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Aurang
22nd Mar 2010, 06:34
I've mulling over the idea of starting a LoK, non-profit fan project with the UDK.

Look through the posts for my latest proposal (it should be the last one I have made)

One of the main aims of this project will be to give Nosgoth a lot more depth and detail, since the story and gameplay of the games has really left that to slip away into the periphery.

So don't be afraid to be creative, it would be amazing if many community members could contribute to this (creatively). I want to 'develop' Nosgoth, and try to make it feel like a larger world, rather than just a bare dozen locations that you always see in most of the games, in different states/times.

Shrykull_the1st
22nd Mar 2010, 20:45
Well, the parts of history I personally would like to see covered are:

- The birth of the Hylden and the Winged race and their war. The making of Vorador and the first human guardians.

- The story of Raziel is now being developed. See here http://lokprodigalsons.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/2308394-codename-skullcrack-new-fan-game-?page=last

- The story of Vorador and how e got to be the vampire lord he was.

- The 1000 years of Raziel life as a vampire

- The travels Kain made through history as to become the wise entity we know.

- And a sequel to Defiance we so long await!!!

Shrykull_the1st
22nd Mar 2010, 22:25
So you're interested in altered timelines?... I think I would prefer to add to the story, rather than do a 'what if?'. And are you willing to go through the end with this project?

dumah's wraith
23rd Mar 2010, 10:36
The Story

Kain changes the timeline following Defiance by killing and purifying his younger self with the reaver.



[I]NOTE: An alternate version of this story could have it so that Kain replaces his younger self instead of simply purifying him, by taking the human Kain's soul into the reaver and preventing it from returning to the pillars (thus preventing Mortanius from resurrecting the corpse complete with the soul of the balance guardian). That way the purified Elder Kain would fill the 'Kain' role as opposed to the younger Kain. Lets assume Kain is a deviation in the timeline, no longer bound by fate, and isn't subject to the paradox he creates by doing this (hell, he hasn't been subject to any of the others created throughout the series so why bother paying attention now)..

First of all, if Kain kills his youger self, he can't exist. Fatal paradox, he's expelled from the Timestream.

'Free will' means you can change the fate the EG has set out. It doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. You need two reavers to change the timestream, but you can only do it within limits. If you change it too much, you're expelled.

Kain knows messing with time is dangerous. In SR2, he allowed it to happen because he had no choice, but he's not going to voluntarily complicate things without a very good reason.

Escaton
23rd Mar 2010, 23:44
He can't do that either. It takes two Reavers colliding to potentially alter a certain history. Kain's bound to a fate; he can't, and won't, simply pop down and murder himself. Even if he could fight the pull of fate like Raziel can, there'd be a fatal paradox - goodbye Kain, and his legacy, forever. And with Raziel gone, Nosgoth's history is "now" eternally stuck the way it is.

Judging from your sample plot, I think you are well able to create a great story in Nosgoth that doesn't revolve around SR2's "let's rewrite history" plot mechanics, maybe even without Kain himself. What's known about SK's next Nosgoth game is that Vorador would be in it. There's a starting point for you.

Aurang
24th Mar 2010, 04:02
Ahh okay, I understand what you're saying.

What if Kain went back in time, and battled his younger self when he was armed with a reaver as well? The younger Kain wouldn't necessarily have to die to be purified, but he would definitely be seriously wounded.

Unless this would cause a fatal paradox (by which I assume you mean he does something which cancels himself out and his attempt at manipulating the timeline, and seriously messes things up).

So here are my new ideas (and thanks for the input, its really helped me think of alternatives that hadn't occurred to me before).


Possible Alternatives


1. Kain goes back in time and battles his younger self in a bid to prevent him from killing King William (while they're both wielding reavers). He arrives as the young Kain is about to deal the finishing blow to William, confronting the fledgling vampire. He tries to explain, but the young Kain will not be reasoned with, and engages what he sees as an abomination (in reality himself in a more advanced stage of vampiric evolution). The Elder Kain is vanquished, and in his last dying moments, the young Kain drinks the blood of the Elder Kain.

The memories overwhelm the fledgling Kain as they flood into him, and he feels the purification burn away the corruption which tainted his soul. The Earth violently shudders as the timeline is revised, and the fledgling Kain watches as the corpse of what he had thought was an abomination fade before his eyes. As soon as it begins, it stops, and by that time he understands what it was he was about to do.


2. Kain goes back in time and battles his younger self in a bid to prevent him from killing King William (while they're both wielding reavers). He arrives as the young Kain is about to deal the finishing blow to William, confronting the fledgling vampire. He tries to explain, but the young Kain will not be reasoned with, and engages what he sees as an abomination (in reality himself in a more advanced stage of vampiric evolution). The young Kain is vanquished, and as he stumbles backward, unable to match the prowess of the elder Kain, the soul reaver is plunged through his heart.

The reaver purges the corruption from the youn Kain's soul, and he falls, in those moments believing that it is his end. However, he regains consciousness later, somehow miraculously still alive, laying as a casualty would on the blood soaked and body strewn battlefield, among the lifeless remnants of the armies of the last hope. There is no trace of the abomination he fought. Not too far away, he sees a broken time streaming device.

Rising, and feeling nothing but despair, pain and confusion, Kain limps towards the woods.


3. Kain goes back in time and battles his younger self in a bid to prevent him from killing King William (while they're both wielding reavers). He arrives as the young Kain is about to deal the finishing blow to William, confronting the fledgling vampire. He tries to explain, but the young Kain will not be reasoned with, and engages what he sees as an abomination (in reality himself in a more advanced stage of vampiric evolution). Kain shows him his signet ring that he received from Vorador, and the young Kain falters.

The elder Kain offers him his blood as proof, and the young Kain accepts.


4. The elder Kain visits the Vorador of the past, and tells him what the young Kain is going to do. Distrustful of the malformed, vampiric stranger before him, Kain shows Vorador the signet ring he received from him. He tells Vorador of the vampire purge it will cause fifty years earlier, and offers Vorador his blood so that he may see his own execution for himself.

Arming Vorador with his reaver, Kain departs. With no time to waste, he travels to where the battle of the last stand is raging, with the intent of subduing Kain and destroying the timestreaming device (he succeeds) (earth shakes).

Kain awakes in Voradors mansion, where he is enraged and nearly attacks Vorador, but the elder vampire explains to him what would have happened if he had killed William, and relays what knowledge he can from the quickly fading memories which only hours before were clear in his mind.


NOTE: In all scenarios where the young Kain or Vorador drink the blood of the elder Kain, following his dissolution as the timeline rearranged itself, the memories begin to fade, not disappearing but becoming hazy and difficult to grasp.


Personally I'm favouring scenario #2, but I don't know if that would qualify as causing a fatal paradox, or if it would be able to squeeze by since there are two reavers present (as there are in the other three scenarios).

Other possible alternatives could have the elder Kain battling the fledgling Kain on the battlefield instead of in the past (perhaps in the guise of one of the Nemesis' soldiers?).

Aranor
24th Mar 2010, 15:52
The only problem with purifying the younger Kain his actions which led to the destruction of Nosgoth would not have been taken. Him not being corrupt means there is no need for Raziel to become the Soul Reaver now, venture back into Nosgoths past to reach the devices which are needed to do the purifying. This means no guiding Raziel in the past and thus no trip in time for Older Kain to be there to purify younger Kain thus it does not and can not happen.

Don't forget Raziels soul was anchored with part of Kains soul. Everything Raziel did was for Kains benefit. Everything the other Lieutenants evolved into was for Kain's benefit. Giving the Younger Kain this purification and power basically expells the games storylines from history and thus its impossible.

