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View Full Version : ALCHEMIST Flamethrower quite OP



888Demon888
20th Mar 2014, 17:19
You can evade Alchemist Firewall but when it comes to Flamethrower it's almost impossible (+ according that vampires are close combat characters and Flamethrower turn Alchemist into close combat too with amazing damage and dps) actually Alchemist became supreme because:
1. He not gonna let anybody hit him (or his team if they are close)
2. He can't hurt himself
3. dps and dot unbelievable big (+ when you on fire you can't see well)
There one way to prevent that it's to abduct or jump on with reaver, but all santinels prefer not to become firefly and reaver's jump charge too slow to do that properly. And it's if there only one Alchemist in team, you can imagine what will happen if there will be more.

Khalith
20th Mar 2014, 18:11
Any stun will instantly stop the flamethrower. Tyrant's two ground slams, reaver pounce, wing flap, jump, adbuct, and in the future reaver will also have another stun move that has a knockback component to it. The alchemist flamethrower is very easily overcome once you know the alchemist is using it, actually I think it's too easy, against vamps that are looking for it it's largely useless as they will lock you down and kill you, almost always before you even have the chance to activate the stupid thing.

MrJesper
20th Mar 2014, 18:20
And with flamethrower alchemist can't use her cannon, so the ability is usefull only when your cannon is empty because u lost dps if your clip are full + poison cloud ability or firewall

Razaiim
20th Mar 2014, 19:43
Also, using flamethrower on an enraging tyrant is a death sentence, as they start to do massive, massive damage, and will gut you before you kill them

cmstache
20th Mar 2014, 20:35
Flamethrower is a finishing skill, and honestly still needs a step or two reach. But, of all the skills out there, why complain about Flamethrower???

Tureil
20th Mar 2014, 22:36
The flamethrower has pathetic range. All it takes is the targeted vampire to laugh, back up 4 steps, and let a buddy come in from behind and stun the Alchie. Like with a reaver pounce. Boom. Alch wasted damage output trying to "W+M1" enemies like some fresh Pyro player in TF2.

Korevas
20th Mar 2014, 22:50
Sorry, but if you don't see the gigantic tell of "do not just stand in this", you deserve to get roasted.

Personally, I see it more like a defensive skill usually. IMO, it is more useful for keeping vampires away for a short time then for actually killing them, but if you absolutely insist on standing in it for the entire duration, by all means, be my guest.

888Demon888
21st Mar 2014, 10:35
Any stun will instantly stop the flamethrower Yep, often if skill interrupted there is no cooldown, it is ready straight again.
All vampires need to get in close contact to do damage (poison grenade is not worth mention because of long cooldown time + easy to evade) and when you get there, Alch ready to roast your ass, so one Alch can fright all vamp team, + you can't see well distance, from where he can do damage, you just see cluster of fire.
Sorry, but if you don't see the gigantic tell of "do not just stand in this", you deserve to get roasted.
It's not a FireWall, it's turn on straight in one sec. and have 360 degree damage radius, so it's more effective than bola to control vampires. It's look like this, vamps attack, you try to do all damage you can, and when you need to retreat, just turn on Flamethrower (vamps will run away or die), so you totally control battlefield (all you need it's all your team get close to you)

cmstache
21st Mar 2014, 11:06
He flamehrower has a 1.5 second activation time. On top of that the cooldown starts whether the skill is active or not. Meaning even if its interrupted before its active its a 3-4 second down. And if you can't hit people consistently with poison grenade its a skill thing.

888Demon888
21st Mar 2014, 11:29
you CAN properly hit people with poison grenade only if they are NOOBS, because only noobs stay so close to each other that one grenade hit all team.

cmstache
21st Mar 2014, 11:39
He problem is people use CH as an initiator only. It has much more effectiveness in close quarters. Also hiding the throw helps immensely. For example jumping while turning and throwing makes players focus on you instead of the bomb.

888Demon888
21st Mar 2014, 12:10
Always better to throw grenade Before you attack, because if you quite dexterous (+evasion will help a lot) you have good chance to throw it second time (in the middle of the fight it will recharge and you can do double damage, cover your team or block the view\path to let your team heal and avoid damage)

888Demon888
21st Mar 2014, 16:07
it's not OP? 0_o 900 dmg for 4 sec yeah right, noooooo it's not OP, and it's when StormBow best shot it's 275 dmg but they call it OP (especially now, when vampires aim system work like shiiiiit)

killdrith
21st Mar 2014, 16:15
This seems like a ridiculous complaint to me. You can't sprint with the flamethrower and it takes 1 roll to get out of range. It takes 1.5 seconds to start up, and its DPS is lower than landing all of your grenade hits at that range.

