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Xenonetix
12th Mar 2014, 16:21
Hi all,

Here's another one of those suggestions I have (as a player) that I felt deserves a full thread.


Game Mode: The Hunt
Players: 4 to 6
Time per round: 3 minutes
Total Time: 14-21 minutes

So, the basic premise is that this is a Boss Battle, where one player is the Boss! There would be 3 to 5 players on the Human team, all with their regular abilities (Update: except for Bolas), weapons and health, against 1 player as a Vampire with:


Triple to Quintuple Health (dependent on number of Humans)
1 Special Attack
2 Primary Attacks
2 Secondary Attacks
Ability Durations Halved (which apply to the Vampire)

The humans have 3 minutes to defeat the super-powered Vampire. Humans respawn, but the Vampire does not. Everything else in the games and maps stay the same. As soon as the Vampire dies, the round is over.

In between rounds, there are 30 seconds for everyone to get ready. There are 4 to 6 rounds to give each individual player a chance to be the Vampire Boss.

Optionally, there could be a "Vampire Health" display top centre just under the time limit to show progress.

Naturally, there would have to be some serious balancing done initially, but I'm sure this could work in future. What do you guys think?

Vampmaster
12th Mar 2014, 16:24
The Lieutenants! :D

cmstache
12th Mar 2014, 16:24
Sounds fun to me! I've always liked Juggernaut-type game modes.

Oroibahazopi
12th Mar 2014, 18:18
It would need 10 times the health and CC immunity.

Huh would be like playing GW2 again.

Boreaquis
12th Mar 2014, 18:25
It would need 10 times the health and CC immunity.

Huh would be like playing GW2 again.

Something like that yeah. Still, would be fun.

Korevas
12th Mar 2014, 19:23
It would need 10 times the health and CC immunity.

Huh would be like playing GW2 again.

This is an important point. Among other things, many of the human's abilities would have to be rebalanced and/or reworked strictly for this mode. Also, the boss vampire would need his own assets (model, voice etc.) and a power set, probably more if he were to get the same loadout flexibility all other classes get. On the other hand, none of this effort would be of any use to the rest of the game, as you could hardly re-use the Boss Vamp in TDM or siege mode for instance.

All of this combined is a relatively big chunk of design/programming work with relatively little payoff, so I don't think it would rank high on the to-do list. From what we've seen with siege, I'd assume that one of the reasons they did it how it is, is that all maps and assets from tdm can be translated to it with little effort, which is quite a reasonable thing to do IMO, and this suggestion probably doesn't quite fit in there.

Xenonetix
12th Mar 2014, 19:29
This is an important point. Among other things, many of the human's abilities would have to be rebalanced and/or reworked strictly for this mode. Also, the boss vampire would need his own assets (model, voice etc.) and a power set, probably more if he were to get the same loadout flexibility all other classes get. On the other hand, none of this effort would be of any use to the rest of the game, as you could hardly re-use the Boss Vamp in TDM or siege mode for instance.

All of this combined is a relatively big chunk of design/programming work with relatively little payoff, so I don't think it would rank high on the to-do list.

I don't see why any of it needs to be rebalanced. The only thing that needs to be adjusted is the Vampire Boss health I think. He wouldn't need a unique skin, power set, or assets, and my suggestion was that the person playing the boss could choose whether to be Sentinel, Tyrant, or Reaver. Being the only vampire in the level, there wouldn't be a problem recognising who the boss is, so I'm not sure why you feel a "relatively big chunk of design/programming work" is needed at all...

Lord_Aevum
12th Mar 2014, 19:36
I think it would be a missed opportunity not to use the Lieutenants and Eskandor here, if something like this were to be introduced. A generic vampire to represent the boss wouldn't make much sense in the context of the world, because they're just fledgling mooks.

Korevas
12th Mar 2014, 19:53
I don't see why any of it needs to be rebalanced. The only thing that needs to be adjusted is the Vampire Boss health I think.

4 People chaining bolas would break him, as would chain blinds. Alternating charged warbow shots and interrupting knive throws would be mean, he couldn't play around stationary aoes well because he's alone and he would generally have a *big* problem when humans just stand around far away from each other so he couldn't use any aoe but would be pelted by the entire human team constantly.


