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Jason Miller
10th Jan 2010, 15:56
I've been thinking about this for a long time and I've decided that Lara does NOT need her dual pistols anymore. They're beginning to get old and no one has been able to put dual pistols in a game without them ruining the smoothness of the animations, it just makes the character's waist to the top seem so stiff while the rest of the body is moving. Instead, Lara should just go old-fashioned. What would you guys suggest?

tombraidergal
10th Jan 2010, 15:58
Well... I dunno. I quite like her pistols, maybe, in gameplay you have miniSMG's, rifle, grenade launcher etc and the dual pistols are unlockable content? But I think lara without the pistols would be disastrous but it does mess up her outfit slightly. Lol

Jason Miller
10th Jan 2010, 16:22
Well... I dunno. I quite like her pistols, maybe, in gameplay you have miniSMG's, rifle, grenade launcher etc and the dual pistols are unlockable content? But I think lara without the pistols would be disastrous but it does mess up her outfit slightly. Lol

Since this is an origins story (supposedly), I think Lara should go for more simple/primitive weapons such as: branches, daggers,spears, and a revolver as the only projectile weapon in a game.

chriss_99
10th Jan 2010, 17:14
I, personally, don't like the whole idea of melee combat, it doesn't feel like Tomb Raider to me. Now I do understand that Lara needs to be re-invented (to some extent) but this is to far for me.
Lara's dual pistols are something more than just weapon, they define her in some way. I remember that Core took away Lara's dual pistols in Angel of Darkness and I don't really think that was a good idea.
It's hard to judge if it works out, since I don't know how will it look in the actual game. I am really trying not be pessimistic about the whole re-invention idea.

tombraidergal
10th Jan 2010, 17:16
Ooh yeah I agree with Jason miller Some people disagree though lol, she wouldn't think she needed a pistol would she! So shed have to use the enviroment, maybe find an abandoned camp/tribe camp place with spears and bows and then she finds out exactly why they fled... (grudge creatures) lol

angelus0901
10th Jan 2010, 17:36
I have an idea, they should give her rocks to throw at enemies... A big monster is coming at you and one throw to the head and bang, it's dead... just kidding... ;)
No, I want her guns... It wouldn't be the same without them... But, Jason and trgal have good ideas... :D

Rexie
10th Jan 2010, 18:56
I've been thinking about this for a long time and I've decided that Lara does NOT need her dual pistols anymore. They're beginning to get old and no one has been able to put dual pistols in a game without them ruining the smoothness of the animations, it just makes the character's waist to the top seem so stiff while the rest of the body is moving. Instead, Lara should just go old-fashioned. What would you guys suggest?

It's time for PFP.

Her guns are her trademark.

Jason Miller
10th Jan 2010, 19:21
It's time for PFP.

Her guns are her trademark.

Well, unless they're going to somehow improve the crappy combat animations (which by the way, won't happen) , I have no problem with it.:)

redragon7324
11th Jan 2010, 03:55
I think taking her dual pistols will get her to lose pretty much all support, because thats what shes pretty much known for. Just like indy has his hat, or Mario and his hat

Ants_27_
11th Jan 2010, 07:07
They could at least get rid of unlimited ammo... what game gives you unlimited ammo for the entire game anymore?

Running around levels in games with no ammo and not having a clue what enemies may appear is oddly fun.

Jason Miller
11th Jan 2010, 14:01
I wish they'd come up with more innovative combat with a variety of weapons (melee and projectile)!For example, to to use a combat knife, you move the analog stick to move Lara's arm around while holding L2 to slash, if you want to stab, you flick the analog stick towards the direction you want to do so! Just an idea.:D

Max 28
12th Jan 2010, 08:46
I said this a bit ago and it's the exact same stance I have here really:


The Dual Pistols to me are quite iconic for Lara and I really disliked their absence in AoD. I'm really interested in a revamp for Lara but it's the small characteristics being kept that will make the transition successful.

But if this Origins game follows Lara before she is experienced in raiding, she won't be prepared and have proper equipment with her. So a lack of holsters will be appropriate, and won't be a plot hole we'll complain about :)

Jason Miller
12th Jan 2010, 13:22
Aren't we forgetting what this thread is really about?? (read the title!)

