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View Full Version : MISC. Closed Beta Feedback: Humans rely on teammates too much



Nokturnelx
25th Mar 2014, 05:53
So played about 10 games or so and glanced over the store.

Love the way Vampires have great synergy but I feel the humans need way better synergy.

Having bad teammates on Vampires isn't so bad cause if you play your class correctly it's fine, , but having bad teammates as a human makes you want to rage out and stop playing.

Vampires can CC humans really easily and it relies on your teammates to save you. With bad teammates you just sit there getting owned without being able to fight back... being stun-locked is never fun in any moba period. There needs to be either items or abilities that allow humans to defend themselves against being stunlocked that doesn't rely on their teammates to not be morons. (Yea I know you can do the rain of arrows and firewall but that doesn't unstun you, it just hurts the vampires... and yourself lol, currently the best way to get a vampire off of you is have your teammate shoot it in the face, which is fine and dandy when your teammates aren't mentally challenged... but when your teammates are too stupid to shoot vampires off of you... you spend the entire game unable to fight back due to being stunlocked)

I understand that I could easily just play with 3 friends and never solo queue but not everyone has 3 friends on their peck and call anytime they want to play Nosgoth, so making it so Humans aren't so insanely reliant on their teammates would be great.

All in all game is pretty fun but definitely needs more classes and game modes. A human class that is good at melee combat especially. (Even the odds in close quarters)

WhiteFlameKyo
25th Mar 2014, 10:39
Having bad teammates on Vampires isn't so bad cause if you play your class correctly it's fine, , but having bad teammates as a human makes you want to rage out and stop playing.

Actually, from my experience it's the other way around. You can do a little bit more by yourself as a human. Almost always I'm able to kill a vampire in a one on one fight as an alchemist, if I use all my skills. But try to kill a hunter as a reaver. Your HP will drop two times faster than his and he doesn't even need to use his skills.



A human class that is good at melee combat especially.

You can just use hunter. As I said, he's (too) good in close combat.
Also, if humans get a melee class, then vampires should get a class that attacks from distance. Which wouldn't make sense.

Typhuss
25th Mar 2014, 10:59
I think the problem you are facing is that you get picked of by reavers am I right? The thing is when you get bounced and fall to the ground human team can really punish the vampire unless he gets about the perfect bounce and knock you of a wall or something so that your team can't help you. So rather than humans being to weak I would say you have just had a poorly skilled team mates.

It's true, I think, vampires might be easier side to win with if you have just "solo" players. But I would imagine that if the humans coordination is improved you will feel like humans actually might be the ones on top of the match. Now with that you can help your team and by that help yourself. Communicate, teach new players, give out tips and encourage team behavior. By doing that I'm sure you will find your time playing as human side much more pleasing. That goes to the vampire side too.

The thing I like about this game is that you can't just beat enemy on your own. Ok, sometimes you might carry your team and yes it might be easier to do so as vampire but I would say you still need your team mates if not anything else then to distract enemy team so you can get close. Over all I think the game is really nicely balanced and I hope you can get some good games to your belt to really see it too. :]

Typhuss
25th Mar 2014, 11:03
Actually, from my experience it's the other way around. You can do a little bit more by yourself as a human. Almost always I'm able to kill a vampire in a one on one fight as an alchemist, if I use all my skills. But try to kill a hunter as a reaver. Your HP will drop two times faster than his and he doesn't even need to use his skills.

Exactly that. Hunter can be, in skilled hands especially, a true menace to a vampire team. If your aim is true you will just pick them off one by one.

Monowar
25th Mar 2014, 14:47
I think it is a good design decision to make the humans rely on team-mates more. It increases the immersion sooooo much that it definitely is my favorite part of this game right now.

Picture it like this:

You and your human brethren are relunctant soldiers, fighting a war you know you cannot win. You come from a wide variety of backgrounds - some of you are warriors, some of you scouts, some may dabble in the ancient and arcane arts of alchemy. But in the face of the Vampire Clans that have ruled over you for so long - in the face of the overlords that turned your entire race to cattle - you must band together.