I think if you want to make a fan based game, do so without using the main characters. Using them there is to much to disturb. Offer storylines of a young bride of Vorador, A sarafan knight. A member of the human resistance from Soul Reaver era.

Of all the vampires we saw in Soul Reaver, there was little to no type of ranking among them. Room to play there for enemies.

Aurang
24th Mar 2010, 17:59
Well, I know that, but in Blood Omen a precedent was set for time manipulation not being able to affectively 're-map' the the fate of someone who manipulated the timeline.

I'll write out an explanation below.

Kain was about thirty I believe when he went back in time to kill William. He went back fifty years and killed William. That means the renewed Vampire purge began before he would even have become a vampire (before he was born, in fact). This would have drastically affected the course of events which led to him travelling back through time to kill William (since the battle of the last stand no longer took place).

It doesn't seem likely that the fledgling vampire Kain would have survived during that, much less found the time to go murder pillar guardians, then for some reason travel into the past to kill William anyway. We've just taken it on faith that he did, even though the course of events which led to that specific action have no longer taken place.

So, what I'm saying is, in regards to the above text concerning events in Blood Omen, a major canonical support for the whole story and history of Nosgoth past that point, Kain was left seemingly unaffected by the changes. I don't know whether this was simply ignored by Silicon Knights, or if it was supposed to be explainable by the reavers.


NEW IDEA

Okay, I'm sorry if I'm getting annoying, but I've already chased down a lot of other possible story directions, and this is the best story I've been able to come up with so far (thats why I'm trying so hard to make it work).


Okay, I just came up with something which might work (in the story).

Raziel had limited free will, right? With two reavers, he was able to change history.

Now, since Raziel went into Kain's reaver, isn't it technically the same combo, of two reavers? Assuming that Raziel's limited 'free will' had something to do with it, perhaps that makes the history altering force behind Kain's reaver even stronger. The two reavers are reunited again as they were in SR2 (if more intimately than before).

Look at these youtube videos of footage from SR2 and Defiance

Watch as the Soul Reaver intertwines with the reaver from SR2 (watch at 5:50) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ua5_G_N_U&feature=related)

The Soul Reaver as it appears after it is reunited with Raziel (Defiance) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL8xX5zI1IQ&feature=related)

Now, imagine if Kain fought someone wielding a reaver as well.


On a related note... what use would the scion of balance and his destiny be, if he couldn't change Nosgoth's history? He wouldn't be able to avert its fate or save it afterwards (unless he's going to go attack the pillars in the SR era until they decide to rebuild themselves).

Like someone else said the next game would have involved Vorador, so that means it would (most likely) have to take place in the past. The scion of balance is 'armed' to complete his destiny, but that wouldn't make a whole lot of difference if he were utterly useless.

Escaton
24th Mar 2010, 21:25
Kain was about thirty I believe when he went back in time to kill William. He went back fifty years and killed William. That means the renewed Vampire purge began before he would even have become a vampire (before he was born, in fact). This would have drastically affected the course of events which led to him travelling back through time to kill William (since the battle of the last stand no longer took place).

Events did indeed change a little. Vampire hunters are "now" everywhere instead of Nemesis soldiers. This change seems to have altered Vorador's personaltiy a lot (see SR2 onwards). Kain wasn't so hugely affected; he still time travelled and slaughtered William the Just, but for different reasons. We don't know those reasons but they do exist. Maybe he was cornered by hunters at the Plains of Blood instead of legionnaires, and used the time streaming device to escape.


So, what I'm saying is, in regards to the above text concerning events in Blood Omen, a major canonical support for the whole story and history of Nosgoth past that point, Kain was left seemingly unaffected by the changes. I don't know whether this was simply ignored by Silicon Knights, or if it was supposed to be explainable by the reavers.

They did affect Kain. He now has two parallel histories in his mind, one where the Nemesis exists and one where he did not. He just doesn't comment on this extensively in Blood Omen. The only major events that changed were Kain's actions in Willendorf, which no longer take place. Instead he goes straight for Moebius, probably riled by the vampire hunters who now roam the land.


Now, since Raziel went into Kain's reaver, isn't it technically the same combo, of two reavers?

Well, no it isn't. There's the Blood Reaver (sword before Raziel is absorbed) and the Soul Reaver (sword afterwards). The point in time at which the Soul Reaver was created has changed thanks to the reshuffles in SR2, but the Soul Reaver itself hasn't changed. The Reaver at the end of Defiance is just the Soul Reaver. Prior to the ending it was the Blood Reaver.

It is not the presence of the Reaver itself that screws with history; only when Raziel's soul, which is in the Reaver, attempts to consume itself can the Reavers change time. This occurs in SR1 when Kain smashes the Reaver on Raziel (though this doesn't cause a change), and in BO1, as mentioned below. Two people fighting with the Blood Reaver would not change anything, because Raziel's soul isn't in either sword.

Now, at the end of SR2, Raziel's soul was halfway inside and outside the sword, and because half his soul was trying to absorb the other half, this counted as self-consumption, allowing Kain to, very briefly, mess with fate.


Now, imagine if he fought someone wielding a reaver as well.

He already has done so, in BO1. Both his and William's Reavers "contained" Raziel in that fight, and one of them broke because the same soul is trying to devour itself. The paradoxical screwup there gave Kain the opportunity to change history as he planned, so he killed William. He just wasn't aware then that it was only possible thanks to Moebius giving William the Reaver from 50 years ago.


On a related note... what use would the scion of balance and his destiny be, if he couldn't change Nosgoth's history? He wouldn't be able to avert its fate or save it afterwards (unless he's going to go attack the pillars in the SR era until they decide to rebuild themselves).

He can't change history, true, and is still bound to a fate, but it seems the Elder God can no longer track his future actions (for some undisclosed reason), especially with Moebius eternally dead. We don't know how or if Kain ultimately restores Nosgoth, but he has the element of surprise.

By now I think you're getting an idea of just how large a pain it is to make a potentially-canonical and compelling storyline using the time travel plot devices. The series has already utilised them successfully to their full. Maybe best to diverge from them.

Aurang
24th Mar 2010, 23:54
By now I think you're getting an idea of just how large a pain it is to make a potentially-canonical and compelling storyline using the time travel plot devices. The series has already utilised them successfully to their full. Maybe best to diverge from them.

Haha yes, I would love nothing more, the time travelling business is aggrivating. Crystal Dynamics has left the story in a state where its next to impossible to do anything with it (in a way which advances the story as it revolves around Kain). It always comes back to time travel...

Thanks for the information you provided, its given me a better understanding of how it all works.


He now has two parallel histories in his mind, one where the Nemesis exists and one where he did not. He just doesn't comment on this extensively in Blood Omen.
Ah okay, so memories associated with alternate histories remain intact.


New (and probably) Final Scenario

Right now I'm trying to revise the story, and I'm working on another assumption, that with enough of a distortion created by Raziel-infused blades and an exception (in this case a means to circumvent a fatal paradox), that changes to the timeline can be made. I was going to have the blade be feeding on the fledgling Kain's soul (after it was plunged through his heart) while the Elder Kain's actions wreaked havoc on the timeline, barely preventing the blade's expulsion due to its connection with the fledgling Kain at that time, preserving the timeline and the purified soul reaver). The presence of two other Raziel-infused blades would assist with this.

Fate prevents the purified soul reaver from draining fledgling Kain's soul completely, and history tears at itself as it fights to expel the anomalies, while at the same time trying to restructure history to suit the new timeline thats being sparked. The in-flux state of the purified soul reaver (while trying to devour the fledgling Kain's soul), and the presence of two other raziel-infused reavers allows it survive the ordeal, and so the latter takes place. His own blade shattered instead of William's, fledgling Kain takes up the purified soul reaver, which now exists as a temporal artifact. However, of the abomination (elder Kain) there is no trace.

