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Aurang
31st Mar 2010, 20:26
Hey,

I'm working on a new post-SR map of Nosgoth (for the UDK game). Its going to take a while, as well as a lot of notes and references of SR gameplay, but I have a few things I'd like to bring up for discussion.

Here are the two maps I'm basing by redesign on, with the use of other LoK maps.

Map 1 (http://www.nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/showmap.htm)
Map 2 (http://www.nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/showmap2.htm)

Now, here is a SR map (http://www.nosgoth.net/Soul_Reaver/showmap.htm) (created by Shrykull, and it has been immensely helpful!)


Observing the butchering of Nosgoth's scale in SR (I don't blame Crystal Dynamics, since the game was made over 9000 years ago I'm guessing they didn't have much choice), its hard to determine where certain locations might be, but I have inklings for a few of them.



1. The Melchahim clan territory = Vasserbunde, surrounding area, and Nupraptor's Retreat.

Vasserbunde: I'm guessing that during the decay of Nosgoth and rise of Kain's empire that many people died, and many of this location's inhabitants did as well. Eventually they might have all been killed off, and in the end it was more of a necropolis than a settlement (graveyards, charnel houses, etc).


2. The Rahabim clan territory: The Drowned Abbey (obviously)

Things to note about the abbey;

a) It had submerged doors, and appears to have been originally build on dry land..
b) It is in a canyon-like trench.
c) It is attached to another canyon-like trench where there is a sunken ship. This leads me to believe this specific area was part of a large river or lake. This also leads me to believe that the abbey was beside this river or lake.

Due to the general direction of the abbey in relation to the location of the lake of the dead, I'm fairly certain that the canyon-like trench with the ship was once a part of the river which flows from Vasserbunde to the Lake of Tears. Since the water levels in the area around the Abbey itself and the river are equal, and the water in the area with the ship was probably once a river (explaining the presence of the ship), this means that the land the abbey was built on would have had to have been near the river, and been much lower than the surface of the water in the river.

The only spot which matches this description is the large trench south of Nupraptors Retreat, north of the river.

It should be kept in mind that this is a map, and so any features it portrays are probably based on generalizations of the features of different areas. Also, Nosgoth has gone through some pretty drastic changes in the time between BO and SR, so I'm keeping an open mind.

http://i858.photobucket.com/albums/ab145/Malrang/MelchahimandRahabimterritory.jpg

I'll update later on the other SR areas and clan territories once I've had more time to think about them; but for now, what are your opinions & thoughts?

Shrykull_the1st
31st Mar 2010, 23:00
Glad to see my map helped =)

The Rahabim territory should be on the Northeast of the Lake of Tears, to the side of Steinchenchroe.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 00:24
:(

and there I was thinking I made a personal breakthrough.

Is there info on where all the SR locations are supposed to be in Nosgoth? It would be incredibly helpful. :)

FearGhoul
1st Apr 2010, 03:01
Yes, looking at the maps, I'd agree that Rahab's tarritory is farther south of those rivers right below Nupraptor's Retreat. I'm basing this on the location of the Pillars. Looking at Shrykull's map, it seems that those bodies of water you're referring to would be farther north. I'd say that the bodies of water you're referring to are just the water areas around Melchiah's territory.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 04:01
Yeah, I'd agree that the Rahabim territory would probably be situated on the North-Eastern edge of the Lake of Tears. I only assumed it was that the abbey itself was on the north side of the river was because the terrain seemed (relatively) more similar than that of the south side (closer to the lake).

Shrykull_the1st
1st Apr 2010, 12:06
:(

and there I was thinking I made a personal breakthrough.

Is there info on where all the SR locations are supposed to be in Nosgoth? It would be incredibly helpful. :)

Hmm not really...but it is not that difficult to assume where they might be, comparing maps. The most controversial might be the Human Citadel, one almost wants it to be the former Coorhagen; Kain had only spared his birthplace!

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 15:32
I'm thinking the Human Citadel is nestled in the rocky/mountainous areas North of the Lake of the Dead, since in-game its surrounded by tall cliffs, which seem to shield the citadel from attack by the neighbouring city of Dumah's clan (which the humans would later pwnt).

