option over the smoke/gas bomb.

Harfax
27th Mar 2014, 01:07
It's the only vampire special without a sound effect and that alone should tell you that it needs one. I have been using it all day and I can assure you it needs a re-work. After a kick you have enough time to charge a full power attack before the stun is over and that in itself is too much.

It needs a sound at the very least and probably a reduced stun time to bring it in line with other vamp powers.

Thestreetuluv
27th Mar 2014, 02:30
The kick if anything needs either
a.a small tone down in damage
or
b.a increased in cooldown
or
c.does reduced damage when hitting more then one target when you do ur flying kick of death.

its only crazy because yes no notification but the trade-off (since we now have shadowstep) is pretty good. but hey it might just be because everyone and there mother is using shadowstep/kick right now lol

TendrilSavant
27th Mar 2014, 04:45
Adding a turn rate cap to Sweep Kick might also be an option. I've had people dodge behind me only to still get kicked because I can turn so much during the ability.

Ygdrasel
27th Mar 2014, 07:42
It's the only vampire special without a sound effect and that alone should tell you that it needs one.

This logic is flawed. There is no rule anywhere stating that every vampire special NEEDS a sound effect so no, this doesn't tell you anything.


the issue of multiple players using the same skill and imbalancing the game heavily.

First off, multiple players using the same skill doesn't really imbalance anything or, if it does, it weakens their own team and that's less a game imbalance than a tactical error on their part. I've played against many a team running all Reavers with pounce or all Sentinels. They can be held off well enough.

As for the Kick...They literally run up and kick you. Unless you're blind, you have all the indication you need. And other vampire abilities have sound indicators because it makes sense to have it. Reaver growls while skulking around for a pounce target, Tyrant kinda grunts and stomps during a Charge, Sentinel gives a bird-ish cry before swooping in. What do you want, a karate-kid-esque cry before a kick?

There's also the fairly obvious wind-up so...Yeah, visual indicators are plenty enough.


Adding a turn rate cap to Sweep Kick might also be an option. I've had people dodge behind me only to still get kicked because I can turn so much during the ability.

Now this is a point. Being able to turn and redirect a Kick is kind of odd in general....

Khalith
27th Mar 2014, 07:47
What do you want, a karate-kid-esque cry before a kick?

That would be epic, I want this just because I think it would be awesome.

Tube_Reaver
27th Mar 2014, 08:11
I think the ability is fine as it is.
The fact that the reaver has to either run up to you or even shadow step to you (wasting his escape) just to land a kick, is a big risk and thus it should be rewarded.

The kick isn't like a pounce, where the reaver can just hide somewhere on a roof and jump you (thus the need for the sound effect), the kick is very much an all in ability that will only work if you are in close proximity to the target, and as it takes up your main ability slot, then the only means of a gap closer you have is also your only escape and you forgo haste or evasion.

What I also want to add is the new dynamic and playstyle it adds to the reaver as a class. No longer do reavers have to hold down RMB and growl as they wait for an opportunity to pounce. It's a very much risk-reward ability and I am loving it.

Prime_Abstergo
27th Mar 2014, 08:33
Either kick needs some lovely NERF or Leap attack needs to be buffed. Period.

1. its damage (360) is TOO high, much higher then Leap attack damage (median dmg of which is 260-280)
2. it has no sound effect in comparison to Leap attack
3. it can be utilized on a rooftops/gas traps while Leap attack doesn't even stun an enemy

Boreaquis
27th Mar 2014, 15:44
Either kick needs some lovely NERF or Leap attack needs to be buffed. Period.

1. its damage (360) is TOO high, much higher then Leap attack damage (median dmg of which is 260-280)
2. it has no sound effect in comparison to Leap attack
3. it can be utilized on a rooftops/gas traps while Leap attack doesn't even stun an enemy

However, Leap Attack is a much more versatile skill, so you really can't compare solely on the basis of up-close damage potensial. Leap Attack is still viable because it allows you to chase down and finish weakened humans, or escape when you're in a bad spot.

Tube_Reaver
27th Mar 2014, 15:52
Also leap attack does stagger the enemy briefly, and it can be used from a good distance when compared to sweeping kick which requires you to be in melee range.

Omhxyz
27th Mar 2014, 16:32
Leap also deal more damage, its 250 only if you are in MELEE range... That 2 skill isn't even comparable, if leap was to do more damage, then pounce would be useless.

For the sound effects, all other main vampire skills are used from a range, this is a melee attack, what kinda sound effect do you expect from a melee attack? Either way it would be too late for you to respond to a sound anyway. And to be honest, like thatsnotmypirate mentioned, if a reaver gets that close without anyone noticing, well you deserve to be kicked.

As for the turning rate, i think it is fine. humans can already dodge it, having a deadzone would just kill the skill. And it is a skill you don't wanna have a deadzone with, as you can't really use it with evasion(mobility reasons), you have 0 defense. You miss that hit, chances are pretty high you are dead. Not to mention it has an animation a lot slower than melee hits and even melee hits are dodge-able sometimes. You think it looks a little odd? Have you seen tyrant shockwave :(.