During the violent earthquake, Moebius realizes what is happening and runs into room, enraged, just in time to see the mortally wounded fledgling Kain escape with the time streaming device. Following this Kain falls unconscious on the battlefield, among the innumerable dead.


(Note that with this version, I am also attempting to introduce a new exception, with the use of the soul reaver's soul drinking ability.)


EXTRA IMPORTANT DETAIL

The elder Kain isn't dead or disappeared into oblivion, he has merely gone through a very harrowing reversion to the state of his fledgling self. He is 'alive', and the fledgling Kain has the memories of the elder Kain (since memories from alternate histories are preserved for those who successfully manipulate the timeline), but some of them are fractured or distorted due to the incredible strain placed upon the fabric of time by the elder Kain's stunt. He was gambling on whether or not it would work, but he knew it was the only chance he would ever possibly get to save Nosgoth and fulfill his destiny.

Suffice it to say he found it preferable to living in an eternal loop of time travel, or among the wastes of his doomed empire.

Breathe easy Kain fans.


About The Forementioned Exception (i.e means of altering the timeline)

I know that a soul reaver feeding during temporal expulsion (fancy way of saying being ejected into what you might call oblivion) as a means of circumventing a fatal paradox sounds a bit flimsy, but so was the use of Raziel soul-infused blades and creative teamwork between Raziel and Kain. Unfortunately Crystal Dynamics offed Raziel, so I can't use that route, and I'm not left with much choice. I hope you enjoy this once I have a demo ready a very long time from now. A dev thread will be thrown up later.

Thanks to all the people who took the time to provide constructive criticisms and information, it was very helpful in hammering out this story.

Shezon
25th Mar 2010, 06:38
UDK is a great choice indeed ;)

As far as I know , you can rip Defiance's characters modeling , import them to Maya , modifing them and finally export them to UDK , without the animation sets though .

That will save you alot of time and help keep the original feeling of a Nosgothic environment .

But it won't be legal if you asked me ...

Cheers :)

Aurang
25th Mar 2010, 14:28
Haha, nah I'll be avoiding any porting from any other games. Thats asking to get shut down.

We'll I'll do my best to maintain the same feeling, but I'll be adding more detail to model geometry, using normal maps, etc. I'll be trying to deepen and improve designs, rather than completely change them (many of them will be new to the game of course).

RainaAudron
25th Mar 2010, 14:58
I appreciate any effort to keep LOK still among us but I just don´t understand why do you want to make a story if you do not understand the official canon. It has been stated several times that Kain simply can not kill his younger self as it would cause a fatal paradox and he would be expelled from timeline, nor it would solve anything. I dont mind fanfic but the solution you propose just doesnt make any sense.

Aurang
25th Mar 2010, 15:48
I'll try to explain it better below.

Kain doesn't kill himself, he purified his younger self and prevented him from killing William. This of course alters the timeline in a drastic way, which in fact averts the future which results in Kain, and thus results in a paradox. I called it a fatal paradox because it works in the same way, except that he has made a major alteration to history, which would come to the same result as a fatal paradox; he wouldn't possibly be able to commit the act which tried to manipulate the timeline. He does't have to kill his past self to do that.

According to my story's explanation, he uses the connection and in-flux state of his purified soul reaver as it feeds on the fledgling Kain's soul to prevent the paradox from expelling him and the reaver from the timeline (if it couldn't get rid of the reaver, then it couldn't get rid of him either, because either one serves as 'evidence' of the other [to get rid of Kain would be to expel him and cancel out the actions which resulted in the purified soul reaver being impaled into the fledgling Kain, but then it would have to expel the purified soul reaver, which it cannot, and so the protection is vice-versa for Kain).

So, instead it was forced to rebuild the timeline from that moment on according to his actions. No one died, but in fact the elder Kain regressed to the state he had left his fledgling self in, impaled by the purified soul reaver. That is why he possesses the memories associated with the alternate timeline(s) which have no longer taken place.

It fits, but I've devised my own exception to violate and circumvent the paradox he created. So he didn't kill himself (the future or past incarnation), but he came dangerously close.

The purified soul reaver was preserved as a temporal artifact (an object belonging to a timeline that doesn't exist, similar in nature to the memories which Kain has possessed on past occassions when manipulating the timeline in the LoK games, except in contrast it is a physical incarnation) since it was used as the anchor to allow (or force) the timeline to restructure itself rather than expel him into oblivion for what he had done (although theres a chance it might have done so with all of existence, since the paradox undermines everything past that point).

Oh I understand canon (better) now, and I understand it well enough to know that there is very little Kain can do at the end of Defiance to save the pillars besides alter history, but without Raziel that can't possibly be done. Thats not mentioning that the Raziel method has fully run its course in the story.

I could write this, or I could write nothing. I could have written something which didn't use a home-made exception, but then the story would go nowhere or be even more implausible (e.g "Kain saved the pillars without altering history", "Kain hoped that when Janos came back he would know how to rebuild the pillars.").

So with a sequel that follows Kain, I was left with using one implausible method to alter history in the story, or I could use an implausible method to restore the pillars post-Blood Omen.

A or B.


As for solving things, my story solves a few things.

1. Fledgling Kain was purified. He no longer has to make the sacrifice, so can fulfill his destiny without destroying the pillars.

2. The future Moebius desired was averted. Although this hasn't solved fledgling Kain's problems, it is just one step on a journey.

3. Fledgling Kain uses the purification of the soul reaver to extend the life of the pillars, which had been decaying for about thirty years prior. This allows breathing room to formulate his plans to save Nosgoth from the corrupted pillar guardians, and the enemies who control them (Moebius > The Elder God, Mortanius > The Dark Entity, aka the Hylden Lord).



Personally, I don't see my exception as any less implausible than the temporal acrobatics Kain and Raziel went through to manipulate the timeline. Those actions are explained in an inherently impossible way that requires faith on a gamer's part, and since they're Crystal Dynamics sanctioned, those actions are deemed to be A-Okay.

I'm just doing the same thing CD did to make their story work for the LoK games.

Aranor
25th Mar 2010, 16:42
I understand what you are trying to do but there is so much overlooked. The soul reaver in the sword never sipped on souls. It absorbs them to be sent to the wheel for recycling. Much like a chipper recycles tree branches. When it absorbs those souls it does not place them in the sword. Raziel's (with a small portion of Kain's) soul is what is in the reaver.

In order for that to have happened Kain needs to be corrupt when he offers portions of his soul as anchors to summon the souls for his lieutenenats. Now they along with Kain evolve with that corruption until one of them gains the ability to devour souls. (Ever after a supposed death) That one segment of Kain's soul (attached to Raziel) seeks out the others absorbing more of itself while recycling the ancient souls of the lieutenants. Once collected the host (Raziel) has the powers needed to go through the ancient gauntlet to purify itself. If a final motion Raziel realises he must enter the blade in order for all of this to have been accomplished, in doing so the portion of Kains soul that is attached to the demented Raziel's soul is absorbed into Kain and Raziel's soul goes off to wherever. Oblivion, spectral realm, Florida.

Now that segment of Kains soul is purified and spreads the purification throughout the rest of Kain.

I also presume this is why Raziel could not die. The portion anchoring him to the world could not be extinguished keeping him there. His ability to reave souls also allowed him to seperate the others from their anchor or else they too would have been immune to death.

If Kain does not go through the motions there is no purified reaver. If young Kain is purified there is no need to go through the motions thus no future purified Kain or reaver to purify the young kain.

It is Kain's soul becoming whole that grants him the purification.