He wouldn't need a unique skin, power set, or assets, and my suggestion was that the person playing the boss could choose whether to be Sentinel, Tyrant, or Reaver. Being the only vampire in the level, there wouldn't be a problem recognising who the boss is, so I'm not sure why you feel a "relatively big chunk of design/programming work" is needed at all...

I assumed from the alternate power set that he was supposed to be his own class. But even with the default classes being pimped, I don't think their playstyles lend themselves well to fighting against a crowd alone, so they would at least need specific moves and animations designed specifically for this purpose.


Ultimately, neither vampires' nor humans' abilities are designed in a way that would mesh well with the requirements of this specific mode I think.

Omhxyz
12th Mar 2014, 23:34
I would love to have mode like that, not something competitive but just for fun like saxton hale in tf2. Would be nice to have a new skin/model for the boss vampire but i doubt its really that important.

Regarding the balance issues, i don't think it would be too hard to adjust. Worried that vampire gonna be too easy to kill? Obviously a boss would be immune to bola/blind effects, could easily give him extra speed/health/damage on skills, longer duration or shorter cd. Think some skills(bola/blind) gonna be too useless in that mode then? Make it so that they at least slow the vampire a little instead of CC. So many options just with the skills/skins already in the game without interfering with other modes, tho it would need A LOT OF testing.

Xenonetix
13th Mar 2014, 04:05
Ok - Updated the first post to say Humans would not be allowed to use Bolas. Looking down the list of weapons and abilities, I think those are the only things that could be classified as "too restricting". I think blind effects could still apply realistically, but maybe half the duration of the usual time, which I've also added.

Razaiim
13th Mar 2014, 04:28
Really, all the adjusting for human power could be done on the vampire itself, so I don't see the humans needing to be tweaked. This could be fun if done properly. And I agree the Boss mode vampire should have a look unique from playable skins, even if his base class is going to one of the already playable ones.

And giving him multiple abilities would be cool, perhaps with a toggle for example:

Boss Reaver:
RMB is Pounce/Savage Pounce
Q is Choking Haze
F is Haste
shift+RMB is Leap Attack
shift+Q is Shadow Bomb
shift+F is Evasion

I picked shift since all it does for vampires is allow for climbing, and put the mobility/escape skills on shift, but the player can change the skill slots at will.

Vampmaster
13th Mar 2014, 07:31
If the lieutenants are larger than existing vampires then maybe bolas could attach to one limb at a time and only have the effect of slowing the vampire down as opposed to what they currently do.

Razaiim
13th Mar 2014, 16:14
Pfft I don't think having a couple metal balls dangling from an arm would even warrant a reaction from one of these vampires

DraegonSpawn
13th Mar 2014, 18:12
I like the hold shift idea for the boss. But lets do one better. Make the boss Omni-class. He has his choice of 6 skills, from any classes. Also gets two perks. And can fly regardless of taking a sentinel skill. This lets the vampire player feel they have control of their play style. I didn't play the LOK games, so I don't know if that works with the lore at all.

4000-6000 health should do it based on the number of humans. Seeing as all healing factors in game are % based, the humans huge goal is to not let him feed. This leaves his health low enough that he is going to need to use gorilla tactics to kill the humans, but high enough to jump in knock heads and get out.

In regards to CC from the humans, make bola's/knives a slow. Blinds last 1/2-1/3 as long. Humans really don't have any other cc.

The big question here is what is the win condition. If it is for the vampire boss to live, he is going to run and hide, and with a vampires higher mobility he will always get away. Humans will have to spread out. Easy win for the vamp.
If he gets points for kills, then humans stick together. The win condition is actually hardest to decide in my opinion.

Xenonetix
13th Mar 2014, 18:15
The big question here is what is the win condition. If it is for the vampire boss to live, he is going to run and hide, and with a vampires higher mobility he will always get away. Humans will have to spread out. Easy win for the vamp.
If he gets points for kills, then humans stick together. The win condition is actually hardest to decide in my opinion.