888Demon888
21st Mar 2014, 16:51
You don't need to spint, when you using FT there 2 variants:
1. Vamp will run away
2. Vamp will burn to the ground
and that is all what they need, without at least one vamp it's turning into 3v4 or even worse... Even if vampire change target and will attack other human, Alch can quickly turn off FT and stuff his ass with good old bombs
1 roll to get out. Yep look above what will happen if you will roll somewhere
It takes 1.5 seconds to start up. It's starts faster then Scout's Sky Arrows and it's more effective then Sky Arrows
Oh yeah, if Alch will stand still then grenade will do more dmg (iteresting how you going to do that) he should stay in there 10-15 sec, Alch do more dmg for 4, now you see difference.
All what I want to say, that this game it's RANGED VS. MELEE, but FT changed it into MELEE VS MELEE

killdrith
21st Mar 2014, 16:59
Comparing FT to "sky arrows" is ridiculous. "Sky arrows" isn't channeled.
Again, for poison cloud, terrible comparison. NOT channeled.

FT has to compare with your MAIN weapon since it replaces it. Considering its short range and limited availability it should be better at that range than a main weapon. If it's less effective than a main weapon at short range then it has NO function.

FT is currently in the "Defensive ability" slot. It makes sense that vampires should temporarily backup when it is initiated.

WhiteFlameKyo
21st Mar 2014, 17:02
it's not OP? 0_o 900 dmg for 4 sec yeah right, noooooo it's not OP, and it's when StormBow best shot it's 275 dmg but they call it OP (especially now, when vampires aim system work like shiiiiit)

200+275=475. Two Storm Bow's shots and it's 950. And it's not even a skill, so no cooldowns or anything. Plus, you can shoot through the whole map.

I tried using the Flamethrower once in alpha and it didn't satisfy me at all. In my opinion Fire Wall is way better.

Nerfing the skill wouldn't affect me in any way, but I really see no reason. You just wait until the alchemist stops spitting fire or use your skills to counter it - you can easily grab an alchemist with a sentinel, even when they're using Flamethrower at the moment. Wing Flap and Pounce work too. Not to mention the tyrant and his stuns.
Seriously, I don't see any reason not to use the Fire Wall instead.


edit


FT changed it into MELEE VS MELEE

I once dropped from the roof to meet a lone hunter. We both had 100% HP. As a reaver I had managed to hit him 2-3 times, before he killed me. In a close combat. Without using skills. 1vs1. Here's you RANGED VS MELEE.

killdrith
21st Mar 2014, 17:04
This guy is talking like flamethrowers are decimating the battle fields when in reality you rarely see them because they have very limited use. In most situations flame wall is better.


I once dropped from the roof to meet a lone hunter. We both had 100% HP. As a reaver I had managed to hit him 2-3 times, before he killed me. In a close combat. Without using skills. 1vs1. Here's you RANGED VS MELEE.

Hunters DPS combined with their CC (crowd control) is currently a much larger problem than anything an alch can do.

888Demon888
21st Mar 2014, 18:41
now talking about 1v1 is ridiculous, without vampire auto aim, it's lucky if you killed smbdy 1v1
FT has to compare with your MAIN weapon since it replaces it sure, and when Scout throwing his knives it's does not replace his weapon? I think there MAIN WEAPONS and SKILLS, so compare SKILL with MAIN WEAPONS it's really funny
200+275=475. Two Storm Bow's shots and it's 950. And it's not even a skill, so no cooldowns or anything. Plus, you can shoot through the whole map. There one tiny difference, with bow you need to AIM, with FT you can just spin like top toy and that would be enough
Considering its short range and limited availability it should be better at that range than a main weapon. If it's less effective than a main weapon at short range then it has NO function.

