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IKathaarI
5th Mar 2014, 04:32
---War Bow---

The War bow has lost it's niche since vampires started taking less fall damage. For those who say 'well it's just a support weapon, and still has its uses' No. No matter how 'supportive' the weapon may be, it does not reward you for using it, it punishes you by being weak and slow, meaning you will rarely do significant damage to anyone, which is unfair.

A simple solution to this would be to increase fall damage on vampires by 50-100% if the War Bow is the reason they fall.

---Storm Bow---

This bow is a lie, flat out. It breaks the class barrier on the scout, and tricks vampires. It's a Troll Bow. Because it's delayed damage is so 1-sided (almost 90% of the damage coming from the delayed explosion, 10% from the arrow.) vampires in the heat of a fight do not feel they are in danger due to delayed damage, their health is still at 70%+, they can keep fighting, then suddenly, it's 15% and you're dead before you can escape. Half a vampires mechanics are to be able to dip out of combat when they need to.

As for breaking the class barrier; A Scout should NEVER be able to spam-fire like a Hunter and defeat multiple enemies single-handedly. I've witnessed this countless times, heck, I've done it myself. A scout is designed to keep their distance, force enemies away from them and take them out from range. The Storm Bow negates all of that and makes the Scout deadly at ALL ranges.

A fix for this would be to move the damage away from the explosion (40% arrow/60% explosion) This would keep vampires from being so easily mislead on their HP and force Scouts back into their class role.

cmstache
5th Mar 2014, 04:49
The War Bow is the ONLY reason vampires take fall damage. That being said, It's still effective @ 600 damage per charged shot. The War Bow isn't effective currently because teams aren't together, where they can punish players.


I think the Storm Bow is OK where it is damage-wise. I WOULD like to see a slight rate of fire nerf though.

IKathaarI
5th Mar 2014, 05:24
I completely disagree, 600 doesn't warrant that long charge time + tunnelvision, it still needs an increase in fall damage, not as severe as before, but more then it is currently.

Storm Bow needs a fire rate nerf, or an ammo nerf, one of the two would work, but it still needs it's damage reallocated.

cmstache
5th Mar 2014, 15:13
I've seen it with the higher fall damage, and it's insanely too much. With the range you get with a War Bow you should NEVER be able to do 700-850 damage with a single shot. With fall damage up a single scout can lock down 4 solid sentinel players (I've seen it done myself) alone. This isn't the kind of game for that. There should NEVER be a situation where 1v4 is viable, it's already an issue sometimes for 2v1 situations.

I can see maybe giving the WB it's 5th shot in it's clip back, but that's about it. It really has found it's niche well in team played matches.

Tagexx
5th Mar 2014, 17:56
I agree with the points about the stormbow. However, I believe the fall damage to vampires should be increased slightly, not to the values it used to be, but with the current fall damage I no longer feel the incentive to go for the harder shots for vampire mid jump, as the fall damage is not rewarding enough. Also, if a one scout with warbow locks down 4 sentinel players alone, then they are definitely not "solid" sentinels. It is true that it's main advantages come in a team fight, which rarely happens at such heights that would render slight fall damage increase game breaking, and scouts should be rewarded for landing harder shots with the slowest bow, and vampires more punished for being careless if a war bow is against them. Also, I'd like to know where you get that 600 damage from, as it is 400, second lowest of the bows.

Oroibahazopi
5th Mar 2014, 18:05
Name another skill that can knockdown every 3.5 seconds. People will eventually get totally different fov and sensitivity set ups specifically for abusing the absurd amount of CC you can get from it. Right now WB sucks because there is no team play.

Stormbow's dps is only 2 dps different from the composite bow, the aoe is traded off against the lack of close range utility and it's much more punishing if you miss. People don't notice this since games are mostly feeding and attrition atm, no skills.

k8Faust
5th Mar 2014, 18:25
The War Bow is the ONLY reason vampires take fall damage. That being said, It's still effective @ 600 damage per charged shot. The War Bow isn't effective currently because teams aren't together, where they can punish players.