If you look on Map 2 of BO Nosgoth, theres a small body of water inbetween Malek's bastion and the Oracle's Cave. I'm figuring they redirected water from this to create their moat, to serve as a water supply, and for sewage purposes.

Escaton
1st Apr 2010, 16:12
Using Shrykull's map it's really easy to tell where everything is. I don't really see why it requires discussion - it doesn't seem ambiguous to me.

The Ruined City is clearly in the mountains north of Malek's Bastion and west of Oracle of Nosgoth. Because it's between the City and Nupraptor's Retreat, the Human Citadel is in the same place as Coorhagen.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 16:51
Well, in Shrykull's map, and in the design of 'Nosgoth' in SR, the distances between different locations are changed quite a bit when compared to BO maps.

For example, all of the locations if you're going by SR would all be less than a km away from the Lake of the Dead, and would all share an approximate distance.

Now, we've already established that The Necropolis and The Drowned Abbey are relatively close to where you would expect them to be, but the pillars of Nosgoth on the BO map are wayyy farther south.

CD may have needed resituate the pillars in SR, so it might only be an anomaly. It does bring into question where the Lighthouse and the Silent Cathedral would be though, if their position is relative to that of the pillars (which can only be guessed at).

I'm trying to initiate the discussion because I also want to guage whether or not LoK fans would care, and/or how they see it (that is whether or not the location of the pillars is relevent to that of the cathedral & lighthouse).

If LoK fans just see the pillars' location as being a necessary anomaly created by Crystal Dynamics, then I'll just put the cathedral and lighthouse where they should approximately be relative to the lake of the dead, and that will be that.

EDIT: Coorhagen isn't mountainous, and doesn't have any bodies of water nearby. All the water in the area around the lake of the dead runs towards the lake of the dead in SR. On the Blood Omen map it runs towards the Lake of Tears (see the waterfall at Nupraptor's retreat), where it then probably flows into the Southern ocean.

In SR, the water which flows into Nupraptors retreat is gone, and a lot of the water in Nosgoth seems to have vanished. It should also be noted that there are no ruins of a human city around the Human Citadel.


Also, relative to the locations we've established for The Necropolis and what we know to be the location of the cave of the oracle, why would the human citadel be miles away to the North-North-West?

You're telling me Shrykull's map lays it out plainly, and as far as I can see it places the Human Citadel North of the Lake of the Dead, in terrain which almost perfectly suits its design and location that we see in SR.

Escaton
1st Apr 2010, 17:15
Well I guess you're right, the relative positions are correct but the distance isn't exactly perfect. But that's accentuated only if you're looking at the BO1 atlas which wasn't actually in the game. The first BO1 map (ingame) has tiny rivers in comparison and things are more compressed. So those two versions of the same map you posted aren't even really consistent at all in scale. I am going to go with the ingame one as "canon" and it's pretty much a match with SR1's Nosgoth.

I also suggested some months ago that there could be a more subtle explanation than "they screwed up". The Elder God mentions that cataclysms and earthquakes have wracked Nosgoth irreperably since Kain damned the Pillars, especially focal at the Lake of the Dead. It's not impossible that the earthquakes smashed part of the geography closer together since 1500 years ago in BO1.

I think Zephon's Clan Territory and the Lighthouse are exactly where part of the Termogent Forest used to be. (don't ask me why anybody would need a lighthouse that far inland.)

The distance between the Pillars and Coorhagen is almost tripled on the full BO1 atlas as far as I can see.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 17:26
Ahh okay, yeah the cataclysms have done quite a number on Nosgoth, and it has been a long time.

We could make it Coorhagen and it would make sense if we use that explanation, but I honestly think my explanation makes more sense, geography-wise. I can see it morphing the landscape, but I can't see it displacing the location of a city (since I blame this on the constraints of gaming and design capacities in 1999... its not like they could make games with world areas the size of Oblivion).

The reason I'm using the second BO1 map as my main reference is because of the third map on this page (http://www.nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/map.htm). Shrykull's actual mapping of the BO game lines up with Map 2 (http://www.nosgoth.net/Blood_Omen/showmap2.htm) almost perfectly.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 17:37
The lighthouse might have been used to draw human refugees to the safety of the cathedral.