Escaton
25th Mar 2010, 17:08
He doesn't have to alter history any more. The only reason he ever wanted to was the fact that his original fate led to Raziel murdering him in the Sarafan Stronghold, and to Raziel being trapped in the sword. With both of them expelled the Elder lived on and brought Nosgoth to its knees. That history was changed permanently and Nosgoth has a new one. We don't know where it leads, that's up to the developers, but Kain is now pure and he does not, or should not at the very least, need to rewrite the time continuum.

In my opinion Kain's role in the sequel should take place exclusively in the post-SR1 era which Turel describes as "dark, with great hunger". Other characters for a change can be utilised to explore the past. That's just what I think though.

Aurang
25th Mar 2010, 18:18
If Kain does not go through the motions there is no purified reaver. If young Kain is purified there is no need to go through the motions thus no future purified Kain or reaver to purify the young kain.

It is Kain's soul becoming whole that grants him the purification.

I know. Thats where the 'temporal artifact', the purified soul reaver from the now non-existent timeline, preserved as it served as an anchor to force the timeline to restructure itself, comes in. That is also why it still exists, and why the elder Kain in contrast went through a reversion to himself in the state he had left his fledgling self in (impaled by the purified soul reaver).

Instead of rewriting his past as he has traditionally done, as it fits in with his current fate (in which he cannot fulfill his destiny) he has instead rewritten his future from that point where the two timelines would have now diverged (where/when he purified himself and prevented the fledgling Kain from killing William).

The point is that none of that which took place in the original timeline is supposed to have happened anymore. The only things remaining of it are his memories of the alternate timeline (in accordance with canon), and the purified soul reaver (personal contrivance). The existence of the purified soul reaver is contradictory to itself, making it what I'm calling a temporal artifact, similar to the memories which are preserved of alternate timelines for individuals who manipulate the timeline, except that like I said before, it is a physical incarnation.

So I am not pretending in any way that the timeline as it existed originally at the end of Defiance has any bearing on the new timeline. Kain, using the purified soul reaver as an achor, 'forced a square through a circle" or "put his foot in the door". Its only relatively more impossible on the ridiculous scale, in comparison to Kain and Raziel's jaunts through time.


The soul reaver in the sword never sipped on souls. It absorbs them to be sent to the wheel for recycling.

Well, I only referred to it as the reaver drinking/absorbing/etc the fledgling Kain's soul. If you wanted to be more specific then yes its merely acting as a conduit which feeds the Elder God (through the use of Raziel's soul, its spectral component). However the equation would still be that it has an established connection with the fledgling Kain, in which his soul/essence is going into or through it, and it is in an in-flux state where it can't be expelled. Whether looking at it as passing through the blade itself or merely acting as a spectral conduit, either would require the sword's presence in this instance as it is part of the active conduit (even the wraith blade had to be stabbed into someone in order to accomplish this).

In this way you can look at it as Raziel's soul or the soul reaver being in flux. The fledgling Kain's soul isn't becoming a part of the blade, true, but it is still being devoured by it.



He doesn't have to alter history any more. The only reason he ever wanted to was the fact that his original fate led to Raziel murdering him in the Sarafan Stronghold, and to Raziel being trapped in the sword. With both of them expelled the Elder lived on and brought Nosgoth to its knees. That history was changed permanently and Nosgoth has a new one. We don't know where it leads, that's up to the developers, but Kain is now pure and he does not, or should not at the very least, need to rewrite the time continuum.

In my opinion Kain's role in the sequel should take place exclusively in the post-SR1 era which Turel describes as "dark, with great hunger". Other characters for a change can be utilised to explore the past. That's just what I think though.

I agree. However Kain should still be able to surmise that in order for his actions to have any further ultimate meaning, the pillars have to be either restored or saved. How that may come about in either instance can be theorized. Fans can write whatever story they wish for either instance.





An Exposition On The Nature of Time and Time Travel in Legacy of Kain

The structure of Nosgothic history logically implies the use of my exception, and as part of explaining this its necessary to mention that Nosgoth, at some point, had to have had a time travel-free timeline. No manipulations.

The very nature of this fact would make infractions impossible, as the nature of paradoxes are what makes time travel logically impossible (regardless of how the concept is a product of a gross misconception of 'time' anyway).

Since the timeline I've initiated in my story is sparked by manipulations from a another timeline which is deemed to have no longer taken place, then that means that a similar event would have had to have taken place at least once in an earlier point in Nosgoth's history, in order to have a history of Nosgoth sparked by manipulations from a future which has no longer taken place. (say that twice as fast)

According to this, logically, my exception has a precedent in the story, it just hasn't be expounded upon yet in the canon. If you read further, you'll see why and I'll give an example with an explanation.

Crystal Dynamics has just used the excuse that so long as a change doesn't cause 'fatal' contradictions, that the timeline will rearrange itself accordingly to accomodate the act of timeline manipulation, but that causes a loop.

For example; Kain is going back in time to kill William to cause the second vampire purge because his going back in time to kill William caused the second vampire purge, so Kain is going back in time to kill William to cause the second vampire purge because his going back in time to kill William caused the second vampire purge, so Kain is going back in time to kill William to cause the second vampire purge because his going back in time to kill William caused the second vampire purge, so Kain is going back in time to kill William to cause the second vampire purge because his going back in time to kill William caused the second vampire purge, so Kain is going back in time to kill William to cause the second vampire purge because his going back in time to kill William caused the second vampire purge...........................

So he's going back to kill a man who as far as he should be concerned is already going to die at the hands of a nameless vampire, which will cause the vampire purge itself. So if he went back to kill william to change something, it would ultimately result in the same thing anyway... again. The loop caused is illogical, which is in turn caused by Crystal Dynamics' illogic. I'll explain further below.

If anything this particular equation should result in Kain (possibly) trying to prevent William's death, but remember that the alternate timeline from whence the original assassin Kain came from is gone so there would be no alternate Kain to go back and kill William, so MY exception has to come into play according to the structure of canon history, since the event of William dying has become dependant on intervention from an agent of a timeline which no longer exists.

Otherwise, they're saying that the fledgling Kain from the altered timeline (the one where the second vampire purge took place), travelled into the past, killed William, and then travelled into the future with the memories associated with the timeline that he never actually lived in.

According to the logic you have to apply to Nosgothic history as it is laid out by the LoK canon, the nature of my exception takes place. They're not using my specific method in-story (with the use of the reaver) but the same exception is occurring.

A now non-existent agent from a non-existent timeline has caused a new history to unfold, and sparked a new timeline. Since there could only possibly be a single instance of a Kain which lived in the alternate timeline as well as possessed the memories associated with it, all loops afterward would be illogical, since afterwards a Kain from that alternate timeline would be going through the motions, and somehow afterward possessing the memories of a timeline he was never associated with.

Since according to canon this type of loop is in fact not taking place (evident by the fact that the universe doesn't collapse), it means my exception is coming into play.

Aranor
25th Mar 2010, 20:12
The original unaltered timeline I get, but when did the altering start. In order to set it back you would need to find that. And who is to say Moebius is the one responsible. A vampire time guardian could have mistakenly initiated all of this. Maybe even the war itself between vampires and hylden.

Kain now has the purified reaver with the purified soul of Raziel within but where are you getting the second sword to perform the temporal distortion?

You could use the one from Kain and Williams fight as stated above but in doing what you are saying you are relieving the sword of needing to hold Raziels portions of Kains soul (which I will get to in a moment) by passing it on to young Kain. As I said above once seperated Raziels soul was no longer needed and was either free to wonder as it would or was recycled/expelled. Thus Kain does not have the purified reaver to hand young Kain and no temporal distortion when Kain and William fight. Which also means no reason to send young Kain back.

As you said what happens would have happened whether or not young Kain went back to fight William, only the how and when changed. So for your story to work you still need to incorporate the events leading to future Kain being purified.