I think the Storm Bow is OK where it is damage-wise. I WOULD like to see a slight rate of fire nerf though.

I don't see where you've gotten the 600 damage from; I use the Warbow the majority of the time I play, and I exclusively play Sentinel/Scout. A fully charged shot from the Warbow will do less than half a Vamp's health; it takes two charged shots and then some to score a kill. Even in the store, the damage is reported to be 400. That's 800, with the fall damage I've seen? Hardly 1000 damage. I have to follow up a charged shot (400 damage) with 3 rapid shots (615 damage) to really put the hurt on (1015 damage). The Warbow, on its own, is frustrating as is. With Tinkerer, it becomes much more bearable.

The highest fall damage I've seen is around 60-70 (don't usually pay attention to this since the damage is negligible).

That said, I'm not in favor of increased fall* damage for the Warbow. Instead, I'd like to see increased utility, which I've detailed in another post (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=10736).

I agree with nerfing ROF on the Stormbow. Going by current stats, it can dump a full clip (175 on hit, 900 AoE) in just 4 seconds. It can do double that in 9.5 seconds (1.5 second reload). By the time a Vamp takes damage from the first explosion, he could already have a full clip dumped on him. By the time he makes his escape, the Stormbow is ready to resume fire. God forbid there be two Scouts with Stormbows, because the overlapping AoE could decimate the entire enemy team.

So, yes, I say nerf Fire Rate to 1.2 and reload speed to 1.75 (like the Warbow).

And/Or! Give it the lowest ammo count--I guess 24, since there seems to be the recurring theme of 6 clips--and decrease clip size by 1. That would cap potential AoE damage per clip to 720 (860 with damage on hit).

Edit: fall damage, not damage.

Khalith
5th Mar 2014, 18:29
That said, I'm not in favor of increased damage for the Warbow. Instead, I'd like to see increased utility, which I've detailed in another post (http://forums.eu.square-enix.com/showthread.php?t=10736).

I agree with nerfing ROF on the Stormbow. Going by current stats, it can dump a full clip (175 on hit, 900 AoE) in just 4 seconds. It can do double that in 9.5 seconds (1.5 second reload). By the time a Vamp takes damage from the first explosion, he could already have a full clip dumped on him. By the time he makes his escape, the Stormbow is ready to resume fire. God forbid there be two Scouts with Stormbows, because the overlapping AoE could decimate the entire enemy team.

If anything I think the warbow should be weaker in damage with a shorter charge as a trade off for the stun. Give it a 3 second charge and cut a fully charge shot to 300-350 at close range.

The storm bow is already getting nerfed, they're moving the damage more to the shot than the explosion, psyonix already stated as such so that should bring the bow more in line, a change I am all in favor of.

Oroibahazopi
5th Mar 2014, 18:36
Stormbow does 210 on a hit. It's dps is the same as the composite bow, it has the lowest damage per clip of the dps bows already. The only thing you could conceivably complain about is the aoe, but that is only useful in the melees where vampires are bunched up and you are as likely to damage yourself as you are to get good aoe shots. Shooting at the floor to hit around corners does negligible damage, and vampires getting constantly hit by it are stupid.

To me it just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it over the warbow, if you think the dps is low use another bow.

cmstache
5th Mar 2014, 18:49
I get 600 damage from 400+fall damage, from the maximum height before a sentinel can cancel the fall. Used to be 750 damage, which is insane. The War Bow isn't about damage, it's about stuns. It has charge damage + fall damage + stun + ability interruption. If there is a single weapon in the game that doesn't need a buff it's the War Bow. The ONLY way I'd be OK with a fall damage buff is to reduce the stun duration, specifically the time a sentinel needs to recover and resume flight. It's one thing to get caught climbing a wall as a reaver and take 400+125 fall damage, it's entirely different to be flying building height as a sentinel (which isn't even that high) and take 397+280 fall damage, and there's jack crap you can do about it. Or how about a Tyrant caught jumping, a shot that's honestly not that hard to make, and take 400+480 damage? I don't care how hard a shot is, in this game nobody deserves to be smacked for 800+ damage for a single hit.