Shrykull_the1st
1st Apr 2010, 19:27
Well, all those misplacements can be explained due to the 3000 years (?almost) of cataclysms that Nosgoth suffered since its lack of balance. For example: when discussing those maps, the thing that bothered me the most was that Nupraptor's retreat was more to the North than the Oracle Caves, which wasn't the case in BO1.

One thing is certain, the distances between areas in BO1, SR1 and SR2 aren't to be taken seriously, they can't be realistic. Nosgoth seems to be much more vast than to be some land that you can go on foot from one end to the other in 15min (!!) =P And also remember the huge size of Meridian... Perhaps considering this, it could be one of the reasons CD decided to cut out the paths between areas in Defiance.

About maps, me and Tenaya (from Nosgothic Realms) are doing some amazing works that are sure to delight those who are curious in this matter.

Thinking about the Lighthouse area, one more note regarding games on the PSOne system: often, due to the restricted capabilities of the system, there was the case when the developers had to make certain areas closed spaces, or not as big as they had envisioned. One of this cases (unless I misinterpreted) happened from MGS1 (PSOne) to MGS4 (PS3), in which in the fist case you would see a closed area that revealed to be an out in the open area later on the PS3.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 20:26
Yeah I was definitely going to be fixing the scale of the final map to make Nosgoth seem as vast as its supposed to be (without individual locations having massive keys of their own).


About maps, me and Tenaya (from Nosgothic Realms) are doing some amazing works that are sure to delight those who are curious in this matter.

:D You guys are working on maps already? Or are you talking about in-game mappings of SR2, Blood Omen 2, and/or Defiance?

dumah's wraith
1st Apr 2010, 22:06
The lighthouse might have been used to draw human refugees to the safety of the cathedral.

Or to prevent sneak attacks by vampires.

Variations in scale can be explained by cataclysms and gameplay necessities.

If it took hours for Raziel to move from the abyss to his territories in SR1, it'd be a boring game, but travel time is necessary between different kingdoms in BO1

Ladiesman69
1st Apr 2010, 22:53
I'd Love A Copy Of The Map When You're Done.

Aurang
2nd Apr 2010, 02:53
Will do.

Umah Bloodomen
7th Apr 2010, 16:45
You may wish to consult Lucent's map ( http://www.dark-chronicle.co.uk/lok/map.php) as well.

Aurang
7th Apr 2010, 17:28
I have, its been useful =] I'm jumping between game models and the map, depending on whatever I feel like working on any one moment.

Luckily today I'm in a map mood...

Moebius
18th Apr 2010, 22:52
Don't know if this helps (you may have considered it already), but I'm pretty certain that Turrel's territory would be east of the Abyss. Specifically I'd guess it would be situated around the location of Averness.

Only proof I can muster for this is that Turrel was "summoned" back through time to end up in Averness (BO1 time). As we've seen all timetravel methods move you temporally, but never physically. ;)

FearGhoul
19th Apr 2010, 01:26
Kain traveled from near the Oracle's Chamber to the Pillars at the beginning of Soul Reaver 2, and Raziel was pulled to the Sarafan Stronghold by Moebius.

Moebius
19th Apr 2010, 06:49
Kain traveled from near the Oracle's Chamber to the Pillars at the beginning of Soul Reaver 2, and Raziel was pulled to the Sarafan Stronghold by Moebius.

Well yeah, but Raziel was "plucked from the timestream" and I always assumed Kain made his way to the pillars by himself. I was talking about when there was no outside interference.

Escaton
19th Apr 2010, 15:46
Good point, but since Azimuth was the one doing the summoning she could've easily transported him through space as well.

Moebius
19th Apr 2010, 20:12
Good point, but since Azimuth was the one doing the summoning she could've easily transported him through space as well.

Ahhhhh very good point there. Oh well, just my own guesswork anyway.

Shrykull_the1st
26th Apr 2010, 17:56
Yeah I was definitely going to be fixing the scale of the final map to make Nosgoth seem as vast as its supposed to be (without individual locations having massive keys of their own).



:D You guys are working on maps already? Or are you talking about in-game mappings of SR2, Blood Omen 2, and/or Defiance?

Were drawing accurate maps of SR2, BO2 and Defiance. They're getting awesome! And we're experimenting overlaping the areas of Defiance with the SR2 ones, which is giving some veeery interesting results if you like this subject. =)