Danielsun_
21st Jan 2010, 23:57
i like it how you people are saying that this IS an origins story, yes a concept art has been leaked of a woman on horse back and eidos/square enix and CD are quiet about it, there has been no official announcement what so ever, and what even makes you think thats lara in these concept arts?

they do do concept arts for other characters

sorry for my rant but ive seen it all too many times, there is too much speculation going on based on very little

_Love2Raid_
22nd Jan 2010, 00:03
Dual pistols: DO WANT.
Lots of weapons: DO WANT TOO.

Error96_
22nd Jan 2010, 04:05
Whilst I like a wide range of weaponary the duel pistols would have to be amongst it. Wouldn't feel right without them.

9er_Fan
28th Mar 2010, 17:07
I am beyond ready for the dual pistols to be gone and have argued for this before.

Dual pistols = John Woo. What has John Woo done lately? Nothing interesting from an action perspective. A fad that came and went. Good riddance. For a public that has watched the real deal for many years now (Iraq, Afghanistan), this fantasy aspect is long lost its allure.

It's the same tired trademarked "Angelina Jolie" shot. Arms outstretched with a pistol in each hand and pointed in opposite directions, she looking in a third direction and her back arched to show her ample bosom. Saw the same shot in both TR movies, Wanted, and Mr. and Mrs. Smith. LOL, I just realized there is an Angelina Jolie genre just like there is a Arnold Schwartzneggar genre and Tom Cruise genre. Angelina Jolie looking sexy shooting out of a car. Angelina Jolie looking sexy shooting out of a minivan. Angelina Jolie looking sexy shooting up a department store. Angelina Jolie looking sexy shooting in a tomb. At least Mr. Pitt sorta looked like he knew what he was doing.

A beautiful and fierce woman who actually knows how to handle firearms--that's sexy and it lends the character credibility. Credibility is all that matters and it's a function of gravitas from the protagonist and a good story. Anyone remember how badly Daniel Craig was getting slammed in the press prior to the release of Casino Royale? It was brutal. Casino Royale comes out, he looks more-than-credible in the role, and the movie has a good story (broke the 007 mold). Dissent all-but-ceased. Well done. That sort of credibility is what Lara Croft needs. Dual pistols and dual Uzis don't foster credibility.

Now, there are a few options on how to handle weapons in-game and it boils down to trademarks. The names and likenesses are intellectual property owned by the firearms manufacturers.


Invent weapons that have no real-life counterparts (AOD did this)
Get in-bed with a single firearms manufacturer (the most famous example is Tom Clancy games and Heckler and Koch)
Use weapons whose likeness are in the public domain. P35, FAL, AK47, MP5 (believe it or not is old enough...just turned over I think)


In-bed with firearms manufacturer version 1: Fabrique Nationale
FN is *the* supplier of small arms to the western world and has been for a while. Only political pressure got the M4/M16 contract back to Colt Firearms.

Pistol = P35 (aka Browning Hi-Power). Makes sense as the most manufactured pistol ever and issued within the U.K. military
Shotgun = SLP (Self Loading Police).
Assault Rifle = SCAR. The modularity of this could make a cool gameplay feature with how you kit-up before a level
Submachine Gun = P90 (lord I hate this weapon...a poor solution looking for a question)
Precision Rifle = missing (approximate with SCAR?)


In-bed with firearms manufacturer version 2: Heckler & Koch
Heckler & Koch tries very hard to brand itself as catering to the elite. The go a-bit over the top in this but their weapons are usually very very good. Angelina Jolie in the TR movies uses Heckler & Koch Matches. I personally do not like H&K because of a bad customer service experience and their marketing borders on "*****" marketing...put an MP5 into the hands of an untrained slob and presto! ...they are instantly SAS. However, if you're looking to set-up weapon uprades in your combat system, there are few other manufacturers with the breadth of offerings


Pistol = lots of options here but the USP Compact, P2000, or P30
Shotgun = missing (H&K formerly distributed Benelli until a rival firm bought Benelli)
Assault Rifle = G36 or HK 417
Submachine Gun = MP5SD (of course)
Precision Rifle = MSG90 or PSG1


In-bed with firearms manufacturer version 3: Sig Sauer
Sig Sauer is considered the Mercedes Benz of firearm manufacturers. High quality and high price to-boot. Using Sig Sauer would give Tomb Raider a distinctively European flair. SIG is Swiss and gets around their weapon export laws by contracting out to German firm JP Sauer.


