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XJadeDragoonX
10th Mar 2014, 01:19
Typically flying as the sentinel is a breeze. but when it comes to flying anywhere near the ground, its like there a dead zone. you cant really glide over the ground and when you use abduct or kidnap and choose to go that low, there are alot of factors that can stop your flight dead in its tracks. if you hit stairs, you stop flying. If you go towards an enemy at a diagonal angle, it stops your flight(or delays your pick up animation). If you slightly glide into a wall, it cancels your ability. half the time you want to get a kidnap off, you either have to get the person at a good angle above the floor, or fly literally straight into the ground and then your character can hover wherever he wants(which is really fun actually). It seems to be all messed up.

I propose making it so only the player can choose when they stop flying. if i want to keep flying while im basically tea bagging the floor, i shouldnt be grounded without my own consent. Unless im hit with a bola, the war bow, or the throwing knives, nothing should force a sentinel to land without his own consent.

I watched the developer video and Corey said he wants you to feel like the reason you die is because you messed up as a player. but a flawed flight mechanic that doesnt let me fly over some stairs isnt me messing up. And obviously iv learned to work around those flawed mechanics, but it stills happens at inconvenient and random times. Sometimes i dont even know what made me land during my kidnap. By making it so the player has to press space bar(or use dive bomb) in order to land would greatly help gameplay.

I know some of you may feel that it may make the sentinel easier to use and more deadly. And thats certainly possible. But no other class has the dynamics that the sentinel has and dont have things that can completely hinder your gameplay in the middle of battle. If you miss a charge, thats your fault. if you miss a pounce, thats your fault. If you miss a bola or an arrow, thats your fault. But if my sentinel decides to land instead of picking up my enemy and im obliterated for it, thats not entirely my fault. Everyone knows the funny hug animation the sentinel does when you get to fly flat on the floor during kidnap. It shouldnt be a percent chance that you can do it. Its either you cant fly at the ground and it always makes you land, or it doesnt ever do it. An unpredictable and inconsistent element like that isnt fun to deal with.

What are your thoughts?


Edit: i realize i posted this in the wrong section. can someone move this to the beta feedback and suggestions section?

MasterShuriko
10th Mar 2014, 03:00
Yea I agree with you, too many times have my sentinel landed when I wanted him to catch that pesky human :/

Ygdrasel
11th Mar 2014, 07:22
It should be more consistent, true. Either you land always or not. Stairs are a giant pain but not for landing, just for being weirdly impassable. I dive for a human, they move up some stairs, Sentinel gets oddly stuck on the bottom step...Really bizarre weakness for a vampire, stairs.

That said, if you are obliterated, it is your fault. Don't just stand there and be a pincushion. Use Wing Flap to get some breathing room or Takeoff to get back into flight.

Aside from the stair thing, I fly near the ground easily enough. It's my main travel method as a Sentinel, weaving through the terrain and buildings to avoid Scout snipers.

XJadeDragoonX
11th Mar 2014, 13:22
Thats also assuming i have wingflap or takeoff. If im using echolocation and puncture, not much to do there

Korevas
11th Mar 2014, 16:57
It should be more consistent, true. Either you land always or not. Stairs are a giant pain but not for landing, just for being weirdly impassable. I dive for a human, they move up some stairs, Sentinel gets oddly stuck on the bottom step...Really bizarre weakness for a vampire, stairs.


Agreed, it's pretty wierd. It's amplified by the heavy downward momentum you apparently can't break when activating the ability.

Razaiim
11th Mar 2014, 17:15
I played sent through alpha, and I still have more play time on him in beta than any other class by several hours, but I've become pretty annoyed with him lately for much of what's stated above, so I'm taking some time to learn up my Tyrant and reaver play until things get cleaned up.

Hugbringer
11th Mar 2014, 17:50
These are concerns that are well known about. The stairs, corners are definitely an issue. Avoid flying by healing stations as well. Don't forget that damage at a certain point (its like 250ish) will drop you out of the snatch animation as well.

Be patient and think like a reaver, follow in Tyrants and reaver smoke is your best friend. Don't get crazy and go in alone even if you think you have a chance. Don't always have to fly either, can even use the sound effects as a distraction :)

hirukaru
11th Mar 2014, 18:53
Flying constantly close to the ground is impossible. Flying with these kind of wings will push you up and down. Depending on where you put your force more.
So landing is more then logic unless you fly up. (Maybe an glide animation at X height with a gliding timer) so you can tea bag the ground while flying but still notice that you will crash in x seconds.

Also if you fly really near to the ground the wings will probably hit the ground and thus reduce drag and by that also reduce height.

