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View Full Version : MISC. General impression: humans need some love



Vucar_Dumat
8th Mar 2014, 23:21
I've seen a couple of these already posted but i thought i might throw my hat in as well as having only been playing 5-6 hours. Overall, for a closed beta, the game is really polished and i'm surprised how rare i've run into anything unpolished / broken mechanics.

I tried playing every class before i passed judgment and so far i'm only missing the sentinel and the balance in this game is very impressive, especially considering the extreme difference in combat styles between two sides. Games like PS2 are significantly easier to balance because you have virtually the same dynamics and its just a matter of moving the scale of fire rate / damage / splash up or down. However, it's become obvious to me at the higher level of play that vampires are distinctly advantaged right now.

My sentiment is that once the humans and vampires have ended the initial "foreplay" portion of a match, and gotten to the "***** hitting the fan" portion, theres little humans can do to recover after a real fight has begun; tanks run in and cause significant crowd control / area stuns / high melee pressure that cannot be returned, stopped, or evaded once its begun. This is hugely problematic for balance because the tank still has the ability to pop "iron skin", climb the nearest wall and go from near death to safe in ~6 seconds. Humans have no quick escape or ability to cope with a losing battle while vampires are at a great advantage in evasion options.

I dont think vampires need to be nerfed yet. I hate when nerfs have to be introduced and i think buffs are preferable in most cases. Humans need a buff that will compensate for their inability to deal with a full-on melee-range 4v4, which means one of two things:

-A direct compensation to melee encounters: something like a melee stun / hinder that will give them a chance to actually run. The scouts "knives" are supposed to slow, but they have no effect on tanks that i can tell. Maybe give crossbows / bows a passive "slowing" effect when shot in succession at the front of a vampire. The alchemist has a blinding ability but its pure trash right now -- extend the duration and increase the cooldown, make it more of a "last resort, get out of dodge" move. The scout also has an invisiblity ability but i've seen it used when i was a vampire and its really no trouble at all to follow an "invisible" person, and i've tried using it myself and had the same result -- the invis kind of sucks right now too.

or

-An indirect compensation to melee encounters: something that makes them better in other areas to compensate for the fact that humans will forever be screwed in a full melee assault. This is a lot more broad and could be things like a passive health regen, maybe 1 health / second up to half health or something. On that note, unless you've memorized the maps, its very hard to find the health ammo stations and i find that they're highly under-utilized from what i see my teams do.

Just a few thoughts for now. I'll come back to this thread when i remember more of what i was thinking

Khalith
9th Mar 2014, 00:58
I do agree that it's too easy for the vamps to get away, but against a good human team with some aoe and high damage they will still take them down. I actually think that in the hands of good players the humans are the more dangerous team and could stand to be nerfed in a few ways.

Hunter long distance damage is still too good, a good scout that knows how to aim can weaken the vampires significantly before they can even get close and use their turret to trade their life for 1-2 more kills, and the alchemist can still maul groups of vampires that get close. To sum it up, their aoe is still too high, the single target is too high also.

Not that the vampires are very balanced either. The amount of stuns both sides (humans and vamps) have and their ability to chain them back to back is getting really out of hand, reaver poison is still good when stacked, sentinel (in my opinion) lacks survivability against good scouts/hunters but can totally shut down a team that can't aim well, and tyrant is a little too easy to lockdown but when not locked down has way too many stuns/cc abilities.

I would rather nerf the stuns and damage across the board and increase hp as compensation tbh.

MarinePikachu
9th Mar 2014, 03:53
Disagree that vamps are stronger than humans at a higher level of play. I believe that humans are stronger at high level of play and vamps are easier for new people. Unfortunately I have very few high level games in beta. All the high level games occurred in alpha where both teams were much more experienced and balanced.

With that said, buffing humans is not going to be good for the high level players as playing vamps will get really annoying with certain team builds. Giving passive slow to crossbow is a very bad idea, pretty much a free kill and hunters don't need to be stronger. You are right about scout cloak though; it does suck.

If anything needs to be done, I think it is tyrant nerf of the their aoe. ATM its not a problem because most teams go reaver. However I am predicting in the future people are going to realize how painful a group of tyrants can be. Their aoe range is pretty ridiculous, have so many stuns, damage of the skill are high burst damage. I know a few tyrants that if they get on the same team it is not pretty for the other team. Imagine one tyrant jumping in and another tyrant following right behind that one 2 seconds later. you get 2 jumps which do a ton of damage, the stuns, and the next stun (the ground slam).

Fortunately most tyrants are not that good atm and most people play reaver. Getting back on topic, no vamps are not better than humans at high level of play (which high level play is pretty nonexistent in beta) .