Agreed - This is one of the balance issues that's a problem. I feel the Vampire should definitely be rewarded more for killing the humans than not, but there has to also be a reward for surviving. I guess how much damage is dealt by each individual human and how much health the Vampire has remaining at the end also has to be taken into account. Tricky thing to figure out.

Razaiim
13th Mar 2014, 20:12
If you are thinking of a win condition and want multiple rounds for each player to be a vampire:

If the Vampire wipes all humans: Vampire wins 2 points
If Humans kill Vampire: Human win 2 points
If Timer Expires: Draw Human and Vamps get 1
The winning player is the one with the most points total'd after all rounds.

cmstache
13th Mar 2014, 20:17
If you are thinking of a win condition and want multiple rounds for each player to be a vampire:

If the Vampire wipes all humans: Vampire wins 2 points
If Humans kill Vampire: Human win 2 points
If Timer Expires: Draw Human and Vamps get 1
The winning player is the one with the most points total'd after all rounds.


I like that.

Razaiim
13th Mar 2014, 20:25
I like the hold shift idea for the boss. But lets do one better. Make the boss Omni-class. He has his choice of 6 skills, from any classes. Also gets two perks. And can fly regardless of taking a sentinel skill. This lets the vampire player feel they have control of their play style. I didn't play the LOK games, so I don't know if that works with the lore at all.

4000-6000 health should do it based on the number of humans. Seeing as all healing factors in game are % based, the humans huge goal is to not let him feed. This leaves his health low enough that he is going to need to use gorilla tactics to kill the humans, but high enough to jump in knock heads and get out.

In regards to CC from the humans, make bola's/knives a slow. Blinds last 1/2-1/3 as long. Humans really don't have any other cc.

The big question here is what is the win condition. If it is for the vampire boss to live, he is going to run and hide, and with a vampires higher mobility he will always get away. Humans will have to spread out. Easy win for the vamp.
If he gets points for kills, then humans stick together. The win condition is actually hardest to decide in my opinion.

I just picked a class for ease of understanding. Also, Vampires besides Razielim don't fly. In Defiance and Blood Omen 2 there was a "float" for controlled landings and silent landings (Blood omen 2 had a weak stealth element in it). Kain was able to change into a flock of bats at certain points in Defiance (was really just a glorified end level sequence, with no control). So no flight unless he is Razielim.

4000-6000 is a lot. I'm thinking maybe smaller pool, with heightened regen speed, and a passive damage resistance.

Xenonetix
13th Mar 2014, 23:35
If you are thinking of a win condition and want multiple rounds for each player to be a vampire:

If the Vampire wipes all humans: Vampire wins 2 points
If Humans kill Vampire: Human win 2 points
If Timer Expires: Draw Human and Vamps get 1
The winning player is the one with the most points total'd after all rounds.

That would only work if the Humans don't respawn, but I don't want people to die and then be waiting around for awhile for the round to finish. I definitely think that the Vampire wins if the timer runs out, because the Humans have failed to "Hunt" him in the time allocated.

Definitely needs to be related to damage in some fashion I think.

Razaiim
14th Mar 2014, 03:59
Give the win to the player with the most vampire kills before the end of the match? I feel like having the Vampire win the round at the end of the timer is poor because with the Vampire's mobility, coupled with this boss-mode vampire's skills, it would become a very dull game of keep away. It should be a draw I think.

Xenonetix
14th Mar 2014, 21:35
Give the win to the player with the most vampire kills before the end of the match? I feel like having the Vampire win the round at the end of the timer is poor because with the Vampire's mobility, coupled with this boss-mode vampire's skills, it would become a very dull game of keep away. It should be a draw I think.

Hmm. Not sure it would be a game of "keep away". I also think it doesn't even matter that much who wins or loses, because XP is based on the amount of activity you have as a specific class. If we say, hypothetically, that everyone receives 1XP for every 1 damage dealt, that would mean the Vampire wouldn't want to stay away, and the humans would want to damage the vampire. Couldn't that work?

In my suggestion, the Vampire's and Humans' abilities would deal the same amount of damage as usual, so I feel there shouldn't be much of a problem there. The downside with this system is that the Human Classes would generally get a lot more of a boost than the Vampire classes...