Derakus
11th Mar 2014, 20:26
Also if you fly really near to the ground the wings will probably hit the ground and thus reduce drag and by that also reduce height.
Thats why you have hands and legs to kick-off in this case in addition to your wings flaping.

hirukaru
11th Mar 2014, 20:30
Thats why you have hands and legs to kick-off in this case in addition to your wings flaping.
Action keys.
When sentinel is close to ground for x second show action key for 50ms when not pressed let sentinel crash. :P

Ygdrasel
11th Mar 2014, 21:21
Thats also assuming i have wingflap or takeoff. If im using echolocation and puncture, not much to do there

If you don't have Wing Flap or Takeoff then it's entirely your fault when you get pincushioned to death. If you prefer to survive instead, you'll need survival-oriented abilities.


Be patient and think like a reaver, follow in Tyrants and reaver smoke is your best friend. Don't get crazy and go in alone even if you think you have a chance. Don't always have to fly either, can even use the sound effects as a distraction :)

Half the time, I swoop in with a Kidnap just to freak out and disorient the enemy. Tyrant charged right through 'em while they tried to get a bead on me once. I've generally learned how to survive going in alone, using the terrain as cover and constantly changing the route and angle I take to get at them. And that moment when you drop a human right in the path of a Tyrant charge or a Reaver pounce...Mmm.

DraegonSpawn
12th Mar 2014, 03:17
I think a sentinel should not land DURING kidnap, or snatch. This gives the sentinel a window of important control. If you are diving that close on other occasions, it could be argued whether landing or not was intended so let skill count for more. But during those two abilities it is rather silly to simply land. When your obvious intent was to grab someone.

I also feel that the way to fix the sentinels all around destructive power is. Make it impossible to grab a human that is in mid roll. That way you need it to be a surprise attack. Or catch a human in the direction of the tumble. Cause currently Humans have to real defense against a sentinel other than shoot it. But this is for a different thread I think.

Ygdrasel
12th Mar 2014, 07:39
Cause currently Humans have to real defense against a sentinel other than shoot it.

Um...Yeah. The primary way to protect yourself against a hostile entity is to attack it. That's...Not really exclusive to the Sentinel in any way whatsoever. :scratch:

Being magically unable to catch a human in mid-roll is as illogical and silly (from a Sentinel's viewpoint) as a Sentinel landing amidst a horde of trigger-happy enemies after a failed Kidnap so you're kind of arguing on both sides of the fence there...

Plus a Sentinel's power is not any kind of error or malfunction so it doesn't need to be 'fixed'.

As for some other ways to defend against a Sentinel besides 'shoot it':

1) Poison
2) Well-timed fire (wall or thrown form)
3) Use the terrain as cover (duck into a building, zig-zag, turn a lot of corners...)
4) Blind it (via a number of abilities and hope it veers off-course.
5) Dodge (can be done in conjunction with blinding)
5) (untested, maybe impossible) Bola and/or knife-stun it out of Kidnap mode.
6) A well-timed Volley.


If the only tactic you can think of is "shoot at it"...Well...

Hugbringer
12th Mar 2014, 17:53
Half the time, I swoop in with a Kidnap just to freak out and disorient the enemy. Tyrant charged right through 'em while they tried to get a bead on me once. I've generally learned how to survive going in alone, using the terrain as cover and constantly changing the route and angle I take to get at them. And that moment when you drop a human right in the path of a Tyrant charge or a Reaver pounce...Mmm.

Sounds like you are well on your way to being a truly annoying Sentinel to your enemies. Any successful tactic is a good tactic :-) ...except cheating of course.

DraegonSpawn
12th Mar 2014, 22:41
I am arguing for both sides, I feel that there are some things that are unbalanced. Using any non-stunning ability on a sentinel mid dive, does nothing for you. He take 100-200 damage, steals you, drops you for 600 ish, then dive bombs, and attacks for a kill. Humans need a reliable way to protect themselves from the dive. Hence protection while tumbling. And the no auto-land is just quality of life for sentinel players.

Many of your options do just about nothing to it. Or are very hard to achieve. Most of them are just damage ideas, which I considered part of the "just shoot it."
The hit-box is large enough terrain rarely helps.
All human blinding abilities are contact aoe skill, with a hard arch. Meaning they are HIGHY ineffective against a flying target.
The distance covered by a dodge is barely larger than the hit-box for the grab
And it is rather easy to steal someone from inside a building.
FYI bola's and knives will interrupt kidnap/snatch, but knifes do not knock it out of the air.
Volley does not hinder their flight at all. Why would that be mentioned in particular as it's own point?

Ygdrasel
13th Mar 2014, 03:31
x
Humans need a reliable way to protect themselves from the dive.