The portion of Kains soul which is purified can not be passed on to young Kain because young Kain is not missing it. So either a new method for future Kain to be purified needs to be created or it don't work.

The reaver has not once that I recall been seen giving anyone anything other than death. The powers it gets in Defiance are on the blade itself, and while the wielder is in control of them they still just holds on. The individial wielding it does not recieve the powers. So it purifying young Kain by impaling him is giving the reaver a new ability. Not to mention the one time Kain has been struck by the reaver it drained him enough to make him sleep for 200 years.

Aurang
25th Mar 2010, 20:53
The reaver has not once that I recall been seen giving anyone anything other than death. The powers it gets in Defiance are on the blade itself, and while the wielder is in control of them they still just holds on. The individial wielding it does not recieve the powers. So it purifying young Kain by impaling him is giving the reaver a new ability. Not to mention the one time Kain has been struck by the reaver it drained him enough to make him sleep for 200 years.

Hmm, you're right.

I could possibly explain away the fledgling Kain's ability to survive the ordeal as fate keeping him alive (similar to how the reaver blade in SR2 made Raziel invincible). It had to ensure that the proper events came to pass. Even then though, you're right about him needing a long time to rest afterwards.

I'll ponder that issue and comment on it later.


Kain now has the purified reaver with the purified soul of Raziel within but where are you getting the second sword to perform the temporal distortion?

You could use the one from Kain and Williams fight as stated above but in doing what you are saying you are relieving the sword of needing to hold Raziels portions of Kains soul (which I will get to in a moment) by passing it on to young Kain. As I said above once seperated Raziels soul was no longer needed and was either free to wonder as it would or was recycled/expelled. Thus Kain does not have the purified reaver to hand young Kain and no temporal distortion when Kain and William fight. Which also means no reason to send young Kain back.

As you said what happens would have happened whether or not young Kain went back to fight William, only the how and when changed. So for your story to work you still need to incorporate the events leading to future Kain being purified.

Response;

The point is that none of that which took place in the original timeline is supposed to have happened anymore. The only things remaining of it are his memories of the alternate timeline (in accordance with canon), and the purified soul reaver (personal contrivance). The existence of the purified soul reaver is contradictory to itself, making it what I'm calling a temporal artifact, similar to the memories which are preserved of alternate timelines for individuals who manipulate the timeline, except that like I said before, it is a physical incarnation.

So I am not pretending in any way that the timeline as it existed originally at the end of Defiance has any bearing on the new timeline. Kain, using the purified soul reaver as an achor, 'forced a square through a circle" or "put his foot in the door". Its only relatively more impossible on the ridiculous scale, in comparison to Kain and Raziel's jaunts through time.

The point was supposed to be that the previous timeline was now void, and it had no bearing on the state of existence of the purified soul reaver, allowing it to exist as a temporal artifact.

As for William's and Kain's swords, that poses a serious problem to my story.

Back to the drawing board!

Aranor
25th Mar 2010, 21:45
The use of multiverses would in fact allow for this but other than the physical, spectral and demon dimensions other worlds are not mentioned. And we have always had one of each item/person throughout the game.

Example, Kain and Williams reavers, same item taken from two seperate times. Time needed to find a way for Williams to be repaired for things to work.

Old and young Kain in the same time. Both the same Kain, different ages

Wraith and human Raziel in the same time. Both the same Raziel, different incarnations.

Had we been dealing with multiple universes then there could be infinite outcomes and possibilities. According to the multiverse theory every time there are multiple outcomes a new universe is made one for each outcome. http://dimplemoon.com/Main/DeepThought/Multiverse.html Should one be able to control their flight through such a thing then they could gather a thousand reavers and give time a really big headache.

But we are not. The device is known as the time travelling device and the guardian is the guardian of time. Not multiple universes. The events of Kains life from Blood Omen to Soul Reaver era are pretty much layed out and unchangeable.

They were changed, but like a game of chess you can only make so many moves until someone is in check mate.

Edit: The post I replied to here seems to have been altered or removed.

Aurang
25th Mar 2010, 21:47
Yeah, I just realized that the multiverse thing doesn't work too well and undermines the whole LoK story (logically). I now have a more proper reply to your previous post in my previous post.

Aurang
25th Mar 2010, 22:19
Okay, sorry about the bazillion alterations, I went back and edited out the crap about multiverses so no one would get confused by my u-turn.

I'll be looking over all the info you've provided, and seeing if I can't make the necessary revisions.

Thanks for taking the time to write me replies on the issues regarding my story :) It really helps in improving it.

Aranor
25th Mar 2010, 22:34
As I initially said, the best way to put your mark on the Legacy of Kain theme would be to take a character that is not a main part of the story and work with them.

On a side note, if you truly feel you could get something going you could always create your own world. Though it would not be Legacy of Kain but it would allow you to generate income and perhaps with better funding and a good crew make something Eidos might recognize.

Aurang
26th Mar 2010, 00:19
Yeah, I'm coming up with nothing. I admit defeat to Legacy of Kain.


I'll probably do that, I've got tons of muses for original projects.

Aurang
29th Mar 2010, 22:47
Okay, I have been thinking much longer and much harder than I did before.

I've decided to take the advice of a few members, and have some ideas for a post-SR era game.


Post-SR Era Idea

Kain returns to Nosgoth's future (a century past the events of SR), to find that much has taken place in his absence.

Humanity has begun to recover in Nosgoth (as well as the land itself), rebuilding their cities, and driving back the remnants of the corrupted vampire offspring of Kain's lieutenants (their absence making this task much easier, as the clans have largely been left in disarray).

Vorador (who has been assumed to be killed at some point post-BO2) comes out of hiding with the few vampires that follow him, reinhabiting and fortifying their abode within Termogent forest, bolstering their ranks and slaying their malformed cousins.

New human pillar guardians have been born, although the symbol of their legacy lies shattered, the pillars themselves have been spiritually 'restored', and Nosgoth has begun its recovery (everyone assumed that Kain's disappearance marked his death, since it coincided with the restoration of the pillars). They are not as strong as they once were, especially under human guardianship, but at the moment things are improving and life is returning to Nosgoth. For the first time in centuries, rays of sunlight openly touch the wasteland, the humans of that era see a blue sky, and watch in awe as plants and trees begin to grow again.

Its as if Nosgoth itself has woken up from a very dark nightmare.

Note: It can be debated whether or not the pillars can be restored after their collapse. This story assumes that spiritual restoration is all that is required.

Taking advantage of the situation, the Elder God had recruited as many of the new pillar guardians as he could among his first followers, taking the first step towards establishing himself as the dominant religious icon in Nosgoth, just as he had done with the ancient vampires. Eager to sate his hunger, he has set them to the task of cleansing Nosgoth of the remnants of the vampire menace.

The Sarafan order has been rebuilt, largely subsuming most of the disparate vampire hunting sects which inhabited Nosgoth prior to its restoration.

The human kingdoms have begun to rise from the ashes.

As Kain returns, he finds himself to be one of the most hated beings in all of existence. Vorador and his followers reject Kain, for his hunting them after the rise of his empire and his murder of Umah centuries before (for which Vorador still hasn't forgiven Kain). The humans, their actions orchestrated by the manipulations of the Elder God, hate Kain most of all, blaming him for the previous decay of Nosgoth.

On the horizon Kain see's the forestalled invasion from the demon dimension, knowing that whether or not the dimensional barriers would heal in time, that the Hylden or an equally malevolent force would waiting for their chance to orchestrate the pillars' corruption once again.

You will play as the Kain and/or the guardian of the pillar of conflict, a human vampire hunter.