Pistol = P226 (pretty much replaced the P35 in modern European militaries)
Shotgun = missing
Assault Rifle = Sig556 (modular so there are lots of options)
Submachine Gun = missing
Precision Rifle = SSG3000 or the Blaser



Public Domain weapons:

Pistol = P35
Shotgun = Remington 870 (just don't call it that...your standard pump shotgun)
Assault Rifle = M4 (just don't call it that) or AK47/74. I actually think Lara using locally procured weapons like AK47/74 would be intriguing
Submachine Gun = I think UZI is now in the public domain
Precision Rifle = pick your bolt action


Oh, and all shotguns with the exception of door breechers have shoulder stocks. Period. Anything otherwise is just as bad as dual pistols.

Ants_27_
28th Mar 2010, 17:16
Well as I've said earlier I like to have loads of weapons like duel pistols but I just hope they get rid of unlimited ammo and force you to play through it watching your ammo levels (adds tension) and once you've beat the game you can unlock unlimited ammo for each weapon, alas Resident evil!:D

Danielsun_
28th Mar 2010, 17:24
NOOOOOOOOO Resi 5 isnt a true Resi game anyways


Quote shadowleggy


TR kicks Resi games hands down

lara will make a jill sandwich with all the cast and crew any day :p

Ants_27_
28th Mar 2010, 17:27
No but the format is the same like the old games. Complete it in a certain time and you always unlocked unlimited rocket launcher and what not. So you're playing it through the first time conserving ammo and maybe the second time with a more relaxed an different approach!

Its better that unlimited ammo from the get go!:rasp:

Danielsun_
28th Mar 2010, 18:22
but she has always had unlimited ammo and wouldnt it be a bit wierd if you are raiding some tombs and you stumble across some random magazines you would be like...o im not the first here anyway

it appears someone has come through with all the same weapons as me before :p

Ants_27_
28th Mar 2010, 18:33
Yes but isn't it a bit weird that she stumbles across health packs?

We set up deadly traps but shall give them health to nick our treasures:p

Danielsun_
28th Mar 2010, 18:45
thats a good point maybe they need to revisit her health pack situation so it doesn feel like some divine god is placing health packs here and there for lara :p

Ants_27_
28th Mar 2010, 18:58
They could -like MGS 3 did- use animals such as snakes which you'd kill which big boss would then store as food to use as health orto regain hs stanima... they didn't just used snakes either, you could shoot fruit from trees and use tht as health and stuff.

Or like resi does use a combination of herbs. Green herb a bit of health, green and red herbs more health and finally green, red and yellow herbs mean ultimate health!

Gemma_Darkmoon_
28th Mar 2010, 21:19
I definately would want them to skick with the unlimited ammo duel pistols and finding medi packs. I do not care that it's unrealistic. Don't like the making up of healing herbs or ditching duel pistols. I like to save up the ammo for better weapons and medi packs so stategic use is still important. These are aspects I think have always worked well in the games.

pinpal
29th Mar 2010, 01:08
No absolutely not, lara's pistols should always be in the game. As for unlimited ammo now there's something worth discussing, unlimited ammo has to go, it's simply ridiculous. I want Lara to have to find ammo and reload her weapons. Her armory should include anything she can get her hands on, Oh and did I mention Lara Croft without dual pistols is a bad idea. What do you mean the pistols make lara look stiff.
Hey everybody does lara look stiff or good ? I for one always liked the holsters around her legs.
http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/TV2/archive/00288/Lara_Croft_-_Tomb_R_288491g.jpg

AdobeArtist
29th Mar 2010, 04:24
When you look back at the history of Lara's games, she has never been limited to just her dual pistols. And that's the way it should be.

But my reasons are for more than the obvious you might think of. Not just because weapon variety is good for giving the players more gameplay options (that's a given for any game). It has more to do with Lara's characterization. Her greatest strength isn't in her marksmanship proficiency, but in that she isn't dependant on that. Lara doesn't rely on her weapons, she IS the weapon, in her strength of will, her determination, her resourcefulness to use anything in her surrounding to her advantage, and her ability to adapt to any situation.

To me, THIS is the quality that should be taken notice of by gamers. That sends a stronger message and conveys her in a more compelling light of strength and independance.

Now I DO get the whole iconic symbolic imagery of her trademark pistols. But that's the thing, it's more a visual trademark, and dare I say a superficial way to identify Lara - whereas from a context viewpoint, her being able to work with what ever she's got establishes a more virtuous character trait.

The balance that needs to be struck is, that its good for her to have them, but she is never dependant on them. Her real power doesn't come from tools, but from what's inside.

pinpal
29th Mar 2010, 22:21
When you look back at the history of Lara's games, she has never been limited to just her dual pistols. And that's the way it should be.

