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Aurang
3rd Apr 2010, 17:40
The forum is awfully dead right now, so I have something new to post which will hopefully generate some discussion.

During another discussion recently this topic came up once or twice, and at the time I found it interesting.


What is causing Nosgoth to die?

Naturally we think, "because the pillars are ruined/corrupt."


However we don't know a whole lot about the circumstances of the pillars creation, besides that they were a primary instrument in maintaining, "the binding," which I'm guessing is either the magic which makes the Hylden's existence reliant on the demon dimension, and/or the magic which continually reinforces the dimensional barriers between Nosgoth and the demon dimension.


The LoK wiki has this to say about the demon dimension (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Demon_dimension);


The Demon Realm is kept seperate from Nosgoth's Material Realm by the pillars. After the Hylden's creation, the Device defies natural law, unbalancing dimensional barriers.

Note: This is the only source I've read this particular detail on.


Now, we've all read about how in LoK, the ancient vampires tie all the essential elements/principles of Nosgoth to the pillars.

However, here is a question to consider;


Did they do this to maintain the dimensional barriers, or did they do this to prevent Nosgoth from deteriorating?

I'll clarify below.

Was the 'proximity' to the demon dimension killing Nosgoth before the creation of the pillars, or would Nosgoth only begin to die after the destruction of the pillars because of it's newfound dependance on them?

The first attributes Nosgoth's decay solely to the demon dimension and the wearing down of the dimensional barriers (allegedly[?]) caused by The Device, and the second attributes it solely to Nosgoth's life becoming dependant on the pillars.

In either case, if the pillars cease to function, Nosgoth begins to die.

THIRD OPTION (AKA Crackpot Theory)

The Elder God was killing Nosgoth, so he blamed it on the Hylden (after the war began) and nudged the ancient vampires into building the pillars, because they would have drank any kool aid he offered them.

This would help explain the major split between the Hylden and ancient vampires, as the Hylden might have realized what was happening, and being the more technological/scientific race, recognized the Elder God for what he was.

The Hylden were not immortal, so this is the most likely reason the Elder God told the ancient vampires try to eradicate them (although the vampires were arrogant and fanatical by themselves, so they probably didn't need much encouragement from the EG).


The Beast told Kain to find the Builder of the Device. Kain found it hard to believe that an individual so ancient could still be alive, and he said so. The Beast replied that the Builder could be found in the Eternal Prison. The time distortion there made it possible, as hours and years were frozen, causing the prisoners to pay for their crimes eternally.
-sauce (http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/az/builder.php), this would suggest that the Hylden, at least before they were banished, indeed had finite lives.

Despite all this the Hylden can probably still be blamed for unbalancing the dimensional barriers, although besides that (and if this were true) it would seem that they were wrongfully punished/demonized, and that they only built the device to win the war against the ancient vampires, a war the Hylden themselves didn't start.

Their actions in BO2 could be explained by their extended residence in the demon dimension... I would be awfully bitter/angry/somewhat psychotic if I were imprisoned in what could most aptly be described as hell for doing what was right and defending myself against the ancient vampires.


The Hylden outright opposed the Ancients' God and his Wheel of Fate, which cast their souls in a cycle of reincarnation. For this heresy, the Ancients, who were prompted by the Elder God, declared war on the Hylden. -sauce (http://legacyofkain.wikia.com/wiki/Hylden)

The_Hylden
4th Apr 2010, 03:27
lol, "sauce" ??

I'll just repost the answer on this I gave from a few threads down. Now, this post is how I see it; not like there's an actual statement on the matter, other than dialogue from Janos. Assuming he's correct:


The corruption happens when the Pillars fail. When Kain refuses to restore them, they shatter. Unfortunately, the Ancients built them to both take power from the land, and to be the structure by which that power exists whole, or slowly dies within the land if the Pillars ever fail. I am sure that before the Pillars were raised and channeled into the respective powers (energy, states, nature, dimension, conflict, mind, time, death, and balance), these powers ran smoothly by the very forces of nature and the land, itself. However, the "necessary evil" Janos calls The Pillars to banish the Hylden race also ensnares the land into a symbiotic existence with those Pillars. If they fail, the land can no longer, apparently, redistribute the energies of Nosgoth on its own and it slowly dies, people and all forms of life mutate, or further corrupt, and eventually, the land will die completely. At least, that's how it's been shown to be. It sure is taking a long, slow death of the land, though, being we see it's still hanging on a couple of millennia after Kain damns it.