Vampmaster
14th Mar 2014, 23:07
Perhaps the Lieutenants could break the melee only rule. Since they're going up against a whole team, they'd need advantages like that. I don't know what would be too powerful, but thats for the devs to sort out.

Razaiim
14th Mar 2014, 23:09
If you wanted to market as more reward for activity than reward for winning, and make that distinction clear, then you wouldn't even need a win condition. Players might play it as a means of gold/xp farm, if they are rewarded gold and xp for damage done at a greater rate than current TDM, and not having a victory condition means it wouldn't affect players win/loss which many people are rather obsessive over.

DraegonSpawn
30th Mar 2014, 07:05
Some might call this a necro post, but I am very interested in the concept, and would like the topic to continue. A few ideas to throw into the pile. Some of these ideas were grabbed from other comments. Just making a condensed list of what I think would work. Then let the devs pick what they like. If they even know this thread exists.

Vampire features:
3000-5000 HP. Based on testing.
Choose 1 base class. You are a lord of the Vampire Clan. (for simplicities sake)
6 abilities total. 2 different skills of each type (Signiture, Primary, and Secondary) Triggering while holding shift for alternate skill.
Vampire Abilities 10% less damage, but recharge 10% faster. This is to help lower the amount of instakill burst a vampire with 6 abilities may have.
Choose 2-3 different perks. Must all be different. This might be TOO op.
Timer is 3 minutes. Game does NOT end when vampire lord dies.
If the vampire makes it all 3 minutes without dying once, awarded 4 points. Nice but kills nets WAY more.
Killing a player nets the vampire 2 points.
Executing a player is worth 0-3 points, based on how much of your total health it healed. (Rewarded due to difficulty when outnumbered)
Potential of 12 points for wiping all humans and 2 good executes. Large reward for high risk play.

Human Features:
If ANY human damages the Lord. It's location is indicated to the other humans for .25 seconds. Similar to corpses for vamps.
ALL human stunning abilities are changed to slows. And all Blinds last 1/3 as long. Because stun lock for 6 seconds is UN-fun.
Killing the vampire awards the killer 5 points.
Assists for the kill award points similar to kill assists in TDM. (in TDM each percent of the damage you did is 1 xp)
0-15% 1 point.
16-40% 2 points.
41-60% 3 points.
61-99% 4 points.
This awards getting the last hit, but most players should be able to get 1-2 points on the assist.
Healing does not grant points.
If the humans take out the vampire lord, anywhere from 5-11 points can be distributed among them. On par with a vampire wipe.

General rules:
5 players (1 vampire, 4 Humans)
Gameplay rotates through players. Until 5 rounds or each player gets to be the vampire, whichever comes first.
Game keeps a running total of each players individual score. The player with the highest score at the end wins.
1st place gets a base 75 gold. (65 in case of ties)
2nd gets a base of 60 gold. (55 in case of ties)
Everyone else gets a base of 50 gold.
XP should be faster while the vampire, example award 20 exp for 900 damage dealt (instead of 1000), 150-175 XP for a kill.
Human kill exp is 500 base, with the percentile sharing of TDM
Human Healing gives XP for every 400 healed instead of 500. This helps encourage the heal, in fights that will likely not leave survivors.

That is all I have for now.
As it is, being a Raziliem vampire is probably the worst idea, seeing as it doesn't have any defensive perks that can actually save its life.

Khalith
30th Mar 2014, 15:10
I like the idea! Sounds like it would be fun, I have to agree with earlier sentiment in the thread though, it would be a perfect opportunity to play as one of the Lieutenants.

agile2015
8th Apr 2014, 12:26
Glad that thread has beed made, was thinking same mode myself :). But 1st, I have need to point out few things.
As I see things, ability system cannot be changed at all. It is connected to they gamepad too, except keyboard, so amount of abilities can be 1st,2nd and RMB, right?
Second thing. there are no animations for, let's say tyrant throwing a grenade, so choosing abilities from other classes are problematic too.
However, I really believe mode should be implemented. Even without any additional changes it would be great to hunt a lone reaver, let's say. Although the 'victim' will have all abilities available, it will be great dilemma for it to make some dmg or run from harm. Basically developers have great opportunity to add a more stealth mode, without any additional work except some lobby\server\scoring changes. Looking forward to descuss the mode further. Let's make this!