Enrage tyrants do it, but that's through using multiple abilities. They can't do it again for 20 seconds, whereas the warbow can do it almost immediately. This also doesn't take into effect the other scout or two that just saw you fall and decide to pelt you for more damage, or even worse another War Bow charged shot. The Alpha players saw this kind of crap happen every day, and it's unplayable. A good War Bow user with a coordinated team can shut down an entire team of vampires from half the map away and still bank a 1,400 pt score from almost solely assists.



The Storm Bow doesn't punish misses as much due to the splash hitting a vampire close by. It's a trade-off though for taking self-splash up close, a trade-off that isn't taken very seriously at the moment. Honestly, if they gave the shooting player more damage, say around 75% splash damage I'd be OK with the rest of the values they currently are. I personally would prefer a faster detonation time too.

Hugbringer
5th Mar 2014, 19:01
I don't think fall damage should be increased. Previously as a sent or tyrant mid leap, you could get charged shot, another shot on the way down and than the fall damage. I don't remember the numbers, but that was just too good as you were usually dead before the stand animation even started. Getting charge shot and the susequent tumble is almost certain death even now as most other humans will chase you down. If you want to do damage fast, use a quick bow.

It feels fine now and ive seen it put to good use. Its annoying to me as a sent player, I don't ignore it but don't feel screwed if I get hit by it. Means its about perfect to me

IKathaarI
7th Mar 2014, 02:16
I still think the fall damage needs to be raised, not nearly as high s it was before, but currently it's not enough unless you managed to nail a sent flying at ceiling height (which none do)

I'm glad the stormbow is getting reworked, should make it more in line with the other bows, but i still think a fire rate or clip size nerf would be needed, i guess we'll see after the patch.

cmstache
7th Mar 2014, 03:36
I really think most people are spoiled from the high dmg in alpha, it really is more balanced this way.

Razaiim
7th Mar 2014, 03:38
I feel all bows are good where they are except the Stormbow, and I think with psyonix adjusting the damage split between explosion and arrow to about 60/40 from the about 85/15 split it currently has, that could very well be enough

math for truth: 400 explode + 75 hit damage = 475, 400/475 x100% =84.2% damage done by explosion, 15.8% done by arrow.
patched: 475*0.6 = 285 damage from explode, 475*.4=190 from arrow

IKathaarI
8th Mar 2014, 02:56
I really think most people are spoiled from the high dmg in alpha, it really is more balanced this way.

Well I actually never used the War Bow in Alpha as my fps wasn't high enough to play a scout, so i mained alchemist. So if someone who has NO previous experience with the War Bow is saying that it isn't worth the downsides to using it, then obviously there is something wrong.

hirukaru
8th Mar 2014, 03:32
Well I actually never used the War Bow in Alpha as my fps wasn't high enough to play a scout, so i mained alchemist. So if someone who has NO previous experience with the War Bow is saying that it isn't worth the downsides to using it, then obviously there is something wrong.

Warbow requires some training. The downside is nothing compare to positive points of the bow. As Stache mentioned somewhere it is great in a awesome team.

Oroibahazopi
8th Mar 2014, 08:11
Well I actually never used the War Bow in Alpha as my fps wasn't high enough to play a scout, so i mained alchemist. So if someone who has NO previous experience with the War Bow is saying that it isn't worth the downsides to using it, then obviously there is something wrong.
Yes you need to practise more.

agile2015
10th Apr 2014, 12:30
With fall damage up a single scout can lock down 4 solid sentinel players (I've seen it done myself) alone. This isn't the kind of game for that. There should NEVER be a situation where 1v4 is viable, it's already an issue sometimes for 2v1 situations.


sentinel versus 4 alchs is viable 1v4, no?