But my reasons are for more than the obvious you might think of. Not just because weapon variety is good for giving the players more gameplay options (that's a given for any game). It has more to do with Lara's characterization. Her greatest strength isn't in her marksmanship proficiency, but in that she isn't dependant on that. Lara doesn't rely on her weapons, she IS the weapon, in her strength of will, her determination, her resourcefulness to use anything in her surrounding to her advantage, and her ability to adapt to any situation.

To me, THIS is the quality that should be taken notice of by gamers. That sends a stronger message and conveys her in a more compelling light of strength and independance.

Now I DO get the whole iconic symbolic imagery of her trademark pistols. But that's the thing, it's more a visual trademark, and dare I say a superficial way to identify Lara - whereas from a context viewpoint, her being able to work with what ever she's got establishes a more virtuous character trait.

The balance that needs to be struck is, that its good for her to have them, but she is never dependant on them. Her real power doesn't come from tools, but from what's inside.

I like what you said and I like the way you say it:) But all of that being said Lara Croft shouldn't ever lose her dual pistols.:thumb:

Pulse
31st Mar 2010, 00:18
They should make it more Uncharted (Sorry for speaking of the Devil :() like gameplay, so only one pistol would be needed. Dual would be completely pointless

pinpal
31st Mar 2010, 03:57
They should make it more Uncharted (Sorry for speaking of the Devil :() like gameplay, so only one pistol would be needed. Dual would be completely pointless

Its Lara Croft. she's not uncharted. why do you want her to be like uncharted so much.:hmm: I don't get it. I'm getting really angry at your post right now because Lara Croft uses dual pistols so what are you talking about, are you trying to be funny. I'm sorry but your post really ticked me off. just go to an uncharted forum please if you want to talk about that mess. I'm trying to discuss a tomb raider related subject and then you bring up uncharted. You know what tomb raider is 100 times better than that crap game. I don't see uncharted with numerous world records or iconic status like the tomb raider series:whistle: Leave Uncharted out of these forums please.:cool:

Pulse
1st Apr 2010, 06:37
Its Lara Croft. she's not uncharted. why do you want her to be like uncharted so much.:hmm: I don't get it. I'm getting really angry at your post right now because Lara Croft uses dual pistols so what are you talking about, are you trying to be funny. I'm sorry but your post really ticked me off. just go to an uncharted forum please if you want to talk about that mess. I'm trying to discuss a tomb raider related subject and then you bring up uncharted. You know what tomb raider is 100 times better than that crap game. I don't see uncharted with numerous world records or iconic status like the tomb raider series:whistle: Leave Uncharted out of these forums please.:cool:

I said gameplay! the 3ps shooter style of games like Uncharted. I used that as an example, other games have gameplay like that. Uncharted wasnt a mess or a crap game, you should be open minded. Uncharted was an incredible game with great gameplay and a fantastic plot. That doesnt mean I dont think TR is amazing. Its possible to like both. How could mentioning Uncharted tick you off? That post makes you sound like an ignorant fan

Ants_27_
1st Apr 2010, 06:50
I said gameplay! the 3ps shooter style of games like Uncharted. I used that as an example, other games have gameplay like that. Uncharted wasnt a mess or a crap game, you should be open minded. Uncharted was an incredible game with great gameplay and a fantastic plot. That doesnt mean I dont think TR is amazing. Its possible to like both. How could mentioning Uncharted tick you off? That post makes you sound like an ignorant fan

I'll agree cause Uncharted isn't the only 3ps game so I don't see why people go on about uncharted:scratch:

But I find it quite funny -though I hope none get offended- that Uncharted's postives seemed to be frowned upon in the forums but it seems that Unchartd is allowed on the forums if people are jumping on the band wagon complaining about it.:hmm:

But as I've said before, they should add tension into the game play but they can't cause they have unlimted ammo. I think it sould still be there but perhaps as a reward for doing something. Or let people have the choice!:D

_Love2Raid_
1st Apr 2010, 12:50
I have an idea, they should give her rocks to throw at enemies... A big monster is coming at you and one throw to the head and bang, it's dead... just kidding... ;)

Can't get more old-fashioned than that! :lol:

I don't care which weapons they pick for her arsenal, but the dual pistols have to be a part of it in my opinion. They are perhaps her most important trademark at the moment.

Rexie
1st Apr 2010, 12:56
EDIT: I just realized, that in every post, 'La...ra' has been replaced with 'Laura.'