ZeroFernir
8th Apr 2014, 13:32
I liked the idea... Would love to see a Lieutenant as boss =D

Tikuto
10th Jul 2014, 15:01
Same idea but;

Vampires versus Raziel (7v1) - Will require a Soul Reaver game to play. time set in Soul Reaver era
Humans versus Kain (7v1) - Will require LOK game with Kain as playable. time ideally set in Defiance era.


the gameplay of Raziel (one player)
Raziel the Wraith does not die. He is defeated to the Spectral Realm:

Spectral Realm grants unique movement capabilities around map (e.g. walk through metal bars).
he can willingly bring himself back to Material Realm anywhere (full health).
he can perch on designated 'portals' to Material Realm (any health).
he sees Human souls in Spectral Realm, both old-looking and new-looking [grants small Wraith blade power and Health].
he sees 'vermin' in Spectral Realm [fight for a big chunk of Health]

Soul Sucking vampire souls will increase their respawn timer [%] and Raziel's health [+].

souls appear only to Raziel at their death and in Spectral Realm
souls glimmer to Vampires as Raziel consumes each one.
symbiotic Wraith blade shares the Soul Sucking energy & vice versa (key X and C).

Wraith blade has multiple elemental powers to select which determine the unique ability.

blade has a capacity meter granting use of a unique ability at 100%.
blade's elemental power could be chosen before match (one only).

the Vampires gameplay (maximum seven players)
All Vampire default skins must be Evolved/Devolved because of the time era of Raziel's rebirth.

this future of evolved/devolved Vampires will be physically stronger.
this future of evolved/devolved Vampires may have their own unique ability.

Each map of this gamemode will reflect the Clan's home (Soul Reaver as Raziel explores his brother's clan homes)


the gameplay of Kain (one player)
Reaver blade unique ability at 100% capacity has it's own Will and Kain will fight so crazily;
you'll flee in fear D:

Seperate sucking buttons:
Kain Blood Suck [X]
Reaver blade Soul Suck [C]

Kain has a short respawn timer. Upon defeat he transform into bat flight to a new respawn location with some health missing.

the Humans gameplay (maximum seven players)
awesome as before. maybe more awesome?

RainaAudron
10th Jul 2014, 15:16
Raziel canĀ“t be seen in Nosgoth as he is burning in the Abyss during war for Nosgoth.

Vampmaster
10th Jul 2014, 15:27
I think the suggestion might have been for Nosgoth to span several eras. I once asked about a sequel and was told any sequel would just be rolled into part of the current game. It makes sense really as it's less likely to be misconstrued as taking resources from a future LOK game.

Tikuto
10th Jul 2014, 15:47
I think the suggestion might have been for Nosgoth to span several eras. I once asked about a sequel and was told any sequel would just be rolled into part of the current game. It makes sense really as it's less likely to be misconstrued as taking resources from a future LOK game.This :thumb:

RainaAudron
10th Jul 2014, 15:49
It does not make any logical sense for wraith Raziel to take part in this war since he is not around and the war ends before he returns.

Vampmaster
10th Jul 2014, 15:58
It does not make any logical sense for wraith Raziel to take part in this war since he is not around and the war ends before he returns.

Wraith Raz, yeah (I skimmed a bit too fast). That could clash with the stuff in SR1 even if it was a separate war later on. Also, it's too soon in Nosgoths development to be thinking about other eras. There's also the issue of voice actors for any major characters that get included.

GoldenXan
11th Jul 2014, 10:45
I'm a bit disappointed here. People don't seem to able to convey whether something is reasonable/fitting/adequate for themselves, they need someone or something to indicate them what to think.

Tikuto, you've recently made a comment saying something along the lines "If they want to have the story destroyed, I won't be a part of it." And then you followed coming here and making a suggestion where Raziel presents himself in the game. I'm not even saying your suggestion is bad, I think it has potential and I appreciate the time that people put into making these suggestions and creating a model for it, but you have to realize the inconsistency of your comment.