The cities your ancestors once called home now crawl with their undead, leech-corpses - always ready to pounce on an unsuspecting prey. In such a situation humans MUST band together; they MUST watch each other's backs - for if you do not stand together you will soon not stand at all.

The vampires are a different story alltogether.

With their Primarchs lost, the once proud Vampires of Nosgoth are slowly being reduced to what they were before Kain's rise to power - mere animalistic predators vying for territory. Sure, the vampires must work together to take out the human rebels but their's is so much more of an alliance of convenience than anything else.

Every vampire competes with each other for more blood to satisfy their hunger: more carnage to pacify the hole where their soul used to be. As such personal skill is more important for vampires - after all they are trying to establish their domination, not only over humans but also over their rival Clans.

Minsoinch
3rd Apr 2014, 13:21
The current balance of the game does encourage team-work.

Human are naturally in a defensive position which in turn requires strong team-work to be successful. While the Vamps are more aggressive and fall into an attacking position and again requires strong team-work.

My issues is that: it's much easiler for the Vamp to work together. In an aggressive position, the player just have to wait for someone to initiate and follow through. Any of the current three classes can effectively initiate which creates more opportunity for good team-play. As long as the player understands his/her class then very little communication is required. The Humans are sitting ducks, they are waiting for the attack to counter. They require communication to be effective and perhaps alot of players will use Team-speak or any other third-party communication software in the future. Implementing a "Quick-Command" or even a "Spot-System" would allow players to communicate without third-party software.

Personally, I would like to see the system used in Left 4 Dead, where when an player spots an enemy the system auto trigger calls "I see a Reaver" or when a pounce is triggered the character to call out for "help". I found it to be a very good system to keep the immersion and maintain balance. (you could even sell voice packs :) )

Strike5150
4th Apr 2014, 12:12
Hehe I played a 2v6 with Plux the other day, wow was that fun! I mean we lost but not by much. So I have to agree that playing together is so much fun and immersive I wouldn't want to trade it to make the game feel better when you teammates aren't really that great.

We coordinated our stuns and staggered our attacks, I took a couple hits while he was low health and he punished them for not being able to reach him. I can't remember having that much fun in a game in a while! It was a super fun challenge that we thoroughly enjoyed. Glory to 200g! It was more difficult to do this as vampire, because 6 humans can be sooo nasty while trying to engage. We settled on reavers, smoke, shadowstep and kick. This gave us the best mobility and ability to escape massive crossfire or failed attacks.

I also need to point out that you can dodge reaver pounces. I dodge at least 50% of them now, you need to get used to the timing. When you hear a growel wait until your gut says NOW and dodge. You will have good success rate dodging those suckers. And when they miss punish them hard.

Emjay86
5th Apr 2014, 19:42
I thought the whole point of this game was to encourage teamwork?

Also I LOVE the way that the Vampires are more powerful, it makes sense and its accurate to the lore. Its also a good way of creating that hunter being the hunted feeling.

I honestly think putting the Humans on a level-pegging with Vampires would be an atrocious undoing of this game and would just overall be a very bad thing.

Calverp
5th Apr 2014, 22:09
A human class that is good at melee combat especially. (Even the odds in close quarters)

Kinda missing the point of the game.

Viridian24
6th Apr 2014, 00:30
What's wrong with having to work as a team in a team-based game? I see nothing wrong with how it currently is. That's like arguing that real-time strategy games should be less reliant on strategy to win. Team deathmatch is team deathmatch.

Minsoinch
6th Apr 2014, 03:22
It's more about providing tools for the team to work more efficiently. Yes, I'm sure most gamers will have headsets and the current voice system would provide enough communication for players to play as a team. But I've yet to play a game where players use the standard "G" coms. Most players probably "friends" up and create a voice chat room within steam (or third-party-software) but that would be a pre-made. Then of course, there is always someone who doesnt have a mic, or is unable to talk due to whatever reason (perhaps the PC is a room being share with other people). Like I mention b4, once a player understands their class they can probably play without any communication, but it's about thoses who are learning their class and even the game.