Nice going... really nice going folks...

pinpal
1st Apr 2010, 21:56
I said gameplay! the 3ps shooter style of games like Uncharted. I used that as an example, other games have gameplay like that. Uncharted wasnt a mess or a crap game, you should be open minded. Uncharted was an incredible game with great gameplay and a fantastic plot. That doesnt mean I dont think TR is amazing. Its possible to like both. How could mentioning Uncharted tick you off? That post makes you sound like an ignorant fan

no you didn't say gameplay in your post, you wrote the most craziest thing I have yet to read on this forum. You wrote, since Uncharted has one pistol so should Laura.:hmm: Just reading that ticked me off. I mean I have both Uncharted games there fun and all but how can you say because one game has this the other game should have it too. It's like saying Spider Man has Webs, so should batman:rolleyes:. You called me an ignorant fan, REALLY you think I am an ignorant fan, i'm not the one saying oh lets take away Laura's dual pistols because Drake only has one and he's so great he makes Laura Croft with her iconic dual pistols look pointless. Listen here Mr. Pulse I'm not mean or anything, You have a right to your opinion. But don't say Idiotic things about tomb raider and don't expect a hardcore tomb raider fan to set you straight:cool:.

LC is Me
2nd Apr 2010, 02:28
Dual pistols: DO WANT.
Lots of weapons: DO WANT TOO.

Yeah, but too many takes away from the challenge.
Enough to just barely get by or make ammo a lot harder to come by

Pulse
4th Apr 2010, 04:25
no you didn't say gameplay in your post, you wrote the most craziest thing I have yet to read on this forum. You wrote, since Uncharted has one pistol so should Laura.:hmm: Just reading that ticked me off. I mean I have both Uncharted games there fun and all but how can you say because one game has this the other game should have it too. It's like saying Spider Man has Webs, so should batman:rolleyes:. You called me an ignorant fan, REALLY you think I am an ignorant fan, i'm not the one saying oh lets take away Laura's dual pistols because Drake only has one and he's so great he makes Laura Croft with her iconic dual pistols look pointless. Listen here Mr. Pulse I'm not mean or anything, You have a right to your opinion. But don't say Idiotic things about tomb raider and don't expect a hardcore tomb raider fan to set you straight:cool:.


They should make it more Uncharted like GAMEPLAY, so only one pistol would be needed. Dual would be completely pointless

I did say gameplay. You proceeded to overreact. When I said gameplay like that, I meant the aiming aspect instead of just holding down the shoot button. Dual pistols could be used in that, but it would be kind of pointless.

Anyway, I want the 3PS aiming style gameplay. And dual pistols would be fine if gameplay went in that direction.

Tombgeek
4th Apr 2010, 07:12
Okay, I am going back to the original debate and rather not contribute to the Tomb Raider vs. Uncharted debate.

Lara without her dual pistols is a silly. When Angel of Darkness did that, most fans (me included) hated it.

1. It made Lara look ridiculous with two gun holsters and she only uses one.

2. Sure, Angel of Darkness was meant to change the series, but you are using a popular videogame icon (the most famous female videogame heroine in history). She is famous for her dual pistols. Lara would not be Lara without her dual pistols.

But that is Angel of Darkness, and plus their was a cheat to get the dual pistols. But to make it permanent...Hell no!
I just think that for 9 games we had dual pistols (including Angel of Darkness with cheats), so why change suddenly? It is just silly.
Also, I can not imagine any other way to fight a group of tigers than with dual pistols. A single pistol? That is ridiculous. I would be eaten before I even killed the first one.

Look, it won't really affect my choice to buy the game if, for some reason, they decide to drop the dual pistol idea. But I just feel that to drop something that contributed to the success of the videogame star, is just silly in my opinion.

Should I or shouldn't I?
Meh...what the hell...
To those who are arguing about Uncharted, I have a few things to say.

Tomb Raider and Uncharted are two different things, yes. But Uncharted still is an adventure game that uses a lot of ideas used in Tomb Raider, and made it better. It is fact.
Uncharted is a brilliant game, and I wish I had a PS3 just to play that game.
Crystal Dynamics can learn a lot from that game, and hopefully use what Uncharted did to make the series better. However, just because Uncharted does not use dual pistols does not mean that Tomb Raider has to now also. I still feel that Lara should keep the dual pistols. Some my argue that you can not use dual pistols behind cover, well...yes you can. It has been done on John Woo's Stranglehold (successfully, might I add).