ZProtoss
9th Mar 2014, 13:40
One thing Natural Selection 2 demonstrated was that it's essentially impossible to balance a Melee vs Ranged shooter for both low and high end gameplay. The basic issue is that the ranged side ends up having far more significant fluctuations in ability than the melee side does. While the melee side is generally much more binary in its damage output (ie: once a player is in regardless of skill level, they'll generally hit most of their melee attacks), the ranged side goes from sub 10% accuracy people who can barely hit anything, to 80%+ people who crush anything that enters their FOV. If you balance the ranged side based on 10% accuracy, the people with 80%+ accuracy will usually win. If you balance the ranged side based on the people with 80%+ accuracy, the people who fall below that standard will usually lose.

Nosgoth in its current state is mostly balanced around the middle tier of gameplay. Games with low skill players tend to see the vampires win easily. Games with people in the middle of the road tend to be back and forth. Games with high skill players see humans crushing with ease. Given that it's probably impossible to ever get real balance across all skill levels, I'm not really convinced that balance is in a bad place at the moment. Because any major buff to either side in the current game would just add imbalance to the mid tier while failing to fix balance on either the low or high end.

Angelos_Sanguinum
10th Mar 2014, 23:56
Vampire team as 3-4 Reavers is just obvious easy mode. Not only they can ambush 1-2 people from the roofs, but covering full city square with Shadow Smoke Bombs and tearing whole human team apart in dozens of seconds. This imbalanced tactics can counter any tactic and skill, because every time humans try to group up - they are receiving Smoke bomb with like 5m radius and while seeing nothing Reavers can cut them down because they see them as blue framed silhouettes. This ability is completely denying vision to humans, leaving their chances to survive at minimum.
Also Reavers can easily kill any class in close range faster than other classes manage to kill it without abilities only by dps of their weapon and even with faster sprint(+20%) you cant dodge Reavers(melee attacks are hitting very fast with +5% attack speed perk) and if you are breaking distance - auto-targeting Pounce. Its just easy mode, easy hunting sitting on a roof and waiting for opening.

Korevas
11th Mar 2014, 00:13
One thing Natural Selection 2 demonstrated was that it's essentially impossible to balance a Melee vs Ranged shooter for both low and high end gameplay. The basic issue is that the ranged side ends up having far more significant fluctuations in ability than the melee side does. While the melee side is generally much more binary in its damage output (ie: once a player is in regardless of skill level, they'll generally hit most of their melee attacks), the ranged side goes from sub 10% accuracy people who can barely hit anything, to 80%+ people who crush anything that enters their FOV. If you balance the ranged side based on 10% accuracy, the people with 80%+ accuracy will usually win. If you balance the ranged side based on the people with 80%+ accuracy, the people who fall below that standard will usually lose.

Nosgoth in its current state is mostly balanced around the middle tier of gameplay. Games with low skill players tend to see the vampires win easily. Games with people in the middle of the road tend to be back and forth. Games with high skill players see humans crushing with ease. Given that it's probably impossible to ever get real balance across all skill levels, I'm not really convinced that balance is in a bad place at the moment. Because any major buff to either side in the current game would just add imbalance to the mid tier while failing to fix balance on either the low or high end.

Sorry, I had to quote the whole thing because I agree with absolutely everything in this post. +1

cmstache
11th Mar 2014, 00:52
Those tactics won't work on a team of skilled players. 4 reavers can be beat, although, it does get kind of boring.

CoOkiedude
11th Mar 2014, 08:26
Those tactics won't work on a team of skilled players. 4 reavers can be beat, although, it does get kind of boring.


Wanted to chime in on that.It's like 4 Hunters all over again. If people don't stay mobile and protect each other vs 4 Reavers,it's a skill issue. Not a balance one. Same with 4 Hunters. If people don't coordinate and run Haze and Charge Tyrants with IP you won't win . It's still a skill issue,however. Learning how to play has varying levels of difficulty depending on the situation and the team composition you are facing. Adapting and understanding what deals with each threat adequately is what separates the OHMYGODNERFPOISON people from the ones that switch to a Hunter /Alchemist and break your face.

Hugbringer
11th Mar 2014, 22:38
Wanted to chime in on that.It's like 4 Hunters all over again. If people don't stay mobile and protect each other vs 4 Reavers,it's a skill issue. Not a balance one. Same with 4 Hunters. If people don't coordinate and run Haze and Charge Tyrants with IP you won't win . It's still a skill issue,however. Learning how to play has varying levels of difficulty depending on the situation and the team composition you are facing. Adapting and understanding what deals with each threat adequately is what separates the OHMYGODNERFPOISON people from the ones that switch to a Hunter /Alchemist and break your face.

Just wanted to agree with this assessment as any combination of 4 in a respective class tends to be annoying, but does tend to have a way of countering. One of the reasons I think that reavers are so popular due to the excess of hunters and scouts camping their corners. High level play will definitely be an issue, as it always is, though in a certain sense it'll regulate itself no matter what by way of the chosen meta will always drift between what is 'best' vs. what is 'worst' regardless of how balanced it eventually becomes.

The fact that some people view the mid-level as the place where Nosgoth is currently balanced is certainly an achievement to me. Provides an incentive and challenge to grow among new players, as well as keeping moderate players interested in higher level play possibilities while the higher level players still have a smidge of room to argue amongst each other :)