Aranor
4th Apr 2010, 15:39
Elder God
These are the fathomless truths, Raziel:
The agony of birth and death and rebirth – this is the Wheel of Fate, the purifying cycle which sustains all life.
Vampires are an abomination, a plague which leeches this land of its spiritual strength.
They obstruct the flow of life and death – their souls stagnate in their wretched corpses.
But the Wheel must turn; Death is inexorable and cannot be denied.
Your destiny is irresistible, Raziel – you are my soul reaver, the scourge of the vampires, reaper of their apostate souls.
Remain steadfast. End the vampires’ parasitic curse, and restore Nosgoth.
Kain’s blood belongs on your hands.

Spiritual energy born into the world, growing, dyin, getting recycled and born again is what turns the wheel. (In Final Fantasy 7 Bugenhagen has a great visual on this. If I can find a video when I get home I will post it.) The vampires do not die, thus their souls remain in one spot "clotting" the wheels flow. The more vampires there are the more the flow is restricted and the less spirit energy can be brough into the world as new life. This goes for humans, animals, insects, plants etc.

During the SR era we do still see signs of life so the flow is not completely cut off. But we do see Raziel take out a large number of the vampire populace.

Aurang
4th Apr 2010, 16:50
The EG doesn't seem like an unbiased observer though. He lied to Raziel plenty of times (and used Moebius to assist in this regard). His story about the world dying because he can't eat seems to be soaked in crocodile tears.

Plus, the EG's main interest was probably having Kain killed. In the proceeding games he is hellbent on Kain's death, probably because he knows that Kain would one day kill him. So he hatched a scheme with Moebius to derail Kain's destiny (which evidently was successful).

He may have been gambling on Kain's death restoring the pillars.

Theres no actual evidence that the souls are going through the cycle of death and rebirth once he's done with them... sure the EG has some nifty powers, like allowing certain souls (Moebius) to use his conduits to recombine a physical form (assuming that is the method employed, since Moebius' head was cut off the first time Kain killed him), but at the same time he doesn't seem any different than a spectral predator like the sluagh, except that he is obviously much more successful.


However, if the EG were only devouring part of a soul and letting the rest go after its been 'purified', he might be corrupting them in his own way, which would explain why no creature in Nosgoth save Kain can now see him. Its probably the way he survives as a parasite, so that no part of the host will be aware of him.

Perhaps its not how the EG is affecting the volume of soul energy that could possibly be killing Nosgoth, but rather what the EG is doing to it?

That corruption could be the cause (and when Kain was purified, it purged Nupraptor's corruption as well as the EG's).


Also, at the time of the pillar's construction, there was no imbalance in the underworld's soul quota. Ancient vampires were dying, Hylden were dying, and ancient vampires were killing themselves left, right and center. Then a while after the humans killed a ton of ancient vampires in their rebellion, in which a good number of humans probably perished as well. It was a very good time for the EG.

If the theory that Nosgoth was beginning to die before the pillars construction is true (only Amy Hennig would know), the most likely culprits would be the EG or the dimensional barriers.


However, it is a possibility that an overpopulation of vampires would cause Nosgoth to die, if the EG is indeed the engine driving the wheel of fate and all the other things he says about himself are true.




I'll just repost the answer on this I gave from a few threads down. Now, this post is how I see it; not like there's an actual statement on the matter, other than dialogue from Janos. Assuming he's correct:

"The corruption happens when the Pillars fail. When Kain refuses to restore them, they shatter. Unfortunately, the Ancients built them to both take power from the land, and to be the structure by which that power exists whole, or slowly dies within the land if the Pillars ever fail. I am sure that before the Pillars were raised and channeled into the respective powers (energy, states, nature, dimension, conflict, mind, time, death, and balance), these powers ran smoothly by the very forces of nature and the land, itself. However, the "necessary evil" Janos calls The Pillars to banish the Hylden race also ensnares the land into a symbiotic existence with those Pillars. If they fail, the land can no longer, apparently, redistribute the energies of Nosgoth on its own and it slowly dies, people and all forms of life mutate, or further corrupt, and eventually, the land will die completely. At least, that's how it's been shown to be. It sure is taking a long, slow death of the land, though, being we see it's still hanging on a couple of millennia after Kain damns it."