Please note, I would also understand if the dev team didn't in a system to resolve this. But in my opinion I feel it would be a nice touch to a team base game.

Emjay86
6th Apr 2014, 13:48
It's more about providing tools for the team to work more efficiently. Yes, I'm sure most gamers will have headsets and the current voice system would provide enough communication for players to play as a team. But I've yet to play a game where players use the standard "G" coms. Most players probably "friends" up and create a voice chat room within steam (or third-party-software) but that would be a pre-made. Then of course, there is always someone who doesnt have a mic, or is unable to talk due to whatever reason (perhaps the PC is a room being share with other people). Like I mention b4, once a player understands their class they can probably play without any communication, but it's about thoses who are learning their class and even the game.

Please note, I would also understand if the dev team didn't in a system to resolve this. But in my opinion I feel it would be a nice touch to a team base game.

You bring up a good point here. Even if its not adding voice comms it would be largely beneifical as it is in most FPS games if you could have some sort of character dialogue other than just when you spawn and kill. The standard orders and replies will do but most successful FPS games if not all of them have these in there. They arent a substitute for teamspeak or whatever but they certainly help coordinate things a little better in PUGs.

0Exroath0
6th Apr 2014, 13:53
Honestly I completely feel vampires have far too many skills and abilities that counter the human team, No matter how good a team of humans can be its still a tough fight. Vampires can have a terrible team and win without thinking with the current skill set.

And why is it that human aoe does so much damage to themselfs when that vampires have so much more health to can just ignore it.

Atm its basically the vampires counter the humans no matter the set up.. the humans basically get left to hope and survive.

Also that bloody auto aim pounce needs its damage drastically needs nerfs, its near impossible to dodge.

The smoke bomb also is far too strong in a match, If I cant see my team .. or anything how can I support them.

Calverp
6th Apr 2014, 18:00
Honestly I completely feel vampires have far too many skills and abilities that counter the human team, No matter how good a team of humans can be its still a tough fight. Vampires can have a terrible team and win without thinking with the current skill set.

And why is it that human aoe does so much damage to themselfs when that vampires have so much more health to can just ignore it.

Atm its basically the vampires counter the humans no matter the set up.. the humans basically get left to hope and survive.

Also that bloody auto aim pounce needs its damage drastically needs nerfs, its near impossible to dodge.

The smoke bomb also is far too strong in a match, If I cant see my team .. or anything how can I support them.


Not really, it's true that a human team is easy to fail at due to the need to watch each other's backs, but a poorly organised Vamp team will get destroyed against any half decent human team.
The smoke bomb is fine, though the choking hazard could do with tweaking, would be interested to try decreased damage or smaller radius.

ICantPauseItMom
6th Apr 2014, 22:00
That's how it should be!
Humans should have to watch each others back, ain't that what humans are known for in combat?
Working together is a key element for humans, and that's how it should remain.

darktemplar99
7th Apr 2014, 00:25
does the damage from multiple choking hazards stack? I only find choking hazard a problem when there are 3 or 4 of them. But a single one is actually very ineffective against spread out teams that all dodge.

Khalith
7th Apr 2014, 00:36
does the damage from multiple choking hazards stack?

Yes.

Calverp
7th Apr 2014, 10:07
does the damage from multiple choking hazards stack? I only find choking hazard a problem when there are 3 or 4 of them. But a single one is actually very ineffective against spread out teams that all dodge.

Yeah, when it's just one of them it's not too bad. But it's a bit flawed when a 3 Vamps can destroy a 4 man human team purely by all of them spamming CH.

Necrozuki
7th Apr 2014, 19:37
Actually that may allow some version of the Rahabim into the game. They could ranged spitters of some sort and they could put in some type of human Sarafan-ish spearman or something.