You want more cooldown on it? No other main reaver skill is over 12 second cooldown and you are giving up a hard CC/mobility skill to use kick. Kick is fine, give it a little time before start whining PLEASE. After 6 months we finally got new skills, so everyone using them, soo get ready to kicked around for a little while.

TheMalgot
27th Mar 2014, 18:16
Voting for a rework of the kick.

PencileyePirate
27th Mar 2014, 19:24
After being on the receiving end of that kick quite a bit more, I wonder if either knockdown should be eliminated or damage should be lessened slightly (maybe only reduced from 350 to 300.) Of those two options, I'd personally prefer that the knockdown be removed.

However, I'm still not 100% convinced that it needs a nerf.

Viridian24
27th Mar 2014, 19:48
As it currently stands, I think the knockdown is a bit obnoxious. Maybe I'm just not used to getting my butt kicked in yet, but it certainly feels pretty strong.

It seems like the biggest argument for/against the kick is mostly skill-based. As in, "If you let a vampire get that close to you, you deserve to be kicked," I've seen arguments like these over skills and classes in a ton of other games, and it sometimes boils down to a skill is really OP in low-skill matches, because it's easy to use and easy to counter, but no one's skilled enough to realize how to counter it. While at high-level gameplay it's balanced or too weak because they can see it coming from a mile away and react accordingly.

When/if Nosgoth gets to tournament-level play, then the really "OP" skills will shine, because everyone will see what any given skill can do at maximum effectiveness, in the hands of a professional player, against another professional player of similar skill.

Strike5150
28th Mar 2014, 14:02
I've used the kick and I've been attacked by the kick. I've also played a number of matches against arguably the best reaver in the game right now or at least as good as any other Ohmz.

I can tell you that the only thing I would change right now that I feel MIGHT need a nerf is the length of the stun. Currently its long enough that in most cases a reaver can fully charge a melee attack before I can counter with knives.

That would mean 350dmg from the kick plus a fully charged melee strike which is also 400+? I can't remember now. That is 750 damage for landing a kick which is maybe a little unfair.

Other than that there is a huge loss to mobility for the reaver and its quite difficult to get in close enough to land a kick against skilled humans. Its a momentum based skill and you need to play a little different to counter it.

MarinePikachu
28th Mar 2014, 18:59
What I hate about kick is you cant dodge it. I always try to dodge to the side and even have had cases dodging and ending up behind the reaver but still always get hit which to me is ridiculous. You may say "Well you shouldnt have let the reaver be next to you" but there is really no sound from the kick and with shadowstep it is hard not to let reavers slip through sometimes. I feel like the kick should only be able to hit a target from the direction it was started not a 360 area around it.

Psyonix_Eric
28th Mar 2014, 19:18
Just so everyone is aware, this skill as well as Shadow Step and Air Strike weren't originally intended to go out in their current form but they accidentally did. Since some people had already purchased them before Square was able to disable them we felt it best to just release them so everyone had a chance at them.

That being said, we're reading all of these threads and we're very aware of some imbalances that may be going on with the skills. The best we can ask is to just keep the good ideas coming, don't get too angry about them in their current state, and bear with us while we try to balance them. :)

MordaxPraetorian
28th Mar 2014, 23:48
I've not fought with or against the roundhouse kick yet, however it would surprise me a heck of a lot if an ability that caused a vampire to give up it's primary form of mobility and have to walk up to an opponent was overpowered and needed nerfing

I think what we're seeing here is a knee jerk reaction to a new ability for which a counter is not immediately obvious

Saturnity
29th Mar 2014, 06:27
The thing with sweeping kick is that it's such a powerful teamfight skill and all you're giving up is an initiation option. Being able to walk into a fight that was already initiated and plop down the effects of a tyrant charge (with full character control, hardly any windup, and perfect aim) really messes with the current balance.

I've even seen it hit multiple people at once, but that's a problem with the humans' positioning.

Omhxyz
29th Mar 2014, 11:11
I'll agree on strike with the length of stun, even as a reaver it is annoying. I want to be agile and keep attacking, instead you are forced to do a charged attack because of the long duration damage resistance the stun/knockback gives.

Boreaquis
29th Mar 2014, 12:13
I'll agree on strike with the length of stun, even as a reaver it is annoying. I want to be agile and keep attacking, instead you are forced to do a charged attack because of the long duration damage resistance the stun/knockback gives.

As another person who loves Sweeping Kick, I agree. Reducing the stun would make it a worse team-fight skill, as it might be a bit too good at disabling humans at the moment.

ThatsNotMyPirate
29th Mar 2014, 15:10
Now at first I didn't see a problem with the kick.

But now as I've been playing this patch longer, I am seeing teams go 4 reavers, 3-4 kicks, and just owning. Reaver is my main and even I think it is a bit silly in some ways.

Now lets break down why cause people will get the wrong idea.

First off, the skill itself isn't op. It is a melee range move and it is a walk up and kick move. This part isn't broken. The skill itself is fine I believe.

But what i am seeing is stacking kicks is to strong, Humans can get kicked again to soon as they are getting up, the damage isn't as strong but they do get CCed again.