Like damaging the Sentinel enough to knock it out of the air...Or taking cover...Or just getting out of the way...

But it's not like any of those are possible in the game...Oh wait...

If you need protection from a dive, protect yourself from it. Shoot them down (and this is the entire basis of gameplay so get over your weird issues with shooting the enemy) or otherwise interrupt the dive (stun, volley, poison...If you can get them diving through a sufficiently damaging AoE, that can be enough) , take cover, get out of the way. These are all quite reliable depending on a player's skill. A stun or AoE might take better aim or timing than some have but literally anybody can just get inside or run out of the dive path.

As for "terrain rarely helps"...A Sentinel dives at you. You turn a corner (or two). A Sentinel fails to correct its course to give chase. A Sentinel lands. You have just protected yourself from the dive. And as for "knives don't knock it out of the air"...So? The goal is to interrupt its attack and give you time to take action which a knife does. And "any non-stunning ability does nothing for you"...That is entirely dependent on the Sentinel's remaining health and the damage of the particular ability. Funny how various factors affect gameplay in different ways at any given time, right?

And yes, it can be easy to snatch from inside a building...Depending on Sentinel skill and the humans involved. It's not just "It's easy", full stop. Again, there are factors that come into play. If some guy stands out in the more open areas of a building (like by the doorway) like a dummy, he may be snatched. His failure is no reason to nerf Sentinels.

Sentinels aren't some unstoppable force of power or anything. There is no grand balance issue or, at least, you have not demonstrated one. If you suck at avoiding Kidnaps, that's not a balance issue. That's a "You need to improve" issue. The fact remains that there are numerous ways to protect from a Kidnap. That many (but not all) of them involve dealing damage is just something you're going to have to get over because this is a game all about dealing damage.

TL;DR: If you want a nerf to Kidnap, you reasonably enough need to demonstrate a need for said nerf. "There's no way to protect against it", which is your current claim, is plainly untrue.

XJadeDragoonX
13th Mar 2014, 14:25
Like i was saying, its not a truly disabling problem. Just inconsistent. I do great as a sentinel. But id do better without random landings. I think all of the interruption is pretty fair tho. Bolas, knives, whatever. If you get shot out the air thats fair game.

cmstache
13th Mar 2014, 17:32
For the record, knives not only cancel kidnaps and abducts, but also cause them to land. They effectively cancel the skill, deal damage, and leave them vulnerable. You DO have to hit them after the skill is activated though (go figure), which is hard vs a skilled sent player as they won't give you much reaction time after that moment. If you need further proof I can provide video feeds of it happening.

DraegonSpawn
13th Mar 2014, 18:21
I am not saying to nerf the sentinel. Just give humans a reliable defense. I know their are many ways to stop a sentinel and use them often. Never said I didn't. I am saying that it is currently too easy to land the grab, instead of making it harder for the sentinel player, let humans who are rolling say 70-110 degrees of the sentinel flight path be un-grabbable. A skilled sentinel will still follow and grab you easily enough, seeing as they can turn very well while flying.
To counter this "nerf" sentinals don't land if they touch the ground during a dive. This gives the sentinels players much more reliablility which they often ask for. This also lets the sentinel follow the said tumble defense without screwing up their dive much.

I understand if you don't agree, but please state how my points are wrong, other than saying "be a better player."

PencileyePirate
15th Mar 2014, 06:23
I am not saying to nerf the sentinel. Just give humans a reliable defense. I know their are many ways to stop a sentinel and use them often. Never said I didn't. I am saying that it is currently too easy to land the grab, instead of making it harder for the sentinel player, let humans who are rolling say 70-110 degrees of the sentinel flight path be un-grabbable.


It's not too easy to land the grab, because humans already have plenty of reliable defenses. I completely disagree with this suggestion because it does nerf the Sentinel, and think it would hurt gameplay for no real reason.


A skilled sentinel will still follow and grab you easily enough, seeing as they can turn very well while flying. To counter this "nerf" sentinals don't land if they touch the ground during a dive. This gives the sentinels players much more reliablility which they often ask for. This also lets the sentinel follow the said tumble defense without screwing up their dive much.

Are you saying Sentinels should land more easily during dives? Please no! Sentinels land accidentally far too often already. This would not give the any more reliability, but rather, create a sense of decreased reliability. I also don't understand how this would help following your proposed defense, so perhaps you need to elaborate.

Ygdrasel
17th Mar 2014, 08:27
Just give humans a reliable defense.

There are already numerous defensive and evasive options available. If Sentinels are grabbing you too often for your liking then sorry but "be a better player" is exactly what's needed.