Hopes:


Less linear gameplay that allows for the player to freely explore areas (new and old).
----------
Some old abilities will be making a reappearance to allow this (disguise from BO). Keep in mind some enemies won't be fooled by this.
----------
Side-quests.
----------
A level system will be used. The more experience you gain, the more dark gifts you get, and you can use experience to upgrade your character (the dark gifts, evolutionary characteristics, abilities, etc). Some of these will allow you to progress in the story or complete certain side-quests (it is assumed that this system will mostly come into play for the fledgling vampire guardian of conflict).
----------
In a throwback towards BO, you will be able to acquire and equip items, and keep other objects in your inventory. You can find items and artifacts while adventuring, completing side-quests, looting the enemy's dead, or by going through more complex quests to have them forged by Vorador. You will also have the option of upgrading otherwise not very useful equipment.
----------
Other things will be added to this list as they are thought up by me or suggested by others, and some may be removed as they are boo'd from the stage by LoK fans.


These are my aims so far. If you have suggestions or sensible objections, please post them! :D

st.srki
30th Mar 2010, 07:46
Post-SR Era seems very good and interesting. I like it :)
Also, if you need modeler for your project, count me in.

Aurang
30th Mar 2010, 15:15
Well I'm not throwing a team together just yet, but when it comes time for that I'll definitely PM you about it. :)

Right now I'm modelling a few essential things that I'll be using in a demo, so that people can get a feel for what the game will be like.

So I'm working on Kain, the soul reaver, props, and the design of the buildings & town layout of Ziegsturhl. This is just to set the foundation and provide a rough demo of a smaller area.

I'll have to recruit someone from the UDK forums to do the programming for it (unrealscript).

Aranor
30th Mar 2010, 16:47
One of the main goals throughout the entire game and one presumably accomplished in the next title should it ever arrive is the restoration of the pillars. Kain thus far is the one to accomplish this. In some 2400 years the pillars have not been able to select new guardians due to their state of ruin.

Kain can not come back after they have been repaired. Until Kain restores them (However that might be) they are corrupt and shattered. No new guardians.

Aurang
30th Mar 2010, 17:58
One of the main goals throughout the entire game and one presumably accomplished in the next title should it ever arrive is the restoration of the pillars. Kain thus far is the one to accomplish this. In some 2400 years the pillars have not been able to select new guardians due to their state of ruin.

Kain can not come back after they have been repaired. Until Kain restores them (However that might be) they are corrupt and shattered. No new guardians.

I don't believe its ever specified that Kain's death or purification wouldn't 'restore' the pillars post-collapse (in my story, its meant to purely be a spiritual restoration, they still appear broken, but work). Its theorized by Raziel that Kain's death wouldn't restore the pillars during his talk with Ariel in SR2, but thats it.

I agree that Kain has been trying to find a way to restore the pillars, without killing himself. Now that he has been purified, that might very well have happened (that end is left loose). Common assertions to the pillars not being restorable in the future find their roots in Kain not being able to fulfill his destiny in that time (because he's corrupted, and therefore the pillars cannot be restored). People usually take this to mean that they cannot be restored because they are destroyed and/or he is corrupted (i.e lingering state of corruption vs. state of ruin). Whether or not his purification would accomplish this is anyone's guess. To make this story work, I've chosen to guess that it would.

Note: People are free to believe otherwise, I'm only pointing out that its just a common assertion and not written in stone. If it is true, then Square Enix Europe can feel free to make a correct game and invalidate the course of events in mine. I'm only trying to provide something which will be interesting/fun for fans.

dumah's wraith
30th Mar 2010, 19:30
Okay, I have been thinking much longer and much harder than I did before.

I've decided to take the advice of a few members, and have some ideas for a post-SR era game.


Post-SR Era Idea

Kain returns to Nosgoth's future (a century past the events of SR), to find that much has taken place in his absence.

Humanity has begun to recover in Nosgoth (as well as the land itself), rebuilding their cities, and driving back the remnants of the corrupted vampire offspring of Kain's lieutenants (their absence making this task much easier, as the clans have largely been left in disarray).

Vorador (who has been assumed to be killed at some point post-BO2) comes out of hiding with the few vampires that follow him, reinhabiting and fortifying their abode within Termogent forest, bolstering their ranks and slaying their malformed cousins.

New human pillar guardians have been born, although the symbol of their legacy lies shattered, the pillars themselves have been spiritually 'restored', and Nosgoth has begun its recovery (everyone assumed that Kain's disappearance marked his death, since it coincided with the restoration of the pillars). They are not as strong as they once were, especially under human guardianship, but at the moment things are improving and life is returning to Nosgoth. For the first time in centuries, rays of sunlight openly touch the wasteland, the humans of that era see a blue sky, and watch in awe as plants and trees begin to grow again.

Its as if Nosgoth itself has woken up from a very dark nightmare.

Note: It can be debated whether or not the pillars can be restored after their collapse. This story assumes that spiritual restoration is all that is required.

Taking advantage of the situation, the Elder God had recruited as many of the new pillar guardians as he could among his first followers, taking the first step towards establishing himself as the dominant religious icon in Nosgoth, just as he had done with the ancient vampires. Eager to sate his hunger, he has set them to the task of cleansing Nosgoth of the remnants of the vampire menace.

The Sarafan order has been rebuilt, largely subsuming most of the disparate vampire hunting sects which inhabited Nosgoth prior to its restoration.

The human kingdoms have begun to rise from the ashes.

As Kain returns, he finds himself to be one of the most hated beings in all of existence. Vorador and his followers reject Kain, for his hunting them after the rise of his empire and his murder of Umah centuries before (for which Vorador still hasn't forgiven Kain). The humans, their actions orchestrated by the manipulations of the Elder God, hate Kain most of all, blaming him for the previous decay of Nosgoth.

On the horizon Kain see's the forestalled invasion from the demon dimension, knowing that whether or not the dimensional barriers would heal in time, that the Hylden or an equally malevolent force would waiting for their chance to orchestrate the pillars' corruption once again.

You will play as the Kain and/or the guardian of the pillar of conflict, a human vampire hunter.


Hopes:


Less linear gameplay that allows for the player to freely explore areas (new and old).
----------
Some old abilities will be making a reappearance to allow this (disguise from BO). Keep in mind some enemies won't be fooled by this.
----------
Side-quests.
----------
A level system will be used. The more experience you gain, the more dark gifts you get, and you can use experience to upgrade your character (the dark gifts, evolutionary characteristics, abilities, etc). Some of these will allow you to progress in the story or complete certain side-quests (it is assumed that this system will mostly come into play for the fledgling vampire guardian of conflict).
----------
In a throwback towards BO, you will be able to acquire and equip items, and keep other objects in your inventory. You can find items and artifacts while adventuring, completing side-quests, looting the enemy's dead, or by going through more complex quests to have them forged by Vorador. You will also have the option of upgrading otherwise not very useful equipment.
----------
Other things will be added to this list as they are thought up by me or suggested by others, and some may be removed as they are boo'd from the stage by LoK fans.


These are my aims so far. If you have suggestions or sensible objections, please post them! :D

Actually, I really like this one. It makes sense and avoids all the dangerous time travelling that's hard to account for. There's also scope for varied enemies -humans, Vorador's vampires, the brethren vampires, EG's agents, Hylden agents...Sounds like it could be very good.

Aranor
30th Mar 2010, 21:40
A couple of things though. Kains purification reviving the pillars only works if he returns. Your saying he returns 100 years after he left means they could only just begin reviving at the moment of which he returns. Not the moment after he left. Unless he were to return that moment. (His reentry to the current time, the time of SR1 will initiate that purification process. He needs to be present for it to take affect)

If somehow the pillars gathered enough strength to be able to summon new guardians, if you read the quote below you will see the guardians being humans only damages them. Thus they would not be able to sustain the strength for long

http://www.nosgoth.net/Defiance/dialogue/dialogue12.htm

Please not the image of the ancient vampire holding the reaver looks somewhat like Kain with blue skin and wings.