Human play is based on being in position to help your allies, but if you are to close a kick will cc more of you. If you are two far, the other two reavers will be kicking you and CCing. So why is kick different then other CC?

Lets look at Tyrants. They CC, but with each CC, Humans have time to react before Tyrants make their next move.(other then shock wave but this move is harder to use) So 1v1 Human vs Tyrant, hunters have time to bola, Scouts have time to knives. Humans have a change, small but they do.

Kick is effective on multiply people AND it's a harder CC (and does more damage then Ground slam). Putting Reaver on top for CC I believe. Kick three people and you can still react before they do.

Now I understand that this skill wasn't meant to go out this way, I really do. I don't know the fix you have in mind but I have a pretty good one to fix these problems.

1. Lower the base damage, but up the damage on hitting walls / lower ground.

I really like the knocking someone off a high spot and them taking extra damage. Positioning a kick should be rewarding.

2.
A)If kicking more then one humans. The primary target gets hard CCed(the one aimed or hit first), the others lands on feet, still cced and can react when reaver can.

This still rewards kicking more then one person with damage and cc on all of them. But it gives the players time to react to what is happening vs 1 reaver. 1 Reaver shouldn't cc 3 people and still get the first move on all of them.

B)OR Hitting more then one human lowers the over all damage on them all(damage splits) and the CC is the same.

3. This has been said by other players. Making turning on kick harder so it has to be aimed right.

It would also be cool to charge the kick to have a longer range like you do with melee attacks(Sausage credit for this idea). This leaves you open but I believe this is fine as long as its harder to turn the kick.

4. Humans have to be able to get on their feet before being kicked again so they have time to at least roll.

Tell me what you guys think.

Khalith
29th Mar 2014, 15:25
TBH I think the amount of stuns/cc's in this game is too high across the board and performing them one after another is ridiculous.

Dive bomb then get charged then get wingflapped is just as lame as knife -> bola -> bola as soon as the first one breaks. The kick is only a part of the greater problem in my opinion.

WhiteFlameKyo
29th Mar 2014, 15:56
TBH I think the amount of stuns/cc's in this game is too high across the board and performing them one after another is ridiculous.

Dive bomb then get charged then get wingflapped is just as lame as knife -> bola -> bola as soon as the first one breaks. The kick is only a part of the greater problem in my opinion.

I even made a thread on stunlocks and watching Nosgoth instead of playing it (seriously, sometimes it becomes a noninteractive movie - from 1050 HP to 0 without being able to do anything) when we were still in alpha. Unfortunately it seemed no one else was bothered by this.

Khalith
29th Mar 2014, 16:11
I even made a thread on stunlocks and watching Nosgoth instead of playing it (seriously, sometimes it becomes a noninteractive movie - from 1050 HP to 0 without being able to do anything) when we were still in alpha. Unfortunately it seemed no one else was bothered by this.

I'm pretty vocal about my opinion on this, but it is an issue. I don't think buffing tenacity is a solution either, otherwise it will become the only perk worth using and since vamps don't really have an equivalent option it would push the meta even more in favor of the humans, plus tenacity doesn't even change the duration of knockdowns.

Oroibahazopi
29th Mar 2014, 17:44
I don't see how people can be getting stunlocked as humans unless they're playing way out of position.

ThatsNotMyPirate
29th Mar 2014, 20:40
TBH I think the amount of stuns/cc's in this game is too high across the board and performing them one after another is ridiculous.

Dive bomb then get charged then get wingflapped is just as lame as knife -> bola -> bola as soon as the first one breaks. The kick is only a part of the greater problem in my opinion.

People don't have a problem with it because Vampires and Humans can both "Combo" for the CC. Chain cc is a part of the game, and it takes skill to pull this off. Humans have counters to it just as humans do.

You just haven't played the game long enough to get it worked out. If all 4 vampires cced 1 guy, they are left open. If they CC your whole team. Your team was very poorly positioned. So on and So on.

DX2014
29th Mar 2014, 21:21
I'd take a slight damage reduction or a tightening of the turning circle.
The CC port I'm unsure of as we have yet to see at least 2 human character classes. My point being that we don't know what tricks they have tucked away that could change the tide completely. Atm sweeping kick is new and a lot of fun to play with but it won't be everybody's favourite forever. It does miss and you are open to taking damage during the animation.

Pirate has given us a lot to think about so this skill can be tweaked in a variety of ways.
The only other thing to mention is that it wasn't ready to be released yet but slipped through the cracks.
It just means Vampires are having a little more fun this current patch compared to last months aim misery.

Omhxyz
29th Mar 2014, 21:37
Why the duplicate topic? Exactly same thing here http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=11704 , still on same page...

Khalith
29th Mar 2014, 22:32
You just haven't played the game long enough to get it worked out. If all 4 vampires cced 1 guy, they are left open. If they CC your whole team. Your team was very poorly positioned. So on and So on.

I've played the game since alpha, that's long enough to have an opinion on this topic. I am well aware of the potential for combo CC's, I happen to think the ability to do so in the current incarnation is a bit ridiculous.