Yeah, its hard to know where, "the Elder God said so," ends and where, "we've established this ourselves," begins. They started a genocidal war for him, and killed themselves for him.

Janos is a cool guy and everything, but it sounds like he might be preaching from the book of the EG. However the EG theory is just a theory, so I can't make any concrete assertions on it.

Aranor
4th Apr 2010, 19:03
Where is the evidence for Nosgoths decay prior to the breaking of the pillars? Where is it after their breaking? In BO2 Nosgoth still seems to be a thriving place. And all we got to see of it was 1 city and some surrounding areas. It was not until there was nothing to stop the human vampires from expanding that the decay began to occur. ie the story from SR.

All of the times Raziel travelled through time the land was lush with life.

Aurang
4th Apr 2010, 19:37
Where is the evidence for Nosgoths decay prior to the breaking of the pillars? Where is it after their breaking?

I haven't once tried to press the idea that Nosgoth may have begun to die before the construction of the pillars as fact, as I have been clear to present it as theory. I don't see what the point of this was.

I was only pointing out that the Elder God isn't famous for his honesty, and that its entirely possible that the 'wheel of fate' is part of a Myth he devised to justify his existence, or which might have been thought up by a culture (the ancient vampires, or maybe even the werewolf men) and he simply adopted it.


All of the times Raziel travelled through time the land was lush with life.

All of the times Raziel travels to in the games are before the pillars were broken, except for when Raziel is sent into the demon ruled future by Moebius in SR2, and near the end of Defiance when Raziel witnesses the breaking of the pillars himself.


In BO2 Nosgoth still seems to be a thriving place. And all we got to see of it was 1 city and some surrounding areas. It was not until there was nothing to stop the human vampires from expanding that the decay began to occur. ie the story from SR.

Between the breaking of the pillars and Kain's awakening in BO2, there is approximately a 370 year timespan.

There is a 2100 year period between BO2 and SR. Like The Hylden said, Nosgoth's death is a long and slow one.


Where is it after their breaking?

Well, if your theory is true, the rise of Kain's empire would have marked an exponential acceleration of Nosgoth's decay.

There is little canon lore covering this subject or history in that 2000 year period.

So, like I've said several times on this forum, "its anyone's guess".

Like I said in my previous post, your theory would be true if everything the EG says about himself is true, and if it isn't solely the destruction of the pillars killing Nosgoth. Those are uncertain points though.

Aranor
4th Apr 2010, 20:51
My point was for any theory to be accepted there should be facts to support it.

IF there was any decay prior to the construction of the pillars then that which we were able to see through Raziels time travelling showed no signs of it.

The destructions of the pillars may well play a role in Nosgoths decay. But as was shown in BO2 there was little signs of it if any some 400 years later.

The glimpse we gain in the intro to SR shows a clouded sky brought on by the smoke the vampires filled it with to block the sun. Blocking the sun will begin the decay of life. Especially plant life.

Vampires are not born. They are made. At least in Nosgoth anyway. This means the souls are stuck in one body for however long the vampire exists. That soul is not being returned/recycled to be reborn .

Moebius:
The Wheel of Fate - the inexorable cycle of death and rebirth to which all men are compelled.
We serve the same God, Raziel.
The line says men but we know in SR2 even dogs have souls.

Without these souls returning to the wheel, there is only so many spinning to be born. Once that dries out there is no more souls to be born into life. Hence the barren wasteland that is Nosgoth at the time of SR.

As for the Elder God being a liar. Was he ever proven wrong? Did he ever truly lie? (Thats not sarcasm, I can not remember.)

Aurang
4th Apr 2010, 22:20
As for the Elder God being a liar. Was he ever proven wrong?


My point was for any theory to be accepted there should be facts to support it.