FT is currently in the "Defensive ability" slot. It makes sense that vampires should temporarily backup when it is initiated.
I can't understand how close combat skill can be LESS effective than a main weapon if vamps are close combat CARRs, just stay closer to Alch and will be ok
Interesting, how you going to tell your team that you need to backup when it is initiated
This guy is talking like flamethrowers are decimating the battle fields when in reality you rarely see them because they have very limited use. In most situations flame wall is better. If someday there will be tournament in Nosgoth or just good team, and there will be 4 Alch, you will see what they can do just with FT

cmstache
21st Mar 2014, 19:03
First and foremost:
There is no such thing as a "defensive ability slot" There is "primary", and "secondary." Sure, many of them may lean towards defensive abilities, to say one slot favors defense over the other is just as incorrect as viewing either one of them as predominantly defensive. Bola on the hunter is in the primary, knives on the scout and on the primary, but firewall and healing mist are on the secondary. It varies per build. Making the assumption that one is more defensive or offensive is based on flawed logic.

Secondly:
Flamethrower does have higher DPS than the weapon. It has higher direct damage while aiming it at them, and the DoT is ALSO factored in, which the tooltip doesn't do for you. So the actual formula is "[damage/sec + (DoT / x seconds of duration)] + remaining DoT (If you really need numbers I can do them) = Damage of flamethrower. AND you don't take splash damage from it. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

Third:
You can't compare stormbow to flamethrower. Stormbow has virtually unlimited range, and isn't a skill. Also, you have to compensate for ping with the flamethrower, it's not hitscan.

Fourth: Realistically, flamethrower has more uses than flamewall does, the problem is that most people don't use flamethrower long enough to learn them. That's an experience issue, not a skill issue.

killdrith
21st Mar 2014, 21:04
sure, and when Scout throwing his knives it's does not replace his weapon? I think there MAIN WEAPONS and SKILLS, so compare SKILL with MAIN WEAPONS it's really funny

Poor comparison, as throwing knives are mainly an interrupt, fire immediately, and channel. FT replaces your main weapon and doesn't allow use of anything else during the entire usage (many seconds). No other human ability is similar.


If someday there will be tournament in Nosgoth or just good team, and there will be 4 Alch, you will see what they can do just with FT

Currently I have never seen any top NA players exclusively use the flamethrower. This is not definitive proof, but in more cases than not it means that it's not worthwhile.


There is no such thing as a "defensive ability slot" There is "primary", and "secondary."
I wasn't being literal. "lean towards"? By lean towards you mean that every other skill in that slot is defensive.. then yeah, lean towards. My calling it a defensive slot isn't based on something as loose as a slot name. It's based on what the skills that currently exist in that slot actually do.


Secondly:
Flamethrower does have higher DPS than the weapon. It has higher direct damage while aiming it at them, and the DoT is ALSO factored in, which the tooltip doesn't do for you. So the actual formula is "[damage/sec + (DoT / x seconds of duration)] + remaining DoT (If you really need numbers I can do them) = Damage of flamethrower. AND you don't take splash damage from it. Sounds like a sweet deal to me.

It has higher theoretical damage. Unlike projectile weapons it has a travel time that makes it more difficult to keep on opponents, especially if they're ANY good. I was saying that it does have more damage, and that if it didn't it would be worthless.

I used flamethrower a ton in the Alpha. I'm not a bad player and look for new uses for things frequently but I find fire wall more useful in more situations personally. I haven't used it for long periods of time in the closed beta, but I also haven't seen patch notes mention many changes. I'll try it some more, but I haven't ever seen anyone use it to "over powered" extents.

cmstache
21st Mar 2014, 22:23
Skills in the flamethrower spot aren't typically defensive, which was my point. It's a bad mindset to have. It's split pretty evenly.

Flamethrower got a buff towards the end of Alpha. It was fairly significant. And I use flamethrower probably half the time, if not a little higher with alchemists. And the alch's weapon is projectile too, unlike the others, so it's irrelevant.


But, in the end, I wasn't really responding to you originally, I was responding to 888Demon888 with that previous post. I was referring to his highlighted responses, although I don't know why if he truly thinks that ANY human skills control vampires as well as a bola.

Calverp
6th Apr 2014, 17:25
Yeah, I use the flamethrower a lot but it is by no means overpowered. 9/10 times when I activate it I do so knowing that I'm going to die but may take a vamp or two with me, and possibly an assist or two. Very rarely do vamps bother to run away, usually either a Tyrant lands on me or smacks the ground, I get pounced, or just plain melee'd to death.