This Hunt mode has been suggested before in different instances, with little variation to this, especially in the early stages of the Beta (possibly even a little before that), and while I enjoy reading someone else's take on it and I think it is a valid thing to suggest, regardless of the subject have been touched on in the past, there is one thing that I was seeing back then that I'm not seeing now.

Back when suggestions just like this one popped up frequently, there were some arguments that consistently made their appearance, which where 'too different to make', ' no longer asymmetrical', 'they'd have to change the whole game', 'there would be a need to add new classes, which they won't', and I'm sure someone would find a way to shovel a 'lore-breaking suggestion' point somehow, and whatnot. I don't see a single argument like that now. I'm not even complaining about this, because I like the suggestion and I don't think there is any place in saying whether or not something can come to life, but I'm disappointed because I know that if it weren't Xenonetix the one to make this suggestion, people would not have taken it so seriously.

"Make it official and it is no longer that terrible." And it definitely applies through here. It is not even that the mode is set on stone for development, but just the fact that it weren't a Registered User, a New Player, a Gamer or whatever else, but it was actually a "Nosgoth Forum Administrator", so wait, that must be important, that must be of real value.

What defines whether or not someone will approve and help improve something is influenced by two great factors: Their hype about it, and who made the suggestion. I don't feel like making any suggestions in here anymore, as simplistic as they might be, just because I'd be arguing with the wrong audience. Instead of making suggestions to be discussed and made better so that one day everyone can have a better game in their hands, I'd only be wasting my time discussing whether or not the people have giggles when they imagine a feature on their mind.

Tikuto
12th Jul 2014, 19:39
Tikuto, you've recently made a comment saying something along the lines "If they want to have the story destroyed, I won't be a part of it." And then you followed coming here and making a suggestion where Raziel presents himself in the game. I'm not even saying your suggestion is bad, I think it has potential and I appreciate the time that people put into making these suggestions and creating a model for it, but you have to realize the inconsistency of your comment.
Whoooa hold your high horse and condescending attitude.

There's no inconsistency. The suggested gamemodes to be set IN THE FUTURE of LoK; of Nosgoth including alterations including default skins being devolved/evolved.

vampirelucky
12th Jul 2014, 20:46
If Bola is disabled so the new Hex for Prophet should be disabled as well.

And please make it happen - this mode will be REALLY FUN.

GoldenXan
12th Jul 2014, 21:12
There's no inconsistency. The suggested gamemodes to be set IN THE FUTURE of LoK; of Nosgoth including alterations including default skins being devolved/evolved.

Tikuto, I apologize. I came out wrong, it was not my intention to sound like that. I did not mean to target you in any way, I just used you as an example because you were the closest at hand, but I could have used any multitude of other people as an example.

However, I must say, out of everything I told you specifically (that one paragraph you quoted), the only thing that reached you was my 'condescending attitude'? Really?

Anyway, let me explain myself:
I understood that your suggestion was meant for a time 'in the future of LoK', whenever that may be, but here's the thing: You liked the Hunt mode suggestion, and you wanted there to be a way to play with Raziel in a similar instance. You knew that this went somewhat against the current story, so what you looked for was a way to circumvent this issue that prevented you from achieving that goal, you invented a condition that allowed you to fulfill your desire, and bring something new and fun to the game.

Which is absolutely fine, in and out of itself.

But you've only done this because you really liked the idea. It was alright for you to think of something away from the current flow in order to get what you want. When it came to something you didn't want, however, your first thought was "if someone wants to change the story, I will not be a part of it."

So, when it comes to something you like, it's O.K. to change a thing or two, be creative, invent something, find a reason. But if it's something you don't like, then suddenly there isn't any viable option to achieve it... And that is a way of thinking that many people like to have, and that was my point, which seems to be true.

Too lazy to read version: I appreciate the time and effort you placed on designing a model to help bring something you'd enjoy to play into the game, I really do. That is absolutely fine. What is not fine, is that because you don't like something, that something is not worth the discussion, which is an attitude that a lot of people have, and instead of just not helping it improve (so that everyone else can have a good time), they also want to bash it into submission.