Like I said before, there is no evidence that there is a cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. Its unsubstantiated.

Like you said in your first response, so is the idea that Nosgoth might have begun to die before the construction of the pillars, but there is one major difference.

I haven't tried to push any of the theories dependant on that as fact. I've even acknowledged your theory and said it was possible and indicated the conditions.


Like I said in my previous post, your theory would be true if everything the EG says about himself is true, and if it isn't solely the destruction of the pillars killing Nosgoth. Those are uncertain points though.
-Me, being reasonable




IF there was any decay prior to the construction of the pillars then that which we were able to see through Raziels time travelling showed no signs of it.

Not even the earliest time Raziel travels to, 530 years before the human Kain's death, is anywhere near that time. This is evident by Vorador's appearance.



The destructions of the pillars may well play a role in Nosgoths decay. But as was shown in BO2 there was little signs of it if any some 400 years later.

The glimpse we gain in the intro to SR shows a clouded sky brought on by the smoke the vampires filled it with to block the sun. Blocking the sun will begin the decay of life. Especially plant life.

I agree. Keep in mind that Turel's smoke cloud only covered a medium sized area, which was safe for vampires 24/7, and so was likely carved up by the clans.

In the SR intro FMV you can see the smoke cloud doesn't reach anywhere near the horizon.

For all of Nosgoth to be covered, it would have required furnaces all over Nosgoth, being fed 24/7. The only furnaces we know of are those in Turel's territory, which probably took advantage of the trees in Termogent forest.

Meridian and the southern lands would have been nowhere near this smoke cloud, so its unlikely they experienced the same deprivation of sunlight and heat which would kill all the vegetation like it did in that Northern area of Nosgoth.


Without these souls returning to the wheel, there is only so many spinning to be born. Once that dries out there is no more souls to be born into life. Hence the barren wasteland that is Nosgoth at the time of SR.

Says the Elder God and every character in the game who drinks his kool aid. Until its demonstrated by canon to be true I don't see any reason why I should buy what the EG and his Chiwawa Moebius say over any other theory.

dumah's wraith
5th Apr 2010, 19:43
I always thought the pillars being linked with the health of the land was a vindictive move by the vampires. They don't want the Hylden to escape the demon dimension. The pillars are the lock that keeps them there. Therefore, the pillars are linked with the health of the land, leaving the Hylden with two options.

A) Stay in the hellish demon dimension, a 'place of evil'.

B) Escape by breaking down the pillars, but damn the world in the process.

Escaton
5th Apr 2010, 22:27
Well, that seems like a fairly logical explanation regarding the storytelling, though it would be a really idiotic move from the Vampires' perspective. I imagine, if the Hylden escaped, the Vampires would rather resume the conflict, and retain something worth fighting for, rather than cutting off their nose to spite their collective face and effectively suicide bomb the planet. Unless they had a secret failsafe to disconnect the Pillars from the world's health, or something.

Aurang
6th Apr 2010, 00:36
Well, that seems like a fairly logical explanation regarding the storytelling, though it would be a really idiotic move from the Vampires' perspective. I imagine, if the Hylden escaped, the Vampires would rather resume the conflict, and retain something worth fighting for, rather than cutting off their nose to spite their collective face and effectively suicide bomb the planet. Unless they had a secret failsafe to disconnect the Pillars from the world's health, or something.

Thats what I thought. It makes no sense, unless they honestly believed that their guardianship of the pillars would never go uninterrupted, and/or that the Hylden wouldn't get desperate enough to try to escape (both things obviously happened, and they would have sooner or later).

The ancient vampires should have been able to tell that they were ultimately one day dooming Nosgoth to complete ruin.

Thats why I believe that Nosgoth might have been dying before the construction of the pillars. If it was the worn down dimensional barriers sucking the life out of Nosgoth, it would make more sense to me, because then the pillars, by keeping the demon dimension separate from Nosgoth, would also be keeping Nosgoth alive in doing so. All the forces of Nosgoth 'power' the pillars, to accomplish this.

Since they're being powered by the very forces being sapped by the demon dimension, it would explain the need for guardians to tend/minister to the pillars regularely, to reinforce them and ensure that they don't gradually weaken.