Janos
Curse or blessing, it is the price we pay to keep the Hylden banished from the land. To sustain the Binding, we had to preserve our bloodline. And so we passed the dark gift to the human successors of our fallen Guardians. They rebelled, inevitably, refusing the curse and seizing the Pillars as their own.
And so we come to our present dilemma. While mankind governs the Pillars, the Binding decays. The Hylden strain against the barriers of their prison, scratching to gain a foothold back into this world.

This next quote taken from the SR2 dialogue pretty much defeats the Kain being purified purifies the pillars thought. It states that the reaver is the key to the pillars which are the lock to the binding. And as stated above the binding is the magic the pillars were made to enforce. To keep the Hylden out of Nosgoth. So something must be done with the reaver to either secure or unlock the binding/pillars. And that presumably needs to be done in the post SR era.

http://www.nosgoth.net/sr2/dialogue/Script9-v3.html


Janos
The Binding must be secured, Raziel.
The Pillars are the lock –

Following him, Raziel completes the thought –

Raziel
– and the Reaver is the key.

Janos
(pleased)
Yes.

The elder god states that he has many agents, but never states who they are or what they can do. The only individuals with powers are either tied to the pillars or are from the time of the war between the ancients and hylden. (Moebius and the other guardians, The seer, Raziel and the other Lieutenants whom are tied to kain whom is tied to the pillars and Janos) So for all we know these other agents are just people whom believe in him. You could take up that aspect. "Darkfriends" of sorts. I imagine he could have a vast pool of knowledge to share with them if he chose.

Aurang
31st Mar 2010, 03:51
A couple of things though. Kains purification reviving the pillars only works if he returns. Your saying he returns 100 years after he left means they could only just begin reviving at the moment of which he returns. Not the moment after he left. Unless he were to return that moment. (His reentry to the current time, the time of SR1 will initiate that purification process. He needs to be present for it to take affect)

Says who?

I could theorize that Kain shares a state within his own era of history, at the point he left it (or deviated), as he has to be relevent to a point in time, since canon shows that he is subject to cause and effect. He is only 'deviating' from his native time, and his existence is still dependant upon it (or the structure events in it crucial to his existence). As an element of Nosgoth's history at the end of SR, his 'history' could very well be an extension of it (which is to say that he exists in the instant in which he left, as he is relevent to it... otherwise, like I've already alluded to, he wouldn't be subject to cause and effect).

However, that is just a theory, and I'm by no means positing it as fact.

All the same, I can posit it.


If somehow the pillars gathered enough strength to be able to summon new guardians, if you read the quote below you will see the guardians being humans only damages them. Thus they would not be able to sustain the strength for long

That doesn't necessarily point towards the pillars ultimately failing under human guardianship. It might merely mean that humans can't maintain them to the standard where the dimensional barriers are strong enough to prevent Hylden intrusion.

Note: Its likely that around the time of the circle's of corruption, that the barriers were probably about as weak as they were going to get. Otherwise, the dark entity would have felt no motivation to corrupt the circle; the binding would have further decayed on its own without intervention from the Hylden. (By 'binding' I'm guessing Janos is referring to the strength of the dimensional barriers)

Note: Unless the existence of the pillars themselves serves as a 'minumum' that keeps the Hylden trapped in the demon dimension, in which case it would seem that only a powerful Hylden (like the Hylden Lord) can possibly breach it and survive (so as to build the Hylden Gate... which his weaker brethren would need to survive the transition and live on afterwards).


This next quote taken from the SR2 dialogue pretty much defeats the Kain being purified purifies the pillars thought. It states that the reaver is the key to the pillars which are the lock to the binding. And as stated above the binding is the magic the pillars were made to enforce. To keep the Hylden out of Nosgoth. So something must be done with the reaver to either secure or unlock the binding/pillars. And that presumably needs to be done in the post SR era.

That I cannot argue with. However, consider this quote (taken from here (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/914777/25247)).


6) If Ariel is absorbed into the Wraith Blade at the time of BO then how does
she appear in SR and SR2?

A: It has been theorised that this Ariel was from the future, the era of SR
or beyond. The evidence for this is that Ariel knows his name. Ariel when she
met Raziel in SR2 and earlier in the game did not know his name.

The reason why Ariel has an unblemished face is that the Spirit Forge has
purified her.

This is likely true, since Ariel was doomed to be bound to the corrupted pillar of balance until it was restored. Her presence and knowledge of Raziel would suggest that she is from the SR era, and that the balance pillar she was bound to was restored.

Ariel was fated to go to Raziel at that time (thats how Crystal Dynamics would probably word it).

Whether this means that the pillars were restored instantly at the moment he and Raziel travelled into the past, or if she is from a time where Kain went into the future and restored the pillars, is anyone's guess.


Now, in light of all this and the useful information you've brought forward, I could make it so that...

1. My original story as it was.

OR

2. In the past, after the events of Defiance, Kain uses the soul reaver to 'secure' the pillars, and the affect only comes into play after the events of soul reaver, at the moment he and Raziel travel into the past, 'when' it becomes destined that Kain will be purified, and so coincides with his existential relevence to that point in time (where/when he first diverged from it into the past).

Travelling into the future, to the point he believes will be that moment when he had left, Kain finds himself catapulted roughly a century past that time instead, for unknown reasons (Kain later deducts that it was an affect of the pillars restoration, causing havok with the fabric of time at that moment due to Nosgoth's history being critically rewritten past that point from one of oblivion to recovery.)

OR

3. Kain goes back into the future and uses the Reaver to restore the pillars, or 'reset' them, so that they will acknowledge that he is pure of corruption, and select new pillar guardians. Kain is determined to bring the pillars under vampiric guardianship, but as the years go by, the humans are emboldened by the first signs of Nosgoth's revival, and by the death of Kain's vampire lieutenants.

At this time, the Elder God seizes his opportunity. Whispering to those influential among the humans, including and especially the pillar guardians, he goads and fans the flames of their hatred towards vampires, sewing his lies and manipulating them like he did Raziel. Flooding out of their citadels and strongholds around Nosgoth, their morale higher than it had ever been before in Nosgoth's recent history, they drive back the vampire clans, which were left in disarray by their late masters. A grand slaughter ensues.

However, directed by the Elder God and not requiring much encouragement, their one goal is clear; destroy Kain, the one they believe is responsible for all the destruction which had been wrought in the past millennia. The mobs hunt him in throngs, and Kain sees the futility in trying to slay them all. Avoiding his pursuers, Kain finds himself painted into a corner, surrounded on all sides, and so flees to the only refuge left to him; the chronoplast.

However, during his desperate running battle, the vampire hunters damage one of the machine's mechanisms. Intending only to use the machine to transport himself to another point in space (which he had learned to do in the intervening years), Kain is instead catapulted roughly a century into the future, finding himself falling down towards the Lake of the Dead, and barely managing to grasp hold of the platforms ledge, which stands protruding from the watery depths.

This version basically rolls into #1, except as you've read I've added new events prior to his journey into the future.


Darkfriends... Wheel of Time fan? ;)

Aranor
1st Apr 2010, 17:16
Quote:
A couple of things though. Kains purification reviving the pillars only works if he returns. Your saying he returns 100 years after he left means they could only just begin reviving at the moment of which he returns. Not the moment after he left. Unless he were to return that moment. (His reentry to the current time, the time of SR1 will initiate that purification process. He needs to be present for it to take affect)

Says who?

Says Blood Omen. When kain killed William he did not know the change of the time he came from until he returned to it. Which means he did not experience it yet. He had to be back to his normal time.
had somehow something or someone stopped Kain from going back before he returned then it never would have happened.

His being pure could not affect the post SR era until his presence is returned to it. Just like had he died when he should have Nosgoth would have just gone on without him as he would not have returned. So if he does return 100 years after he left, then there is an absence of kain for 100 years. Nothing about him would affect the world for that time.

And yes, The Wheel of Time is an awesome series.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 19:04
Kain remembers the alternate timeline instantly in the past when he saves Raziel from being devoured by the reaver in SR2. This makes more sense, since when he changed the past it had to have affected events up to when he went into the past. Like I said before, his state is relevent to the point in time he first diverged from the timeline in SR.

If changes in the timeline only counted when Kain returned to the point of divergence in time, then that means he could conceivably murder his younger self and never be expelled from the timeline if he chose not to travel through time again. Also like I said before, he is only deviating from his present time as an anomally in the timeline, and his state existentially coincides with the moment he travelled into the past in SR.

I'm saying that he only exists in the present. If he travels into the past, he will still exist in the present, he is merely deviating from it, and is still subject to it. This is why he can't change the past himself without using Raziel or a reaver paradox, and why he himself is subject to paradoxes.

If he dies or his state changes in any way, he is altering the present (his native time, i.e the moment he left, or when he deviated from it), because that is the when he is existing in. Everything which happens to him, and thus in that moment, IS fated to happen after he saves Raziel from being devoured by the reaver the first time.

If he alters the past using the Raziel or Reaver exceptions (without causing a fatal paradox), he isn't altering the present (the present being the point in time he travelled into the past), only reshuffling the events which came before it, since he still arrived at that point and still travelled into the past to accomplish the act which changed the timeline.

Also, his purification wouldn't have in any way altered the past, only his present state, so it wouldn't have applied anyway.

Aranor
1st Apr 2010, 20:35
And that is where we disagree. If he were to return to the future then there is still time for him to be killed thus the "present" never experiences his return. Thus the pillards would not resonate with his being purified until he returns.

For all we know the instant he left for the past the pillars could have seased to recognize his being and fully shattered. The entire Hylden army could be waiting for him when he gets back.

Even if the pillar would feel his being purified through time in your scenario there is 100 years for something to go wrong.

Aurang
1st Apr 2010, 20:51
If he were to return to the future then there is still time for him to be killed thus the "present" never experiences his return. Thus the pillards would not resonate with his being purified until he returns.

Supposing he was purified, and he was killed before he could do any more time travelling, his soul would still be pure. Time would progress until the moment the past Kain and Raziel travelled back in time in SR, and the same thing would happen. He would be destined to die, and he would be destined to end up at that point.

Same thing would happen if he died before purification (assuming that the pillars would settle for him being simply dead).

Note: If this indeed happened, the past Kain would likely see this when peering into (his) future and be like, "oh crap!" and then think of a very complex scheme involving Raziel and time travel to avoid it. Wait, that sounds kind of familiar...

To borrow a tool from Crystal Dynamics, "Things happened like this in that instance because x is now destined to y."

However, despite that, what I'm saying is that he exists in the present regardless of to when he deviates, and the moment he is purified the pillars in the present acknowledge it.


And that is where we disagree.

Well, this is a difference of how one approaches time travel and the 'existence' of anomalies in LoK. Your version is understandable but no more credible than mine.


For all we know the instant he left for the past the pillars could have seased to recognize his being and fully shattered. The entire Hylden army could be waiting for him when he gets back.

That is a possibility.


Even if the pillar would feel his being purified through time in your scenario there is 100 years for something to go wrong.

That is also a possibility. I hope it will make for an interesting story ;)

dumah's wraith
1st Apr 2010, 22:23
Curse or blessing, it is the price we pay to keep the Hylden banished from the land. To sustain the Binding, we had to preserve our bloodline. And so we passed the dark gift to the human successors of our fallen Guardians. They rebelled, inevitably, refusing the curse and seizing the Pillars as their own.
And so we come to our present dilemma. While mankind governs the Pillars, the Binding decays. The Hylden strain against the barriers of their prison, scratching to gain a foothold back into this world.

I'm not sure Janos can be trusted when he says this. First of all, he's a vampire, and most vampires we've seen in the game are inherently arrogant. Kain, Vorador, Raziel and brethren, the bosses in BO2...

Second: Janos has been dead for 500 years. He doesn't know about Ariel's murder, Mortanius' possession, or Moebius' machinations, he only knows that the binding has seriously decayed since he was alive, and assumes that it was because of flawed human guardianship.

It states that the reaver is the key to the pillars which are the lock to the binding. And as stated above the binding is the magic the pillars were made to enforce. To keep the Hylden out of Nosgoth. So something must be done with the reaver to either secure or unlock the binding/pillars. And that presumably needs to be done in the post SR era.

If that was true, wouldn't the Sarafan Lord have used it to destroy them utterly when he stole the Reaver from Kain?

Aranor
2nd Apr 2010, 16:22
That would depend on his knowledge of the pillars. At the time the Hylden Lord could have been a wee tike and grown up in the demon dimension to lay claim to that title. If he was the Lord of the Hylden at the time of the banishement and he knew how the pillars worked then I would presume he would have done something to try and stop them. Holding the key to something does not mean you know it is a key. Or what it goes to. (I have often pondered what locks half the keys on my key chain go to)

antun01
14th Apr 2010, 09:11
Why not try to make SR HD?:o

Shezon
17th Apr 2010, 10:08
Heads up !

I read in Crymod.com that Crytek is planning to release a FREE standalone version of their CryENGINE 3

So , I guess you wait for that and use it to build the game more easily and less buggy that if you went with the Unreal Engine 3 ...

You know how much it is graphically insane !

antun01
20th Apr 2010, 08:49
Heads up !

I read in Crymod.com that Crytek is planning to release a FREE standalone version of their CryENGINE 3

So , I guess you wait for that and use it to build the game more easily and less buggy that if you went with the Unreal Engine 3 ...

You know how much it is graphically insane !

I heard it too, CryEngine 3 and Unreal Engine 3 are pretty much same,maybe visuals are better in Cryengine 3.

Shezon
21st Apr 2010, 01:06
I heard it too, CryEngine 3 and Unreal Engine 3 are pretty much same,maybe visuals are better in Cryengine 3.

No they aren't !

CryENGINE speeds the creation of virtual worlds pretty much , it comes with a lot of textures + objects + characters preloaded (CryENGINE 2) ... I Just grapped a demo of Crysis and played with SandBox2 a little . Great Physx and real-time creation . I can't wait to test the fully-standalone CryENGINE 3 !

antun01
21st Apr 2010, 13:30
Cryengine 3 running on console hardware is like cryengine 2 running on medium settings,ocean is flat, draw distance is small, textures look pretty bad in cryengine 3.

Shezon
21st Apr 2010, 14:31
Cryengine 3 running on console hardware is like cryengine 2 running on medium settings,ocean is flat, draw distance is small, textures look pretty bad in cryengine 3.
Maybe , but how about CE3 on PC ?

I think that CE3 is pretty an excelent start for small projects like this one . Plus , no engine can beat CE3 quick workflow ...

antun01
21st Apr 2010, 18:34
We will see cryengine 3 is still in develoment but in presentation is visible that cryengine 2 is far more better.

Shezon
22nd Apr 2010, 22:50
We will see cryengine 3 is still in develoment but in presentation is visible that cryengine 2 is far more better.

Of course , CE3 is lighter because of consoles lacking of RAM and VRAM ... But that doesn't mean it is worse in terms of tech. and graphics ... We only got those trailers of CE3 that we are basing our thoughts upon . No one has experminted with it in Real-Life and judge for sure ...

Finally , its up to Aranor and his team to choose the engine that they are familiar with which is - up until now - UDK ...