Nosgoth's only chance at living would be the pillars.

In this way, Nosgoth's health is dependant on the pillars only in that they keep the demon dimension separate.

This relationship could be interpreted as symbiotic, but the cause of Nosgoth's decay changes the nature of it significantly.

Tverdyj
11th Apr 2010, 16:39
Question: I recall the dialogue in SR2, the second time that Raziel spoke to EG in the subterranean chamber under the Pillars, he accused the EG of breaking them. has that part ever been explained properly?

also, if the "vampires' immortality slows down the Wheel and makes the land decay" thing was true, then the Hylden's very existance prior to their war with the Ancients would've led to decay as well, but there's no proof of that.

If Kain is to be believed, the Pillars weaken, because the Human Guardians are incapable of fully handling them--which is why he insists they mut return to Vampire guardianship.

I'd wager reality is a combination of factors--but it's obvious that from the moment humans took over the Pillars, the Guardians became open to subtle corruption--regardless of whether it were the demons, the Hylden, or the EG. After all, since Azimuth was able to summon demons into Avernus, it goes to show that Nosgoth wasn't fully isolated--only things not allowed in were the Hylden, up untill the Sarafan Lord created the Hylden Gate.

Escaton
11th Apr 2010, 19:22
Question: I recall the dialogue in SR2, the second time that Raziel spoke to EG in the subterranean chamber under the Pillars, he accused the EG of breaking them. has that part ever been explained properly?

What's to explain? It's just Raziel's speculation and hasn't been confirmed or denied, the fact that it's in the game doesn't make it any different than anyone else's theories.

dumah's wraith
12th Apr 2010, 09:36
also, if the "vampires' immortality slows down the Wheel and makes the land decay" thing was true, then the Hylden's very existance prior to their war with the Ancients would've led to decay as well, but there's no proof of that.

I'd wager reality is a combination of factors--but it's obvious that from the moment humans took over the Pillars, the Guardians became open to subtle corruption--regardless of whether it were the demons, the Hylden, or the EG. After all, since Azimuth was able to summon demons into Avernus, it goes to show that Nosgoth wasn't fully isolated--only things not allowed in were the Hylden, up untill the Sarafan Lord created the Hylden Gate.

We've never seen a vampire pillar guardian except for the corrupted Kain, who did more damage to them than any of the humans. Janos says the human's aren't competent, but that could be just bias. We've no way of knowing.

Azimuth's demon summoning seems to be one of the inherent abilities of any dimension guardian.

The Hylden refused to worship the Wheel...that doesn't mean they couldn't die, just that they weren't subscribing to the Ancient's religion.

diuqSehT
29th Jun 2010, 09:30
What is causing Nosgoth to die?

I like the crackpot theory. (Hungry Hippo in spectral). It's the most pleasing way to end the story, to find a guilty EG huddled over the planet's wound, feeding. Draining it dry all along. Building the pillars was like inserting a pacemaker into the planet's heart to artificially regulate things and in some ways make life better than on a normal world. Then, Legacy of Kain history marched the planet through a metal detector at the airport. The pacemaker malfunctioned and the body is spasming on the floor.


the EG has some nifty powers, but he doesn't seem any different than a spectral predator like the sluagh, except that he is obviously much more successful.
As if he's the queen bee (slaugh). Like he's taken on the timeless quality of the Wheel of Fate by hooking himself up to it intravenously and feeding on its royal jelly. .


Its probably the way he survives as a parasite, so that no part of the host will be aware of him.
People love to say this is nuts, but I believe the reason Raziel could see EG to begin with is EG made them blood brothers (spirit bros.) upon raising the wraith so they could share the special feeding funnel connection. Like, a shard of EG's spooky essence was imparted to Raz, mirroring the way Kain raised his sons. EG didn't have the choice to keep Raz at a distance like he did with Moe. Their shared essence made Raz an insider who could see EG and pick his brain, and was unkillable due to the link of shared 'divine' substance. Then, to explain why Kain is unkillable, remind yourself that it's a circle journey through time and Raziel's soul makes a pit stop in Kain at some point, making Kain part of the fam as well. Eh.